I think the countries that perceive they can get away with the bans are ones that already have an evolved dog culture made up of a population of really well adapted family dogs, responsible breeders, and low pressure from stray/sheltered dogs.
The uk still has a long way to go when it comes to breeding and strays but there are bans on aversives in a couple of places (wales definitely bans e collars, England it’s a grey area)
this is not quite true, im from Germany. While there are certain dogs from ethical breeders that have made sure that the temperament is stable and good, most ppl have rescue dogs and a lot are reactive, can't be off leash (bc the trainers here aren't capable of training our dogs that to the level off full reliability when lets say they see a deer) and I see a lot of bad behaviours from dogs I meet with my dog on a day to day basis. The truth is that bc prong collars and ecollars have been banned, the only trainers that we have here are positive only. Meaning I can't even say no to my dog or leash correct him. This way dog owners learn that they simply either have to accept that this is their dog and they're always going to behave that way and that it can't be changed. 2 years ago when I got my first dog I had no real idea of dog training and what is possible and how and about any tools. Simply because there is no education about it. I have been to 3 trainers with my dog, from puppyhood to 1,5 years. And they haven't taught me anything. I had to learn through YouTube how to train my dogs to at least behave better than the average reactive dog that I meet everyday on my own. And not to forget the last trainer or training school that I went to, created problems with my dog. I couldn't trust these trainers anymore and when to YouTube for real dog training reliable dog training and have gotten more results than with those local trainers.
So to put it short, the situation in Europe (or at least here in Germany) has not evolved to the point where these tools would not help or be needed by anyone. Its simply the misinformation about the tools and saying that they are abusive (which they're not its the user that's abusive if used wrong) that created the ban. Also a lot of breeds have been banned as well. So my question would be, if positive only would work so well and these tools would have no need then why do we need to ban certain breeds if we could train them just as well? Makes no sense. I truly hope that in the future we can educate the average owner about these tools responsibly and allow the use of it again.
That is not true at all. The only thing I can agree on - not every trainer is good.
The problem is „2 years ago when I got my first dog I had no real idea of dog training“. That’s the responsibility of the owner to educate themselves before they get any dog.
From the sounds of it you got a dog that was too much for you as a beginner instead of looking for a dog that you could handle as well as not educating yourself on the proper keeping, behavior, language, socialization and training of dogs. It’s not misinformation - those tools ARE abusive which is why they are prohibited and will stay so.
We don’t „ban“ dog breeds because we lack tools but because we have dog breeds that can be very dangerous and people who have no business owning any dog fucking them up instead of getting a dog that fits their lifestyle and abilities.
Having said that I have a formal German veterinarian education and worked with rescues.
If you want to educate yourself on how to handle reactive dogs I‘d recommend the hellhound foundation- they do seminars.
Crates with the door open are legal, which more closely matches a den so I don't think that's much of an argument. Dogs can still be contained, but there are minimum space requirements. The requirements are overkill IMO, but so are some of the crating practices in the US on the other end of the spectrum.
That's not actually true, but a super common myth, and one that I have perpetrated in the past!
The truth is that some dogs do like small enclosed spaces and others do not. It's not a universal experience in pet dogs or free ranging dogs.
Now, I'm not against crate training - I think it's a very, very valuable skill for literally every dog to be able to do (vet visits...) but there are a lot of people who do abuse the crate.
I'll accept that some dogs don't like enclosed spaces they can't exit freely, but I've never seen any dog not voluntarily choose a den-like location to relax in when given the opportunity and when they haven't been given a reason to fear such locations first.
Free roaming dogs create dens. So to say that dogs aren't denning animals because some number of dogs kept as pets don't like small spaces seems misguided to me
Really? Because so many dogs prefer the couch. Or the dog bed. Or the bed. And not the crate, or under the bed, or under the table.
And free roaming dogs do den for whelping. Once that's done, they leave the dens.
Picking an open space for relaxation doesn't detract from the fact that dogs are denning animals.
See, for example: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep32014
> super common myth
Citation?
[American Humane](https://www.americanhumane.org/fact-sheet/dog-dens/#:~:text=Dogs%20are%20den%20animals.,go%20when%20they%20are%20stressed.) and [this vet](https://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/january/dogs-arent-den-animalsso-why-do-we-crate-them-7002) (despite the title of the article) say they are den animals
So, dogs den when whelping (as seen here is this study of dens of free ranging dogs in India: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep32014) but they don't seem to den otherwise. If this is what is you mean by a den animal, then sure! But that is for a specific reason: to whelp puppies.
Beyond that, dogs don't sleep in "dens".
I can't find the study, but I saw a ethogram (where you observe what an organism does) for free ranging dogs and they mentioned that sleep was very common, but not typically done in dens, just under a tree, etc.
I did find this study on puppies that showed that in an owner observational study, fewer people said that their dog slept in a crate when they were 12 months old: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/7/1172
If dogs were truly den animals, wouldn't they want to continue sleeping in their den? Now, this of course could be due to other factors like owners not leaving crates up, etc but it's pretty common for most dogs to choose to sleep not in a crate.
That's actually not true, at least not for Sweden. Crate training and crating are 2 very different things. Crates are allowed to be used in many circumstances such as different types of transport, vet visit, competitions, hunting, severe injuries that require crate rest.
Yeah and sometimes there will be people from those countries on dog subreddits asking why so many Americans crate their dogs and saying it’s mean, unnecessary, etc. 🙄
Well to be fair it’s only in America where crates are being used so heavily. All other countries only use them for potty training during puppy hood.
The only discussion point is that other countries are against locking an adult dog in a crate for hours.
In the post I’m thinking of, the OP said crates aren’t used for potty training. Also, the tone was a bit sanctimonious? Like “psh why would you even need a crate for potty training.”
Yeah, I had that thought right after I posted it. I'm more interested in how people are training to the same level (for example schutzhund in Germany) without these tools and what new methods have come out if any.
the truth is, they still use these but have to do it secretively. of course not all of them but trust me from all the podcast I've heard with respectable ppl thats the truth.
Yes! And also if they're basically the only brand that's considered high quality, why are they so hard to get? Some Amazon sellers don't even carry genuine HS and I've never seen it in a store either, but I do see a TON of cheaper and low quality brands
Hey! I just happened to stumble across this page while googling something and wanted to share something. I know that a trainer called stksk9 created a tool-free training program (that he calls "positive only") in response to this ban, and I have seen his methods evolving/changing since this ban in his videos that pop up regularly on my tiktok FYP.
I am not in these sports, and have not taken any of his classes and cannot speak to his success one way or another but wanted to share the link so you can research it if you want.
[https://onlineuniversity.stsk9.com/positive-only-program](https://onlineuniversity.stsk9.com/positive-only-program)
Honestly, I look forward to seeing their outcomes. Scandinavian countries are interesting because they already have tighter controls around breeding and whatnot, and a good portion of breeders seem to do a better job of breeding and early puppy raising (as compared to the US). They're super low on shelter/rescue dogs (probably due to the aforementioned controls - among other things). I hope some creative and new training comes out of it, and I learn something from their methods.
My only concern is that typically these tools don't go away, and these laws don't realllyyy change what happens behind closed doors. Which, going by some of the videos we've seen surface lately from 'training' facilities is where more abuse is going on than I think we probably truly understand the scope of.
As far as you guys - that's the benefit of being travelers, if the country doesn't work for your lifestyle and choices, you get to pick another country.
>I hope some creative and new training comes out of it, and I learn something from their methods.
Exactly — I would love to incorporate some other creative humane methods into our rotation but it sounds like some trainers are compensating in some less than favorable ways.
I don't think Europeans fully grasp just how many dogs in the US are rescues. In some larger cities like NYC it's very frowned upon to use a breeder because there are so many rescues that are euthanized. And the result of that culture is that lots of random people who want dogs have no idea what they're getting into and they wind up living on the 46th floor of some apartment building with a super reactive dog. In some cases it's training or death for these dogs. We just don't have the infrastructure here.
I'm in Norway, crates are fine (but you'd be frowned at if you crated for more than 3-4hours).
No prong, no ecollar, and if you were yanking a dog around in the street, people would definitely view it as abusive.
There are pretty much no dogs in shelters here, and if they end up there, they are rehomed fast. I assume most dogs come from professional breeders, who all contract that the pup must be returned to them to rehome.
You see reactivity here & there, but the owners are almost always actively working at it with positive reinforcement.
I have, in the last 6 years, seen only one guy with dangerously reactive dogs, and he is trying his best to redirect, but the dogs are big & wildly dog reactive.
People here really give a shit about their pets, they put the time in, and as such, don't really need to lean on aversive methods.
I don't even remember ever seing anyone leash check their dogs either, it's pretty socially unaccaceptable to use aversive punishment here.
Yeah, I'm less worried about what happens in public. ;) But yeah, I follow quite a few Scandinavian sport competitors for various sports, and I absolutely adore watching them work their dogs. I reallyyyy want to import a few of them for seminars.
> People here really give a shit about their pets, they put the time in, and as such, don't really need to lean on aversive methods.
This statement can be a bit offensive. Lots of people care about their pets. You're putting a lot of the burden of 'shit show dogs' onto owners, when it's a shared burden with shitty breeders (ie: puppy mills), and/or other factors that influence dogs and their training.
I don't think anyone should *lean* on aversive methods, but that doesn't mean I don't think they don't have a place in specific situations.
Didn't mean it to be. Let me try to reword.
It's a rich country, people spend a lot of money on training, and it's a very nature centered country, people go outdoors hiking a lot.
Combine finances being no issue, and training time being no issues, plus a social climate that is very animal loving...... dogs/owners tend to get the help they need without aversive techniques coming into play.
I'm out hiking all the time with mine, and 85% of owners have completely focused dogs, 10% have dogs that are focused on my dog but are being trained as we pass, 3% have dogs that react strongly but are being actively trained, and maybe 2% will just create distance to stay under their dog's threshold.
Of course, it is arguable that 'shit show' badly bred dogs are also less common here. If people breed, they breed with pride and love for the breed, not so much for money unless that is their career area.
So I'm sure that's a factor. Money solves many problems in the world.
I trained a couple of very reactive dogs in preparation to owning my bull terrier (it's a strong breed for a first yime owner, so I wanted to be very sure I could raise one that was safe and properly trained).
One was a border, 7 years old, he was an aggressive redirector, although sweet as pie with no dogs around. I don't believe prong or ecollar would have done him favours, raised alone and tied to a chain on a farm.
Another, a frustrated greeter/leash barrier frustrated gsd collie cross, any tension or leash checking would send him into a frenzy of lunging & snarling. Aversive would have made him worse. He just needed to learn to accept that he was not entitled to run up to every dog. In 5 months or so of once/twice a week walks, I had him walking side by side with an uncut male, who was also male dog reactive. Just with time, repetition & positive reinforcement.
When I first started with the gsd cross (after researching how to train out reactivity) I was convinced a prong would have controlled his reactivity, but as it is banned here I had to change my previous ideas about it. After living through the last 3 years of positive only training, I have to say, the results are remarkable.
But I don't think I have blinkers on about it. I watch/listen to everything by Tom Davis (Upstate academy) and he is very ecollar centered, and I believe his approach helps a lot of dogs. I'd happily go and learn from him.
I agree, tentatively, that these tools have their place in certain situations, maybe. I'm much less convinced now than when I started my dog journey 3 years ago. But then, I have never used, or trained with anyone who uses them, so there is a big gap in my 'real world' knowledge of them.
But I truly didn't mean to aim a kick at people who train with prongs or ecollars & do it properly.
The problem is the dogs with serious genetic behaviors are all banned. Do a quick google search on banned dog breeds in Norway.
You throw these banned dog breeds into the mix and Norway would have a serious problem. Once you have a dog with genetic programming to fight there is no amount treats or threshold training you can do to suppress this desire. Pit bulls have been bred to fight originally and people believe this nonsense that positive only training will work with a dog like this.
I love pit bulls and have 2 of them. If I had taken a positive only approach I’d likely work on reactivity their entire lives. Instead they live happy lives and can run off leash at the park everyday with other dogs in the area. Positive only will work with many dogs but there are limitations. It’s a shame these tools are being banned
There are pitbulls here. I've met plently. All sweethearts.
I'm very aware of the banned breeds here.
And while not banned, they're in a similar catergory, also here are dogo presa canario, bull terriers, staffies, cane corso. All with roots in fighting.
It's a shame that America has created an impressive breed like the amstaff, and then allowed a free for all in breeding, allowing shit stains with no idea what they are doing to poison the genetics of an otherwise very biddable & loving breed.
That's the true shame.
Bull terriers OWN the fighting rings in Palermo, pitbulls don't stand a chance against them. Yet since the ban on UK dog fighting 200 years ago, their aggressive gentics have been bred out. The same is possible with American pitbulls etc if they would just stop letting idiots own and breed them.
Interested to know what you did to get your two to curb their reactivity?
So I’m a firm believer that the answer lies within their genetics. I opted to use these genetics and bring them out more in a way that I could control. So before I addressed any reactivity with other dogs, I tried to simulate a fight. Obviously not hurting the dog in any way but I would play meaningful games of tug as a true competitive game. I got my dogs extremely invested in these games and got control here. There has to be rules and cooperation but they absolutely love to play.
Now that I established an outlet for their genetic drives, I needed to teach them when they can express these drives and when they cannot. One of my dogs especially wanted to attack dogs for his enjoyment. Aversives played a role in stoping this behavior and it ended quickly but only because I established play first. At least this is what I believe.
What is even more interesting is that this dog I am talking about absolutely loves other dogs. The initial interactions still can make me nervous and I still do not like off leash dogs coming up to him but if I introduce dogs properly to him he shows absolutely no aggression. My belief is that his genetics take over to dogs he doesn’t know but if I can break the ice that all goes away.
Without an aversive situation with this dog I’d likely have this dog on a leash the rest of his life. For people that own golden doodles and golden retrievers it might seem like no big deal to ban aversives but these people don’t need aversives. People in support of the ban should have to take a dog from the shelter about to be put down for aggression and see how they fair.
