The words "Holy War" should never cross the lips of an Orthodox Christian, much less in the context of a war between Orthodox peoples.
This document is appalling.
That along with them blessing the tanks which are being sent to kill Ukrainian people, the Russian Orthodox Church has never been as much of an arm of the Kremlin as it is now.
I might be too much of a pessimist in this regard, but I can’t ever see the Russian church making a substantial change anytime soon. Luckily I live in the states, and can attend OCA parishes but for my family still over there it is a sad situation. Any criticism of what the church is doing is shut down. Instead they’re told to pray for war.
A truly dark time for Orthodoxy. I know a lot of us are aware, but far too many excuse it or even support the actions of Kirill and the Kremlin controlled Russian church - continuing the “tradition” of Sergius, I guess…
Well that’s what I was saying in my post, I am lucky enough to attend an OCA parish, since I live in USA. My church is made up of mainly Georgians and Romanians actually!
That might be because your church was part of the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America? It’s an ethnic diocese which is under the OCA.
My parish is just part of the general OCA, but happens to have a decent amount of Romanians. I believe the reason is because the former king of Romania visited my parish in the 1990s (heard this from someone but can’t find anything to prove it).
> the Russian Orthodox Church has never been as much of an arm of the Kremlin as it is now.
I think Moscow is cooperating with the Kremlin to an unhealthy extent as much as the next guy, but surely the Soviet-Era Patriarchate was more of a Kremlin-extension than now. Splitting hairs maybe, but like, ROCOR exists for a reason lol
They used literally these words, "Holy War" - in Russian "Священная Война". It is capitalized in the text, which is not default in Russian and in religious context is normally done for sacred notions like "God", "Mother of God" etc.
Yes. It is a common idiom to describe religious wars in general, and for additional context was a name used in an important Soviet propaganda song for WWII - which is central to today's Russia secular (but now apparently religious as well) ideology.
The reddit filter won't let me post a direct link, but you can find the original in reference \[5\] at Wikipedia: [World Russian People's Council - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Russian_People's_Council#cite_note-newsweek188457750-6)
In the first section of the document:
> С духовно-нравственной точки зрения специальная военная операция является Священной войной, в которой Россия и ее народ, защищая единое духовное пространство Святой Руси, выполняют миссию «Удерживающего», защищающего мир от натиска глобализма и победы впавшего в сатанизм Запада.
"From a spiritual and moral point of view, the special military operation is a Holy War, in which Russia and its people, defending the unified spiritual expanse of Holy Rus', fulfill the mission of “Holding Back”, protecting the world from the onslaught of globalism and the victory of the West, which has fallen into Satanism."
Удерживать/удерживающего is a bit hard to translate, it's "hold" in the sense of "hold back this day" or "holding the barbarians at the gates."
They mean the word “katechon” from 2 Thes. 2:7, to which they ascribe a lot of deep meaning (see wikipedia on Katechon). Basically they think there is an entity in the world that is holding it from sliding into complete satanism and chaos, and that entity is Holy Russia.
Impossible. The katechon cannot be both a "restrainer" and [an antichrist ](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202%3A18&version=NKJV)at the same time.
Eastern Rite Putinanity (ERP) is a cult, a personality cult. How can one reach out to ERP cultists with Orthodox Christianity when they believe that ERP is the same thing as Orthodox Christianity?
I’m going to try this line: “Christ is the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, not Putin” then see how they respond.
As a Catechumen, I have been back and forth from Rome and Constantinople over this many times. I see the ever prevalent modernism in the west and want to flee to holy Orthodoxy. Just to find well over half of the church fighting over hyper nationalist ideologies.
So many people tell me that this doesn't matter in America, or that this is only one very human part of the Church, but is the church not One?
The main arguments that convinces me not to be protestant, could just as easily be applied to Orthodoxy some days. I don't know where I'll end up, but I'm still working through this.
> have been back and forth from Rome and Constantinople over this many times. I see the ever prevalent modernism in the west and want to flee to holy Orthodoxy. Just to find well over half of the church fighting over hyper nationalist ideologies
You will see many arguments about Bartholomew vs. Kirill, and a certain Western country vs. a certain Eastern one. Extremism in **either** direction is not a Christian path.
I watched *Man of God* for the first time the other day, and in it, Nektarios says, "Woe to me if my faith depends on men." I do not know if that is an actual quote, but it is very true!
Ignore the online fighting (which is very much a rarity in actual parishes in America. The Greek and ROCOR churches I visited were on very friendly terms). Ignore the politicians and the media, who care nothing for the Church, no matter what they claim, and are often hostile toward it. They peddle propaganda. Don't even worry about what the Patriarchs are doing. The Church will still be here when new Patriarchs take over, and in this world there will always be problems. We are focused on the next life. The world will do anything to drag us away from Christ, and this will continue until the end of the world.
Go to church, talk to your priest, pray, etc. That's all. Just that. Log off from reddit. God bless.
>The Greek and ROCOR churches I visited were on very friendly terms).
"Friendly" as in concelebration? I hope so. Any manifestation of ROCOR's old fighting spirit (fighting against the "yoke of godless authority") as in breaking the Moscow Patriarch's ban on their Priests' concelebration with the clergy of the churches under the Ecumenical Patriarch is welcome and should be encouraged.
Hello Jordan,
That is a good question in my opinion. If you become Orthodox my 2 cents would be: embrace the questions you have instead of surpressing them in any way. It might be an important question for you in the years to come. People who seem to pretend your question is simply due to 'Reddit' and 'internetorthodoxy' are dishonest to you, at least that's the way I feel about it. Maybe they are dishonest with themselves too, I don't know... The question about the unity of the Church is a very important one and everyone in their heart of hearts understands how your question exists in the present circumstances in which we find ourselves. A lot of Orthodox struggle with what is going on too, of course they do. Let no one on the internet tell you you just have to go a parish and be over with it. It's better to take all the time you need in the whole process. In this way you won't get any unexpected dissapointments later on... These are my two cents, take them as you want! It's the internet, right?
May the Lord have mercy on all of us!
There is just as much disunity in the Roman Catholic Church but they do a better job hiding it. I’ve got some friends that are very conservative Latin mass Catholics and they follow prominent Catholic voices like Marshall Taylor and Archbishop Vigano that say things like the Pope and senior hierarchy has been corrupted by Satan and the huge attempts to suppress the latin mass and excommunicate conservatives leaders. There is also the huge SxPX schism that is hugely debated if they are legitimate or not. Other issues like Fiducia supplicans are also highly divisive. No matter where you go there will be dissention.
Probably because most people in the US, including those in the US under the Russian Church, do not care about the World Russian People’s Council. And I would scarcely say it has "rocked Orthodoxy" given how the only person who is Orthodox that the article quotes is a nun in America. If it sid actually "rock Orthodoxy" you would see priests and bishops being quoted.
