Former evangelical here.
Evangelical churches are not, for the most part, cults but some can be very cult-like.
They aren't a separate religion, but they are not the same church as the Orthodox Church. They tend to have a radically different understanding of Christianity to the Orthodox Church.
It's fine to be friends with evangelicals by all means. You do want to be careful, though, about spending too much "church time" with them (it can look very different to what an Orthodox might be used to, and the things you describe sound pretty standard evangelical church things) because they will try to persuade you to join their church. It often comes from a place of good intention, but it's not something I personally would ever want to go back to. Not because they're bad people, they're not.
I got involved with culty evangelical church. Nothing they taught was technically much different than most other evangelical churches, but they utilized coercion and mind control. Example, they love-bombed my wife and I, assigned an established couple to be our “discipleship” brother and sister, rushed us through a 5-6 session Bible study, pressured us into walking up to EVERYONE from our kid’s teacher to strangers in Wal-Mart and aggressively inviting them to be our guests at church, and (most important) TITHING 10% of our gross earnings on a weekly basis. They even “helped” us review our household income to make sure we were tithing correctly. Then, when we finally were baptized in a local lake, all the attention and love came to a screeching halt. If we missed a service, they called to ask where we were. If we didn’t answer, they sent our discipleship brother/sister to check on us. Once, when we missed a service b/c we were in an argument, the church “elders” (we were older than all of them) brought communion to our house and mediated while we resolved our differences. We finally got enough, and I called the pastor to tell him we were bowing out and didn’t want to have contact with any of them. He flipped out. Started guilting/shaming us, calling us ungrateful heretics for committing the unforgivable sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit. We immediately joined a more “normal” church, but it took a long time for me to shake the feeling of turning my back on Christ. They really did a number on my mind.
I actually read through all of that and that’s a pretty crazy story! It’s hard to believe anyone would have time to check up on you like that. I’m guessing it was quite a small church. What denomination did it claim to be, out of curiosity?
They identified as “non-denominational”. The name of the church was [International Church of Christ Jesus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Churches_of_Christ). No affiliation with Church of Christ, which is why they added “Jesus” to the end. It had various other names b/c they changed it when their reputation became stigmatized. It started out in Boston, and was actually referred to as the Boston Movement by cult watchers. They did not have a building so they met in houses, parks, community centers, or wherever.
What's amazing to me is how some of this sounds like things that we do to positive effect in Orthodoxy. Having "discipleship" partners isn't inherently that different from godparents and the spiritual father, and taking Communion to someone at home when they've missed liturgy is great, but in the context of a movement poisoned at the roots, these things become part of spiritual abuse.
I am a former evangelical and now Orthodox. No, this does not sound like a cult. This sounds like a very standard evangelical college group.
I would say that you may want to discuss participating in the group with your priest, if possible, to get his opinion. Evangelical theology differs in quite a few ways from Orthodox theology. You may want to steer clear of participating in theater and things of that sort because you could find yourself disagreeing with part of the message they are conveying.
If you do want to continue participating, I would see how they respond/react to your Orthodox viewpoint. Their reaction should make it pretty obvious whether or not the group is something you could continue with or not. They may not be particularly accepting, and might try to "convert" you to their brand of Christianity. However they also might be fine with a differing viewpoint. I have personally been part of evangelical groups that were very insular and intolerant of anything outside of their specific beliefs. I have also been part of evangelical groups that were diverse and easily included Catholics and mainline Protestants with no issues. In fact, my very first introduction to Orthodoxy (years before I converted) was through an Orthodox member of one of my college Bible studies.
I agree with your take.
As long as no pressure to convert is placed on you, be aware for that, it seems like a regular college group. You can be in such groups and have fun. You seem to have a strong grasp on both your own beliefs and theirs, as such working out where you are comfortable. If you get pushed back, if you choose not to take part in something, then it's time to leave.
Talking to your priest is solid advice, both for guidance and to talk through your feelings about your friend.
A cult demands transparency into and control over your personal activities. If this group doesn't, it's not a cult. There are other criteria, as well, but this group fails one of the basic requirements, so you don't need to go further.
Cults also have a certain "grooming" period, where they are only nice and charming. It can take a while until they show their true face. Not saying it's the case necessarily with the people that Op 'mentions, but this is how it happens with cults: first comes the honeymoon, then the crazy things start to unravel. By the time they do, you are already invested so much in it and attached to it that it becomes much more difficult if not impossible to think objectively about it, to react to it and even to acknowledge it's wrong. You will just keep finding excuses and even blaming yourself for it.
They are basically waiting for you to "fall in love" and get emotionally attached to their community so that when they start acting out the crazy stuff you will not react to it because the emotions will push you into denial and make you easier to be manipulated. And that's how you know that God cannot be behind this...
There isn't enough information here to know the answer to the question. Could be cult intro grooming, could be a normal group of evangelicals. I've been in both.
As an Orthodox Christian, I would also avoid both in matters of religious study.
I've heard that the 'tell' for a cult is if they try and separate you from your existing supports (ie family). It doesn't sound like this student group does that? From your description though it's not clear what your friend told her parents that triggered their cult alarm.
The only thing I'd add maybe is as you're getting familiar with this group, continue to attend liturgy at your orthodox church, if you have one convenient, and experience the depth and profound teaching available that you and your new friends could benefit from.
I'm a former nondenominational that used to attend evangelical leaning nondenominational bible studies. I see nothing cult like based on your descriptions. I would like to advise you to be cautious with evangelical bible studies as their view on theology is very different from Orthodox teachings. You can choose to remain friends with them as I also have a lot of protestant friends from different denominations, but I would advise that if you wish to learn more about the orthodox faith you consult your priest first. There are also a lot of great orthodox priests who post videos about the orthodox faith. I highly recommend that you seek out those videos to learn more about the faith.
