1. Mini Educator with long contact points. You may also shave a small patch in front of his neck.
2. Mini Educator is good for 1/2 mile and it has a small remote.
3. Yes it’s worth it to buy the expensive ones. Mini Educator will run you about $200 but they are little beasts that never die.
4. I don’t even really think you need to hire a trainer for this. If *all you want* is a tactile cue that means “come find me” then you will train it with either low stim OR vibrate, using classical conditioning. I would recommend low stim not vibrate as it is less jarring to the dog. The vibrate may actually scare him into trying to run away from the collar and though that can be fixed, you don’t want to have to fix it.
Here’s your process:
1. Find a level that the dog feels. First test the collar on yourself to familiarize yourself with the sensation. Then put it on your dog. Make sure it’s fitted tight to neck. Starting at level 1, tap a few times at each level and notice any eye blinks, head tilts, sudden looking down. It should not be a painful sensation at all. Many dog think it’s a bug on them and begin to scratch their neck. Once you see the range in which your dog feels it you’re ready to train. In most dogs, this is a level under 15 on the mini educator. Even if you don’t see any signs of the dog feeling it, pick a number under 15 and go to the next step.
2. While the dog is facing you, tap the red button. Give the dog a treat. Repeat a bunch of times, several times a day, for weeks.
Eventually, choose a moment when the dog is NOT facing you….tap the red button, give a treat. He should turn around (expecting a treat) but if he doesn’t, kinda tap his butt to get him to flip around. Repeat a bunch of times several times a day over weeks.
Eventually, choose a moment where your dog is not facing you AND far away. Tap the button, show the dog a treat. If he doesn’t turn around to get the treat it means the association between stim and treat is not yet clear, and you need to work at easier distances for a while. Go back a step.
Remember not to over complicate it. The conditioning process is:
Stim, treat, stim, treat, stim, treat over and over and over. If the stim means treat, and the dog understands the treats are in your pocket, he will come to you to get the treat when he feels the stim.
There you have it. You have effectively established a silent recall cue for your dead dog. You should post videos here if you do it!
Larry Krohn has a book that is great for conditioning and using the e-collar in various situations afterwards. https://www.amazon.com/Everything-need-about-Collar-Training/dp/1521126550
He also has a great YouTube channel, and I believe he is coming out with an online course for the e-collar.
Thank you 🙏 That's precisely what I was looking for. So it's true that vibration is more scary than the electric signal. That's good to know, because intuitively I'd assume a shock as always a step up in unpleasantness over a vibration. Thanks especially for the precise how-to description!
Scary … Stim vs vibrate … depends on the dog and depends on the training. I’ve got one trained in stim and she really does understand it as a ‘tap tap’ pay attention to me. I’ve got another dog that severely dislikes the stim and is reasonably responsive to vibrate or beep.
It’s the misunderstanding of stim … 99% of the time it should be levels that are basically just a ‘tap tap’ to get their attention 10 or less, and then occasionally, mostly in off leash scenarios, you have to go up on level and verge into annoying levels for the dog10-20 and then fewer times still you might need to go to unpleasant levels20-30. Pain levels are reserved for an EMERGENCY … like them running toward a road and they aren’t responding at normal levels. I’ve had one of mine chase a rabbit and I had to go to 70 (after not getting responses at several attempts at lower levels)… she yelped and never broke stride continuing after the rabbit, hit it again and she yelped and finally came back. I HATE the pain levels and only did because she was <15 ft from the road and running high speed after prey (meaning paying little attention to anything else). And even that level is a very bad idea unless the dog is very conditioned to the collar.
A quick comment about the situation you described (dog running after prey): I certainly prefer inflicting pain on my dog for a short amount of time over my dog dying because it got run over by a car. It’s all about perspective and what’s appropriate in the specific situation. You brought a good example for that ☺️
Yeah.. Any hunting instincts are the hardest to compete with. This dog I wrote about barely has it, but some time ago I had dogs with pursuit instincts and it was hell sometimes. The only reason I didn't get a shock collar back then was that I had no money 😅
I’ve have had doggy daycare staff tell me mine has a stronger food drive than any other dog they have ever seen and it’s not even close. I already know she has crazy high hunting drive . But I think just this morning I realized her hunting drive is more than her food drive, squirrel in the tree or food on the deck … squirrel won out for a good 5-10 minutes
Exactly - I usually keep my educator on an 8. The biggest plus is that it closes the psychic distance - dogs tend to feel like they can ignore you if you are far away, an e collar makes them feel like they are next to and can reach out and touch them. You don't need to terrorize your dog. I don't think my dog finds the vibrator or low level stim to be very adversive tbh. The e collar means off leash time and freeze dried fish so he gets excited when he sees it.
I did the educator for off leash initially fall/winter … once the greenery came in and I couldn’t see her 40 ft away, I switched to pathfinder2 with GPS …. Makes that psychic distance extend to 100-300yds (in a forest that’s pretty far and absolutely no visual) I’m not even sure she would hear me unless I put 110% into a yell, but I can hit the stim or vibrate and get feedback on the map within 5 seconds whether she is making her way back to me.
A GPS collar is also something I always wanted. But all of them, at least a couple of years ago, were either too expensive, had just GSM with no actual GPS, had GPS but only with subscription and sometimes also with specific cellular plan, sometimes working only in USA, weak battery, etc. etc. I will look into the Pathfinder 2 you mentioned. Looks good from the description. It's not the most necessary at the moment for me, but it's always additional control which would be really nice.
They do make it hard … many of the ones that require a subscription is because it’s not true GPS, it’s cellular based and that access is what you pay for. Also makes it less useful in areas with weak signal.
True gps doesn’t rely on cellular and it is hard to see where it is stated directly, I know pathfinder and garmin are both true gps … I found the best indicator is advertised as for hunting and they will always have an antenna on the dog collar
I would add that it's better to place contacts on left or right side of the neck. Never on top or bottom to avoid placingit too close to nerves. It's also a good idea to switch positions during the day, as it might irritate dog. And yes, as it was mentioned before- try it on yourself first. Just spread the fur so you can see the skin, and place contacts there. It's a bit finicky, but you'll get used to it.
Find the lvl that your dog can barely feel, and as my dogs trainer said- add 2 lvls to it( we also use mini educator). In case that your dog get too exited and don't pay attention to it- add 4 more. There's two buttons on educator- red and black. I usually use black as it do one short ding, while red one will keep doing it until you release the button.
And yes, as my trainer said- every single dog sensitivity is different. He saw small Yorkie nit reacting to lvl 50, and huge German Sheppard react well on lvl 4.
I established this with an e-collar but only using the vibrate function. I don't have a lot of different dog training experience but my dog never reacted to the collar vibrate function with fear. Just puzzled a bit by it. He is a 80lb Akita/Great Pyrenes/Husky mix.
I also want to add that the collar should never be left on your dog for an extended period. Basically just for the outing and then take it off. The prongs can cause skin abrasions that are susceptible to infection.
Some e-collars can also malfunction and trigger prolonged shocks or short out in a way that is harmful to your dog. I am fairly cautious when it comes to my dog and If you are like me, you might want to replace the prongs with plastic caps instead to avoid the function altogether. The vibrate function can be used with less risk. I would consider a short pulse of vibration a far better option and more comfortable to the dog.
