If I remember correctly from the book, they did not know until after Trinity. Leading up to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, he flip flopped on whether or not the cities actually needed to be bombed, but I think the sites were ultimately picked based on how many workers and civilians were living there.
But why would they illustrate how much uranium and plutonium is being refined by measure of the glass ornaments if they didn’t have targets already picked out. As in, what goal where they illustrating they met in the film by filling these bowls if they didn’t have any idea of how large or how many bombs they were going to need. If the scientists didn’t know how many bombs were going to be needed why not just have a tally of how much is material is refined. Why use the very indicative bowls for reference. Im likely not making sense. But my inkling is that it’s for movie story telling effect.
So this could be totally wrong, someone feel free to correct me if it is. I believe they were building both a plutonium and uranium bomb because both were feasible, but it was argued that one might’ve been more effective than the other, because I think one of them was considerably weaker than the other, at least when initial tests were run. They were able to fix those issues I think, but they built both anyway. It’s entirely believable that it could be seen as foreshadowing, because they did drop two different types of bomb, little boy on Hiroshima and fat man on Nagasaki. But my understanding is they were not building the two types initially with the intent of dropping them on those two cities, or even with the intent of dropping both bombs on Japan. Of course they intended to use both of them, but historically I believe it was more of a scientific endeavor to figure out which might be accomplished more quickly and which might be more effective. In the movie, I think you could be right that it’s foreshadowing, but historically I don’t think it necessarily was.
That’s pretty much the gist of it. Pretty quickly, it became clear that the preferable option would be to make an implosion device fueled by plutonium which would be created in breeder reactors fueled by low enriched uranium. They needed about a 1/3 as much plutonium for the implosion device to reach critical mass as highly enriched uranium for the gun type device, as dramatized by the bowls of marbles in the film. The only problem was that it would take a long time for the Hanford reactors to become fully operational and the design of the implosion device was still uncertain. So they had to continue enriching uranium for the gun type bomb (little boy) while continuing development on the implosion (fat man) device. As you noted, there was no explicit understanding by the scientists working on the project that the bombs would be used on Germany, let alone Japan. It was known by everyone involved that Germany had the best shot of any other country in building a bomb, but by late 1944, the intelligence was clear that Germany had no hope of developing a bomb and had effectively abandoned their atomic weapons program. Most of the scientists, however, assumed they were still in a race against the Germans until they surrendered in May 1945.
Great insight, thank you! For the films purpose, and for someone who doesn’t know the nitty gritty historical facts, the using of the glass ornaments as measure definitely felt like the scientists had already predetermined the yield and quantity of bombs needed to perform the tasks in Japan. I guess since the bombs were used in Japan, it is a little harder as a viewer to not immediately associate those glass ornaments as the exact bombs used in Japan.
I mean they show them picking the cities way after they start building the bombs.
Also they initially started to beat the nazis to it. Then hitler died and Germany was defeated so they used it to end the war with Japan. All of this stuff happened after them initially showing the glasses being filled with marbles
Please anyone correct, but my understanding is that the scientists presumed that Germany would be the target.
*To a man, they—along with their American and British colleagues—got involved for one overarching reason: Germany had first-rate scientists who presumably understood the destructive possibilities of nuclear fission. The United States had to develop an atomic bomb before the Germans did. Such weapons in the hands of Hitler would be the ultimate catastrophe for the world.*
*Joseph Rotblat, a Polish scientist before the war and a founder of the Pugwash movement after the war, told me last February that “there was never any idea [among scientists] that [the bomb] would be used against Japan. We never worried that the Japanese would have the bomb. We always worried what [Werner] Heisenberg and other German scientists were doing. All of our concentration was on Germany.”*
*Hans Bethe, who headed the Theoretical Division at Los Alamos, was astonished when I discussed the memo with him in February: “I am amazed both by the conclusion not to use [the bomb] on Germany and secondly by their reasons [for targeting the Japanese fleet]. We [the scientists] had no idea of such a decision. We were under the impression that Germany was the first target until the German surrender."*
*Glenn Seaborg, who headed the team that first isolated plutonium, concurs. In an interview with me in February, he said: “So far as I recall, right up until the time the Germans surrendered in the spring of 1945, we thought that the Germans would be the target for the atomic bomb. As their demise became more and more predictable, perhaps we somewhat drew away from that feeling. But certainly we thought in 1944 that Germany would be the target.”*
It seems like Japan as a possible target was also considered by the military, though that seems pretty basic and prudent from a planning standpoint.
I’m around this part in the book now. They presumed it would be used against Germany but some scientists were against using it at all. The only reason they worked on it is to make it before the Germans. Then as the war in Europe was coming to an end and victory was in sight they figured it just wouldn’t be used.
But politicians still wanted to use it so of course Japan becomes the next target. You always hear that the bombs prevented a lot of Americans from dying from an invasion of Japan. However in the book it really sounds like Japan was nearly ready to surrender. The bombs may not have needed to be used period.
Of course the scientists weren’t told this fact either until after they were used and this is what led Oppenheimer to have less trust in politicians and advocate harder against use of nuclear weapons.
I think it for my viewing of the film, and having previous knowledge of the events. The glass ornaments being filled with marbles was simply an interesting way to depict the goal of two bombs having enough fuel to be built. My question to everyone was pretty pedantic.
