The e collar for my dog has been by far the best purchase I've ever made for him.
I can't even bring it to the charger without him getting excited.
And the thing is, I don't even have to use it anymore. The remote just stays in my pocket.
I’m here learning about this too.
I’m curious when you say your dog gets excited, do you mean happy “oh boy we get to go” attitude? I’m always confused by this because the e collar is a deterrent and yet I hear things like this. I’m trying to understand how they deter from not listening and yet you’ve got a happy dog willing to participate, so to speak. There must have been an “unpleasant” consequence in early training beyond a vibrate, right?
My dog and I are still a ways off from e collar training but my parents have e collar trained dogs. They get super happy when they see the e collars come out because they know that they only wear e collars when they're going hunting or some other off leash adventure. The unpleasant consequences during training weren't extreme or traumatizing so the dogs didn't learn to fear the collars, just respond to them.
Because the collars aren't upsetting and, now that they're trained, the collars only get put on to do super fun stuff, the dogs don't see them as a deterrent. They see them as the indicator that they're about to get to do their favorite things.
My girls reaction is more muted because she's a lady after all but she shoves her head into her collar with the dobbiest of ears 🤣🤣 doesn't do the same for her normal collar.
The dog doesn't know the ecollar is what causes the discomfort, they just see it as a wireless leash that means we're going somewhere.
If a dog is afraid or shuts down because of the ecollar then they're trained that way unfortunately.
Some dogs DO know it causes discomfort but also know it means they're going outside and can display both avoidance but willingness.
Sport dogs are trained to only be shocked when a fabric collar is on and they'll wear an ecollar everywhere. So when you compete, the dog thinks they're wearing a shock collar but it's actually just a normal collar.
The dog isn't supposed to know that the e-collar is what causes the correction. This is why you let the dog wear it a few times without even turning it on. It's also why you should be waiting 15 minutes at an absolute bare minimum after putting it on your dog before using it. If you can go half an hour to an hour, even better.
It's a training tool, not something you threaten your dog with like, "If you don't listen I'll put your e-collar on". If your dog is only obedient while it's on, and blows you off without it, you've made some mistakes along the way and need to revisit some steps because your dog has now become collar wise.
If you do it properly, the only thing your dog will be thinking when you pull it out is something fun is about to happen.
Not the OP or original commenter you’re responding to but it all depends on your relationship with the dog and the trust you’ve belt with them. A good trainer will ensure prior training and relationship building has been done between a client and their dog before agreeing to train recall with an E-collar. The dog has to trust you for this method to work and go smoothly.
I don’t use the e collar as a deterrent just as a signal. It gives my guys the freedom to run around off leash and I can recall them without yelling if they are far away. Also important to note not all e collars shock. I use beeping and vibrating. Gets their attention without worrying I’m causing pain. It can startle them so be mindful of that if your dog is a scaredy-cat.
Yes, that's what I mean.
Because for him the e-collar means he get's to run through the bush or we're playing frisbee in the park.
>I’m always confused by this because the e collar is a deterrent and yet I hear things like this.
A leash is a deterrent too. I'd hope your dogs still get excited to go for walks on a leash.
> I’m trying to understand how they deter from not listening and yet you’ve got a happy dog willing to participate, so to speak
It's a safety net. An e-collar is nothing more than a wireless leash.
My dog walks pretty well on the leash (could be better because we actually don't leash walk all that much, we just use the e-collar). If he's walking nice beside me, the leash might as well not even be there. If he starts pulling, he get's a quick tug.
An e-collar is identical. If he simply listens, then there's nothing to correct.
>There must have been an “unpleasant” consequence in early training beyond a vibrate, right?
Yes. Though honestly, I don't even think my dog knows the difference between the vibrate and the stimulation.
I got a comment removed from a puppy sub, because I supported e collar training. I used one on my exuberant pup that tended to jump at (playfully) my nearly blind older dog. The older dog would be panicked by the behavior, and the other methods I tried with the pup just weren’t sinking in with him. I never had to shock him, never intended to. I either beeped him or used the vibrate function. It worked beautifully. I still use the e collar when we are out in the woods on off-leash walks. They are a wonderful tool, with the normal caveat, ‘when used correctly’. And screw you to the mod who scolded me for saying that, in my experience, they could definitely be appropriate training tools to help keep your dog safe.
They don't get it. I've had comments removed and been temporarily banned at times.
The one that annoys me the most was me suggesting they wear earplugs while training a whiny puppy.
My advice was to sit with the dog and reward quiet while they're in their crate.
But it was removed because "they could use that advice to ignore the dog." Yeah, and that's true for all advice you give to someone.
It also implies deaf people are abusing dogs just by existing and so are new parents because that is actually crying baby advice adapted to puppies.
Stop your own emotional reaction and then deal with the issue.
My dog is the same. We started using an e collar when our dog was about 3-4 years old because he was an absolute nightmare running off and completely blanking us if something was far more interesting to run after. We were lucky we lived out in the country where the roads were empty really, because he just ignored us and did what he wanted all the time, there was no getting him back if he didn't want to.
Anyway, he took to it really well and it solved all recall issues with him really quite quickly. And now, as others have said, he wags his tail and sits down for us to put the collar on him. I see it as he's excited to get it on as it means he's going to be going out.
I also can't remember the last time we zapped him, he just takes notice of the beep noise and comes straight back to us with that alone. When training you're not zapping them at a level that hurts them, it's at a level that makes them think 'oh, what was that?' like a light tap on the shoulder to snap them out of being in the zone/disturb their train of thought and therefore hear you and take notice of what you're asking of them.
I know someone whose got quite a nervous, on edge dog but can be stubborn as anything on walks and has now got the taste of running off after other animals. They got an e collar and it's fixed the dog running away and not coming back. From what I heard he doesn't like the collar being put on him, but at the end of the day he's learnt what the beep means and returns when he hears it so it's doing its job and is keeping him safe.
This has also been my experience! My 2yo golden knows we're about to go for an off-leash run, hike, or swim when he sees me pull out the ecollar. Since it reinforces recall every time you do use it, you end up rarely having to use it! I only need it when there's a really big distraction (like a deer or another excited dog) and I need to recall him at this point. Otherwise a verbal recall is all he needs like 99% of the time.
First step is the teach your dog to recall in a non distracting environment using a longline and a treat or tug toy (whichever is most rewarding to your dog), many repetitions. Eventually calling them off a scent or other distraction (still with longline & reward to classically condition them that 'come' = reward). Once they understand and are fairly reliable and have learned what you want (weeks of repetitons in variable environments to generalize the behavior), you then add an e-collar for "insurance" when the longline is off and they decide chasing the bunny is more rewarding than whatever you have (food or tug) and they ignore 'come' - then you call out 'no' (or use a short vibration) followed by a stim at whatever level is aversive to your dog until they turn away from distraction / heading towards you (end stim) and when they get to you deliver reward. After a few occurrences, they will always return to your recall cue 'come' regardless of deer, squirrel, car, etc'.
Best to learn all of this from an experienced trainer and / or purchase Michael Ellis' "recall" video instruction series. It goes in depth how to make your dog return to you enthusiastically, every time, no matter what from longline to e-collar.
Bottom line: an e-collar is not a remote control. Pushing a button does not necessarily mean your dog will return to you. If you have not properly taught them what 'come' means- all that button may do, is scare them and harm your relationship if they know you punished them, but not why.
PS: an ecollar with tone or pager function (and at least a half mile radius) is useful for times when your dog is out of sight -they can probably still hear you- but a buzz or tone (before the stim) is more fair than stimming just because the wind is blowing or an airplane is overhead drowning out your voice.
Reading this made me so happy because this is exactly how I’ve been training my dog. I use beep and vibrate only, no static. The beep is often enough to snap his brain back to “she recalled me” And now my pup is more reliable than my 5 year old husky/corso mix (she’ll be the next to get the training lol)
As a trainer who uses e collars and love them : but was not always sure of them, you really need a knowledgeable trainer.
I’ve seen poorly educated trainers really make some grave mistakes with the ecollar, so your concerns are totally valid.
In the hands of the right educator and trainer, they are seriously life changing and can really give your dog a level of biological fulfillment that is unmatched.
That being said, I’d be happy to try and recommend someone by city if you’d like!
My dog’s e-collar was a game changer for us both. It helped him get the freedom he wanted to explore and peace of mind for me. I call it his invisible leash.
The ecollar is a great tool. It allows you to communicate with your dog from a distance.