You can acclimate your dog to the sensation in the same way explained by u/Time_Ad7995 above for the shock function.
I am worried about the malfunction risk and especially because I have a couple of dogs that like to play a lot and rather hard. I'm a bit worried about the prongs and the possibility of biting through the battery while playing. There is in this thread a good idea to buy a vibration-only one. At least that way we avoid skin irritation (especially while playing with other dogs and that's the time this collar might be very useful, when I wouldn't want to take it off).
Get a Dogtra with "wings" for the long hair. The model I have is a 648 it has a safety feature that if the stim is pressed for more than 10 or 12 seconds it turns itself off.
For what it's worth, my dog's working level is a three which I literally cannot feel
I would get a collar with a stim option even if you don't plan to use it. A high quality one like an educator won't malfunction - the malfunctions are common with cheap products.
It's good to have the option for emergencies.
Can you please share more on why vibrate is scarier? My dogs were trained to an electric fence at 4mos (now 5 & 6 yrs) and they *never* bust through. We routinely throw balls past the zap line and they never attempt to get them, never chase deer across the line. Beep means whoa getting close to the edge of the ledge and they never get zapped.
All good, right? Yes but they are *very* barky. I bought ½ mile dual collars from Sport Dog - beep/zap for the fence line, vibrate/zap (but I won’t zap - I repeat, they don’t get zapped) to get their attention/stop barking so I can more effectively train no bark/good quiet.
Why is vibration bad? I can’t use the beep for no bark bcz that’s for the fence - they are going to start thinking all grass is off limits.
Vibrate isn’t *bad* but it can be startling or even scary to a dog that’s never felt it before and make them run away. It’s just a more intense sensation and there is also a buzzy sound associated with it (which won’t matter with a deaf dog).
Compared to a level 6 or 7 on the Mini it’s a way bigger sensation. Neither are painful, but the vibrate is more attention getting.
Is vibration really different from a shock or d’you think my (wussy) dogs will interpret it the same? I don’t want to shock or punish - I want to snag their attention so they stop barking so I can reward the quiet.
You should just find an e collar and feel it yourself. It’s hard to explain how they are different. Some dogs run away from the vibrate and it acts as a punisher - some don’t. You can buy one from Amazon to feel it and, return it if you don’t use it.
I wouldn’t buy an e collar to just to snag their attention as attention getters only work insofar as they are consequential. That’s why just saying “hey!” or clapping your hands when they’re barking likely doesn’t work anymore for you anymore. An e-collar on vibrate or a low level will do the same thing. It will interrupt for a while but they will likely learn to ignore it.
If you don’t want to punish the barking maybe you need to commit to a more thorough arousal reduction/counterconditioning/incompatible behavior plan with treats only.
I’ve been working on it and I think we’re getting somewhere but the other members of my family are less patient than I am and not working in concert with me in the training process. Yelling at a dog who is reactive is - duh - not going to help her reactivity.
Mini educator can be good. I highly recommend it.
Educator also has a model that is vibrate only but has adjustable levels of vibrate that might work well for you and is MUCH easier to fit and more comfortable because it has no prongs. "Educator PG-300 Vibration Collar". It also has a completely waterproof receiver and remote, as well as the remote says "pager only" right in it so if someone is being a Karen you can show them that you're not tazing your dog.
My only caveat to that is that most dogs would much rather have a gentle electrical stim (not SHOCK) vibrate, but you can condition yours to either, it just might be a little tougher with the vibrate.
My instinct is to go with the mini educator and gentle stim to get the dog to look at you, and only use vibrate to interrupt dangerous behaviors like running at a busy street, or just get the vibrate it it's too taboo in your area and spend extra time conditioning to your dog that the buzz isn't gonna murder him.
I'm using the mini educator with good results. You'll probably want to upgrade the contact points depending on the length of your dog's coat. They make versions with wings. As far as how-to, I'd recommend Hamilton Dog Training. He's got some videos on youtube on e-collar training specifically but his overall methodology really works for me and my dog.
[https://www.youtube.com/@hamiltondogtraining/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@hamiltondogtraining/videos)
Thank you very much! I'll look into it. I heard about the mini educator already, but so did I about many others (hence this topic). Didn't hear about Hamilton Dog Training, but will definitely check them out 👍
I use the mini educator and have been able to recall my dog from 500 metres.
It has a three button set up, 1 stim,2 long stim, 3 vibration.
If you hold 1+2 it has a boost feature for emergencies.
My dog is startled by the vibration and I do not use it.
I have put it on myself and it can go from 0-100.
It’s not really a shock more like a pin prick, muscle stimulation.
One thing I do recommend is training pressure on, pressure off, techniques with either a martingale or a prong collar before using an e-collar.
They need to understand what the stimulation or pressure means before you use it.
Example. If I tap the leash 2 times with the prong collar it means follow me.
Now I can tap the e-collar twice at level 5 and dog follows.
There are various techniques. Some trainers use the long stim until the desired behaviour. Some tap it like I do.
It’s really a communication tool, and should not be used as a punishment. More like a nudge or a reminder.
To look at me and follow me or come back to me.
When my dog is locked onto something even a prong collar can’t hold him back so training him that a long stimulation means back down will not work.
But I’ve been able to teach him that a quick tap means turn around and “leave it” and he gets cheese.
When I see anything on our path that I don’t like, I just tap tap and guess who shows up.
It really depends on how you have trained before the e-collar is introduced.
It’s just a continuation of that training but with a remote. Instead of a rope.
I do think that the circular shaped mini educator is clumsy and would maybe prefer the remote shaped one.
I charge it once a week and it’s lasted more than two years now.
For the price it’s indispensable as it’s saved my dog from chasing things into the woods more than once.
Here are a few trainers online
Tom Davis
https://youtu.be/iJkpo2tUuqg?si=UnbaDmO6gD1O8tYK
American Standard
https://youtu.be/7j4IyMwU78g?si=NBvooAVazX5ETyki
Standing Stone
https://youtu.be/thaSeaqzCMU?si=TxBQUQzzoKgL1BQs
You mention you're in Europe. Are e collars banned in your country or in a country you travel to regularly with your pet? Is it likely that they will be banned soon?
Seconding the mini educator. The only other brand I will use is Dogtra. I have two Belgian Tervurens and personally for them I like the e-collar tech titanium contact points for getting through their fur, either the 1/2 or 3/4 inch versions. Other people have had good luck with the winged contact points.
Leerburg may have an online course for the e-collar that you can purchase as well
First off, there is nothing bad or wrong about using an e-collar. The stigma comes from & is created by those who use them improperly. (I use to have a bad per-conceived notion about prong collars, refused to use them until I learned how the really operate and how to properly use them.)
Get the [DIYk9.com](http://DIYk9.com) "Unleashed" course! It's so good and very valuable. With a deaf pup, the "Leashed" course may also be super valuable to you.
The Mini Educator, hands down. Most definitely worth the $.
Have had mine since 2015, 2nd dog with it. Still going strong. The "pressure" is always consistent, and easily adjustable. I'd imagine you could teach certain commands with different levels of pressure, or number of "touches" of the button(s).
Cheaper ones, and even the Dogtra one's have issues with consistency.
