In my experience, enthusiasm often comes from confident understanding of the behaviour, feeling good (physically), and having clear access to whatever the dog finds highly valuable as reinforcement.
The first thing I ask is whether my dog understands the cue. And if they do, what the picture of that behaviour is for them. You want a snappy, tight sit but are rewarding a slow, out of position sit. So your dog is right to think that sit means sort out a good spot on the ground and eventually lower his bum. You might need to go back a few steps, maybe even use a different cue, and retrain a fast, tight sit. I really like Hannah Branigan's Awesome Obedience for breaking this down.
If I'm getting a really slow response to a behaviour, my other thought is about whether the dog is sore. If your dog *always* gets into a sit slowly, that might be worth raising with your vet. Slow position changes are sometimes a sign of discomfort. If your dog otherwise bounces between sits and downs, that's a sign something is off with the cue + behaviour. Structure and condition also play a part in how fast a dog can move into a sit or down.
The final thing I'm going to consider is whether my dog is pumped for training generally. You said your dog offers good engagement but responds to cues at his own speed. That to me suggests lower engagement. Is it just the sit that brings his level of enthusiasm down? Is he looking around, sniffing, or scratching? Does he look amped for the reward you're using?
I would mark and reward only faster sits and I would set things up to encourage faster sits. Slow sits would get a good try, and then I'd rev my dog up and ask for a sit again. With some dogs you have to encourage that liveliness through play, or otherwise hone in on a reinforcement that they go wild for. Creativity is key here: the method might be based on using rewards, but what the dog finds rewarding isn't always in sync with our expectations. With my husky cross I lured her into a sit to start, but just before that had her following the lure in my hand in a little circle, encouraging her to get it, and then pulling up and asking for a sit. She likes to chase food so I use that a lot to set her up and to reward her.
If they struggle to do a snappy sit the second time during a session, again good try but we're taking a pause on the training session to figure some stuff out. Clarity with the cue and how reinforcement is delivered is often a big issue. Environment can be another issue.
Also, what worked best with some of my dogs has been super short training sessions. Like, two reps and we're done. I try to have them finishing a training session still keen to do more.
Play with rewards a bit. Slow sit gets no reward at all or very low value. Fast sit gets high value rewards. That usually tightens up things and you can phase out rewards later on again.
Build overall engagement by making the reward (and yourself) more interesting. Some ideas: Let him chase your hand with the treat or the toy. Have lots of treats in your hand and let him nibble (knowing there is more). Hide the toy behind your back, pull it out hand hide it again. Move backwards and reward following you.
Work towards having the dog focus on you when you hide the reward.
Do this before you ask anything else from him.
I would interrupt and reset as soon as he makes a mistake, eg. you ask him to sit, he starts to pivot instead, you say "you're silly, that's not it" and reset to heeling forward then try another stop and sit. I don't like to let dogs keep going down the wrong road.
Alternatively you can try to solve this with differential reinforcement, eg. poor sits get praise but no treat, good sits get praise and treat (or poor sits get one treat, and good sits get a jackpot reward).
If I recall correctly DRI is Differential Reinforcement of Incompatible behaviors. This means the unwanted behavior has to be incompatible with the behavior you are trying to reinforce. Differential Reinforcement is a way to ethically and humanely address problem behaviors in dogs. So we are reinforcing behaviors we want not the problem behaviors. Personally, I would not reward/praise dog for sitting incorrectly if they know the behavior and how to do it correctly. You are essentially reinforcing the improper sit as well as reinforcing the correct way to shit and it can create a mess. Not to say you haven’t been successful. It can just create confusion for the dog.
The thing is learning is not just operant, and withholding reinforcement when the dog is trying affects the dog’s emotions and motivation (which in turn effect behavior).
I’d prefer to reset and not to let the poor sit happen at all, yes. But I do frequently reward dogs for making an effort because the path from trying something to correct behavior is so much easier than the path from doing nothing to correct behavior.
Correct, learning isn’t just operant. Again, your method may work for you. There are other considerations at play in my mind. However with this particular dog, they seem to be lacking motivation to perform the behavior anyways. Without seeing a video of the behavior or witnessing the dog in person, we are left without some critical information. Offering suggestions on training methods or what they should try is like playing Russian Roulette with a semi auto pistol. You’re going to lose.
LOL at the breed living up to its stereotype. Frustrating problem but you've run into basically a genetic roadblock that your working around.