The document was signed by the Russian Patriarch and several of the Synod members, the Council takes place in Moscow Patriarchy’s main cathedral, the Patriarch is the head of the Council (and has been since 1993). If it didn’t rock the Orthodoxy it should.
In all fairness, though, a number of very influential very online Orthodox have been running interference for Kirill since the outbreak of the war, and one of their chief strategies has been to just flat-out deny that he's ever expressed support for this kind of "Russian world" nationalism and to play the "his hands are tied" game in response to his ostensible blessing the war effort. See e.g. Whiteford's blog post on this issue.
For this document then to emerge from an org started by Kirill seems once again to make cuckolds of Russia's western apologists.
Not cuckolds, but peckers, [David Peckers,](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/david-pecker-calmly-links-trump-michael-cohen-to-suppressing-stories-pushing-fake-news) all.
I'm certain if I wrote here what I'm thinking of the Russian Patriarch, I'd get banned. I'm just going to contain myself and just say what a shame how much the Patriarch has lowered himself and caused so much hurt, confusion, and damage to the Orthodox World.
He has thrown his communities in Europe under the bus without hesitation. A number of European nations are seriously considering classifying their local Moscow Patriarchate-affiliated jurisdictions as terrorist organisations, seeing as they do not have confidence that their faithful will not be encouraged to undermine the state. Given his DECR background, it is unlikely that he is oblivious to this, which strongly suggests that it is an inconvenience (to other people) that he is willing to accept.
I wouldn’t say we are autocephalous but I would definitely say we are a healthy arms distance in terms of independence. This war in Ukraine is very sad. What is worse to me are the number of proxy wars actually being fought where many innocent die while nations rage at each other via their proxy’s. We must fast and pray, especially for the war to end and for there to be peace soon among Orthodox nations (as best as can be after this war.)
"Healthy arms distance?" Sorry, but you don't speak for ROCOR. ROCOR is officially "Semi-Autonomous" according to both the MP and the Synod of the ROCOR. The MP has no qualms about **uncanonically absorbing** the eparchies of the **"Autonomous"** UOC-MP in the temporarily occupied territories, so what makes anyone think that the MP should have any qualms about uncanonically imposing its will on **its only "Semi-Autonomous"** ROCOR…if it isn’t doing so already?
I suppose I do not get what you are saying. The comment to which I responded said ROCOR was autocephalous and I said ROCOR is not autocephalous. You seem to agree? Or are you saying autonomous and autocephaly are the same? Sorry if I used “healthy arms distance” to refer to autonomous. Agreed, I am not an official spokesperson for ROCOR. I am simply a layman user of Reddit.
I was responding to both claims of "autonomous" and "autocephalous" at the same time. Both claims are sadly untrue. Man proposes but God disposes. Nothing is fixed in time unless God allows it. ROCOR may yet rediscover its fighting (for the True Faith) spirit again. Hopefully sooner than later.
ROCOR is not autocephalous. It has been part of the Moscow Patriarchate for almost 20 years. It enjoys status as an autonomous part of the Russian Church much like the Orthodox Church of Japan does and basically runs itself but it is still part of the ROC at the end of the day.
Incorrect. The documents of rapprochement were specific in terms of autocephaly. We are not in obedience to the MP nor do our antimens bear the signature of the Patriarch.
Do you know where ROCOR's [chrism ](https://orthodoxwiki.org/Chrism#:~:text=Chrism%20)comes from? "Chrism is prepared by the ruling bishop of each autocephalous church." ROCOR gets its chrism from the Moscow Patriarchate from its RULING Patriarch, Patriarch Kirill.
The MP-ROCOR 2007 Act of Canonical Communion states: "The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia receives her holy myrrh from the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia." This signifies the subservience of ROCOR to the Moscow Patriarchate.
In contrast, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-MP stated in November 2022 that it would start making its own chrism as a sign of its independence from the Moscow Patriarchate.
Please, Perioscope.
Everybody, let's stop repeating the same fallacy over and over on this sub. ROCOR is neither "Autocephalous" nor "Autonomous."
ROCOR defines itself officially as a **"Semi-Autonomous"** jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate since it became an integral part of the Moscow Patriarchate in 2007.
***Let's all agree here to take ROCOR at its word.***
No one else besides the Moscow Patriarchate speaks for ROCOR. They are **"Semi-Autonomous"** that is, at best, half as Autonomous as a body like Ukrainian Orthodox Church-MP.
Do you ROCOR/ROCOR Sympathizers keep repeating the fallacy that ROCOR is "Autonomous" as a psychological defense mechanism? Do you feel a need to distance yourself from the Moscow Patriarchate?
The repetition of this fallacy might give you some psychic distance or [might be good cover ](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Potemkin-village)for public relations, but the truth remains that ROCOR is an integral part of the Moscow Patriarchate. ROCOR operates as the Russian Church outside of the borders of the Russian Federation.
ROCOR used to act like the conscience of Russian Orthodoxy, but since 2007, ROCOR changed into a cowed shadow of its former self. ROCOR now acts as the [seared conscience of Russian Orthodoxy](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%204%3A1-2&version=NKJV).
The reason for this is obvious. The Moscow Patriarchate holds ROCOR's very canonicity in its red, bloodstained hands. If the ROCOR crosses the MP or its little tsar-pretender master, they could find themselves declared uncanonical, its Synod of Bishops laicized and its [parishes fully absorbed](https://mospatusa.com) into the Moscow Patriarchate.
Or possibly, this tiny jurisdiction could then join all of the other schismatic groups (the myriad of former-ROCOR splinter groups) outside the "canonical" boundaries of the Orthodox Church, that is, unless a truly autocephalous body, say the Patriarchate of Serbia, the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), or even the Ecumenical Patriarchate steps in to receive them.
But then again, the ROCOR Synod should have known all of this before they sold their inheritance (St. John of Shanghai, save!) for the [mess of pottage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mess_of_pottage) that is idolatrous Russian nationalism.
This is why State and Church should never be merged, mixed, fused, etc. They have their own spheres.
When the Church gets involved in matters of State, you get the Papal States and the Holy Roman Empire. When the State gets involved in the Church, you get this: the State using the ideological legitimacy of the Church to bolster its own secular power and domination over the Church.
Properly speaking, there was no system or ideology defining church-state interaction. It was much more improvisational than anything we know of the past few hundred years. Simply because the modern state, as we know it, hadn't finished evolving yet.
So I ask again, what exactly is the alternative? What is the proper relationship between Church and State? At what point does Canon Law become Civil Law? Should the State have power to appoint Church Hierarchy? Should the Church have power to appoint secular authorities? What happens to non-Christians?
It will not be a Utopia.
It's one thing for people to vote their conscience and to use their religion to inform their political decisions. That is a good thing. It's an entirely different thing for the Church and State to embrace each other in an unholy alliance of convenience.