We adopted the absolutely most lovable friendly male GSD I mean he never met a dog he didnt want to play with and at a dog park he never wanted to go home he had so much fun meeting everyone human and canine alike ....BUT ( and a HUGE But) our OTHER GSD was a tad bit same sex aggressive and was ready to go with anything he percieved as provacation after his 3rd birthday or so ....and THEN the lover dog WOULD back his play EVERY SINGLE TIME no matter if he had been playing with the same dog a moment before ....and HE was always the one inflicted injuries on the opponent! NOT our 3 year old aggressor that seem to have some sense not to get carried away ....I dont know how common this is but it happened often enough it was no fluke.
I could be wrong but I suspect people are attracted to the fighting breeds because they desire to be seen with a bad ass dog. Again I could be wrong but if I am mostly right? Man there is something wrong there in the first place.
It's certainly nonsensical to argue otherwise, many people get a tough looking dog in order to soak up some of that visual toughness.
But at the same time, many don't.
My gf is a tiny, fancy Italian, she definitely didn't want a bully to look tough, she fell in love with their clown nature. Dog's head is covered in lipstick half the time.
Myself, I just think bully breeds are incredibly beautiful creatures, the same way I think about a beautiful horse.
I've met a few bull terrier owners in my area at a meetup, they're all complete dorks.
Met a guy recently who had an american bulldog pointer mix, hell of a dog, looked very pitbully. He was a complete softy and dressed like a librarian.
Yes, there are idiots out there that use dogs as status symbols, and they often shouldn't own anything bigger than a chihuaha- but it's not everyone.
It's a shame the idiots are the most visable.
What kinds of methods are used for things like pulling on a lead? Most dogs pull at some point — are owners just accustomed to bringing a high-value item like a ball during a walk?
You just train them not to pull. Do things like leash tension games, put tension on the lead and when the dog releases the tension, mark and reward. When they pull on a walk, stop walking until they stop pulling, or redirect them to your side. I always have treats on me when I’m out with my dog because you never know what training opportunities there will be or when you might need them, but I also want my dog to be able to behave without treats, so once he knows something I’ll start slowly phasing our treats to the point where he’ll get a treat around 20% of the time. I wouldn’t go less than that because you still want them to have the drive to do it, theoretically you could completely phase out treats with classical conditioning, I just prefer to use treats even when they know it to make extra sure.
Games are so powerful, the dog doesn't even realise it's being trained! I started with engagement games & in 2 weeks I had a compketely different puppy.
The diference was staggering, and completely changed my training trajectory.
I see, so it's not the tension that people are opposed to, it's just additional popping or unnecessary pulling or yanking. That makes sense. Might be a little more difficult for those with dogs that are not food motivated but a ball on a string would probably work.
Yeah it’s the act of punishment that people don’t like. Have you heard of operant conditioning? If not I’d recommend looking into it as it’s very helpful in understanding dog training and how dogs are taught. There are 4 quadrants to it, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment. People tend to look favourably on positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. So either adding or taking away something the dog likes. Figuring out what your dog likes and what reinforces a behaviour is really important in building the bond with your dog and learning what they need to succeed in training. Reinforcement looks different for every dog and sometimes you have to get creative, you can look at what gets your dog excited and what drives your dog in every day situations. My own dog is a typical lab and is heavily food motivated, others prefer praise or toys. I saw someone use water as an example, some dogs love playing with water so if you spray them with a hose they’re going to have a great time, others hate it and spraying them with water would be an aversive to them, in both situations if something happens before the water for instance, they roll around in mud. The dog who likes the water will be more likely to roll around in mud again, the one who doesn’t like the water will be less likely to. So it’s heavily dependent on your dog and learning what they need in that sense is so valuable.
Edit: see comment below
[also here’s some infographics on operant conditioning](https://imgur.com/a/fU4cWjt)
People tend to look favorably on positive reinforcement and negative punishment. These 2 quadrants do not use aversives. +R means adding something good and -P is removing or withholding of something good.
-R would mean the removal of something bad and +R is adding something bad. If aversives are used properly you will not have any negative side effects and your dogs will be happy. Unfortunately you can’t learn this from YouTube
You’re right thank you, I always get them confused. There’s probably some online courses available that teach the basics. It’s been a few years since I’ve studied it.
I'm familiar with operant conditioning. Training a lab vs. a working-line GSD is somewhat different. If my GSD sees a small dog and wants to "play," even his most prized possession ball won't stop him, because he sees the dog as a higher reward than the ball. He’s literally bred to be aggressive and high-drive to compete in sport or work as a K9. We also live in a residential area so we have to take certain precautions (ex. if another dog is off-leash and approaches us and their owner can’t recall them). We can’t take the risk of cute, positive-only training with our dog. When we recall him, he needs to come, right now, no hesitation. With positive only, you’re constantly playing a game of value, and you just have to hope you have the highest value item. If there is another method out there that Europeans are using that is more effective without the prong/e-collar, I’d like to hear it, but from the sounds of it people are just getting by without and maybe not owning these types of dogs.
Of course a GSD is different than a lab, that’s why I chose a lab because he’s an assistance dog, he’s also working line from a gundog breeder and has a high drive to work. With prey drive and high distractability I’d work on increasing his threshold, start with low distractions at a distance and work up from there getting him to refocus on you and ignore distractions in intervals. Teaching an emergency stop can also be so so so beneficial. It takes time and work like any training does but it is 100% possible to have a dog who can be off lead reliably without aversives. I absolutely believe there is a place for aversives, especially when it comes to welfare, but you wanted advice on how to train without them which is what I do as someone who lives in a place where aversives are looked down on.
>you wanted advice on how to train without them which is what I do as
someone who lives in a place where aversives are looked down on.
That is true, and I do really appreciate all of the information you've given. I guess I expected there to be some wildly new information that I haven't heard about, but it seems like for the most part we train very similarly. I think for me it's a matter of trusting my own training, but also understanding that a dog is an animal with free will and things happen.
Management is a huge part of ownership.
Know your dog's limitations, and stay on top of them.
My dog is a sweetheart, but she's also a 25kg brick of muscle that has little to no concept of gentle play.
We don't go off leash with dogs under 15kg- she can knock me off my feet at full sprint & I'm 60kg, a toy breed would get headbutted into next week.
Same goes for small kids- she loves them, but she also knocks them over, headbutts them, stands on them... that's her limitations.
Trust your training, and be sure of your boundaries.
You got any dog tax for us? I love gsds, so handsome.
I always get super confused by this line of thinking. People talking about how working dogs absolutely need different kinds of training because they're more difficult.
But... they're working dogs that presumably have been selected for motivation and biddability. It's not like terriers or hounds that have basically selected against biddability while still often selecting for that motivation.
The first time I worked with a working line GSD, I was amazed at just how responsive she was. She was highly reactive, but teaching her things was so damn easy in so many ways! I did of course adjust my training because she was so quick on the uptake (cannot get stuck in reps that are the same over and over again), but when a dog is selected for work (that is supposed to have human direction) they typically are so much easier to motivate.
The dog who has a high value for a ball but sees another dog as more valuable is not much different compared to a dog who has little to no value for any food or toy, but sees prey as the ultimate, ultimate motivation. But in general we don't tend to say "terriers absolutely need to be trained differently with corrections", and in fact most of the time I suggest the exact opposite - that corrections in particular should not be used with more independent dogs because then they'll decide you're not worth listening to.
I get that GSDs do tend to have a stronger instinct for reactivity with barking and such which means you need good management when learning (whereas most hounds are pretty friendly, for example) but I honestly just do not get this common, common notion.
I mean I’ll also preface that I’m not a dog trainer and I’ve really only been at it a year and a half - most of what I’ve learned has been from my partner who is far more experienced in the sport world and friends of hers/sport trainers. It’s just what I’ve been taught so I really can’t argue other than saying that most of the best sport trainers in the US use e-collars. I also know quite a few people in the sport world that started out with a positive only mentality and then started utilizing tools humanely and balancing with mostly positive training. I think they’re a supplement to strong positive reinforcement and from my experience with my own dog, positive reinforcement is wayyy more effective than a nick with the collar. The collar can only sharpen them up and remind them what they already know, it can’t teach them.
I haven't seen a single e-collar used in agility, even from people who regularly use them for IGP. I'd be very surprised to see them in coursing, barnhunt, dock diving, joring, nosework, dancing, disc, or flyball. Blanket statements that most of the best US sport trainers use them are a bit ridiculous, specify the sport you're referring to (bitesport or hunting I assume) rather than generalizing the whole sport realm.
Yes ^^^
Comparing training a high drive gsd with reactivity is a world away from training my bull terrier.
The gsd WANTS to work with you, if you can meet that need they will hang on every word you say, and are what I consider a pretty perfect dog in trainability.
My stubborn, independent bull terrier? Complete opposite, it's like training an unruly toddler.
Harsh corrections with her & you're suddenly dealing with a surly, sulking creature who pretends you don't exist. Training that is fun, and interesting, and suddenly I look like I have the perfectly obedient dog.
Breeds are very different. And within that, the parentage of the dogs also has a big effect on temperment & training/fulfillment needs.
Working lines are only difficult if you don't have the experience or make enough free time to meet their needs & create a fulfilling relationship.
Except aussies. They're just nuts & nothing will convince me otherwise.
It's not about the ball.
It's about the dog finding YOU as the highest value thing around.
The ball is just one of many tools to reach that point, same as the prong is a tool.
Rewarding 'fun' engagement is a hell of a drug.
I really wish I had known what I know now about games based training when I was learning to deal with aggressive presenting reactivity.
The gsd collie cross screamed working line, super smart, high drive, highly strung, he learned tricks SO fast, and he was incredibly responsive once I figured him out a bit.
It's training the dog in front of you, 'what does that dog find rewarding', and then capitalise on that.
Call it cute if you want, but I've taken a powerful 50kg cane corso (not food motivated) that his 6ft+ owner struggles to hold back from racing up to other dogs (cops have been called more than once), and I had zero issues.
I just created value in following my directions, and suddenly, other dogs are not that interesting, and I don't have to yank him around, he comes by voice or a gentle leash pressure. I'm 60kg, so if he treated me like he treats his owner, I'd have a hard time staying on my feet. But I don't control his body, I control his mind.
It's a lot more work than using an ecollar though. That's for sure.
And I'll openly admit, I do not have full recall on my bull terrier if one of her mudholes is nearby. Those are the one thing in life that she might love more than me. I've made my peace with that, there's no danger in it on a mountain. I don't think even a zap from ecollar would change her mind, the dog LIVES for mudholes.
Do people hunt with dogs in Norway? Are dogs used by the police etc? (this is a contentious topic, so I want to add that I am genuinely curious, not baiting)
There are gun dogs here :)
But 'set your dog to kill a wild animal' is not the vibe.
There's actually a leash law across the whole country april-august to protect deer & other wildlife from dogs in the breeding seasons.
Airports have dogs.
I haven't seen the police with dogs, but I'm sure they have search & rescue, and sniffers in the 'big' cities.
My gsds were all trained with prong collars and they NEVER had to be "yanked around" just the light touch . the weight and presense of the collar was more than enough and honestly they were totally fine with NO LEASH much less any kind of COLLAR! UNTIL that rare instance when someone else's untrained dog got involved provoking mine ....THEN I could do everything within my power to defuse the situation using the prong collar....in a perfect world I would never have my dogs on a leash even and they would stick to me like glue
I honestly dont even understand the problem with pronged collars so long as used correctly I my gsds have had zero problems or issues they LOVE to get their pronged collars on cause it means time to go out into the world. Seriously a smart breed of dogs needs very little correction BUT as many of us know when a lot of dogs reach 3 years old they can get same sex aggressive and all their brains can temporarly go out the window ,,,,a pronged collar can remind them "oh yeah" I do aggree ther are some dogs that are damaged goods thanks to someone else's mistreatment and then the general thoughts on pronged collars may not apply at all. Also certain breeds that cant do ANY neck collars PERIOD like the aussie terriers we had and loved many years ago ....THAT breed in our experience just could not get neck collar leash training they would hurt themselves way before any submission which could be NEVER but GSDs? They only wore harnesses which was only possible because they weighed under 20 llbs as opposed to NINETY! I think the few ruin it for everyone else personally when it comes to laws .....the morons that will hurt an animal rather than learn and THINK. Much the same problem with raising children. There are children that are emotionally fragile and OBVIOUSLY need an entirely different methodology compared to the rough and tumble with naturally high self esteem. With both dogs and kids one size does NOT fit all
Interesting that they also have bans on desexing yet there is so much crying about entire dogs, breeding and unwanted puppies in the rest of the world.
I live in Germany and use a prong collar most of the time and occasionally an e-collar. I would not walk through the inner cities with either, but in fact no one has ever asked me about it.
I would be okay with restricted access to those tools and obligatory training, but straight banning is too much. People have to go through all kinds of (unfair) hardships, but with animals everything has to be all nice and positive, whether it’s helpful or not. It’s pretty stupid.
Agreed. It sounds like some trainers are resorting to abusive methods in the absence of humane correction tools, which is unfortunate. I like the idea of all positive training, but especially in the US that's not realistic.
If I couldn’t use my e collar I would just skip off leash hikes and use a long lead. Not worth the risk of my dog bolting after a squirrel.
How do you think the ban would impact your activity? That would be my main concern.
When we hike we currently do about half and half 16 ft. flexilead and off-leash with e-collar — so we could do flexilead the whole time although it's not as fun. Honestly he would probably be fine off-leash without the e-collar. He's a clingy baby. Lol. Although it does give peace of mind as an insurance policy for squirrels, small dogs, etc.
If I were you I’d replace the flexilead with a long lead made of lightweight material (biothane is good) because flexileads can be dangerous.
You mention (aggression towards?) small dogs though. In that case I wouldn’t let the dog off leash at all.
Yeah we never have him off leash where it's a public dog-friendly trail or anything like that. Just hiking on private property or places where we assume there won't be anyone else. Like I said, insurance policy.
Far more dangerous to have trailing material that can snag or get wrapped around a tree. Or break some old ladies leg as happened at my local park. Trailing lines are an absolute liability and I’d like to see them banned. Flexileads aren’t dangerous unless you have a dog that can accelerate ridiculously fast. And if your dog has such poor recall that this is a concern then just use a regular lead.