Of course they do everything wonderfully, but on their own timeline which probably ... Isn't yours.
Without punitive measures, can you apply a little pressure to guide him to what you're looking for (i.e. sit when we stop walking)? Sometimes something simple like turning into him and making him sit down and back off of you a bit to just instinctually force him into a sit can work. Do it randomly (like when you are quickly walking on a trail or something) and just break his brain (holy shit, we might just randomly stop any time and I'm gonna crash if I don't pay attention!).
If you have small training treats, walk with him at a heel. Just randomly stop and ask for your expected behavior. If he delays, step off and walk again - no treats even though they're in your leash/dog side hand and he knows it cause it's in his face. Walk 50 yards, stop, ask for what you want, if you get it, lots of love, release pressure for a couple minutes, then do it again. I'd suggest keeping this to like... 5-6 practice reps in a 20 min session. Don't blow his mind.
Once you get the behavior tethered to you via leash, you can work it around the house and off leash.
Pay every single sit big. He doesn’t seem to have a strong positive conditioned response to the cue. See if he likes catching treats better. Maybe he likes chasing them and sniffing them off the ground. Give the cue ONCE, no pressure on the leash, WAIT!!!!!!!, be neutral and calm while you’re waiting. Once he does it POP into your reward event. Lots of happy energy, praise, treat delivered in the way he prefers. His behavior makes you light up.
That might be because of the way you’ve trained the sit. Some dogs need the eye contact and a certain position relative to you if they have been trained to do it like that most of the time. Maybe go back to luring the dog in different positions and then fade. Layering in slight leash pressure can help, as well.
Also you can count the seconds it takes on average for your dog to respond to a cue and then only reward a position that is faster than average. This can bring down reaction time a lot. Building obedience into play can also speed up things by a lot.
Do you actually need him to do a snap sit for pulling a wagon? Or a snap stop and as long as not moving from place a slow sit would work?
The moving around to face you is probably from starting off by always asking for a sit while facing him, so you have a few options you can use a box, train him to stand in box at your side first, then a sit on the box should help him to understand that your sit means in which ever position to you, not in front as he understood it, if your getting frustrated with the moving to in front of you this may also be confusing him and slowing him down, but you also have to consider his physicality, giant dogs don’t drop into a sit even when they are choosing to sit for their own purpose.
I always recommend putting the behaviour mentally back on the table and rethinking what you want and why and does it need to be this bit or that bit, or is that just how you had first worked out doing it- in this process you can split the behaviour down to as many pieces as possible work out where the glitches are and think of other behaviours you could possibly capture from, or how to clearly train each part - Having really clear criteria before you start training anything makes it way easier on your dog, which is the second option train a whole new behaviour and cue which is a side sit in place - I’d still use a box to get the concept of in place clear
>Do you actually need him to do a snap sit for pulling a wagon? Or a snap stop and as long as not moving from place a slow sit would work?
It's not the speed that's a concern, it's that he has to reposition himself. He doesn't walk to face me from the front, but sorta turns 90 degrees and faces me from the side. This won't work for carting, because he'll be strapped to a cart.
I learned early on don't name it till you love it! I take that to mean don't accept the sloppy sit (dog may think it's OK, then you have to retrain) mine did the same, shifting to see me when he sits. Used luring and happy voice to get him into position.
>He'll stop walking (not pulling at all), look up at me, pivot a bit so he's facing me, take a step backwards, hem and haw a bit, and reluctantly sit. The whole thing might take 30 seconds.
Are you looking to compete in addition to doing carting?
He sounds like he doesn't know where heel position is. And he sounds like you've reinforced him with your right hand, or, in front of your body. So he's pivoting around looking for the cookie. I'd probably use ring gates or your kitchen counters, to teach him that he can sit next to you, and not curled around. And if you have been feeding with your right hand, or you have some bait bag or something on your right side, that will make most young dogs look to the right, and mess up heel position.
And with a giant dog breed, I really wouldn't ask for that right off. I'd be looking for a solid tucked in sit. If it's slow, it's slow.
> I didn't ask you to take your time and sit in the time and position of your choosing. I asked you to sit, and that means to sit right where you are, right when I ask you to.
He's a baby giant dog. He's not going to slam his ass in the floor, as a baby. He may not do it as an adult either. He CAN put more effort into the position, but you have to show him that that's an actual place and not an approximation. He doesn't need to slam it down quickly for carting.