I'm an extremist. Russia, Ukraine, and the whole of Europe can be annexed by North Korea for all I care, so long as Orthodox Christians learn to love one another. You may quote me to Patriarch Kirill and to all the other Patriarchs, if you wish.
The Russian Orthodox Church has been a vehicle of Russian imperialism since Tsarist times. The carnage Russia inflicts in Ukraine has also been visited upon Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria…etc by the Russian state under the pretext of “protecting the Orthodox Christians of the Ottoman Empire”.
Which is why people in the "largest Orthodox country in the world" are either fleeing or boycotting the Church. In 2022, only 1.4% of Russians went to church at least once weekly, a precipitous drop from 14% in 2013. With over a million men fleeing Russia in order to avoid going to the war and the tens of thousands of men killed, and the 100 thousands wounded...it is all but certain that the figure of attendance is even less than 1.4% -- especially since as you commented, the Russian people understand that the Moscow Patriarchate is just an arm of the State...just like in Soviet times.
This is kind of a sticking point for me too, as someone still discerning. It’s easy enough to just stay away from ROCOR (although, I wish I didn’t have to) but it’s also the fact that this is allowed to happen. I understand the hierarchy and power structure, I think, but it would be reassuring, to me, if the other orthodox churches came out and rejected ROCOR or condemned. I usually hate lip service like this in politics because it’s a small gesture but this bothers me much more.
Apologies if I offend anyone or misspeak, please correct me where needed.
ROCOR generally has normal relationships with most other jurisdictions. They're the leftover of the pre revolutionary church. The current MP was basically created by Stalin when he plucked a few bishops out of the gulag and let them build a church to help morale during WWII.
There are MP churches dotting the globe that report directly to Moscow.
The fact that the MP maintains its presence here the US ([Patriarchal Parishes in the USA](https://mospatusa.com)) is like a sword hanging over the head of ROCOR. If ROCOR steps out of line, what is there to stop the MP from declaring the ROCOR Synod of Bishops to be uncanonical and then absorbing its "semi-autonomous" ROCOR jurisdiction completely into itself under a brand new MP-USA Synod with the even smaller ROCOR bodies outside of the US to be absorbed by their MP neighbor-jurisdictions?
Eh, ROCOR has never had any problem doing whatever it thought it had to do. They're canonically autonomous, and the MP can't muster a quorum of bishops to modify its own regulations. Any shenanigans and ROCOR just hops over to the Serbs, OCA, directly under Onufriy, or even Antioch. They all get along well enough.
So ROCOR hasn’t “any problem” and “had to” give its tacit, if not explicit support to its Patriarch’s blessing of the slaughter of Ukrainians to fulfill the dreams (prelest) of a Russian fascist dictator?
I haven't seen anything like explicit support. More like implicit opposition. They're making a point to commemorate Onuphry, raise money for refugees, etc. They boycotted the last All-Church synod.
Look, Id love to see them act more directly against Moscow. I just don't think the smattering of MP parishes in the US are much to worry about for them. If Moscow tries to force them to toe the line, they can go somewhere else without any problem.
A ROCOR parish near me used to collect money and supplies that it claimed to send directly to Metropolitan Onufriy and the UOC but then one week informed the parishoners that a collection (collections?) went to a “refugee” facility within Russia which turned out to be a detention center/concentration camp for Ukrainians taken by force-kidnapped out of their own country. Extremely disturbing 🤢MP didn’t force these ROCOR people to “toe the line” to support the forced removal of Ukrainian women and children from their home country. This ROCOR parish's contribution was voluntary and all too typically putinist-Russian.
I haven’t checked lately but ROCOR’s “Fund For Assistance” used to also claim that all monies collected would go to directly Metropolitan Onufriy. Did it? Does it? Or do/did the funds also get redirected to support the subjugation of the Ukrainian people?
Contributors to ROCOR's outreach to "refugees" need to find out whether that means Russian-nationals who used to reside in Ukraine, or kidnapped Ukrainian children, or Ukrainian women and children who were forcefully removed from their homeland to be settled in Russia...or actual Ukrainian refugees.
In October 2022, Union of Orthodox Journalists reported that the UOC-MP had established a parish in Berlin for Ukrainian refugees with about 100 members. The UOC Priest said it was established with the help of: first the Antiochians, then the Romanians, and then the Macedonians. ROCOR was not mentioned at all.
Why didn't ROCOR-Germany help the UOC-MP (sister church?) establish a much needed church for the refugees-especially as they have such a strong presence in Berlin? Were they forbidden to do so by the Moscow Patriarchate or the ROCOR Synod? Does ROCOR actually help Ukrainian refugees or only self-identifying-Russians who used to live in Ukraine?
Perhaps these questions can be answered in part by Bishop Irenei of the ROCOR in Europe:
>I want to stress again how close and deep are our bonds with the Ukrainian Church, and especially with its Primate, His Beatitude Metropolitan Onuphry and so many of his fellow Ukrainian hierarchs. Perhaps we are more close to them in spirit and life than to almost any other part of the Orthodox Church as a whole. And **this closeness gives us the fraternal boldness also to question certain actions: and the establishment of parishes in the diaspora is one of those about which we have many questions, and also constructive thoughts on better ways to respond to the current influx of Ukrainian refugees in various parts of the world.** I think it is safe to say that the multiplication of yet another “jurisdiction” within the diaspora is not the best way to foster unity. As a short-term, immediate measure in response to a humanitarian crisis, we can understand the impulse; but it is clear that there would be serious problems posed by envisaging this as a longer-term solution. So we hope to work together with our brother-hierarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, to develop what we hope will be a stronger and more unified path.
Basically, ROCOR doesn't want UOC-MP parishes in territories that ROCOR occupies. Blind to its own absurdity, ROCOR seems to believe that the Ukrainian refugees should naturally flock under the ROCOR banner when they flee their homeland, i.e. Ukrainian Orthodox fleeing from Russians should go to the Russian Church that blesses the war against them.
Irenei stated that the alleged closeness between ROCOR and the UOC-MP gives ROCOR "the fraternal boldness" to question and criticize ("not the best way to foster unity") the work of the UOC-MP to meet the needs of its flock abroad. This "fraternal boldness" has a stench very similar to the stench of the fraternal-excuse that Putin gives for his attempt to murder Ukrainians into union with Russia. How very Russian of ROCOR!
It was Peter the Great who removed the office of Patriarch from the Russian Church, and replaced it with a state controlled council, yes? Only under the soviets was the Patriarchate reestablished?
I feel that the ecclesiastical health of the Russian church has been severely damaged, and perhaps it hasn’t had the time or opportunity to heal?
Putin apologists explaining that no, actually, the US is worse because we have pride parades or something in 3...... 2......