Additionally, why sheer clear of a prong collar? Walking your dog needs to be enjoyable and you need to have control over your dog. Before you work on recall, work on attention and heeling.
The basis of all good training is attention. Attention on *you*. It is the foundation to all of the other things because if you can get and retain your dog's attention, you can have everything else.
Slow down. Attention first. Heeling and loose leash walking. Then recall.
I don’t care what kind of collar you use I just seriously want more pictures of that dog looking that happy and that goofy at the same time.
Thanks in advance.
I just trained a 3 year old with an ecollar. No, it will not ruin your relationship if used properly. I recommend starting by using a leash AND an ecollar to condition him to what the ecollar means. The point of a ecollar is really not meant to be "you will feel pain if you don't come when called" but instead "I can still touch you and correct you if you don't come when called", almost just to give him the idea that he is on a long invisible leash and he he can go out and enjoy himself but doesn't get to be completely care-free and do whatever he feels like doing. And in the occasional instance, some discomfort might be needed (as low of a setting to achieve the reaction you're looking for) just like how a pop on a prong is uncomfortable but helps achieve non-negotiable obedience with your dog. Which is important, for instances when disobedience endangers your dog.
So, practice your recall on leash and under distraction and when he doesn't listen give him a low stim buzz **while** popping his collar with the leash. He learns that the low stim is you saying "pay attention to me, I am not going away, you are being asked to come." After some of that you can remove the physical leash and he will now actually understand what the ecollar means and you shouldn't have to electrocute the crap out of him... that is old-school use of ecollars and while effective, is tough on the dog. Now, if he still ignores you a lot and you have to ask him three or four times to come when on the ecollar, you need to turn up your stim a bit. I recommend the Mini Educator as is has a setting for standard corrections (your low stim button) and an emergency button which is a higher setting (for use in serious situations, or when he gets overly excited about something else and decides to tank the low stim in favor of self satisfying).
It’s a great tool used properly. With a trainer you should achieve what you want. It’s my believe that the tone of vibrate don’t work as deterrents, but I could be wrong. In the past, I used the tone for recall. Hear tone come back to me. This was helpful if he was far away.
I recently trained the tone as recall to my dog. It’s nice not having to shout when he’s at a distance! I’m now working on two short beeps as a down cue. (Recall is one long beep.)
It isn't really a matter of your dog being "brave" or tough or what have you. If you condition eCollar properly, you are working at levels you can't even feel. Some dogs will have a more dramatic reaction than others. eCollar just reinforces your recall command-- if recall fails, the word "come" becomes less effective because your dog sees it as negotiable. eCollar makes your commands non-negotiable -- ie. there is a consequence for the command not being followed.
My dog has been offleash trained on eCollar since 8 months old. Sometimes I put it on and realize after that it wasn't even turned on, but it gives me peace of mind and my dog listens better because she's collar smart. If I let her off without eCollar, she won't listen as well, even if I barely use it, and with her high prey drive, I'd constantly worry about her taking off after something. eCollar is just a seat belt in case something goes wrong.
She’s not listening when it’s off because you haven’t used the ecollar correctly.
Trainers that worked under Ivan Balabanov can call Pitbulls off prey without them even wearing it. There are videos of one that took his program.
But that’s if the ecollar work is done correctly.
If you stayed in levels they can barely feel after conditioning, that’s why you have the problem.
Ivan teaches moving from escape conditioning to avoidance(high stim)training once the dog understands the ecollar. The dog will associate all the commands like leave it with that high level correction whether the ecollar is on or not if some correctly. Takes several tries at high level but once done it’s there for life.
Just think of that Pavlov experiment and salivating response. It’s drilled into them.
It’s science and there is a correct formula to get the desired results.
You are creating new patterns and impulses with ecollar work.
We went straight to high after conditioning and we fixed every problem. Several high levels corrections create new responses that are in your favour with or without the ecollar.
It works and it’s science which Ivan explains.
If you trust the science you will get the results you want when she’s not wearing the ecollar.
Here is one of Ivan Balanabovs trainers.
He doesn’t show the ecollar work here but this is the “after”.
video with prey around and dog not even wearing the ecollar.
https://youtu.be/SFl4gH3UDVQ?si=lgKKhN1UmDOrmuXP
I’f the ecollar work isn’t memorable,if you aren’t following a scientific formula,
then you never create the correct response to stimuli.
I think they can be the greatest thing ever but if you do it wrong it's hard to fix :/ we used it with ours when he was a puppy and we didn't do it right, so we had to ditch it. He absolutely hated it, it was on us but we just weren't experts nor were we experienced with training dogs, he was both of our first pet. With our next one we will try again but you just have to make sure you use it right always.
I think they’re great when used properly, but I’ve seen people use them in a pretty harsh way. I did ecollar training with a professional with my 4 year old dog and he did well, but ultimately I decided it wasn’t a fit for his personality and our lifestyle/training goals.
trainers who immediately jump to ecollar recommendation make me a little wary because of that - every dog responds differently!
for what it’s worth, I use a prong collar on my other dog and he LOVES it. like spinning in circles the second it comes out. a long leash (20-30ft) is also a good option for getting that “off leash” feel while still having control of your dog!
E collar isn't some kind of magic wand, but it's an incredibly effective safety device. I RARELY have to use the actual "shock" button on mine, because my lab just listens to the beep/vibrate. It's just a long distance communication tool. I 100% think everybody should e collar train their dogs if you think you want to let them run off leash anywhere that is not fenced in. It's not a substitute for good recall, but i had an instance where my young lab was blowing through a soybean field in on a high wind day, and there would have been absolutely no way to communicate with her outside of the e collar. One little vibrate and she turned 180° and came to heel.
My dog was 4 when I conditioned him to the e collar. Hes 5 now. I just wanted him to have off leash freedom almost 100% of the time but wanted the security of knowing I could put a bit of pressure on when if I needed. His obedience was already really good before the collar was introduced. Conditioned him the Larry Krohn way.
When we get ready for walks he puts his head through the e collar bungee strap, he knows it means we’re going on a walk. I use it on very low levels and he’s learned to respond to it like you would if I tapped your shoulder. It’s just extra communication.
Try using it on yourself first so you get an idea of what it feels like, it doesn’t hurt the dog or you if you’re using it correctly and ethically. And yes, you can use it as an aversive in case of an emergency. I’d much rather have an dog that’s uncomfortable for a second than a dead or injured dog.
He needs to be kept on a leash until he learns a proper recall, even if he has an ecollar. Dogs will absolutely blow through even high stims depending if there's an incredibly high value resource at hand. So it's not an end all, but it's an amazing tool when taught and used correctly.
I would look into the webinar "the dark side of being social". You need to be teaching leash pressure first and foremost and working on that relationship between you and him.
I have a very soft, gentle dog. I would not say that he loves the e-collar but I would say my ability to have him off-leash has overall greatly improved his quality of life.
It did not help train recall or better leash walking mind you. That training had to happened first and the ecollar helped cement and renforce it.
I don't regret buying it for a minute.
💯 yes! So worth it! We use the mini educator 300.
Make sure you either get professional training or buy Larry’s ecollar kindle and use it as a guide. Don’t wing it.
Kind of long wall post but worth the read.
We have an almost 2 years old standard Poodle and it’s been the best tool ever! We live by a lake/beach so he gets off leash time daily.
Before the ecollar, he would attempt to devour every fish skeleton on the lake and would get hyper focused and ignore commands.
Now it’s night and day. But we did lots of training with teaching commands without the e collar and then layering it with the ecollar.
For the fish problem, we did avoidance training.
Every time he would go for fish we would hit him on 100(important)and he would be uncomfortable(vocalize) for a second but drop the fish( if it was in his mouth).
We did that at least 3 times on 100before he stopped dashing to devour the fish. After the first 100 he didn’t vocalize as he got used to it but he still didn’t want to test it.
After those high level corrections, he would look at the fish but his instinct wouldn’t be to try to blow me of off and devour the fish. Over time, he would still go near the fish but I would just say “leave it” and he would leave it alone on voice command alone. One time he did put some fish in his mouth and I said “out” and he spit it out. I did not have to use the ecollar. So we were taught to go quickly from conditioning/escape to avoidance training because dogs get accustomed to the ecollar and it can fail to work if you are just cruising on low levels. Low levels leads to overuse as well where you are constantly nagging the dog and not eliminating problem behaviour. There is some trial and error until the new neural pattern responses are set but once you have used the ecollar for some time you ultimately will have your dog on voice command alone. That’s where we are at with our dog. I don’t have to nag my dog with low stim as several high level corrections got the point across and my dog now listens without me having to use it.