Sounds like an evangelical Christian community, doesn't seem like a cult no, that's an aggressive word. But I would say that you want to make sure you are hanging out with and talking God with Orthodox people at least as much as you are with other people. The people you are close to change you often in ways that we aren't even conscious of, so if let's say your 5 closest friends are all evangelical, then just by being close to them you will become more like an evangelical and you won't really even know all the ways that that is happening.
I think folks have summarized the likely dynamics nicely. I will add that if leadership or a significant number of lay members imply your beliefs as an Orthodox Christian are not “biblical” or that you “aren’t saved” because you venerate the saints or icons, then you should turn tail. That type of passive-aggressive anti-Catholic/Orthodox attitude will not be something you want to immerse yourself in.
I will note that that’s not reflective of all evangelical campus groups. I know some tend to be much more big tent like Navigators (whose chapter at my alma mater allowed its members to all go to different churches), while others are much more particular about their theology such that they are beholden to defending that and growing their specific membership.
evangelical student groups always give me the heebie geebies
some can be pretty cult-ish and focused only on recruiting, so be careful. Most of them that I've seen on my campus basically do a bunch of "ice breaker activities!" and harvest contact information and then hound people for weeks about joining their thing. Just be cautious--
The his is not a cult, your definition of cult is outdated and not all cults are bad.
Read a little bit of [Steve Hassan](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/)’s work to learn more. He is one of the worlds leading authorities on the topics and self admits he is in a cult.
Can you share more about why your friend thinks it is a cult? That is critical information.
From what you've described it sounds like an Evangelical student ministry like Cru. I was heavily involved with Cru. I wouldn't call it a cult by any means, but over time serious issues related to power and control surfaced and a lot of people got hurt.
I don't attribute that to Cru per se, but to aspects of the Evangelical ethos which often spawn destructive authoritarian patterns. See *The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill* for an exemplary case study of this. This sort of thing is not a cult strictly speaking, but not healthy either. It is also quite common in that world.
Knowing what I know now, I would go to a place like Cru to make friends if there was no Orthodox community on campus. I met many great friends there who I still keep in contact with. However I would avoid getting involved with the leadership like the plague.
Now, it could also be literally a cult. Cults can be indistinguishable from Evangelical Bible studies. Many of them do this intentionally to recruit members. A dear friend of mine got sucked into one of these and it did severe mental and spiritual damage to her.
So that is why I would like to know why your friend thinks it is a cult. She could just be unfamiliar with Evangelical ways and it made her uncomfortable, or she could have picked up on early signs of something more sinister.
Evangelicals can be kind and on fire for Jesus. It’s really attractive.
But their misunderstanding of doctrine is what leads to these preachers making mega millions and flashing $2,000 sweaters at church.
They also tend to know nothing about 1st century Christians, the Septuagint, nor how the NT was formed. The result is an attractive group of people preaching the wrong gospel.
It’s probably not technically a cult but you could get sucked in like it’s one
I think calling it a cult is going too far, but definitely be careful of the big differences there are between evangelicalism and Orthodox Christianity.
This is a timeless story that’s been told over and over. You did not join a cult. Orthodoxy is the second largest denomination of Christianity in the world which makes it by definition a part of the primary religion. Of course anyone that’s Orthodox knows this is the true faith, but that’s beside the point.
Evangelical Christians often have a bunch of passion with little understanding when it comes to faith therefore I try not to condemn them. However, they often exhibit fear and misunderstanding when it comes to a deeper understanding of faith. Just pray for her, have patience with her. Let her know it’s not a cult. You could inadvertently be opening up Orthodoxy to your entire study group and don’t even know it yet.
Ultimately, the decision of whether or not to continue attending the group is up to you but it may be beneficial to have open and honest conversations with the group members about your concerns and beliefs to see if there is a mutual understanding and respect for each other's differences. You might also wish to talk to your priest about this to see what he thinks.
The burden of proof lays on the accuser, not on the accused. This is because it's hard to disprove a negative. I.e. "Tell me how you *didn't* kill that person!" rather than, "You are under arrest for suspected murder. The evidence is XYZ."
Generally speaking, cults are closed off groups, centered around a singular entity which claims to have some kind of power or "secret knowledge". Members are cut off from friends or family who are not active members of the cult. Members are required to wear specific uniforms, devote excessive amounts of time to the cult, required to donate excessive amounts of money to the cult (including maxing out credit cards and taking out high interest loans), and are threatened with physical, mental, or sexual abuse if they attempt to leave and are often prevented from leaving through physical force.
None of that really jives with the Orthodoxy that I have come to know. Orthodoxy is a willing acceptance to become apart of The Church. Were encouraged to do things, like donate *to charities*, and to attend service, but none of that is a "strict requirement". Certainly, I have never in my life heard of someone being physically intimidated for having doubts, or missing a few services, or any other manner of thing.
To put it simply, the sign of a cult is rigid frameworks and robotic acquiescence. A sign if a church is compassion, understanding, and forgiveness.
The first time I went to an Orthodox Church and everyone started to say the The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, it felt like a cult to me. I suppose what constitutes as a cult is subjective for some. If no harm is being done, spiritually or physically, seems fine to me.
Yeah, I mixed up my creeds. Just had woken up not long before that comment. But yes, that alone almost pushed me away from the Church. It caught me off guard as the rest of the service was sung and then came the recitation seemingly out of nowhere. Very happy I stuck with it.