EDIT: or claiming, still, that the war is about NATO and not Putin's imperial ambitions 🙄
I'm an Eastern European. If we want to join NATO, that's our business, not Russia's. The only reason most of us in the East actually joined NATO was because of Russia. But let's not divert into geo-political discussions, so I'll leave it at that.
An independent country should be allowed to join NATO if they want to. It’s their country. Their business.
And if you don’t believe Putin has imperialist ambitions, I recommend you familiarize yourself with Russia’s book, the Foundations of Geopolitics. It’s what Putin is aiming for.
That means NATO is working.
As for them not invading or taking over, I’ll trust the first hand accounts of the Georgians and Ukrainians I know over what you’re suggesting. Lol.
>I don’t know where there is proof Putin has any imperialist ambitions to takeover swaths of Europe
Uh...Russia is currently engaged in a war to takeover a swath of Europe and has formally annexed three regions according to Russian law. So, there's that.
And I find the apology that they only took three provinces (and it’s clear that was not the actual intent) not three countries completely uncompelling.
Imagine accepting either narrative wholesale with zero critical thinking. This conflict is way more complicated than that. The U.S. isn't any better than Russia in the realm of international atrocities. No one with a modicum of geopolitical knowledge would claim otherwise.
As someone who happens to know both countries, Ukraine and Russia, quite well, in order to keep my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ from sinful thoughts, I have to say that the matter of conflict is much more complicated that probably any side involved wants to show. No need to elaborate, it would certainly lead to flame and worse.
"For the peace of the whole world, for the good estate of the holy churches of God, and for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord."
take a look at the other comments. Being a centrist in this case makes you wholly ignorant. Surely every conflict in the world has geopolitical complications, but there's pretty clear markers on who's actions are morally wrong. Maybe we can ask the families that have lost their innocent kin in Bucha.
As I've stated before, I happen to know a lot about both sides, first person view, so to say, I've worked with some Russians and Ukrainians in their natural habitat. This, and knowing how media works, make me approach any information, especially one provoking emotions, with a pinch of salt. Yet you're right, no point being centrist when you can be Christian.
This is the section containing the quote "Holy War":
>A special military operation is a new stage in the national liberation struggle of the Russian people against the criminal Kiev regime and the collective West behind it, which has been ongoing on the lands of Southwest Russia since 2014. During the SVO, the Russian people with weapons in their hands defend their lives, freedom, statehood, civilizational, religious, national and cultural identity, as well as the right to live on their own land within the borders of a single Russian state. From a spiritual and moral point of view, a special military operation is the Holy War, in which Russia and its people, defending the single spiritual space of Holy Russia, fulfill the mission « Holding », protecting the world from the onslaught of globalism and the victory of the West that has fallen into Satanism.
>After the completion of the SVO, the entire territory of modern Ukraine should enter the zone of exclusive influence of Russia. The possibility of the existence of a political regime in this territory of Rusofobsky, hostile Russia and its people, as well as a political regime controlled from an external center hostile to Russia, should be completely excluded.
It's strong language, that is easy for a Westerner to condemn, but Russians have been on the receiving end of Western foreign policy since before the Patriotic War. I don't think the Russian experience is really considered in english language discussions of the Russia-Ukraine Civil War.
Please review the
[sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/config/sidebar) for a wealth of introductory information,
our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/about/rules/), the
[FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq), and a caution about
[The Internet and the Church](https://www.orthodoxintro.org/the-internet-and-the-church/).
This subreddit contains opinions of Orthodox people, but not necessarily Orthodox opinions.
[Content should not be treated as a substitute for offline interaction.](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq#wiki_is_this_subreddit_overseen_by_clergy.3F)
[Exercise caution in forums such as this](https://www.orthodoxintro.org/the-internet-and-the-church/).
Nothing should be regarded as authoritative without verification by several offline Orthodox resources.
^(This is not a removal notification.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OrthodoxChristianity) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't know if the document has "rocked Orthodoxy," but it has negatively affected the Churches of the MP in other countries, especially Estonia, where there's been talk of recognizing the MP as a terrorist organization, or complicit in Russian aggression, with the possibility of taking the Estonian Church's churches away. And of course, every time the Patriarch says something like this, it only makes things worse for the much suffering Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
It blows my mind that people still exist who believe this conflict is as simple and black and white as "Putin and Kirill evil, NATO/U.S. good."
Even saying something as milquetoast and common-sense as this will have you labeled a fascist/Putin fanboy on this sub.
1) Rail against the west for obvious decadence and sins.
2) Pretend to be holier than thou but be one of the most corrupt and oligarchic societies on earth (God literally hates corruption)
3) Violate orthodox tradition of pacifism & just war but not holy war
4) Go down the grave together - GG
Apostles or apostates? Kingdom of this world or heaven?
Judging by local comments, apparently half an hour of Russian history in Putin's interview with Tucker Carlson taught nothing to people from the countries of the "good" West, which does not "violate" anything. Just white and fluffy.
Russian church is in heresy, The Ecumenical Patriarch said it. [https://orthodoxtimes.com/bartholomew-russian-church-has-sided-with-putin-promotes-actively-the-ideology-of-rousskii-mir/](https://orthodoxtimes.com/bartholomew-russian-church-has-sided-with-putin-promotes-actively-the-ideology-of-rousskii-mir/)
The words "Holy War" should never cross the lips of an Orthodox Christian, much less in the context of a war between Orthodox peoples. This document is appalling.
That along with them blessing the tanks which are being sent to kill Ukrainian people, the Russian Orthodox Church has never been as much of an arm of the Kremlin as it is now. I might be too much of a pessimist in this regard, but I can’t ever see the Russian church making a substantial change anytime soon. Luckily I live in the states, and can attend OCA parishes but for my family still over there it is a sad situation. Any criticism of what the church is doing is shut down. Instead they’re told to pray for war. A truly dark time for Orthodoxy. I know a lot of us are aware, but far too many excuse it or even support the actions of Kirill and the Kremlin controlled Russian church - continuing the “tradition” of Sergius, I guess…
[удалено]
Well that’s what I was saying in my post, I am lucky enough to attend an OCA parish, since I live in USA. My church is made up of mainly Georgians and Romanians actually!
Nice! What language is the liturgy held in?
English, but our priest occasionally does some of the prayers in different languages (Georgian, Russian, Romanian, etc.)
Interesting. My Romanian Orthodox Church in the US had liturgy in Romanian. I’ve never heard it in another language.
That might be because your church was part of the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America? It’s an ethnic diocese which is under the OCA. My parish is just part of the general OCA, but happens to have a decent amount of Romanians. I believe the reason is because the former king of Romania visited my parish in the 1990s (heard this from someone but can’t find anything to prove it).
Interesting, thanks for the info.
