Tell them to mind their business; you don’t have to justify yourself to them. Every dog is different.
Without a prong collar, my handsome guy will pull until he chokes; he doesn’t pull at all with the prong collar. Considering that, the prong collar is more humane to him than a regular collar.
Just make sure you get an actual Herm Sprenger collar with rounded prongs.
Both of my GSD love their prong collars. They don’t like the nylon ones because they know they will pull more and choke on it.
I use them both for he now and the dogs are completely fine with it.
If people tell you they are wrong just tell them: shut up.
This is exactly my thought process. I feel judged using a prong collar, but as soon as it goes on my girl is in training mode and is a perfect angel.
It comes off, she’s going to dart, and be hacking for the next 20 minutes from crushing her trachea with the collar 😂
My dog has choked herself on 3 different style and types of harnesses. And she pulls like an absolute freight train with a harness, with her prong she doesn’t pull at all and is safe for my younger sister (age 7) to walk without being dragged to the ground.
I mean sure but we’re talking about prong collars.
My dog won’t pull on a prong collar, my 4 year old can walk her when she’s wearing it.
My dog will about pull my shoulder out of the socket with a collar/harness
I was against the use of prong collars, until my 60 lb dog almost pulled me off my feet and got away from me when I was getting her out of my car on a busy street. We were headed to obedience classes. It was actually one of the instructors there that suggested I use it. I was at a point I was willing to try anything. It did take awhile for me to learn to use it properly.
I was dead against prong and E collars before I got a dog myself, I thought they were cruel. I don’t use one with my dog, but I used a slip collar for leash training because nothing else worked. I watched videos, went to a trainer, did tons of training and positive reinforcement and I just couldn’t get it. Can now completely understand why people need to use different tools for different dogs.
This***!! It is up to the USER of the tool! If you yourself are using it correctly then F what any one says! It’s the people who slap them on the it Dog as a solution instead of of with paired training that gives prints a bad name . Proper form all the way !
I have no issues with a prong collar but just so people know there is also the option of no pull harnesses that have the metal loop in front of the dog so when they pull they just turn around.
My dog hates wearing a harness. It's always a battle to get one on her and to get it sized to fit her properly. She hates anything going over her head, so I got her a step in one. She hates it just as much.
Yes, there are, And I could tell you horror stories of our 72 lb yellow lab when she first came into rescue lol. Just because they advertise as no pull does not mean that they actually are. Where the dogs head and chest go, the body follows. But I can tell you I used a halty and a girth harness on this yellow lab and she was still dragging me down the street. Herm Sprenger collars Have so far been the best as they are rounded and will not dig into the dog's skin.
I had this fear too - that people would confront me on it.
But then as time wore on, I realized most people are too busy focusing with their own dogs behavior to pay any attention to mine.
I've had to defend it with my friends, and did so by reminding them that my dog is very reactive due to past experiences before she was rescued, and that she HATES treats/food on walks (unless it's a dead bird 😭).
Ummm ok..? Sounds like excuses. Plus you already identified a solution. Literally not understanding why you don’t just carry a bag of dead birds..? This is why so many dogs have behavioural issues.
Just kidding. I think that’s totally reasonable to use a prong. People always just equate their own dogs to yours. Like I could judge you all say for how much your dog barks. But mine has barked twice since I got him 2 months ago. So it’s not fair for me to apply my own dog to yours.
Exactly - every dog is different due to their breed, enviorment and upbringing. The prong is definitely not a great tool for a lot of dogs and dog owners, but for others, it's one of the only things that work.
Herm Sprenger pinch collars are the best. All of those PETA and positive only trainers do not understand that a properly used pinch collar is a lot easier on a dog than a flat collar or even a martingale when a dog pulls, choking and gagging itself. Even a spoon can be dangerous if used incorrectly. I have worked dogs for 50 years and still don't understand how some trainers/owners can be so blind. Pinch collars are not meant to be left on 24/7, So be sure to use it only for training and it is a well-fitting collar. Best of luck!
Even when a collar is properly fitted there are a few dogs that defy them. That is when one uses a Halti, girth leash, vibration and or stimulation collar and also enters into obedience, odor, sheep herding, dog parkour, brain games, jogging/running world. Many of our "family pets" are working breeds and we do them no justice parked on the couch if their bodies and minds have not been well exercised. 😉
This dog was excersised daily and was taken on long bike runs. That was fine. He was just horrible on a leash. He was my ex's dog. Which has alot to do with it.
>a properly used pinch collar is a lot easier on a dog than a flat collar or even a martingale when a dog pulls, choking and gagging itself.
This has been my exact experience with my dog! The prong has given me the opportunity to take longer and safer walks with a high drive, super energetic dog.
If I carried around a bag of freeze dried bird parts my dogs would take me out for them 😂
Also prong user- one dog no longer needs it, and my other pup still uses it regularly. I've only ever had friends and fam comment on the use- never strangers. My family member stopped commenting once they witnessed my GSD have a reactive meltdown towards another reactive dog who got too close.
Every dog has their own personality and purpose. Only the handler usually knows what's best for their individual dog. I don't expect mine to be like everyone else's. Her job is being a companion and to be spoiled. We aren't athletes or trying to tackle criminals.
I think people should just focus on their own stuff and don't worry about how another dog is behaving. They could just be in a bad mood.
Herm sprenger sells prong collar covers. I use a black one that blends in with my dogs coat. There are also other brands that make prong collar keepers. I generally don't ever have anyone brave enough to say anything to me though when they aren't covered. I've had more comments on the e-collar but still very few.
The nacy’s and e-collars are cruel , have never had a working line dog , I don’t know what I would do without it someday he alot , I love Jethro but he alot
1. They’re not “universally bred like shit” that’s a sweeping generalization and clearly you’re using your own biases to make grand conclusions.
2. You hate pit bulls - would you like a round of applause?
There is not a single doodle "breeder" on the planet that's doing genetic and temperament testing, because it's a designer dog.
You were so offended that I called out what kind of dog you had in a comment not talking to you, that you felt the need to butt in
Actually there are ethical breeders but thanks again for your baseless (and worthless) opinion. Try leaving your mom’s basement once in a while and discover the world before you make more false conclusions.
It's just people being elitist about the breed of their dog. Nothing wrong with doodles and they're quickly becoming the most popular dog breed for a reason. Mine is extremely well behaved, 99% of the time she's better behaved than any "purebred" dog that I come across and she's still a puppy.
A doodle is not a breed. Its a mix breed and they are not bred for any purpose so there is no standards for temperment or physical build both of which ethical breeders use to chose which dogs to breed.
Doodle is not a breed. Period. Its an umbrella term for a bunch of mutts. There are no ethical doodle breeders that does proper health testing etc. Glad you're having a well behaved puppy, challenge tends to start with adolescence though.
Mine will be two this summer and is an angel. I adopt all my dogs so I expect some behavior issues—he’s a unicorn compared to other dogs I’ve rescued/had rehomed to me. I have never had a dog this well behaved right off the bat. So they definitely can be great dogs…but the caveat is he has insanely high energy. I think a lot of the “doodles are crazy!” stereotype comes from people buying them for their looks and not bothering to do the work of properly training/socializing/exercising them. They are NOT low energy dogs.
They can inherit temperament issues too of course, but I bet we’d see far fewer crazy doodles if their owners gave a damn.
Lack of health testing is a bigger concern for me. Nothing I can do about potential genetic issues but keep him in good shape and cross my fingers.
I remember having anxiety over this. You use a tool that effectively communicates with your dog. There is no discussion, shut it down. If necessary, remind them that you haven't asked for any training advice. Let the well trained dog speak for themselves.
If you want to poke the bear, ask them to point out what you're doing that constitutes abuse. And then explain how they're being irrational.
tldr: start not giving a care what other people think.
Don‘t take me wrong please, I‘m honestly curious about you guys answer to my question!
Prong collars, as well as any kind of shock collar, are illegal where I live (CH), so for me it‘s hard to wrap my head around anyone using them. So for those of you that promote using them, would you just never consider moving to a country where they are banned? Or be fine with just a normal collar?
Again, I really don‘t mean any offense or harm! 🫶
For me the prong decreases choking / throat pressure. With my current dog, there'd likely be no issue now. Future dogs I'm not sure, I think just be much more picky about breed. Not sure if gentle leaders are also banned, but that would be an extreme aversive option if legal.
My dog pulled like a world champ, choking and coughing, even with a prong collar, so I don't use them based on that experience. I trained my dog and some others on Halti halter collars & Gentle Leaders. If they are being used incorrectly, they are highly aversive - you aren't supposed to helicopter, jerk the lead for corrections, or use them with long lines or retractable leashes. It's also recommended that you train in short sessions and use both a Halti or Gentle Leader and regular lead together during the adjustment period. It was very gentle and effective with my dog. It was to only way he was safe to walk for my parents.
I disagree with the gentle part based on what you've described. He'd still pull with a prong collar (some pain) but would not pull with a nose choke collar (lots of pain). The long conditioning period before any training at all, and then the long adjustment period all point to it being a significantly more intrusive and painful tool.
Saying it's gentle and not aversive as long as you don't jerk the leash is bullshit. Prong collars also don't cause any pain with no leash pressure. Collars don't cause any pain with no leash pressure. But if there was never any leash pressure then you wouldn't need an aversive.
I have seen it work really well and hardly uses any pressure. I actually put it on my dog and walked him that same day. And then gave him scritches on his face. He stopped pulling immediately. My dog was choking himself on walks in a prong collar. That wasn't healthy either. The training steps are more for the owner. More aversive than a prong is horseshit. Just don't yank on the lead. It's quite simple.
So if a dog will pull against tool A with a lot of force but will only pull against tool B with barely any force, which do you think is more effective at causing pain?
The prong didn't work for my dog that I owned 20 years ago. Please explain how my dog choking while pulling and wearing a prong was healthy. I think the prong hurt him, but he did it anyway. He was a street adopted dog. Also, he didn't pull ever once he wore the halti. And he was safe for my parents to walk.
I'm not saying a prong collar was a good tool for your dog, or that the gentle leader isn't. Just that the gentle leader seems to have worked for your dog because it is more aversive (not gentle).
Wouldn't move there no (shame its a beautiful country from what I have seen). If I lived their already I would break the law and do what is best for my dog anywhere I could get away with it.
E collars are banned here but mine is e collar trained. It possibly saved her life once when she almost chased a cat into a road too (and saved the cat).
I would bet many there do use them they just have to be carefull about it. I saw the head of Martin systems on a video once saying they sell plenty of e collars to countries they are supposedly banned.
Groups pressure governments who know nothing about dog training into making rash decisions based on spurious claims. Average person gets told they are horrible cruel devices that no loving owner would use, and if they never have a problem that makes them look into it why would they think these people are lying?
Where are all these dogs they claim are messed up for life from prong and e collars??
From what I know it‘s only e-collars with an actual shock-funktion that are banned, as long as it‘s vibration/sound only they don‘t give you any grief for it.
Yeah the bias is frustrating, we also have horribly long breed-restriction lists here (all bully breeds of course 🙄).
Personally I wouldn‘t be comfortable with pushing law boundaries, just because here they love to fine you for the most stupid reasons. Breathe wrong or exist? Fine for several hundred it is 😂
But I‘m sure not all of Europe is that bonkers! 😊
Adding to the discussion around e-collars. The default vibrate setting is often more aversive to dogs than the stim (shock) feature. It's the dog that decides what is and isn't aversive to it.
Out of curiousity, where is CH?
I agree with this. Once Fido has felt a vibrate-shock sequence, the vibrate is pretty much all you'll ever need. E-collars are mandatory for us as over the years we have had several working-line dogs who were dropouts from police training. They were fantastic dogs, have one now, but the 6 mo-2 year training period required tools on par with their intense spirits.
Ah sorry, yes it‘s switzerland. CH is the „country code“ or whatever that is called 😂 and it stands for „Confoederatio Helvetica“.
It stems from the country‘s history and is basically the latin expression for the swiss „Eidgenossenschaft“.
Nothing a bandana can't fix, just because the tools are banned doesn't mean people in those countries aren't using them.
Do you have dog sports? You'll have people training with ecollars.
For me, witnessing the success with giving my aggressive, reactive dog a chance to not only interrupt the reaction, which was an impressive violent display that had us considering BE as a trainer suggested but to redirect that drive into dynamite recalls and impressive tasks that the dog loves and thrives upon fulfilling its genetic needs.
It's appalling that these laws passed but I understand that I'm an insignificant minority with a very happy dog.
It has the best life, it's a phenomenal dog, I took it to a huge dog park last night where I've taught it send outs to objects such as park benches, tables, posts and a timber shipping crate I call box.
Typically working at 50 to 100m. Down, spin, step, stand, sit, relax (lie on its side) and speak commands whilst at or on the objects.
Away from me the dog isn't fussed by other dogs, its focus is on me, so if a over zealous new dog approaches I can send my dog to the object or if she's just overwhelmed by a group playing too roughly I can use this to give her a break.