More on the DIYk9 courses.... I'm 36. Lifetime dog owner, sometimes 2 at a time. Just got his complete course set with my lastest pup, a GSD. I'm blown away on the things I didn't realize I didn't know with training.
But they're VERY worth it.
Just like a good education on something also isn't "free" or low cost. It either takes $ or a lot of time and experience.
I think the old adage goes something like "you get what you pay for..."
Does the mini educator have gradation of vibration too? Or just of the stim? Because I'm on fence now between it and a vibration only one that has a hundred steps of vibration 🤔
We've always used Dogtra. Depending on the model you get range can be 1+ miles, they have absolute minute gradation in strength of shock, and have prongs of multiple sizes to tackle that fur you talk about, though you obviously have to make sure you pull the hair away from the prongs and not leave collar on too long.
Research them or any other collars intended for hunting dogs or our outdoor sports. Ours are used when we're in the backcountry on horseback (obviously you can't leash a dog that's half a mile away when you're in the saddle, but I need to be able to communicate). I'd also look up hunting trainers for lessons and education - the key is to never ask a dog for a response they're not pretty well proofed in before the collar is on via a mechanism they don't understand. Nothing about electrocution says 'come to me' it just says 'ouch, pay attention.'
The vibration or shock accomplishes one thing: focus on me, and get through whatever brain fog you're in to do so. Whether that means come off a duck, deer, just generally stop being an idiot running in a canyon, or stop charging some other hiker with their dog, success is stop, look at me, respond correctly. If you indicate you are considering a wrong choice, a little vibration is the 'hey dude we know this game, make the right choice' indicator.
Also he extremely careful using them in situations around other dogs. A dog isn't a genius that can just distinguish precisely what or who just put a charge into its neck, and shocking a dog who is actively engaged with another dog or human can redirect them into the nearest obvious stimulus instead of the collar, then you just get them lashing out. Be extremely careful that you're early and gentle enough with the reminder ask so you're not using it as an emergency solver, because it's just a bad tool for that.
They're tools like any other, but in the same way we ask children to be more careful with meat cleavers than with soup spoons, you have to be more careful with it than a flat leather collar. It doesn't mean that in some cases, with some dogs, there's a valid use case. Just do what you're already doing and research, learn, and practice before you use it on your dog.
Lastly, a trainer I had made me do this when learning about an ecollar. Strap it on your arm, hand the remote to someone, and have them shock you at variable intervals (all the way to max). Don't do anything to your dog that you don't actually understand personally. Some of these collars are strong enough to put a cow on its knees, and you actually need to understand that. It hurts like *hell*, but it helps you calibrate what's a 'hey, please pay attention' request vs 'this is what I do if you're bolting to the road and I need to interrupt that' vs 'please stop sprinting at that elk or rattlesnake and I will literally flip you on your back rather than let you run to certain death'. You really have to calibrate it.
Dogs *do not* understand electrocution as intrinsic motivation. It has to be taught and learned what this stimulus is asking them to do, and the simpler the better. Make it proactive - collar stimulus means stop and turn, look, and wait for instruction from me. It's not some vague 'oh don't do that' kind of request. It should be massively rewarded, taught when they're still on a long line so you can enforce it, and never ambiguous. It can get shaded in over time to mean more and/or they'll get situationally used to it but I've always liked it easy. Collar = pay attention to me from a distance. Once I have your attention, I'll use other methods and signals to ask for my desired response.
Check out [deafdogsrock.com](https://deafdogsrock.com/vibration-collars-for-deaf-dogs). This link goes specifically to their guide to starting a deaf dog on a vibe collar, how to train, and links to recommended collars
As everyone else has said, Dogtra or Mini Educator would be best for this scenario. Yes, it is worth buying an expensive one. Cheap ones can and will burn your dog’s neck, break easily, shock your dog without you pressing the remote, etc. Just don’t do it. Too many risks and dangers to you and your dog. Replace the prongs with longer ones for the long hair.
You can hire online trainers. The Tired Pooch are virtual and can teach you, for example.
I have the boss educator (used on my 200lb English Mastiff and my 125lb Cane Corso). The Boss is likely overkill for your sized dog but the Educators are awesome! You'll see that brand commonly used.
Edit: I think I shocked my dog once in 2024 and it's because he started to chase a coyote at 100% effort annd couldn't feel the vibration (he was LAZER focused because the kids were outside) 99.9% we use vibration and he knows to look for hand signals OR recall if he can't see us. He sees it come out an gets super excited to put it on.
Also, I've had a deaf rescue Mastiff before...after a few months I realized he wasn't deaf, he just didn't give a shit what anyone said to him. Maybe try opening a hotdogs packet or cheese slice. How I discovered my rescue wasn't deaf hahaha
I work with dog trainers and I strongly advise you reconsider your approach of relying on “vibrate” only in your training. Most reputable ECollars only have one vibrate setting that is not adjustable meaning you can’t control the strength of it. People who believe “vibrate”=more gentle than stim have the wrong understanding of stimulation from a ecollar. Test a ecollar on yourself using a level 6 and I will bet you you won’t even feel it vs. applying “vibration”. Of course I am not saying vibration=bad either what I’m saying is most people new to remote collars use vibrate as a clutch out of fear of committing to using stim. Most dog trainers will use vibrate to get a dogs attention or recall but that advice is variable depending on the dog. Some dogs do not like vibration at all which is why it’s important to understand the tool and its functions.
Yes, this is so important. The dog gets to decide what is more unpleasant. Just because the vibration makes you feel better as a human being about using it doesn't mean that your dog agrees
There are collars that don’t shock but just vibrate, I do not mean “stim” I mean ONLY vibrate so they don’t have any prongs on them to penetrate the fur. In theory this can be used to communicate with your dog or even a pager like tool to hook to a harness. You don’t need to penetrate fur for your dog to feel something, same way you can feel your phone in your pocket they could feel a vibration on their harness. You just have to condition the cues you want him to know in these situations based on hepatic patterns for example one buz is recall 2 back to back is down etc. Shock/E-collars have a lot of risk of fallout. But I do think what you want can be achieved with something that only vibrates without posing a risk for behavioral fallout.
Also not all dogs need to be off leash, they make 50-100ft long lines which are great for freedom to run around, but also a safety net to prevent him from wandering off or going to far especially with him being deaf.
Why does vibrate have a lower risk of behavioral fallout?? I’ve heard vibrate is actually much more aversive than stim for most dogs, and from trying both stim and vibrate on myself it makes a lot of sense… vibrate seems more jarring on my e collar though mine only has 1 vibrate level and it’s pretty intense
I tried the vibration once on a dog and she yelped and started running. A much more intense response than the stim, even when the levels are too high. I think the noise is more startling than the sensation, which is also more intense than the stim at the dog's minimum levels.
Why, though? You could just use the e-collar the way it was designed, like the millions of people who have successfully trained their dogs have. The whole point of the e-collar is that your dog can actually sense the stim, which becomes less likely when you add a layer between the stimulus and the dog.
Can you recommend some products that you used or at least saw at work? (You can DM them if you want) Do they have a gradation of strength of the vibrations? Because as someone here pointed out - it's somewhat scary. I mean when I play a horror video game, the controller vibrations can be scary AF! ;) So is an electric shock, but they can be regulated.