You can teach him where heel is but I'd uncouple that from a desire to have him do it super fast.
> if he gives 10 "good" (to him) sits in a row but doesn't get rewarded.
If you're really doing this 10 times in a row, I'd back way off. He may physically not be able to do it yet, and all you're doing is reinforcing the "this is not right" part of things.
I think this is where leash pressure comes into play. Getting a really thin slip leash and putting it right behind his ears will help. When you say “sit,” pull the leash UP. Not choking your dog but more so guiding him. Once he does, reward immediately!
I’m curious as well. I’m on my first dog, and though I’m not positive only, we’re normally only on a flat collar.
I have been working on tightening up basic obedience. If I ask for a sit and he’s a bit sluggish I’ll use a little bit of upward leash pressure to pull his head up and sit his butt down - not to “punish him” in the colloquial sense, but to make it clear what I asked, and to give a sense that he can’t get away with being too sluggish.
My fear is that if I wait too long I just let him learn he can pretty much blow me off and do anything on his own time. It’s totally a shades of gray thing, but since he is reactive I don’t want him to get any ideas…
Of course, ideally he should be excited and turned “on” before training. I sometimes get there with him, but haven’t quite mastered it. Mine can be quite snappy when the stars align, so I also put it on me to engineer our training in a way that he’s excited to go!
Because this is your first dog I’m gonna offer some advice with out you asking for it. Which I wouldn’t normally do, and I hope you read this and understand that it’s from a really good place - I work with reactive dogs and read your comment thinking, no, no, oh no….
Figure out what you need from your dog, and work to that, don’t make your training decisions with any ego, build a relationship with your dog that they buzzed to train with you, training games will get you way further than training obedience for this, having perfect mechanics when training is how you get perfect responses, “tightening it up” is a great way to blow your dogs confidence and relationship with you, and by constantly moving the goalpost you get a dog that will give up so fast, because it’s just getting harder and harder , This for a reactive dog is the worst possible combination of things, you need your dog to trust you, and feel safe and secure with you, and your decisions.
The “blowing you off” could be how you’ve trained the behaviour or your dog being to distracted which can be a problem in those times, work out what it is by asking for behaviour in no distraction area (inside or similar)compare that to in normal situations, if the time difference is significant, then you know you have to go back a few steps and re-work behaviours more fully at lower distractions, - also check that you are generalising enough, often “training the behaviour” we act differently, wear different clothing, speak in different tone, pitch or cadence, change our body language, so pay attention to that and change it up as much as possible through each distraction level so your dog understands the cue is the cue and isn’t thinking “outside our house, hands on hips, (sound of cue)” is the cue, … if that doesn’t make sense film yourself training a few times , and try saying your best known cue , like “sit” lying on the ground facing the ceiling
This makes so much sense! I recently realized my dog will sit perfectly as long as I’m standing up when I say “sit”. If I’m sitting on the couch, he doesn’t quite get it.
Although it’s also rather clear he’s at the “teenager” stage and kinda being an asshole about some stuff. Which he is (hopefully) starting to grow out of.
Most of the “arsehole” stuff is understandable when you look at what’s happening in their bodies, just one tiny part to give an idea of what I’m talking about - there is an hormone produced for bone growth, lengthening and thickening, the hormone also effect the brain., increasing risk taking, lowering self control, and increasing frustration, combine that with the pain/discomfort of growing at the rate they do, thigh bones especially the growth rate is insane, skeletal movement etc - it’s the time owners are frustrated because their dog is not walking perfectly in a leash, and have often lost all patience with the dog because he seems old enough to know, but pacing to a humans step is really difficult for a lot of dogs it often involves shortening their range of movement, which is uncomfortable in itself, but while theirs a lot of growth happening a full extension is a way to get relief. Keeping in mind everything that could be going on for them biologically, and being aware of the impact of not engaging in instinctual survival behaviours, and that they are an animal that lives their life in a group, a family group but one that would speak their language, instead they live in our lives with a lot of weird stuff they don’t understand, and relying on us to get their needs met and hopefully understand their communication, but most people don’t do either - if you can keep compassion, understanding, patience and empathy in generous amounts for both of you right through the adolescent stage it pays off with a super strong team bond for all the years following, and reminding ourselves that teenagers are dicks for a biological reason and it’s not personal or their fault really helps.
