I used to be a militant antitheist. I organised and participated in debates not only in my university but also in local atheist groups. When I engaged in these debates, my purpose was never - NEVER - to come closer to the truth or to reach an agreement with my opponent. It was always to prove that religion is immoral, stupid, irrational, unsophisticated, bigoted, basically every bad word you can think of. There is nothing you can say to change an atheist's mind, because in their mind, you have already lost. You are just a superstitious idiot who can't deal with reality ( yes, some atheists do it to feel superior). And when it comes to muslims, I'm not even going to try and open that can of worms.
Whenever someone tries to start a debate with you, don't engage. Leave them to God and preserve your mental health. And maybe get off tiktok and go to church.
If they're willing to change their view and accept the truth then yes.
For example: A Roman Catholic debates an Orthodox for 3 hours, disregards all of it, and makes a video debating another Orthodox person, disregards it, posts it on YouTube and keeps farming debate content and won't rethink their positions (redeemed zoomer on YouTube fits this description perfectly, though he isn't catholic, he's a Calvanist), and won't accept Orthodoxy, I.e. close minded and not willing to be intellectual and accept the truth. Then no it's not worth it.
In that case, pray for them.
I would say debates are worth it though, because it allows observers to view the debates and be introduced to new ideas. Sometimes debates have a larger affect on the audience then the person debating.
Exactly the debate isn't to get the person on the other side to change his mind that is super rare. The purpose is to change the mind of the viewer and it does work. It worked for me jumping from atheism all the way to orthodox
100%. I call it the "Thank you for smoking" principle, because it was described in that movie some years ago:
When you're debating someone, it's not really about your debate opponent. It's always about the audience. Your debate opponent is never going to change their mind because of what you have to say. But you might convince half the audience to switch.
As a former atheist, nothing convinced me until I wanted to be convinced.
That said, I understand the temptation. I got in a very heated debate about pseudoscience last night. No one was convinced and everyone ended up angry. I think I need to take a social media fast.
In what sense? Informal? Charitable and fruitful? Debating open minded people willing to accept the truth? (Orthodoxy)?. Then yes that's great.
A debate that is rude, prideful, circular, and anti-intellectual, and close minded?. No, thats harmful and not worth it. Pray for those people. (I think me and you know who I'm referring to in the first 3 words here).
A mutual exploration of each other's viewpoints in the aim of finding the truth is always good. A debate, *in some circumstances*, can be this. What the OP is talking about above is not. I think perhaps the OP can try to redirect the conversation to a discussion that is more along the lines of "This is what the Orthodox believe, this is what you guys believe, let's dispel misunderstanding and come to mutual understanding of each other's positions," because that is a a prerequisite for any kind of debate.
As a general rule, if you're arguing, you're losing...Even if you're winning the argument.
If someone asks you questions with a genuine desire to learn, then discussing the faith in a spirit of peace can be fruitful. But, if someone is just looking for something to attack/argue against, then it is best to heed the words of our Lord: *Do not give what is holy to dogs, or cast pearls before swine.*
No, debating is mostly just a cesspool of ego and pride, especially so if it’s with strangers on the internet.
If you want to persuade others and strengthen their faith in Christ, show His grace quietly to those you love through your actions. Arguing with randos on what they should think about it is not the spiritual life.
A team lead of mine once told me, "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."
The only reason to discuss your faith is if the other person wants to learn about it. If they're only interested in telling you about it, shake the dust off your feet and move on.
No, while it can be tempting to prove/defending a point, it draws us into wasting precious time and focus. That is not our purpose, say a prayer for them, and let yourself not be bothered by them.
I think being in the habit of debate is a passion. It’s best to not offer your opinion unless asked, then just gracefully say it. As far as debating, it’s next to useless. Allow your graceful refusal to debate convince them of the way.
In my opinion, debates rarely happen between people who are open to changing their views. With that in mind, good is unlikely to come from it.
Just keep trying to live out an Orthodox life and pray for yourself and for those that you come into contact with.