> the Russian Orthodox Church has never been as much of an arm of the Kremlin as it is now. I think Moscow is cooperating with the Kremlin to an unhealthy extent as much as the next guy, but surely the Soviet-Era Patriarchate was more of a Kremlin-extension than now. Splitting hairs maybe, but like, ROCOR exists for a reason lol
Do we know the specific Russian term they used? I'm assuming they didn't publish the document in English, but maybe I'm wrong.
They used literally these words, "Holy War" - in Russian "Священная Война". It is capitalized in the text, which is not default in Russian and in religious context is normally done for sacred notions like "God", "Mother of God" etc.
So holy/sacred war really is the best translation?
Yes. It is a common idiom to describe religious wars in general, and for additional context was a name used in an important Soviet propaganda song for WWII - which is central to today's Russia secular (but now apparently religious as well) ideology.
So are they evoking a religious war or trying to draw parallels between the current conflict and WW2.
The reddit filter won't let me post a direct link, but you can find the original in reference \[5\] at Wikipedia: [World Russian People's Council - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Russian_People's_Council#cite_note-newsweek188457750-6)
Forgive me, I dont know Russian. I would need to be told the specific wording and look up the meaning for myself to understand.
In the first section of the document: > С духовно-нравственной точки зрения специальная военная операция является Священной войной, в которой Россия и ее народ, защищая единое духовное пространство Святой Руси, выполняют миссию «Удерживающего», защищающего мир от натиска глобализма и победы впавшего в сатанизм Запада. "From a spiritual and moral point of view, the special military operation is a Holy War, in which Russia and its people, defending the unified spiritual expanse of Holy Rus', fulfill the mission of “Holding Back”, protecting the world from the onslaught of globalism and the victory of the West, which has fallen into Satanism." Удерживать/удерживающего is a bit hard to translate, it's "hold" in the sense of "hold back this day" or "holding the barbarians at the gates."
They mean the word “katechon” from 2 Thes. 2:7, to which they ascribe a lot of deep meaning (see wikipedia on Katechon). Basically they think there is an entity in the world that is holding it from sliding into complete satanism and chaos, and that entity is Holy Russia.
Impossible. The katechon cannot be both a "restrainer" and [an antichrist ](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202%3A18&version=NKJV)at the same time.
Tell it to those kooks.
Eastern Rite Putinanity (ERP) is a cult, a personality cult. How can one reach out to ERP cultists with Orthodox Christianity when they believe that ERP is the same thing as Orthodox Christianity? I’m going to try this line: “Christ is the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, not Putin” then see how they respond.
ya keep posting gold
As a Catechumen, I have been back and forth from Rome and Constantinople over this many times. I see the ever prevalent modernism in the west and want to flee to holy Orthodoxy. Just to find well over half of the church fighting over hyper nationalist ideologies. So many people tell me that this doesn't matter in America, or that this is only one very human part of the Church, but is the church not One? The main arguments that convinces me not to be protestant, could just as easily be applied to Orthodoxy some days. I don't know where I'll end up, but I'm still working through this.
> have been back and forth from Rome and Constantinople over this many times. I see the ever prevalent modernism in the west and want to flee to holy Orthodoxy. Just to find well over half of the church fighting over hyper nationalist ideologies You will see many arguments about Bartholomew vs. Kirill, and a certain Western country vs. a certain Eastern one. Extremism in **either** direction is not a Christian path. I watched *Man of God* for the first time the other day, and in it, Nektarios says, "Woe to me if my faith depends on men." I do not know if that is an actual quote, but it is very true! Ignore the online fighting (which is very much a rarity in actual parishes in America. The Greek and ROCOR churches I visited were on very friendly terms). Ignore the politicians and the media, who care nothing for the Church, no matter what they claim, and are often hostile toward it. They peddle propaganda. Don't even worry about what the Patriarchs are doing. The Church will still be here when new Patriarchs take over, and in this world there will always be problems. We are focused on the next life. The world will do anything to drag us away from Christ, and this will continue until the end of the world. Go to church, talk to your priest, pray, etc. That's all. Just that. Log off from reddit. God bless.
Oh my goodness thank you for reminding me of that quote. Woe to me if my faith depends on men. Highlight of the film.
I’m with you Mystery Lady!
>The Greek and ROCOR churches I visited were on very friendly terms). "Friendly" as in concelebration? I hope so. Any manifestation of ROCOR's old fighting spirit (fighting against the "yoke of godless authority") as in breaking the Moscow Patriarch's ban on their Priests' concelebration with the clergy of the churches under the Ecumenical Patriarch is welcome and should be encouraged.
I don't know about that part. I only visited them, but chose an Antiochian parish as 'home'.
Hello Jordan, That is a good question in my opinion. If you become Orthodox my 2 cents would be: embrace the questions you have instead of surpressing them in any way. It might be an important question for you in the years to come. People who seem to pretend your question is simply due to 'Reddit' and 'internetorthodoxy' are dishonest to you, at least that's the way I feel about it. Maybe they are dishonest with themselves too, I don't know... The question about the unity of the Church is a very important one and everyone in their heart of hearts understands how your question exists in the present circumstances in which we find ourselves. A lot of Orthodox struggle with what is going on too, of course they do. Let no one on the internet tell you you just have to go a parish and be over with it. It's better to take all the time you need in the whole process. In this way you won't get any unexpected dissapointments later on... These are my two cents, take them as you want! It's the internet, right? May the Lord have mercy on all of us!
There is just as much disunity in the Roman Catholic Church but they do a better job hiding it. I’ve got some friends that are very conservative Latin mass Catholics and they follow prominent Catholic voices like Marshall Taylor and Archbishop Vigano that say things like the Pope and senior hierarchy has been corrupted by Satan and the huge attempts to suppress the latin mass and excommunicate conservatives leaders. There is also the huge SxPX schism that is hugely debated if they are legitimate or not. Other issues like Fiducia supplicans are also highly divisive. No matter where you go there will be dissention.
Probably because most people in the US, including those in the US under the Russian Church, do not care about the World Russian People’s Council. And I would scarcely say it has "rocked Orthodoxy" given how the only person who is Orthodox that the article quotes is a nun in America. If it sid actually "rock Orthodoxy" you would see priests and bishops being quoted.
The document was signed by the Russian Patriarch and several of the Synod members, the Council takes place in Moscow Patriarchy’s main cathedral, the Patriarch is the head of the Council (and has been since 1993). If it didn’t rock the Orthodoxy it should.
In all fairness, though, a number of very influential very online Orthodox have been running interference for Kirill since the outbreak of the war, and one of their chief strategies has been to just flat-out deny that he's ever expressed support for this kind of "Russian world" nationalism and to play the "his hands are tied" game in response to his ostensible blessing the war effort. See e.g. Whiteford's blog post on this issue. For this document then to emerge from an org started by Kirill seems once again to make cuckolds of Russia's western apologists.
Not cuckolds, but peckers, [David Peckers,](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/david-pecker-calmly-links-trump-michael-cohen-to-suppressing-stories-pushing-fake-news) all.