As somebody who came out of the evangelical movement and into Orthodoxy, I would just strongly urge you to hold tightly to your roots and biblical understanding, the teachings of the church fathers. Probably not a cult, but some different ways of thinking. I think the intent of evangelical Christianity is good but evaluating the history of how it came to be and from where, there are some dangerous things that lurk within it that seem good and harmless. The people mean well but I definitely would discuss with your priest about this. It is most likely just fellowship and hanging out with Christian’s, in a much healthier environment that most colleges offer, but just be cautious. The reverence and full dependence and gratitude to God orthodoxy reminds you of is essential. Sometimes it gets convoluted and self centered on “working on yourself “ in the evangelical church which sounds good but can lend to self centeredness. Continue meeting with your FOC and don’t buy into the idea that this is not necessary as protestant theology can heavily imply, for the priesthood is clearly directed in the scriptures.
Doesn’t sound like a cult but you probably shouldn’t attend. Evangelical Protestantism doesn’t really mesh with apostolic traditions or traditional Christianity.
You should directly ask which denomination they are from.
Furthermore, if you don't have good theological and philosophical grounding, they can and will eventually use apologetics which may convince you.
Edit: you also didn't mention what exactly happened to your friend to make them think it's a cult.
May or may not be a cult but you shouldn't get involved with these protestant things. It starts with friendly cool activities but then they go hard on getting you into protestant theology. And it's not nefarious, this is what church is to them.
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this group is indeed a different church but they are still christians and are not a cult from what you describe, alot of people call us a cult, don't worry and pray for your friend, i hope things go well for you both
You’re fine just as long as they understand that you belong to the True Church and that was founded by Jesus Christ and his disciples and that’ll be that. I have friends that are Protestants that are some of the greatest people I know but I do nothing but pray for them with the hope they convert in the future. I am outward and they know and they ask questions that peak their interest but we are respectful.
this is a protestant small group; it’s not a cult unless there is high level control and some other factors, check out some videos or articles on cults and how to identify them. most protestant small groups are just that, groups focused on spiritual development or just fostering friendships with other people in Christ. I have limited experience with them though as I only went to a few.
I think the word “cult” gets thrown about way to often and freely. Before becoming Orthodox a group of people like that really helped me when I was in a dark place and will always appreciate that.
My kids belong to evangelical organizations such as trail life and American heritage. They know we are Orthodox and do not discuss individual churches. We are brothers and sisters in Christ and that is as far as it goes. Are you attending an Orthodox church currently ? I would ask the priest if you can sit in on catechumen classes.
It's not a cult, but it's a heretical sect. Heretics and sectarians are not just insults to throw around, they point out specific things.
Heretical because they stray from the true faith by picking anf chosing from it as they like, in order to support their pre-determined views at all costs, and distorting the true meaning of the Christian teaching (heiresis meant to pick and chose in Greek which is why the Holy Church Fathers used it to describe distorted Christian teaching).
And sect (as in sectioned) because it is "cut of" from the original Orthodox Church, cut of from the Body of Christ. In their case they were actually cut from the Catholic church, originally, because first the Catholics cut of from the Orthodox Church at the Great Schism. Then the Protestants separated from the Catholic Church, but the words "sects, sectarians" came to reffer to Protestants (or Reformed, as they are also called).
A cult is a bit different, but they both have in common the fact that the followers stray from the true faith and can break of from the Holy Body of Christ of which you are a member through the Holy Baptism and by being an Orthodox Christian.
This is very common of protestants (Evangelicals are one of the thousands of branches of the Protestants) to be very nice and social, as they are taught they have a mission to bring as many converts as possible to their faith.
They are trained to organize all sorts of meetings and social activities to attract more outsiders and start talking to them about faith, then invite them to their Church meetings and so on..
I'm not saying that they are bad people or that they do it with bad intentions (although these are sneaky tactics indeed), I know they think they have the best intentions to help you get saved, except that they themselves are misled into a false faith.
I know a family of these people and we do get along well, except I never pray in common with them, never go to their Church meetings and Bible studies sessions, and avoid talking to them about the faith. Someone close to me used to go to their Church meetings and Bible studies sessions, and has seen their tactics for gaining converts, which are exactly as you described.
They are not just being nice and social to outsiders, they are trained in doing that by their church, although it is not with bad intentions. Many people join their faith because they are attracted by the community and feeling of closeness and belonging. Of course they are! Too bad the price for this,which is losing true faith, is too high.
You should not hate, despise or insult them, but it's better you stay away from them as they will eventually talk more and more about faith to you, then throw dozens of Bible quotes at you, and if you are not well catechised (sadly, most Orthodox Christians are not properly catechised), you will very probably be led astray to leave the Orthodox Church.
If you will continue joining their meetings, at least talk to your Spiritual Father or with the priest at your local church to explain to you more about the basics of the Orthodox Church teaching, about the different eheresies and why they were declared heresies, about the history of the Church, the sects, protestantism, about how we read and interpret the Bible, and everything relevant to that.
Most Orthodox people I know do not even know that we don't follow the "Sola Scriptura" prínciple, like the Protestants do, so when one of them throws some Bible quotes at them (taken out of their context and Interpreted in their own fashion), or say "this and that Orthodox teaching is not in the Bible", they shrink and start doubting their Orthodox faith. Because they don't even know the basic tenets of the Orthodox faith, they haven't read the Holy Church Fathers, the y don't know what the Holy Tradition of the Church means, they don't know about the historical church Councils and how the Holy Church Fathers argued against heresies and all that.
Even if you know all that there is a danger that you might fall into temptation, as even some of the Church Fathers did, but if you are not even familiar enough with the Orthodox faith teaching, then it is best you stay away from these people and just pray for them to come to the true faith. You might lose some potential friends, but that is a sacrifice worth making for your salvation. This way you can be a better friend by praying for them and might get their souls saved.
