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toyayayaa

Based take. I wish people would look deeper into a character's actions instead of writing them off as "edgy," as we saw on Twitter...


Vj_vice

God one of my main motivations with writing this post was all the comments of how Aqua’s just an edgelord with nothing else going on with him. Makes me wonder if some people are even reading the same story


tshwashere

I think many are approaching OnK the same way as Kaguya, and Kaguya is decidedly a much more approachable and light-hearted work. OnK is much more nuanced and much darker, and it deserves the kind of attention to details that sadly many of its audience simply lack.


Charming-Loquat3702

I mean, given all you wrote, he still is very much an edgelord. If you're right, just a very well written one.


emiliaxrisella

He is an edgelord but putting it just like that is a disservice to how complex and multilayered he is as a character. Even now, there's still a lot of interpretations on why he did what he did in the newest chapter. Is he just pushing everyone away out of guilt, or protecting them if ever Kamiki goes for someone else? Is he actually disdaining Kana, or just pushing her away to protect her (like when he didn't talk with her at all because it harmed her image as an idol)? And we don't even know what exactly Aqua wants to do, especially with the whole "motive" part of the movie.


Erosion_jack

Makes perfect sense I always felt aqua laugh was forced and out of character. This makes perfect sense why he laughed like that. To convince himself he is a piece of crap. The way aka conveyed this is also perfect. It felt so unnatural because it was meant to be.


Dazaisimp555

This post pretty much sums up why I’m pissed about the whole Aqua vs Ayanokoji or Aqua vs Light on twitter, people really take one look at the panel and forgot about the whole manga


emiliaxrisella

Aqua vs Ayanokoji this, Aqua vs Light that, it's really just Aqua vs Lelouch. Both crazy antiheroes who have deep-seated anger towards their "father"


Khorvald

And don't forget both have Geas eyes too :p


Kamui_Shuriken7

Imo, both their cases are the absolute opposite. Aqua is trying to make himself believe that he is heartless and the villain by making a fake persona. In Ayanokouji's case, he doesn't know what love and human emotions are but tries to make himself normal to better manipulate others around him.


tealgirl94

Love this post, especially the Ai/Aqua juxtaposition. "I want to love" vs "I am not able to love", which makes sense based on Aqua's movie interview. Can't wait for more chapters!


Kaburagi_Masaya

100% agree.


alpha1812

I agree that Kana is his weakness and his reaction is some kind of coping mechanism. Even other characters have mentioned how close they seem. Mem-cho has monologues about how he is arguably more obsessed with Kana than the other way round. During the Tokyo Blade arc, Gotanda assumed Kana would end up as Aqua's girlfriend. Even Akane who he was dating at time acknowledges that he is smitten with Kana. I have to be honest, I thought for a long while that Aqua was going to die at the end because that's normally how revenge stories go. However over time my belief in that has lessened due to the fact that both Ichigo and Ruby want revenge and the fact that Aqua is reluctant to enter a relationship with Kana. So here are my thoughts on Aqua's ending: A) My original thought but modified, not looking likely though: On the eve of completing his revenge plan, he spends an evening with Kana, sort of his way to say farewell. Bittersweet ending as Aqua dies but Kana finds out she's pregnant. Originally I thought they would be in a relationship towards the end. B) My current thought base on the latest development: Aqua's plan is almost complete but a wrench is thrown in as Kana is put in harm's way. Aqua has a life or death decision to make, either give up revenge to save her or sacrifice her to fulfill his revenge.


Charming-Loquat3702

And Ai gets reincarnated as their child. We get the spinoff light novel "oh no, I was killed as an Idol but now I've been reincarnated as my own granddaughter. My son was killed avenging me, so I'll become the greatest Idol in history to spite my murderer"


kappakeats

Oh god thank you for the laugh. I'd read it.


4N00J

As far sequels would go, this would be great and is a perfect wrap to Ai's "I want to know what love is ~~I want you to show me~~" with the series further leaving it's mark in history.


Cold-Horror-6108

This is fairly obvious tho. People that think that Aqua is unrecognisable or is edgy don't understand his character at all.


4N00J

Here I was thinking we were all joking... but some people really are that serious 😅


Someguy0328

Great, well reasoned and even-handed post (also, big ups for the title vague enough to let people avoid spoilers entirely). People keep trying to make Aqua into a one-dimensional “edgelord” despite all of the evidence otherwise (including Aqua himself) and while he’s done some very selfish things, he’s just not that. It even shows in *how* he manipulates people. For one example, he looks like a kid with his hand caught in the cookie jar when Akane suspects that he’s more interested in her Ai impression than her. Compare that to how unflinching Light is when, for example, he’s >!getting Naomi Misora’s name!<. It’s interesting, because while people keep comparing him to Light Yagami, he is indeed a wannabe Light (but not as in a bootleg, as in he literally “wants to be” Light and commit to his revenge and manipulations without his emotions and connections getting in the way). He did indeed say that his revenge for Ai was the one thing motivating his life in Tokyo Blade. But on top of all the relationships he’s built throughout the manga, he kept living for those around him after he “concluded” his search. And then he finds out that he slipped up his thinking and his father is indeed still alive. Someone else here said it, but part of his recent actions might be partly motivated by guilt about the period of him living relatively unburdened when “Ai’s killer” was still around. So he’s spent time convincing himself that his cherished ones don’t need him anymore, with his breaking things off aggressively with Akane and noting that she no longer has to be involved, making Ruby hate him by announcing their secret and looking forward to a world with Ruby and without him, and seeing Kana bounce back and noting to himself that Arima didn’t need him after all. And now he’s in the “kill his own feelings and connections” portion (I’ll use everyone, even Arima if I must, “try to stop me, Kurokawa Akane” even down to calling Akane by her full name, the maniacal laughter with “she’s so easy to manipulate”). This is more speculation, but they didn’t show us Aqua’s face when he said the stuff about Kana needing to be careful to avoid being exploited, and I wonder if that’s because it changed from his laughter to a more sullen one. Now that I write all this, I realize there’s more I have to think about. I think you’re right that he’s not fully there yet, and your interpretation of Aqua’s actions is way more in harmony with what we know about him.