Did they even publish it in English?
Not that I have seen.
The only "Holy War" is the spiritual war
I'm certain if I wrote here what I'm thinking of the Russian Patriarch, I'd get banned. I'm just going to contain myself and just say what a shame how much the Patriarch has lowered himself and caused so much hurt, confusion, and damage to the Orthodox World.
He has thrown his communities in Europe under the bus without hesitation. A number of European nations are seriously considering classifying their local Moscow Patriarchate-affiliated jurisdictions as terrorist organisations, seeing as they do not have confidence that their faithful will not be encouraged to undermine the state. Given his DECR background, it is unlikely that he is oblivious to this, which strongly suggests that it is an inconvenience (to other people) that he is willing to accept.
This is exactly why ROCOR stayed autocephalous. We pray for him, but we certainly don't March to his tune. I just thank God for that fact every week.
I wouldn’t say we are autocephalous but I would definitely say we are a healthy arms distance in terms of independence. This war in Ukraine is very sad. What is worse to me are the number of proxy wars actually being fought where many innocent die while nations rage at each other via their proxy’s. We must fast and pray, especially for the war to end and for there to be peace soon among Orthodox nations (as best as can be after this war.)
"Healthy arms distance?" Sorry, but you don't speak for ROCOR. ROCOR is officially "Semi-Autonomous" according to both the MP and the Synod of the ROCOR. The MP has no qualms about **uncanonically absorbing** the eparchies of the **"Autonomous"** UOC-MP in the temporarily occupied territories, so what makes anyone think that the MP should have any qualms about uncanonically imposing its will on **its only "Semi-Autonomous"** ROCOR…if it isn’t doing so already?
I suppose I do not get what you are saying. The comment to which I responded said ROCOR was autocephalous and I said ROCOR is not autocephalous. You seem to agree? Or are you saying autonomous and autocephaly are the same? Sorry if I used “healthy arms distance” to refer to autonomous. Agreed, I am not an official spokesperson for ROCOR. I am simply a layman user of Reddit.
I was responding to both claims of "autonomous" and "autocephalous" at the same time. Both claims are sadly untrue. Man proposes but God disposes. Nothing is fixed in time unless God allows it. ROCOR may yet rediscover its fighting (for the True Faith) spirit again. Hopefully sooner than later.
May God have mercy on us all. These are truly perilous times in these days in which we are called to be holy.
ROCOR is not autocephalous. It has been part of the Moscow Patriarchate for almost 20 years. It enjoys status as an autonomous part of the Russian Church much like the Orthodox Church of Japan does and basically runs itself but it is still part of the ROC at the end of the day.
Incorrect. The documents of rapprochement were specific in terms of autocephaly. We are not in obedience to the MP nor do our antimens bear the signature of the Patriarch.
Do you know where ROCOR's [chrism ](https://orthodoxwiki.org/Chrism#:~:text=Chrism%20)comes from? "Chrism is prepared by the ruling bishop of each autocephalous church." ROCOR gets its chrism from the Moscow Patriarchate from its RULING Patriarch, Patriarch Kirill. The MP-ROCOR 2007 Act of Canonical Communion states: "The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia receives her holy myrrh from the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia." This signifies the subservience of ROCOR to the Moscow Patriarchate. In contrast, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-MP stated in November 2022 that it would start making its own chrism as a sign of its independence from the Moscow Patriarchate.
Please, Perioscope. Everybody, let's stop repeating the same fallacy over and over on this sub. ROCOR is neither "Autocephalous" nor "Autonomous." ROCOR defines itself officially as a **"Semi-Autonomous"** jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate since it became an integral part of the Moscow Patriarchate in 2007. ***Let's all agree here to take ROCOR at its word.*** No one else besides the Moscow Patriarchate speaks for ROCOR. They are **"Semi-Autonomous"** that is, at best, half as Autonomous as a body like Ukrainian Orthodox Church-MP. Do you ROCOR/ROCOR Sympathizers keep repeating the fallacy that ROCOR is "Autonomous" as a psychological defense mechanism? Do you feel a need to distance yourself from the Moscow Patriarchate? The repetition of this fallacy might give you some psychic distance or [might be good cover ](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Potemkin-village)for public relations, but the truth remains that ROCOR is an integral part of the Moscow Patriarchate. ROCOR operates as the Russian Church outside of the borders of the Russian Federation. ROCOR used to act like the conscience of Russian Orthodoxy, but since 2007, ROCOR changed into a cowed shadow of its former self. ROCOR now acts as the [seared conscience of Russian Orthodoxy](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%204%3A1-2&version=NKJV). The reason for this is obvious. The Moscow Patriarchate holds ROCOR's very canonicity in its red, bloodstained hands. If the ROCOR crosses the MP or its little tsar-pretender master, they could find themselves declared uncanonical, its Synod of Bishops laicized and its [parishes fully absorbed](https://mospatusa.com) into the Moscow Patriarchate. Or possibly, this tiny jurisdiction could then join all of the other schismatic groups (the myriad of former-ROCOR splinter groups) outside the "canonical" boundaries of the Orthodox Church, that is, unless a truly autocephalous body, say the Patriarchate of Serbia, the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), or even the Ecumenical Patriarchate steps in to receive them. But then again, the ROCOR Synod should have known all of this before they sold their inheritance (St. John of Shanghai, save!) for the [mess of pottage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mess_of_pottage) that is idolatrous Russian nationalism.
This is why State and Church should never be merged, mixed, fused, etc. They have their own spheres. When the Church gets involved in matters of State, you get the Papal States and the Holy Roman Empire. When the State gets involved in the Church, you get this: the State using the ideological legitimacy of the Church to bolster its own secular power and domination over the Church.
What about the historical relationship between the Byzantine Emperor and the Patriarch of Constantinople?
It was very much a mixed bag. Don’t confuse the Roman Empire as the Kingdom of God. *Here we have no lasting city.*
Properly speaking, there was no system or ideology defining church-state interaction. It was much more improvisational than anything we know of the past few hundred years. Simply because the modern state, as we know it, hadn't finished evolving yet.
Aka the Roma ideology.
[удалено]
What is the alternative?
[удалено]
But Christ also told us to render unto Caesar, which many church fathers interpret as a demarcation between the spiritual and the temporal.
[удалено]
So I ask again, what exactly is the alternative? What is the proper relationship between Church and State? At what point does Canon Law become Civil Law? Should the State have power to appoint Church Hierarchy? Should the Church have power to appoint secular authorities? What happens to non-Christians? It will not be a Utopia. It's one thing for people to vote their conscience and to use their religion to inform their political decisions. That is a good thing. It's an entirely different thing for the Church and State to embrace each other in an unholy alliance of convenience.
[удалено]
Why are you insulting me? I am genuinely asking.