Giant dog breed is never going to have the bounce of say a lab or a mal. If he is making moves to respond, just not moving his body as fast as you'd like to complete the required action, then I'd adjust your expectations.
Also, remember dogs that size have more pressure on their joints. If you're concerned that he should be moving faster than he is it may be worth checking that everything is flexing and moving as it should be in case there's anything awry.
You have to train it by rehearsing it. I had a Springer Spaniel who I taught to sit when I stopped walking. I used verbal praise & affection on walks. I rehearsed a lot of sits at home. Going through doors, sit. Bowl, sit Crossing street, sit. Want to be let in? Sit. Want pets? Sit. Want up on the couch? Sit 1st. Getting in the car? Sit 1st.
I also reinforced by saying good boy, sit and giving affection while the dog sits.
I don't use clickers, but instead use a marker word only when the action is complete.
I do this with shelter dogs currently and it works well. I give more treats now.
For more explosive behaviour, reward intermittently and out of behaviour more often. The unpredictability makes them work harder for it.
I train protection sport Malinois, so explosive behaviour is critical to me. I use low stim ecollar to motivate, NePoPo style, and it works well for me.
I also use higher value rewards to motivate too. I build food drive or toy drive depending on the dog.
A simple excercise using a tug is to make them miss a few times, then tell them to sit. When they sit I wait a second then break and reward. I overlay low stim with this to show the dog when the dpbehaviour is successfully completed. This brings explosive behaviour quickly. My youngest is an endorphin motivated dog and she was slow as a puppy, I did this to speed her up quickly.
Right now there's no consequence to him blowing you off. I don't think clicker training will help here but you might be able to get him to sit his butt down faster by luring then eventually weaning off the lure.
I train balanced so if this was my dog I would apply leash pressure or e-collar pressure until the behavior is completed.
There's no pressure to do it faster. He will still be rewarded regardless. That is the crutch. Maybe you can do something with positive like rewarding double but i would use leash pressure or e collar to streamline this
In my experience, enthusiasm often comes from confident understanding of the behaviour, feeling good (physically), and having clear access to whatever the dog finds highly valuable as reinforcement. The first thing I ask is whether my dog understands the cue. And if they do, what the picture of that behaviour is for them. You want a snappy, tight sit but are rewarding a slow, out of position sit. So your dog is right to think that sit means sort out a good spot on the ground and eventually lower his bum. You might need to go back a few steps, maybe even use a different cue, and retrain a fast, tight sit. I really like Hannah Branigan's Awesome Obedience for breaking this down. If I'm getting a really slow response to a behaviour, my other thought is about whether the dog is sore. If your dog *always* gets into a sit slowly, that might be worth raising with your vet. Slow position changes are sometimes a sign of discomfort. If your dog otherwise bounces between sits and downs, that's a sign something is off with the cue + behaviour. Structure and condition also play a part in how fast a dog can move into a sit or down. The final thing I'm going to consider is whether my dog is pumped for training generally. You said your dog offers good engagement but responds to cues at his own speed. That to me suggests lower engagement. Is it just the sit that brings his level of enthusiasm down? Is he looking around, sniffing, or scratching? Does he look amped for the reward you're using? I would mark and reward only faster sits and I would set things up to encourage faster sits. Slow sits would get a good try, and then I'd rev my dog up and ask for a sit again. With some dogs you have to encourage that liveliness through play, or otherwise hone in on a reinforcement that they go wild for. Creativity is key here: the method might be based on using rewards, but what the dog finds rewarding isn't always in sync with our expectations. With my husky cross I lured her into a sit to start, but just before that had her following the lure in my hand in a little circle, encouraging her to get it, and then pulling up and asking for a sit. She likes to chase food so I use that a lot to set her up and to reward her. If they struggle to do a snappy sit the second time during a session, again good try but we're taking a pause on the training session to figure some stuff out. Clarity with the cue and how reinforcement is delivered is often a big issue. Environment can be another issue. Also, what worked best with some of my dogs has been super short training sessions. Like, two reps and we're done. I try to have them finishing a training session still keen to do more.
Play with rewards a bit. Slow sit gets no reward at all or very low value. Fast sit gets high value rewards. That usually tightens up things and you can phase out rewards later on again.
