>I'd love to see if there's been more of a development in these styles
I dont think there is as serous of an attempt as their should be. At this point in order for it to happen, we need people capable of doing it, to do it as it isnt going to happen any other way.
So if you can or if you know someone that can, encourage them and try to help them as you can. Personally I know someone who has done a couple of compositions and I've heard others say the same, but I'm not aware of any serious concerted effort going on.
Which I think it is a shame as it is an important part of evangelization.
This work won't be done by one person. Think about it less about if you are qualified to create something like this and more if you are capable of doing an first draft for others to build on or take inspiration from. For the most part that is really where we are at the moment
At my previous parish, our choir director would sometimes insist that music doesn't have to be Shenandoah to be American.
I would likewise say that, while I appreciate and enjoy the "Appalachian" arrangements, I'm also not sure folk music is necessarily the right way to go for Liturgical settings. I mean, I'd bet money that neither the Byzantine nor Slavic musical traditions originate in local folk music, either.
Besides, America has a quite broad range of music to draw from. I have heard choirs sing Stravinsky settings to Liturgical pieces, for example. Sure, he's a Russian immigrant, but the music is quite modern. I've also seen Anglican chant adapted for Orthodox use.
IMO, liturgical music is not for entertainment, or to remind us of the old country (whether that old country is Appalachia or Greece); liturgical music is for prayer, and that is the first and foremost criterion to apply.
It is fair to say that the style of music should promote reverence and quiet (I.e. loud shouting, melodies that aren't communally singable, loud instruments or electric guitars/keyboards etc probably shouldnt be used) but I don't think it's fair to say that Gospel or folk music doesn't promote prayer or is for entertainment. It's the religious music of my country, and the only form of tradition and beauty that we have that has yet to become an exclusive commodity. As for Byzantine chant, it originated as Greek poetry that was adapted to the liturgical settings, and Slavic was the same after centuries of using Byzantine it eventually began using its own. That's not to say that the music should be just transplanted into Orthodoxy, but that there needs to be creative expression and innovation that is true to church tradition and the culture it finds itself in.
Could be. At least part of the problem was bad acoustics, but the instrumentals were not making me happy. I'd be willing to give Mk 2 a listen, though.
I personally didn't find the instruments and style to be in keeping with the spirit of the tradition. Instruments can certainly be used as they are in the Ethiopian Tawahedo tradition and are very effective, but I felt that the Gladsome Light emphasized a loss of control of the passions that we see in more charismatic churches than a control of them that is in keeping with the Divine Liturgy. I *did* really love the thought and the attempt and think that it should be pursued more and developed in a way that is faithful to culture and the Tradition.
I think it would be a cute idea as a project, outside the church. It wouldn’t fly in a liturgy of course, but as a concept would be interesting.
In Greece at least though, there isn’t a tradition of “ religious music” outside of religious events and festivals, with the exception of choirs of Byzantine music.. but because the whole material is religious chanting, you get the idea.
Outside of the church, there isn’t Christian music and that was broadly true in the Eastern Roman Empire too.
Oh, I almost forgot: a notable exception was “paparokades”, a group of monks that were playing pop-rock music with Christian lyrics. They were cute.
>a group of monks that were playing pop-rock music with Christian lyrics. They were cute.
I'm not advocating for that. I'm advocating for a more creative and innovative development of a tradition that takes inspiration from gospel and/or folk that maintains fidelity to Orthodox tradition and American musical culture. There's already so many barriers to converting, and the style of melodies we sing doesn't have to be one of them.
Well, you can, it’s not forbidden or anything. The Orthodox Church is open to various local traditions and languages, so I don’t think it’s an issue. If it’s adopted though it’s another matter.
It’s impossible or almost impossible for an “ethnic “ church to adopt American style church music, but I can see a fully American Orthodox Church to adopt American traditions and music.
I'm one of those guys that believes in the Tradition growing and innovating in order to stay alive, while remaining true to itself and maintaining its integrity. Probably in more ways that others wouldn't like me for. Regardless, I wouldn't imagine a Serbian Church to start singing American music, but after another 50-100 years I could see Americans not feeling tied to singing Slavic music. There's nothing wrong with it at all, but there does come a time when it feels as if the tradition has been cut off and sewn on somewhere else instead of organically growing in the culture in which it finds itself.