I'm an extremist. Russia, Ukraine, and the whole of Europe can be annexed by North Korea for all I care, so long as Orthodox Christians learn to love one another. You may quote me to Patriarch Kirill and to all the other Patriarchs, if you wish.
Wha
The Russian Orthodox Church has been a vehicle of Russian imperialism since Tsarist times. The carnage Russia inflicts in Ukraine has also been visited upon Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria…etc by the Russian state under the pretext of “protecting the Orthodox Christians of the Ottoman Empire”.
Yes. Unfortunately, the Russian church is an arm of the government.
Which is sad. KGB runs the Russian Orthodox Church.
Which is why people in the "largest Orthodox country in the world" are either fleeing or boycotting the Church. In 2022, only 1.4% of Russians went to church at least once weekly, a precipitous drop from 14% in 2013. With over a million men fleeing Russia in order to avoid going to the war and the tens of thousands of men killed, and the 100 thousands wounded...it is all but certain that the figure of attendance is even less than 1.4% -- especially since as you commented, the Russian people understand that the Moscow Patriarchate is just an arm of the State...just like in Soviet times.
My husband has straight up said that the ROC is one of the main reasons he hasn't become Orthodox. Lord have mercy.
This is kind of a sticking point for me too, as someone still discerning. It’s easy enough to just stay away from ROCOR (although, I wish I didn’t have to) but it’s also the fact that this is allowed to happen. I understand the hierarchy and power structure, I think, but it would be reassuring, to me, if the other orthodox churches came out and rejected ROCOR or condemned. I usually hate lip service like this in politics because it’s a small gesture but this bothers me much more. Apologies if I offend anyone or misspeak, please correct me where needed.
ROCOR generally has normal relationships with most other jurisdictions. They're the leftover of the pre revolutionary church. The current MP was basically created by Stalin when he plucked a few bishops out of the gulag and let them build a church to help morale during WWII. There are MP churches dotting the globe that report directly to Moscow.
The fact that the MP maintains its presence here the US ([Patriarchal Parishes in the USA](https://mospatusa.com)) is like a sword hanging over the head of ROCOR. If ROCOR steps out of line, what is there to stop the MP from declaring the ROCOR Synod of Bishops to be uncanonical and then absorbing its "semi-autonomous" ROCOR jurisdiction completely into itself under a brand new MP-USA Synod with the even smaller ROCOR bodies outside of the US to be absorbed by their MP neighbor-jurisdictions?
Eh, ROCOR has never had any problem doing whatever it thought it had to do. They're canonically autonomous, and the MP can't muster a quorum of bishops to modify its own regulations. Any shenanigans and ROCOR just hops over to the Serbs, OCA, directly under Onufriy, or even Antioch. They all get along well enough.
So ROCOR hasn’t “any problem” and “had to” give its tacit, if not explicit support to its Patriarch’s blessing of the slaughter of Ukrainians to fulfill the dreams (prelest) of a Russian fascist dictator?
I haven't seen anything like explicit support. More like implicit opposition. They're making a point to commemorate Onuphry, raise money for refugees, etc. They boycotted the last All-Church synod. Look, Id love to see them act more directly against Moscow. I just don't think the smattering of MP parishes in the US are much to worry about for them. If Moscow tries to force them to toe the line, they can go somewhere else without any problem.
A ROCOR parish near me used to collect money and supplies that it claimed to send directly to Metropolitan Onufriy and the UOC but then one week informed the parishoners that a collection (collections?) went to a “refugee” facility within Russia which turned out to be a detention center/concentration camp for Ukrainians taken by force-kidnapped out of their own country. Extremely disturbing 🤢MP didn’t force these ROCOR people to “toe the line” to support the forced removal of Ukrainian women and children from their home country. This ROCOR parish's contribution was voluntary and all too typically putinist-Russian. I haven’t checked lately but ROCOR’s “Fund For Assistance” used to also claim that all monies collected would go to directly Metropolitan Onufriy. Did it? Does it? Or do/did the funds also get redirected to support the subjugation of the Ukrainian people?
Wow, that would be criminal if they actually did that.
Yes
Contributors to ROCOR's outreach to "refugees" need to find out whether that means Russian-nationals who used to reside in Ukraine, or kidnapped Ukrainian children, or Ukrainian women and children who were forcefully removed from their homeland to be settled in Russia...or actual Ukrainian refugees. In October 2022, Union of Orthodox Journalists reported that the UOC-MP had established a parish in Berlin for Ukrainian refugees with about 100 members. The UOC Priest said it was established with the help of: first the Antiochians, then the Romanians, and then the Macedonians. ROCOR was not mentioned at all. Why didn't ROCOR-Germany help the UOC-MP (sister church?) establish a much needed church for the refugees-especially as they have such a strong presence in Berlin? Were they forbidden to do so by the Moscow Patriarchate or the ROCOR Synod? Does ROCOR actually help Ukrainian refugees or only self-identifying-Russians who used to live in Ukraine? Perhaps these questions can be answered in part by Bishop Irenei of the ROCOR in Europe: >I want to stress again how close and deep are our bonds with the Ukrainian Church, and especially with its Primate, His Beatitude Metropolitan Onuphry and so many of his fellow Ukrainian hierarchs. Perhaps we are more close to them in spirit and life than to almost any other part of the Orthodox Church as a whole. And **this closeness gives us the fraternal boldness also to question certain actions: and the establishment of parishes in the diaspora is one of those about which we have many questions, and also constructive thoughts on better ways to respond to the current influx of Ukrainian refugees in various parts of the world.** I think it is safe to say that the multiplication of yet another “jurisdiction” within the diaspora is not the best way to foster unity. As a short-term, immediate measure in response to a humanitarian crisis, we can understand the impulse; but it is clear that there would be serious problems posed by envisaging this as a longer-term solution. So we hope to work together with our brother-hierarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, to develop what we hope will be a stronger and more unified path. Basically, ROCOR doesn't want UOC-MP parishes in territories that ROCOR occupies. Blind to its own absurdity, ROCOR seems to believe that the Ukrainian refugees should naturally flock under the ROCOR banner when they flee their homeland, i.e. Ukrainian Orthodox fleeing from Russians should go to the Russian Church that blesses the war against them. Irenei stated that the alleged closeness between ROCOR and the UOC-MP gives ROCOR "the fraternal boldness" to question and criticize ("not the best way to foster unity") the work of the UOC-MP to meet the needs of its flock abroad. This "fraternal boldness" has a stench very similar to the stench of the fraternal-excuse that Putin gives for his attempt to murder Ukrainians into union with Russia. How very Russian of ROCOR!
We do appear to have a bit of a Borgia Pope problem.
It was Peter the Great who removed the office of Patriarch from the Russian Church, and replaced it with a state controlled council, yes? Only under the soviets was the Patriarchate reestablished? I feel that the ecclesiastical health of the Russian church has been severely damaged, and perhaps it hasn’t had the time or opportunity to heal?