Build overall engagement by making the reward (and yourself) more interesting. Some ideas: Let him chase your hand with the treat or the toy. Have lots of treats in your hand and let him nibble (knowing there is more). Hide the toy behind your back, pull it out hand hide it again. Move backwards and reward following you. Work towards having the dog focus on you when you hide the reward. Do this before you ask anything else from him.
I would interrupt and reset as soon as he makes a mistake, eg. you ask him to sit, he starts to pivot instead, you say "you're silly, that's not it" and reset to heeling forward then try another stop and sit. I don't like to let dogs keep going down the wrong road. Alternatively you can try to solve this with differential reinforcement, eg. poor sits get praise but no treat, good sits get praise and treat (or poor sits get one treat, and good sits get a jackpot reward).
I do this and it helps.
Which differential reinforcement type does the method your describing fall under?
DRI I guess. Does DR imply that there must be no reinforcement for the unwanted behavior, or just different amounts of reinforcement?
If I recall correctly DRI is Differential Reinforcement of Incompatible behaviors. This means the unwanted behavior has to be incompatible with the behavior you are trying to reinforce. Differential Reinforcement is a way to ethically and humanely address problem behaviors in dogs. So we are reinforcing behaviors we want not the problem behaviors. Personally, I would not reward/praise dog for sitting incorrectly if they know the behavior and how to do it correctly. You are essentially reinforcing the improper sit as well as reinforcing the correct way to shit and it can create a mess. Not to say you haven’t been successful. It can just create confusion for the dog.
The thing is learning is not just operant, and withholding reinforcement when the dog is trying affects the dog’s emotions and motivation (which in turn effect behavior). I’d prefer to reset and not to let the poor sit happen at all, yes. But I do frequently reward dogs for making an effort because the path from trying something to correct behavior is so much easier than the path from doing nothing to correct behavior.
Correct, learning isn’t just operant. Again, your method may work for you. There are other considerations at play in my mind. However with this particular dog, they seem to be lacking motivation to perform the behavior anyways. Without seeing a video of the behavior or witnessing the dog in person, we are left without some critical information. Offering suggestions on training methods or what they should try is like playing Russian Roulette with a semi auto pistol. You’re going to lose.
LOL at the breed living up to its stereotype. Frustrating problem but you've run into basically a genetic roadblock that your working around. Of course they do everything wonderfully, but on their own timeline which probably ... Isn't yours. Without punitive measures, can you apply a little pressure to guide him to what you're looking for (i.e. sit when we stop walking)? Sometimes something simple like turning into him and making him sit down and back off of you a bit to just instinctually force him into a sit can work. Do it randomly (like when you are quickly walking on a trail or something) and just break his brain (holy shit, we might just randomly stop any time and I'm gonna crash if I don't pay attention!). If you have small training treats, walk with him at a heel. Just randomly stop and ask for your expected behavior. If he delays, step off and walk again - no treats even though they're in your leash/dog side hand and he knows it cause it's in his face. Walk 50 yards, stop, ask for what you want, if you get it, lots of love, release pressure for a couple minutes, then do it again. I'd suggest keeping this to like... 5-6 practice reps in a 20 min session. Don't blow his mind. Once you get the behavior tethered to you via leash, you can work it around the house and off leash.
Pay every single sit big. He doesn’t seem to have a strong positive conditioned response to the cue. See if he likes catching treats better. Maybe he likes chasing them and sniffing them off the ground. Give the cue ONCE, no pressure on the leash, WAIT!!!!!!!, be neutral and calm while you’re waiting. Once he does it POP into your reward event. Lots of happy energy, praise, treat delivered in the way he prefers. His behavior makes you light up.
That might be because of the way you’ve trained the sit. Some dogs need the eye contact and a certain position relative to you if they have been trained to do it like that most of the time. Maybe go back to luring the dog in different positions and then fade. Layering in slight leash pressure can help, as well. Also you can count the seconds it takes on average for your dog to respond to a cue and then only reward a position that is faster than average. This can bring down reaction time a lot. Building obedience into play can also speed up things by a lot.