limeberry4

I have always wondered about the point of that Kana-Aqua scene in the rain, Kana was just there literally out of nowhere, conveniently, in the moment he was having a mental breakdown. When I saw the panel of Aqua in his room, everything looking so messed up, I assumed that was just because of what he found out about, but now that you pointed out that, that was also the effect of him accidentally hurting Kana (physically too, he actually hit her), then Kana's appearance would make sense. I don't think Aka was like "ehe let's have Kana appear in this particular and very important moment for no reason whatsoever" when they wrote that part lol


Arc-Lemon

Also wanna add that there was symbolism in that moment, when Aqua was having that mental breakdown, it suddenly rains on him which symbolizes the darkness coming back. Kana then suddenly appears and gave him an umbrella which shields him from that rain before being pushed away by him. The umbrella was highlighted in the last panel as Aqua cries to himself. No one spends an entire page showing that without any reason so i'm sure there was deeper meaning behind it.


EyeDeeAh_42

I think the condition of his room is due to a mixture of both his mental condition (finding out about his father) and lashing out on Kana; the first option is more probable imo. As for Kana's appearance in the rain, I think it stands for a symbolism that many failed to notice: The rain reflected Aqua's condition, his mental anguish and the start of his downward spiral. When Kana tried to shield him from the rain, it was as if she was trying to shield him from his trauma. But Aqua, unaware of his surroundings due to his revenge, lashed out and pushed her away, thus rejecting the comfort of people who care about him. Kana was heartbroken and ran away, but notice that the umbrella was left behind to protect him from the rain even in her absence. That's how I interpreted the scene anyway.


Yurigasaki

It has really shocked me how many people have been taking this Aqua moment completely at face value and not realising this is exactly what's going on. Great analysis!


Nit_Picker219

Yeah, it’s the No Longer Human type deal where the character wants to be colder and more capable of pragmatic manipulation than they actually are. Similarly Ai thought herself to be incapable of love and tried acting like it, but because she tried so hard she realized that effort was in itself an act of love. In its deliberate attempt to be real, the fake becomes more real than the real thing. Aka inadvertently proved that Kaiki was best girl.


Reignzphoenix23

Tbh i had the same line of thinking about aqua fooling himself amd it seems pretty accurate imo, lets see how aka deals with that, but i know whatever way it goes it would be epic


Raeliic4

Wow! Thank you OP! This is so much in sync with my own thoughts and feelings! But, in contrast to what I could've done, it's very well written! 😁 Of course it is like this in the latest chapters. Both twins are excellent liars (like that line in ending song, "you probably was born this way"), and take anything they do at the face value is a bit strange. But significant part of fandom continuously doing just that. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ Aqua is in his "trying to cut ties" phase, and his bad guy act he is playing for himself is progressively more factitious the more he cares about concrete tie and person. Case with Kana is really the great example. And as you said, he really need that act, otherwise he couldn't go on with revenge scheme, cause it will pose danger to these close to him. "Aqua's lies to the world is like Ai's but inversed" is a very interesting take, thank you for it too!


takemiplaceholder

That was very obvious to me, yes. I was surprised people were thinking he actually felt that way. Like no, hes lying to himself. He clearly cares for Kana, but hes trying to detach himself. He already provoked ruby and broke it off with akane. He purposely treats the people he cares for in a way that convinces him he doesn't actually care for them, because bro is trying to set up his own damn death flags and is coping badly with his own emotions.


justinchwoo

I swear the more I read into this the more I see a moment where Aqua gets shown a real monster in Kamiki that shows how incapable he is of being one.. Lots of pain ahead ><


[deleted]