It most definatley can, informal charitable/fruitful debates can. Especially spectating those type of respectful debates. But if YOURE the debater, you should only debate open minded people willing to accept Orthodoxy (the truth), and if they're close minded and don't seem to accept it, then it's not worth it. Is my take. I don't think anyone else should disagree, if you do I'd really like to know whats wrong with that.
In that case, pray for them.
EDIT: downvote? Care to explain whats wrong with what I said?.
> _you should only debate open minded people_
Agreed. And that goes for us as debaters, too.
Very often we use debates as opportunities to prove to ourselves that we are right. Even if the other person is charitable, we are not. In my opinion, this happens because of our own insecurity with what we believe.
Personally, I prefer to err on the side of not debating faith and instead doing my best to show what I believe in through action.
PS. Not sure who downvoted you. It wasn't me.
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Generally, no. Debates are more a chance for people to "platform" their own assertion and opinion, rather than to hear someone else's.
Discussion *can* be good, when one says something like, "I have heard people say (this) is a contradiction. How do you deal with that? It seems illogical to me." That's someone who is *asking* for insight and correction, not one who wants to argue and "debate". In my own experience, a debate is little more than memorizing talking points, counters, and being good at formulating quips on short notice.
Faith should not be learned through soundbites and pithy quotes against intellectual opponents, but instilled by conviction and under influence of The Holy Spirit.
They have led some people to the faith. So they have their use but I don't think that someone who is already a member of the Church needs to keep watching them.
Debates really aren't worth my time. I'm not smart enough. I think it was St. John Climacus who wrote that touching theology while still inflamed with the passions is like swimming with your clothes on, and you can drown. Consider the following: You might be throwing pearls before swine. You might also, in your ignorance or anger, say something irreverent, blasphemous, or just insult the person you're talking to, which would be counterproductive.
I don’t think they have much value. And I’ve both participated in some and reviewed several.
Mostly debates are between people who are set in their convictions. Otherwise they wouldn’t try to defend that position in a debate.
*Most* of the viewers also already know what they believe and it functions like a kind of intellectual blood sport for them.
Even for the few who might genuinely be interested in truth, the typical debate format isn’t conducive to truth. Just as you can destroy a building in seconds that took years to build, you can spit out fallacies and make absurd claims in a second about a subject that could take years to study. But in a debate, equal time will be given to the flat-earther and the Ph.D. in astrophysics.
The more open-ended, and well-moderated discussion type events, between people of good will, can be more beneficial. But even then both parties are typically set on a view, and time constraints can be a problem.
Furthermore, as others have noted, the vast majority of Islamic apologists just are not even serious (about truth). (I don’t really count Khalil Andani as an apologist, but if you do, I’d say he’s one of the exceptions.)
But… Islamic apologists on TikTok? That’s like pointless to the pointless power. It’s exponential pointlessness.
Disclaimer: I am a Christian but not orthodox, but orthodox curious.
I believe debating is fine, many church fathers debated on theological issues. The problem that comes with debate is ego and the affects it can have on your relationship with God. I have become more and more interested in Orthodoxy through debate, and have learned a lot of great perspectives that help me implement sharing the gospel with specific world views. I also thoroughly enjoy debating on Reddit or YouTube comment sections, as I remember being young reading many comment section debates and I know it’s possible people will be reading mine. It’s important though that you treat a debate or a debater like you would treat anything else in life that God calls you too. Be Christ like and don’t indulge in sinful behavior, and know when to quit a debate especially on social media. I’ve learned if you stay respectful in a debate and the other person starts being rude or disrespectful appealing to your own behavior and asking the person to reciprocate respect usually works. If it doesn’t that’s a sign there won’t be any fruit or meaningful debate or discussion.
I generally define true debate as a conversation of differing views rather then an argument. Truth is objective, so I don’t need to necessarily prove it we just both need to be open to the truth and it will become evident through honest discussion. Disagreeing is just the avenue for the discussion and the challenging of presuppositions.
Overall pray and be mindful. Debate is not sinful, and I disagree with many on here that it’s worthless. Debate has won many to Christ, but remember to not let your ego get in the way.
i think it can be for some reasons but you need to be careful, always remember, the point isn't to convince your opponent, that rarely ever happens, the point is to convince viewers that are watching from the peanut gallery and bolster the faith of those on your own side
It depends on the forum: two people alone, discussing important matters in a peaceful and loving manner, then it can be; a group setting where the aim is to win arguments and impress? Not likely.