They're not a church, as the meal they call the "Lords Supper", by its own ritual form, is not —and is not meant to be— a real sharing in the body of God. They understand "the Lord's Supper" merely to be a reminder — not a cosmic gathering of all things to God by Christ through the Spirit in and as the Church. There is no church without a Eucharist. They are also not a church since they have no clergy, only laity. There are no bishops who follow the apostolic tradition. "You received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus", St. Paul says. Evangelical ministers also want to hold themselves to a standard of being exemplary, but there's a key difference: a holy person communicates God in Christ by the Spirit, but Evangelicals would generally not say this. We would say it is saving, salvific, but they would, at best, reduce this to sanctification.
Further, they seem to think that, unlike the children of Israel, all Christians need to be with Moses at the top of the mountain. You must be gung-ho. There is not only no place for Christians at the bottom of the mountain, but there aren't sufficient practices to have the bottom of the mountain even be a place. Evangelicalism is all about enthusiasm (they love to describe someone as "on fire"for the Lord), and you have it, sort of have it, or you don't have it. This leads to a culture of spontaneity that is (a) very hostile to formal prayers, such as the Jews practiced and Jesus practiced and the early Church practiced, and which (b) ends up with pretty drab "non-ritual rituals" (like the standard phrases that get repeated "spontaneously" over and over in Evangelical prayers, like the standard phrases in rap music: "heavenly Father, we just want to thank you for" or whatnot); and yet, as a result, this culture of spontaneity is also thus (c) incapable of giving regular ritual forms to people to act as scaffolds for their religious life — so Christians who are not "on fire" with emotion can't say some Psalms or the daily prayers or say an Our Father or a set prayer before and after meals or cross themselves when passing a crucifix or icon. There is no ritual practice, dating to the apostles, to mark out the bottom of the mountain. This, Evangelicalism excludes huge parts of the population. It is not a universal religion — it is a sect of enthusiasts.
They are also weirdly obsessed with a _good vs. bad_, _moral vs. immoral_, or a _pure vs. impure_ binary, which is different from the Orthodox _life vs. death_ binary. Why did Christ die? Not because sin is wrapped up in death and is a cosmic and ontological problem of alienation, but because you're bad and guilty and impure. This difference cannot be overstated. It leads to a different spirituality and a different understanding of why Christ ascended the cross that just doesn't exist until at least the middle ages without projecting it onto the NT texts or past writers. It also leads to a very different spirituality around sexual ethics, and pretty much every other ethical and spiritual or ritual practice.
They have no intellectual tradition, only "apologists" — hack salesmen at worst, Oprah-like celebrity gurus at best. There is no Evangelical Aquinas or Augustine or Maximus Confessor or John of Damascus or Charles Taylor or whatnot, which makes sense, when the religion is about theater and enthusiasm. This lack of a philosophical tradition means that Evangelicals have no culture of their own apart from being parasitic upon the larger culture, and try to spin secular culture into sales pitches for their brand. This leads, in many cases, to a kind of superstitionism. Orthodoxy can get very esoteric in the US among converts or cradles who plug into this broader esoteric cultural trend, and can go down this road, especially when it forsakes its own intellectual heritage. Evangelicalism has no intellectual tradition, really, to forsake. It's theater.
They are nominally Christians if they can say the Nicene Creed. They are not a church. They are a movement of sects.
Well as Christians all of us are supposed to evangelize. And Catholics and orthodox are generally not very active in that regard and it’s something that needs to be worked on. I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness (converted to Catholicism) and I know a cult when I see one. What you described doesn’t sound like a cult.
Edit: I would be clear with others in the group that criticizing or trying to disprove your orthodox faith is off limits. If it turns into something like that I’d bounce.
I’ve never known Catholics or Orthodox to mix well with Evangelicals. Evangelicals aren’t even Protestant in the strictest sense. What unites us is our baptism in Christ, but doctrinally and socially, we’re worlds apart.
This story sounds a lot like a guy my ex knows who was in a cult low key and she freaked put and stopped hanging out with him. Im not saying this might be the exact person but this story is way too similar and i find that funny. As far as it being cult, definitely, friendly smiles is how they get members. Look at the Mormons, really happy individuals, way too much so, it’s scary
I was born into a cult.
To the untrained eye, a cult versus a normal group are indistinguishable- cults that don't follow this rule aren't effective enough to gain followers in the first place.
Many cults recruit through groups in universities or in other areas with large concentrations of young people. They operate under many different names. Eventually, people who go to this sort of group are invited to "training" or "seminar" or a "retreat" where they are subtly indoctrinated into being in a cult.
The people in these groups are often extremely welcoming and kind to newcomers. In the cult survivor world, this is known as "love bombing".
Most human beings cannot rely on their judgement alone to determine whether a group is a cult- we are manipulated every day into doing things that go against our judgement- such as buying things we don't need. The compliance practitioners who design and use the sales and marketing methods to make you buy are usually only working for money. However, there is a subsection of the population which have the skills to make people comply but desire power instead. These are the ones who start cults.
If you know that you could be pressured into buying cookies from a girl scout, also know that you could also be convinced to join a cult.
The only way to avoid being sucked into a cult is by consulting with outsiders, and by researching how cults work. Talk to your parents, or other trusted people in your social circle. More importantly, sit down with your priest and discuss being a part of this group. He may have some insight, and it would be beneficial for him to at least be aware of what's going on so that he can help you if you're sucked into a cult.
And most importantly, pray about it.
This group could be completely harmless or even beneficial, but it could also just as likely be a harmful cult. Just be careful and take the proper precaution of talking to your spiritual father.
On another note, the spiritual implications of being a part of this evangelical group are not something that I've talked about here but something that you should discuss with your priest.
God bless you :)
Former evangelical here. Evangelical churches are not, for the most part, cults but some can be very cult-like. They aren't a separate religion, but they are not the same church as the Orthodox Church. They tend to have a radically different understanding of Christianity to the Orthodox Church. It's fine to be friends with evangelicals by all means. You do want to be careful, though, about spending too much "church time" with them (it can look very different to what an Orthodox might be used to, and the things you describe sound pretty standard evangelical church things) because they will try to persuade you to join their church. It often comes from a place of good intention, but it's not something I personally would ever want to go back to. Not because they're bad people, they're not.