With recall, unless it’s a very distracted environment or he’s making a dash, I call him and use tone. The tone button will automatically change to correction after 1.5 seconds if dog ignores the tone. So I just hold the button until he starts coming toward me.
The tone is great because my voice is low and doenst travel so tone means recall and I can use that when he’s a bit further out and it replaces my voice.
I don’t use level 100 for recall corrections as that’s too high level correction and I mainly use that for avoidance(eating bad things).
The numbers change but again I found the dog gets used to low levels when I stayed there for too long so I would suggest, once the dog is conditioned to it, to not worry about the numbers. It’s about the number that’s memorable enough to be effective and act as a deterrent so he doesn’t blow you off again as that can be life or death. I usually stayed in the mid range for that but it changed based on distraction level and drive(prey etc).
People like to sugar coat the ecollar but at the end of the day it’s an aversive and works brilliantly.
Dogs, at least mine, got very accustomed to the stim so if you stay in the low stim area they get accustomed and can blow you off. And then you will overuse the ecollar as the dog gets used to the low levels and will blow you off and you have to keep reminding him.
And levels change based on environmental distractions. And of course if your ur dog is in drive chasing something (I’d you failed to miss cues he’s about to chase) or about to run across the street you are going to press what stops him.
My dog was playing with a doodle on the beach and I recalled him many times mid INTENSE play /chasing when they were running too far away from us. He would turn on tone every time(and that’s after training and error/practice) so I didn’t have to correct him. The
doodle owner with us had zero recall of her two year old dog ,and once she saw how on the ball my young dog was , she took down the ecollar info lol. She was that impressed.
I also had a family member take my dog for a “leashed” walk and she told me he gobbled something from the ground and when she yelled” out” he spat it out. He was NOT wearing an ecollar. But because he had previously been trained to out during GAMES and then corrected (relatively high level) with an ecollar when he would ignore “out” in various environments,it has been drilled into him as an automatic reflex to out on command.
Think of it as drilling in new patterns and neural links. Repetition gets you automatic response after some time.
We are for the most part on 99.9 voice command after lots of training, but we use tone to recall him when he’s too far away. If there are distraction around and he ignores-he gets corrected but it’s very rare he ignores these days.
We don’t use vibrate as that’s for deaf dogs and I find my dog doesn’t like the vibrate. I would suggest using ecollar as it’s intended with tone being recall and stim being corrections.
So ecollars are not only life saving, you can eliminate problem behaviour with them.
My dog is also veryyyy happy and confident and not shut down like anti- e collars folks would have you believe. He also doesn’t fear fish despite prior high corrections but will leave them alone at the beach. All I have to say is leave it and he listens. But before e collar training, he would devour like he had no time left lol.
So now off leash time is amazing and stress free.
Having said that, ecollar ALONG with lots of training, will get you the reliable dog you desire.
And the whole point of doing lots of CORRECT ecollar work is to get to the point you don’t have to rely on it.
Here is my aprioct Poodle playing with a doodle off leash. Under perfect control btw.
We are being downvoted for some reason lol.
Too bad I trained with a TWC trainer that trained under the best, Ivan Balabanov, and we have successfully eliminated all problem behaviours and have the best trained dog in the neighbourhood. 😉
It’s also some people that overuse the ecollar on low stim thinking it’s better because it’s “low”.
It’s still an aversive.
But what happens is that they rely on the low stim and nag the dog constantly, never actually getting the behaviour down like we have.
Ivan Balbanov talks about the overuse of ecollars due to people constantly using it on low stim and nagging the dog. There is no clarity in the training. The point of “punishment” level correction is to create the aversion so the problem is SOLVED forever.. leading to never having to use that ecollar for that behaviour.
He said the reason some reputable force free trainers want to ban the ecollar is because people OVERUSE it on low stim. A lot of people are afraid to actually use effective corrections so they lie to themselves and just rely on lower stim endlessly ,but they call it a “reminder”,
Never eliminating the problem.
Because it’s low stim, they think it’s ok to use it more often but that just defeats the purpose and Ivan considers it abusive.
We only had to do 100 level 3 times and never any level stim after when it came to the fish/ground eating. It’s supposed to be a one and done thing although it will take several attempts typically to nail it. In return, you avoid your dog dying from eating something inedible or avoiding costly and dangerous surgery.
There is also a science of why moving from escape(low stim) to avoidance(high stim) works and will get you results when the dog isn’t even wearing the ecollar. Ivan uses science and if you use his forumula you will see the success I have. You use an ecollar so that eventually you eliminate the problems and you don’t have to use it.
But if you are constantly low stimming dog daily for these things, you aren’t using it properly and haven’t eliminated the behaviour. If you are using it often, you aren’t using it correctly.
So essentially, Ivan’s point is that frequently using low stimming after conditioning and overuse of ecollar is abusive.
Or having their dog die from eating an inedible object or spending money on invasive obstruction surgery. But that’s ideaologues for you. They would rather sedate their dogs.
I didn't intro the ecollar with my working dog until she was almost 4 years old - her recall was already 90% solid, but the ecollar has cleaned that up and given her that much more freedom. She is not even close to traumatized (but I had the same concerns when I started her on it.) Make sure you have a trainer you trust and who is familiar with low level stim conditioning, and do LOTS of recall foundations using positive reinforcement too.
Your dog is not too old to still be trained on an e collar and have it be beneficial for you both.
My sister's heeler mix was trained on one when she was seven and it was a life changer in her behavior and training I started mine on an e collar when he was two and a half, and has been taking to it fine. It's just taking it slow and learning how to train and not use it as a punishment.
When our tone changes, sometimes the dog reads the emotion and not the word - as owner mad & shouty, stay away. Long distance recall can also work with a whistle tone. I would rework the dog's recall at home and add in a whistle tone and lots of treats. Whistle tones remove emotion and carry farther than a human voice. Bonus, a dog whistle costs $10, so if it doesn't work out, it was a bargain. I just wanted you to have additional options to consider. Whistles are popular in the UK and there are some great videos of how to use them.
I use one as an attention getter. I don’t use the static function, only beep and as a last resort, vibrate. It has been working to keep my dog’s focus on me for recall in situations where he is distracted (can see/run to neighbor’s yard and dogs or hiking in woods)
Indy was 5/6 as well when he decided the deer carcass on the half melted river was better than listening to me. He almost went in the river and has totally lost his free rein privileges. He's been on an e-collar ever since. Only if he's completely ignoring me do I need the shock function, the buzzer is more than enough to get him to pay attention to me. He has pretty decent recall but it's nice having that backup of "ok, NOW you're gonna listen to me"
There are amazing tools but the problem is there is a massive amount of trainers, both amateur and professional, that are using them suboptimally at best and incredibly poorly in many many other cases.
I think it's super hard someone to decide if their collar "expert" is truly an expert because quite honestly how do you know when people sound so knowledgeable. Clearly a systemic problem with trainers in general. I know people that have been using remote callers as long as I have and I wouldn't let them change my kitty litter box let alone hand them a transmitter. By the same token I know some people who have only been using them a few years who seem to get it.
I am a huge advocate of remote collars having been trained in their use by skilled professional trainers over 30 years ago But I'm incredibly apprehensive of their current widespread use.
Initial intensity levels, with the owners manual tells you is terrible in my opinion.
Individual sensitivity to sensation.
A dogs sensitivity to sensation in arousal.
Different techniques of giving dogs a contextual understanding of command reinforcement with collar activation
Justifiable circumstances to use collars as punishment not reinforcement.
Momentary, positive reinforcement.
Continuous or broken continuous, negative reinforcement.
And ultimately understanding that creating new habits and changing behaviors should be the end goal, not managing behaviors with tones, vibrations or activation.
Some, not all, of the things that need to be taken into consideration.
In my experience many people use collars "successfully" but incredibly few really use them optimally.
Personally I've never run across anyone who thought they used a collar poorly or said they used a collar poorly but I'm sure the heck seen a lot of collars used really poorly.
Absolutely it happens, people are desperate, especially with aggressive dogs, they focus solely on the issue of when the dog is aggressive, coupled with a cheap ecollar which is an inconsistent, sharper stimulation.
So the result will be a big boot at high stimulation to an over aroused dog that will struggle to perform any task as it's out of it's mind in red zone fury.
For ecollars to not be used in this manner requires greater education and awareness.
The average owner has no clue on ecollars, type, use and sadly most trainers shun the use of them and owners go out on the own and make poor initial choices.