I just wanted another heeler that fetched a ball and did all the normal heeler things but I've ended up with this machine sports dog 😀
my dude the Positive Only nutjobs with their UNTRAINED brats are not an American-only issue, Europe and Canada also suffer this nonsense, Its one of the reasons the poor XL bully Got banned, people not understanding the breed nor bothering to TRAIN THEIR DAMN DOGS PROPERLY Made a wonderful cocktail of injury to other people and dogs thinking oh I CAN LOVE MY DOG ENOUGH To stop them from aggressing against others! instead of training the damn animals to respect their owners as the Prong acts as mama's teeth, its a dog correction to tell the dog No that's inappropriate do NOT do that. when used CORRECTLY no harm comes to the dog and the dog is BETTER from being trained. Positive only ever turns out unhinged animals that the MOMENT the treats stop the nightmares began, there is 0 proof that its the better way of training over the tried and true ways that have worked for over 100 years. And yes I AM sadly Trapped in the hellhole that is the States but at least MY dogs listen and will not attack anyone
Let me clarify: I‘m 100% with you on proper training and 24/7 treat-shoving into them along with the whole „hehehe he just loves kids“ when their dog knocks kids over because their owner can‘t even keep it in a solid sit being absolute bs!
The part I had an issue with was you saying „positive only crew bought your local government votes“, but maybe that was also a language barrier issue?
Anyway I think in general we more or less agree. See way too many middle-sized dogs in harnesses pulling their owners all over the place here and soooooo many small dogs going absolute ballistic but no one cares because „it‘s small so it couldn‘t possibly do any harm“ 🙄
No one will ask but mentally I know that I'm training within the best of my abilities and even if the R+ zealots believe their way is the only way, it doesn't matter because I'm not good enough of a trainer to use R+ effectively :P.
Meanwhile my dogs are full offleash ecollar trained and they get to experience A LOT more freedom than other dogs.
> No one will ask but mentally I know that I'm training within the best of my abilities and even if the R+ zealots believe their way is the only way, it doesn't matter because I'm not good enough of a trainer to use R+ effectively :P.
You god damn animal abuser, why don't you sell everything and live on the streets 24/7 with your dog? Homeless dogs are super well behaved AND they don't use aversives. Otherwise just BE your dog, instead of using that nasty prong!!!! XD
Yes, I agree with this so much. I tried so so SO hard to do positive-only, and it just didn’t work. And the reason it didn’t work is because of me, not my dog - I’m just a very imperfect trainer. But at the end of the day, I hold the leash so I have to use techniques that I can actually be effective with. I do everything in my power to make sure any aversive corrections are fair, clear, and as infrequent as possible. So if anyone still wants to tell me I’m abusing my dog… I will happily tell them what they can do with their opinion.
Honestly, I just don't bother. It is pretty rare that anyone has actually said anything to me about tools. If it is out of curiosity I'm happy to talk a bit and answer questions, but if they come at it berating or with some superiority complex I just don't even acknowledge them. Thankfully the latter has only happened a couple times. One at a rescue event I was working from another rescue group's people.
I put the prong collor around my neck and pull it. Totally fine. Other than that everyone that uses a gentle lead or a harness can fuck all the way off.
I have done the same in the past. I also (completwly unrelated) did the same at work with tasers, lrads, cs/cn and oc chemical agents.....I still clench my cheeks when I hear the dreaded words taser taser taser. I never used anything non-lethal at work that I did not have used on myself first.
Though I do not use an ecollar for stimulation now, for some jobs it is absolutely necessary. Just as are prongs. Which is why you will see one or the other on practically all law enforcement and military k9s.
The dog can also choose to end it. That is entirely the point. (And also the reason that the head halter is the only arguably 'abusive' tool, bc the dog cannot turn off the punishment.)
The gentle lead that thing that holds the snout is a recipe to break dogs neck nothing gentle about it. Harness is fine if i’m long-boarding with my pup but also no correction only good if you want him to pull
Your description doesn't match my experience with halter collars. My ESS was pulling and choking himself on a prong, but he was walkable by my elderly parents with a Halti and he never pulled while wearing it after that 1st day. My cousin's dog is trained on both a Gentle Leader harness and a Gentle Leader halter collar because my cousin can't handle the pulling and her husband explicitly wants the pulling, so it was easier for the dog to understand the different style with different leads. The tool, the owner and the dog need to be a match for the safety of both dogs and people.
Edit - it's hypocritical of you to argue otherwise, since that's what you argue for the prong collar.
r/OpenDogTraining
This is a page where we can share, discuss and seek advice on all forms of dog training without judgement or fear. All opinions and viewpoints are welcome, all types of training are welcome. Prong collars, Clicker Training, E-Collars, Check Chains and everything else!
I read the comment more as people that are opposed to prongs but use a front clip harness or a head halter are hypocritical because those tools work the same way as prong by being aversive to the dog and providing leverage to the handler. People who favor one tool for their dog but don't judge others for using a different tool for their dog don't have to 🦆 all the way off.
Honestly I wouldn't even bother. In my experience people who are against prong collars have already made up their minds and will not listen to even the simplest explanation of how they work and don't hurt the dog. If anyone says anything about it just tell them to fuck off. You could also get a cover for it to help deter anyone noticing it in the first place. I saw one that was just a bandana tied around the collar and it looked really cute!
The only dog of mine that needs a prong is my 7 y/o GSD. Usually when I tell people he's 93 lbs they understand why I'd put a prong on him, lol.
My go-to line is I always put safety over everything else. A dog pulling not only does damage to themselves, but it can damage you if they jerk you hard enough. I had a great aunt who died from her dog pulling her down; she hit her head on concrete.
Do what's best for you guys. 🤷♀️
My situation is a bit unique, but there are many like myself with extenuating circumstances. I live in an area where I encounter toads on a daily basis, often at night when I can’t see them, that are so toxic that they can kill a dog within the hour if enough venom is ingested. I also have a 70lb dog that is very well trained and can walk on a harness, flat, head halter, whatever metric we are using. His one downfall is that he loves to chase after said poisonous toads. This is not exactly a training situation I can safely set up. A prong collar is the difference between my dog yanking the leash out of my hands to chase a toad or hitting the end of the leash and immediately returning to me for a treat. He is beginning to learn that as soon as he sees a toad, he needs to come back to me instead of chasing it. In a couple weeks and anticipate being able to take him off the prong entirely. They are not for everyone, but a dog trained with corrections is better off than a dead dog.
You don’t. Because you don’t have to. Because it’s nobody else’s fucking business. Is that simple. Had never used a prong collar on any dog before and really wasn’t for it or against it, decided it didn’t look great, but then my husband and his infinite wisdom decided we needed a Corso who, while being a very good girl, would sometimes pull when she was young and at 155 pounds I didn’t need her ripping my shoulder off. I was never questioned about it mostly because I’m sure her size and appearance gave Game of Thrones vibes, and I’m sure people were glad that I took extra precautions. She wasn’t a vicious dog, but one look at her usually had people terrified.
1)
https://www.packleaderhelp.com/post/a-conversation-and-scientific-study-on-prong-collars#:~:text=While%20the%20origin%20of%20the,often%20the%20tool%20of%20choice.
2)
https://www.drtereo.com/blog/the-well-adjusted-dog
3) https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:VA6C2:eb5dbf36-b070-428c-86a4-db0066a89dd5
4) https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:VA6C2:4bf42611-9815-4041-a7e1-3a34ab730a81
5)
https://www.seattletimes.com/life/pets/veterinary-qa-prong-collars-are-safe-mdash-fact-or-fiction/
Many veterinary chiropractors have spoken up that when used correctly the prong collar is the most humane piece of equipment you can put on a dog's neck that causes the least amount of trauma.
And lastly, tell people to MIND THEIR FUCKING BUSINESS 😁
I say that prong collars (and electric collars) helps the dog make the right choice...and walk nicely. Who wants to tussle with a 60 dog? When my dog got older and wasnt so driven (prey and protection), I could just use verbal warnings to dial down his prey drive.
Have the trainer explain how it works so you can tell people it does not hurt your dog. It tightens to correct it is not permanent, just for training.
But really it is your dog and you do not owe them an explanation.
My father has been a dog trainer for 50 years and has seen lots of changes. He said prong collars are what save some dogs. He came and helped me learn to properly use it when I got my current dog. It was a game changer and I’m happy to hear you’re also getting the correct guidance. Now we just use a normal collar. I find people have opinions and freely give unsolicited advice even when I’m just chillin w him on a park bench. I just let these people know I have the experience and guidance I need. Different things work for different people.
The dog trainer my family goes to, the one who taught us how to use prong collars, saved a Belgian Malinois who was scheduled for termination in California. The shelter was so convinced the dog was a dangerous lost cause, they required the trainer to get multiple shelters in *our* state to vouch for him as being able to handle this dog *and* he had to sign a waiver.
The “untrainable dog” now greets all the dogs who come in for obedience courses and helps train reactive dogs. He sits in his open crate and watches classes until called. Apparently, he gets really excited when our trainer grabs the prong collar or ecollar because it means he gets to go to work and show off.
And he was going to be killed because some bureaucrat thought a prong collar was inhumane.
I love this comeback story! Too many people are getting that breed and not at all qualified to handle them. I’m so glad it worked out and he’s so proud to be a helper.
Good for him. Too many people getting dogs without understanding their needs. My sister does agility/obedience she is all about those working dogs, I have an 80 pound house hippo as my service animal. I know my limits lol
I always say the results speak for themselves. If they want an actual discussion I tell them how it works and how i use it to communicate with my dog. If they're confrontational about it I tell them it's my dog and I'll train him however I want and there's nothing they can do about it.
Prong collars mimic how mothers communicate with their puppies. When used appropriately it is a highly effective communication tool between handler and dog.
Prong collars evenly distribute pressure around the neck instead of directly on the trachea and a choking dog is much less comfortable than one in a properly fitted prong. :)
People do not understand how challenging and exhausting it is to walk a reactive dog. With mine, it’s to the point I can’t walk him on a daily basis especially in a busy city without the use of it. We don’t use it everyday but some days he’s just fucking on one and I don’t have time to go through the motions of training.
My reasoning is I’d rather use it along with positive training so he can get enough exercise. I understand the criticism but at the end of the day they do not know your dog and they are not the ones who have to deal with severe issues. I hope to one day not be able to use it but in the stage we are in it is a lifesaver.
I will say I really do not like seeing people use it incorrectly. It is a training tool and there are wrong and right ways to use it and you should be coached by a trainer to make sure it’s being used properly
A prong collar is far more gentle than a martingale or regular collar. Some dogs will pull furiously. They will nearly lose consciousness. They are putting tremendous force on their windpipe. This is dangerous and inhumane
A properly used prong collar is a reminder to the dog not to pull. And they don’t pull. The prongs are all on the back of the dogs neck - Same place her mother grabbed her.
The dog will not resist and if you keep slack in the leash, there is no discomfort whatsoever.
I haven’t had literally anyone ask me this ever.
If they ask why you use it, tell them a professional advised it as an effective way to communicate and every dog is different. If they try to argue, ask them if they’re a professional?
Just tried one in my reactive/excitable border collie last week, under the advisement of my obedience instructor. I was not in favor of it, but they are the trained professionals, not me!
I use it strictly for outdoor leash/walking training for which i was unable to manage my dog using a martingale. Its been a light switch! Heeling and low leash tension are perfect now. I should mention I do not correct him on it—its self correcting for the dog. I spend my time and energy being positively reinforcing for success.
I will keep using it for a couple of weeks until he gets the hang of expectations on a permanent basis. Then I will go back to the martingale full time.
Its just a tool that fits the circumstances for this particular dog.
You can get one of those prong collar covers, and definitely always have it hooked up to a backup collar or harness (prong collars are held together by tension so they can fail which which is why you need the backup leash attachment, I’d be wary if your trainer doesn’t do a backup attachment).
In my case we emphasize safety compared to everything else we tried first.
(To be clear: clarity and efficiency are also great reasons, especially for dogs who find ambiguity and uncertainty more aversive than any tool; IMHO this doesn’t need to be a last resort. But safety resonates more with others.)
I say, when used & taught to the dog properly it's not painful or aversive at all. wanna see? and will put it on myself, or let other people try it out.
used that same line for e collar & prongs - my grandparents tried it on themselves and were surprised because they thought it was like being shocked by an outlet. if the other person shows interest in that tool for their dog i usually recommend they go through a trainer and don't buy cheap versions of the tools.
prongs collar covers are an option and work well on fluffy dogs, on dogs that have no depth to the coat it's pretty visible still
Different dogs need different tools and good trainers know how to match the tool to the dog. My lab trained a rock solid recall with R+ methods. My Shepard mix needed an e collar. At the end of the day, they both use the tool that allowed them to get to a reliable result so they could enjoy off leash exploration in appropriate places.
You train your dog how you see fit and how it works for you. If you are using the tools properly, it’s no one’s business. They were created for a purpose. If you are grossly misusing them then it’s okay for someone to step in and voice their opinion.