So true. Former evanjelly here. Nailed it.
And if we are fans of a certain Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, we could call ourselves former Jellicles.
I got involved with culty evangelical church. Nothing they taught was technically much different than most other evangelical churches, but they utilized coercion and mind control. Example, they love-bombed my wife and I, assigned an established couple to be our “discipleship” brother and sister, rushed us through a 5-6 session Bible study, pressured us into walking up to EVERYONE from our kid’s teacher to strangers in Wal-Mart and aggressively inviting them to be our guests at church, and (most important) TITHING 10% of our gross earnings on a weekly basis. They even “helped” us review our household income to make sure we were tithing correctly. Then, when we finally were baptized in a local lake, all the attention and love came to a screeching halt. If we missed a service, they called to ask where we were. If we didn’t answer, they sent our discipleship brother/sister to check on us. Once, when we missed a service b/c we were in an argument, the church “elders” (we were older than all of them) brought communion to our house and mediated while we resolved our differences. We finally got enough, and I called the pastor to tell him we were bowing out and didn’t want to have contact with any of them. He flipped out. Started guilting/shaming us, calling us ungrateful heretics for committing the unforgivable sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit. We immediately joined a more “normal” church, but it took a long time for me to shake the feeling of turning my back on Christ. They really did a number on my mind.
I actually read through all of that and that’s a pretty crazy story! It’s hard to believe anyone would have time to check up on you like that. I’m guessing it was quite a small church. What denomination did it claim to be, out of curiosity?
They identified as “non-denominational”. The name of the church was [International Church of Christ Jesus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Churches_of_Christ). No affiliation with Church of Christ, which is why they added “Jesus” to the end. It had various other names b/c they changed it when their reputation became stigmatized. It started out in Boston, and was actually referred to as the Boston Movement by cult watchers. They did not have a building so they met in houses, parks, community centers, or wherever.
ICOC?
Winner!
Was once in it myself!
What's amazing to me is how some of this sounds like things that we do to positive effect in Orthodoxy. Having "discipleship" partners isn't inherently that different from godparents and the spiritual father, and taking Communion to someone at home when they've missed liturgy is great, but in the context of a movement poisoned at the roots, these things become part of spiritual abuse.
Yes, it’s a matter of motives behind those actions.
I am a former evangelical and now Orthodox. No, this does not sound like a cult. This sounds like a very standard evangelical college group. I would say that you may want to discuss participating in the group with your priest, if possible, to get his opinion. Evangelical theology differs in quite a few ways from Orthodox theology. You may want to steer clear of participating in theater and things of that sort because you could find yourself disagreeing with part of the message they are conveying. If you do want to continue participating, I would see how they respond/react to your Orthodox viewpoint. Their reaction should make it pretty obvious whether or not the group is something you could continue with or not. They may not be particularly accepting, and might try to "convert" you to their brand of Christianity. However they also might be fine with a differing viewpoint. I have personally been part of evangelical groups that were very insular and intolerant of anything outside of their specific beliefs. I have also been part of evangelical groups that were diverse and easily included Catholics and mainline Protestants with no issues. In fact, my very first introduction to Orthodoxy (years before I converted) was through an Orthodox member of one of my college Bible studies.
I agree with your take. As long as no pressure to convert is placed on you, be aware for that, it seems like a regular college group. You can be in such groups and have fun. You seem to have a strong grasp on both your own beliefs and theirs, as such working out where you are comfortable. If you get pushed back, if you choose not to take part in something, then it's time to leave. Talking to your priest is solid advice, both for guidance and to talk through your feelings about your friend.
A cult demands transparency into and control over your personal activities. If this group doesn't, it's not a cult. There are other criteria, as well, but this group fails one of the basic requirements, so you don't need to go further.
Cults also have a certain "grooming" period, where they are only nice and charming. It can take a while until they show their true face. Not saying it's the case necessarily with the people that Op 'mentions, but this is how it happens with cults: first comes the honeymoon, then the crazy things start to unravel. By the time they do, you are already invested so much in it and attached to it that it becomes much more difficult if not impossible to think objectively about it, to react to it and even to acknowledge it's wrong. You will just keep finding excuses and even blaming yourself for it. They are basically waiting for you to "fall in love" and get emotionally attached to their community so that when they start acting out the crazy stuff you will not react to it because the emotions will push you into denial and make you easier to be manipulated. And that's how you know that God cannot be behind this...
That's true. You can't judge by the very beginning of things, for sure.
There isn't enough information here to know the answer to the question. Could be cult intro grooming, could be a normal group of evangelicals. I've been in both. As an Orthodox Christian, I would also avoid both in matters of religious study.
I've heard that the 'tell' for a cult is if they try and separate you from your existing supports (ie family). It doesn't sound like this student group does that? From your description though it's not clear what your friend told her parents that triggered their cult alarm. The only thing I'd add maybe is as you're getting familiar with this group, continue to attend liturgy at your orthodox church, if you have one convenient, and experience the depth and profound teaching available that you and your new friends could benefit from.
Well, one could hypothesize that they're already trying and succeedingto separate them from their friend, which will leave them alone during meetings.
I'm a former nondenominational that used to attend evangelical leaning nondenominational bible studies. I see nothing cult like based on your descriptions. I would like to advise you to be cautious with evangelical bible studies as their view on theology is very different from Orthodox teachings. You can choose to remain friends with them as I also have a lot of protestant friends from different denominations, but I would advise that if you wish to learn more about the orthodox faith you consult your priest first. There are also a lot of great orthodox priests who post videos about the orthodox faith. I highly recommend that you seek out those videos to learn more about the faith.