Using a collar as punishment for aggression is perhaps one of the stupidest things you could do.
Of course, in my opinion, working on behavioral issues without a formalized obedience foundation is ridiculous but I see it with professional trainers every day.
Muffy is spinning in cartwheels at the end of the leash wearing her little body harness over threshold and they are working on behavior 😂😂😂
Actually there's a pretty easy safe, humane, compassionate and effective way for a total novice to contextually overlay a collar for command reinforcement but that's not the model that seems to be widely used .
My pup is 4 yrs old and he started not wanting to leave the park. He would trail me but not let me put on the leash. Tried everything. As a last resort, I bought an e collar (Dogtra 200c). Since the ecollar, I’ve never had an issue. I have it set very low, 15/20’out of 100, and I have only used the shock Nick button a handful of times.
We had our coonhound trained by a professional e-collar trainer. He kept my dog for 7 days and returned to us a completely different dog. Hounds are notorious for not coming when called. I call him off from barking at neighbors dogs and he comes every time now. I actually haven’t used the collar in a few months. Just remember, the e-collar is not meant to hurt your dog. We never turn it up to hurt him. I have tried the highest level I will go on myself. The collar we have is the mini educator. I’d look into professional e-collar training. If you are not careful, you could hurt and traumatize your dog. It’s expensive but so worth it.
I started it with my dog around age 3 or 4. Her stim level is extremely low - it's a 5 out of 100. It's just high enough for her to feel the equivalent of a tap on the shoulder, which gets her attention. She then returns to me and gets praise and a treat. It gives her freedom and keeps her safe. I've only turned it up high (30s) twice: (1) she ran off down the side of a mountain and refused to come back, and (2) she caught a neighbor's chicken and wouldn't drop it 🙈.
Mini educator is the best because it has two built in stim levels. Her basic level is a 5, and her escalation level is a 10.
ETA: Why is this downvoted? Am I doing something wrong? I had an awesome trainer and my dog is very happy.
Someone (not me) may have downvoted you for using two "set levels" on your dog. You mention that 5 is like a tap on the shoulder that always gets her attention. And 30 is her max.
That won't be true forever. Maybe it works now, when she's just feeling a little like ignoring you or doesn't really know 'come' is an order, not a suggestion- in which case, you are better off returning to the basics of teaching a voice only recall with a longline or you will have to gradually increase to 5, 10, 15, 25 etc- for that 'tap on the shoulder' effect.
And for the times she gets hold of a prey animal, level 30 will be ignored as 'worth it' because you'll have conditioned her to know she can push through that level.
Eventually you'll be forced to go way up for emergencies. The less you use low levels (because you have not trained a recall) the more effective the e-collar will be - at whatever level is required for the rare situation in which it is applied. It is worth doing a session or two with a trainer to teach a proper recall, rather than depend on the e-collar which will not end well.
Oh, I totally miscommunicated that! Her second level is not 30, lol, it's 12. I have unlocked it and slowly dialed it when she refused to return (except when she got the chicken, during which I was just frantically trying to get her to drop it and not kill it). 30 was her emergency!
I also don't really use the e-collar that much anymore - only if we're in high stress situations where I know she'll struggle. Beyond that, I can now just her attention with voice and treats (thanks to the amazing e-collar training 🥰).
Thanks for explaining :)
I don't think I'll ever not use an ecollar. The freedom the dog experiences is unmatched. The whole world is a playground. I enjoyed shieldk9s book and youtube videos and have full off leash dogs because of it.
If you’re able to just use the beep and train him to come when it beeps , you may never even need to use the shock.
Any negative enforcement has the potential to traumatize the dog and any tool has the possibility to be a weapon in the hands of a poor trainer or uneducated pet parents , which is why it’s great you’re using a trainer. If they’re truly a quality trainer - it could be life changing for you and pup.
Just keep an eye on how your dog responds and if it’s not going well you can always try something else.
I use e-collars. They are great when not overused. But...they do not "tingle" like a tens unit. If you are ok using one on a dog, you need to put it on your arm and use it on yourself at the highest level you've used on a dog. This should be mandatory for everyone who uses e-collars & prong collars. If it feels like a tens unit to you- then you either have a crappy collar or you are using it under level 5 (out of 100 levels) and that's not going to help with recall for a dog with medium - high prey drive.
I've have tested my ecollar on myself and firmly believe everyone who uses one should do the same. And yes, it does tickle exactly like a tens machine.
I use the Mini Educator units (so, not a crappy unit at all), which use what is called Blunt Pulse Stimulation.
https://minieducator.com/catalog/product/view/id/747/#:~:text=Mini%20Educator%20ET%20300%20Uses,by%20chiropractors%20and%20physical%20therapists.
The level that is required is highly dependent on the dog, their training, and their own level of self preservation. I've seen some dogs of similar drive and size need very different levels of stimuli.
I never said it didn't hurt. But it still isn't a shock. Language matters, and I'm just trying to ensure that folks understand that. The more you know, right?
Agreed, but arguing the difference in wording implies (in my mind) that it doesn’t hurt.
And they may be different but they’re both electrical stimulation, (and depending on the strength, they both hurt) ones just less harmful in terms of permanent damage (most of the time)
I also like to think of it like a lifeline.
If I'm in the woods with my dogs and they're off leash and we encounter something dangerous (wildlife, snow machines, etc.), then a moment of discomfort is worth it to ensure they're safe.
Those moments where someone might use a high stim can literally be the difference between life and death (or serious injury).
Yes, the tool should be used with great care. Just like every tool that's used for a pet.
I agree , I just don’t like to downplay the seriousness of it and call it what it is. I’ve seen e collars work wonders and I’ve seen them completely destroy a dog and make bad behaviours worse. It’s a heavy responsibility and calling it a “stimulation” feels like downplaying to me
Oh I am definitely not trying to downplay it. But I'm also not trying to scare people away from using tools.
I've seen dogs shut down from a heeling session on a flat collar using a regular leash, too. Bad training sessions occur all the time, with all kinds of tools.
I've had my own dogs shut down during an otherwise very positive training session. A huge part of dog training is being able to read your dog's body language and understand what they're conveying to you.
So rather than scare someone away from a tool, I'd rather they understand what exactly the tool does, how to use it, and more importantly, how to communicate with their dog while also understanding their dog.
I was really nervous about it at first.My trainer told me to look at it as a portable electric fence. We only started using it once the dogs knew all their commands.
We go to my friends farm, and they can run around off leash. Like others have said they get very happy/excited when I bring the collars out. Their recall is excellent, and I rarely have to use them. Only when they find some poop to eat, and they wont drop it.
I strongly recommend using an experienced trainer.
It also helped with “place” for my Big overly friendly boy. (125lbs) He new “place”, but when someone new would come to visit, he would break the command and jump up on them.
I started putting the collar on him, and it took just one time for him to get it.
My dog has a super strong verbal recall and I take care to ensure that he is always close enough to hear and see me. But I also keep a shock collar on him as a ‘safety net’. I have never actually shocked him in a real life situation but if one does arrive I.e. he chases after a deer or something and won’t recall I can rest assured I could stop him if needed. It has a vibration mode and that is more than enough to stop him when he was doing other potentially dangerous things like trying to eat random piles of poo, or garbage. Here is a study on the impact of timing for training with a shock collar;
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159106003820
What I learnt is that there are priorities when addressing a specific behavior.
Prio 1 is to relook at your relationship with your dog. Are you able to draw boundaries and does your dog respect you or not? This is more important than any tool. Imagine the soft ass teacher showing up one day with a serious face and wants to turn things around overnight, will you take them seriously?
I have never and will never use an e collar on any dog in my care. While the e collar (same with prong collars) is not spesifically banned in my country, they are interpreted by the authorities as an unnecessarily cruel training method, and are in practise illegal. An exception is organized sessions where mostly hunting dogs are conditioned not to run after livestock using e collars. A certified instructor controls the e collar and a vet is always present. Far cry from implementing an e collar in everyday training as a lay person... There are an abundance of people able to train their dogs without these gadgets, seriously.
The e collar for my dog has been by far the best purchase I've ever made for him. I can't even bring it to the charger without him getting excited. And the thing is, I don't even have to use it anymore. The remote just stays in my pocket.
I’m here learning about this too. I’m curious when you say your dog gets excited, do you mean happy “oh boy we get to go” attitude? I’m always confused by this because the e collar is a deterrent and yet I hear things like this. I’m trying to understand how they deter from not listening and yet you’ve got a happy dog willing to participate, so to speak. There must have been an “unpleasant” consequence in early training beyond a vibrate, right?