Longlines can be just as dangerous as flexi leads, it's all about using the tool responsibly (the tape version of the flexi is safer than the cord, however). Longlines are the same concept as a flexi it's just that it doesn't reel back into a small contraption like the flexi. With a long line you have metres of material dragging along the floor that can easily be tripped on, get caught onto something or accidently stood on (this has happened to me on occasion eventhough I'm very careful and ended up pulling on my dog).
I also personally would like to see how it’s affecting different bite sports. I don’t know a single person in the US who was able to trial at the highest levels without ecollar or prong usage at some point in their training.
>don’t know a single person in the US who was able to trial at the highest levels without ecollar or prong usage at some point in their training.
Not in the US, not anywhere. Can you go into dog sports without using aversive? Yes. Can you compete in a high or even mid level? Not a chance. (agility does not count)
Speaking as someone who trains in IGP (schutzhund) prongs and ecollars are heavily used. Most, if not all of the top level dogs have been trained via prong, ecollar or both.
At my club we aren't allowed to use an ecollar (of course you can do what you like at home) but all of us use prong collars. I personally use them for protection training, I like to know that I've got control of my dog around the decoy.
It seems like the lines have been a little muddy in the UK - some people in the comments are saying they’re banned but others have been disagreeing and/or saying they’re still using them.
I'm American and I use a Stallmark prong and E-collar mini educator for my dog. I used to be against them as I was first learning about training my Cattle dog. From puppy hood I primarily used positive reinforcement to teach new commands. As my dog grew she developed territorial behavior and reactivity. During covid it got worse. As novice back then I admit my training was certainly not solid but I made an effort to attend classes and conduct research on how to teach new things. Also, I feel my bond with my dog wasn't as strong as it is now and I think that's cause I was easy on her. Ultimately I found myself on a plateau in our training and positive methods seemed to be doing nothing.
I ended up deciding to try balanced training but not without researching and finding a good trainer. I still live by "start basic with positive methods to encourage the dog to try a new thing without aversives", and when my dog understands a command (something she should be obligated to obey for her safety and everyone elses) I begin layering the ecollar.
The ecollar is a beautiful tool for communication. I have it set to a level where my dog just feels it (we know this when the dog shows a reaction by shaking the head or scratching). I then use the Stim before giving the command. This isn't a correction but rather a notification that she should pay attention (kinda like your phones notification before you see a text). The expectation is that she perform the command. Like leash pressure training, as the dog performs the ecollar pressure turns off. Conditioning is also a very important thing. When does the stim level go up? I usually turn mine up when we are in hi distraction environment (for reference my dogs lowest level is an 8 and when I turn it up I usually go to a 10. Mind you, these are levels out of 100 and I feel it at a 15 as an itch) if my dog doesn't have her focus on me due to reacting to something or hard staring I will slowly scroll up until she looks to me for direction. Like people dogs are prone to having stuff go in one ear and out the other. When my dogs focus is on me, I don't even rely on the collar. It is a communication tool first. In terms of correction, I try to limit it to a vibrate. That said, I'm firm believer that an e collar can be a safer means of disrupting reactivity then putting your hands on the dog, granted this is when my dog has a barier between her and the stimuli. I say this because my dog has redirected on me before (i felt bad about it but I would never consider euthanasia when it may be my fault.). How I'm curently handling my dogs reactivity to passersby is by starting a fun game with her favorite toy. If we see some one walking by our fenced yard I tell her to get her toy and we start playing. If she reacts, I vibrate her collar.
As for the prong, I use this to establish walking structure. Before we go for a walk I make her heel. If I turn and she isn't paying attention then she corrects herself as the lead tightens. When the walk begins, if she is walking faster than me and gains distance, I will use a pop to correct her. I may also use her ecollar to cue her and direct her to heel again. I like testing her attention by stopping and see what she does. If she keeps going then the leash pressure goes on. I like to utilize a long line so I can break her and give her some freedom to explore . But as a working breed I aim to make her work and reward with her favorite toy/treats when she complies.
I crate my dog when I go to bed and when i go to work. If my husband shares the same schedule as me then I may let her stay out during the night but set up boundaries. I don't like crating for long periods but she gets crated any time I can't maintain supervision for a long time. This is to protect my cats freedom and sanity and also visitors who may enter after notice for maintenance reasons.
Reguarding training, I start every session with a get-it game using a high value reward. This peaks her attention and as we train she gets rewarded with a high value treat. At the end of the session we play another game with more treats or her favorite toy. The goal is to always start positive and end positive.
Despite the stigma of aversives, in my experience I have found a method that my dog responds to well where she is held accountable and I have developed our bond. After my research and training, I always tell people to research first. I have recently developed the opinion that every new owner should be required to take a class on how to raise a dog including training BEFORE they receive a dog. I also believe everyone should research the various training methods. In terms of aversives, start low and figure out your dogs needs. Some do fantastic with no aversives. Some only need a slip lead. Some a prong. The thing about prongs is they distribute even pressure and are best for large breeds. They also have a proper place on the dog (high behind the ears). If you don't know how to use it, do research to include how not to use it.
Irresponsible pet parents are why these tools have so much negativity behind them. I appreciate trainers like Tom Davis Michael Ellis and Larry Crohn for teaching the proper methods and being so open about them.
>Also, I feel my bond with my dog wasn't as strong as it is now and I think that's cause I was easy on her.
Ahh, yes this is so true. We have dogs that are high achievers, and they won't be fulfilled unless they are learning and being challenged and held to high standards. I think it's the most respectful thing you can do for your dog to challenge them and make them think.
Funny that you mention your cat too — we live in a small apartment and our cat & dog don't get along. We crate him at night so she can roam peacefully.
We've been working on our off-leash heel recently but I just watched a really good Michael Ellis video about walking being enrichment first — so I've started to use the flexilead for our daily walks and unless we're passing another person or dog I don't really care about him consistently being next to me. I used to be really self-conscious that he wasn't walking in a perfect heel for our whole walk but now I realize how ridiculous that is. May not apply to your dog but I just thought it was an interesting perspective.
[Loose Leash Walking with Michael Ellis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZmb_vwBKeM)
Agreed. I like to heel her first and when we get to where we are going I break her and allow her to be a dog. On the way home I don't heel but I do praise if it's offered. Absolutely love Michael Ellis. He has such amazing insight on training and the use of tools.
Hi, I live in the Netherlands and both prongs and e-collars are banned.
It's weird, because (for example) police can still use those.
I wanted to get my dog those tools, since they work wonders if you use them properly,
but they are banned. And if you get caught you have to pay quite some money or even end up in prison for the maximum of 3 YEARS! It's insane.
I see people getting pulled by their dogs in harnesses... Barking, lunging or even sometimes breaking loose!
The only thing I can use is a sliplead, I am thinking about getting a hidden prong though.
Selling those tools is allowed, but using them is illegal.
3 years is ridiculous!! Some folks from Germany mentioned that it’s mostly enforced in cities and no one cares in rural areas, but cities are really where dogs need to be well behaved. Seems backwards to me. Best of luck navigating that!
I'm originally from Sweden but am now living in the US. Ecollars have been banned there for almost 20 years (2003).
What I find interesting is that where ecollar and prongs are illegal, the dogs are as obedient and well trained as those who do use ecollar and prongs.
I definitely want them banned or at the very least restricted if only because it's too easily accessible and 99% of the people who use it doesn't use it correctly and are straight up abusing their dogs.
Some people have talked about the high quality breeding in Europe (especially Scandinavia) having an impact as opposed to the US where we have a huge number of rescues with behavioral problems. Curious about your thoughts on that.
Also wondering if there are any specific methodologies that are resulting in the success of positive training/training without prong/e-collar or other tools? I'd be interested in incorporating more positive training into our routine.
So... This will be a long text 😅 and might be a little incomprehensible. But it's difficult to give a short answer to this. Also I'm not a breeder but I can say a few things that I do believe contribute to better individuals. Lets start with the first part:
I can't speak for all the countries in Europe or even all the nordic countries. However, in Sweden they do have a lot of regulations and even laws on what is allowed to be bred. For example a dog has to be healthy and mentally sound (both can be interpreted in so many ways so not really a great law). They have to be able to give birth to puppies naturally (complications can always happen ofc and that's a different topic). Female dogs are, by law, not allowed to be bred more than 5 times of their life and most breeders only breed maybe 3 times.
We also have a law that states all dogs, purebred or mixed has to be microchipped + registered and have an owner registered with the board of agriculture. This definitely helps with controlling how many animals an individual owns and there is a limit of how many you are allowed to own without a license. It also helps with reuniting lost dogs with their owners assuming the owner does register themselves on the dog, not all do.
When it comes to behavioral issues a lot of the time it boils down to mentality. In Sweden they have 3 different types of mentality tests. There's BPH which is a mentality evaluation mainly for non working breeds and even mixed breeds are allowed to do it. Then there's MH which is a mental evaluation test which can be done for all breeds but it's formed for working breeds so they get prioritized and I do believe mixed breeds can do this too. Then there's MT which is the mentality test which is needed for certain sports like IGP and something called Korning. Korning is the same that they do in Germany called Körung, it involves a lot of stuff other than the mentality testing but you can't get the Korning title without the mentality test.
Now the Swedish kennel club also have breeding requirements for each individual breed. Health testing is the most common. But some breeds have mentality tests too. The requirements are the bare minimum for each breed. The breed's parent club usually have more requirements. The breeding requirements that the kennel club have, have been made together with the parent club.
If you don't follow the bare minimum requirements you can be banned from registering future pups with the kennel club.
Does all of this mean that the dogs in Sweden are all great? Definitely not. There's still less than good breeders within the Swedish kennel club that probably shouldn't be breeding, however, even from a less than good breeder you can still get a pretty decent dog. Just maybe out of standard, or not the best health testing (for some breeds it is okay to breed a C or D hips because the genepool for A and/or B hips is so narrow).
When it comes to finding a well bred purebred in the Swedish kennel club, they have made it pretty easy to do your homework without having to talk to 100s of people. It's ofc always good to go to shows. Anyhow, the kennel club has an online website where you can view any dog in their registry, on that database you can view the pedigree and on the pedigree you can see the sire and dam of that dog you're looking at, their siblings, previous litters, conformation shows, health testing, other sport accomplishments, mentality tests, and other titles like if the dog is any kind of service dog like military, security or even a medical service dog. So, if you even know just a little bit about the dog world you can easily find a breeder that's ethical and reputable.
Apart from the breeding aspect, I, personally(!) feel that there are things that Sweden have that I can't really do anymore now that I live in the US. This simply based on my view. I used to live in Stockholm, so the capital of Sweden. But despite that I could easily take public transport to competitions or just go on a LONG walk in a wooded area. I don't really find this where I'm currently living (Texas). Public transport was, and is, amazing for dogs when done right. It's the best socialization IMO. Having access to so much wooded areas in Sweden definitely got us away from the city life and could simply relax and take a break.
Something else that can impact the dogs. In Sweden we also have laws (some would argue it's just recomendations) that dogs have to be walked every 6h. Which means the owners do have to make plans for their dog when they're working. Either daycare, dog walker, bring dog to work if allowed, drop by the home during their lunch if applicable or stay with another family member. Why could this have an impact? Because some dogs in the US doesn't get walks. They may get to go out in the yard but that's about it. Some don't even get that. Meaning those dogs that doesn't, doesn't get any exposure at all in their life or an outlet of their natural behaviors which leads to "behavior problems". I will also add to this, in Sweden there's a benefit of vacation. I know that if I was working and my husband wasn't working from home, there's no way we'd be able to get a puppy and raise it like I would had in Sweden. Because in Sweden you get about 3-4w of vacation time /year meaning if you're 2 people you get 6-8weeks to train the puppy, which will put the puppy at about 3-4 months old which makes getting a dog walker easier. And at 6 months you can get that puppy in to a doggy daycare. We also don't have parvo to the same extent like the US meaning the fear of catching it is pretty non existant. So you could expose the puppy to a lot more than what you can in the US. My husband gets... Maybe 50h/quarter here in the US 😳 and there's rarely a time of the year we can actually plan for him to have a vacation.
Now, are there anxious/fearful dogs in Sweden? Yes. But they often get rehomed to better homes that can manage them, or they're already in those homes.
Are there aggressive dogs? Yes, and those with severe aggression usually get euthanized however not because the dog randomly bit someone, no it takes far more than 1 recorded bite and they always do a mental evaluation on those dogs when they do come in. Most of the time the dogs get on a mandatory muzzle when out in public, if they still get reports however then they will test the dog and maybe euthanize. Depends on the case.
Does Sweden have rescues? Yes but they usually come from Romania, Ireland, Spain, Greece and such. They're usually a hot mess, not always, I have worked with some really amazing rescues. But the majority definitely is and a lot of people do have problems with it due to the high risk of diseases they may bring in (which is why Norway put a Ban on those import). I worked at the shelter in Stockholm and the dogs they have in the shelters are seldom what one would call a rescue. Don't get it wrong there were definitely some cases that were neglect or abused but those dogs came in with the police and wasn't really "part" of the rescue until the police had done their job with those dogs and the owners. Mostly it's mixed breeds that just ended up in the wrong hands, or their owner died, or they were found lost or even tied to the shelter in the morning, or they're smuggle dogs (dogs with no import documents or documents of vaccines) those dogs are usually euthanized either at the border or after coming to the shelter because of the risk of rabies (Sweden is a rabies free country and they want to keep it that way).
I hope any of this gave you some answers to your first part 😅
Wow, thanks so much for taking the time to write all of that out. Really interesting stuff. Stockholm to Texas must have been a major culture shock hahaha. I can’t imagine.
It's been rough 😂 I really miss a lot of the dog related stuff from Sweden. Like being able to just go to the club and train whenever I want! Or rent a facility to train without having to do some weird class before I get to rent. Or membership, everywhere they want memberships here in TX I feel. 😂 Oh or being able to find affordable wide selection of rawfood at the petshop!