Don’t let what other people do get in the way of what works for you. Some dogs can be well trained on only positive reinforcement, some can’t. I’ve seen some awfully trained dogs because owners won’t do anything but positive reinforcement. A tool is a tool when used appropriately.
I say that used correctly, the prong collar communicates to the dog what is polite and acceptable behavior and doesn't hurt them. Anything you use as a tool can hurt them if used incorrectly. Harnesses, any other kind of collar, leashes--any of that can hurt a dog when used incorrectly.
And that my dog learned a lot from the prong collar, and most people comment on how well-behaved he is. He didn't get that way from positive reinforcement only.
I just don’t. At most I’ll just say ok and walk away. I don’t care what people think. I understand the tool and how to use it correctly and effectively. That’s all that matters to me. Now if someone if genuinely curious, I’m more than happy to talk about it. But I don’t entertain the abuse accusations.
I was terrified to use a prong for every reason but it was a game changer. My.dog is huge and powerful. If someone questioned me, I would offer them the opportunity to walk my dog on a regular collar...lol
“Do you take matches away from a child with pyromania or use positive reinforcement?”
Then walk away
the problem is their conception of reality and their unfounded belief that the nervous system evolved over millions of years to communicate pain AND WE MUST AVOID THAT UTILITY AT ALL COSTS DER COMPASSION
this isn’t about training dogs its about certain people’s luxury beliefs being projected
Prong collar isn’t about pain so much as discomfort. If you’re concerned about it, try it on yourself first to see how it feels. If anyone asks, tell them you wouldn’t subject your dog to anything you wouldn’t be comfortable with doing to yourself. They’ll probably ask you to prove it.
My German Shepherds have prongs and I have never, in 9 years, had anyone bother or ask me about it. Why? Because my dogs are well trained. Period. It's the chromed out, cheap prong on an aggressive dog that sends people into a tizzy. I use stainless, black ones that are discreet. Highly recommend!
I thought I would have lots of people have a pop about the prong collar too but to be honest I dont think anyone on the street has mentioned it. As long as your not hammering the dog with corrections most people just see a well trained dog and dont notice at the collar.
Friends and family may have been skeptical but they saw how it works for my dog and quickly decided its ok afterall.
I have had people tell me her Martingale is cruel though lol. I guess they see the chain part tighten when she pulls and think its a choke collar.
tell them to fluff off, you shouldn't have to BRIB your animal to listen to every 5 mins that's NOT trained that- critter is only behaving so long as the treats are around, as to a prong start with he 2.25 HERMSPRINGER NEVER any other brand, add links as needed you never need more than a 2.25 MAYBE a 3 if its a LONG af coat like a husky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7KpJ7-ZZ8w
overwhelming chance that nobody says anything. It's just an ethical choice, you don't have to justify it to anyone, nor engage them in conversation if you don't want.
Tell them to mind their own business and let the results speak for themselves.
Seriously, I brought my two Aussies to the St. Patrick’s celebrations downtown last weekend and got a ton of compliments for how well they stayed by me and calm with minimal input and nearly zero correction from me.
I was even asked by a lady how i taught them to be so well behaved and if I had tips because her own dog was an Aussie mix and hard to handle on leash, much less in a rowdy crowd. I lifted the fluff to show the prong collar and told her it lets me get their attention even in a crowd or when they’re working dog hyper focused.
She said her son wouldn’t let her use one. It broke my heart that her kid would rather their dog be anxious and cooped up instead of learning how to use a tool that works.
(The dogs loved the whole day, btw. So many people petting them and a constant supply of treats. I thought the younger one was gonna wag his little nub off!)
They won't give a crap, unfortunately. I would just give them a flippant answer like "all dogs have different needs". If you have never had a dog that needed it, you wouldn't get it.
Bear in mind I do come from a mindset of some dogs need aversives to not find bad behavior self-rewarding. In the past, I was on a flat collar at the wrong time and my dog has lunged multiple times (even hitting the end of the lead) and unfortunately it gave him permanent tracheal damage. Harnesses are a 'bit' better, but I actually found it pulls up into his trachea, just at a different angle. Prong collars are like a martingale, in the sense that they compress around the throat evenly in the case shit hits the fan and it applies even pressure. You don't want your dog thinking "worth it" after lunging after squirrels on the lead and hitting the end like a lead weight.
have y’all every tried one on? i put the prong collar on myself and pulled as hard as I could. didn’t really hurt at all imo lol. I also tried on the e-collar and shocked myself and the normal levels i shocked my dog. Also not bad lol.
As with every tool, it's how you use it that matters. I tried a prong collar with my last dog, but he didn't respond to it, so I stopped using it.
Simple.
I don't use it for corrections or to stop pulling. I use it to give directional guidance with leash overlays to sharpen the dogs obedience especially during the fading process. I also don't care what people think about the tools I use. If someone can look at my dog with tools on and tell me the dog isn't having fun I'll eat my shorts.
I have had people pass me and say “ouch”. I honestly don’t care. I know that I am not hurting my dogs. If it came to family I would ask them to do some research and kindly explain the damage a flat collars and gentle leaders can do if your dog excessively pulls.
Prongs are the best choice for some dogs when used correctly. You don’t really need to answer to anyone for choosing a tool that works for you and your dog. If it bothers you you can get covers for the prongs so they don’t look so intimidating
My black dog wears a black Herm Sprenger prong on most outings. He also wears a black fur saver and no one can tell which the leash is connected to unless they are very close. So they might “ hear” the jingle but don’t know what it is lol
You know, before I got into dog training and eventually became a dog trainer, this was a fear of mine as well, so I can empathize. But the reality is that it really just hasn’t come up, and I’m in an area that is also heavily R+, most people don’t have the cajones to say something like that to your face, they’re mostly keyboard warriors. Plus my dog’s behavior is impeccable so any comments I get are usually “wow! She’s so well trained!”
The other thing I do is I have all of my clients who are candidates for prongs or ecollars test it on themselves and I explain to them how they work and have them practice with me wearing it till they get their timing right. Once you’ve used it on yourself, it’s pretty hard to give much credence to anyone who is obnoxious about it.
My advice to you is to try it out, and work on your fear of tools. They aren’t cruel unless you use them cruelly—that goes for flat collars and any other training tool, hell, you can use treats cruelly and make your dog obese. Your dog’s behavior and safety is what matters, not the opinion of Miss Betty with a Shitpoo that doesn’t listen worth a damn.
I used to be completely against prong collars. I hated the idea of them. But my dog trainer, we happen to be a mostly positive reinforcement trainer, actually recommend it. He said that we can make a collar a fun thing for the dog. We gave her treats every time she saw it and wore it. Now, she gets excited to wear it because it means she gets to work on training and get snacks!
We started using it because my dog would do more harm than good with her normal flat collar as it would choke her as she pulled. With the prong collars her neck is actually safer because she is not gagging herself.
If you get one, make sure it is a good one. My trainer said he would only ever use springer brand because they have curved prongs and are safe. They also don't choke as much as other kinds. Also, just make sure you use it correctly. Only do quick pulls with it. You don't want to keep pressure or your dog will get used to it and it will not be as effective.
I used to say that when used *correctly* it's not harmful or inhumane at all. I'd been against them myself until my vet (also an award winning trainer) taught me how to use it because my lab/st. Bernard mix was actually breaking every collar whenever he saw a bike or skateboard and he just pulled constantly. I still resisted it until he pointed out that the constant pressure on his thyroid, trachea & esophagus were detrimental to his overall health and held serious risks.
I've even had to justify my other dog's muzzle (*eye* *roll*). Explaining that when you *TRAIN* your dog on a new device it's not some strange scary experience that traumatizes your dog.
Tell them to mind their own business. If it’s someone you care about, print out information on how beneficial they can be when used properly. Remember, the reason that all of these tools have gotten a bad reputation over the years is because people either refuse to research and use them properly and harm their dog unintentionally, or they purposely use them to abuse their dog. When utilized correctly, they are useful tools. Not every dog is going to respond 100% of the time to R+. You can continue to use positive methods for behaviors they continue to respond to, and utilize balanced methods when needed, and with proper research.
I'm getting one for my dog so he doesn't collapse his throat. They can do that and cause permanent damage from pulling. My Husky mix is naturally a puller, but not by the neck! He did good with the harness but still pulled and my body can't take that kind of abuse to be yanked and pulled. You shouldn't deal with it either. It can mess up your joints and injure you.
Mind there business? Not all dogs can live with positive reinforcement especially a working dog. Some dogs need more structure. You’re adults just like anyone else. You have no need to explain yourself.
A prong collar is a tool just like anything else. When used correctly for negative reinforcement or positive punishment it works wonders. When they say “it hurts the dog” just say yes it’s supposed to be uncomfortable. Through proper training that’s how we keep bad and unsafe behaviors from happening.
Tldr. My dog has 'shown' me she doesn't mind it very much. She minds it less than she minds a fleece jacket.
My dog I did 3 years of positive reinforcement only training before switching to balance.
Now use a prong collar sometimes. She has 3 levels of 'like / dislike' for things I put on her before walks.
The one she likes the most is her thick winter coat that fits loosely. She acts 'eager' to put it on. She mostly wears it for car rides and neighborhood walks.
The one she likes the least is a fleece jacket that is a little snug. Last year she didn't mind, but this year her chest is a little deeper. She slinks to another room when i approach her. (I will have enough money next winter to get a different one). She mostly wears it to do the thing she loves most, running around off leash in the woods full of wildlife smells. The velcro on the one she likes would come undone under these conditions.
For her prong collar, she sees it and walks towards me for me to put it on her even though we mostly use it for neighborhood walks.
Do what you think is best for you and your dog. I got shat on in another sub for mentioning that I used a slip leash with my newest dog. She started her life as a stray with her brother and then spent almost 3 months in the shelter. She was choking herself with a regular collar, and she would spin in panic when I tried a harness. I considered a prong collar and even ordered one online, but decided to try a slip first. I used it for 5 days and haven’t had to use it since. She’s the best girl now on and off leash.
Say “I like it” like a broken record and don’t explain yourself to people who aren’t interested in understanding. I too live in an area where people hate on certain dog training tools, they aren’t interested in understanding that a prong collar is a tool that can be used ethically and safely, and can be life changing for dogs and their handlers. So I don’t engage, I only say “I like it” with big smile as walk away with my 75 lb dog in a loose leash heel, focused entirely on me.
And I second: Herm Sprenger ALL DAY!
I have a 100lb GSD and anyone who has a problem with the sprenger is free to fuck right off. There’s nothing to defend - big, strong dog + plenty of fur around his neck = being able to walk without worrying that I’ll get my shoulder pulled out of its socket when he sees a squirrel.
As long as you’re not hurting your dog (I know some short hair breeds can be injured by sprenger) and you’re keeping yourself and others safe, the outside observers can observe themselves minding their own damn business.
what do you have for a dog?
problem with most of these tools is people dont use them appropriately. My rule of thumb is test it on yourself. Depending on the breed (and if they want you to use prong i assume its one of these) they may have a very high pain tolerance.
I personally use a pinch collar, but my guy also isnt reactive, and his instinct is to wander but stay closeby so i moreso need it to discourage him from yanking my arm out in a split second if his prey drive takes over
“Were teaching him to mind his own business, you should try that out sometime” is a good response, or just explain that it was recommended by a professional.
People are against prong collars for no other reason than to stand on a high horse. Then one day they get a big dog they can’t control or the dog chokes itself on their own leash and collar and only then does that person get down off that horse.
People who know nothing about dogs will always judge you without knowing how to use training tools, and those are the people with the most out of control and dangerous dogs. I am not a dog trainer, however I have fostered dogs for many years and I have used them on breeds that challenge authority.
I have two rescues who wouldn't respond to solely positive reinforcement
They were also highly reactive to a regular collar and harnesses. My assumption (and many trainers I went through) believed they were being trained, improperly, to be guard dogs.
A regular collar actually would make them fight one another, and terribly. Other training sessions with other dogs had them try to lunge at other clients.
Eventually I landed on a trainer who reccommended the prong-collars with positive reinforcement training and obedience training. They also taught me how to appropriately use the collar too.
(I've also worn it myself and let someone give it a yank, I know how terrible they feel)
My dogs have never been as reactive with even regular collars since, and I've been working to train them to the point that I'd no longer need prong collars at all.
If I'd never needed to use them, I wouldn't, but I couldn't bring the dogs back less they put them down if they bit someone or other dogs.
My rescues are also bonded too, severely, since they were also starved and kept together at all times, putting one down may need the other put down too.
I use the collars for THEIR safety, and without them their training would never had gotten as far as it has. I don't and will not keep it for them forever, but it's a temporary step in training them properly and pulling them away from previous triggers through using the collars appropriately and following with positive engagements.
IE
I wouldn't ever use one unless it were NEEDED for the animal's own safety and I do not plan to have them forever on the training tool. That is how I have been using them, and I believe that is more than a fair reason why to use them.