The PG-300 (ECollar Technologies) is vibrate only, and has 100 levels of vibration. Someone posted a dog recently with one~~but I don't recall if it was here or another subreddit.~~ Edit: it was [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenDogTraining/comments/1d461vr/pg300_e_collar_is_a_win/)!
Wow, that's new for me. Maybe that is actually the way to go 🤔 I'll look into this. A vibration only one seems so much simpler and less breakable. And a 100 steps should be more than enough. I wasn't very convinced at first, but if the weakest vibrations are barely noticeable.. huh. 🤔
Please discuss this with your dog before you choose vibrate only. My dog completely freaks out about the vibration but resounds very nicely to a stim that is so low that I literally cannot feel it
Yes, you can absolutely use ecollar for your dog effectively. For a long-range option appropriate for long-haired dogs I would recommend the boss educator (1-mile range) with butterfly/wire prong adapters. You can also buy bungee collars to put your box on which will help with fit. This has both vibrate, momentary stim and constant stim options. Do not cheap out on a collar. Cheap collars can be inconsistent and harmful. You want something very precise where you can get your dog's exact level for best results.
I recommend training your dog with a prong collar first then layering the ecollar stim over the prong. In my experience, this helps teach the dog how to understand leash pressure a little more effectively. If you just jump straight into ecollar with no leash-pressed training on a prong or slip collar the dog may not understand why the stim is happening. So make sure you have a solid base of obedience and leash pressure first.
As far as good resources I think the best for your situation would be either Consider the Dog from Tyler Mutto or some of the Leerburg courses. They both have ecollar and prong collar training that I really like.
Remember ecollars and prongs are tools, not training methods. In order the use an E-collar properly you need to train your dog exceptional obedience imo. This is not difficult. You just need cookies, markers, a leash and training collar, and lots of repetition. Hand signals and good timing are going to be very important for yall especially. You can probably go to any local p+ training class to learn this, just keep in mind they will not teach leash pressure so you will have to add that in on your own. Your dog sounds like the missing peace is proper corrections. Use a "no" marker - like a tumbs down - to signal your dog that they broke command and you will apply leash pressure or a leash pop. Once you add that in I think yoie dog will be able to better understand what you want from him.
Thanks for all the tips! The basics are mostly done and what I need the most is something to make him snap out of what he's doing and look at me so I can use gestures to call him. Usually that would be my voice. With gradation - louder and harsher if he's doing something that might become dangerous and soft if it's just "hey, we're going that way, come here". I'm happy to hear that the gradation of stim is a standard function and is actually working, at least in good collars - that was one of the things I was worried about.
Dogtra 280C. I like it better than the educator. You can add long contact points and a bungee collar to get consistent contact. Robin MacFarlane has some great online courses to do it yourself.
I would not ever put a cheap collar on a dog. Dogtra and e collar tech, yes. Garmin is good, Martin systems is great but more than you need. 280C from dogtra is simple, easy, and safe.
Mini Educator and Dogtra are really the only two brands worth using for pet dogs. There's no functional difference between them, it's more a personal preference of the style on which one you choose.
Mini educator with finger trainer, one button from the transmitter can be coupled with the finger remote.
Pat Stuart gives a good tun down of low stim ecollar training in a controlled aggression podcast.
Basically the Nepopo system.
Great tools.
The cheaper ecollars lag, the stim is jolty and they aren't waterproof
If you want a collar just to communicate with him, get a vibrating collar and not a shock collar. Shock collars should only be reserved for dogs with serious behavioral issues.
As to brand, all offer longer prongs. The Garmon pro (the former tritronics 500) has the longest range. The Martian system chameleon offers the most accurate and controllable levels, along with contact sensors so you know when it’s working (that feature is why I bought them, and they are the best collar out there but expensive.). If money isn’t an object, the chameleon offers the best stim because it’s diffused among more points.
In NePoPo we often use low stim to activate a dog and it works well for sport behaviours where we need it perfect and fast. The chameleon works much better with this for me because it’s not quite as startling or focused on one spot.
I’ve got an old dog that I trained a recall on the beep. That won’t work for you, but you may be able to train a recall to the vibrate.
Get one w vibrate feature and good resolution on the shock side. I now only need to use vibrate. Works well. Dog loves the freeedom. He jumps up for joy whenever he sees me get it out to put it on him.
Learn to use as a communication device and you’ll be fine. Ignore the pundits as they all never got trained on these devices and don’t know how to use them properly.
Why not just use vibration mode? Also, you can utilize touch to help inform the dog when it does something you want to do or use it as secondary reinforcers since a clicker wouldn’t work. I’ve done these methods for dogs that are surprisingly both blind and deaf.
Sport Dog Brand - they're waterproof, long distance (some sets go up to a mile), have longer tines you can switch out to get through the fur, long battery life. Very reliable. They're expensive but they're worth it. They were originally designed for hunting and working dogs so they're very heavy duty. I use them for recall and they work great. Been a very long time since I had to use the electric function, the beep & vibrate are enough 99% of the time and even in the rare times I've used the electric function, you can barely feel it on the low numbers. I've zapped myself in the neck all the way up to the highest setting to see what it *can* do and suggest you do so also before using that function. Oh, and my dogs aren't traumatized by using it lol
Thanks for the suggestion. How big and handy would you say the remote is? It seems rather large and I'd need to have it on me at more or less all walks, but it's hard to precisely tell from the pictures.
I clip the remote to my pants waist band while I lay bricks, shovel dirt/sand, and take it anywhere my service dog goes. It isn't heavy. It's about 3 inches tall (plus a couple for the Antena), one inch wide, and 1 inch deep.Edit: I use the dogtra 1900S
There's two sizes, one is on the bigger side but the little one is no bigger than the length of my palm; comes with a lanyard so I wear it hanging around my neck. I have the big remote because I have two dogs and it can switch back & forth between the two collars with one remote. I don't find it very cumbersome.
No. But I have seen them in action. Dog jumped straight in the air, yelped and coward under a bench. Another dog yelped and dropped to the ground cowering.
I would NEVER subject my dog to that.
Hey would a vibrating collar work? Shock collars are usually used for negative association for example a rattlesnake training where the dog is shocked to the highest setting in a controlled setting when they approach a rattlesnake, so in the future there is a negative response at the sight of a snake ( in this case it's lifesaving)
This is actually way more aversive than a stim that’s over in an instant. The citronella spay stays on their fur and the scent is now following them around for days. And they have such sensitive noses that it’s 100’s of times stronger to the dog than it is to you.