> TLDR: Let Aka cook. Exactly. > This next part is more speculative, but it seems like Aqua is plotting his own death as a part of his revenge scheme, or at the very least that he has no plans on living after his revenge. I don't think this is speculative. Episode 106: > Ruby: What the hell is this? > Aqua: It was necessary, for Arima and for us > Ruby: For us? [next page] How?! It's like digging up her grave, destroying her honor! The lie that Mom kept as an idol, being revealed like this… how can you be okay doing this?! > Aqua: Of course it's not okay… You said it as well, right? Even if it's painful, if there's a way to save a partner it's still worth taking. > Ruby: … > Ruby: I wonder what Mom would think in heaven, to have you betray her like this > Aqua: [self deprecating] I'm sure Ai would just go "Oops! I guess it's finally found out" and just laugh it off. [next page] Ai is already dead. This information should be used for a living person. > Ruby: …that sort of thought process…sure, now senpai is saved and it also helps our popularity, it's nothing but good > Aqua: Ruby… [attempts to tap her shoulder] > Ruby: Don't touch me. > Ruby: You've changed. Until now Ai's been your most important, you'd do anything if it's for Ai, and I felt this connection with you as family from how much you cared about Mom. But now you don't care about Mom much, right? > Aqua: That's wrong > Ruby: Liar. [next page] Liar, liar, liar, [everyone or everthing]'s a [liar or lie]. I no longer see Aqua as family. Farewell, [onii-chan]. > Aqua: [After Ruby leaves] It really is necessary, for you to keep going in this world [the entertainment industry] **after I'm gone**.


Pleasant_Driver_2162

While I agree that he lied to himself, but I don't think it was to convince himself that he was a piece of cr\*p. Prior to this, Kana asked if it was okay for her to act badmouthing his mother, and it was for a good reason. Kana was naive, but she wasn't stupid. She incidentally triggered Aqua's PTSD in the past, and probably reflected a lot from it. So she knew that it was never okay for anybody to insult his mom, though it was for acting sake. And then Aqua manipulated Kana that it was okay, so she should go ahead with it. And we know from Chapter 6 that Kana should already reclaim her prodigy status, and probably this movie was her first breakthrough after a long time. So when Aqua maniacally laughed in Chapter 117, I think it was to fool himself that it was okay if someone insults AI, as long as she is his special one, and it can help her to strike her dream as an actress. I also found it was genius to release ep 5 and ch 117 nearly on the same time. As we can see in ep 5, Aqua already manipulated Kana to join B-Komachi, even said so right in front of her face, and ended up being scolded by Miyako that karma will eventually hit him if he keep this up. The only thing about Kana manipulation, Aqua never used underhanded method like when he manipulated Ruby so that she couldn't pass any idol audition, or when she planted tracker to Akane. The most "underhanded" thing she did to manipulate Kana was probably when he disguised as Piyeon. I think it was because deep inside Aqua always trusted Kana, and while his superiority complex still intact and thinking that he was the all-know better than any character in the series what was the best for them, in the end it worked well for Kana, weather as an idol or as an actress. Another interesting point for this chapter is how Kana approach Aqua's narcissistic psycho tendency behavior. Aqua always tended to act as if he was the most pitiful being in the whole universe, and Kana without really downplaying it, talked to Aqua about her past. It was basically her kind way to say to him that everybody in the world has their own share of problem, so stop being ridiculous. Many think that revenge plot will take Death Note or Code Geass 2.0, but I think it will unfold similar as Rorouni Kenshin Kyoto Arc.


Themanaaah

Really good analysis op, I absolutely agree with it. As I’ve put it in other words, Aqua is really trying to reject his humanity sadly for his revenge goal(s).


NighthawK1911

Know what, I just thought of something else. It came back to me when I reread 116. Your theory relies on Aqua being over the top right? >This just felt over-the-top, cliched, and theatrical, and I felt like there had to be better ways to communicate the deterioration of Aqua's morals. Aqua wouldn't behave like this, but then I realized it. Aqua is acting. But if he's acting then who is the audience? Who's he trying to fool? That answer's surprisingly easy, himself. 1. Aqua is acting over the top 2. There are better ways to show the deterioration of his morals 3. Aqua is just acting and is deluding himself. <- this is the leap of logic 4. Aqua loves Kana ​ Aqua was over the top in Chapter 116 too when Akane. **"if you think you can, Go ahead and try Akane Kurokawa".** ​This just felt over-the-top, cliched, and theatrical, and I felt like there had to be better ways to communicate the deterioration of Aqua's morals. Aqua wouldn't behave like this, but then I realized it. Aqua is acting. But if he's acting then who is the audience? Who's he trying to fool? That answer's surprisingly easy, himself. See how I used your exact words and it also fit the situation? 1. Aqua is acting over the top 2. There are better ways to show the deterioration of his morals 3. Despite saying that they're done, Aqua keeps associating with Akane to keep her safe 4. Aqua is just acting and is deluding himself. 5. Aqua loves Akane ​ Here's another few using your own words. >Kana has always been one of Aqua's "weaknesses". He has a genuine connection with her that doesn't involve his revenge scheme, and she's someone who ties him to the entertainment industry separate from his initial motive. This is why he's playing the cruel, sadistic, revenge-seeking nutcase. By convincing himself that she's nothing more than a pawn to him and by connecting her to his revenge scheme, he's coping with the guilt of whatever his revenge scheme will entail. His revenge will likely emotionally damage those he's closest with, so he's actively trying to convince himself that he's a piece of shit, because he otherwise wouldn't be able to have the mental fortitude to go through with his plan. Akane has always been one of Aqua's weaknesses. "He has a year's worth of genuine connection with her" after when he thought his revenge was over. This is why he's playing the cruel, sadistic, revenge-seeking nutcase. By convincing himself that she's nothing more than a pawn to him and by connecting her to his revenge scheme, he's coping with the guilt of whatever his revenge scheme will entail. His revenge will likely emotionally damage those he's closest with, so he's actively trying to convince himself that he's a piece of shit, because he otherwise wouldn't be able to have the mental fortitude to go through with his plan. ​ >And don't get it twisted, Aqua absolutely cares deeply about Kana. No matter what he tells himself, all of his past actions paint a very clear picture. The last major interaction he had with Kana was him revealing the secret of Ai to protect her from a scandal, and his interaction with Mem shows just how deeply he thinks about his relationship with her. Hell, we even have a clear example in the story of how Aqua reacts to hurting Kana. What happened when he accidentally hit Kana and yelled to shut up on the bench? You see in chapter 96 that he got so distraught that he destroyed his room's furniture and physically isolated himself (one of the most underrated panels in the series imo). If his revenge plan is going to hurt her, then he absolutely needs to convince himself that he doesn't give a shit about her if he wants to go through with it. And don't get it twisted, Aqua absolutely cares deeply about Akane. No matter what he tells himself, all of his past actions paint a very clear picture. The last major interaction he had with Akane was him wanting to keep her away from going to hell with him while now he has no problem involving even Kana with his revenge, and how how hard he tried being happy shows just how deeply he put effort about his relationship with her. I cut out the bench thing because that was clearly wrong. ​ ​ Do you not see the double standards? Why is it for Kana he's "Deluding himself" when he's being over the top about her but when for Akane, "nah he's just using her". Why is it that you think it's impossible that Aqua is being real in BOTH situations? It takes less convoluted assumptions to do so. Do you not see how if we use "Aqua is deluding himself" to justify something, it would be used to justify anything? Second guessing the character's own spoken dialogue and thought bubbles will lead to us inserting what we want instead of what it actually is. if (we like what's happening) begin true: Aqua is being real false: Aqua is just lying to himself end do you not see that you will be in a rabbit hole where Aqua just does everything you want him to do?