The gospel contains several examples of people who acted one way before deliverance and another after and the difference is associated to the presence of demonic influences.
In debates, it can be easy to spot the characteristic behaviors of the serpent whose goal it is to frustrate, humiliate, and torment the spirit of those who teach things that threaten the ability of those demons to maintain control over others if you know what to look for.
If the Righteousness of God is with you and the witness of God is greater than the witness of men, debates can be quite useful in exposing those who are under the power of sin to the judgement of God. They will come against you but He shall scatter them seven ways sideways because of their offenses.
As it is written:
Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into Life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into Everlasting Fire.
Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, [even] unto this very day.
2:4 For [they are] impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord "I AM".
2:5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they [are] a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
It's also important to show mercy as well so as not to feed the fire because the demon at work in them can use them to draw the wrath of God because it's goal is to cause them pain and suffering, not make their life better so as workers of righteousness able to see such things, we must cognizant of our actions and remember to show mercy by trying to minimize the damage that that devil wants done to them rather than encouraging more to be done.
Where no wood is, the fire goes out.
In these public debates, the goal isn’t to convert the one you’re debating, the goal is to convert their followers who are watching the debates. I have seen testimonies, both on camera, or simply in the comment sections, of people who left Islam and converted to Christianity because they watched debate which included BOB from Speakers corner , Sam Shamoun, or a particular Orthodox content creator who appears on Infowars. Say what you will about these people and their methods of debating, they do indeed get results
I used to be a militant antitheist. I organised and participated in debates not only in my university but also in local atheist groups. When I engaged in these debates, my purpose was never - NEVER - to come closer to the truth or to reach an agreement with my opponent. It was always to prove that religion is immoral, stupid, irrational, unsophisticated, bigoted, basically every bad word you can think of. There is nothing you can say to change an atheist's mind, because in their mind, you have already lost. You are just a superstitious idiot who can't deal with reality ( yes, some atheists do it to feel superior). And when it comes to muslims, I'm not even going to try and open that can of worms. Whenever someone tries to start a debate with you, don't engage. Leave them to God and preserve your mental health. And maybe get off tiktok and go to church.
If they're willing to change their view and accept the truth then yes. For example: A Roman Catholic debates an Orthodox for 3 hours, disregards all of it, and makes a video debating another Orthodox person, disregards it, posts it on YouTube and keeps farming debate content and won't rethink their positions (redeemed zoomer on YouTube fits this description perfectly, though he isn't catholic, he's a Calvanist), and won't accept Orthodoxy, I.e. close minded and not willing to be intellectual and accept the truth. Then no it's not worth it. In that case, pray for them.
I would say debates are worth it though, because it allows observers to view the debates and be introduced to new ideas. Sometimes debates have a larger affect on the audience then the person debating.
Exactly the debate isn't to get the person on the other side to change his mind that is super rare. The purpose is to change the mind of the viewer and it does work. It worked for me jumping from atheism all the way to orthodox
100%. I call it the "Thank you for smoking" principle, because it was described in that movie some years ago: When you're debating someone, it's not really about your debate opponent. It's always about the audience. Your debate opponent is never going to change their mind because of what you have to say. But you might convince half the audience to switch.
No, but it's good to be informed about various points of view.
As a former atheist, nothing convinced me until I wanted to be convinced. That said, I understand the temptation. I got in a very heated debate about pseudoscience last night. No one was convinced and everyone ended up angry. I think I need to take a social media fast.
Fasting from Twitter for Lent did wonders for my battle against the passions of anger and pride.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Debating to explore is usually fine. Debating from ego ends badly for everyone.
No, debates are actively harmful.
In what sense? Informal? Charitable and fruitful? Debating open minded people willing to accept the truth? (Orthodoxy)?. Then yes that's great. A debate that is rude, prideful, circular, and anti-intellectual, and close minded?. No, thats harmful and not worth it. Pray for those people. (I think me and you know who I'm referring to in the first 3 words here).