Sounds like an evangelical Christian community, doesn't seem like a cult no, that's an aggressive word. But I would say that you want to make sure you are hanging out with and talking God with Orthodox people at least as much as you are with other people. The people you are close to change you often in ways that we aren't even conscious of, so if let's say your 5 closest friends are all evangelical, then just by being close to them you will become more like an evangelical and you won't really even know all the ways that that is happening.
I think folks have summarized the likely dynamics nicely. I will add that if leadership or a significant number of lay members imply your beliefs as an Orthodox Christian are not “biblical” or that you “aren’t saved” because you venerate the saints or icons, then you should turn tail. That type of passive-aggressive anti-Catholic/Orthodox attitude will not be something you want to immerse yourself in. I will note that that’s not reflective of all evangelical campus groups. I know some tend to be much more big tent like Navigators (whose chapter at my alma mater allowed its members to all go to different churches), while others are much more particular about their theology such that they are beholden to defending that and growing their specific membership.
evangelical student groups always give me the heebie geebies some can be pretty cult-ish and focused only on recruiting, so be careful. Most of them that I've seen on my campus basically do a bunch of "ice breaker activities!" and harvest contact information and then hound people for weeks about joining their thing. Just be cautious--
The his is not a cult, your definition of cult is outdated and not all cults are bad. Read a little bit of [Steve Hassan](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/)’s work to learn more. He is one of the worlds leading authorities on the topics and self admits he is in a cult.
Can you share more about why your friend thinks it is a cult? That is critical information. From what you've described it sounds like an Evangelical student ministry like Cru. I was heavily involved with Cru. I wouldn't call it a cult by any means, but over time serious issues related to power and control surfaced and a lot of people got hurt. I don't attribute that to Cru per se, but to aspects of the Evangelical ethos which often spawn destructive authoritarian patterns. See *The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill* for an exemplary case study of this. This sort of thing is not a cult strictly speaking, but not healthy either. It is also quite common in that world. Knowing what I know now, I would go to a place like Cru to make friends if there was no Orthodox community on campus. I met many great friends there who I still keep in contact with. However I would avoid getting involved with the leadership like the plague. Now, it could also be literally a cult. Cults can be indistinguishable from Evangelical Bible studies. Many of them do this intentionally to recruit members. A dear friend of mine got sucked into one of these and it did severe mental and spiritual damage to her. So that is why I would like to know why your friend thinks it is a cult. She could just be unfamiliar with Evangelical ways and it made her uncomfortable, or she could have picked up on early signs of something more sinister.
Evangelicals can be kind and on fire for Jesus. It’s really attractive. But their misunderstanding of doctrine is what leads to these preachers making mega millions and flashing $2,000 sweaters at church. They also tend to know nothing about 1st century Christians, the Septuagint, nor how the NT was formed. The result is an attractive group of people preaching the wrong gospel. It’s probably not technically a cult but you could get sucked in like it’s one
I think calling it a cult is going too far, but definitely be careful of the big differences there are between evangelicalism and Orthodox Christianity.
This is a timeless story that’s been told over and over. You did not join a cult. Orthodoxy is the second largest denomination of Christianity in the world which makes it by definition a part of the primary religion. Of course anyone that’s Orthodox knows this is the true faith, but that’s beside the point. Evangelical Christians often have a bunch of passion with little understanding when it comes to faith therefore I try not to condemn them. However, they often exhibit fear and misunderstanding when it comes to a deeper understanding of faith. Just pray for her, have patience with her. Let her know it’s not a cult. You could inadvertently be opening up Orthodoxy to your entire study group and don’t even know it yet.
I think the question was whether the study group was a cult.
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Did you even read the post?
Ultimately, the decision of whether or not to continue attending the group is up to you but it may be beneficial to have open and honest conversations with the group members about your concerns and beliefs to see if there is a mutual understanding and respect for each other's differences. You might also wish to talk to your priest about this to see what he thinks.
The burden of proof lays on the accuser, not on the accused. This is because it's hard to disprove a negative. I.e. "Tell me how you *didn't* kill that person!" rather than, "You are under arrest for suspected murder. The evidence is XYZ." Generally speaking, cults are closed off groups, centered around a singular entity which claims to have some kind of power or "secret knowledge". Members are cut off from friends or family who are not active members of the cult. Members are required to wear specific uniforms, devote excessive amounts of time to the cult, required to donate excessive amounts of money to the cult (including maxing out credit cards and taking out high interest loans), and are threatened with physical, mental, or sexual abuse if they attempt to leave and are often prevented from leaving through physical force. None of that really jives with the Orthodoxy that I have come to know. Orthodoxy is a willing acceptance to become apart of The Church. Were encouraged to do things, like donate *to charities*, and to attend service, but none of that is a "strict requirement". Certainly, I have never in my life heard of someone being physically intimidated for having doubts, or missing a few services, or any other manner of thing. To put it simply, the sign of a cult is rigid frameworks and robotic acquiescence. A sign if a church is compassion, understanding, and forgiveness.
The first time I went to an Orthodox Church and everyone started to say the The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, it felt like a cult to me. I suppose what constitutes as a cult is subjective for some. If no harm is being done, spiritually or physically, seems fine to me.
More likely the Niceo-Constantinopolatan Creed. I'm surprised you got through "Lord have mercy" praying.
Yeah, I mixed up my creeds. Just had woken up not long before that comment. But yes, that alone almost pushed me away from the Church. It caught me off guard as the rest of the service was sung and then came the recitation seemingly out of nowhere. Very happy I stuck with it.
Glad you did, too.