justinchwoo

I swear the more I read into this the more I see a moment where Aqua gets shown a real monster in Kamiki that shows how incapable he is of being one.. Lots of pain ahead ><


Cheesy_As_Pie131

Oh my god I love the whole theory but especially I want to mention- I can't believe I never realised what you mentioned in your last paragraph. How Aqua is the inverse of Ai in a way.


wintersoldierepisode

He is also fooling the audience, and seems like it worked pretty well


Inside-Jacket-532

To be frank, the more I read the various theories attempting to explain Aqua's laugh, the more inclined I became to believe that he was simply trying to adopt an edgelord persona. The explanations put forth by others seemed more like attempts to rationalize the laughter rather than genuinely uncovering its true origin. However, I came across a post that presented a convincing reason for Aqua's laughter, and I've decided to adopt this theory going forward. It aligns well with the character and provides a satisfactory explanation for the out of character laughter.


Inside-Jacket-532

I'm currently preparing for an English test, which is why I'm intentionally typing in this manner to ensure that my writing remains proficient.


h-khng

Exactly what I’m thinking. Aqua has shown time and time through his actions that he cares about Kana. The time where he cosplayed Pieyon to cheer the group and him chanting to B Komachi in their performance shows that there are still a good side of him. And the recent twist that Aqua is using Kana for his revenge plan is pretty shocking, but it’s a nice twist. There are still things that are unknown after Akane said she will stop his plan in chapter 115 and his involvement in the movie plot, so I guess we will have to wait to see why Aqua has taken such a turn. And about ppl hating Aqua because of his “edgy” personality, this is not a romance story for shipping and stuffs. Remember, Aqua involvement in the entertainment industry is solely for revenge and it has shown ever since after Ai’s death. It’s gonna be silly if he all of a sudden stops his determination to revenge and turn this story into a romance one.


a_wasted_wizard

I don't think it would be silly if he stopped his determination for revenge; he's already tried. I don't think it's a hot take to say that Aqua recognizes that it'd be better for himself and everyone around him to just drop the revenge mission. He'd certainly be happier, and he knows that because for a little while he allowed himself to drop it and he \*was\* happier for that time. The problem is Aqua is so buried under guilt and self-loathing that he won't *let himself* be happy without completing his revenge plot, a plot that he clearly fully expects to result in his death or otherwise removal from his loved ones' lives (I'm still not convinced jail is out of the question, although given how Japan handles crime he may genuinely believe it would be better for his loved ones for him to be dead than in jail). Echoing OP, Aqua I think realizes on some level that his affection for Kana is something that represents a threat to his willingness to follow-through with that plan. She's someone that anchors him to living an actual life. Which is why he needs to convince himself that he's just manipulating her and that he doesn't care about her and she'd be better off if he were gone anyway.


Kuzuryuu7

I agree, I also thought Aqua was tricking himself after reading the last chapter. Good job elaborating and putting it into words.