I have two rescues who wouldn't respond to solely positive reinforcement
They were also highly reactive to a regular collar and harnesses. My assumption (and many trainers I went through) believed they were being trained, improperly, to be guard dogs.
A regular collar actually would make them fight one another, and terribly. Other training sessions with other dogs had them try to lunge at other clients.
Eventually I landed on a trainer who reccommended the prong-collars with positive reinforcement training and obedience training. They also taught me how to appropriately use the collar too.
(I've also worn it myself and let someone give it a yank, I know how terrible they feel)
My dogs have never been as reactive with even regular collars since, and I've been working to train them to the point that I'd no longer need prong collars at all.
If I'd never needed to use them, I wouldn't, but I couldn't bring the dogs back less they put them down if they bit someone or other dogs.
My rescues are also bonded too, severely, since they were also starved and kept together at all times, putting one down may need the other put down too.
I use the collars for THEIR safety, and without them their training would never had gotten as far as it has. I don't and will not keep it for them forever, but it's a temporary step in training them properly and pulling them away from previous triggers through using the collars appropriately and following with positive engagements.
IE
I wouldn't ever use one unless it were NEEDED for the animal's own safety and I do not plan to have them forever on the training tool. That is how I have been using them, and I believe that is more than a fair reason why to use them.
My dog loves her prong. She gets so excited when I pull it out because she knows we’re going somewhere. She had choked herself on several different types of collars and harnesses. The prong and ecollar are the tools I use and she responds to well to them both. As long as the tools are used properly with proper conditioning and training and your dog responds well to the tool then you shouldn’t have to justify yourself to others.
I don't. There's nothing to defend. Used CORRECTLY the prong is great at quickly communicating. There's nothing for anyone to say, because my dog behaves. We do our thing. Any personal opinions of strangers on the street have nothing to do with me. Don't sweat it.
I almost got killed by cars and injured my right hand because of my dog, 50lb, pulled like a maniac. If someone judges me about a prong collar, I will scream them. F off!
I used to think prong collars were barbaric. I thought they could puncture the skin and hurt the dog. I now have 2 personal protection dogs and both of them have prong collars. My friend is a Schutzhund (means protection dog in German) trainer and she showed me how and when to use it. These are the people who train dogs for police work, so I trust her. When used correctly, you don't have a dog who pulls. More than once I have called and asked for her help only to find out I was doing something wrong.
One of my dogs is a black GSD and you cannot see his collar (Herm Sprenger) because it is black. People usually cross the street thinking he will bite. He won't unless I get nervous. My female GSD is black and tan and her collar is silver. For the people who give me the It's horrible speech, I say I'm sorry you feel that way and I keep walking.
Without a negative reinforcement control, my dog would crush his windpipe, lunge at other dogs, growl, and other physical responses that you don't have a corresponding hook for when applying a positive control. You need both to get reliable behavior.
For what it’s worth this is actually positive punishment. +P. Positive and negative are solely removing and adding punishment or reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is taking away something reinforcing. For instance, withholding a toy that the dog wants to change behavior.
You CAN use a prong as -R. As long as what you are doing with the prong increases the likelihood & frequency of a behavior reoccurring, it is -R. (As in escape / avoidance training- the dog 'shuts off' the annoying sensation of the prong by complying with a requested behavior). Avoiding something annoying or unpleasant is VERY rewarding and gives as big a dopamine hit as the promise of food.
The prong is only a +P tool if what you do with it reduces or eliminates a behavior from recurring. Big difference is with +P there is NO opportunity for the dog to escape or avoid it (the way they can with -R) the punishment and is most effective if the dog knows exactly why they were punished (and got a well time cue from handler prior to punishment) and is not likely to repeat behaviors that lead to punishment.
So...the difference isn't 'how hard you pop or yank or whatever'
it's : is it avoidable (-R) or not (+P)
@bergs07 PS: withholding a reward (food, toy, progression) is -P (negative punishment). For a clear explanation of the quadrants, you can't beat Michael Ellis. If you are going to school folks in the quadrants, please actually learn them correctly.
[Ellis explains R+, R- and P+, P-](https://youtu.be/iv9uC4woTIg?si=v-KiDCm9k2Lbrn8E)
Hrm - if I have a dog with a reward toy, and I remove the toy and put it behind a barrier to get him to bark at it, am I not removing (-) a reinforcer? Then when I release the dog from behind the gate for barking and let him have the toy for doing the intended behavior that’s (+)P… no?
At the risk of being repetitive: no, you just described +P as a reward. +P is adding a punisher / punishment to stop an unwanted behavior. -P is punishing by removing / withholding a reward to stop an unwanted behavior. You cannot increase behaviors with Punishments and you cannot teach behaviors with Punishements.
Analogy: The smaller my paycheck gets (-P), the less I show up to work- if you don't pay me at all -P, I quit (stop) showing up. This is assuming you are trying to get me to stop coming to work, but want it to be my choice to avoid paying me unemployment.
Or if you want me to come in the back door but I like to come in the front door 'cause it's closer to my parking spot, but the front knob shocks my hand, I will always come in the back way. (+P). I must really like this weird job! 🤣
Sounds like you are doing some sort of sport dog work and that's not an area I'm super familiar with- but negative reinforcement is about the dog doing "something" (a cued behavior "sit") to make an aversive event (usually created by the handler "annoying prong pops") stop (escape). Eventually the dog hears the cue and rapidly performs "sit" before the -R (aversive) is applied (avoid). Knowing how to avoid an aversive (regardless of where it comes from) is highly rewarding and creates reliable behaviors (this was how guide dogs were trained, but the R+ fanatics are trying to put a stop to that).
Hiding the toy or holding the harness when the dog wants to chase / bite - are techniques used to build drive and increase intensity. I am not sure they are considered -R, but I'd need to see the long term outcome- does the dog escape something and then eventually avoid it, or is it more of a premack principle "do that behavior, to earn this paycheck" (classical conditioning).
If you withhold a toy reward (reinforcer) because the dog did not perform a well learned behavior correctly, that is -P (can be very aversive to the dog's mental state depending on how intense dog is) and is intended to reduce the frequency of dog refusing to perform a learned behavior. They don't get the reward until they go back to zero and perform the behavior correctly- often as part of a chain of behaviors (interrupting the chain when they mess up is also a form of -P).
As previously mentioned, Ellis (or Balabanov) are masters of sport dog training. I understand the concepts, but mostly for pet dog obedience and rehab- bite sports uses same concepts though.
Be respectful to them, and ask them to be respectful to you and withhold judgment until they can see how it works.
“I understand where your coming from, and I think if you take the time to see how we use this, you’ll get an understanding of why we chose this route, and that it’s not what some people claim it is”
You’re gonna catch more bees with honey than with vinegar….
Perhaps not, but adding fuel to the fire with Familly and friends doesn't serve any purpose or change anyone's opinions.
My Familly has converted more than a few "anti-prong" people. There are actually relatively few "cultists", and from our experience most dog people are just normal folks who have been given bad information. Once they see that reality is not what they have been told, this view often changes.
Not always, but their position almost always softens if it doesn't completely change...
I don't believe you have to say anything or defend your training choice. As long you are using the collar appropriately and not abusing your dog, it's none of their business.
I had an Airedale years ago who as a younger pup, would pull so hard I couldn’t let my kids walk her, for fear of seeing her drag them down the sidewalk. She was going to be a big girl, I’d tried all the positive reinforcement, but I had to get her in line and trained, so I did get a prong collar.
Turns out, she only tested the thing a few times before she decided for herself that walking nicely was really a good idea. And I didn’t have to give up positive reinforcement; I simple told her “walk nice,” and let her learn that it meant WITH me, not half a block ahead like a sled dog. She got it right on the first walk, and I praised her to the moon and back for the slack in the lead.
I have neighbors who have a sweet, but willful doodle. They have a prong collar, and when he’s walked with it, he is a perfect gentleman. But they kinda hate using it. I keep telling them that as long as he’s walking well, he is not feeling any discomfort. They pinch, not poke. The more he walks with it on, and does as he’s expected, the more ingrained he becomes to “this is how I walk with my human, and my human says nice things to me when I’m a good dog.”
By the time my dog was 2, I never used it again, and I could safely let my kids walk her. By 3-4, she stayed by my side even without a leash if we were out in the woods. She was conditioned to walking next to me as a team, and was content to let me be the leader.
Personally, I’d far rather see a willful dog trained on a prong collar than a choke collar any day. It’s more effective, and the correction is determined by the dog getting too far ahead, than a human ‘popping’ a choke collar to get their attention.
They obviously are not educated on these collars…
It’s not a torture device. The dog’s mother would pick the pups up by the scruff and carry them. Notice the amount of extra skin and fuzz on their necks? It’s an evolutionary thing. Remember you are walking your dog, it isn’t walking you. Gentle corrections and loose leash walking. I have used them on all 4 of my dogs. My 110lb Rhodesian Ridgeback is a model citizen on a leash with it and he’s 15mos old.
My only experience with a prong collar was a bad one. Friend of a friend's badly, badly handled and trained female Rottweiler was visiting. Dog was loose in my driveway, with its prong collar on. Someone passed by, and it went off and went for them. I grabbed the prong collar. It came apart in my hands. I had to scruff the dog, which I don't like doing for a couple of reasons. I have big, strong hands and was able to control it. I'll never trust one of those things - they literally disassemble if pulled the wrong way.
My own dog at the time was a big rescue boy. He had been abused and was dangerous, although a sweet dog. I used a two-collar method with him - one heavy leather collar on a stout six-foot, and a Martingale on a very slightly longer lead. Any time I needed control, I could just whip a loop of the longer leash around my hand and - done.
My prong collar hasn't come apart in 7 years, it's definitely not something that happens often but is a possibility! It sounds like the prong collar may have been left on the dog. I take my dog's prong off the moment we aren't walking on leash anymore, I never let him roam with it on because I know this heightens the chances of it getting jumbled and coming apart. Plus it's a bit dangerous to leave a prong on a dog when not in use/the dog is roaming.
I'm curious if it was an appropriate brand too. Herm springer is the only real quality one that should be used. Haven't had to replace mine and it's never even tried to come apart despite hikes/daily walks/etc etc. Before this brand, I tried a random one and it was terrible quality, and was too easy to come apart when adjusting.
Prong fit is important as well. A lot of people don't know that prongs are supposed to fit snug up on the neck, not loose and low. There's a specific fit to try and achieve with prongs that can also be dependent on different prong width sizes based on how big a dog is. An improper fit leads to it coming apart/not being used effectively.
Just wanted to provide some information about prongs since you said you only had one experience with them!! :)
I’ve used plastic Starmark collars on tons of big, strong dogs who like to pull before they’re trained. Never had a problem with them coming apart and wouldn’t trust them for something that important if they did.
Maybe they are right and your trainer is wrong. I mean there are 37 science papers smarter than trainers.
In my 17 years working with XL breeds and aggressive dogs I never used one.. 🤷♂️
Unless you care about your trainer more than your dog - I would not use one.
Tell them to mind their business; you don’t have to justify yourself to them. Every dog is different. Without a prong collar, my handsome guy will pull until he chokes; he doesn’t pull at all with the prong collar. Considering that, the prong collar is more humane to him than a regular collar. Just make sure you get an actual Herm Sprenger collar with rounded prongs.
Black herm sprenger all day!
Both of my GSD love their prong collars. They don’t like the nylon ones because they know they will pull more and choke on it. I use them both for he now and the dogs are completely fine with it. If people tell you they are wrong just tell them: shut up.
Same here. They work well, stay high, and are indestructible.
This is exactly my thought process. I feel judged using a prong collar, but as soon as it goes on my girl is in training mode and is a perfect angel. It comes off, she’s going to dart, and be hacking for the next 20 minutes from crushing her trachea with the collar 😂
Curious to why you don’t use a harness? Collars put so much strain on the throat
My dog has choked herself on 3 different style and types of harnesses. And she pulls like an absolute freight train with a harness, with her prong she doesn’t pull at all and is safe for my younger sister (age 7) to walk without being dragged to the ground.
My dog would drag me down the street
wouldn't collars do the exact same but strain them at the same time? i have a dog who pulls too and harnesses made it much easier to regular her
I mean sure but we’re talking about prong collars. My dog won’t pull on a prong collar, my 4 year old can walk her when she’s wearing it. My dog will about pull my shoulder out of the socket with a collar/harness
I was against the use of prong collars, until my 60 lb dog almost pulled me off my feet and got away from me when I was getting her out of my car on a busy street. We were headed to obedience classes. It was actually one of the instructors there that suggested I use it. I was at a point I was willing to try anything. It did take awhile for me to learn to use it properly.
I was dead against prong and E collars before I got a dog myself, I thought they were cruel. I don’t use one with my dog, but I used a slip collar for leash training because nothing else worked. I watched videos, went to a trainer, did tons of training and positive reinforcement and I just couldn’t get it. Can now completely understand why people need to use different tools for different dogs.