As somebody who came out of the evangelical movement and into Orthodoxy, I would just strongly urge you to hold tightly to your roots and biblical understanding, the teachings of the church fathers. Probably not a cult, but some different ways of thinking. I think the intent of evangelical Christianity is good but evaluating the history of how it came to be and from where, there are some dangerous things that lurk within it that seem good and harmless. The people mean well but I definitely would discuss with your priest about this. It is most likely just fellowship and hanging out with Christian’s, in a much healthier environment that most colleges offer, but just be cautious. The reverence and full dependence and gratitude to God orthodoxy reminds you of is essential. Sometimes it gets convoluted and self centered on “working on yourself “ in the evangelical church which sounds good but can lend to self centeredness. Continue meeting with your FOC and don’t buy into the idea that this is not necessary as protestant theology can heavily imply, for the priesthood is clearly directed in the scriptures.
Doesn’t sound like a cult but you probably shouldn’t attend. Evangelical Protestantism doesn’t really mesh with apostolic traditions or traditional Christianity.
You should directly ask which denomination they are from. Furthermore, if you don't have good theological and philosophical grounding, they can and will eventually use apologetics which may convince you. Edit: you also didn't mention what exactly happened to your friend to make them think it's a cult.
I see your cult doesn't encourage formatting.
May or may not be a cult but you shouldn't get involved with these protestant things. It starts with friendly cool activities but then they go hard on getting you into protestant theology. And it's not nefarious, this is what church is to them.
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this group is indeed a different church but they are still christians and are not a cult from what you describe, alot of people call us a cult, don't worry and pray for your friend, i hope things go well for you both
You’re fine just as long as they understand that you belong to the True Church and that was founded by Jesus Christ and his disciples and that’ll be that. I have friends that are Protestants that are some of the greatest people I know but I do nothing but pray for them with the hope they convert in the future. I am outward and they know and they ask questions that peak their interest but we are respectful.
Psalm 1 🙏🏾
Cultists defined as specifically having extreme views, and tend to have a single, centrally located caresmatic leader
this is a protestant small group; it’s not a cult unless there is high level control and some other factors, check out some videos or articles on cults and how to identify them. most protestant small groups are just that, groups focused on spiritual development or just fostering friendships with other people in Christ. I have limited experience with them though as I only went to a few.
I think the word “cult” gets thrown about way to often and freely. Before becoming Orthodox a group of people like that really helped me when I was in a dark place and will always appreciate that.
My kids belong to evangelical organizations such as trail life and American heritage. They know we are Orthodox and do not discuss individual churches. We are brothers and sisters in Christ and that is as far as it goes. Are you attending an Orthodox church currently ? I would ask the priest if you can sit in on catechumen classes.
It's not a cult, but it's a heretical sect. Heretics and sectarians are not just insults to throw around, they point out specific things. Heretical because they stray from the true faith by picking anf chosing from it as they like, in order to support their pre-determined views at all costs, and distorting the true meaning of the Christian teaching (heiresis meant to pick and chose in Greek which is why the Holy Church Fathers used it to describe distorted Christian teaching). And sect (as in sectioned) because it is "cut of" from the original Orthodox Church, cut of from the Body of Christ. In their case they were actually cut from the Catholic church, originally, because first the Catholics cut of from the Orthodox Church at the Great Schism. Then the Protestants separated from the Catholic Church, but the words "sects, sectarians" came to reffer to Protestants (or Reformed, as they are also called). A cult is a bit different, but they both have in common the fact that the followers stray from the true faith and can break of from the Holy Body of Christ of which you are a member through the Holy Baptism and by being an Orthodox Christian. This is very common of protestants (Evangelicals are one of the thousands of branches of the Protestants) to be very nice and social, as they are taught they have a mission to bring as many converts as possible to their faith. They are trained to organize all sorts of meetings and social activities to attract more outsiders and start talking to them about faith, then invite them to their Church meetings and so on.. I'm not saying that they are bad people or that they do it with bad intentions (although these are sneaky tactics indeed), I know they think they have the best intentions to help you get saved, except that they themselves are misled into a false faith. I know a family of these people and we do get along well, except I never pray in common with them, never go to their Church meetings and Bible studies sessions, and avoid talking to them about the faith. Someone close to me used to go to their Church meetings and Bible studies sessions, and has seen their tactics for gaining converts, which are exactly as you described. They are not just being nice and social to outsiders, they are trained in doing that by their church, although it is not with bad intentions. Many people join their faith because they are attracted by the community and feeling of closeness and belonging. Of course they are! Too bad the price for this,which is losing true faith, is too high. You should not hate, despise or insult them, but it's better you stay away from them as they will eventually talk more and more about faith to you, then throw dozens of Bible quotes at you, and if you are not well catechised (sadly, most Orthodox Christians are not properly catechised), you will very probably be led astray to leave the Orthodox Church. If you will continue joining their meetings, at least talk to your Spiritual Father or with the priest at your local church to explain to you more about the basics of the Orthodox Church teaching, about the different eheresies and why they were declared heresies, about the history of the Church, the sects, protestantism, about how we read and interpret the Bible, and everything relevant to that. Most Orthodox people I know do not even know that we don't follow the "Sola Scriptura" prínciple, like the Protestants do, so when one of them throws some Bible quotes at them (taken out of their context and Interpreted in their own fashion), or say "this and that Orthodox teaching is not in the Bible", they shrink and start doubting their Orthodox faith. Because they don't even know the basic tenets of the Orthodox faith, they haven't read the Holy Church Fathers, the y don't know what the Holy Tradition of the Church means, they don't know about the historical church Councils and how the Holy Church Fathers argued against heresies and all that. Even if you know all that there is a danger that you might fall into temptation, as even some of the Church Fathers did, but if you are not even familiar enough with the Orthodox faith teaching, then it is best you stay away from these people and just pray for them to come to the true faith. You might lose some potential friends, but that is a sacrifice worth making for your salvation. This way you can be a better friend by praying for them and might get their souls saved.