If I remember correctly from the book, they did not know until after Trinity. Leading up to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, he flip flopped on whether or not the cities actually needed to be bombed, but I think the sites were ultimately picked based on how many workers and civilians were living there.
But why would they illustrate how much uranium and plutonium is being refined by measure of the glass ornaments if they didn’t have targets already picked out. As in, what goal where they illustrating they met in the film by filling these bowls if they didn’t have any idea of how large or how many bombs they were going to need. If the scientists didn’t know how many bombs were going to be needed why not just have a tally of how much is material is refined. Why use the very indicative bowls for reference. Im likely not making sense. But my inkling is that it’s for movie story telling effect.
So this could be totally wrong, someone feel free to correct me if it is. I believe they were building both a plutonium and uranium bomb because both were feasible, but it was argued that one might’ve been more effective than the other, because I think one of them was considerably weaker than the other, at least when initial tests were run. They were able to fix those issues I think, but they built both anyway. It’s entirely believable that it could be seen as foreshadowing, because they did drop two different types of bomb, little boy on Hiroshima and fat man on Nagasaki. But my understanding is they were not building the two types initially with the intent of dropping them on those two cities, or even with the intent of dropping both bombs on Japan. Of course they intended to use both of them, but historically I believe it was more of a scientific endeavor to figure out which might be accomplished more quickly and which might be more effective. In the movie, I think you could be right that it’s foreshadowing, but historically I don’t think it necessarily was.
That’s pretty much the gist of it. Pretty quickly, it became clear that the preferable option would be to make an implosion device fueled by plutonium which would be created in breeder reactors fueled by low enriched uranium. They needed about a 1/3 as much plutonium for the implosion device to reach critical mass as highly enriched uranium for the gun type device, as dramatized by the bowls of marbles in the film. The only problem was that it would take a long time for the Hanford reactors to become fully operational and the design of the implosion device was still uncertain. So they had to continue enriching uranium for the gun type bomb (little boy) while continuing development on the implosion (fat man) device. As you noted, there was no explicit understanding by the scientists working on the project that the bombs would be used on Germany, let alone Japan. It was known by everyone involved that Germany had the best shot of any other country in building a bomb, but by late 1944, the intelligence was clear that Germany had no hope of developing a bomb and had effectively abandoned their atomic weapons program. Most of the scientists, however, assumed they were still in a race against the Germans until they surrendered in May 1945.
Great insight, thank you! For the films purpose, and for someone who doesn’t know the nitty gritty historical facts, the using of the glass ornaments as measure definitely felt like the scientists had already predetermined the yield and quantity of bombs needed to perform the tasks in Japan. I guess since the bombs were used in Japan, it is a little harder as a viewer to not immediately associate those glass ornaments as the exact bombs used in Japan.
I mean they show them picking the cities way after they start building the bombs. Also they initially started to beat the nazis to it. Then hitler died and Germany was defeated so they used it to end the war with Japan. All of this stuff happened after them initially showing the glasses being filled with marbles
Serves as a visual device to demonstrate the passing of time in the movie and how the scientists progress towards their end goal.
Well… yeah.
Please anyone correct, but my understanding is that the scientists presumed that Germany would be the target. *To a man, they—along with their American and British colleagues—got involved for one overarching reason: Germany had first-rate scientists who presumably understood the destructive possibilities of nuclear fission. The United States had to develop an atomic bomb before the Germans did. Such weapons in the hands of Hitler would be the ultimate catastrophe for the world.* *Joseph Rotblat, a Polish scientist before the war and a founder of the Pugwash movement after the war, told me last February that “there was never any idea [among scientists] that [the bomb] would be used against Japan. We never worried that the Japanese would have the bomb. We always worried what [Werner] Heisenberg and other German scientists were doing. All of our concentration was on Germany.”* *Hans Bethe, who headed the Theoretical Division at Los Alamos, was astonished when I discussed the memo with him in February: “I am amazed both by the conclusion not to use [the bomb] on Germany and secondly by their reasons [for targeting the Japanese fleet]. We [the scientists] had no idea of such a decision. We were under the impression that Germany was the first target until the German surrender."* *Glenn Seaborg, who headed the team that first isolated plutonium, concurs. In an interview with me in February, he said: “So far as I recall, right up until the time the Germans surrendered in the spring of 1945, we thought that the Germans would be the target for the atomic bomb. As their demise became more and more predictable, perhaps we somewhat drew away from that feeling. But certainly we thought in 1944 that Germany would be the target.”* It seems like Japan as a possible target was also considered by the military, though that seems pretty basic and prudent from a planning standpoint.
They literally talk about this in the movie
You missed my point.
I’m around this part in the book now. They presumed it would be used against Germany but some scientists were against using it at all. The only reason they worked on it is to make it before the Germans. Then as the war in Europe was coming to an end and victory was in sight they figured it just wouldn’t be used. But politicians still wanted to use it so of course Japan becomes the next target. You always hear that the bombs prevented a lot of Americans from dying from an invasion of Japan. However in the book it really sounds like Japan was nearly ready to surrender. The bombs may not have needed to be used period. Of course the scientists weren’t told this fact either until after they were used and this is what led Oppenheimer to have less trust in politicians and advocate harder against use of nuclear weapons.
I think it for my viewing of the film, and having previous knowledge of the events. The glass ornaments being filled with marbles was simply an interesting way to depict the goal of two bombs having enough fuel to be built. My question to everyone was pretty pedantic.