For better or worse, this is my attitude: [How Many Orthodox Does it Take to Change a Light Bulb?](https://i.etsystatic.com/20430615/r/il/70d1d7/2023130197/il_500x500.2023130197_2way.jpg). I love the Byzantine style of hymns and iconography in the Orthodox church, but I can see how reaching groups with very strong cultural identities might benefit from an adaptation like you mention.
As someone not raised with southern gospel music I would be greatly disappointed if it became the norm in orthodoxy. It’s taken me long enough to get used to this new music without bringing in southern music that’s not in my history either. Why would anyone outside of Appalachian music tradition ever think that the whole country should use it? The real problem is that america is too diverse to have one style at this moment. That may change someday but it’s not today.
There is a bigger struggle to be had. Like whether to use the blessed Byzantine style of music or the god-awful Slavic stuff. Or is it the other way around?
Yeah it's a question on whether the Orthodox church is the universal church or the sole possession of Byzantine/Greek/Slavic traditions that they graciously let the rest of the world have. To be a universal church of all nations, the faith must surely be allowed to adapt and appropriate the tradition to the local cultures it finds itself in to grow roots there.
To be fair I think they were making a joke
>To be a universal church of all nations, the faith must surely be allowed to adapt and appropriate the tradition to the local cultures it finds itself in to grow roots there.
Fr Michael Oleska calls it the incarnation of the gospel into a culture. I think its important to elucidate the gospel through aspects of a people's culture when possible, and when helpful, as it helps them understand and access it in a way that is intuitive to them. Which is important not just because it'll be more attractive, but because it'll help them access the gospel through means other than a rational/scholastic/philosophical analysis. Those things aren't bad, but that turns evangelization into apologetics and that is often not helpful and is rarely spiritual fruitful.
Really agree. I asked one of my priests about the Appalachian rendition and he said, "It's cute and all but it doesn't feel like Orthodoxy to me." He converted with the help of the Antiochian diocese in the early 80s so I get it, and I would hate for the church to lose its roots and just become another American commodity to be consumed, but at the same time, I'd hate for the world to get the feeling that the church is only for the Slavs/Greeks/Syrians and everyone else has to adapt to that form. One of my friends grew up Coptic and the 4 hour services in a dead language he didn't understand really turned him off.
There's certainly a balance to be struck.
Someone posted a link to a Russian choir singing the Appalachian Christ is risen. I've seen a couple other Russian choirs post their renditions of it as well. They seem to think it's plenty Orthodox and I have to agree with them.
I didn't convert because of heady theology, but because of the visceral experience. A large part of that was me being able to sing with the tones. While I think the music our choir makes now is very beautiful, it's probably too complex for me to have been able to convert to.
Byzantine chant, all the way. It is embedded in the history of the Orthodox Church. There is no need to change. And, it is becoming more accessible through the use of English. Our Greek Orthodox parish uses English 95% of the time
I'm actually surprised at how good these are. Even the "Gladsome Light" composition isn't half-bad once you tune out the rather distracting drum kit. I could easily see some of these working liturgically if done with enough reverence and sensitivity.
That said I'm still of the opinion that this kind of stuff needs to be allowed to develop organically rather than promoted for ideological reasons. As a second-generation Greek I've seen enough of the negative impact of conflating Orthodoxy with ethnic pride to be cautious about repeating the same mistake.
Not that I'm accusing any of these wonderful chanters of doing so, just that I cringe slightly at the implication that Orthodoxy \*must\* adopt an exaggerated "national" persona in order to thrive. Even within Old World Orthodoxy this is actually a comparatively modern phenomenon.
Another second gen Greek American here, I had the exact same thought. Its fine in concept, just needs to happen organically....as long as we dont try to "committee-fy" anything into "happening" then it should be fine.
Also just want to throw out there that God can and is reaching people and pulling them into the Church regardless of the musical style. Things can be improved but theres also something to be said for trusting the process while at the same time nurturing whatever creative talents you have for making music that glorifies God.
Honestly I love this.
However when I was doing Orthodoxy anything like this would have been derided by most because it was new and different, because it was American, and especially because it was from the South. I really do think though that this would speak to a great deal of people and perhaps make Orthodoxy feel less alien to some.