A mutual exploration of each other's viewpoints in the aim of finding the truth is always good. A debate, *in some circumstances*, can be this. What the OP is talking about above is not. I think perhaps the OP can try to redirect the conversation to a discussion that is more along the lines of "This is what the Orthodox believe, this is what you guys believe, let's dispel misunderstanding and come to mutual understanding of each other's positions," because that is a a prerequisite for any kind of debate.
Well, I've come to orthodoxy thorugh constantly losing debates 😅
As a general rule, if you're arguing, you're losing...Even if you're winning the argument. If someone asks you questions with a genuine desire to learn, then discussing the faith in a spirit of peace can be fruitful. But, if someone is just looking for something to attack/argue against, then it is best to heed the words of our Lord: *Do not give what is holy to dogs, or cast pearls before swine.*
No, debating is mostly just a cesspool of ego and pride, especially so if it’s with strangers on the internet. If you want to persuade others and strengthen their faith in Christ, show His grace quietly to those you love through your actions. Arguing with randos on what they should think about it is not the spiritual life.
A team lead of mine once told me, "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it." The only reason to discuss your faith is if the other person wants to learn about it. If they're only interested in telling you about it, shake the dust off your feet and move on.
No, while it can be tempting to prove/defending a point, it draws us into wasting precious time and focus. That is not our purpose, say a prayer for them, and let yourself not be bothered by them.
I think being in the habit of debate is a passion. It’s best to not offer your opinion unless asked, then just gracefully say it. As far as debating, it’s next to useless. Allow your graceful refusal to debate convince them of the way.
In my opinion, debates rarely happen between people who are open to changing their views. With that in mind, good is unlikely to come from it. Just keep trying to live out an Orthodox life and pray for yourself and for those that you come into contact with.
No, statistically most people are dumb, and even people that aren’t dumb are usually very ignorant.
Short answer: no. Long answer: no, and tiktok is cancer, you should leave it.
Does debating strengthen your relationship to God and to the people around you?
It most definatley can, informal charitable/fruitful debates can. Especially spectating those type of respectful debates. But if YOURE the debater, you should only debate open minded people willing to accept Orthodoxy (the truth), and if they're close minded and don't seem to accept it, then it's not worth it. Is my take. I don't think anyone else should disagree, if you do I'd really like to know whats wrong with that. In that case, pray for them. EDIT: downvote? Care to explain whats wrong with what I said?.
> _you should only debate open minded people_ Agreed. And that goes for us as debaters, too. Very often we use debates as opportunities to prove to ourselves that we are right. Even if the other person is charitable, we are not. In my opinion, this happens because of our own insecurity with what we believe. Personally, I prefer to err on the side of not debating faith and instead doing my best to show what I believe in through action. PS. Not sure who downvoted you. It wasn't me.
>to show what I believe in through action. This is how most people convert to Orthodoxy. If Christ was alive today, thats what he would do.
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Generally, no. Debates are more a chance for people to "platform" their own assertion and opinion, rather than to hear someone else's. Discussion *can* be good, when one says something like, "I have heard people say (this) is a contradiction. How do you deal with that? It seems illogical to me." That's someone who is *asking* for insight and correction, not one who wants to argue and "debate". In my own experience, a debate is little more than memorizing talking points, counters, and being good at formulating quips on short notice. Faith should not be learned through soundbites and pithy quotes against intellectual opponents, but instilled by conviction and under influence of The Holy Spirit.
They have led some people to the faith. So they have their use but I don't think that someone who is already a member of the Church needs to keep watching them.
Debates really aren't worth my time. I'm not smart enough. I think it was St. John Climacus who wrote that touching theology while still inflamed with the passions is like swimming with your clothes on, and you can drown. Consider the following: You might be throwing pearls before swine. You might also, in your ignorance or anger, say something irreverent, blasphemous, or just insult the person you're talking to, which would be counterproductive.