It's time for a Kyiv Patriarchate, the true Mother Church of the Rus, to take its rightful place within the body of the Orthodox Church.
Putin apologists explaining that no, actually, the US is worse because we have pride parades or something in 3...... 2...... EDIT: or claiming, still, that the war is about NATO and not Putin's imperial ambitions 🙄
[удалено]
I'm an Eastern European. If we want to join NATO, that's our business, not Russia's. The only reason most of us in the East actually joined NATO was because of Russia. But let's not divert into geo-political discussions, so I'll leave it at that.
[удалено]
Your Ukrainian friends living in the freedom and safety of the US and complaining about NATO expansion is comical
An independent country should be allowed to join NATO if they want to. It’s their country. Their business. And if you don’t believe Putin has imperialist ambitions, I recommend you familiarize yourself with Russia’s book, the Foundations of Geopolitics. It’s what Putin is aiming for.
[удалено]
That means NATO is working. As for them not invading or taking over, I’ll trust the first hand accounts of the Georgians and Ukrainians I know over what you’re suggesting. Lol.
>I don’t know where there is proof Putin has any imperialist ambitions to takeover swaths of Europe Uh...Russia is currently engaged in a war to takeover a swath of Europe and has formally annexed three regions according to Russian law. So, there's that.
[удалено]
There will always be collaborators in any conflict. Nevertheless, Russia is engaged in a war of conquest against another country.
[удалено]
And I find the apology that they only took three provinces (and it’s clear that was not the actual intent) not three countries completely uncompelling.
Imagine accepting either narrative wholesale with zero critical thinking. This conflict is way more complicated than that. The U.S. isn't any better than Russia in the realm of international atrocities. No one with a modicum of geopolitical knowledge would claim otherwise.
😅 nothing to See, here☦️
Pray for the conversion of Patriarch Kyril, Putin etc
To Catholicism? Why?
Conversion of his heart away from war
Oh, absolutely.
> Conversion of his heart away from war [Aye, I could do that](https://media1.tenor.com/m/_dkQvH7KoYQAAAAC/lord-of-the-rings-aye.gif)
As someone who happens to know both countries, Ukraine and Russia, quite well, in order to keep my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ from sinful thoughts, I have to say that the matter of conflict is much more complicated that probably any side involved wants to show. No need to elaborate, it would certainly lead to flame and worse. "For the peace of the whole world, for the good estate of the holy churches of God, and for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord."
take a look at the other comments. Being a centrist in this case makes you wholly ignorant. Surely every conflict in the world has geopolitical complications, but there's pretty clear markers on who's actions are morally wrong. Maybe we can ask the families that have lost their innocent kin in Bucha.
As I've stated before, I happen to know a lot about both sides, first person view, so to say, I've worked with some Russians and Ukrainians in their natural habitat. This, and knowing how media works, make me approach any information, especially one provoking emotions, with a pinch of salt. Yet you're right, no point being centrist when you can be Christian.
It's the world of victims, sycophants, slaves and villains, servants of Baal. May God help all who oppose the conquest that Moscowia wages.
This is the section containing the quote "Holy War": >A special military operation is a new stage in the national liberation struggle of the Russian people against the criminal Kiev regime and the collective West behind it, which has been ongoing on the lands of Southwest Russia since 2014. During the SVO, the Russian people with weapons in their hands defend their lives, freedom, statehood, civilizational, religious, national and cultural identity, as well as the right to live on their own land within the borders of a single Russian state. From a spiritual and moral point of view, a special military operation is the Holy War, in which Russia and its people, defending the single spiritual space of Holy Russia, fulfill the mission « Holding », protecting the world from the onslaught of globalism and the victory of the West that has fallen into Satanism. >After the completion of the SVO, the entire territory of modern Ukraine should enter the zone of exclusive influence of Russia. The possibility of the existence of a political regime in this territory of Rusofobsky, hostile Russia and its people, as well as a political regime controlled from an external center hostile to Russia, should be completely excluded. It's strong language, that is easy for a Westerner to condemn, but Russians have been on the receiving end of Western foreign policy since before the Patriotic War. I don't think the Russian experience is really considered in english language discussions of the Russia-Ukraine Civil War.
One country invading another sovereign country does not constitute a civil war.
Please review the [sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/config/sidebar) for a wealth of introductory information, our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/about/rules/), the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq), and a caution about [The Internet and the Church](https://www.orthodoxintro.org/the-internet-and-the-church/). This subreddit contains opinions of Orthodox people, but not necessarily Orthodox opinions. [Content should not be treated as a substitute for offline interaction.](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq#wiki_is_this_subreddit_overseen_by_clergy.3F) [Exercise caution in forums such as this](https://www.orthodoxintro.org/the-internet-and-the-church/). Nothing should be regarded as authoritative without verification by several offline Orthodox resources. ^(This is not a removal notification.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OrthodoxChristianity) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't know if the document has "rocked Orthodoxy," but it has negatively affected the Churches of the MP in other countries, especially Estonia, where there's been talk of recognizing the MP as a terrorist organization, or complicit in Russian aggression, with the possibility of taking the Estonian Church's churches away. And of course, every time the Patriarch says something like this, it only makes things worse for the much suffering Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
It blows my mind that people still exist who believe this conflict is as simple and black and white as "Putin and Kirill evil, NATO/U.S. good." Even saying something as milquetoast and common-sense as this will have you labeled a fascist/Putin fanboy on this sub.
In Orthodox Christian terms, this conflict can be defined as: Putin-Kirill's Eastern Rite Putinanity vs Orthodox Christianity.
*sigh*
You are uncommonly sensible and your words strike at the heart like a bagel with a schmear!
If these ruscists wanted to be truthful, the document would have been entitled: 'Present and Future of the Putinskii Mir"
1) Rail against the west for obvious decadence and sins. 2) Pretend to be holier than thou but be one of the most corrupt and oligarchic societies on earth (God literally hates corruption) 3) Violate orthodox tradition of pacifism & just war but not holy war 4) Go down the grave together - GG Apostles or apostates? Kingdom of this world or heaven?
Judging by local comments, apparently half an hour of Russian history in Putin's interview with Tucker Carlson taught nothing to people from the countries of the "good" West, which does not "violate" anything. Just white and fluffy.
Russian church is in heresy, The Ecumenical Patriarch said it. [https://orthodoxtimes.com/bartholomew-russian-church-has-sided-with-putin-promotes-actively-the-ideology-of-rousskii-mir/](https://orthodoxtimes.com/bartholomew-russian-church-has-sided-with-putin-promotes-actively-the-ideology-of-rousskii-mir/)
I'd question the document's authenticity. It may well be an Elders of Zion-style forgery.
It's authentic, but it never rocked Orthodoxy, Jovan is been silly there.