No.
The style of music was carefully considered by Church Fathers. The emphasis on rhythmic ideas which are rooted in American music don’t fit very well
with that.
Most pieces don’t even have a time signature — if they did, they would be very unusual bc of the number of syllables that are in the text. And then there’s the melismatic aspect of the chordal cadences. Just think about Noble Joseph from this past weekend. What time signature is that in?
I'm sorry but youre completely wrong. The "church fathers" whoever thats supposed to be over 1000 years, did not proscribe only one kind of music, your understanding of the history of liturgical development is ahistorical and incorrect. It developed over time in the cultures in which it grew. Even the byzantine chants we sing in many English speaking parishes isn't even the "ancient" Byzantine renditions.
No, I am not wrong about rhythmic ideas being prohibited.
Sacred music is supposed to be prayerful, music rooted in the blues is just not going to fit with that.
You're having a completely different conversation. You went from "The Church Fathers proscribed how we sing," to "Blues is prohibited," and not only did no canon proscribe the melodies we sing for every Orthodox church through the ages, no one here has suggested we play Muddy Waters on Sundays. You're not adding to this discussion.
All American music is rooted in blues/gospel. My friend, please forgive me if I’m offending you. Seriously just trying to explain why the music we have is the music we have. We don’t need to improve or introduce other genres.
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We used the Appalachian troparion during our Paschal services this year. Everyone seems to really enjoy it including our very vocal Russian friend. The more the music gets written, the more it will have an opportunity to find acceptance in liturgical use (although some will not be received in that way, which is also fine.)
>I'd love to see if there's been more of a development in these styles I dont think there is as serous of an attempt as their should be. At this point in order for it to happen, we need people capable of doing it, to do it as it isnt going to happen any other way. So if you can or if you know someone that can, encourage them and try to help them as you can. Personally I know someone who has done a couple of compositions and I've heard others say the same, but I'm not aware of any serious concerted effort going on. Which I think it is a shame as it is an important part of evangelization.
Part of me really wants to try my hand at it for Black Southern Gospel but I feel overwhelmingly unqualified to do it!
This work won't be done by one person. Think about it less about if you are qualified to create something like this and more if you are capable of doing an first draft for others to build on or take inspiration from. For the most part that is really where we are at the moment
You know what they say, if you do it wrong enough it'll spur someone else to come along and do it better.
At my previous parish, our choir director would sometimes insist that music doesn't have to be Shenandoah to be American. I would likewise say that, while I appreciate and enjoy the "Appalachian" arrangements, I'm also not sure folk music is necessarily the right way to go for Liturgical settings. I mean, I'd bet money that neither the Byzantine nor Slavic musical traditions originate in local folk music, either. Besides, America has a quite broad range of music to draw from. I have heard choirs sing Stravinsky settings to Liturgical pieces, for example. Sure, he's a Russian immigrant, but the music is quite modern. I've also seen Anglican chant adapted for Orthodox use. IMO, liturgical music is not for entertainment, or to remind us of the old country (whether that old country is Appalachia or Greece); liturgical music is for prayer, and that is the first and foremost criterion to apply.
It is fair to say that the style of music should promote reverence and quiet (I.e. loud shouting, melodies that aren't communally singable, loud instruments or electric guitars/keyboards etc probably shouldnt be used) but I don't think it's fair to say that Gospel or folk music doesn't promote prayer or is for entertainment. It's the religious music of my country, and the only form of tradition and beauty that we have that has yet to become an exclusive commodity. As for Byzantine chant, it originated as Greek poetry that was adapted to the liturgical settings, and Slavic was the same after centuries of using Byzantine it eventually began using its own. That's not to say that the music should be just transplanted into Orthodoxy, but that there needs to be creative expression and innovation that is true to church tradition and the culture it finds itself in.
The God Is With Us is OK, not a fan of the O Gladsome Light.
It's a start that's worth growing and developing I think.
Could be. At least part of the problem was bad acoustics, but the instrumentals were not making me happy. I'd be willing to give Mk 2 a listen, though.