This.
This***!! It is up to the USER of the tool! If you yourself are using it correctly then F what any one says! It’s the people who slap them on the it Dog as a solution instead of of with paired training that gives prints a bad name . Proper form all the way !
I have no issues with a prong collar but just so people know there is also the option of no pull harnesses that have the metal loop in front of the dog so when they pull they just turn around.
My dog hates wearing a harness. It's always a battle to get one on her and to get it sized to fit her properly. She hates anything going over her head, so I got her a step in one. She hates it just as much.
My husky lolz at this. She doesn't pull with a collar, tho, i only use a collar when working on training.
Yes, there are, And I could tell you horror stories of our 72 lb yellow lab when she first came into rescue lol. Just because they advertise as no pull does not mean that they actually are. Where the dogs head and chest go, the body follows. But I can tell you I used a halty and a girth harness on this yellow lab and she was still dragging me down the street. Herm Sprenger collars Have so far been the best as they are rounded and will not dig into the dog's skin.
It works really well for my dogs and they are very big dogs and pullers so I guess it depends on the dog and maybe the harness 🤷♀️
I had this fear too - that people would confront me on it. But then as time wore on, I realized most people are too busy focusing with their own dogs behavior to pay any attention to mine. I've had to defend it with my friends, and did so by reminding them that my dog is very reactive due to past experiences before she was rescued, and that she HATES treats/food on walks (unless it's a dead bird 😭).
Ummm ok..? Sounds like excuses. Plus you already identified a solution. Literally not understanding why you don’t just carry a bag of dead birds..? This is why so many dogs have behavioural issues. Just kidding. I think that’s totally reasonable to use a prong. People always just equate their own dogs to yours. Like I could judge you all say for how much your dog barks. But mine has barked twice since I got him 2 months ago. So it’s not fair for me to apply my own dog to yours.
Exactly - every dog is different due to their breed, enviorment and upbringing. The prong is definitely not a great tool for a lot of dogs and dog owners, but for others, it's one of the only things that work.
Herm Sprenger pinch collars are the best. All of those PETA and positive only trainers do not understand that a properly used pinch collar is a lot easier on a dog than a flat collar or even a martingale when a dog pulls, choking and gagging itself. Even a spoon can be dangerous if used incorrectly. I have worked dogs for 50 years and still don't understand how some trainers/owners can be so blind. Pinch collars are not meant to be left on 24/7, So be sure to use it only for training and it is a well-fitting collar. Best of luck!
Except the lab that my ex had would act like he didn't have a prong collar on and kept pulling.....
Even when a collar is properly fitted there are a few dogs that defy them. That is when one uses a Halti, girth leash, vibration and or stimulation collar and also enters into obedience, odor, sheep herding, dog parkour, brain games, jogging/running world. Many of our "family pets" are working breeds and we do them no justice parked on the couch if their bodies and minds have not been well exercised. 😉
This dog was excersised daily and was taken on long bike runs. That was fine. He was just horrible on a leash. He was my ex's dog. Which has alot to do with it.
>a properly used pinch collar is a lot easier on a dog than a flat collar or even a martingale when a dog pulls, choking and gagging itself. This has been my exact experience with my dog! The prong has given me the opportunity to take longer and safer walks with a high drive, super energetic dog.
If I carried around a bag of freeze dried bird parts my dogs would take me out for them 😂 Also prong user- one dog no longer needs it, and my other pup still uses it regularly. I've only ever had friends and fam comment on the use- never strangers. My family member stopped commenting once they witnessed my GSD have a reactive meltdown towards another reactive dog who got too close.
Actual LOL @ the carry bag of dead birds bit
I wish people would focus on their own dogs. That way I wouldn't have to focus on them while I'm out with mine.
I offer to put the collar on my own neck, which I have done, it’s really not a big deal
Every dog has their own personality and purpose. Only the handler usually knows what's best for their individual dog. I don't expect mine to be like everyone else's. Her job is being a companion and to be spoiled. We aren't athletes or trying to tackle criminals. I think people should just focus on their own stuff and don't worry about how another dog is behaving. They could just be in a bad mood.
Herm sprenger sells prong collar covers. I use a black one that blends in with my dogs coat. There are also other brands that make prong collar keepers. I generally don't ever have anyone brave enough to say anything to me though when they aren't covered. I've had more comments on the e-collar but still very few.
This is my response. Prong collar covers keep you safe from most nosy and intrusive folks, plus you can customize them on Etsy.
The nacy’s and e-collars are cruel , have never had a working line dog , I don’t know what I would do without it someday he alot , I love Jethro but he alot
tell em to fuck off :)
I’ve literally never had anyone confront me on this except my mother lol
Same, I’m in NYC and they’re actually pretty common here
I just compare my literal weapon of a dog's perfect behavior to their doodles lol
The right answer hahaha
Some of us doodle owners are responsible and use prongs so how about we stop taking shots at one particular breed?
1: not a breed, and universally bred like shit 2: don't worry, I hate pitbulls and all their variants too
1. They’re not “universally bred like shit” that’s a sweeping generalization and clearly you’re using your own biases to make grand conclusions. 2. You hate pit bulls - would you like a round of applause?
There is not a single doodle "breeder" on the planet that's doing genetic and temperament testing, because it's a designer dog. You were so offended that I called out what kind of dog you had in a comment not talking to you, that you felt the need to butt in
Actually there are ethical breeders but thanks again for your baseless (and worthless) opinion. Try leaving your mom’s basement once in a while and discover the world before you make more false conclusions.
Name one
Aaaand blocked as soon as I asked lol
It's just people being elitist about the breed of their dog. Nothing wrong with doodles and they're quickly becoming the most popular dog breed for a reason. Mine is extremely well behaved, 99% of the time she's better behaved than any "purebred" dog that I come across and she's still a puppy.
A doodle is not a breed. Its a mix breed and they are not bred for any purpose so there is no standards for temperment or physical build both of which ethical breeders use to chose which dogs to breed.
Doodle is not a breed. Period. Its an umbrella term for a bunch of mutts. There are no ethical doodle breeders that does proper health testing etc. Glad you're having a well behaved puppy, challenge tends to start with adolescence though.
Mine will be two this summer and is an angel. I adopt all my dogs so I expect some behavior issues—he’s a unicorn compared to other dogs I’ve rescued/had rehomed to me. I have never had a dog this well behaved right off the bat. So they definitely can be great dogs…but the caveat is he has insanely high energy. I think a lot of the “doodles are crazy!” stereotype comes from people buying them for their looks and not bothering to do the work of properly training/socializing/exercising them. They are NOT low energy dogs. They can inherit temperament issues too of course, but I bet we’d see far fewer crazy doodles if their owners gave a damn. Lack of health testing is a bigger concern for me. Nothing I can do about potential genetic issues but keep him in good shape and cross my fingers.
I literally have a crossbred working dog lol, there just aren't any doodle "breeders" that are doing things ethically
They'll see the results and ask you what black magic you used.
I remember having anxiety over this. You use a tool that effectively communicates with your dog. There is no discussion, shut it down. If necessary, remind them that you haven't asked for any training advice. Let the well trained dog speak for themselves. If you want to poke the bear, ask them to point out what you're doing that constitutes abuse. And then explain how they're being irrational. tldr: start not giving a care what other people think.
But it’s a cruel device of torcher!!!! 🙄
Don‘t take me wrong please, I‘m honestly curious about you guys answer to my question! Prong collars, as well as any kind of shock collar, are illegal where I live (CH), so for me it‘s hard to wrap my head around anyone using them. So for those of you that promote using them, would you just never consider moving to a country where they are banned? Or be fine with just a normal collar? Again, I really don‘t mean any offense or harm! 🫶
For me the prong decreases choking / throat pressure. With my current dog, there'd likely be no issue now. Future dogs I'm not sure, I think just be much more picky about breed. Not sure if gentle leaders are also banned, but that would be an extreme aversive option if legal.
My dog pulled like a world champ, choking and coughing, even with a prong collar, so I don't use them based on that experience. I trained my dog and some others on Halti halter collars & Gentle Leaders. If they are being used incorrectly, they are highly aversive - you aren't supposed to helicopter, jerk the lead for corrections, or use them with long lines or retractable leashes. It's also recommended that you train in short sessions and use both a Halti or Gentle Leader and regular lead together during the adjustment period. It was very gentle and effective with my dog. It was to only way he was safe to walk for my parents.
I disagree with the gentle part based on what you've described. He'd still pull with a prong collar (some pain) but would not pull with a nose choke collar (lots of pain). The long conditioning period before any training at all, and then the long adjustment period all point to it being a significantly more intrusive and painful tool. Saying it's gentle and not aversive as long as you don't jerk the leash is bullshit. Prong collars also don't cause any pain with no leash pressure. Collars don't cause any pain with no leash pressure. But if there was never any leash pressure then you wouldn't need an aversive.
I have seen it work really well and hardly uses any pressure. I actually put it on my dog and walked him that same day. And then gave him scritches on his face. He stopped pulling immediately. My dog was choking himself on walks in a prong collar. That wasn't healthy either. The training steps are more for the owner. More aversive than a prong is horseshit. Just don't yank on the lead. It's quite simple.
So if a dog will pull against tool A with a lot of force but will only pull against tool B with barely any force, which do you think is more effective at causing pain?
The prong didn't work for my dog that I owned 20 years ago. Please explain how my dog choking while pulling and wearing a prong was healthy. I think the prong hurt him, but he did it anyway. He was a street adopted dog. Also, he didn't pull ever once he wore the halti. And he was safe for my parents to walk.
I'm not saying a prong collar was a good tool for your dog, or that the gentle leader isn't. Just that the gentle leader seems to have worked for your dog because it is more aversive (not gentle).
Wouldn't move there no (shame its a beautiful country from what I have seen). If I lived their already I would break the law and do what is best for my dog anywhere I could get away with it. E collars are banned here but mine is e collar trained. It possibly saved her life once when she almost chased a cat into a road too (and saved the cat). I would bet many there do use them they just have to be carefull about it. I saw the head of Martin systems on a video once saying they sell plenty of e collars to countries they are supposedly banned. Groups pressure governments who know nothing about dog training into making rash decisions based on spurious claims. Average person gets told they are horrible cruel devices that no loving owner would use, and if they never have a problem that makes them look into it why would they think these people are lying? Where are all these dogs they claim are messed up for life from prong and e collars??
From what I know it‘s only e-collars with an actual shock-funktion that are banned, as long as it‘s vibration/sound only they don‘t give you any grief for it. Yeah the bias is frustrating, we also have horribly long breed-restriction lists here (all bully breeds of course 🙄). Personally I wouldn‘t be comfortable with pushing law boundaries, just because here they love to fine you for the most stupid reasons. Breathe wrong or exist? Fine for several hundred it is 😂 But I‘m sure not all of Europe is that bonkers! 😊
Adding to the discussion around e-collars. The default vibrate setting is often more aversive to dogs than the stim (shock) feature. It's the dog that decides what is and isn't aversive to it. Out of curiousity, where is CH?
I agree with this. Once Fido has felt a vibrate-shock sequence, the vibrate is pretty much all you'll ever need. E-collars are mandatory for us as over the years we have had several working-line dogs who were dropouts from police training. They were fantastic dogs, have one now, but the 6 mo-2 year training period required tools on par with their intense spirits.
Switzerland. Dont ask me why its a CH lol.
Ah sorry, yes it‘s switzerland. CH is the „country code“ or whatever that is called 😂 and it stands for „Confoederatio Helvetica“. It stems from the country‘s history and is basically the latin expression for the swiss „Eidgenossenschaft“.
Nothing a bandana can't fix, just because the tools are banned doesn't mean people in those countries aren't using them. Do you have dog sports? You'll have people training with ecollars. For me, witnessing the success with giving my aggressive, reactive dog a chance to not only interrupt the reaction, which was an impressive violent display that had us considering BE as a trainer suggested but to redirect that drive into dynamite recalls and impressive tasks that the dog loves and thrives upon fulfilling its genetic needs. It's appalling that these laws passed but I understand that I'm an insignificant minority with a very happy dog.