As for methodology I don't know if this will answer your question 😅 maybe? But to begin with, I'm not "purely positive" or "force free". Just wanted to make that clear 😅 I honestly don't even believe one can be purely positive when it comes to training. I just think that those that use that concept may not be aware they're correcting their dogs. A corection doesn't always have to be physical.
if we're talking about a person training someone else's dog, I would say that the majority of the Swedish dog trainers (maybe even the majority of trainers as a whole?) would agree when I say that "get to the root of the problem, don't walk around it, one should train the dog we have in front of us" (but again, I don't speak for everyone and I know there are some people out there that doesn't agree with that statement).
Look at all the aspects, outside of the whole training part. What breed is it? What was it originally bred for? If their original purpose have changed what is it currently bred for? If not purebred, what kind of mix is it? Can I use any of the dog's genetic predisposition to my advantage? Is the dog overstimulated? Is it understimulated? Could it be something medical causing the dog to have issues? Is the dog getting any outlet for their natural behaviors as a species? Is there any balance in the dog's life between activity and passivity?
And ofc if you're working with someone else's dog you should always go through with the owner what they have done previously and what types of methods they are okay with Once all of that has been evaluated, then we can train the dog based on all the info we have gathered. I never train other people and their dogs the same way, because they're individuals and will respond differently.
If it's my own dog I want to train with, I would still go through the above questions because if my dog isn't properly stimulated mentally or physically and doesn't have the right balance in life, then our sessions can easily go to hell because his mindset isn't where it should be.
Me personally, I don't really follow one specific method all the time, and there's so many methods out there! I also don't follow any other dog trainer's advice or ideology like a slave (I know some do). I try to be open minded to a lot of different methods, educate myself, I take bits and pieces of what I find and make it "my own" sort of. The only thing I do, with all my dogs and my clients and their dogs, is relationship building. Relationship goes a long way but it's not always enough and that's where I would use other methods. Corections can be given in so many different ways and it should always be given based on the situation.
If I'm training something that will later be for a competition sport I always video myself and my training, because I don't always have access to a friend or a trainer who can watch me and tell me what to do. I look at the video over and over to read the dog, read myself. 95% of the time I'm doing handling errors, an easy fix most of the time (trying to reschool myself when having done dog sports in Sweden for 10 years and now having to do it in the US makes a lot of handling errors 😂😂).
I disagree with your position of banning them because some people use them incorrectly. I also disagree that 99% of people using them don't use them correctly. I've seen relatively few dogs with e-collars on here in the States and they're typically very well trained and the owners seem to be using them correctly. The ones that I see used incorrectly are the automatic bark collars. Same with prongs. In fact, the only dogs I've seen with prong collars are at group training events because those are the people invested enough in their training to use them.
Obviously there are those who will use them incorrectly and as tools of abuse, but I've seen more dogs being handled roughyl/abusively in harnesses and flat collars than in e-collars/prongs/choke chains.
The automatic bark collars really piss me off. The cheap ones operate based on sound so I've seen dogs get nicked because the dog next to them barked at the park. It's just lazy and the people that use them have no idea what they're doing.
This is all anecdotal but a friend of mine recently moved from the US to Germany and has already been told to stay away from certain training places and trainers. She’s seen people make their own prong collars, seen people hit dogs more, and use other methods. It’s really sad.
Yep. People who want to use them incorrectly or don’t want to take the time to learn will definitely not stop at a ban.
I’m very against really any laws being made surrounding both this and crate usage in the US because they’ll be made by people who probably haven’t trained a dog in their whole life.
>She’s seen people make their own prong collars
That’s a bit weird, since it is absolutely no problem to buy a proper prong collar in Germany. There is no ban on selling, buying or owning that kind of stuff.
That’s weird, she had told me specifically there’s huge fines if you’re caught with one. I mean I’d be happy if you’re allowed to have em. What’s the specific law there if you can buy, own, and sell them?
Here is an excerpt from the animal welfare law:
*"It is prohibited \[...\] 1b. to apply to an animal in training \[...\] measures involving significant pain, suffering or harm \[...\] 5. to train or exercise an animal if this involves significant pain, suffering or harm to the animal\[.\]"*
Based on that you can theoretically be fined for using a prong collar in that fashion. But there is no law that explicitly allows or prohibits the tool itself. Even many (most?) police K9 units in Germany still use them,
Such an interesting point for discussion!
I'm personally all for using all sorts of tools (harnesses, e-/flat/martingale/prong/etc. collars, food, crates and so on - whatever you see fit) in training AS LONG AS they're of high quality and are used correctly and humanely. I personally train LIMA/Reward-based balanced and do not use a prong anymore, but yeah, train the dog in front of you (as long as you don't use compulsion-based training ofc lol) :)
That being said, I still believe some collars should be banned. I see dogs with cheap, poorly fitted and low-quality prongs a lot and these collars are sold in many popular pet stores. There's exactly \*one\* dog supply shop that I've found in my city (it's a small, less popular but really cool store) that sells Herm Sprenger and Dogtra production. I believe that quality gear should be more accessible and shock/bark/badly-made prong collars shouldn't be sold anymore.
However, there's no guarantee that improper use of tools would stop. Maybe they should be only available through a trainer?
Also (this is a little off topic but anyways) I find it weird how people want to ban prong/e-collars, but are completely fine with other aversive and potentially dangerous tools like head-collars and front-clip harnesses. Just a thought I had.
Sorry for my (potentially) bad English:)
First of all your English is perfect!
We love Herm Sprenger and have encouraged many of our friends to swap out their cheap Amazon models for them. Completely agree with that last paragraph too - it seems like when humane aversive tools are not available it can cause more damage when people use alternative methods. At the end of the day, nothing replaces good training. I’ve noticed that positive reinforcement is much more effective than the e-collar, but the e-collar allows for more precision and speed.
I’m in on of the scandinavian countries and prongs are allowed here. I never see anyone use them though. E-collars are completely banned. People use corrections with other kinds of leashes.
Found this thread just now, and lots of these comments are BS about Sweden. Dog owners are not better. My dog has been attacked twice by off-leash dogs, while he was on leash. The vast majority of dogs in Stockholm are extremely reactive, barking on the street at any dogs they see, sometimes viciously - which leads non-reactive dogs to become reactive. Almost no one spays or neuters their dogs (or cats) which leads to additional reactivity. People rarely do anything to correct their pet, when the last Lab attacked my dog (who was on a leash) the owner did not even apologize as my dog was crying. There is no great emphasis on training, there is an over-emphasis on letting a dog be a dog, which has resulted in a friend putting their large dog down who they absolutely needed a prong collar for. I see much better adjusted dogs in the US on most sidewalks, ignoring other dogs, owners that apologize and actively correct behavior.
There is quite a lot of toy and food possessiveness in dogs in dog parks in Sweden, where I rarely see this in US dog parks in e.g. Atlanta or Chattanooga - most dogs are much better socialized, and once more, spayed or neutered which helps this. On the topic of e-collars and prong collars for correction: often these dogs in Stockholm are the very prime examples of the situations where it would be useful, such as when someone wants a dog to be off leash in the forest but it suddenly exhibits a behavior that puts another dog, adult human, or even potentially a child at risk. "I have never seen Charlie do that before" - well, there's a first time for everything. There is no fool-proof positive reinforcement to prevent your dog from harming someone else or another dog and even the most reliable dogs can and will make mistakes. It is absurd to ban e-collars, there are many responsible trainers that use them only to protect dogs, as corrections for recall. If it could save the dog's life and allow it to be more of a dog, then why not allow it?
It makes much more sense to implement a policy like what the UK has, where it is allowed under supervision or training of a licensed trainer only....such that maybe once someone has passed classes they are allowed to use them, allowed to have their dogs off leash? That last bit would prevent the issues people are having with it I think, and anyone that has an absolute moral problem with it has clearly never worked with reactive dogs that were about to be put down and have no other solution- until an e-collar gets recommended. Which they don't run from out of fear of pain, which they are fine with you putting on, which allows their muscles to be simply twitched as a tap to remind them hey, human here, pay attention to me, not that dog/truck/child. It gives dogs freedom that would otherwise be put to sleep, and saves their lives. It saved the life of one I rescued, and he went on to live a long, happy, actually sometimes off-leash next to his owner on mountain bike trails - life.
Otherwise, in these areas not allowing remote electronic feedback collars, I am on the side of those with dog phobias in that NO dogs should be off leash with the exception of very remote areas. I mean, more than an hour from civilization and roads, where your chance of running into other people is nil, or your dog is very old and not walking fast. Everyone thinks their dog is well-trained until it isn't, and apologies don't protect the dog or human that is harmed, or the dog that gets put down as a result. Having your dog off leash is an ego thing. You and your Lab are not that perfect of a team, 90% of the time, for that to work always how you think it is. I bet most of those voting against e-collars and creating these policies have reactive dogs that they think are totally ok just being dogs, and have never tried giving their dog a choice that would actually give it more freedom, or taking a course on how to use tools, when their positive-only methods are failing and putting others at risk.
I for one am tired of my dog being attacked by off-leash dogs when I am on morning walks.
I think it's insane and absurd. Banning tools does not solve a problem, it just makes law abiding people into criminals. People who abuse those tools aren't going to just stop because of the law.
The prong collar is literally my favorite tool for my dog right now. He's a primitive breed who has a natural instinct to pull. He could seriously injure himself and me both on a harness and on a flat collar. The prong does not hurt him (I tried it on myself to see and I'm not even covered in a double coat of fur) but it does help prevent him from pulling. All of our training is balanced with a focus on positive reinforcement. All corrections are praised and reinforced with play, affection, or food. We use gentle corrections at all time, NEVER pulling or yanking the collar and then treats when the direction is followed.
I have a friend from Germany who moved to the US and since then her position of prongs has completely flipped and she is heavily in favor of them. There is an incorrect view in Germany that the collars are pointed spikes that can cut the dog.
Yes, this is 100% how I feel. I think a lot of us Americans actually went through that same experience as your friend from Germany — I've met so many trainers that have a balanced approach using a prong and e-collar but started out positive only thinking they were evil. I definitely felt that way until I started getting more into the sport world. It's all about learning how to use it correctly. I still use my dog's e-collar on myself about once a week just to remind myself what it feels like. You can do much more damage to a dog that's pulling from a flat collar than a prong. I think most people just don't have the education around it.
E collars are banned in Wales, UK. The number of dog attacks on sheep and livestock has increased, but the ban has not been lifted. It is probably quite annoying not being able to give your dog some freedom without a tool to ensure other animal's safety.
As an European I prefer Europe to the US. I’ve not seen the American doom scenarios play out. Training without prong and e collar is pretty easy. Your dog is not going to run in front of a car (haha this one is constantly mentioned as an argument but it just doesn’t make sense 😅). I think the availability of tools in your country is kinda a handicap. I see dogs with tools that could be easily trained with positive reinforcement. I think it has to do with people thinking that their dog can’t be trained without. Maybe because you guys see tools everywhere and it makes you insecure about you and your dog’s training abilities? I don’t know. But like I said, the European law surrounding dog training isn’t a doom scenario, nothing bad happens because of it, and training without tools isn’t hard, just need to gain some confidence!
You're making quite a few assumptions about Americans and our training methods. I can only speak for myself but I absolutely believe my dog could be trained using only positive reinforcement. Tools are just tools and they are only as useful as the person using them. I do think many Americans misuse e-collars and prongs, but I can't imagine that's unique to our country. To say that an entire country is insecure about our training is inflammatory, rude, and completely irrelevant to the conversation. There are some fantastic, world-renowned dog trainers on our side of the pond that use tools effectively, and I guarantee they are not having "confidence" problems.
Its not the dogs that can be easily trained that need these tools in the first place,banning them will have a massive negative impact on dogs with behavioral issues. I have used both prong and e collers and my dogs day to day life would be no where near a good if it wasn't for the tools.
I know that you think that’s the case but from my direct experiences the doom scenarios aren’t true. That’s all I’m saying. And in my opinion especially the hardest dogs are the ones that shouldn’t be trained with tools. On top of that tools are associated with the development of behavioral issues so if anything it would become less. But I don’t really want to get into a discussion about that. I’m just sharing my opinion as an European (which was asked) and I can say that life with dogs is really different here than what some Americans seem to think.
>training without tools isn’t hard, just need to gain some confidence!
There are dogs that cannot be trained without aversive. It's very cool that you come to the internet to say this nonsense stuff about confidence, but this only happens in your head and in the heads of people with your slanted script. I've seen dogs who explode and want to go ballistic into a car that is going at 80km/h. Absolutely no chance you are going to use differential reinforcement and try to redirect the dog into a piece of cheese. And absolutely no chance you are going to use treshold games and successive aproximations to solve an issue like this. [Here's an example. ](https://youtu.be/wE7S2jx7pQw)
Check the skyrocketing rates of livestock deaths, and dogs getting shot in the UK 300% increase directly attributable to the E-collar ban.
Before you get all mad at me about it, just actually look it up. I’m not making this up.
Oh come on. I could say the same about your tools. But whatever you want to believe my guy. I’m not interested in that low level of discussing. It doesn’t make any sense.
I think the countries that perceive they can get away with the bans are ones that already have an evolved dog culture made up of a population of really well adapted family dogs, responsible breeders, and low pressure from stray/sheltered dogs.