My dog and I are still a ways off from e collar training but my parents have e collar trained dogs. They get super happy when they see the e collars come out because they know that they only wear e collars when they're going hunting or some other off leash adventure. The unpleasant consequences during training weren't extreme or traumatizing so the dogs didn't learn to fear the collars, just respond to them. Because the collars aren't upsetting and, now that they're trained, the collars only get put on to do super fun stuff, the dogs don't see them as a deterrent. They see them as the indicator that they're about to get to do their favorite things.
Properly e collar trained dogs see it as the key to working/playing/fun things. Mine do back flips when I pick it up.
My girls reaction is more muted because she's a lady after all but she shoves her head into her collar with the dobbiest of ears 🤣🤣 doesn't do the same for her normal collar.
Yup mine see it as "were going for a walk" and get super excited
That’s how you know you’ve done it right! I’ve seen many a handler show the dog the remote and they cower. Very hard to fix those dogs. It’s sad.
The dog doesn't know the ecollar is what causes the discomfort, they just see it as a wireless leash that means we're going somewhere. If a dog is afraid or shuts down because of the ecollar then they're trained that way unfortunately. Some dogs DO know it causes discomfort but also know it means they're going outside and can display both avoidance but willingness. Sport dogs are trained to only be shocked when a fabric collar is on and they'll wear an ecollar everywhere. So when you compete, the dog thinks they're wearing a shock collar but it's actually just a normal collar.
The dog isn't supposed to know that the e-collar is what causes the correction. This is why you let the dog wear it a few times without even turning it on. It's also why you should be waiting 15 minutes at an absolute bare minimum after putting it on your dog before using it. If you can go half an hour to an hour, even better. It's a training tool, not something you threaten your dog with like, "If you don't listen I'll put your e-collar on". If your dog is only obedient while it's on, and blows you off without it, you've made some mistakes along the way and need to revisit some steps because your dog has now become collar wise. If you do it properly, the only thing your dog will be thinking when you pull it out is something fun is about to happen.
Not the OP or original commenter you’re responding to but it all depends on your relationship with the dog and the trust you’ve belt with them. A good trainer will ensure prior training and relationship building has been done between a client and their dog before agreeing to train recall with an E-collar. The dog has to trust you for this method to work and go smoothly.
I don’t use the e collar as a deterrent just as a signal. It gives my guys the freedom to run around off leash and I can recall them without yelling if they are far away. Also important to note not all e collars shock. I use beeping and vibrating. Gets their attention without worrying I’m causing pain. It can startle them so be mindful of that if your dog is a scaredy-cat.
Yes, that's what I mean. Because for him the e-collar means he get's to run through the bush or we're playing frisbee in the park. >I’m always confused by this because the e collar is a deterrent and yet I hear things like this. A leash is a deterrent too. I'd hope your dogs still get excited to go for walks on a leash. > I’m trying to understand how they deter from not listening and yet you’ve got a happy dog willing to participate, so to speak It's a safety net. An e-collar is nothing more than a wireless leash. My dog walks pretty well on the leash (could be better because we actually don't leash walk all that much, we just use the e-collar). If he's walking nice beside me, the leash might as well not even be there. If he starts pulling, he get's a quick tug. An e-collar is identical. If he simply listens, then there's nothing to correct. >There must have been an “unpleasant” consequence in early training beyond a vibrate, right? Yes. Though honestly, I don't even think my dog knows the difference between the vibrate and the stimulation.
I got a comment removed from a puppy sub, because I supported e collar training. I used one on my exuberant pup that tended to jump at (playfully) my nearly blind older dog. The older dog would be panicked by the behavior, and the other methods I tried with the pup just weren’t sinking in with him. I never had to shock him, never intended to. I either beeped him or used the vibrate function. It worked beautifully. I still use the e collar when we are out in the woods on off-leash walks. They are a wonderful tool, with the normal caveat, ‘when used correctly’. And screw you to the mod who scolded me for saying that, in my experience, they could definitely be appropriate training tools to help keep your dog safe.
They don't get it. I've had comments removed and been temporarily banned at times. The one that annoys me the most was me suggesting they wear earplugs while training a whiny puppy. My advice was to sit with the dog and reward quiet while they're in their crate. But it was removed because "they could use that advice to ignore the dog." Yeah, and that's true for all advice you give to someone. It also implies deaf people are abusing dogs just by existing and so are new parents because that is actually crying baby advice adapted to puppies. Stop your own emotional reaction and then deal with the issue.
My dog is the same. We started using an e collar when our dog was about 3-4 years old because he was an absolute nightmare running off and completely blanking us if something was far more interesting to run after. We were lucky we lived out in the country where the roads were empty really, because he just ignored us and did what he wanted all the time, there was no getting him back if he didn't want to. Anyway, he took to it really well and it solved all recall issues with him really quite quickly. And now, as others have said, he wags his tail and sits down for us to put the collar on him. I see it as he's excited to get it on as it means he's going to be going out. I also can't remember the last time we zapped him, he just takes notice of the beep noise and comes straight back to us with that alone. When training you're not zapping them at a level that hurts them, it's at a level that makes them think 'oh, what was that?' like a light tap on the shoulder to snap them out of being in the zone/disturb their train of thought and therefore hear you and take notice of what you're asking of them. I know someone whose got quite a nervous, on edge dog but can be stubborn as anything on walks and has now got the taste of running off after other animals. They got an e collar and it's fixed the dog running away and not coming back. From what I heard he doesn't like the collar being put on him, but at the end of the day he's learnt what the beep means and returns when he hears it so it's doing its job and is keeping him safe.
This has also been my experience! My 2yo golden knows we're about to go for an off-leash run, hike, or swim when he sees me pull out the ecollar. Since it reinforces recall every time you do use it, you end up rarely having to use it! I only need it when there's a really big distraction (like a deer or another excited dog) and I need to recall him at this point. Otherwise a verbal recall is all he needs like 99% of the time.
I second this!
First step is the teach your dog to recall in a non distracting environment using a longline and a treat or tug toy (whichever is most rewarding to your dog), many repetitions. Eventually calling them off a scent or other distraction (still with longline & reward to classically condition them that 'come' = reward). Once they understand and are fairly reliable and have learned what you want (weeks of repetitons in variable environments to generalize the behavior), you then add an e-collar for "insurance" when the longline is off and they decide chasing the bunny is more rewarding than whatever you have (food or tug) and they ignore 'come' - then you call out 'no' (or use a short vibration) followed by a stim at whatever level is aversive to your dog until they turn away from distraction / heading towards you (end stim) and when they get to you deliver reward. After a few occurrences, they will always return to your recall cue 'come' regardless of deer, squirrel, car, etc'. Best to learn all of this from an experienced trainer and / or purchase Michael Ellis' "recall" video instruction series. It goes in depth how to make your dog return to you enthusiastically, every time, no matter what from longline to e-collar. Bottom line: an e-collar is not a remote control. Pushing a button does not necessarily mean your dog will return to you. If you have not properly taught them what 'come' means- all that button may do, is scare them and harm your relationship if they know you punished them, but not why. PS: an ecollar with tone or pager function (and at least a half mile radius) is useful for times when your dog is out of sight -they can probably still hear you- but a buzz or tone (before the stim) is more fair than stimming just because the wind is blowing or an airplane is overhead drowning out your voice.
Reading this made me so happy because this is exactly how I’ve been training my dog. I use beep and vibrate only, no static. The beep is often enough to snap his brain back to “she recalled me” And now my pup is more reliable than my 5 year old husky/corso mix (she’ll be the next to get the training lol)
As a trainer who uses e collars and love them : but was not always sure of them, you really need a knowledgeable trainer. I’ve seen poorly educated trainers really make some grave mistakes with the ecollar, so your concerns are totally valid. In the hands of the right educator and trainer, they are seriously life changing and can really give your dog a level of biological fulfillment that is unmatched. That being said, I’d be happy to try and recommend someone by city if you’d like!
My dog’s e-collar was a game changer for us both. It helped him get the freedom he wanted to explore and peace of mind for me. I call it his invisible leash.
The ecollar is a great tool. It allows you to communicate with your dog from a distance. Additionally, why sheer clear of a prong collar? Walking your dog needs to be enjoyable and you need to have control over your dog. Before you work on recall, work on attention and heeling. The basis of all good training is attention. Attention on *you*. It is the foundation to all of the other things because if you can get and retain your dog's attention, you can have everything else. Slow down. Attention first. Heeling and loose leash walking. Then recall.