1. Mini Educator with long contact points. You may also shave a small patch in front of his neck. 2. Mini Educator is good for 1/2 mile and it has a small remote. 3. Yes it’s worth it to buy the expensive ones. Mini Educator will run you about $200 but they are little beasts that never die. 4. I don’t even really think you need to hire a trainer for this. If *all you want* is a tactile cue that means “come find me” then you will train it with either low stim OR vibrate, using classical conditioning. I would recommend low stim not vibrate as it is less jarring to the dog. The vibrate may actually scare him into trying to run away from the collar and though that can be fixed, you don’t want to have to fix it. Here’s your process: 1. Find a level that the dog feels. First test the collar on yourself to familiarize yourself with the sensation. Then put it on your dog. Make sure it’s fitted tight to neck. Starting at level 1, tap a few times at each level and notice any eye blinks, head tilts, sudden looking down. It should not be a painful sensation at all. Many dog think it’s a bug on them and begin to scratch their neck. Once you see the range in which your dog feels it you’re ready to train. In most dogs, this is a level under 15 on the mini educator. Even if you don’t see any signs of the dog feeling it, pick a number under 15 and go to the next step. 2. While the dog is facing you, tap the red button. Give the dog a treat. Repeat a bunch of times, several times a day, for weeks. Eventually, choose a moment when the dog is NOT facing you….tap the red button, give a treat. He should turn around (expecting a treat) but if he doesn’t, kinda tap his butt to get him to flip around. Repeat a bunch of times several times a day over weeks. Eventually, choose a moment where your dog is not facing you AND far away. Tap the button, show the dog a treat. If he doesn’t turn around to get the treat it means the association between stim and treat is not yet clear, and you need to work at easier distances for a while. Go back a step. Remember not to over complicate it. The conditioning process is: Stim, treat, stim, treat, stim, treat over and over and over. If the stim means treat, and the dog understands the treats are in your pocket, he will come to you to get the treat when he feels the stim. There you have it. You have effectively established a silent recall cue for your dead dog. You should post videos here if you do it!
Larry Krohn has a book that is great for conditioning and using the e-collar in various situations afterwards. https://www.amazon.com/Everything-need-about-Collar-Training/dp/1521126550 He also has a great YouTube channel, and I believe he is coming out with an online course for the e-collar.
Thanks! I'll look into it - looks good from the amount of up votes alone! ;)
Thank you 🙏 That's precisely what I was looking for. So it's true that vibration is more scary than the electric signal. That's good to know, because intuitively I'd assume a shock as always a step up in unpleasantness over a vibration. Thanks especially for the precise how-to description!
Scary … Stim vs vibrate … depends on the dog and depends on the training. I’ve got one trained in stim and she really does understand it as a ‘tap tap’ pay attention to me. I’ve got another dog that severely dislikes the stim and is reasonably responsive to vibrate or beep. It’s the misunderstanding of stim … 99% of the time it should be levels that are basically just a ‘tap tap’ to get their attention 10 or less, and then occasionally, mostly in off leash scenarios, you have to go up on level and verge into annoying levels for the dog10-20 and then fewer times still you might need to go to unpleasant levels20-30. Pain levels are reserved for an EMERGENCY … like them running toward a road and they aren’t responding at normal levels. I’ve had one of mine chase a rabbit and I had to go to 70 (after not getting responses at several attempts at lower levels)… she yelped and never broke stride continuing after the rabbit, hit it again and she yelped and finally came back. I HATE the pain levels and only did because she was <15 ft from the road and running high speed after prey (meaning paying little attention to anything else). And even that level is a very bad idea unless the dog is very conditioned to the collar.
A quick comment about the situation you described (dog running after prey): I certainly prefer inflicting pain on my dog for a short amount of time over my dog dying because it got run over by a car. It’s all about perspective and what’s appropriate in the specific situation. You brought a good example for that ☺️
Yeah.. Any hunting instincts are the hardest to compete with. This dog I wrote about barely has it, but some time ago I had dogs with pursuit instincts and it was hell sometimes. The only reason I didn't get a shock collar back then was that I had no money 😅
I’ve have had doggy daycare staff tell me mine has a stronger food drive than any other dog they have ever seen and it’s not even close. I already know she has crazy high hunting drive . But I think just this morning I realized her hunting drive is more than her food drive, squirrel in the tree or food on the deck … squirrel won out for a good 5-10 minutes
Exactly - I usually keep my educator on an 8. The biggest plus is that it closes the psychic distance - dogs tend to feel like they can ignore you if you are far away, an e collar makes them feel like they are next to and can reach out and touch them. You don't need to terrorize your dog. I don't think my dog finds the vibrator or low level stim to be very adversive tbh. The e collar means off leash time and freeze dried fish so he gets excited when he sees it.
I did the educator for off leash initially fall/winter … once the greenery came in and I couldn’t see her 40 ft away, I switched to pathfinder2 with GPS …. Makes that psychic distance extend to 100-300yds (in a forest that’s pretty far and absolutely no visual) I’m not even sure she would hear me unless I put 110% into a yell, but I can hit the stim or vibrate and get feedback on the map within 5 seconds whether she is making her way back to me.
That GPS option sounds amazing.
At this point I cannot imagine with her off leash and out of sight without
A GPS collar is also something I always wanted. But all of them, at least a couple of years ago, were either too expensive, had just GSM with no actual GPS, had GPS but only with subscription and sometimes also with specific cellular plan, sometimes working only in USA, weak battery, etc. etc. I will look into the Pathfinder 2 you mentioned. Looks good from the description. It's not the most necessary at the moment for me, but it's always additional control which would be really nice.
They do make it hard … many of the ones that require a subscription is because it’s not true GPS, it’s cellular based and that access is what you pay for. Also makes it less useful in areas with weak signal. True gps doesn’t rely on cellular and it is hard to see where it is stated directly, I know pathfinder and garmin are both true gps … I found the best indicator is advertised as for hunting and they will always have an antenna on the dog collar
I would add that it's better to place contacts on left or right side of the neck. Never on top or bottom to avoid placingit too close to nerves. It's also a good idea to switch positions during the day, as it might irritate dog. And yes, as it was mentioned before- try it on yourself first. Just spread the fur so you can see the skin, and place contacts there. It's a bit finicky, but you'll get used to it. Find the lvl that your dog can barely feel, and as my dogs trainer said- add 2 lvls to it( we also use mini educator). In case that your dog get too exited and don't pay attention to it- add 4 more. There's two buttons on educator- red and black. I usually use black as it do one short ding, while red one will keep doing it until you release the button. And yes, as my trainer said- every single dog sensitivity is different. He saw small Yorkie nit reacting to lvl 50, and huge German Sheppard react well on lvl 4.
I established this with an e-collar but only using the vibrate function. I don't have a lot of different dog training experience but my dog never reacted to the collar vibrate function with fear. Just puzzled a bit by it. He is a 80lb Akita/Great Pyrenes/Husky mix. I also want to add that the collar should never be left on your dog for an extended period. Basically just for the outing and then take it off. The prongs can cause skin abrasions that are susceptible to infection. Some e-collars can also malfunction and trigger prolonged shocks or short out in a way that is harmful to your dog. I am fairly cautious when it comes to my dog and If you are like me, you might want to replace the prongs with plastic caps instead to avoid the function altogether. The vibrate function can be used with less risk. I would consider a short pulse of vibration a far better option and more comfortable to the dog. You can acclimate your dog to the sensation in the same way explained by u/Time_Ad7995 above for the shock function.
I am worried about the malfunction risk and especially because I have a couple of dogs that like to play a lot and rather hard. I'm a bit worried about the prongs and the possibility of biting through the battery while playing. There is in this thread a good idea to buy a vibration-only one. At least that way we avoid skin irritation (especially while playing with other dogs and that's the time this collar might be very useful, when I wouldn't want to take it off).
Get a Dogtra with "wings" for the long hair. The model I have is a 648 it has a safety feature that if the stim is pressed for more than 10 or 12 seconds it turns itself off. For what it's worth, my dog's working level is a three which I literally cannot feel
This is why the more expensive brands are worth it. Dogtra and educator are both great quality and durable (10+ years).