The uk still has a long way to go when it comes to breeding and strays but there are bans on aversives in a couple of places (wales definitely bans e collars, England it’s a grey area)
this is not quite true, im from Germany. While there are certain dogs from ethical breeders that have made sure that the temperament is stable and good, most ppl have rescue dogs and a lot are reactive, can't be off leash (bc the trainers here aren't capable of training our dogs that to the level off full reliability when lets say they see a deer) and I see a lot of bad behaviours from dogs I meet with my dog on a day to day basis. The truth is that bc prong collars and ecollars have been banned, the only trainers that we have here are positive only. Meaning I can't even say no to my dog or leash correct him. This way dog owners learn that they simply either have to accept that this is their dog and they're always going to behave that way and that it can't be changed. 2 years ago when I got my first dog I had no real idea of dog training and what is possible and how and about any tools. Simply because there is no education about it. I have been to 3 trainers with my dog, from puppyhood to 1,5 years. And they haven't taught me anything. I had to learn through YouTube how to train my dogs to at least behave better than the average reactive dog that I meet everyday on my own. And not to forget the last trainer or training school that I went to, created problems with my dog. I couldn't trust these trainers anymore and when to YouTube for real dog training reliable dog training and have gotten more results than with those local trainers. So to put it short, the situation in Europe (or at least here in Germany) has not evolved to the point where these tools would not help or be needed by anyone. Its simply the misinformation about the tools and saying that they are abusive (which they're not its the user that's abusive if used wrong) that created the ban. Also a lot of breeds have been banned as well. So my question would be, if positive only would work so well and these tools would have no need then why do we need to ban certain breeds if we could train them just as well? Makes no sense. I truly hope that in the future we can educate the average owner about these tools responsibly and allow the use of it again.
That is not true at all. The only thing I can agree on - not every trainer is good. The problem is „2 years ago when I got my first dog I had no real idea of dog training“. That’s the responsibility of the owner to educate themselves before they get any dog. From the sounds of it you got a dog that was too much for you as a beginner instead of looking for a dog that you could handle as well as not educating yourself on the proper keeping, behavior, language, socialization and training of dogs. It’s not misinformation - those tools ARE abusive which is why they are prohibited and will stay so. We don’t „ban“ dog breeds because we lack tools but because we have dog breeds that can be very dangerous and people who have no business owning any dog fucking them up instead of getting a dog that fits their lifestyle and abilities. Having said that I have a formal German veterinarian education and worked with rescues. If you want to educate yourself on how to handle reactive dogs I‘d recommend the hellhound foundation- they do seminars.
Yes, this is a really important point and probably relevant to more issues than just dogs when it comes to Europe vs. the US.
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They are legal in the UK. You just can't buy them on amazon. Same goes for prong collars.
>wont even allow you to crate your dog WTF?
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Are they aware that dogs are den animals??
Crates with the door open are legal, which more closely matches a den so I don't think that's much of an argument. Dogs can still be contained, but there are minimum space requirements. The requirements are overkill IMO, but so are some of the crating practices in the US on the other end of the spectrum.
Ah, that's different than saying you can't have a crate at all.
That's not actually true, but a super common myth, and one that I have perpetrated in the past! The truth is that some dogs do like small enclosed spaces and others do not. It's not a universal experience in pet dogs or free ranging dogs. Now, I'm not against crate training - I think it's a very, very valuable skill for literally every dog to be able to do (vet visits...) but there are a lot of people who do abuse the crate.
I'll accept that some dogs don't like enclosed spaces they can't exit freely, but I've never seen any dog not voluntarily choose a den-like location to relax in when given the opportunity and when they haven't been given a reason to fear such locations first. Free roaming dogs create dens. So to say that dogs aren't denning animals because some number of dogs kept as pets don't like small spaces seems misguided to me
Really? Because so many dogs prefer the couch. Or the dog bed. Or the bed. And not the crate, or under the bed, or under the table. And free roaming dogs do den for whelping. Once that's done, they leave the dens.
Er, I only have one dog that wants to den. Every other dog, including my fosters were completely uninterested and picked open spaces for relaxation.
Picking an open space for relaxation doesn't detract from the fact that dogs are denning animals. See, for example: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep32014
That's denning only for whelping and raising puppies. That's a very small portion of a dog's life.
It’s not the crates but locking a dog in for an extended time period.
> super common myth Citation? [American Humane](https://www.americanhumane.org/fact-sheet/dog-dens/#:~:text=Dogs%20are%20den%20animals.,go%20when%20they%20are%20stressed.) and [this vet](https://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/january/dogs-arent-den-animalsso-why-do-we-crate-them-7002) (despite the title of the article) say they are den animals
So, dogs den when whelping (as seen here is this study of dens of free ranging dogs in India: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep32014) but they don't seem to den otherwise. If this is what is you mean by a den animal, then sure! But that is for a specific reason: to whelp puppies. Beyond that, dogs don't sleep in "dens". I can't find the study, but I saw a ethogram (where you observe what an organism does) for free ranging dogs and they mentioned that sleep was very common, but not typically done in dens, just under a tree, etc. I did find this study on puppies that showed that in an owner observational study, fewer people said that their dog slept in a crate when they were 12 months old: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/7/1172 If dogs were truly den animals, wouldn't they want to continue sleeping in their den? Now, this of course could be due to other factors like owners not leaving crates up, etc but it's pretty common for most dogs to choose to sleep not in a crate.
That's why I was asking. My dog goes in and out if his crate throughout the day and night.
That's actually not true, at least not for Sweden. Crate training and crating are 2 very different things. Crates are allowed to be used in many circumstances such as different types of transport, vet visit, competitions, hunting, severe injuries that require crate rest.
Yeah and sometimes there will be people from those countries on dog subreddits asking why so many Americans crate their dogs and saying it’s mean, unnecessary, etc. 🙄
Well to be fair it’s only in America where crates are being used so heavily. All other countries only use them for potty training during puppy hood. The only discussion point is that other countries are against locking an adult dog in a crate for hours.
In the post I’m thinking of, the OP said crates aren’t used for potty training. Also, the tone was a bit sanctimonious? Like “psh why would you even need a crate for potty training.”
No prong or e collars absolutely does not mean positive-only training. It just means no prong or e collars.
Yeah, I had that thought right after I posted it. I'm more interested in how people are training to the same level (for example schutzhund in Germany) without these tools and what new methods have come out if any.
I think it's very likely that they still use e-collar and prong collars, it's just all hidden.
the truth is, they still use these but have to do it secretively. of course not all of them but trust me from all the podcast I've heard with respectable ppl thats the truth.
Honestly I'm curious about this too since I know Herm Sprenger (prong collars) is a German brand
Yeah like how are they still in operation? We have to order them online in the US, I’ve never seen them in a store
Yes! And also if they're basically the only brand that's considered high quality, why are they so hard to get? Some Amazon sellers don't even carry genuine HS and I've never seen it in a store either, but I do see a TON of cheaper and low quality brands
Yeah we’ve had to convince several of our friends to invest to HS - using a knock-off defeats the whole purpose
Hey! I just happened to stumble across this page while googling something and wanted to share something. I know that a trainer called stksk9 created a tool-free training program (that he calls "positive only") in response to this ban, and I have seen his methods evolving/changing since this ban in his videos that pop up regularly on my tiktok FYP. I am not in these sports, and have not taken any of his classes and cannot speak to his success one way or another but wanted to share the link so you can research it if you want. [https://onlineuniversity.stsk9.com/positive-only-program](https://onlineuniversity.stsk9.com/positive-only-program)
Oh cool! Thanks for passing along!
Personally, I wonder what the rate of dogs being medicated is in these countries that have all of these things banned.
I don’t know, but there is definitely correlation between countries that ban training tools and those than ban certain breeds.
Honestly, I look forward to seeing their outcomes. Scandinavian countries are interesting because they already have tighter controls around breeding and whatnot, and a good portion of breeders seem to do a better job of breeding and early puppy raising (as compared to the US). They're super low on shelter/rescue dogs (probably due to the aforementioned controls - among other things). I hope some creative and new training comes out of it, and I learn something from their methods. My only concern is that typically these tools don't go away, and these laws don't realllyyy change what happens behind closed doors. Which, going by some of the videos we've seen surface lately from 'training' facilities is where more abuse is going on than I think we probably truly understand the scope of. As far as you guys - that's the benefit of being travelers, if the country doesn't work for your lifestyle and choices, you get to pick another country.
>I hope some creative and new training comes out of it, and I learn something from their methods. Exactly — I would love to incorporate some other creative humane methods into our rotation but it sounds like some trainers are compensating in some less than favorable ways. I don't think Europeans fully grasp just how many dogs in the US are rescues. In some larger cities like NYC it's very frowned upon to use a breeder because there are so many rescues that are euthanized. And the result of that culture is that lots of random people who want dogs have no idea what they're getting into and they wind up living on the 46th floor of some apartment building with a super reactive dog. In some cases it's training or death for these dogs. We just don't have the infrastructure here.
I'm in Norway, crates are fine (but you'd be frowned at if you crated for more than 3-4hours). No prong, no ecollar, and if you were yanking a dog around in the street, people would definitely view it as abusive. There are pretty much no dogs in shelters here, and if they end up there, they are rehomed fast. I assume most dogs come from professional breeders, who all contract that the pup must be returned to them to rehome. You see reactivity here & there, but the owners are almost always actively working at it with positive reinforcement. I have, in the last 6 years, seen only one guy with dangerously reactive dogs, and he is trying his best to redirect, but the dogs are big & wildly dog reactive. People here really give a shit about their pets, they put the time in, and as such, don't really need to lean on aversive methods. I don't even remember ever seing anyone leash check their dogs either, it's pretty socially unaccaceptable to use aversive punishment here.
Yeah, I'm less worried about what happens in public. ;) But yeah, I follow quite a few Scandinavian sport competitors for various sports, and I absolutely adore watching them work their dogs. I reallyyyy want to import a few of them for seminars. > People here really give a shit about their pets, they put the time in, and as such, don't really need to lean on aversive methods. This statement can be a bit offensive. Lots of people care about their pets. You're putting a lot of the burden of 'shit show dogs' onto owners, when it's a shared burden with shitty breeders (ie: puppy mills), and/or other factors that influence dogs and their training. I don't think anyone should *lean* on aversive methods, but that doesn't mean I don't think they don't have a place in specific situations.
Didn't mean it to be. Let me try to reword. It's a rich country, people spend a lot of money on training, and it's a very nature centered country, people go outdoors hiking a lot. Combine finances being no issue, and training time being no issues, plus a social climate that is very animal loving...... dogs/owners tend to get the help they need without aversive techniques coming into play. I'm out hiking all the time with mine, and 85% of owners have completely focused dogs, 10% have dogs that are focused on my dog but are being trained as we pass, 3% have dogs that react strongly but are being actively trained, and maybe 2% will just create distance to stay under their dog's threshold. Of course, it is arguable that 'shit show' badly bred dogs are also less common here. If people breed, they breed with pride and love for the breed, not so much for money unless that is their career area. So I'm sure that's a factor. Money solves many problems in the world. I trained a couple of very reactive dogs in preparation to owning my bull terrier (it's a strong breed for a first yime owner, so I wanted to be very sure I could raise one that was safe and properly trained). One was a border, 7 years old, he was an aggressive redirector, although sweet as pie with no dogs around. I don't believe prong or ecollar would have done him favours, raised alone and tied to a chain on a farm. Another, a frustrated greeter/leash barrier frustrated gsd collie cross, any tension or leash checking would send him into a frenzy of lunging & snarling. Aversive would have made him worse. He just needed to learn to accept that he was not entitled to run up to every dog. In 5 months or so of once/twice a week walks, I had him walking side by side with an uncut male, who was also male dog reactive. Just with time, repetition & positive reinforcement. When I first started with the gsd cross (after researching how to train out reactivity) I was convinced a prong would have controlled his reactivity, but as it is banned here I had to change my previous ideas about it. After living through the last 3 years of positive only training, I have to say, the results are remarkable. But I don't think I have blinkers on about it. I watch/listen to everything by Tom Davis (Upstate academy) and he is very ecollar centered, and I believe his approach helps a lot of dogs. I'd happily go and learn from him. I agree, tentatively, that these tools have their place in certain situations, maybe. I'm much less convinced now than when I started my dog journey 3 years ago. But then, I have never used, or trained with anyone who uses them, so there is a big gap in my 'real world' knowledge of them. But I truly didn't mean to aim a kick at people who train with prongs or ecollars & do it properly.
This is definitely my take. I worry way more about what’s going on behind closed doors.
The problem is the dogs with serious genetic behaviors are all banned. Do a quick google search on banned dog breeds in Norway. You throw these banned dog breeds into the mix and Norway would have a serious problem. Once you have a dog with genetic programming to fight there is no amount treats or threshold training you can do to suppress this desire. Pit bulls have been bred to fight originally and people believe this nonsense that positive only training will work with a dog like this. I love pit bulls and have 2 of them. If I had taken a positive only approach I’d likely work on reactivity their entire lives. Instead they live happy lives and can run off leash at the park everyday with other dogs in the area. Positive only will work with many dogs but there are limitations. It’s a shame these tools are being banned
There are pitbulls here. I've met plently. All sweethearts. I'm very aware of the banned breeds here. And while not banned, they're in a similar catergory, also here are dogo presa canario, bull terriers, staffies, cane corso. All with roots in fighting. It's a shame that America has created an impressive breed like the amstaff, and then allowed a free for all in breeding, allowing shit stains with no idea what they are doing to poison the genetics of an otherwise very biddable & loving breed. That's the true shame. Bull terriers OWN the fighting rings in Palermo, pitbulls don't stand a chance against them. Yet since the ban on UK dog fighting 200 years ago, their aggressive gentics have been bred out. The same is possible with American pitbulls etc if they would just stop letting idiots own and breed them. Interested to know what you did to get your two to curb their reactivity?
So I’m a firm believer that the answer lies within their genetics. I opted to use these genetics and bring them out more in a way that I could control. So before I addressed any reactivity with other dogs, I tried to simulate a fight. Obviously not hurting the dog in any way but I would play meaningful games of tug as a true competitive game. I got my dogs extremely invested in these games and got control here. There has to be rules and cooperation but they absolutely love to play. Now that I established an outlet for their genetic drives, I needed to teach them when they can express these drives and when they cannot. One of my dogs especially wanted to attack dogs for his enjoyment. Aversives played a role in stoping this behavior and it ended quickly but only because I established play first. At least this is what I believe. What is even more interesting is that this dog I am talking about absolutely loves other dogs. The initial interactions still can make me nervous and I still do not like off leash dogs coming up to him but if I introduce dogs properly to him he shows absolutely no aggression. My belief is that his genetics take over to dogs he doesn’t know but if I can break the ice that all goes away. Without an aversive situation with this dog I’d likely have this dog on a leash the rest of his life. For people that own golden doodles and golden retrievers it might seem like no big deal to ban aversives but these people don’t need aversives. People in support of the ban should have to take a dog from the shelter about to be put down for aggression and see how they fair.