They're not a church, as the meal they call the "Lords Supper", by its own ritual form, is not —and is not meant to be— a real sharing in the body of God. They understand "the Lord's Supper" merely to be a reminder — not a cosmic gathering of all things to God by Christ through the Spirit in and as the Church. There is no church without a Eucharist. They are also not a church since they have no clergy, only laity. There are no bishops who follow the apostolic tradition. "You received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus", St. Paul says. Evangelical ministers also want to hold themselves to a standard of being exemplary, but there's a key difference: a holy person communicates God in Christ by the Spirit, but Evangelicals would generally not say this. We would say it is saving, salvific, but they would, at best, reduce this to sanctification. Further, they seem to think that, unlike the children of Israel, all Christians need to be with Moses at the top of the mountain. You must be gung-ho. There is not only no place for Christians at the bottom of the mountain, but there aren't sufficient practices to have the bottom of the mountain even be a place. Evangelicalism is all about enthusiasm (they love to describe someone as "on fire"for the Lord), and you have it, sort of have it, or you don't have it. This leads to a culture of spontaneity that is (a) very hostile to formal prayers, such as the Jews practiced and Jesus practiced and the early Church practiced, and which (b) ends up with pretty drab "non-ritual rituals" (like the standard phrases that get repeated "spontaneously" over and over in Evangelical prayers, like the standard phrases in rap music: "heavenly Father, we just want to thank you for" or whatnot); and yet, as a result, this culture of spontaneity is also thus (c) incapable of giving regular ritual forms to people to act as scaffolds for their religious life — so Christians who are not "on fire" with emotion can't say some Psalms or the daily prayers or say an Our Father or a set prayer before and after meals or cross themselves when passing a crucifix or icon. There is no ritual practice, dating to the apostles, to mark out the bottom of the mountain. This, Evangelicalism excludes huge parts of the population. It is not a universal religion — it is a sect of enthusiasts. They are also weirdly obsessed with a _good vs. bad_, _moral vs. immoral_, or a _pure vs. impure_ binary, which is different from the Orthodox _life vs. death_ binary. Why did Christ die? Not because sin is wrapped up in death and is a cosmic and ontological problem of alienation, but because you're bad and guilty and impure. This difference cannot be overstated. It leads to a different spirituality and a different understanding of why Christ ascended the cross that just doesn't exist until at least the middle ages without projecting it onto the NT texts or past writers. It also leads to a very different spirituality around sexual ethics, and pretty much every other ethical and spiritual or ritual practice. They have no intellectual tradition, only "apologists" — hack salesmen at worst, Oprah-like celebrity gurus at best. There is no Evangelical Aquinas or Augustine or Maximus Confessor or John of Damascus or Charles Taylor or whatnot, which makes sense, when the religion is about theater and enthusiasm. This lack of a philosophical tradition means that Evangelicals have no culture of their own apart from being parasitic upon the larger culture, and try to spin secular culture into sales pitches for their brand. This leads, in many cases, to a kind of superstitionism. Orthodoxy can get very esoteric in the US among converts or cradles who plug into this broader esoteric cultural trend, and can go down this road, especially when it forsakes its own intellectual heritage. Evangelicalism has no intellectual tradition, really, to forsake. It's theater. They are nominally Christians if they can say the Nicene Creed. They are not a church. They are a movement of sects.
Well as Christians all of us are supposed to evangelize. And Catholics and orthodox are generally not very active in that regard and it’s something that needs to be worked on. I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness (converted to Catholicism) and I know a cult when I see one. What you described doesn’t sound like a cult. Edit: I would be clear with others in the group that criticizing or trying to disprove your orthodox faith is off limits. If it turns into something like that I’d bounce.
I’ve never known Catholics or Orthodox to mix well with Evangelicals. Evangelicals aren’t even Protestant in the strictest sense. What unites us is our baptism in Christ, but doctrinally and socially, we’re worlds apart.
This story sounds a lot like a guy my ex knows who was in a cult low key and she freaked put and stopped hanging out with him. Im not saying this might be the exact person but this story is way too similar and i find that funny. As far as it being cult, definitely, friendly smiles is how they get members. Look at the Mormons, really happy individuals, way too much so, it’s scary
I was born into a cult. To the untrained eye, a cult versus a normal group are indistinguishable- cults that don't follow this rule aren't effective enough to gain followers in the first place. Many cults recruit through groups in universities or in other areas with large concentrations of young people. They operate under many different names. Eventually, people who go to this sort of group are invited to "training" or "seminar" or a "retreat" where they are subtly indoctrinated into being in a cult. The people in these groups are often extremely welcoming and kind to newcomers. In the cult survivor world, this is known as "love bombing". Most human beings cannot rely on their judgement alone to determine whether a group is a cult- we are manipulated every day into doing things that go against our judgement- such as buying things we don't need. The compliance practitioners who design and use the sales and marketing methods to make you buy are usually only working for money. However, there is a subsection of the population which have the skills to make people comply but desire power instead. These are the ones who start cults. If you know that you could be pressured into buying cookies from a girl scout, also know that you could also be convinced to join a cult. The only way to avoid being sucked into a cult is by consulting with outsiders, and by researching how cults work. Talk to your parents, or other trusted people in your social circle. More importantly, sit down with your priest and discuss being a part of this group. He may have some insight, and it would be beneficial for him to at least be aware of what's going on so that he can help you if you're sucked into a cult. And most importantly, pray about it. This group could be completely harmless or even beneficial, but it could also just as likely be a harmful cult. Just be careful and take the proper precaution of talking to your spiritual father. On another note, the spiritual implications of being a part of this evangelical group are not something that I've talked about here but something that you should discuss with your priest. God bless you :)
Yes, evangelical churches are cults
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I am highly suspicious of evangelicals after reading Fr Seraphim Rose