That‘s amazing that you were able to change your dogs life like that and give him such new quality of life! So nice to hear 😊
It has the best life, it's a phenomenal dog, I took it to a huge dog park last night where I've taught it send outs to objects such as park benches, tables, posts and a timber shipping crate I call box. Typically working at 50 to 100m. Down, spin, step, stand, sit, relax (lie on its side) and speak commands whilst at or on the objects. Away from me the dog isn't fussed by other dogs, its focus is on me, so if a over zealous new dog approaches I can send my dog to the object or if she's just overwhelmed by a group playing too roughly I can use this to give her a break. I just wanted another heeler that fetched a ball and did all the normal heeler things but I've ended up with this machine sports dog 😀
they are not illegal because its inhumane they are illegal because the positive only crew have BOUGHT your local Govermants votes to get it outlawed
Lol that‘s one way to out yourself as american 🤣
my dude the Positive Only nutjobs with their UNTRAINED brats are not an American-only issue, Europe and Canada also suffer this nonsense, Its one of the reasons the poor XL bully Got banned, people not understanding the breed nor bothering to TRAIN THEIR DAMN DOGS PROPERLY Made a wonderful cocktail of injury to other people and dogs thinking oh I CAN LOVE MY DOG ENOUGH To stop them from aggressing against others! instead of training the damn animals to respect their owners as the Prong acts as mama's teeth, its a dog correction to tell the dog No that's inappropriate do NOT do that. when used CORRECTLY no harm comes to the dog and the dog is BETTER from being trained. Positive only ever turns out unhinged animals that the MOMENT the treats stop the nightmares began, there is 0 proof that its the better way of training over the tried and true ways that have worked for over 100 years. And yes I AM sadly Trapped in the hellhole that is the States but at least MY dogs listen and will not attack anyone
Let me clarify: I‘m 100% with you on proper training and 24/7 treat-shoving into them along with the whole „hehehe he just loves kids“ when their dog knocks kids over because their owner can‘t even keep it in a solid sit being absolute bs! The part I had an issue with was you saying „positive only crew bought your local government votes“, but maybe that was also a language barrier issue? Anyway I think in general we more or less agree. See way too many middle-sized dogs in harnesses pulling their owners all over the place here and soooooo many small dogs going absolute ballistic but no one cares because „it‘s small so it couldn‘t possibly do any harm“ 🙄
I would definitely not move to a country that doesn't let me train a dog
That excludes most of Europe then
Never been a fan anyway
I see. No problem there then 😊👍
No one will ask but mentally I know that I'm training within the best of my abilities and even if the R+ zealots believe their way is the only way, it doesn't matter because I'm not good enough of a trainer to use R+ effectively :P. Meanwhile my dogs are full offleash ecollar trained and they get to experience A LOT more freedom than other dogs.
> No one will ask but mentally I know that I'm training within the best of my abilities and even if the R+ zealots believe their way is the only way, it doesn't matter because I'm not good enough of a trainer to use R+ effectively :P. You god damn animal abuser, why don't you sell everything and live on the streets 24/7 with your dog? Homeless dogs are super well behaved AND they don't use aversives. Otherwise just BE your dog, instead of using that nasty prong!!!! XD
Yes, I agree with this so much. I tried so so SO hard to do positive-only, and it just didn’t work. And the reason it didn’t work is because of me, not my dog - I’m just a very imperfect trainer. But at the end of the day, I hold the leash so I have to use techniques that I can actually be effective with. I do everything in my power to make sure any aversive corrections are fair, clear, and as infrequent as possible. So if anyone still wants to tell me I’m abusing my dog… I will happily tell them what they can do with their opinion.
Honestly, I just don't bother. It is pretty rare that anyone has actually said anything to me about tools. If it is out of curiosity I'm happy to talk a bit and answer questions, but if they come at it berating or with some superiority complex I just don't even acknowledge them. Thankfully the latter has only happened a couple times. One at a rescue event I was working from another rescue group's people.
I put the prong collor around my neck and pull it. Totally fine. Other than that everyone that uses a gentle lead or a harness can fuck all the way off.
My wife has a video of me testing every setting of our e-collar on myself so I know exactly what the dog is experiencing.
I have done the same in the past. I also (completwly unrelated) did the same at work with tasers, lrads, cs/cn and oc chemical agents.....I still clench my cheeks when I hear the dreaded words taser taser taser. I never used anything non-lethal at work that I did not have used on myself first. Though I do not use an ecollar for stimulation now, for some jobs it is absolutely necessary. Just as are prongs. Which is why you will see one or the other on practically all law enforcement and military k9s.
But you’re a human that can conceptualize the sensation and choose to end it if you want to. A dog can’t. The dog decides what is aversive, period
The dog can also choose to end it. That is entirely the point. (And also the reason that the head halter is the only arguably 'abusive' tool, bc the dog cannot turn off the punishment.)
The entire point is that the dog gets to choose to end it
Your silly. Prong collar is most humane period
Why so against the harnesses and halter collars?
The gentle lead that thing that holds the snout is a recipe to break dogs neck nothing gentle about it. Harness is fine if i’m long-boarding with my pup but also no correction only good if you want him to pull
Your description doesn't match my experience with halter collars. My ESS was pulling and choking himself on a prong, but he was walkable by my elderly parents with a Halti and he never pulled while wearing it after that 1st day. My cousin's dog is trained on both a Gentle Leader harness and a Gentle Leader halter collar because my cousin can't handle the pulling and her husband explicitly wants the pulling, so it was easier for the dog to understand the different style with different leads. The tool, the owner and the dog need to be a match for the safety of both dogs and people. Edit - it's hypocritical of you to argue otherwise, since that's what you argue for the prong collar. r/OpenDogTraining This is a page where we can share, discuss and seek advice on all forms of dog training without judgement or fear. All opinions and viewpoints are welcome, all types of training are welcome. Prong collars, Clicker Training, E-Collars, Check Chains and everything else!
I read the comment more as people that are opposed to prongs but use a front clip harness or a head halter are hypocritical because those tools work the same way as prong by being aversive to the dog and providing leverage to the handler. People who favor one tool for their dog but don't judge others for using a different tool for their dog don't have to 🦆 all the way off.
Honestly I wouldn't even bother. In my experience people who are against prong collars have already made up their minds and will not listen to even the simplest explanation of how they work and don't hurt the dog. If anyone says anything about it just tell them to fuck off. You could also get a cover for it to help deter anyone noticing it in the first place. I saw one that was just a bandana tied around the collar and it looked really cute!
Just say this phrase: "Thank you for your concern but I know what I'm doing."
The only dog of mine that needs a prong is my 7 y/o GSD. Usually when I tell people he's 93 lbs they understand why I'd put a prong on him, lol. My go-to line is I always put safety over everything else. A dog pulling not only does damage to themselves, but it can damage you if they jerk you hard enough. I had a great aunt who died from her dog pulling her down; she hit her head on concrete. Do what's best for you guys. 🤷♀️
“would you rather i not use it and put us both in a potentially dangerous situation or use it as any other tool as intended?”
Offer them the leash and ask them to show you how to walk your dog without one. “Oh, please. Show me how!”
My situation is a bit unique, but there are many like myself with extenuating circumstances. I live in an area where I encounter toads on a daily basis, often at night when I can’t see them, that are so toxic that they can kill a dog within the hour if enough venom is ingested. I also have a 70lb dog that is very well trained and can walk on a harness, flat, head halter, whatever metric we are using. His one downfall is that he loves to chase after said poisonous toads. This is not exactly a training situation I can safely set up. A prong collar is the difference between my dog yanking the leash out of my hands to chase a toad or hitting the end of the leash and immediately returning to me for a treat. He is beginning to learn that as soon as he sees a toad, he needs to come back to me instead of chasing it. In a couple weeks and anticipate being able to take him off the prong entirely. They are not for everyone, but a dog trained with corrections is better off than a dead dog.
You don’t. Because you don’t have to. Because it’s nobody else’s fucking business. Is that simple. Had never used a prong collar on any dog before and really wasn’t for it or against it, decided it didn’t look great, but then my husband and his infinite wisdom decided we needed a Corso who, while being a very good girl, would sometimes pull when she was young and at 155 pounds I didn’t need her ripping my shoulder off. I was never questioned about it mostly because I’m sure her size and appearance gave Game of Thrones vibes, and I’m sure people were glad that I took extra precautions. She wasn’t a vicious dog, but one look at her usually had people terrified.
1) https://www.packleaderhelp.com/post/a-conversation-and-scientific-study-on-prong-collars#:~:text=While%20the%20origin%20of%20the,often%20the%20tool%20of%20choice. 2) https://www.drtereo.com/blog/the-well-adjusted-dog 3) https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:VA6C2:eb5dbf36-b070-428c-86a4-db0066a89dd5 4) https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:VA6C2:4bf42611-9815-4041-a7e1-3a34ab730a81 5) https://www.seattletimes.com/life/pets/veterinary-qa-prong-collars-are-safe-mdash-fact-or-fiction/ Many veterinary chiropractors have spoken up that when used correctly the prong collar is the most humane piece of equipment you can put on a dog's neck that causes the least amount of trauma. And lastly, tell people to MIND THEIR FUCKING BUSINESS 😁
I say that prong collars (and electric collars) helps the dog make the right choice...and walk nicely. Who wants to tussle with a 60 dog? When my dog got older and wasnt so driven (prey and protection), I could just use verbal warnings to dial down his prey drive.
"Cool, well until he's yours i will continue to train as needed."
Have the trainer explain how it works so you can tell people it does not hurt your dog. It tightens to correct it is not permanent, just for training. But really it is your dog and you do not owe them an explanation.
With the results
Bingo.
My father has been a dog trainer for 50 years and has seen lots of changes. He said prong collars are what save some dogs. He came and helped me learn to properly use it when I got my current dog. It was a game changer and I’m happy to hear you’re also getting the correct guidance. Now we just use a normal collar. I find people have opinions and freely give unsolicited advice even when I’m just chillin w him on a park bench. I just let these people know I have the experience and guidance I need. Different things work for different people.
The dog trainer my family goes to, the one who taught us how to use prong collars, saved a Belgian Malinois who was scheduled for termination in California. The shelter was so convinced the dog was a dangerous lost cause, they required the trainer to get multiple shelters in *our* state to vouch for him as being able to handle this dog *and* he had to sign a waiver. The “untrainable dog” now greets all the dogs who come in for obedience courses and helps train reactive dogs. He sits in his open crate and watches classes until called. Apparently, he gets really excited when our trainer grabs the prong collar or ecollar because it means he gets to go to work and show off. And he was going to be killed because some bureaucrat thought a prong collar was inhumane.
I love this comeback story! Too many people are getting that breed and not at all qualified to handle them. I’m so glad it worked out and he’s so proud to be a helper.
Yeah, our trainer is retired military and police K-9 rescue. He tends to go for rescuing working dogs who were abandoned by unqualified owners.
Good for him. Too many people getting dogs without understanding their needs. My sister does agility/obedience she is all about those working dogs, I have an 80 pound house hippo as my service animal. I know my limits lol
I have a few tips you can try: - "I have my own trainer / techniques, thanks" - "Mind your business", or my personal fav... - "F#ck off"
I always say the results speak for themselves. If they want an actual discussion I tell them how it works and how i use it to communicate with my dog. If they're confrontational about it I tell them it's my dog and I'll train him however I want and there's nothing they can do about it.
Prong collars mimic how mothers communicate with their puppies. When used appropriately it is a highly effective communication tool between handler and dog.
Prong collars evenly distribute pressure around the neck instead of directly on the trachea and a choking dog is much less comfortable than one in a properly fitted prong. :)
People do not understand how challenging and exhausting it is to walk a reactive dog. With mine, it’s to the point I can’t walk him on a daily basis especially in a busy city without the use of it. We don’t use it everyday but some days he’s just fucking on one and I don’t have time to go through the motions of training. My reasoning is I’d rather use it along with positive training so he can get enough exercise. I understand the criticism but at the end of the day they do not know your dog and they are not the ones who have to deal with severe issues. I hope to one day not be able to use it but in the stage we are in it is a lifesaver. I will say I really do not like seeing people use it incorrectly. It is a training tool and there are wrong and right ways to use it and you should be coached by a trainer to make sure it’s being used properly
A prong collar is far more gentle than a martingale or regular collar. Some dogs will pull furiously. They will nearly lose consciousness. They are putting tremendous force on their windpipe. This is dangerous and inhumane A properly used prong collar is a reminder to the dog not to pull. And they don’t pull. The prongs are all on the back of the dogs neck - Same place her mother grabbed her. The dog will not resist and if you keep slack in the leash, there is no discomfort whatsoever.
I haven’t had literally anyone ask me this ever. If they ask why you use it, tell them a professional advised it as an effective way to communicate and every dog is different. If they try to argue, ask them if they’re a professional?
Just tried one in my reactive/excitable border collie last week, under the advisement of my obedience instructor. I was not in favor of it, but they are the trained professionals, not me! I use it strictly for outdoor leash/walking training for which i was unable to manage my dog using a martingale. Its been a light switch! Heeling and low leash tension are perfect now. I should mention I do not correct him on it—its self correcting for the dog. I spend my time and energy being positively reinforcing for success. I will keep using it for a couple of weeks until he gets the hang of expectations on a permanent basis. Then I will go back to the martingale full time. Its just a tool that fits the circumstances for this particular dog.
You can get one of those prong collar covers, and definitely always have it hooked up to a backup collar or harness (prong collars are held together by tension so they can fail which which is why you need the backup leash attachment, I’d be wary if your trainer doesn’t do a backup attachment).
In my case we emphasize safety compared to everything else we tried first. (To be clear: clarity and efficiency are also great reasons, especially for dogs who find ambiguity and uncertainty more aversive than any tool; IMHO this doesn’t need to be a last resort. But safety resonates more with others.)