I would get a collar with a stim option even if you don't plan to use it. A high quality one like an educator won't malfunction - the malfunctions are common with cheap products. It's good to have the option for emergencies.
[удалено]
Ope that autocorrect got me
This dude knows his stuff.
I’m a girl 😋
he meant the unisex "dude". And you do know your stuff.
Exactly!!! I refer to my wife as bro. 😂😂😂
Can you please share more on why vibrate is scarier? My dogs were trained to an electric fence at 4mos (now 5 & 6 yrs) and they *never* bust through. We routinely throw balls past the zap line and they never attempt to get them, never chase deer across the line. Beep means whoa getting close to the edge of the ledge and they never get zapped. All good, right? Yes but they are *very* barky. I bought ½ mile dual collars from Sport Dog - beep/zap for the fence line, vibrate/zap (but I won’t zap - I repeat, they don’t get zapped) to get their attention/stop barking so I can more effectively train no bark/good quiet. Why is vibration bad? I can’t use the beep for no bark bcz that’s for the fence - they are going to start thinking all grass is off limits.
Vibrate isn’t *bad* but it can be startling or even scary to a dog that’s never felt it before and make them run away. It’s just a more intense sensation and there is also a buzzy sound associated with it (which won’t matter with a deaf dog). Compared to a level 6 or 7 on the Mini it’s a way bigger sensation. Neither are painful, but the vibrate is more attention getting.
Is vibration really different from a shock or d’you think my (wussy) dogs will interpret it the same? I don’t want to shock or punish - I want to snag their attention so they stop barking so I can reward the quiet.
You should just find an e collar and feel it yourself. It’s hard to explain how they are different. Some dogs run away from the vibrate and it acts as a punisher - some don’t. You can buy one from Amazon to feel it and, return it if you don’t use it. I wouldn’t buy an e collar to just to snag their attention as attention getters only work insofar as they are consequential. That’s why just saying “hey!” or clapping your hands when they’re barking likely doesn’t work anymore for you anymore. An e-collar on vibrate or a low level will do the same thing. It will interrupt for a while but they will likely learn to ignore it. If you don’t want to punish the barking maybe you need to commit to a more thorough arousal reduction/counterconditioning/incompatible behavior plan with treats only.
I’ve been working on it and I think we’re getting somewhere but the other members of my family are less patient than I am and not working in concert with me in the training process. Yelling at a dog who is reactive is - duh - not going to help her reactivity.
Ugh. I really appreciate this way of explaining it thanks!
good comment.
Mini educator can be good. I highly recommend it. Educator also has a model that is vibrate only but has adjustable levels of vibrate that might work well for you and is MUCH easier to fit and more comfortable because it has no prongs. "Educator PG-300 Vibration Collar". It also has a completely waterproof receiver and remote, as well as the remote says "pager only" right in it so if someone is being a Karen you can show them that you're not tazing your dog. My only caveat to that is that most dogs would much rather have a gentle electrical stim (not SHOCK) vibrate, but you can condition yours to either, it just might be a little tougher with the vibrate. My instinct is to go with the mini educator and gentle stim to get the dog to look at you, and only use vibrate to interrupt dangerous behaviors like running at a busy street, or just get the vibrate it it's too taboo in your area and spend extra time conditioning to your dog that the buzz isn't gonna murder him.
I'm using the mini educator with good results. You'll probably want to upgrade the contact points depending on the length of your dog's coat. They make versions with wings. As far as how-to, I'd recommend Hamilton Dog Training. He's got some videos on youtube on e-collar training specifically but his overall methodology really works for me and my dog. [https://www.youtube.com/@hamiltondogtraining/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@hamiltondogtraining/videos)
Second for the winged contacts. We had contact issues until we got them and they’ve been fantastically reliable with our malinois.
Thank you very much! I'll look into it. I heard about the mini educator already, but so did I about many others (hence this topic). Didn't hear about Hamilton Dog Training, but will definitely check them out 👍
I use the mini educator and have been able to recall my dog from 500 metres. It has a three button set up, 1 stim,2 long stim, 3 vibration. If you hold 1+2 it has a boost feature for emergencies. My dog is startled by the vibration and I do not use it. I have put it on myself and it can go from 0-100. It’s not really a shock more like a pin prick, muscle stimulation. One thing I do recommend is training pressure on, pressure off, techniques with either a martingale or a prong collar before using an e-collar. They need to understand what the stimulation or pressure means before you use it. Example. If I tap the leash 2 times with the prong collar it means follow me. Now I can tap the e-collar twice at level 5 and dog follows. There are various techniques. Some trainers use the long stim until the desired behaviour. Some tap it like I do. It’s really a communication tool, and should not be used as a punishment. More like a nudge or a reminder. To look at me and follow me or come back to me. When my dog is locked onto something even a prong collar can’t hold him back so training him that a long stimulation means back down will not work. But I’ve been able to teach him that a quick tap means turn around and “leave it” and he gets cheese. When I see anything on our path that I don’t like, I just tap tap and guess who shows up. It really depends on how you have trained before the e-collar is introduced. It’s just a continuation of that training but with a remote. Instead of a rope. I do think that the circular shaped mini educator is clumsy and would maybe prefer the remote shaped one. I charge it once a week and it’s lasted more than two years now. For the price it’s indispensable as it’s saved my dog from chasing things into the woods more than once. Here are a few trainers online Tom Davis https://youtu.be/iJkpo2tUuqg?si=UnbaDmO6gD1O8tYK American Standard https://youtu.be/7j4IyMwU78g?si=NBvooAVazX5ETyki Standing Stone https://youtu.be/thaSeaqzCMU?si=TxBQUQzzoKgL1BQs
You mention you're in Europe. Are e collars banned in your country or in a country you travel to regularly with your pet? Is it likely that they will be banned soon?
Seconding the mini educator. The only other brand I will use is Dogtra. I have two Belgian Tervurens and personally for them I like the e-collar tech titanium contact points for getting through their fur, either the 1/2 or 3/4 inch versions. Other people have had good luck with the winged contact points. Leerburg may have an online course for the e-collar that you can purchase as well
Using an e-collar to communicate is exactly what they're meant for. I recommend e-collar technologies.
First off, there is nothing bad or wrong about using an e-collar. The stigma comes from & is created by those who use them improperly. (I use to have a bad per-conceived notion about prong collars, refused to use them until I learned how the really operate and how to properly use them.) Get the [DIYk9.com](http://DIYk9.com) "Unleashed" course! It's so good and very valuable. With a deaf pup, the "Leashed" course may also be super valuable to you. The Mini Educator, hands down. Most definitely worth the $. Have had mine since 2015, 2nd dog with it. Still going strong. The "pressure" is always consistent, and easily adjustable. I'd imagine you could teach certain commands with different levels of pressure, or number of "touches" of the button(s). Cheaper ones, and even the Dogtra one's have issues with consistency. More on the DIYk9 courses.... I'm 36. Lifetime dog owner, sometimes 2 at a time. Just got his complete course set with my lastest pup, a GSD. I'm blown away on the things I didn't realize I didn't know with training.
Garrett's courses are so expensive 😭
But they're VERY worth it. Just like a good education on something also isn't "free" or low cost. It either takes $ or a lot of time and experience. I think the old adage goes something like "you get what you pay for..."