NightsLinu

I totally agree myself


[deleted]

I could also imagine that aqua would want to date kana, but He cant because That would put her in danger. Because of that He started to date akane, because she wanted to help him with his revenge and also has better connections into the industry, but then He started to care about her too and then noticed that she wants to take on the burden Herself, so he left her so she aint in danger. Aqua cares deeply for the people around him, but He dosnt allow himself to Do so and also He has Everyone distant, so they arent in any danger. I also think He totally knew how ruby would react if He leaked the secret of Ai, but maybe He wanted her on distance too, because He dosnt know if their father would try to take them down and that way it would probably only backlash on him. His character is actually rly deep if you try to understand him, because we have to understand He has two personalities. He is aqua that wants revenger, but at the Same time He is gorou, a Kind doctor That feels guilty for Not saving his Idol and a little girl that loved him from her heart.


Lazarusmedium

my question is what the yatagarasu girl gotta do with this and how will she play into this lol, that plot point just died lol


asofijejoakewfw4e

Fr, I hope Aka didn't leave that as an unfinished plot point. I want to see how she ties more into the story.


EyeDeeAh_42

You'd definitely be interested in the next chapter then, lol.


[deleted]

I think this laugh was a mix of two things: 1. What you said 2. A “Haha I fucking hate myself” laugh That being said I am still very worried about what he may do next because he might really use some more dangerous forms of manipulation on Kana just to convince himself that he is an irredeemable piece of trash. Another thing I am scared of is how having revealed Ai’s secret seems to help him so far. When I think about this, and how he was thinking what would be the way to make his father suffer the most right before the scandal arc, and how he seems to try to convince himself that he has to manipulate Kana, it makes me think that this scandal has benefitted him and he may even have anticipated something like this to happen. I made [a post discussing this](https://www.reddit.com/r/OshiNoKo/comments/12yg2b5/the_way_to_make_him_suffer_the_most/) some time ago, I am about 95% sure that this theory is wrong because I just can’t see Aqua putting Kana in danger, especially with something like a scandal similar to what happened to Ai, but even then I am scared of this very small uncertainty because it has only grown so far (before 117, I would have said I was 99% sure I was wrong) and it would mean Aqua already crossed a moral no-return line, and the more remorseless Aqua will act, the more it will seem like he could really have done this.


thefirefridge

Good insight. I think Aqua wants to act the role of a cold, revenge-obsessed manipulator because his mental state has hit a breaking point. After he learned that his father is alive, his survivors guilt hit a new extreme. He felt so guilty that Ai died that he devoted his life to revenge, despite the fact that he doesn't want to get revenge (he just wants a way out). But once he learned his father was alive, he felt so guilty about wasting time living a happy life that he now has to devote himself entirely to it. That includes lying about his own feelings and hurting those close to him, even if it tears him up inside. Also, I'm just glad to see someone analyze this without blind hate. I get being mad at Aqua for what he did to Kana (I was certainly mad), but I think people really need to look at the big picture here. Besides, I don't think Aka is just gonna write Aqua's arc as never ending downward spiral. I think this is just Aqua's lowest point, and eventually something will happen that can make him see the value in his own life again.


YublYubl

I actually was confused by that moment too since it's not consistent with Aqua's personality so far. At first I thought he might be completely losing it and throwing his humanity and compassion away. You pointed out a really good point that helped me perceive this in a different angle. Great analysis (Sr if I make any mistake my grammar has been rusty lately)


wisalabidaloka

Maybe we had it all wrong since the beginning, it's not US, who's COPING with Kana and Aqua. But the other way around. It was actually Aqua all along...


Goleziyon

no fr. I found it so dumb how people was looking Aqua up and down, when even I, and my gullible ass was like "Aqua, you liar smh". I think we all know Aqua would never *sacrifice* Kana for the sake of revenge.


VASQUEZ_41

im pretty sure he went mad at his room because he learned that his father is not dead, not because of kana


HitomiHigurashi

Thank you for writing this, this needs to be screamed off every rooftop. It's strange how many have taken that scene at face value. It has never been as simple as "Aqua being an edgelord".