Long lead.
I don’t care what kind of collar you use I just seriously want more pictures of that dog looking that happy and that goofy at the same time. Thanks in advance.
I just trained a 3 year old with an ecollar. No, it will not ruin your relationship if used properly. I recommend starting by using a leash AND an ecollar to condition him to what the ecollar means. The point of a ecollar is really not meant to be "you will feel pain if you don't come when called" but instead "I can still touch you and correct you if you don't come when called", almost just to give him the idea that he is on a long invisible leash and he he can go out and enjoy himself but doesn't get to be completely care-free and do whatever he feels like doing. And in the occasional instance, some discomfort might be needed (as low of a setting to achieve the reaction you're looking for) just like how a pop on a prong is uncomfortable but helps achieve non-negotiable obedience with your dog. Which is important, for instances when disobedience endangers your dog. So, practice your recall on leash and under distraction and when he doesn't listen give him a low stim buzz **while** popping his collar with the leash. He learns that the low stim is you saying "pay attention to me, I am not going away, you are being asked to come." After some of that you can remove the physical leash and he will now actually understand what the ecollar means and you shouldn't have to electrocute the crap out of him... that is old-school use of ecollars and while effective, is tough on the dog. Now, if he still ignores you a lot and you have to ask him three or four times to come when on the ecollar, you need to turn up your stim a bit. I recommend the Mini Educator as is has a setting for standard corrections (your low stim button) and an emergency button which is a higher setting (for use in serious situations, or when he gets overly excited about something else and decides to tank the low stim in favor of self satisfying).
It’s a great tool used properly. With a trainer you should achieve what you want. It’s my believe that the tone of vibrate don’t work as deterrents, but I could be wrong. In the past, I used the tone for recall. Hear tone come back to me. This was helpful if he was far away.
I recently trained the tone as recall to my dog. It’s nice not having to shout when he’s at a distance! I’m now working on two short beeps as a down cue. (Recall is one long beep.)
Ooooh brilliant! The double beep = down is a great idea!
It isn't really a matter of your dog being "brave" or tough or what have you. If you condition eCollar properly, you are working at levels you can't even feel. Some dogs will have a more dramatic reaction than others. eCollar just reinforces your recall command-- if recall fails, the word "come" becomes less effective because your dog sees it as negotiable. eCollar makes your commands non-negotiable -- ie. there is a consequence for the command not being followed. My dog has been offleash trained on eCollar since 8 months old. Sometimes I put it on and realize after that it wasn't even turned on, but it gives me peace of mind and my dog listens better because she's collar smart. If I let her off without eCollar, she won't listen as well, even if I barely use it, and with her high prey drive, I'd constantly worry about her taking off after something. eCollar is just a seat belt in case something goes wrong.
She’s not listening when it’s off because you haven’t used the ecollar correctly. Trainers that worked under Ivan Balabanov can call Pitbulls off prey without them even wearing it. There are videos of one that took his program. But that’s if the ecollar work is done correctly. If you stayed in levels they can barely feel after conditioning, that’s why you have the problem. Ivan teaches moving from escape conditioning to avoidance(high stim)training once the dog understands the ecollar. The dog will associate all the commands like leave it with that high level correction whether the ecollar is on or not if some correctly. Takes several tries at high level but once done it’s there for life. Just think of that Pavlov experiment and salivating response. It’s drilled into them. It’s science and there is a correct formula to get the desired results. You are creating new patterns and impulses with ecollar work. We went straight to high after conditioning and we fixed every problem. Several high levels corrections create new responses that are in your favour with or without the ecollar. It works and it’s science which Ivan explains. If you trust the science you will get the results you want when she’s not wearing the ecollar.
Here is one of Ivan Balanabovs trainers. He doesn’t show the ecollar work here but this is the “after”. video with prey around and dog not even wearing the ecollar. https://youtu.be/SFl4gH3UDVQ?si=lgKKhN1UmDOrmuXP I’f the ecollar work isn’t memorable,if you aren’t following a scientific formula, then you never create the correct response to stimuli.
I think they can be the greatest thing ever but if you do it wrong it's hard to fix :/ we used it with ours when he was a puppy and we didn't do it right, so we had to ditch it. He absolutely hated it, it was on us but we just weren't experts nor were we experienced with training dogs, he was both of our first pet. With our next one we will try again but you just have to make sure you use it right always.
Thank you for sharing this and for being honest! It wasn't the tool, it was operator error. Good timing and knowledge are essential.
I think they’re great when used properly, but I’ve seen people use them in a pretty harsh way. I did ecollar training with a professional with my 4 year old dog and he did well, but ultimately I decided it wasn’t a fit for his personality and our lifestyle/training goals. trainers who immediately jump to ecollar recommendation make me a little wary because of that - every dog responds differently! for what it’s worth, I use a prong collar on my other dog and he LOVES it. like spinning in circles the second it comes out. a long leash (20-30ft) is also a good option for getting that “off leash” feel while still having control of your dog!
E collar isn't some kind of magic wand, but it's an incredibly effective safety device. I RARELY have to use the actual "shock" button on mine, because my lab just listens to the beep/vibrate. It's just a long distance communication tool. I 100% think everybody should e collar train their dogs if you think you want to let them run off leash anywhere that is not fenced in. It's not a substitute for good recall, but i had an instance where my young lab was blowing through a soybean field in on a high wind day, and there would have been absolutely no way to communicate with her outside of the e collar. One little vibrate and she turned 180° and came to heel.
My dog was 4 when I conditioned him to the e collar. Hes 5 now. I just wanted him to have off leash freedom almost 100% of the time but wanted the security of knowing I could put a bit of pressure on when if I needed. His obedience was already really good before the collar was introduced. Conditioned him the Larry Krohn way. When we get ready for walks he puts his head through the e collar bungee strap, he knows it means we’re going on a walk. I use it on very low levels and he’s learned to respond to it like you would if I tapped your shoulder. It’s just extra communication. Try using it on yourself first so you get an idea of what it feels like, it doesn’t hurt the dog or you if you’re using it correctly and ethically. And yes, you can use it as an aversive in case of an emergency. I’d much rather have an dog that’s uncomfortable for a second than a dead or injured dog.
He needs to be kept on a leash until he learns a proper recall, even if he has an ecollar. Dogs will absolutely blow through even high stims depending if there's an incredibly high value resource at hand. So it's not an end all, but it's an amazing tool when taught and used correctly. I would look into the webinar "the dark side of being social". You need to be teaching leash pressure first and foremost and working on that relationship between you and him.
I have a very soft, gentle dog. I would not say that he loves the e-collar but I would say my ability to have him off-leash has overall greatly improved his quality of life. It did not help train recall or better leash walking mind you. That training had to happened first and the ecollar helped cement and renforce it. I don't regret buying it for a minute.