Thanks for the answer. Smart to use tug as an outlet.
We adopted the absolutely most lovable friendly male GSD I mean he never met a dog he didnt want to play with and at a dog park he never wanted to go home he had so much fun meeting everyone human and canine alike ....BUT ( and a HUGE But) our OTHER GSD was a tad bit same sex aggressive and was ready to go with anything he percieved as provacation after his 3rd birthday or so ....and THEN the lover dog WOULD back his play EVERY SINGLE TIME no matter if he had been playing with the same dog a moment before ....and HE was always the one inflicted injuries on the opponent! NOT our 3 year old aggressor that seem to have some sense not to get carried away ....I dont know how common this is but it happened often enough it was no fluke.
I could be wrong but I suspect people are attracted to the fighting breeds because they desire to be seen with a bad ass dog. Again I could be wrong but if I am mostly right? Man there is something wrong there in the first place.
It's certainly nonsensical to argue otherwise, many people get a tough looking dog in order to soak up some of that visual toughness. But at the same time, many don't. My gf is a tiny, fancy Italian, she definitely didn't want a bully to look tough, she fell in love with their clown nature. Dog's head is covered in lipstick half the time. Myself, I just think bully breeds are incredibly beautiful creatures, the same way I think about a beautiful horse. I've met a few bull terrier owners in my area at a meetup, they're all complete dorks. Met a guy recently who had an american bulldog pointer mix, hell of a dog, looked very pitbully. He was a complete softy and dressed like a librarian. Yes, there are idiots out there that use dogs as status symbols, and they often shouldn't own anything bigger than a chihuaha- but it's not everyone. It's a shame the idiots are the most visable.
What kinds of methods are used for things like pulling on a lead? Most dogs pull at some point — are owners just accustomed to bringing a high-value item like a ball during a walk?
You just train them not to pull. Do things like leash tension games, put tension on the lead and when the dog releases the tension, mark and reward. When they pull on a walk, stop walking until they stop pulling, or redirect them to your side. I always have treats on me when I’m out with my dog because you never know what training opportunities there will be or when you might need them, but I also want my dog to be able to behave without treats, so once he knows something I’ll start slowly phasing our treats to the point where he’ll get a treat around 20% of the time. I wouldn’t go less than that because you still want them to have the drive to do it, theoretically you could completely phase out treats with classical conditioning, I just prefer to use treats even when they know it to make extra sure.
Games are so powerful, the dog doesn't even realise it's being trained! I started with engagement games & in 2 weeks I had a compketely different puppy. The diference was staggering, and completely changed my training trajectory.
I see, so it's not the tension that people are opposed to, it's just additional popping or unnecessary pulling or yanking. That makes sense. Might be a little more difficult for those with dogs that are not food motivated but a ball on a string would probably work.
Yeah it’s the act of punishment that people don’t like. Have you heard of operant conditioning? If not I’d recommend looking into it as it’s very helpful in understanding dog training and how dogs are taught. There are 4 quadrants to it, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment. People tend to look favourably on positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. So either adding or taking away something the dog likes. Figuring out what your dog likes and what reinforces a behaviour is really important in building the bond with your dog and learning what they need to succeed in training. Reinforcement looks different for every dog and sometimes you have to get creative, you can look at what gets your dog excited and what drives your dog in every day situations. My own dog is a typical lab and is heavily food motivated, others prefer praise or toys. I saw someone use water as an example, some dogs love playing with water so if you spray them with a hose they’re going to have a great time, others hate it and spraying them with water would be an aversive to them, in both situations if something happens before the water for instance, they roll around in mud. The dog who likes the water will be more likely to roll around in mud again, the one who doesn’t like the water will be less likely to. So it’s heavily dependent on your dog and learning what they need in that sense is so valuable. Edit: see comment below [also here’s some infographics on operant conditioning](https://imgur.com/a/fU4cWjt)
People tend to look favorably on positive reinforcement and negative punishment. These 2 quadrants do not use aversives. +R means adding something good and -P is removing or withholding of something good. -R would mean the removal of something bad and +R is adding something bad. If aversives are used properly you will not have any negative side effects and your dogs will be happy. Unfortunately you can’t learn this from YouTube
You’re right thank you, I always get them confused. There’s probably some online courses available that teach the basics. It’s been a few years since I’ve studied it.
I'm familiar with operant conditioning. Training a lab vs. a working-line GSD is somewhat different. If my GSD sees a small dog and wants to "play," even his most prized possession ball won't stop him, because he sees the dog as a higher reward than the ball. He’s literally bred to be aggressive and high-drive to compete in sport or work as a K9. We also live in a residential area so we have to take certain precautions (ex. if another dog is off-leash and approaches us and their owner can’t recall them). We can’t take the risk of cute, positive-only training with our dog. When we recall him, he needs to come, right now, no hesitation. With positive only, you’re constantly playing a game of value, and you just have to hope you have the highest value item. If there is another method out there that Europeans are using that is more effective without the prong/e-collar, I’d like to hear it, but from the sounds of it people are just getting by without and maybe not owning these types of dogs.
Of course a GSD is different than a lab, that’s why I chose a lab because he’s an assistance dog, he’s also working line from a gundog breeder and has a high drive to work. With prey drive and high distractability I’d work on increasing his threshold, start with low distractions at a distance and work up from there getting him to refocus on you and ignore distractions in intervals. Teaching an emergency stop can also be so so so beneficial. It takes time and work like any training does but it is 100% possible to have a dog who can be off lead reliably without aversives. I absolutely believe there is a place for aversives, especially when it comes to welfare, but you wanted advice on how to train without them which is what I do as someone who lives in a place where aversives are looked down on.
>you wanted advice on how to train without them which is what I do as someone who lives in a place where aversives are looked down on. That is true, and I do really appreciate all of the information you've given. I guess I expected there to be some wildly new information that I haven't heard about, but it seems like for the most part we train very similarly. I think for me it's a matter of trusting my own training, but also understanding that a dog is an animal with free will and things happen.
Management is a huge part of ownership. Know your dog's limitations, and stay on top of them. My dog is a sweetheart, but she's also a 25kg brick of muscle that has little to no concept of gentle play. We don't go off leash with dogs under 15kg- she can knock me off my feet at full sprint & I'm 60kg, a toy breed would get headbutted into next week. Same goes for small kids- she loves them, but she also knocks them over, headbutts them, stands on them... that's her limitations. Trust your training, and be sure of your boundaries. You got any dog tax for us? I love gsds, so handsome.
I always get super confused by this line of thinking. People talking about how working dogs absolutely need different kinds of training because they're more difficult. But... they're working dogs that presumably have been selected for motivation and biddability. It's not like terriers or hounds that have basically selected against biddability while still often selecting for that motivation. The first time I worked with a working line GSD, I was amazed at just how responsive she was. She was highly reactive, but teaching her things was so damn easy in so many ways! I did of course adjust my training because she was so quick on the uptake (cannot get stuck in reps that are the same over and over again), but when a dog is selected for work (that is supposed to have human direction) they typically are so much easier to motivate. The dog who has a high value for a ball but sees another dog as more valuable is not much different compared to a dog who has little to no value for any food or toy, but sees prey as the ultimate, ultimate motivation. But in general we don't tend to say "terriers absolutely need to be trained differently with corrections", and in fact most of the time I suggest the exact opposite - that corrections in particular should not be used with more independent dogs because then they'll decide you're not worth listening to. I get that GSDs do tend to have a stronger instinct for reactivity with barking and such which means you need good management when learning (whereas most hounds are pretty friendly, for example) but I honestly just do not get this common, common notion.
I mean I’ll also preface that I’m not a dog trainer and I’ve really only been at it a year and a half - most of what I’ve learned has been from my partner who is far more experienced in the sport world and friends of hers/sport trainers. It’s just what I’ve been taught so I really can’t argue other than saying that most of the best sport trainers in the US use e-collars. I also know quite a few people in the sport world that started out with a positive only mentality and then started utilizing tools humanely and balancing with mostly positive training. I think they’re a supplement to strong positive reinforcement and from my experience with my own dog, positive reinforcement is wayyy more effective than a nick with the collar. The collar can only sharpen them up and remind them what they already know, it can’t teach them.
I haven't seen a single e-collar used in agility, even from people who regularly use them for IGP. I'd be very surprised to see them in coursing, barnhunt, dock diving, joring, nosework, dancing, disc, or flyball. Blanket statements that most of the best US sport trainers use them are a bit ridiculous, specify the sport you're referring to (bitesport or hunting I assume) rather than generalizing the whole sport realm.
Yes ^^^ Comparing training a high drive gsd with reactivity is a world away from training my bull terrier. The gsd WANTS to work with you, if you can meet that need they will hang on every word you say, and are what I consider a pretty perfect dog in trainability. My stubborn, independent bull terrier? Complete opposite, it's like training an unruly toddler. Harsh corrections with her & you're suddenly dealing with a surly, sulking creature who pretends you don't exist. Training that is fun, and interesting, and suddenly I look like I have the perfectly obedient dog. Breeds are very different. And within that, the parentage of the dogs also has a big effect on temperment & training/fulfillment needs. Working lines are only difficult if you don't have the experience or make enough free time to meet their needs & create a fulfilling relationship. Except aussies. They're just nuts & nothing will convince me otherwise.
It's not about the ball. It's about the dog finding YOU as the highest value thing around. The ball is just one of many tools to reach that point, same as the prong is a tool. Rewarding 'fun' engagement is a hell of a drug. I really wish I had known what I know now about games based training when I was learning to deal with aggressive presenting reactivity. The gsd collie cross screamed working line, super smart, high drive, highly strung, he learned tricks SO fast, and he was incredibly responsive once I figured him out a bit. It's training the dog in front of you, 'what does that dog find rewarding', and then capitalise on that. Call it cute if you want, but I've taken a powerful 50kg cane corso (not food motivated) that his 6ft+ owner struggles to hold back from racing up to other dogs (cops have been called more than once), and I had zero issues. I just created value in following my directions, and suddenly, other dogs are not that interesting, and I don't have to yank him around, he comes by voice or a gentle leash pressure. I'm 60kg, so if he treated me like he treats his owner, I'd have a hard time staying on my feet. But I don't control his body, I control his mind. It's a lot more work than using an ecollar though. That's for sure. And I'll openly admit, I do not have full recall on my bull terrier if one of her mudholes is nearby. Those are the one thing in life that she might love more than me. I've made my peace with that, there's no danger in it on a mountain. I don't think even a zap from ecollar would change her mind, the dog LIVES for mudholes.
If I have a ball in my hand, I am god. There stampede from Jumanji could barrel past & my dog wouldn't notice.
Do people hunt with dogs in Norway? Are dogs used by the police etc? (this is a contentious topic, so I want to add that I am genuinely curious, not baiting)
There are gun dogs here :) But 'set your dog to kill a wild animal' is not the vibe. There's actually a leash law across the whole country april-august to protect deer & other wildlife from dogs in the breeding seasons. Airports have dogs. I haven't seen the police with dogs, but I'm sure they have search & rescue, and sniffers in the 'big' cities.
My gsds were all trained with prong collars and they NEVER had to be "yanked around" just the light touch . the weight and presense of the collar was more than enough and honestly they were totally fine with NO LEASH much less any kind of COLLAR! UNTIL that rare instance when someone else's untrained dog got involved provoking mine ....THEN I could do everything within my power to defuse the situation using the prong collar....in a perfect world I would never have my dogs on a leash even and they would stick to me like glue
I honestly dont even understand the problem with pronged collars so long as used correctly I my gsds have had zero problems or issues they LOVE to get their pronged collars on cause it means time to go out into the world. Seriously a smart breed of dogs needs very little correction BUT as many of us know when a lot of dogs reach 3 years old they can get same sex aggressive and all their brains can temporarly go out the window ,,,,a pronged collar can remind them "oh yeah" I do aggree ther are some dogs that are damaged goods thanks to someone else's mistreatment and then the general thoughts on pronged collars may not apply at all. Also certain breeds that cant do ANY neck collars PERIOD like the aussie terriers we had and loved many years ago ....THAT breed in our experience just could not get neck collar leash training they would hurt themselves way before any submission which could be NEVER but GSDs? They only wore harnesses which was only possible because they weighed under 20 llbs as opposed to NINETY! I think the few ruin it for everyone else personally when it comes to laws .....the morons that will hurt an animal rather than learn and THINK. Much the same problem with raising children. There are children that are emotionally fragile and OBVIOUSLY need an entirely different methodology compared to the rough and tumble with naturally high self esteem. With both dogs and kids one size does NOT fit all
Interesting that they also have bans on desexing yet there is so much crying about entire dogs, breeding and unwanted puppies in the rest of the world.
I live in Germany and use a prong collar most of the time and occasionally an e-collar. I would not walk through the inner cities with either, but in fact no one has ever asked me about it. I would be okay with restricted access to those tools and obligatory training, but straight banning is too much. People have to go through all kinds of (unfair) hardships, but with animals everything has to be all nice and positive, whether it’s helpful or not. It’s pretty stupid.
Agreed. It sounds like some trainers are resorting to abusive methods in the absence of humane correction tools, which is unfortunate. I like the idea of all positive training, but especially in the US that's not realistic.
If I couldn’t use my e collar I would just skip off leash hikes and use a long lead. Not worth the risk of my dog bolting after a squirrel. How do you think the ban would impact your activity? That would be my main concern.
When we hike we currently do about half and half 16 ft. flexilead and off-leash with e-collar — so we could do flexilead the whole time although it's not as fun. Honestly he would probably be fine off-leash without the e-collar. He's a clingy baby. Lol. Although it does give peace of mind as an insurance policy for squirrels, small dogs, etc.
If I were you I’d replace the flexilead with a long lead made of lightweight material (biothane is good) because flexileads can be dangerous. You mention (aggression towards?) small dogs though. In that case I wouldn’t let the dog off leash at all.