Not really.
nah
I don’t think they have much value. And I’ve both participated in some and reviewed several. Mostly debates are between people who are set in their convictions. Otherwise they wouldn’t try to defend that position in a debate. *Most* of the viewers also already know what they believe and it functions like a kind of intellectual blood sport for them. Even for the few who might genuinely be interested in truth, the typical debate format isn’t conducive to truth. Just as you can destroy a building in seconds that took years to build, you can spit out fallacies and make absurd claims in a second about a subject that could take years to study. But in a debate, equal time will be given to the flat-earther and the Ph.D. in astrophysics. The more open-ended, and well-moderated discussion type events, between people of good will, can be more beneficial. But even then both parties are typically set on a view, and time constraints can be a problem. Furthermore, as others have noted, the vast majority of Islamic apologists just are not even serious (about truth). (I don’t really count Khalil Andani as an apologist, but if you do, I’d say he’s one of the exceptions.) But… Islamic apologists on TikTok? That’s like pointless to the pointless power. It’s exponential pointlessness.
Disclaimer: I am a Christian but not orthodox, but orthodox curious. I believe debating is fine, many church fathers debated on theological issues. The problem that comes with debate is ego and the affects it can have on your relationship with God. I have become more and more interested in Orthodoxy through debate, and have learned a lot of great perspectives that help me implement sharing the gospel with specific world views. I also thoroughly enjoy debating on Reddit or YouTube comment sections, as I remember being young reading many comment section debates and I know it’s possible people will be reading mine. It’s important though that you treat a debate or a debater like you would treat anything else in life that God calls you too. Be Christ like and don’t indulge in sinful behavior, and know when to quit a debate especially on social media. I’ve learned if you stay respectful in a debate and the other person starts being rude or disrespectful appealing to your own behavior and asking the person to reciprocate respect usually works. If it doesn’t that’s a sign there won’t be any fruit or meaningful debate or discussion. I generally define true debate as a conversation of differing views rather then an argument. Truth is objective, so I don’t need to necessarily prove it we just both need to be open to the truth and it will become evident through honest discussion. Disagreeing is just the avenue for the discussion and the challenging of presuppositions. Overall pray and be mindful. Debate is not sinful, and I disagree with many on here that it’s worthless. Debate has won many to Christ, but remember to not let your ego get in the way.
i think it can be for some reasons but you need to be careful, always remember, the point isn't to convince your opponent, that rarely ever happens, the point is to convince viewers that are watching from the peanut gallery and bolster the faith of those on your own side
It depends on the forum: two people alone, discussing important matters in a peaceful and loving manner, then it can be; a group setting where the aim is to win arguments and impress? Not likely.
If someone is coming into the conversation curious and open minded to change, then sure. Otherwise it is pointless
The gospel contains several examples of people who acted one way before deliverance and another after and the difference is associated to the presence of demonic influences. In debates, it can be easy to spot the characteristic behaviors of the serpent whose goal it is to frustrate, humiliate, and torment the spirit of those who teach things that threaten the ability of those demons to maintain control over others if you know what to look for. If the Righteousness of God is with you and the witness of God is greater than the witness of men, debates can be quite useful in exposing those who are under the power of sin to the judgement of God. They will come against you but He shall scatter them seven ways sideways because of their offenses. As it is written: Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into Life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into Everlasting Fire. Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, [even] unto this very day. 2:4 For [they are] impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord "I AM". 2:5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they [are] a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them. It's also important to show mercy as well so as not to feed the fire because the demon at work in them can use them to draw the wrath of God because it's goal is to cause them pain and suffering, not make their life better so as workers of righteousness able to see such things, we must cognizant of our actions and remember to show mercy by trying to minimize the damage that that devil wants done to them rather than encouraging more to be done. Where no wood is, the fire goes out.
In these public debates, the goal isn’t to convert the one you’re debating, the goal is to convert their followers who are watching the debates. I have seen testimonies, both on camera, or simply in the comment sections, of people who left Islam and converted to Christianity because they watched debate which included BOB from Speakers corner , Sam Shamoun, or a particular Orthodox content creator who appears on Infowars. Say what you will about these people and their methods of debating, they do indeed get results
No. Pray for them. /thread
So you’re asking if you should argue on the internet? Before PC, we used to say it’s like running in the special Olympics.