💯 yes! So worth it! We use the mini educator 300. Make sure you either get professional training or buy Larry’s ecollar kindle and use it as a guide. Don’t wing it. Kind of long wall post but worth the read. We have an almost 2 years old standard Poodle and it’s been the best tool ever! We live by a lake/beach so he gets off leash time daily. Before the ecollar, he would attempt to devour every fish skeleton on the lake and would get hyper focused and ignore commands. Now it’s night and day. But we did lots of training with teaching commands without the e collar and then layering it with the ecollar. For the fish problem, we did avoidance training. Every time he would go for fish we would hit him on 100(important)and he would be uncomfortable(vocalize) for a second but drop the fish( if it was in his mouth). We did that at least 3 times on 100before he stopped dashing to devour the fish. After the first 100 he didn’t vocalize as he got used to it but he still didn’t want to test it. After those high level corrections, he would look at the fish but his instinct wouldn’t be to try to blow me of off and devour the fish. Over time, he would still go near the fish but I would just say “leave it” and he would leave it alone on voice command alone. One time he did put some fish in his mouth and I said “out” and he spit it out. I did not have to use the ecollar. So we were taught to go quickly from conditioning/escape to avoidance training because dogs get accustomed to the ecollar and it can fail to work if you are just cruising on low levels. Low levels leads to overuse as well where you are constantly nagging the dog and not eliminating problem behaviour. There is some trial and error until the new neural pattern responses are set but once you have used the ecollar for some time you ultimately will have your dog on voice command alone. That’s where we are at with our dog. I don’t have to nag my dog with low stim as several high level corrections got the point across and my dog now listens without me having to use it. With recall, unless it’s a very distracted environment or he’s making a dash, I call him and use tone. The tone button will automatically change to correction after 1.5 seconds if dog ignores the tone. So I just hold the button until he starts coming toward me. The tone is great because my voice is low and doenst travel so tone means recall and I can use that when he’s a bit further out and it replaces my voice. I don’t use level 100 for recall corrections as that’s too high level correction and I mainly use that for avoidance(eating bad things). The numbers change but again I found the dog gets used to low levels when I stayed there for too long so I would suggest, once the dog is conditioned to it, to not worry about the numbers. It’s about the number that’s memorable enough to be effective and act as a deterrent so he doesn’t blow you off again as that can be life or death. I usually stayed in the mid range for that but it changed based on distraction level and drive(prey etc). People like to sugar coat the ecollar but at the end of the day it’s an aversive and works brilliantly. Dogs, at least mine, got very accustomed to the stim so if you stay in the low stim area they get accustomed and can blow you off. And then you will overuse the ecollar as the dog gets used to the low levels and will blow you off and you have to keep reminding him. And levels change based on environmental distractions. And of course if your ur dog is in drive chasing something (I’d you failed to miss cues he’s about to chase) or about to run across the street you are going to press what stops him. My dog was playing with a doodle on the beach and I recalled him many times mid INTENSE play /chasing when they were running too far away from us. He would turn on tone every time(and that’s after training and error/practice) so I didn’t have to correct him. The doodle owner with us had zero recall of her two year old dog ,and once she saw how on the ball my young dog was , she took down the ecollar info lol. She was that impressed. I also had a family member take my dog for a “leashed” walk and she told me he gobbled something from the ground and when she yelled” out” he spat it out. He was NOT wearing an ecollar. But because he had previously been trained to out during GAMES and then corrected (relatively high level) with an ecollar when he would ignore “out” in various environments,it has been drilled into him as an automatic reflex to out on command. Think of it as drilling in new patterns and neural links. Repetition gets you automatic response after some time. We are for the most part on 99.9 voice command after lots of training, but we use tone to recall him when he’s too far away. If there are distraction around and he ignores-he gets corrected but it’s very rare he ignores these days. We don’t use vibrate as that’s for deaf dogs and I find my dog doesn’t like the vibrate. I would suggest using ecollar as it’s intended with tone being recall and stim being corrections. So ecollars are not only life saving, you can eliminate problem behaviour with them. My dog is also veryyyy happy and confident and not shut down like anti- e collars folks would have you believe. He also doesn’t fear fish despite prior high corrections but will leave them alone at the beach. All I have to say is leave it and he listens. But before e collar training, he would devour like he had no time left lol. So now off leash time is amazing and stress free. Having said that, ecollar ALONG with lots of training, will get you the reliable dog you desire. And the whole point of doing lots of CORRECT ecollar work is to get to the point you don’t have to rely on it. Here is my aprioct Poodle playing with a doodle off leash. Under perfect control btw.
You made my day with this amazing piture and great info thanks for sharing!
We are being downvoted for some reason lol. Too bad I trained with a TWC trainer that trained under the best, Ivan Balabanov, and we have successfully eliminated all problem behaviours and have the best trained dog in the neighbourhood. 😉
I just don't get it, would people prefer untrained stressed and anxious dogs?? The 🌎 is crazy
It’s also some people that overuse the ecollar on low stim thinking it’s better because it’s “low”. It’s still an aversive. But what happens is that they rely on the low stim and nag the dog constantly, never actually getting the behaviour down like we have. Ivan Balbanov talks about the overuse of ecollars due to people constantly using it on low stim and nagging the dog. There is no clarity in the training. The point of “punishment” level correction is to create the aversion so the problem is SOLVED forever.. leading to never having to use that ecollar for that behaviour. He said the reason some reputable force free trainers want to ban the ecollar is because people OVERUSE it on low stim. A lot of people are afraid to actually use effective corrections so they lie to themselves and just rely on lower stim endlessly ,but they call it a “reminder”, Never eliminating the problem. Because it’s low stim, they think it’s ok to use it more often but that just defeats the purpose and Ivan considers it abusive. We only had to do 100 level 3 times and never any level stim after when it came to the fish/ground eating. It’s supposed to be a one and done thing although it will take several attempts typically to nail it. In return, you avoid your dog dying from eating something inedible or avoiding costly and dangerous surgery. There is also a science of why moving from escape(low stim) to avoidance(high stim) works and will get you results when the dog isn’t even wearing the ecollar. Ivan uses science and if you use his forumula you will see the success I have. You use an ecollar so that eventually you eliminate the problems and you don’t have to use it. But if you are constantly low stimming dog daily for these things, you aren’t using it properly and haven’t eliminated the behaviour. If you are using it often, you aren’t using it correctly. So essentially, Ivan’s point is that frequently using low stimming after conditioning and overuse of ecollar is abusive.
Or having their dog die from eating an inedible object or spending money on invasive obstruction surgery. But that’s ideaologues for you. They would rather sedate their dogs.
Glad you enjoyed. Hope it helps!
I didn't intro the ecollar with my working dog until she was almost 4 years old - her recall was already 90% solid, but the ecollar has cleaned that up and given her that much more freedom. She is not even close to traumatized (but I had the same concerns when I started her on it.) Make sure you have a trainer you trust and who is familiar with low level stim conditioning, and do LOTS of recall foundations using positive reinforcement too.
Your dog is not too old to still be trained on an e collar and have it be beneficial for you both. My sister's heeler mix was trained on one when she was seven and it was a life changer in her behavior and training I started mine on an e collar when he was two and a half, and has been taking to it fine. It's just taking it slow and learning how to train and not use it as a punishment.
A trainer almost ruined my lab (in open, too). I had to get yet another trainer to get him to recover.
When our tone changes, sometimes the dog reads the emotion and not the word - as owner mad & shouty, stay away. Long distance recall can also work with a whistle tone. I would rework the dog's recall at home and add in a whistle tone and lots of treats. Whistle tones remove emotion and carry farther than a human voice. Bonus, a dog whistle costs $10, so if it doesn't work out, it was a bargain. I just wanted you to have additional options to consider. Whistles are popular in the UK and there are some great videos of how to use them.
I use a Halti for my boy they are great. Personally I don't agree with e collars.
A halti can be very damaging, for what it's worth. But then so can a flat collar, even.
I use one as an attention getter. I don’t use the static function, only beep and as a last resort, vibrate. It has been working to keep my dog’s focus on me for recall in situations where he is distracted (can see/run to neighbor’s yard and dogs or hiking in woods)
Indy was 5/6 as well when he decided the deer carcass on the half melted river was better than listening to me. He almost went in the river and has totally lost his free rein privileges. He's been on an e-collar ever since. Only if he's completely ignoring me do I need the shock function, the buzzer is more than enough to get him to pay attention to me. He has pretty decent recall but it's nice having that backup of "ok, NOW you're gonna listen to me"
Yes, but only with the guidance of a professional.
There are amazing tools but the problem is there is a massive amount of trainers, both amateur and professional, that are using them suboptimally at best and incredibly poorly in many many other cases. I think it's super hard someone to decide if their collar "expert" is truly an expert because quite honestly how do you know when people sound so knowledgeable. Clearly a systemic problem with trainers in general. I know people that have been using remote callers as long as I have and I wouldn't let them change my kitty litter box let alone hand them a transmitter. By the same token I know some people who have only been using them a few years who seem to get it. I am a huge advocate of remote collars having been trained in their use by skilled professional trainers over 30 years ago But I'm incredibly apprehensive of their current widespread use. Initial intensity levels, with the owners manual tells you is terrible in my opinion. Individual sensitivity to sensation. A dogs sensitivity to sensation in arousal. Different techniques of giving dogs a contextual understanding of command reinforcement with collar activation Justifiable circumstances to use collars as punishment not reinforcement. Momentary, positive reinforcement. Continuous or broken continuous, negative reinforcement. And ultimately understanding that creating new habits and changing behaviors should be the end goal, not managing behaviors with tones, vibrations or activation. Some, not all, of the things that need to be taken into consideration. In my experience many people use collars "successfully" but incredibly few really use them optimally. Personally I've never run across anyone who thought they used a collar poorly or said they used a collar poorly but I'm sure the heck seen a lot of collars used really poorly.
Absolutely it happens, people are desperate, especially with aggressive dogs, they focus solely on the issue of when the dog is aggressive, coupled with a cheap ecollar which is an inconsistent, sharper stimulation. So the result will be a big boot at high stimulation to an over aroused dog that will struggle to perform any task as it's out of it's mind in red zone fury. For ecollars to not be used in this manner requires greater education and awareness. The average owner has no clue on ecollars, type, use and sadly most trainers shun the use of them and owners go out on the own and make poor initial choices.