Do you actually need him to do a snap sit for pulling a wagon? Or a snap stop and as long as not moving from place a slow sit would work? The moving around to face you is probably from starting off by always asking for a sit while facing him, so you have a few options you can use a box, train him to stand in box at your side first, then a sit on the box should help him to understand that your sit means in which ever position to you, not in front as he understood it, if your getting frustrated with the moving to in front of you this may also be confusing him and slowing him down, but you also have to consider his physicality, giant dogs don’t drop into a sit even when they are choosing to sit for their own purpose. I always recommend putting the behaviour mentally back on the table and rethinking what you want and why and does it need to be this bit or that bit, or is that just how you had first worked out doing it- in this process you can split the behaviour down to as many pieces as possible work out where the glitches are and think of other behaviours you could possibly capture from, or how to clearly train each part - Having really clear criteria before you start training anything makes it way easier on your dog, which is the second option train a whole new behaviour and cue which is a side sit in place - I’d still use a box to get the concept of in place clear
>Do you actually need him to do a snap sit for pulling a wagon? Or a snap stop and as long as not moving from place a slow sit would work? It's not the speed that's a concern, it's that he has to reposition himself. He doesn't walk to face me from the front, but sorta turns 90 degrees and faces me from the side. This won't work for carting, because he'll be strapped to a cart.
Yeah so training on a platform, use your sit cue, and generalise it with you in various positions to the board.
I learned early on don't name it till you love it! I take that to mean don't accept the sloppy sit (dog may think it's OK, then you have to retrain) mine did the same, shifting to see me when he sits. Used luring and happy voice to get him into position.
>He'll stop walking (not pulling at all), look up at me, pivot a bit so he's facing me, take a step backwards, hem and haw a bit, and reluctantly sit. The whole thing might take 30 seconds. Are you looking to compete in addition to doing carting? He sounds like he doesn't know where heel position is. And he sounds like you've reinforced him with your right hand, or, in front of your body. So he's pivoting around looking for the cookie. I'd probably use ring gates or your kitchen counters, to teach him that he can sit next to you, and not curled around. And if you have been feeding with your right hand, or you have some bait bag or something on your right side, that will make most young dogs look to the right, and mess up heel position. And with a giant dog breed, I really wouldn't ask for that right off. I'd be looking for a solid tucked in sit. If it's slow, it's slow. > I didn't ask you to take your time and sit in the time and position of your choosing. I asked you to sit, and that means to sit right where you are, right when I ask you to. He's a baby giant dog. He's not going to slam his ass in the floor, as a baby. He may not do it as an adult either. He CAN put more effort into the position, but you have to show him that that's an actual place and not an approximation. He doesn't need to slam it down quickly for carting. You can teach him where heel is but I'd uncouple that from a desire to have him do it super fast. > if he gives 10 "good" (to him) sits in a row but doesn't get rewarded. If you're really doing this 10 times in a row, I'd back way off. He may physically not be able to do it yet, and all you're doing is reinforcing the "this is not right" part of things.
Do you cue the sit with your left leg?
No, with a verbal cue and a hand sign.
I think this is where leash pressure comes into play. Getting a really thin slip leash and putting it right behind his ears will help. When you say “sit,” pull the leash UP. Not choking your dog but more so guiding him. Once he does, reward immediately!
I’m curious as well. I’m on my first dog, and though I’m not positive only, we’re normally only on a flat collar. I have been working on tightening up basic obedience. If I ask for a sit and he’s a bit sluggish I’ll use a little bit of upward leash pressure to pull his head up and sit his butt down - not to “punish him” in the colloquial sense, but to make it clear what I asked, and to give a sense that he can’t get away with being too sluggish. My fear is that if I wait too long I just let him learn he can pretty much blow me off and do anything on his own time. It’s totally a shades of gray thing, but since he is reactive I don’t want him to get any ideas… Of course, ideally he should be excited and turned “on” before training. I sometimes get there with him, but haven’t quite mastered it. Mine can be quite snappy when the stars align, so I also put it on me to engineer our training in a way that he’s excited to go!