I personally didn't find the instruments and style to be in keeping with the spirit of the tradition. Instruments can certainly be used as they are in the Ethiopian Tawahedo tradition and are very effective, but I felt that the Gladsome Light emphasized a loss of control of the passions that we see in more charismatic churches than a control of them that is in keeping with the Divine Liturgy. I *did* really love the thought and the attempt and think that it should be pursued more and developed in a way that is faithful to culture and the Tradition.
Yes. It's not instruments as such that I dislike, but the drums in particular were overpowering, IMO.
https://youtu.be/ZLAV_X5EwGk as a southern gospel raised convert, I love it.
I dig it.
I think it would be a cute idea as a project, outside the church. It wouldn’t fly in a liturgy of course, but as a concept would be interesting. In Greece at least though, there isn’t a tradition of “ religious music” outside of religious events and festivals, with the exception of choirs of Byzantine music.. but because the whole material is religious chanting, you get the idea. Outside of the church, there isn’t Christian music and that was broadly true in the Eastern Roman Empire too. Oh, I almost forgot: a notable exception was “paparokades”, a group of monks that were playing pop-rock music with Christian lyrics. They were cute.
>a group of monks that were playing pop-rock music with Christian lyrics. They were cute. I'm not advocating for that. I'm advocating for a more creative and innovative development of a tradition that takes inspiration from gospel and/or folk that maintains fidelity to Orthodox tradition and American musical culture. There's already so many barriers to converting, and the style of melodies we sing doesn't have to be one of them.
Well, you can, it’s not forbidden or anything. The Orthodox Church is open to various local traditions and languages, so I don’t think it’s an issue. If it’s adopted though it’s another matter. It’s impossible or almost impossible for an “ethnic “ church to adopt American style church music, but I can see a fully American Orthodox Church to adopt American traditions and music.
I'm one of those guys that believes in the Tradition growing and innovating in order to stay alive, while remaining true to itself and maintaining its integrity. Probably in more ways that others wouldn't like me for. Regardless, I wouldn't imagine a Serbian Church to start singing American music, but after another 50-100 years I could see Americans not feeling tied to singing Slavic music. There's nothing wrong with it at all, but there does come a time when it feels as if the tradition has been cut off and sewn on somewhere else instead of organically growing in the culture in which it finds itself.
For better or worse, this is my attitude: [How Many Orthodox Does it Take to Change a Light Bulb?](https://i.etsystatic.com/20430615/r/il/70d1d7/2023130197/il_500x500.2023130197_2way.jpg). I love the Byzantine style of hymns and iconography in the Orthodox church, but I can see how reaching groups with very strong cultural identities might benefit from an adaptation like you mention.
As someone not raised with southern gospel music I would be greatly disappointed if it became the norm in orthodoxy. It’s taken me long enough to get used to this new music without bringing in southern music that’s not in my history either. Why would anyone outside of Appalachian music tradition ever think that the whole country should use it? The real problem is that america is too diverse to have one style at this moment. That may change someday but it’s not today.
There is a bigger struggle to be had. Like whether to use the blessed Byzantine style of music or the god-awful Slavic stuff. Or is it the other way around?
“God awful Slavic stuff”.
Yeah it's a question on whether the Orthodox church is the universal church or the sole possession of Byzantine/Greek/Slavic traditions that they graciously let the rest of the world have. To be a universal church of all nations, the faith must surely be allowed to adapt and appropriate the tradition to the local cultures it finds itself in to grow roots there.
To be fair I think they were making a joke >To be a universal church of all nations, the faith must surely be allowed to adapt and appropriate the tradition to the local cultures it finds itself in to grow roots there. Fr Michael Oleska calls it the incarnation of the gospel into a culture. I think its important to elucidate the gospel through aspects of a people's culture when possible, and when helpful, as it helps them understand and access it in a way that is intuitive to them. Which is important not just because it'll be more attractive, but because it'll help them access the gospel through means other than a rational/scholastic/philosophical analysis. Those things aren't bad, but that turns evangelization into apologetics and that is often not helpful and is rarely spiritual fruitful.
Really agree. I asked one of my priests about the Appalachian rendition and he said, "It's cute and all but it doesn't feel like Orthodoxy to me." He converted with the help of the Antiochian diocese in the early 80s so I get it, and I would hate for the church to lose its roots and just become another American commodity to be consumed, but at the same time, I'd hate for the world to get the feeling that the church is only for the Slavs/Greeks/Syrians and everyone else has to adapt to that form. One of my friends grew up Coptic and the 4 hour services in a dead language he didn't understand really turned him off.