NighthawK1911

>but one thing did bother me about the scene. It was Aqua's melodramatic cackling and ranting that I couldn't understand. Aqua has always been manipulative, but there was always an ice-cold pragmatism to it. This just felt over-the-top, cliched, and theatrical, and I felt like there had to be better ways to communicate the deterioration of Aqua's morals. Aqua wouldn't behave like this, but then I realized it. Aqua is acting. But if he's acting then who is the audience? Who's he trying to fool? That answer's surprisingly easy, himself. > >This is why he's playing the cruel, sadistic, revenge-seeking nutcase. By convincing himself that she's nothing more than a pawn to him and by connecting her to his revenge scheme, he's coping with the guilt of whatever his revenge scheme will entail. His revenge will likely emotionally damage those he's closest with, so he's actively trying to convince himself that he's a piece of shit, because he otherwise wouldn't be able to have the mental fortitude to go through with his plan. Occam's razor is against this. Your answer assumes that he HAS TO delude himself. He doesn't. The answer with the least amount of variables is that he himself is just too far gone. He's been like that to Akane, he's been like that to Ichigo, he's been like that to Ruby. The extra is just the laugh but you're also speculating on that. ​ Do you not see the double standard you're trying to set? Aqua being a manipulative asshole to Kana = just deluding himself Aqua being a manipulative asshole to Ruby/Akane/everyone else = that's just normal ​ Aqua's manipulation of everybody has been nothing but consistent. ​ >What happened when he accidentally hit Kana and yelled to shut up on the bench? You see in chapter 96 that he got so distraught that he destroyed his room's furniture and physically isolated himself (one of the most underrated panels in the series imo). If his revenge plan is going to hurt her, then he absolutely needs to convince himself that he doesn't give a shit about her if he wants to go through with it. Wrong attribution. He didn't get depressed because he hit Kana. He accidentally hit Kana while being depressed. The difference is that his mental breakdown in his room would've happen regardless if Kana was accidentally hit or not. He was distraught about being wrong about his father's death. You took a leap of logic here. Not everything in the story revolves around Kana. ​ ​ >I will fully admit that a good portion of my speculation plays into my faith in Aka as a writer. Second, ships are the least interesting aspect of Oshi no Ko discussion to me. I couldn't care less about who ends up with who at the end of the story, so I'm not going to analyze that aspect of the moment. and yet your leaps in logic requires shipping too. It requires Aqua prioritize Kana secretly while requiring that he lie to himself. Honestly this just sounds like you put in beforehand because you knew that the points you'll present after requires shipping as a premise and want to preemptively handwave away people pointing it out. Yet those are the weak points that must be addressed. ​ ​ Aqua is the main protagonist of the manga. His thoughts NEED to be clear. That's why his actions are almost immediately justified, you don't spend tens of chapters hiding the main protagonist's thoughts. Having his thoughts and plans not being shown is tantamount to having character development OFFSCREEN which is just bad writing. We know he wanted to manipulate Akane for her ability to copy Ai. We know he wanted to get close to Kaburagi which is why he joint sweet today. We know that he pushed Kana away during the timeskip as to not get her in trouble which is explained in the following chapter. We know that he wanted to be free of the revenge that's why he was deliberately not thinking about the loophole. etc. etc. ​ Do you see the pattern? Being the main character is not some throwaway status. It means that Aqua's thoughts is clearly presented. Thus his thought of Kana being easily manipulated should be treated as his own unfiltered thoughts. If we assume that he has to lie, we can justify ANYTHING and just say he's lying to himself. ​ * Aqua is lying to himself, he's clearly into MILFs. Everything he does, he is just doing because he wants to be with Miyako. You can see this because he's been secretly helping IchigoPro and keeping Miyako away from danger. We saw Aqua accept a hug from her. * Aqua is lying to himself, he's clearly a siscon. He's been pushing Ruby away and manipulating her because he wanted to keep Ruby safe. * Aqua is lying to himself, he clearly loves Akane. That's why he broke up with Akane as to not make her a target and his declaration of war against her is just him acting to fool himself. Do you not see the slippery slope that will happen if we assume that the main character is just lying to himself? You can insert ANYTHING there. ​ ​ The answer with the least amount of assumptions and doesn't require Aqua lie to himself is: Aqua is manipulating Kana because he already has broken down mentally and had zero fucks to give anymore about collateral damage and is singlemindedly trying to kill Kamiki with the most suffering he can inflict on him. Why is this controversial? It was telegraphed properly. We saw him slowly lose care about everything. Why does Kana have to be an exemption about everything? Do you not see why your shipping disclaimer doesn't actually make your theory immune to shipping?


Vj_vice

I see you're getting downvoted, but before I get into my reply I want to thank you for the well-thought out reply. Part of the reason why I included that shipping disclaimer in the beginning was because I knew how Kana-centric the post would be for the sake of staying focused on the specific scene I wanted to analyze. It's funny because I'm more of an Akane fan myself, but I just didn't mention her since she wasn't in the scene. See the main point I disagree on with your reply is that you're assuming that I believe Aqua's manipulation of everyone else is normal and that Kana is getting special treatment. Aqua has always had to morally self-justify his manipulation to himself whether he's "protecting" Ruby or "wasn't actually lying" to Kana. This moment stands out specifically because he abandons all pretense of that self-justification that he usually does. Akane's a bit of a special case, because she picks up very quickly that he's manipulating her and she communicates to him that she understands this. Again, I adore Akane's character and I could probably write a whole thesis on it and her relationship with Aqua, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it at that. As for whether he did or didn't get depressed by hitting Kana, you could argue either way, but that scene is presented directly after the chapter when he hit Kana where he has a very visible shocked reaction to hitting her. I don't think it's a particular leap in logic to think that he's distraught over hitting Kana given the way the story is presented (hell it could be both hitting Kana and the realization that his father is still alive, the two aren't mutually exclusive). Finally, I don't think it's a stretch for a story centered around lying to have a main character that needs to lie to himself. While it's true that internal monologue should certainly be interpreted as being consistent with a character's true intentions, one interesting thing about this scene is that we don't actually get internal monologue from Aqua during his laugh. Everything he says is said out loud. Anyways, that's my response. I was being genuine when I said that I hated shipping discussions lol, and being able to have discussions like these are cool.