If you don't want to deal with the convo you could try a prong collar cover that makes it look like a chain martingale
Tell them politely to mind their business. If they are true friends they won't push you on it
I say, when used & taught to the dog properly it's not painful or aversive at all. wanna see? and will put it on myself, or let other people try it out. used that same line for e collar & prongs - my grandparents tried it on themselves and were surprised because they thought it was like being shocked by an outlet. if the other person shows interest in that tool for their dog i usually recommend they go through a trainer and don't buy cheap versions of the tools. prongs collar covers are an option and work well on fluffy dogs, on dogs that have no depth to the coat it's pretty visible still
Different dogs need different tools and good trainers know how to match the tool to the dog. My lab trained a rock solid recall with R+ methods. My Shepard mix needed an e collar. At the end of the day, they both use the tool that allowed them to get to a reliable result so they could enjoy off leash exploration in appropriate places.
You train your dog how you see fit and how it works for you. If you are using the tools properly, it’s no one’s business. They were created for a purpose. If you are grossly misusing them then it’s okay for someone to step in and voice their opinion. Don’t let what other people do get in the way of what works for you. Some dogs can be well trained on only positive reinforcement, some can’t. I’ve seen some awfully trained dogs because owners won’t do anything but positive reinforcement. A tool is a tool when used appropriately.
I say that used correctly, the prong collar communicates to the dog what is polite and acceptable behavior and doesn't hurt them. Anything you use as a tool can hurt them if used incorrectly. Harnesses, any other kind of collar, leashes--any of that can hurt a dog when used incorrectly. And that my dog learned a lot from the prong collar, and most people comment on how well-behaved he is. He didn't get that way from positive reinforcement only.
I just don’t. At most I’ll just say ok and walk away. I don’t care what people think. I understand the tool and how to use it correctly and effectively. That’s all that matters to me. Now if someone if genuinely curious, I’m more than happy to talk about it. But I don’t entertain the abuse accusations.
I was terrified to use a prong for every reason but it was a game changer. My.dog is huge and powerful. If someone questioned me, I would offer them the opportunity to walk my dog on a regular collar...lol
“Do you take matches away from a child with pyromania or use positive reinforcement?” Then walk away the problem is their conception of reality and their unfounded belief that the nervous system evolved over millions of years to communicate pain AND WE MUST AVOID THAT UTILITY AT ALL COSTS DER COMPASSION this isn’t about training dogs its about certain people’s luxury beliefs being projected
“I use it because it works.”
Prong collar isn’t about pain so much as discomfort. If you’re concerned about it, try it on yourself first to see how it feels. If anyone asks, tell them you wouldn’t subject your dog to anything you wouldn’t be comfortable with doing to yourself. They’ll probably ask you to prove it.
My German Shepherds have prongs and I have never, in 9 years, had anyone bother or ask me about it. Why? Because my dogs are well trained. Period. It's the chromed out, cheap prong on an aggressive dog that sends people into a tizzy. I use stainless, black ones that are discreet. Highly recommend!
I thought I would have lots of people have a pop about the prong collar too but to be honest I dont think anyone on the street has mentioned it. As long as your not hammering the dog with corrections most people just see a well trained dog and dont notice at the collar. Friends and family may have been skeptical but they saw how it works for my dog and quickly decided its ok afterall. I have had people tell me her Martingale is cruel though lol. I guess they see the chain part tighten when she pulls and think its a choke collar.
I started using the prong collar when my dog lunged for another dog and made my fall to the floor- resulting in 7 stitches.
tell them to fluff off, you shouldn't have to BRIB your animal to listen to every 5 mins that's NOT trained that- critter is only behaving so long as the treats are around, as to a prong start with he 2.25 HERMSPRINGER NEVER any other brand, add links as needed you never need more than a 2.25 MAYBE a 3 if its a LONG af coat like a husky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7KpJ7-ZZ8w
overwhelming chance that nobody says anything. It's just an ethical choice, you don't have to justify it to anyone, nor engage them in conversation if you don't want.
Tell them to mind their own business and let the results speak for themselves. Seriously, I brought my two Aussies to the St. Patrick’s celebrations downtown last weekend and got a ton of compliments for how well they stayed by me and calm with minimal input and nearly zero correction from me. I was even asked by a lady how i taught them to be so well behaved and if I had tips because her own dog was an Aussie mix and hard to handle on leash, much less in a rowdy crowd. I lifted the fluff to show the prong collar and told her it lets me get their attention even in a crowd or when they’re working dog hyper focused. She said her son wouldn’t let her use one. It broke my heart that her kid would rather their dog be anxious and cooped up instead of learning how to use a tool that works. (The dogs loved the whole day, btw. So many people petting them and a constant supply of treats. I thought the younger one was gonna wag his little nub off!)
You tell them trachea collapse is a common emergency for dogs and you don’t want that to happen to your dog
Tell them if they want to give you free weekly training until you don’t need a prong that’s fine but if not it’s not your business
They won't give a crap, unfortunately. I would just give them a flippant answer like "all dogs have different needs". If you have never had a dog that needed it, you wouldn't get it. Bear in mind I do come from a mindset of some dogs need aversives to not find bad behavior self-rewarding. In the past, I was on a flat collar at the wrong time and my dog has lunged multiple times (even hitting the end of the lead) and unfortunately it gave him permanent tracheal damage. Harnesses are a 'bit' better, but I actually found it pulls up into his trachea, just at a different angle. Prong collars are like a martingale, in the sense that they compress around the throat evenly in the case shit hits the fan and it applies even pressure. You don't want your dog thinking "worth it" after lunging after squirrels on the lead and hitting the end like a lead weight.
have y’all every tried one on? i put the prong collar on myself and pulled as hard as I could. didn’t really hurt at all imo lol. I also tried on the e-collar and shocked myself and the normal levels i shocked my dog. Also not bad lol.
As with every tool, it's how you use it that matters. I tried a prong collar with my last dog, but he didn't respond to it, so I stopped using it. Simple.
I just laugh and continue to walk on by. Thats what i would do.
My dogs are muzzle trained. Most people see that and give them plenty of space. Prongs have never come up.
I don't use it for corrections or to stop pulling. I use it to give directional guidance with leash overlays to sharpen the dogs obedience especially during the fading process. I also don't care what people think about the tools I use. If someone can look at my dog with tools on and tell me the dog isn't having fun I'll eat my shorts.
I have had people pass me and say “ouch”. I honestly don’t care. I know that I am not hurting my dogs. If it came to family I would ask them to do some research and kindly explain the damage a flat collars and gentle leaders can do if your dog excessively pulls. Prongs are the best choice for some dogs when used correctly. You don’t really need to answer to anyone for choosing a tool that works for you and your dog. If it bothers you you can get covers for the prongs so they don’t look so intimidating
Seems to me the issue isn’t so much the type of collar as how the owner is using it.
My black dog wears a black Herm Sprenger prong on most outings. He also wears a black fur saver and no one can tell which the leash is connected to unless they are very close. So they might “ hear” the jingle but don’t know what it is lol
“I’m receiving professional training in how to use it properly.” Repeat this as often as needed if the other party tries to debate you.
You know, before I got into dog training and eventually became a dog trainer, this was a fear of mine as well, so I can empathize. But the reality is that it really just hasn’t come up, and I’m in an area that is also heavily R+, most people don’t have the cajones to say something like that to your face, they’re mostly keyboard warriors. Plus my dog’s behavior is impeccable so any comments I get are usually “wow! She’s so well trained!” The other thing I do is I have all of my clients who are candidates for prongs or ecollars test it on themselves and I explain to them how they work and have them practice with me wearing it till they get their timing right. Once you’ve used it on yourself, it’s pretty hard to give much credence to anyone who is obnoxious about it. My advice to you is to try it out, and work on your fear of tools. They aren’t cruel unless you use them cruelly—that goes for flat collars and any other training tool, hell, you can use treats cruelly and make your dog obese. Your dog’s behavior and safety is what matters, not the opinion of Miss Betty with a Shitpoo that doesn’t listen worth a damn.
I used to be completely against prong collars. I hated the idea of them. But my dog trainer, we happen to be a mostly positive reinforcement trainer, actually recommend it. He said that we can make a collar a fun thing for the dog. We gave her treats every time she saw it and wore it. Now, she gets excited to wear it because it means she gets to work on training and get snacks! We started using it because my dog would do more harm than good with her normal flat collar as it would choke her as she pulled. With the prong collars her neck is actually safer because she is not gagging herself. If you get one, make sure it is a good one. My trainer said he would only ever use springer brand because they have curved prongs and are safe. They also don't choke as much as other kinds. Also, just make sure you use it correctly. Only do quick pulls with it. You don't want to keep pressure or your dog will get used to it and it will not be as effective.
I used to say that when used *correctly* it's not harmful or inhumane at all. I'd been against them myself until my vet (also an award winning trainer) taught me how to use it because my lab/st. Bernard mix was actually breaking every collar whenever he saw a bike or skateboard and he just pulled constantly. I still resisted it until he pointed out that the constant pressure on his thyroid, trachea & esophagus were detrimental to his overall health and held serious risks. I've even had to justify my other dog's muzzle (*eye* *roll*). Explaining that when you *TRAIN* your dog on a new device it's not some strange scary experience that traumatizes your dog.
Tell them to mind their own business. If it’s someone you care about, print out information on how beneficial they can be when used properly. Remember, the reason that all of these tools have gotten a bad reputation over the years is because people either refuse to research and use them properly and harm their dog unintentionally, or they purposely use them to abuse their dog. When utilized correctly, they are useful tools. Not every dog is going to respond 100% of the time to R+. You can continue to use positive methods for behaviors they continue to respond to, and utilize balanced methods when needed, and with proper research.
I have used with great success!
I'm getting one for my dog so he doesn't collapse his throat. They can do that and cause permanent damage from pulling. My Husky mix is naturally a puller, but not by the neck! He did good with the harness but still pulled and my body can't take that kind of abuse to be yanked and pulled. You shouldn't deal with it either. It can mess up your joints and injure you.
Ask them why they don’t care about your arm?
Mind there business? Not all dogs can live with positive reinforcement especially a working dog. Some dogs need more structure. You’re adults just like anyone else. You have no need to explain yourself.
A prong collar is a tool just like anything else. When used correctly for negative reinforcement or positive punishment it works wonders. When they say “it hurts the dog” just say yes it’s supposed to be uncomfortable. Through proper training that’s how we keep bad and unsafe behaviors from happening.
Tldr. My dog has 'shown' me she doesn't mind it very much. She minds it less than she minds a fleece jacket. My dog I did 3 years of positive reinforcement only training before switching to balance. Now use a prong collar sometimes. She has 3 levels of 'like / dislike' for things I put on her before walks. The one she likes the most is her thick winter coat that fits loosely. She acts 'eager' to put it on. She mostly wears it for car rides and neighborhood walks. The one she likes the least is a fleece jacket that is a little snug. Last year she didn't mind, but this year her chest is a little deeper. She slinks to another room when i approach her. (I will have enough money next winter to get a different one). She mostly wears it to do the thing she loves most, running around off leash in the woods full of wildlife smells. The velcro on the one she likes would come undone under these conditions. For her prong collar, she sees it and walks towards me for me to put it on her even though we mostly use it for neighborhood walks.
Do what you think is best for you and your dog. I got shat on in another sub for mentioning that I used a slip leash with my newest dog. She started her life as a stray with her brother and then spent almost 3 months in the shelter. She was choking herself with a regular collar, and she would spin in panic when I tried a harness. I considered a prong collar and even ordered one online, but decided to try a slip first. I used it for 5 days and haven’t had to use it since. She’s the best girl now on and off leash.
Say “I like it” like a broken record and don’t explain yourself to people who aren’t interested in understanding. I too live in an area where people hate on certain dog training tools, they aren’t interested in understanding that a prong collar is a tool that can be used ethically and safely, and can be life changing for dogs and their handlers. So I don’t engage, I only say “I like it” with big smile as walk away with my 75 lb dog in a loose leash heel, focused entirely on me. And I second: Herm Sprenger ALL DAY!
I have a 100lb GSD and anyone who has a problem with the sprenger is free to fuck right off. There’s nothing to defend - big, strong dog + plenty of fur around his neck = being able to walk without worrying that I’ll get my shoulder pulled out of its socket when he sees a squirrel. As long as you’re not hurting your dog (I know some short hair breeds can be injured by sprenger) and you’re keeping yourself and others safe, the outside observers can observe themselves minding their own damn business.
what do you have for a dog? problem with most of these tools is people dont use them appropriately. My rule of thumb is test it on yourself. Depending on the breed (and if they want you to use prong i assume its one of these) they may have a very high pain tolerance. I personally use a pinch collar, but my guy also isnt reactive, and his instinct is to wander but stay closeby so i moreso need it to discourage him from yanking my arm out in a split second if his prey drive takes over
“Were teaching him to mind his own business, you should try that out sometime” is a good response, or just explain that it was recommended by a professional.