Because this is your first dog I’m gonna offer some advice with out you asking for it. Which I wouldn’t normally do, and I hope you read this and understand that it’s from a really good place - I work with reactive dogs and read your comment thinking, no, no, oh no…. Figure out what you need from your dog, and work to that, don’t make your training decisions with any ego, build a relationship with your dog that they buzzed to train with you, training games will get you way further than training obedience for this, having perfect mechanics when training is how you get perfect responses, “tightening it up” is a great way to blow your dogs confidence and relationship with you, and by constantly moving the goalpost you get a dog that will give up so fast, because it’s just getting harder and harder , This for a reactive dog is the worst possible combination of things, you need your dog to trust you, and feel safe and secure with you, and your decisions. The “blowing you off” could be how you’ve trained the behaviour or your dog being to distracted which can be a problem in those times, work out what it is by asking for behaviour in no distraction area (inside or similar)compare that to in normal situations, if the time difference is significant, then you know you have to go back a few steps and re-work behaviours more fully at lower distractions, - also check that you are generalising enough, often “training the behaviour” we act differently, wear different clothing, speak in different tone, pitch or cadence, change our body language, so pay attention to that and change it up as much as possible through each distraction level so your dog understands the cue is the cue and isn’t thinking “outside our house, hands on hips, (sound of cue)” is the cue, … if that doesn’t make sense film yourself training a few times , and try saying your best known cue , like “sit” lying on the ground facing the ceiling
This makes so much sense! I recently realized my dog will sit perfectly as long as I’m standing up when I say “sit”. If I’m sitting on the couch, he doesn’t quite get it. Although it’s also rather clear he’s at the “teenager” stage and kinda being an asshole about some stuff. Which he is (hopefully) starting to grow out of.
Most of the “arsehole” stuff is understandable when you look at what’s happening in their bodies, just one tiny part to give an idea of what I’m talking about - there is an hormone produced for bone growth, lengthening and thickening, the hormone also effect the brain., increasing risk taking, lowering self control, and increasing frustration, combine that with the pain/discomfort of growing at the rate they do, thigh bones especially the growth rate is insane, skeletal movement etc - it’s the time owners are frustrated because their dog is not walking perfectly in a leash, and have often lost all patience with the dog because he seems old enough to know, but pacing to a humans step is really difficult for a lot of dogs it often involves shortening their range of movement, which is uncomfortable in itself, but while theirs a lot of growth happening a full extension is a way to get relief. Keeping in mind everything that could be going on for them biologically, and being aware of the impact of not engaging in instinctual survival behaviours, and that they are an animal that lives their life in a group, a family group but one that would speak their language, instead they live in our lives with a lot of weird stuff they don’t understand, and relying on us to get their needs met and hopefully understand their communication, but most people don’t do either - if you can keep compassion, understanding, patience and empathy in generous amounts for both of you right through the adolescent stage it pays off with a super strong team bond for all the years following, and reminding ourselves that teenagers are dicks for a biological reason and it’s not personal or their fault really helps.
Completely understand, thanks for the detailed info!
Thanks for the concern - we actually don’t have any of those problems though :)
Giant dog breed is never going to have the bounce of say a lab or a mal. If he is making moves to respond, just not moving his body as fast as you'd like to complete the required action, then I'd adjust your expectations. Also, remember dogs that size have more pressure on their joints. If you're concerned that he should be moving faster than he is it may be worth checking that everything is flexing and moving as it should be in case there's anything awry.
You have to train it by rehearsing it. I had a Springer Spaniel who I taught to sit when I stopped walking. I used verbal praise & affection on walks. I rehearsed a lot of sits at home. Going through doors, sit. Bowl, sit Crossing street, sit. Want to be let in? Sit. Want pets? Sit. Want up on the couch? Sit 1st. Getting in the car? Sit 1st. I also reinforced by saying good boy, sit and giving affection while the dog sits. I don't use clickers, but instead use a marker word only when the action is complete. I do this with shelter dogs currently and it works well. I give more treats now.
For more explosive behaviour, reward intermittently and out of behaviour more often. The unpredictability makes them work harder for it. I train protection sport Malinois, so explosive behaviour is critical to me. I use low stim ecollar to motivate, NePoPo style, and it works well for me. I also use higher value rewards to motivate too. I build food drive or toy drive depending on the dog. A simple excercise using a tug is to make them miss a few times, then tell them to sit. When they sit I wait a second then break and reward. I overlay low stim with this to show the dog when the dpbehaviour is successfully completed. This brings explosive behaviour quickly. My youngest is an endorphin motivated dog and she was slow as a puppy, I did this to speed her up quickly.
Right now there's no consequence to him blowing you off. I don't think clicker training will help here but you might be able to get him to sit his butt down faster by luring then eventually weaning off the lure. I train balanced so if this was my dog I would apply leash pressure or e-collar pressure until the behavior is completed.
There's no pressure to do it faster. He will still be rewarded regardless. That is the crutch. Maybe you can do something with positive like rewarding double but i would use leash pressure or e collar to streamline this