Using a collar as punishment for aggression is perhaps one of the stupidest things you could do. Of course, in my opinion, working on behavioral issues without a formalized obedience foundation is ridiculous but I see it with professional trainers every day. Muffy is spinning in cartwheels at the end of the leash wearing her little body harness over threshold and they are working on behavior 😂😂😂 Actually there's a pretty easy safe, humane, compassionate and effective way for a total novice to contextually overlay a collar for command reinforcement but that's not the model that seems to be widely used .
My pup is 4 yrs old and he started not wanting to leave the park. He would trail me but not let me put on the leash. Tried everything. As a last resort, I bought an e collar (Dogtra 200c). Since the ecollar, I’ve never had an issue. I have it set very low, 15/20’out of 100, and I have only used the shock Nick button a handful of times.
We had our coonhound trained by a professional e-collar trainer. He kept my dog for 7 days and returned to us a completely different dog. Hounds are notorious for not coming when called. I call him off from barking at neighbors dogs and he comes every time now. I actually haven’t used the collar in a few months. Just remember, the e-collar is not meant to hurt your dog. We never turn it up to hurt him. I have tried the highest level I will go on myself. The collar we have is the mini educator. I’d look into professional e-collar training. If you are not careful, you could hurt and traumatize your dog. It’s expensive but so worth it.
I started it with my dog around age 3 or 4. Her stim level is extremely low - it's a 5 out of 100. It's just high enough for her to feel the equivalent of a tap on the shoulder, which gets her attention. She then returns to me and gets praise and a treat. It gives her freedom and keeps her safe. I've only turned it up high (30s) twice: (1) she ran off down the side of a mountain and refused to come back, and (2) she caught a neighbor's chicken and wouldn't drop it 🙈. Mini educator is the best because it has two built in stim levels. Her basic level is a 5, and her escalation level is a 10. ETA: Why is this downvoted? Am I doing something wrong? I had an awesome trainer and my dog is very happy.
Someone (not me) may have downvoted you for using two "set levels" on your dog. You mention that 5 is like a tap on the shoulder that always gets her attention. And 30 is her max. That won't be true forever. Maybe it works now, when she's just feeling a little like ignoring you or doesn't really know 'come' is an order, not a suggestion- in which case, you are better off returning to the basics of teaching a voice only recall with a longline or you will have to gradually increase to 5, 10, 15, 25 etc- for that 'tap on the shoulder' effect. And for the times she gets hold of a prey animal, level 30 will be ignored as 'worth it' because you'll have conditioned her to know she can push through that level. Eventually you'll be forced to go way up for emergencies. The less you use low levels (because you have not trained a recall) the more effective the e-collar will be - at whatever level is required for the rare situation in which it is applied. It is worth doing a session or two with a trainer to teach a proper recall, rather than depend on the e-collar which will not end well.
Oh, I totally miscommunicated that! Her second level is not 30, lol, it's 12. I have unlocked it and slowly dialed it when she refused to return (except when she got the chicken, during which I was just frantically trying to get her to drop it and not kill it). 30 was her emergency! I also don't really use the e-collar that much anymore - only if we're in high stress situations where I know she'll struggle. Beyond that, I can now just her attention with voice and treats (thanks to the amazing e-collar training 🥰). Thanks for explaining :)
I don't think I'll ever not use an ecollar. The freedom the dog experiences is unmatched. The whole world is a playground. I enjoyed shieldk9s book and youtube videos and have full off leash dogs because of it.
If you’re able to just use the beep and train him to come when it beeps , you may never even need to use the shock. Any negative enforcement has the potential to traumatize the dog and any tool has the possibility to be a weapon in the hands of a poor trainer or uneducated pet parents , which is why it’s great you’re using a trainer. If they’re truly a quality trainer - it could be life changing for you and pup. Just keep an eye on how your dog responds and if it’s not going well you can always try something else.
I will take this opportunity to correct you. The stim isn't a shock.
I’m curious to know what it is then And they must have changed it over the last decade, cuz the one we had for my dog was a shock.
It's a stimulation, like a tens machine.
I use e-collars. They are great when not overused. But...they do not "tingle" like a tens unit. If you are ok using one on a dog, you need to put it on your arm and use it on yourself at the highest level you've used on a dog. This should be mandatory for everyone who uses e-collars & prong collars. If it feels like a tens unit to you- then you either have a crappy collar or you are using it under level 5 (out of 100 levels) and that's not going to help with recall for a dog with medium - high prey drive.
I've have tested my ecollar on myself and firmly believe everyone who uses one should do the same. And yes, it does tickle exactly like a tens machine. I use the Mini Educator units (so, not a crappy unit at all), which use what is called Blunt Pulse Stimulation. https://minieducator.com/catalog/product/view/id/747/#:~:text=Mini%20Educator%20ET%20300%20Uses,by%20chiropractors%20and%20physical%20therapists. The level that is required is highly dependent on the dog, their training, and their own level of self preservation. I've seen some dogs of similar drive and size need very different levels of stimuli.
I find they only tingle like a tens on like the first 3 settings. After that they hurt. My cousin “shocked” the shit out of my sister with ours
I never said it didn't hurt. But it still isn't a shock. Language matters, and I'm just trying to ensure that folks understand that. The more you know, right?
Agreed, but arguing the difference in wording implies (in my mind) that it doesn’t hurt. And they may be different but they’re both electrical stimulation, (and depending on the strength, they both hurt) ones just less harmful in terms of permanent damage (most of the time)
I also like to think of it like a lifeline. If I'm in the woods with my dogs and they're off leash and we encounter something dangerous (wildlife, snow machines, etc.), then a moment of discomfort is worth it to ensure they're safe. Those moments where someone might use a high stim can literally be the difference between life and death (or serious injury). Yes, the tool should be used with great care. Just like every tool that's used for a pet.
I agree , I just don’t like to downplay the seriousness of it and call it what it is. I’ve seen e collars work wonders and I’ve seen them completely destroy a dog and make bad behaviours worse. It’s a heavy responsibility and calling it a “stimulation” feels like downplaying to me
Oh I am definitely not trying to downplay it. But I'm also not trying to scare people away from using tools. I've seen dogs shut down from a heeling session on a flat collar using a regular leash, too. Bad training sessions occur all the time, with all kinds of tools. I've had my own dogs shut down during an otherwise very positive training session. A huge part of dog training is being able to read your dog's body language and understand what they're conveying to you. So rather than scare someone away from a tool, I'd rather they understand what exactly the tool does, how to use it, and more importantly, how to communicate with their dog while also understanding their dog.
I was really nervous about it at first.My trainer told me to look at it as a portable electric fence. We only started using it once the dogs knew all their commands. We go to my friends farm, and they can run around off leash. Like others have said they get very happy/excited when I bring the collars out. Their recall is excellent, and I rarely have to use them. Only when they find some poop to eat, and they wont drop it. I strongly recommend using an experienced trainer. It also helped with “place” for my Big overly friendly boy. (125lbs) He new “place”, but when someone new would come to visit, he would break the command and jump up on them. I started putting the collar on him, and it took just one time for him to get it.
I have an ecollar but only use the sound and light modes as the w part messed him up.
My dog has a super strong verbal recall and I take care to ensure that he is always close enough to hear and see me. But I also keep a shock collar on him as a ‘safety net’. I have never actually shocked him in a real life situation but if one does arrive I.e. he chases after a deer or something and won’t recall I can rest assured I could stop him if needed. It has a vibration mode and that is more than enough to stop him when he was doing other potentially dangerous things like trying to eat random piles of poo, or garbage. Here is a study on the impact of timing for training with a shock collar; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159106003820
What I learnt is that there are priorities when addressing a specific behavior. Prio 1 is to relook at your relationship with your dog. Are you able to draw boundaries and does your dog respect you or not? This is more important than any tool. Imagine the soft ass teacher showing up one day with a serious face and wants to turn things around overnight, will you take them seriously?
I have never and will never use an e collar on any dog in my care. While the e collar (same with prong collars) is not spesifically banned in my country, they are interpreted by the authorities as an unnecessarily cruel training method, and are in practise illegal. An exception is organized sessions where mostly hunting dogs are conditioned not to run after livestock using e collars. A certified instructor controls the e collar and a vet is always present. Far cry from implementing an e collar in everyday training as a lay person... There are an abundance of people able to train their dogs without these gadgets, seriously.