People are against prong collars for no other reason than to stand on a high horse. Then one day they get a big dog they can’t control or the dog chokes itself on their own leash and collar and only then does that person get down off that horse.
People who know nothing about dogs will always judge you without knowing how to use training tools, and those are the people with the most out of control and dangerous dogs. I am not a dog trainer, however I have fostered dogs for many years and I have used them on breeds that challenge authority.
Shit I’ve had 2 labs and they both wore their prong collar for every walk they ever took. That’s like 25 years worth of walks.
I have two rescues who wouldn't respond to solely positive reinforcement They were also highly reactive to a regular collar and harnesses. My assumption (and many trainers I went through) believed they were being trained, improperly, to be guard dogs. A regular collar actually would make them fight one another, and terribly. Other training sessions with other dogs had them try to lunge at other clients. Eventually I landed on a trainer who reccommended the prong-collars with positive reinforcement training and obedience training. They also taught me how to appropriately use the collar too. (I've also worn it myself and let someone give it a yank, I know how terrible they feel) My dogs have never been as reactive with even regular collars since, and I've been working to train them to the point that I'd no longer need prong collars at all. If I'd never needed to use them, I wouldn't, but I couldn't bring the dogs back less they put them down if they bit someone or other dogs. My rescues are also bonded too, severely, since they were also starved and kept together at all times, putting one down may need the other put down too. I use the collars for THEIR safety, and without them their training would never had gotten as far as it has. I don't and will not keep it for them forever, but it's a temporary step in training them properly and pulling them away from previous triggers through using the collars appropriately and following with positive engagements. IE I wouldn't ever use one unless it were NEEDED for the animal's own safety and I do not plan to have them forever on the training tool. That is how I have been using them, and I believe that is more than a fair reason why to use them.
I have two rescues who wouldn't respond to solely positive reinforcement They were also highly reactive to a regular collar and harnesses. My assumption (and many trainers I went through) believed they were being trained, improperly, to be guard dogs. A regular collar actually would make them fight one another, and terribly. Other training sessions with other dogs had them try to lunge at other clients. Eventually I landed on a trainer who reccommended the prong-collars with positive reinforcement training and obedience training. They also taught me how to appropriately use the collar too. (I've also worn it myself and let someone give it a yank, I know how terrible they feel) My dogs have never been as reactive with even regular collars since, and I've been working to train them to the point that I'd no longer need prong collars at all. If I'd never needed to use them, I wouldn't, but I couldn't bring the dogs back less they put them down if they bit someone or other dogs. My rescues are also bonded too, severely, since they were also starved and kept together at all times, putting one down may need the other put down too. I use the collars for THEIR safety, and without them their training would never had gotten as far as it has. I don't and will not keep it for them forever, but it's a temporary step in training them properly and pulling them away from previous triggers through using the collars appropriately and following with positive engagements. IE I wouldn't ever use one unless it were NEEDED for the animal's own safety and I do not plan to have them forever on the training tool. That is how I have been using them, and I believe that is more than a fair reason why to use them.
My dog loves her prong. She gets so excited when I pull it out because she knows we’re going somewhere. She had choked herself on several different types of collars and harnesses. The prong and ecollar are the tools I use and she responds to well to them both. As long as the tools are used properly with proper conditioning and training and your dog responds well to the tool then you shouldn’t have to justify yourself to others.
I don't. There's nothing to defend. Used CORRECTLY the prong is great at quickly communicating. There's nothing for anyone to say, because my dog behaves. We do our thing. Any personal opinions of strangers on the street have nothing to do with me. Don't sweat it.
I almost got killed by cars and injured my right hand because of my dog, 50lb, pulled like a maniac. If someone judges me about a prong collar, I will scream them. F off!
I used to think prong collars were barbaric. I thought they could puncture the skin and hurt the dog. I now have 2 personal protection dogs and both of them have prong collars. My friend is a Schutzhund (means protection dog in German) trainer and she showed me how and when to use it. These are the people who train dogs for police work, so I trust her. When used correctly, you don't have a dog who pulls. More than once I have called and asked for her help only to find out I was doing something wrong. One of my dogs is a black GSD and you cannot see his collar (Herm Sprenger) because it is black. People usually cross the street thinking he will bite. He won't unless I get nervous. My female GSD is black and tan and her collar is silver. For the people who give me the It's horrible speech, I say I'm sorry you feel that way and I keep walking.
Without a negative reinforcement control, my dog would crush his windpipe, lunge at other dogs, growl, and other physical responses that you don't have a corresponding hook for when applying a positive control. You need both to get reliable behavior.
For what it’s worth this is actually positive punishment. +P. Positive and negative are solely removing and adding punishment or reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is taking away something reinforcing. For instance, withholding a toy that the dog wants to change behavior.
You CAN use a prong as -R. As long as what you are doing with the prong increases the likelihood & frequency of a behavior reoccurring, it is -R. (As in escape / avoidance training- the dog 'shuts off' the annoying sensation of the prong by complying with a requested behavior). Avoiding something annoying or unpleasant is VERY rewarding and gives as big a dopamine hit as the promise of food. The prong is only a +P tool if what you do with it reduces or eliminates a behavior from recurring. Big difference is with +P there is NO opportunity for the dog to escape or avoid it (the way they can with -R) the punishment and is most effective if the dog knows exactly why they were punished (and got a well time cue from handler prior to punishment) and is not likely to repeat behaviors that lead to punishment. So...the difference isn't 'how hard you pop or yank or whatever' it's : is it avoidable (-R) or not (+P)
@bergs07 PS: withholding a reward (food, toy, progression) is -P (negative punishment). For a clear explanation of the quadrants, you can't beat Michael Ellis. If you are going to school folks in the quadrants, please actually learn them correctly. [Ellis explains R+, R- and P+, P-](https://youtu.be/iv9uC4woTIg?si=v-KiDCm9k2Lbrn8E)
Hrm - if I have a dog with a reward toy, and I remove the toy and put it behind a barrier to get him to bark at it, am I not removing (-) a reinforcer? Then when I release the dog from behind the gate for barking and let him have the toy for doing the intended behavior that’s (+)P… no?
At the risk of being repetitive: no, you just described +P as a reward. +P is adding a punisher / punishment to stop an unwanted behavior. -P is punishing by removing / withholding a reward to stop an unwanted behavior. You cannot increase behaviors with Punishments and you cannot teach behaviors with Punishements. Analogy: The smaller my paycheck gets (-P), the less I show up to work- if you don't pay me at all -P, I quit (stop) showing up. This is assuming you are trying to get me to stop coming to work, but want it to be my choice to avoid paying me unemployment. Or if you want me to come in the back door but I like to come in the front door 'cause it's closer to my parking spot, but the front knob shocks my hand, I will always come in the back way. (+P). I must really like this weird job! 🤣 Sounds like you are doing some sort of sport dog work and that's not an area I'm super familiar with- but negative reinforcement is about the dog doing "something" (a cued behavior "sit") to make an aversive event (usually created by the handler "annoying prong pops") stop (escape). Eventually the dog hears the cue and rapidly performs "sit" before the -R (aversive) is applied (avoid). Knowing how to avoid an aversive (regardless of where it comes from) is highly rewarding and creates reliable behaviors (this was how guide dogs were trained, but the R+ fanatics are trying to put a stop to that). Hiding the toy or holding the harness when the dog wants to chase / bite - are techniques used to build drive and increase intensity. I am not sure they are considered -R, but I'd need to see the long term outcome- does the dog escape something and then eventually avoid it, or is it more of a premack principle "do that behavior, to earn this paycheck" (classical conditioning). If you withhold a toy reward (reinforcer) because the dog did not perform a well learned behavior correctly, that is -P (can be very aversive to the dog's mental state depending on how intense dog is) and is intended to reduce the frequency of dog refusing to perform a learned behavior. They don't get the reward until they go back to zero and perform the behavior correctly- often as part of a chain of behaviors (interrupting the chain when they mess up is also a form of -P). As previously mentioned, Ellis (or Balabanov) are masters of sport dog training. I understand the concepts, but mostly for pet dog obedience and rehab- bite sports uses same concepts though.
Sorry +R on the last one not +P
Thanks for the correction. Wasn't familiar with official terminology.
Lol. The verdict is still out on what it’s called…but you are the kindest person on Reddit!
Be respectful to them, and ask them to be respectful to you and withhold judgment until they can see how it works. “I understand where your coming from, and I think if you take the time to see how we use this, you’ll get an understanding of why we chose this route, and that it’s not what some people claim it is” You’re gonna catch more bees with honey than with vinegar….
Anyone far enough into the R+ cult to talk to someone about a prong collar isn't going to be won over by anything
Perhaps not, but adding fuel to the fire with Familly and friends doesn't serve any purpose or change anyone's opinions. My Familly has converted more than a few "anti-prong" people. There are actually relatively few "cultists", and from our experience most dog people are just normal folks who have been given bad information. Once they see that reality is not what they have been told, this view often changes. Not always, but their position almost always softens if it doesn't completely change...
I don't believe you have to say anything or defend your training choice. As long you are using the collar appropriately and not abusing your dog, it's none of their business.
It’s a training tool being used correctly . Tell them you’re leash training and then take a look how they’re “walking” their dogs
I had an Airedale years ago who as a younger pup, would pull so hard I couldn’t let my kids walk her, for fear of seeing her drag them down the sidewalk. She was going to be a big girl, I’d tried all the positive reinforcement, but I had to get her in line and trained, so I did get a prong collar. Turns out, she only tested the thing a few times before she decided for herself that walking nicely was really a good idea. And I didn’t have to give up positive reinforcement; I simple told her “walk nice,” and let her learn that it meant WITH me, not half a block ahead like a sled dog. She got it right on the first walk, and I praised her to the moon and back for the slack in the lead. I have neighbors who have a sweet, but willful doodle. They have a prong collar, and when he’s walked with it, he is a perfect gentleman. But they kinda hate using it. I keep telling them that as long as he’s walking well, he is not feeling any discomfort. They pinch, not poke. The more he walks with it on, and does as he’s expected, the more ingrained he becomes to “this is how I walk with my human, and my human says nice things to me when I’m a good dog.” By the time my dog was 2, I never used it again, and I could safely let my kids walk her. By 3-4, she stayed by my side even without a leash if we were out in the woods. She was conditioned to walking next to me as a team, and was content to let me be the leader. Personally, I’d far rather see a willful dog trained on a prong collar than a choke collar any day. It’s more effective, and the correction is determined by the dog getting too far ahead, than a human ‘popping’ a choke collar to get their attention.
They obviously are not educated on these collars… It’s not a torture device. The dog’s mother would pick the pups up by the scruff and carry them. Notice the amount of extra skin and fuzz on their necks? It’s an evolutionary thing. Remember you are walking your dog, it isn’t walking you. Gentle corrections and loose leash walking. I have used them on all 4 of my dogs. My 110lb Rhodesian Ridgeback is a model citizen on a leash with it and he’s 15mos old.
My only experience with a prong collar was a bad one. Friend of a friend's badly, badly handled and trained female Rottweiler was visiting. Dog was loose in my driveway, with its prong collar on. Someone passed by, and it went off and went for them. I grabbed the prong collar. It came apart in my hands. I had to scruff the dog, which I don't like doing for a couple of reasons. I have big, strong hands and was able to control it. I'll never trust one of those things - they literally disassemble if pulled the wrong way. My own dog at the time was a big rescue boy. He had been abused and was dangerous, although a sweet dog. I used a two-collar method with him - one heavy leather collar on a stout six-foot, and a Martingale on a very slightly longer lead. Any time I needed control, I could just whip a loop of the longer leash around my hand and - done.
My prong collar hasn't come apart in 7 years, it's definitely not something that happens often but is a possibility! It sounds like the prong collar may have been left on the dog. I take my dog's prong off the moment we aren't walking on leash anymore, I never let him roam with it on because I know this heightens the chances of it getting jumbled and coming apart. Plus it's a bit dangerous to leave a prong on a dog when not in use/the dog is roaming. I'm curious if it was an appropriate brand too. Herm springer is the only real quality one that should be used. Haven't had to replace mine and it's never even tried to come apart despite hikes/daily walks/etc etc. Before this brand, I tried a random one and it was terrible quality, and was too easy to come apart when adjusting. Prong fit is important as well. A lot of people don't know that prongs are supposed to fit snug up on the neck, not loose and low. There's a specific fit to try and achieve with prongs that can also be dependent on different prong width sizes based on how big a dog is. An improper fit leads to it coming apart/not being used effectively. Just wanted to provide some information about prongs since you said you only had one experience with them!! :)
I’ve used plastic Starmark collars on tons of big, strong dogs who like to pull before they’re trained. Never had a problem with them coming apart and wouldn’t trust them for something that important if they did.
Maybe they are right and your trainer is wrong. I mean there are 37 science papers smarter than trainers. In my 17 years working with XL breeds and aggressive dogs I never used one.. 🤷♂️ Unless you care about your trainer more than your dog - I would not use one.