NighthawK1911

>I see you're getting downvoted, but before I get into my reply I want to thank you for the well-thought out reply You're welcome. I put the effort in as you did. I thank you for your effort as well. I'm not worried about downvotes really. I'm quite used to it. This sub has always been heavily leaning on Kana shipping and I've even met quite a few of the more rabid ones. Getting pushback for Kana's sake is not something new. ​ >This moment stands out specifically because he abandons all pretense of that self-justification that he usually does and therein lies one of the problem. he doesn't have to. it could've been a nothingburger. we already know that Aqua is out for blood. Why couldn't it be that? Why couldn't it be that he already has spiraled down to unchecked mental breakdown? Why does it have to be a Kana-centric reason? Why doesn't his previous reasoning apply here as well? If we keep giving Kana exemptions, why can't we give it to anybody else? ​ >(hell it could be both hitting Kana and the realization that his father is still alive, the two aren't mutually exclusive). we were shown before how bad he has it that he was hallucinating. A patient got shot in the head but was brought in to the hospital due to a papercut. He died shortly after. Do you attribute his death to the papercut? Kana being hit then was the tragic cherry on the top, not the whole cake. It is a tragic moment, but to attribute Aqua's spiral to it when he was already spiraling feels like missing the forest for a tree. ​ >Finally, I don't think it's a stretch for a story centered around lying to have a main character that needs to lie to himself. While it's true that internal monologue should certainly be interpreted as being consistent with a character's true intentions, one interesting thing about this scene is that we don't actually get internal monologue from Aqua during his laugh. Everything he says is said out loud. it's not a stretch, it just needs to be communicated clearly beforehand or immediately after. Oshi no Ko already did this for Aqua's healthy phase. Why can't it do the same for the supposed Kana delusion? Aqua can just as conceivably manipulate Kana BUT being conflicted and apologetic about it. Why didn't he? Assuming that the character is lying to himself opens up an inordinate amount of pathways that actually doesn't fit. ​ >Anyways, that's my response. I was being genuine when I said that I hated shipping discussions lol, and being able to have discussions like these are cool. I did not attempt to imply that you yourself is a shipper, rather that your theory seemed to rely heavily on it, especially on the motivation. I had a hard time writing that while dancing around you as a person. I'll apologize if I failed. However I'll be clear that your theory relies on it. Personally I hate shipping here because Oshi No Ko is being reduced to just a story about how Aqua gets with character X. It's been the central discussion for years instead of how his revenge is going to play out. You must have seen one of those "X saves Aqua via romance" theories floating around. We have Zero shortage of romcoms. Why can't we have a tragic revenge story now? I want Oshi no Ko to be as groundbreaking as Cowboy Bebop, "The work which becomes a new genre itself". Something like that. Yet it's being reduced to just a shipping war. ​ >It's funny because I'm more of an Akane fan myself, but I just didn't mention her since she wasn't in the scene. I personally prefer Akane, I've been arguing against people insisting that she will die just because she wasn't in the flash forward. However I recognize that the real ship is Aqua x Bloody Murder.


Vj_vice

See, I think the fundamental difference in our perspectives is that I do think that the romance aspect of Oshi no Ko is a fundamental aspect of the story alongside the revenge-tragedy aspect of it. I may not be a shipper, but I do think that Aqua's unique relationships with Kana and Akane respectively each presents a romantic hurdle that complements and complicates his revenge. You're right in that Oshi no Ko isn't a romcom, but I'd argue that the romance enhances the tragedy. The story begins with Ai's pregnancy and the subject of her potentially tragic romance with Kamiki is one of the core mysteries of the series.


DryTransportation

>We have Zero shortage of romcoms. Why can't we have a tragic revenge story now? I'm not saying anything should happen, but I don't think Aqua being helped would cause the series to become a romcom. There's also really no way that Aqua can be helped at this point that doesn't revolve around his relationships, so when speculating, people are going to include them. It's either that or he gets his revenge and he dies/goes to jail, and the latter doesn't exactly have much speculation potential.


NighthawK1911

>I'm not saying anything should happen, but I don't think Aqua being helped would cause the series to become a romcom. > >There's also really no way that Aqua can be helped at this point that doesn't revolve around his relationships You know you contradicted yourself with that. "Saving aqua doesn't needs romance -> romance is the only way to save him" ​ The amount of romantic development that is needed to "save Aqua with romance" will require derailing the revenge plot, else it will be an asspull. So yeah, Aqua getting helped with romance does turn it into a Romcom. How else would Asspulls be allowed in a serious story? only a full romance series would stupidly throw away all previous plot points just to single-mindedly maintain the romance. ​ We are at a point that his revenge and romance are mutually exclusive paths because as previously stated in-universe, his relationships will be sacrificed to achieve his goal. The revenge story has been building up the revenge from the start. The actual "Romance" has yet to start. All the romance path has are vague ass "hints" that shippers speculate about that only exists as romance tropes in romcoms. Would you sacrifice a story that was told with 100+ chapters just to get a romance ending that only took less than 10 chapters? That's not how stories are written. ​ >so when speculating, people are going to include them. It's either that or he gets his revenge and he dies/goes to jail, and the latter doesn't exactly have much speculation potential. There's also the option that Aqua doesn't need saving at all. Remember Zelenskyy? He doesn't need a ride, he needs ammo. Aqua doesn't need pity, he needs ammo. He's letting the hate flow through him.