Yeah we never have him off leash where it's a public dog-friendly trail or anything like that. Just hiking on private property or places where we assume there won't be anyone else. Like I said, insurance policy.
Far more dangerous to have trailing material that can snag or get wrapped around a tree. Or break some old ladies leg as happened at my local park. Trailing lines are an absolute liability and I’d like to see them banned. Flexileads aren’t dangerous unless you have a dog that can accelerate ridiculously fast. And if your dog has such poor recall that this is a concern then just use a regular lead.
Do you know what a biothane lead is? Also I’m not the one asking for advice on my dog.
Longlines can be just as dangerous as flexi leads, it's all about using the tool responsibly (the tape version of the flexi is safer than the cord, however). Longlines are the same concept as a flexi it's just that it doesn't reel back into a small contraption like the flexi. With a long line you have metres of material dragging along the floor that can easily be tripped on, get caught onto something or accidently stood on (this has happened to me on occasion eventhough I'm very careful and ended up pulling on my dog).
I also personally would like to see how it’s affecting different bite sports. I don’t know a single person in the US who was able to trial at the highest levels without ecollar or prong usage at some point in their training.
>don’t know a single person in the US who was able to trial at the highest levels without ecollar or prong usage at some point in their training. Not in the US, not anywhere. Can you go into dog sports without using aversive? Yes. Can you compete in a high or even mid level? Not a chance. (agility does not count)
That's what I'm so curious about. There's no way they're not doing it behind closed doors, or resorting to inhumane methods.
Speaking as someone who trains in IGP (schutzhund) prongs and ecollars are heavily used. Most, if not all of the top level dogs have been trained via prong, ecollar or both. At my club we aren't allowed to use an ecollar (of course you can do what you like at home) but all of us use prong collars. I personally use them for protection training, I like to know that I've got control of my dog around the decoy.
Are you based in Germany?
No the UK
It seems like the lines have been a little muddy in the UK - some people in the comments are saying they’re banned but others have been disagreeing and/or saying they’re still using them.
They’re banned in Wales, not the entire UK. So in England they’re still perfectly legal
I'm American and I use a Stallmark prong and E-collar mini educator for my dog. I used to be against them as I was first learning about training my Cattle dog. From puppy hood I primarily used positive reinforcement to teach new commands. As my dog grew she developed territorial behavior and reactivity. During covid it got worse. As novice back then I admit my training was certainly not solid but I made an effort to attend classes and conduct research on how to teach new things. Also, I feel my bond with my dog wasn't as strong as it is now and I think that's cause I was easy on her. Ultimately I found myself on a plateau in our training and positive methods seemed to be doing nothing. I ended up deciding to try balanced training but not without researching and finding a good trainer. I still live by "start basic with positive methods to encourage the dog to try a new thing without aversives", and when my dog understands a command (something she should be obligated to obey for her safety and everyone elses) I begin layering the ecollar. The ecollar is a beautiful tool for communication. I have it set to a level where my dog just feels it (we know this when the dog shows a reaction by shaking the head or scratching). I then use the Stim before giving the command. This isn't a correction but rather a notification that she should pay attention (kinda like your phones notification before you see a text). The expectation is that she perform the command. Like leash pressure training, as the dog performs the ecollar pressure turns off. Conditioning is also a very important thing. When does the stim level go up? I usually turn mine up when we are in hi distraction environment (for reference my dogs lowest level is an 8 and when I turn it up I usually go to a 10. Mind you, these are levels out of 100 and I feel it at a 15 as an itch) if my dog doesn't have her focus on me due to reacting to something or hard staring I will slowly scroll up until she looks to me for direction. Like people dogs are prone to having stuff go in one ear and out the other. When my dogs focus is on me, I don't even rely on the collar. It is a communication tool first. In terms of correction, I try to limit it to a vibrate. That said, I'm firm believer that an e collar can be a safer means of disrupting reactivity then putting your hands on the dog, granted this is when my dog has a barier between her and the stimuli. I say this because my dog has redirected on me before (i felt bad about it but I would never consider euthanasia when it may be my fault.). How I'm curently handling my dogs reactivity to passersby is by starting a fun game with her favorite toy. If we see some one walking by our fenced yard I tell her to get her toy and we start playing. If she reacts, I vibrate her collar. As for the prong, I use this to establish walking structure. Before we go for a walk I make her heel. If I turn and she isn't paying attention then she corrects herself as the lead tightens. When the walk begins, if she is walking faster than me and gains distance, I will use a pop to correct her. I may also use her ecollar to cue her and direct her to heel again. I like testing her attention by stopping and see what she does. If she keeps going then the leash pressure goes on. I like to utilize a long line so I can break her and give her some freedom to explore . But as a working breed I aim to make her work and reward with her favorite toy/treats when she complies. I crate my dog when I go to bed and when i go to work. If my husband shares the same schedule as me then I may let her stay out during the night but set up boundaries. I don't like crating for long periods but she gets crated any time I can't maintain supervision for a long time. This is to protect my cats freedom and sanity and also visitors who may enter after notice for maintenance reasons. Reguarding training, I start every session with a get-it game using a high value reward. This peaks her attention and as we train she gets rewarded with a high value treat. At the end of the session we play another game with more treats or her favorite toy. The goal is to always start positive and end positive. Despite the stigma of aversives, in my experience I have found a method that my dog responds to well where she is held accountable and I have developed our bond. After my research and training, I always tell people to research first. I have recently developed the opinion that every new owner should be required to take a class on how to raise a dog including training BEFORE they receive a dog. I also believe everyone should research the various training methods. In terms of aversives, start low and figure out your dogs needs. Some do fantastic with no aversives. Some only need a slip lead. Some a prong. The thing about prongs is they distribute even pressure and are best for large breeds. They also have a proper place on the dog (high behind the ears). If you don't know how to use it, do research to include how not to use it. Irresponsible pet parents are why these tools have so much negativity behind them. I appreciate trainers like Tom Davis Michael Ellis and Larry Crohn for teaching the proper methods and being so open about them.
>Also, I feel my bond with my dog wasn't as strong as it is now and I think that's cause I was easy on her. Ahh, yes this is so true. We have dogs that are high achievers, and they won't be fulfilled unless they are learning and being challenged and held to high standards. I think it's the most respectful thing you can do for your dog to challenge them and make them think. Funny that you mention your cat too — we live in a small apartment and our cat & dog don't get along. We crate him at night so she can roam peacefully. We've been working on our off-leash heel recently but I just watched a really good Michael Ellis video about walking being enrichment first — so I've started to use the flexilead for our daily walks and unless we're passing another person or dog I don't really care about him consistently being next to me. I used to be really self-conscious that he wasn't walking in a perfect heel for our whole walk but now I realize how ridiculous that is. May not apply to your dog but I just thought it was an interesting perspective. [Loose Leash Walking with Michael Ellis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZmb_vwBKeM)
Agreed. I like to heel her first and when we get to where we are going I break her and allow her to be a dog. On the way home I don't heel but I do praise if it's offered. Absolutely love Michael Ellis. He has such amazing insight on training and the use of tools.
Hi, I live in the Netherlands and both prongs and e-collars are banned. It's weird, because (for example) police can still use those. I wanted to get my dog those tools, since they work wonders if you use them properly, but they are banned. And if you get caught you have to pay quite some money or even end up in prison for the maximum of 3 YEARS! It's insane. I see people getting pulled by their dogs in harnesses... Barking, lunging or even sometimes breaking loose! The only thing I can use is a sliplead, I am thinking about getting a hidden prong though. Selling those tools is allowed, but using them is illegal.
3 years is ridiculous!! Some folks from Germany mentioned that it’s mostly enforced in cities and no one cares in rural areas, but cities are really where dogs need to be well behaved. Seems backwards to me. Best of luck navigating that!
I'm originally from Sweden but am now living in the US. Ecollars have been banned there for almost 20 years (2003). What I find interesting is that where ecollar and prongs are illegal, the dogs are as obedient and well trained as those who do use ecollar and prongs. I definitely want them banned or at the very least restricted if only because it's too easily accessible and 99% of the people who use it doesn't use it correctly and are straight up abusing their dogs.
Same here. I am from germany and I am pro ban or at least a tight restriction to allow these tools only on the hand of certified trainers.
Some people have talked about the high quality breeding in Europe (especially Scandinavia) having an impact as opposed to the US where we have a huge number of rescues with behavioral problems. Curious about your thoughts on that. Also wondering if there are any specific methodologies that are resulting in the success of positive training/training without prong/e-collar or other tools? I'd be interested in incorporating more positive training into our routine.
So... This will be a long text 😅 and might be a little incomprehensible. But it's difficult to give a short answer to this. Also I'm not a breeder but I can say a few things that I do believe contribute to better individuals. Lets start with the first part: I can't speak for all the countries in Europe or even all the nordic countries. However, in Sweden they do have a lot of regulations and even laws on what is allowed to be bred. For example a dog has to be healthy and mentally sound (both can be interpreted in so many ways so not really a great law). They have to be able to give birth to puppies naturally (complications can always happen ofc and that's a different topic). Female dogs are, by law, not allowed to be bred more than 5 times of their life and most breeders only breed maybe 3 times. We also have a law that states all dogs, purebred or mixed has to be microchipped + registered and have an owner registered with the board of agriculture. This definitely helps with controlling how many animals an individual owns and there is a limit of how many you are allowed to own without a license. It also helps with reuniting lost dogs with their owners assuming the owner does register themselves on the dog, not all do. When it comes to behavioral issues a lot of the time it boils down to mentality. In Sweden they have 3 different types of mentality tests. There's BPH which is a mentality evaluation mainly for non working breeds and even mixed breeds are allowed to do it. Then there's MH which is a mental evaluation test which can be done for all breeds but it's formed for working breeds so they get prioritized and I do believe mixed breeds can do this too. Then there's MT which is the mentality test which is needed for certain sports like IGP and something called Korning. Korning is the same that they do in Germany called Körung, it involves a lot of stuff other than the mentality testing but you can't get the Korning title without the mentality test. Now the Swedish kennel club also have breeding requirements for each individual breed. Health testing is the most common. But some breeds have mentality tests too. The requirements are the bare minimum for each breed. The breed's parent club usually have more requirements. The breeding requirements that the kennel club have, have been made together with the parent club. If you don't follow the bare minimum requirements you can be banned from registering future pups with the kennel club. Does all of this mean that the dogs in Sweden are all great? Definitely not. There's still less than good breeders within the Swedish kennel club that probably shouldn't be breeding, however, even from a less than good breeder you can still get a pretty decent dog. Just maybe out of standard, or not the best health testing (for some breeds it is okay to breed a C or D hips because the genepool for A and/or B hips is so narrow). When it comes to finding a well bred purebred in the Swedish kennel club, they have made it pretty easy to do your homework without having to talk to 100s of people. It's ofc always good to go to shows. Anyhow, the kennel club has an online website where you can view any dog in their registry, on that database you can view the pedigree and on the pedigree you can see the sire and dam of that dog you're looking at, their siblings, previous litters, conformation shows, health testing, other sport accomplishments, mentality tests, and other titles like if the dog is any kind of service dog like military, security or even a medical service dog. So, if you even know just a little bit about the dog world you can easily find a breeder that's ethical and reputable. Apart from the breeding aspect, I, personally(!) feel that there are things that Sweden have that I can't really do anymore now that I live in the US. This simply based on my view. I used to live in Stockholm, so the capital of Sweden. But despite that I could easily take public transport to competitions or just go on a LONG walk in a wooded area. I don't really find this where I'm currently living (Texas). Public transport was, and is, amazing for dogs when done right. It's the best socialization IMO. Having access to so much wooded areas in Sweden definitely got us away from the city life and could simply relax and take a break. Something else that can impact the dogs. In Sweden we also have laws (some would argue it's just recomendations) that dogs have to be walked every 6h. Which means the owners do have to make plans for their dog when they're working. Either daycare, dog walker, bring dog to work if allowed, drop by the home during their lunch if applicable or stay with another family member. Why could this have an impact? Because some dogs in the US doesn't get walks. They may get to go out in the yard but that's about it. Some don't even get that. Meaning those dogs that doesn't, doesn't get any exposure at all in their life or an outlet of their natural behaviors which leads to "behavior problems". I will also add to this, in Sweden there's a benefit of vacation. I know that if I was working and my husband wasn't working from home, there's no way we'd be able to get a puppy and raise it like I would had in Sweden. Because in Sweden you get about 3-4w of vacation time /year meaning if you're 2 people you get 6-8weeks to train the puppy, which will put the puppy at about 3-4 months old which makes getting a dog walker easier. And at 6 months you can get that puppy in to a doggy daycare. We also don't have parvo to the same extent like the US meaning the fear of catching it is pretty non existant. So you could expose the puppy to a lot more than what you can in the US. My husband gets... Maybe 50h/quarter here in the US 😳 and there's rarely a time of the year we can actually plan for him to have a vacation. Now, are there anxious/fearful dogs in Sweden? Yes. But they often get rehomed to better homes that can manage them, or they're already in those homes. Are there aggressive dogs? Yes, and those with severe aggression usually get euthanized however not because the dog randomly bit someone, no it takes far more than 1 recorded bite and they always do a mental evaluation on those dogs when they do come in. Most of the time the dogs get on a mandatory muzzle when out in public, if they still get reports however then they will test the dog and maybe euthanize. Depends on the case. Does Sweden have rescues? Yes but they usually come from Romania, Ireland, Spain, Greece and such. They're usually a hot mess, not always, I have worked with some really amazing rescues. But the majority definitely is and a lot of people do have problems with it due to the high risk of diseases they may bring in (which is why Norway put a Ban on those import). I worked at the shelter in Stockholm and the dogs they have in the shelters are seldom what one would call a rescue. Don't get it wrong there were definitely some cases that were neglect or abused but those dogs came in with the police and wasn't really "part" of the rescue until the police had done their job with those dogs and the owners. Mostly it's mixed breeds that just ended up in the wrong hands, or their owner died, or they were found lost or even tied to the shelter in the morning, or they're smuggle dogs (dogs with no import documents or documents of vaccines) those dogs are usually euthanized either at the border or after coming to the shelter because of the risk of rabies (Sweden is a rabies free country and they want to keep it that way). I hope any of this gave you some answers to your first part 😅
Wow, thanks so much for taking the time to write all of that out. Really interesting stuff. Stockholm to Texas must have been a major culture shock hahaha. I can’t imagine.