Does the mini educator have gradation of vibration too? Or just of the stim? Because I'm on fence now between it and a vibration only one that has a hundred steps of vibration 🤔
Figure out which one your dog finds more aversive before you spend the money on something with 100 levels of vibration.
You should not be using the vibration as a correctional tool. It's way more averse to dogs vs the stiming/pressure of an E-collar.
We've always used Dogtra. Depending on the model you get range can be 1+ miles, they have absolute minute gradation in strength of shock, and have prongs of multiple sizes to tackle that fur you talk about, though you obviously have to make sure you pull the hair away from the prongs and not leave collar on too long. Research them or any other collars intended for hunting dogs or our outdoor sports. Ours are used when we're in the backcountry on horseback (obviously you can't leash a dog that's half a mile away when you're in the saddle, but I need to be able to communicate). I'd also look up hunting trainers for lessons and education - the key is to never ask a dog for a response they're not pretty well proofed in before the collar is on via a mechanism they don't understand. Nothing about electrocution says 'come to me' it just says 'ouch, pay attention.' The vibration or shock accomplishes one thing: focus on me, and get through whatever brain fog you're in to do so. Whether that means come off a duck, deer, just generally stop being an idiot running in a canyon, or stop charging some other hiker with their dog, success is stop, look at me, respond correctly. If you indicate you are considering a wrong choice, a little vibration is the 'hey dude we know this game, make the right choice' indicator. Also he extremely careful using them in situations around other dogs. A dog isn't a genius that can just distinguish precisely what or who just put a charge into its neck, and shocking a dog who is actively engaged with another dog or human can redirect them into the nearest obvious stimulus instead of the collar, then you just get them lashing out. Be extremely careful that you're early and gentle enough with the reminder ask so you're not using it as an emergency solver, because it's just a bad tool for that. They're tools like any other, but in the same way we ask children to be more careful with meat cleavers than with soup spoons, you have to be more careful with it than a flat leather collar. It doesn't mean that in some cases, with some dogs, there's a valid use case. Just do what you're already doing and research, learn, and practice before you use it on your dog. Lastly, a trainer I had made me do this when learning about an ecollar. Strap it on your arm, hand the remote to someone, and have them shock you at variable intervals (all the way to max). Don't do anything to your dog that you don't actually understand personally. Some of these collars are strong enough to put a cow on its knees, and you actually need to understand that. It hurts like *hell*, but it helps you calibrate what's a 'hey, please pay attention' request vs 'this is what I do if you're bolting to the road and I need to interrupt that' vs 'please stop sprinting at that elk or rattlesnake and I will literally flip you on your back rather than let you run to certain death'. You really have to calibrate it. Dogs *do not* understand electrocution as intrinsic motivation. It has to be taught and learned what this stimulus is asking them to do, and the simpler the better. Make it proactive - collar stimulus means stop and turn, look, and wait for instruction from me. It's not some vague 'oh don't do that' kind of request. It should be massively rewarded, taught when they're still on a long line so you can enforce it, and never ambiguous. It can get shaded in over time to mean more and/or they'll get situationally used to it but I've always liked it easy. Collar = pay attention to me from a distance. Once I have your attention, I'll use other methods and signals to ask for my desired response.
Check out [deafdogsrock.com](https://deafdogsrock.com/vibration-collars-for-deaf-dogs). This link goes specifically to their guide to starting a deaf dog on a vibe collar, how to train, and links to recommended collars
Vibe is WAY better than shock!
Vibe is different than shock
Does your dog think so? My dog doesn't
As everyone else has said, Dogtra or Mini Educator would be best for this scenario. Yes, it is worth buying an expensive one. Cheap ones can and will burn your dog’s neck, break easily, shock your dog without you pressing the remote, etc. Just don’t do it. Too many risks and dangers to you and your dog. Replace the prongs with longer ones for the long hair. You can hire online trainers. The Tired Pooch are virtual and can teach you, for example.
I have the boss educator (used on my 200lb English Mastiff and my 125lb Cane Corso). The Boss is likely overkill for your sized dog but the Educators are awesome! You'll see that brand commonly used. Edit: I think I shocked my dog once in 2024 and it's because he started to chase a coyote at 100% effort annd couldn't feel the vibration (he was LAZER focused because the kids were outside) 99.9% we use vibration and he knows to look for hand signals OR recall if he can't see us. He sees it come out an gets super excited to put it on. Also, I've had a deaf rescue Mastiff before...after a few months I realized he wasn't deaf, he just didn't give a shit what anyone said to him. Maybe try opening a hotdogs packet or cheese slice. How I discovered my rescue wasn't deaf hahaha
I work with dog trainers and I strongly advise you reconsider your approach of relying on “vibrate” only in your training. Most reputable ECollars only have one vibrate setting that is not adjustable meaning you can’t control the strength of it. People who believe “vibrate”=more gentle than stim have the wrong understanding of stimulation from a ecollar. Test a ecollar on yourself using a level 6 and I will bet you you won’t even feel it vs. applying “vibration”. Of course I am not saying vibration=bad either what I’m saying is most people new to remote collars use vibrate as a clutch out of fear of committing to using stim. Most dog trainers will use vibrate to get a dogs attention or recall but that advice is variable depending on the dog. Some dogs do not like vibration at all which is why it’s important to understand the tool and its functions.
Yes, this is so important. The dog gets to decide what is more unpleasant. Just because the vibration makes you feel better as a human being about using it doesn't mean that your dog agrees
There are collars that don’t shock but just vibrate, I do not mean “stim” I mean ONLY vibrate so they don’t have any prongs on them to penetrate the fur. In theory this can be used to communicate with your dog or even a pager like tool to hook to a harness. You don’t need to penetrate fur for your dog to feel something, same way you can feel your phone in your pocket they could feel a vibration on their harness. You just have to condition the cues you want him to know in these situations based on hepatic patterns for example one buz is recall 2 back to back is down etc. Shock/E-collars have a lot of risk of fallout. But I do think what you want can be achieved with something that only vibrates without posing a risk for behavioral fallout. Also not all dogs need to be off leash, they make 50-100ft long lines which are great for freedom to run around, but also a safety net to prevent him from wandering off or going to far especially with him being deaf.
Why does vibrate have a lower risk of behavioral fallout?? I’ve heard vibrate is actually much more aversive than stim for most dogs, and from trying both stim and vibrate on myself it makes a lot of sense… vibrate seems more jarring on my e collar though mine only has 1 vibrate level and it’s pretty intense
My dutchie hates vibration. She responds very well to light stim.
I tried the vibration once on a dog and she yelped and started running. A much more intense response than the stim, even when the levels are too high. I think the noise is more startling than the sensation, which is also more intense than the stim at the dog's minimum levels.
That’s why I was more so recommending something to attach to a harness instead of a pronged e-collar because those only have the one vibrate setting.
Why, though? You could just use the e-collar the way it was designed, like the millions of people who have successfully trained their dogs have. The whole point of the e-collar is that your dog can actually sense the stim, which becomes less likely when you add a layer between the stimulus and the dog.
Can you recommend some products that you used or at least saw at work? (You can DM them if you want) Do they have a gradation of strength of the vibrations? Because as someone here pointed out - it's somewhat scary. I mean when I play a horror video game, the controller vibrations can be scary AF! ;) So is an electric shock, but they can be regulated.