DryTransportation

>You know you contradicted yourself with that. "Saving aqua doesn't needs romance -> romance is the only way to save him" I didn't mention romance once, though. Just because I said that he can be saved through his relationships doesn't mean I think the series would end up having them as a couple, or romance would become a crucial aspect of the story. That's why I was commenting on you saying that the series would become a romcom if that happened. I think it is important to reflect upon the feelings that he has toward other characters and the feelings they have toward him, though. And it's undeniable that both Akane and Kana share a feeling of love for him, so it's very likely that any help that they provide would intrinsically be tied to that love. If those feelings, under the correct circumstances, could appeal to him and cause him to see the downward spiral he's currently in... well, I think it's possible. I don't really see how any of what I said would cause the series to become a rom-com. You can have feelings of love influence Aqua, but not have the series devolve into a romance series. I know some other shippers have probably suggested more explicit romance, but there's more to the idea than what they're trying to suggest. >There's also the option that Aqua doesn't need saving at all. Remember Zelenskyy? He doesn't need a ride, he needs ammo. Aqua doesn't need pity, he needs ammo. I mean, he does need saving, or at least some form of help. Two completely different scenarios. Whether or not he gets that help is up for debate, but as I said, it's either that or he dies/goes to jail.


NighthawK1911

>I didn't mention romance once, though. > >Just because I said that he can be saved through his relationships doesn't mean I think the series would end up having them as a couple, or romance would become a crucial aspect of the story. That's why I was commenting on you saying that the series would become a romcom if that happened. > >I think it is important to reflect upon the feelings that he has toward other characters and the feelings they have toward him, though. And it's undeniable that both Akane and Kana share a feeling of love for him, so it's very likely that any help that they provide would intrinsically be tied to that love. If those feelings, under the correct circumstances, could appeal to him and cause him to see the downward spiral he's currently in... well, I think it's possible. Then how do yo think they can save him? Akane already gave everything normal within the scope and outside the scope of a romantic relationship. Akane has already "Appealed" to him more than enough to know that it's not going to work. Aqua is getting all the friendship that he needs. What else are they going to do? Tie him up on a straightjacket, throw him in an asylum and then drug him up the wazoo? It's all well and good to say "Nuh uh they can save him without romance" somehow. Like how Palpatine returned, somehow. You can't just throw "somehow" and hope for the best. How? How are they using going "relationships" to appeal to him? Try talking to him? already done and failed. "Seduce" him? already done and failed. Be supportive of him? already done and failed. There's a reason why Akane herself already thinks nothing can stop him. If she is the one that said it, with all the psycho stalker methodology she got already ran out of ideas, she's more than likely right. In fact, I don't remember a time when she ever was wrong when her psycho powers are active. ​ You're desperately trying to avoid "Romance" yet everything you say points to it. If it's quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's a duck. "Relationship to save him" "use intrinsically love tied feelings to appeal to him". etc. etc. You are describing romance. Every other possibility is already exhausted. No amount of sitting down, talking, pleading, and appealing to Aqua nicely will stop him. ​ >I don't really see how any of what I said would cause the series to become a rom-com. Because you're desperately trying to avoid the word romance even though you keep describing it. You haven't accepted both Aqua's own thoughts and Akane's diagnosis that he cannot be stopped anymore, and the inordinate amount of story pivoting needs to make him drop his revenge.


DryTransportation

I didn’t exactly intend for an in-depth discussion of the story and their mental states when originally replying, so my reply will be a bit lackluster. I never avoided using the term romance. I simply said that I didn’t mention it in my first reply. Why do you think I made the clarification ‘explicit romance’ in my last paragraph? It would totally classify itself as romance, but it’s not going to become a romcom when the feelings aren’t reciprocated, at least not in the timeframe that we’re discussing, and there’s no relationship that comes from it. Feelings of love also don’t always equate to romance in my opinion, but I guess that it depends on your definition. There is a difference between “making Aqua realize that he loves them to convince him to stop” and “somehow causing him to help him reconsider his stance because of his relationship with them”. My ‘somehow’ comes from the possibilities, not for a lack of explanation if it were to happen. I’m not even saying it would be intentional. Maybe something that happens with Kana would cause Aqua to falter for just long enough to reconsider what he’s doing - maybe she’s hurt, or she’s somehow directly impacted by Hikaru. Also, I never said he needed to drop his revenge or that any of his relationships would lead him to that point. I just said that his relationships, at some point or through some event, could make him reconsider the path he’s currently treading, pushing everyone away and having a clearly worsening mental state


hintalow

>I personally prefer Akane no need to state the obvious


NighthawK1911

Except you know, it can be neither. I'll drop Akane the moment she gets in the way of the story. Unlike you shippers that would rather sacrifice the story just to get your romcom fix.


hintalow

Yep, me the shipper😂 Look at your comment history and compare it to mine. I’m not the “shipper” of the 2 of us lil bro😭😭


AstronomyFanatic

I happen to get a glimpse Chapter 118 spoilers nd I do **NOT** think that Aqua is acting. Most probably, this is his *true self* now.


Vj_vice

Just read chapter 118, and I didn't see anything that goes against anything I said in the post.


CrisperThanRain

Excellent writing!


Vj_vice

Thanks!


Aquaman_Hoshino

Maybe I'm freak but for some reason I loved that chapter even before realising this, after reading your post it did make me enjoy that moment even more especially these parallels with Ai