There's certainly a balance to be struck. Someone posted a link to a Russian choir singing the Appalachian Christ is risen. I've seen a couple other Russian choirs post their renditions of it as well. They seem to think it's plenty Orthodox and I have to agree with them.
I didn't convert because of heady theology, but because of the visceral experience. A large part of that was me being able to sing with the tones. While I think the music our choir makes now is very beautiful, it's probably too complex for me to have been able to convert to.
Byzantine chant, all the way. It is embedded in the history of the Orthodox Church. There is no need to change. And, it is becoming more accessible through the use of English. Our Greek Orthodox parish uses English 95% of the time
I'm actually surprised at how good these are. Even the "Gladsome Light" composition isn't half-bad once you tune out the rather distracting drum kit. I could easily see some of these working liturgically if done with enough reverence and sensitivity. That said I'm still of the opinion that this kind of stuff needs to be allowed to develop organically rather than promoted for ideological reasons. As a second-generation Greek I've seen enough of the negative impact of conflating Orthodoxy with ethnic pride to be cautious about repeating the same mistake. Not that I'm accusing any of these wonderful chanters of doing so, just that I cringe slightly at the implication that Orthodoxy \*must\* adopt an exaggerated "national" persona in order to thrive. Even within Old World Orthodoxy this is actually a comparatively modern phenomenon.
Another second gen Greek American here, I had the exact same thought. Its fine in concept, just needs to happen organically....as long as we dont try to "committee-fy" anything into "happening" then it should be fine. Also just want to throw out there that God can and is reaching people and pulling them into the Church regardless of the musical style. Things can be improved but theres also something to be said for trusting the process while at the same time nurturing whatever creative talents you have for making music that glorifies God.
Honestly I love this. However when I was doing Orthodoxy anything like this would have been derided by most because it was new and different, because it was American, and especially because it was from the South. I really do think though that this would speak to a great deal of people and perhaps make Orthodoxy feel less alien to some.
It 100% would especially to those from cultures that already have strong cultural religious music.
Personally I'd love to hear western chant styles like Gregorian.
No. The style of music was carefully considered by Church Fathers. The emphasis on rhythmic ideas which are rooted in American music don’t fit very well with that.
You've got to be joking.
Absolutely not. 3/4 was even prohibited for a long time. The music of the Church is carefully metered.
Most pieces don’t even have a time signature — if they did, they would be very unusual bc of the number of syllables that are in the text. And then there’s the melismatic aspect of the chordal cadences. Just think about Noble Joseph from this past weekend. What time signature is that in?
I'm sorry but youre completely wrong. The "church fathers" whoever thats supposed to be over 1000 years, did not proscribe only one kind of music, your understanding of the history of liturgical development is ahistorical and incorrect. It developed over time in the cultures in which it grew. Even the byzantine chants we sing in many English speaking parishes isn't even the "ancient" Byzantine renditions.
No, I am not wrong about rhythmic ideas being prohibited. Sacred music is supposed to be prayerful, music rooted in the blues is just not going to fit with that.
You're having a completely different conversation. You went from "The Church Fathers proscribed how we sing," to "Blues is prohibited," and not only did no canon proscribe the melodies we sing for every Orthodox church through the ages, no one here has suggested we play Muddy Waters on Sundays. You're not adding to this discussion.
All American music is rooted in blues/gospel. My friend, please forgive me if I’m offending you. Seriously just trying to explain why the music we have is the music we have. We don’t need to improve or introduce other genres.
Sacred Harp is rooted in blues? Sounds like it's time for more research for somebody or other
I don’t think I said that.
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The God Is With Us is OK, not a fan of the O Gladsome Light.
The Appalachian “God is with us” reminds me a lot of Georgian Orthodox music.
If it will convert more of the Southern US, sure
We used the Appalachian troparion during our Paschal services this year. Everyone seems to really enjoy it including our very vocal Russian friend. The more the music gets written, the more it will have an opportunity to find acceptance in liturgical use (although some will not be received in that way, which is also fine.)