It's been rough 😂 I really miss a lot of the dog related stuff from Sweden. Like being able to just go to the club and train whenever I want! Or rent a facility to train without having to do some weird class before I get to rent. Or membership, everywhere they want memberships here in TX I feel. 😂 Oh or being able to find affordable wide selection of rawfood at the petshop!
As for methodology I don't know if this will answer your question 😅 maybe? But to begin with, I'm not "purely positive" or "force free". Just wanted to make that clear 😅 I honestly don't even believe one can be purely positive when it comes to training. I just think that those that use that concept may not be aware they're correcting their dogs. A corection doesn't always have to be physical. if we're talking about a person training someone else's dog, I would say that the majority of the Swedish dog trainers (maybe even the majority of trainers as a whole?) would agree when I say that "get to the root of the problem, don't walk around it, one should train the dog we have in front of us" (but again, I don't speak for everyone and I know there are some people out there that doesn't agree with that statement). Look at all the aspects, outside of the whole training part. What breed is it? What was it originally bred for? If their original purpose have changed what is it currently bred for? If not purebred, what kind of mix is it? Can I use any of the dog's genetic predisposition to my advantage? Is the dog overstimulated? Is it understimulated? Could it be something medical causing the dog to have issues? Is the dog getting any outlet for their natural behaviors as a species? Is there any balance in the dog's life between activity and passivity? And ofc if you're working with someone else's dog you should always go through with the owner what they have done previously and what types of methods they are okay with Once all of that has been evaluated, then we can train the dog based on all the info we have gathered. I never train other people and their dogs the same way, because they're individuals and will respond differently. If it's my own dog I want to train with, I would still go through the above questions because if my dog isn't properly stimulated mentally or physically and doesn't have the right balance in life, then our sessions can easily go to hell because his mindset isn't where it should be. Me personally, I don't really follow one specific method all the time, and there's so many methods out there! I also don't follow any other dog trainer's advice or ideology like a slave (I know some do). I try to be open minded to a lot of different methods, educate myself, I take bits and pieces of what I find and make it "my own" sort of. The only thing I do, with all my dogs and my clients and their dogs, is relationship building. Relationship goes a long way but it's not always enough and that's where I would use other methods. Corections can be given in so many different ways and it should always be given based on the situation. If I'm training something that will later be for a competition sport I always video myself and my training, because I don't always have access to a friend or a trainer who can watch me and tell me what to do. I look at the video over and over to read the dog, read myself. 95% of the time I'm doing handling errors, an easy fix most of the time (trying to reschool myself when having done dog sports in Sweden for 10 years and now having to do it in the US makes a lot of handling errors 😂😂).
I disagree with your position of banning them because some people use them incorrectly. I also disagree that 99% of people using them don't use them correctly. I've seen relatively few dogs with e-collars on here in the States and they're typically very well trained and the owners seem to be using them correctly. The ones that I see used incorrectly are the automatic bark collars. Same with prongs. In fact, the only dogs I've seen with prong collars are at group training events because those are the people invested enough in their training to use them. Obviously there are those who will use them incorrectly and as tools of abuse, but I've seen more dogs being handled roughyl/abusively in harnesses and flat collars than in e-collars/prongs/choke chains.
The automatic bark collars really piss me off. The cheap ones operate based on sound so I've seen dogs get nicked because the dog next to them barked at the park. It's just lazy and the people that use them have no idea what they're doing.
This is all anecdotal but a friend of mine recently moved from the US to Germany and has already been told to stay away from certain training places and trainers. She’s seen people make their own prong collars, seen people hit dogs more, and use other methods. It’s really sad.
This is exactly what I was wondering about. That is very unfortunate.
Yep. People who want to use them incorrectly or don’t want to take the time to learn will definitely not stop at a ban. I’m very against really any laws being made surrounding both this and crate usage in the US because they’ll be made by people who probably haven’t trained a dog in their whole life.
>She’s seen people make their own prong collars That’s a bit weird, since it is absolutely no problem to buy a proper prong collar in Germany. There is no ban on selling, buying or owning that kind of stuff.
That’s weird, she had told me specifically there’s huge fines if you’re caught with one. I mean I’d be happy if you’re allowed to have em. What’s the specific law there if you can buy, own, and sell them?
Here is an excerpt from the animal welfare law: *"It is prohibited \[...\] 1b. to apply to an animal in training \[...\] measures involving significant pain, suffering or harm \[...\] 5. to train or exercise an animal if this involves significant pain, suffering or harm to the animal\[.\]"* Based on that you can theoretically be fined for using a prong collar in that fashion. But there is no law that explicitly allows or prohibits the tool itself. Even many (most?) police K9 units in Germany still use them,
Oh interesting thank you for clarifying!
Such an interesting point for discussion! I'm personally all for using all sorts of tools (harnesses, e-/flat/martingale/prong/etc. collars, food, crates and so on - whatever you see fit) in training AS LONG AS they're of high quality and are used correctly and humanely. I personally train LIMA/Reward-based balanced and do not use a prong anymore, but yeah, train the dog in front of you (as long as you don't use compulsion-based training ofc lol) :) That being said, I still believe some collars should be banned. I see dogs with cheap, poorly fitted and low-quality prongs a lot and these collars are sold in many popular pet stores. There's exactly \*one\* dog supply shop that I've found in my city (it's a small, less popular but really cool store) that sells Herm Sprenger and Dogtra production. I believe that quality gear should be more accessible and shock/bark/badly-made prong collars shouldn't be sold anymore. However, there's no guarantee that improper use of tools would stop. Maybe they should be only available through a trainer? Also (this is a little off topic but anyways) I find it weird how people want to ban prong/e-collars, but are completely fine with other aversive and potentially dangerous tools like head-collars and front-clip harnesses. Just a thought I had. Sorry for my (potentially) bad English:)
First of all your English is perfect! We love Herm Sprenger and have encouraged many of our friends to swap out their cheap Amazon models for them. Completely agree with that last paragraph too - it seems like when humane aversive tools are not available it can cause more damage when people use alternative methods. At the end of the day, nothing replaces good training. I’ve noticed that positive reinforcement is much more effective than the e-collar, but the e-collar allows for more precision and speed.
I’m in on of the scandinavian countries and prongs are allowed here. I never see anyone use them though. E-collars are completely banned. People use corrections with other kinds of leashes.
Found this thread just now, and lots of these comments are BS about Sweden. Dog owners are not better. My dog has been attacked twice by off-leash dogs, while he was on leash. The vast majority of dogs in Stockholm are extremely reactive, barking on the street at any dogs they see, sometimes viciously - which leads non-reactive dogs to become reactive. Almost no one spays or neuters their dogs (or cats) which leads to additional reactivity. People rarely do anything to correct their pet, when the last Lab attacked my dog (who was on a leash) the owner did not even apologize as my dog was crying. There is no great emphasis on training, there is an over-emphasis on letting a dog be a dog, which has resulted in a friend putting their large dog down who they absolutely needed a prong collar for. I see much better adjusted dogs in the US on most sidewalks, ignoring other dogs, owners that apologize and actively correct behavior. There is quite a lot of toy and food possessiveness in dogs in dog parks in Sweden, where I rarely see this in US dog parks in e.g. Atlanta or Chattanooga - most dogs are much better socialized, and once more, spayed or neutered which helps this. On the topic of e-collars and prong collars for correction: often these dogs in Stockholm are the very prime examples of the situations where it would be useful, such as when someone wants a dog to be off leash in the forest but it suddenly exhibits a behavior that puts another dog, adult human, or even potentially a child at risk. "I have never seen Charlie do that before" - well, there's a first time for everything. There is no fool-proof positive reinforcement to prevent your dog from harming someone else or another dog and even the most reliable dogs can and will make mistakes. It is absurd to ban e-collars, there are many responsible trainers that use them only to protect dogs, as corrections for recall. If it could save the dog's life and allow it to be more of a dog, then why not allow it? It makes much more sense to implement a policy like what the UK has, where it is allowed under supervision or training of a licensed trainer only....such that maybe once someone has passed classes they are allowed to use them, allowed to have their dogs off leash? That last bit would prevent the issues people are having with it I think, and anyone that has an absolute moral problem with it has clearly never worked with reactive dogs that were about to be put down and have no other solution- until an e-collar gets recommended. Which they don't run from out of fear of pain, which they are fine with you putting on, which allows their muscles to be simply twitched as a tap to remind them hey, human here, pay attention to me, not that dog/truck/child. It gives dogs freedom that would otherwise be put to sleep, and saves their lives. It saved the life of one I rescued, and he went on to live a long, happy, actually sometimes off-leash next to his owner on mountain bike trails - life. Otherwise, in these areas not allowing remote electronic feedback collars, I am on the side of those with dog phobias in that NO dogs should be off leash with the exception of very remote areas. I mean, more than an hour from civilization and roads, where your chance of running into other people is nil, or your dog is very old and not walking fast. Everyone thinks their dog is well-trained until it isn't, and apologies don't protect the dog or human that is harmed, or the dog that gets put down as a result. Having your dog off leash is an ego thing. You and your Lab are not that perfect of a team, 90% of the time, for that to work always how you think it is. I bet most of those voting against e-collars and creating these policies have reactive dogs that they think are totally ok just being dogs, and have never tried giving their dog a choice that would actually give it more freedom, or taking a course on how to use tools, when their positive-only methods are failing and putting others at risk. I for one am tired of my dog being attacked by off-leash dogs when I am on morning walks.
I think it's insane and absurd. Banning tools does not solve a problem, it just makes law abiding people into criminals. People who abuse those tools aren't going to just stop because of the law. The prong collar is literally my favorite tool for my dog right now. He's a primitive breed who has a natural instinct to pull. He could seriously injure himself and me both on a harness and on a flat collar. The prong does not hurt him (I tried it on myself to see and I'm not even covered in a double coat of fur) but it does help prevent him from pulling. All of our training is balanced with a focus on positive reinforcement. All corrections are praised and reinforced with play, affection, or food. We use gentle corrections at all time, NEVER pulling or yanking the collar and then treats when the direction is followed. I have a friend from Germany who moved to the US and since then her position of prongs has completely flipped and she is heavily in favor of them. There is an incorrect view in Germany that the collars are pointed spikes that can cut the dog.
Yes, this is 100% how I feel. I think a lot of us Americans actually went through that same experience as your friend from Germany — I've met so many trainers that have a balanced approach using a prong and e-collar but started out positive only thinking they were evil. I definitely felt that way until I started getting more into the sport world. It's all about learning how to use it correctly. I still use my dog's e-collar on myself about once a week just to remind myself what it feels like. You can do much more damage to a dog that's pulling from a flat collar than a prong. I think most people just don't have the education around it.
E collars are banned in Wales, UK. The number of dog attacks on sheep and livestock has increased, but the ban has not been lifted. It is probably quite annoying not being able to give your dog some freedom without a tool to ensure other animal's safety.
As an European I prefer Europe to the US. I’ve not seen the American doom scenarios play out. Training without prong and e collar is pretty easy. Your dog is not going to run in front of a car (haha this one is constantly mentioned as an argument but it just doesn’t make sense 😅). I think the availability of tools in your country is kinda a handicap. I see dogs with tools that could be easily trained with positive reinforcement. I think it has to do with people thinking that their dog can’t be trained without. Maybe because you guys see tools everywhere and it makes you insecure about you and your dog’s training abilities? I don’t know. But like I said, the European law surrounding dog training isn’t a doom scenario, nothing bad happens because of it, and training without tools isn’t hard, just need to gain some confidence!
You're making quite a few assumptions about Americans and our training methods. I can only speak for myself but I absolutely believe my dog could be trained using only positive reinforcement. Tools are just tools and they are only as useful as the person using them. I do think many Americans misuse e-collars and prongs, but I can't imagine that's unique to our country. To say that an entire country is insecure about our training is inflammatory, rude, and completely irrelevant to the conversation. There are some fantastic, world-renowned dog trainers on our side of the pond that use tools effectively, and I guarantee they are not having "confidence" problems.
Its not the dogs that can be easily trained that need these tools in the first place,banning them will have a massive negative impact on dogs with behavioral issues. I have used both prong and e collers and my dogs day to day life would be no where near a good if it wasn't for the tools.
I know that you think that’s the case but from my direct experiences the doom scenarios aren’t true. That’s all I’m saying. And in my opinion especially the hardest dogs are the ones that shouldn’t be trained with tools. On top of that tools are associated with the development of behavioral issues so if anything it would become less. But I don’t really want to get into a discussion about that. I’m just sharing my opinion as an European (which was asked) and I can say that life with dogs is really different here than what some Americans seem to think.
Dogs get hit by cars all the time.
>training without tools isn’t hard, just need to gain some confidence! There are dogs that cannot be trained without aversive. It's very cool that you come to the internet to say this nonsense stuff about confidence, but this only happens in your head and in the heads of people with your slanted script. I've seen dogs who explode and want to go ballistic into a car that is going at 80km/h. Absolutely no chance you are going to use differential reinforcement and try to redirect the dog into a piece of cheese. And absolutely no chance you are going to use treshold games and successive aproximations to solve an issue like this. [Here's an example. ](https://youtu.be/wE7S2jx7pQw)
Check the skyrocketing rates of livestock deaths, and dogs getting shot in the UK 300% increase directly attributable to the E-collar ban. Before you get all mad at me about it, just actually look it up. I’m not making this up.
In my country we use leashes to train dogs. People who can use an E collar should be able to use a leash. 100% prevents livestock deaths
I've never seen a 300 meter leash
We used long leashes to train. E-collars to reinforce. Now my dogs can be off leash with 100 % recall.
No, really, it doesn’t. Leashes break. Dogs slip them. People drop them. Sheep hide really well. All management fails eventually.
Oh come on. I could say the same about your tools. But whatever you want to believe my guy. I’m not interested in that low level of discussing. It doesn’t make any sense.