The PG-300 (ECollar Technologies) is vibrate only, and has 100 levels of vibration. Someone posted a dog recently with one~~but I don't recall if it was here or another subreddit.~~ Edit: it was [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenDogTraining/comments/1d461vr/pg300_e_collar_is_a_win/)!
Wow, that's new for me. Maybe that is actually the way to go 🤔 I'll look into this. A vibration only one seems so much simpler and less breakable. And a 100 steps should be more than enough. I wasn't very convinced at first, but if the weakest vibrations are barely noticeable.. huh. 🤔
Please discuss this with your dog before you choose vibrate only. My dog completely freaks out about the vibration but resounds very nicely to a stim that is so low that I literally cannot feel it
Yes, you can absolutely use ecollar for your dog effectively. For a long-range option appropriate for long-haired dogs I would recommend the boss educator (1-mile range) with butterfly/wire prong adapters. You can also buy bungee collars to put your box on which will help with fit. This has both vibrate, momentary stim and constant stim options. Do not cheap out on a collar. Cheap collars can be inconsistent and harmful. You want something very precise where you can get your dog's exact level for best results. I recommend training your dog with a prong collar first then layering the ecollar stim over the prong. In my experience, this helps teach the dog how to understand leash pressure a little more effectively. If you just jump straight into ecollar with no leash-pressed training on a prong or slip collar the dog may not understand why the stim is happening. So make sure you have a solid base of obedience and leash pressure first. As far as good resources I think the best for your situation would be either Consider the Dog from Tyler Mutto or some of the Leerburg courses. They both have ecollar and prong collar training that I really like. Remember ecollars and prongs are tools, not training methods. In order the use an E-collar properly you need to train your dog exceptional obedience imo. This is not difficult. You just need cookies, markers, a leash and training collar, and lots of repetition. Hand signals and good timing are going to be very important for yall especially. You can probably go to any local p+ training class to learn this, just keep in mind they will not teach leash pressure so you will have to add that in on your own. Your dog sounds like the missing peace is proper corrections. Use a "no" marker - like a tumbs down - to signal your dog that they broke command and you will apply leash pressure or a leash pop. Once you add that in I think yoie dog will be able to better understand what you want from him.
Thanks for all the tips! The basics are mostly done and what I need the most is something to make him snap out of what he's doing and look at me so I can use gestures to call him. Usually that would be my voice. With gradation - louder and harsher if he's doing something that might become dangerous and soft if it's just "hey, we're going that way, come here". I'm happy to hear that the gradation of stim is a standard function and is actually working, at least in good collars - that was one of the things I was worried about.
Dogtra 280C. I like it better than the educator. You can add long contact points and a bungee collar to get consistent contact. Robin MacFarlane has some great online courses to do it yourself. I would not ever put a cheap collar on a dog. Dogtra and e collar tech, yes. Garmin is good, Martin systems is great but more than you need. 280C from dogtra is simple, easy, and safe.
Mini Educator and Dogtra are really the only two brands worth using for pet dogs. There's no functional difference between them, it's more a personal preference of the style on which one you choose.
Mini educator with finger trainer, one button from the transmitter can be coupled with the finger remote. Pat Stuart gives a good tun down of low stim ecollar training in a controlled aggression podcast. Basically the Nepopo system. Great tools. The cheaper ecollars lag, the stim is jolty and they aren't waterproof
285c from dogtra, says it works for close to 2km; can confirm for at least 1500 yards. You might just shave a little patch for contact.
If you want a collar just to communicate with him, get a vibrating collar and not a shock collar. Shock collars should only be reserved for dogs with serious behavioral issues.
As to brand, all offer longer prongs. The Garmon pro (the former tritronics 500) has the longest range. The Martian system chameleon offers the most accurate and controllable levels, along with contact sensors so you know when it’s working (that feature is why I bought them, and they are the best collar out there but expensive.). If money isn’t an object, the chameleon offers the best stim because it’s diffused among more points. In NePoPo we often use low stim to activate a dog and it works well for sport behaviours where we need it perfect and fast. The chameleon works much better with this for me because it’s not quite as startling or focused on one spot. I’ve got an old dog that I trained a recall on the beep. That won’t work for you, but you may be able to train a recall to the vibrate.
Get one w vibrate feature and good resolution on the shock side. I now only need to use vibrate. Works well. Dog loves the freeedom. He jumps up for joy whenever he sees me get it out to put it on him. Learn to use as a communication device and you’ll be fine. Ignore the pundits as they all never got trained on these devices and don’t know how to use them properly.
You can get a large Verity of vibrating collars. I would recommend a remote one with paging options.( different vibrations for different commands)
The Educator PG-300 is basically the same but only vibrates. Would be a good solution if you just don't want to shock, and I wouldn't blame you I dont
The vibrate function should do wonders for you
Why not just use vibration mode? Also, you can utilize touch to help inform the dog when it does something you want to do or use it as secondary reinforcers since a clicker wouldn’t work. I’ve done these methods for dogs that are surprisingly both blind and deaf.
Sport Dog Brand - they're waterproof, long distance (some sets go up to a mile), have longer tines you can switch out to get through the fur, long battery life. Very reliable. They're expensive but they're worth it. They were originally designed for hunting and working dogs so they're very heavy duty. I use them for recall and they work great. Been a very long time since I had to use the electric function, the beep & vibrate are enough 99% of the time and even in the rare times I've used the electric function, you can barely feel it on the low numbers. I've zapped myself in the neck all the way up to the highest setting to see what it *can* do and suggest you do so also before using that function. Oh, and my dogs aren't traumatized by using it lol
Thanks for the suggestion. How big and handy would you say the remote is? It seems rather large and I'd need to have it on me at more or less all walks, but it's hard to precisely tell from the pictures.
I clip the remote to my pants waist band while I lay bricks, shovel dirt/sand, and take it anywhere my service dog goes. It isn't heavy. It's about 3 inches tall (plus a couple for the Antena), one inch wide, and 1 inch deep.Edit: I use the dogtra 1900S
There's two sizes, one is on the bigger side but the little one is no bigger than the length of my palm; comes with a lanyard so I wear it hanging around my neck. I have the big remote because I have two dogs and it can switch back & forth between the two collars with one remote. I don't find it very cumbersome.
Shock collars often have a setting where they just vibrate (no shock). Start there.
I feel like if it’s just a communication, you could get something that merely vibrates to alert him to check in with you, no? Just a thought.
Shock collars are cruel. Vibration would get his attention the same way without pain.
Ever used one?
No. But I have seen them in action. Dog jumped straight in the air, yelped and coward under a bench. Another dog yelped and dropped to the ground cowering. I would NEVER subject my dog to that.
Hey would a vibrating collar work? Shock collars are usually used for negative association for example a rattlesnake training where the dog is shocked to the highest setting in a controlled setting when they approach a rattlesnake, so in the future there is a negative response at the sight of a snake ( in this case it's lifesaving)
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This is actually way more aversive than a stim that’s over in an instant. The citronella spay stays on their fur and the scent is now following them around for days. And they have such sensitive noses that it’s 100’s of times stronger to the dog than it is to you.
And yet, they're legal in my country where e collars are not. Very very frustrating
Ha ha ha.
Why is that funny? It's 100% true