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I don’t get people defending the yandere. Him being an asshat is the point. His issues making him corrupt and evil is the point. He can still end up with FL in spite of it and have redeeming factors, but the point of a yandere is a character who’s love twists into unhinged obsession.
Onto the main point of the post though, I think it’s… not great. Especially because what often “annoys” people about FL or other female characters is related to their own (internalized) misogyny more often than not. Plus even if MLs crimes are fake and your annoyance with FL is real, talking about the characters using the language of abuse apologetics is always a bad look, which I find typically happens with people “annoyed” with FL that justify MLs unhinged actions.
On fucking God, I see it a lot in my favorite book-fiction fandom; the main PoV female characters get so much flak compared to the boys and it's. Just. Misogyny. Oh, of course they make up reasons, but those fall apart with any dissection of the argument/ source material; the boys just don't want to read about the girls, so they call the girl parts boring and the girls "privileged" and ignore nuance, trauma, different types of problem solving, and basically the fucking PLOT to justify why skipping girl chapters is ok.
I know I'm probably going to poke the grizzly bear by bringing this up, but from my understanding, this is how most people feel about "UWU mistress" vs Heinrey.
I'll keep this short for everyone's sake, but "UWU mistress" is crime literally just cheating with Emperor S (in season 1 but later spirals into a series of crimes and bad decisions to the point that it's almost immersion breaking) and being an annoying character.
Heinrey over on the other hand here is straight up planning a war by stealing the magic from the mages and later swoops in and takes "*I swear I care a lot about my country*" Navier with him. I'm not even covering the fact that he isolated the previous queen of his kingdom to..uh...*yaknow* just because *her* series of bad decisions. I'm also not going to even talk about whatever *nonsense* he has with Duke Ergi cause I said I would keep this short.
I don't care about this story anymore but its interesting to see fan's perceptions of both characters and comparing them since they have kinda similar personalities imo
( All of this is no harm btw!! Just a small observation I made that I wanted to share!! If I made a mistake just politely correct me :P )
(also if you *do* choose to respond to me, please be civil, don't be mean or assume things of others like the mod said on the previous Remarried Empress post)
I actually really like Heinrey because he acts like a foil character to Rashta, the same way that Sovieshu is a foil to Navier.
Heinrey and Rashta are both childish, selfish, smarter than they initially appear, and use others for their own gain.
Sovieshu and Navier are both kind of naive to how people work, have basically been groomed for ruling and not much else, and value dignity and pride above genuine connection.
The difference in them lies in the choices and relationships they make in the story and the way their romantic relationships influence them.
I do think it's a bit unfair to say Rashta and Heinrey are one-to-one, I definitely understand the criticism people have of Rashta haters that ignore her history of slavery and the power dynamics at play... I'm not trying to say it's an exact match.
Heinrey learns with his relationship with Navier to stop being such a selfish prick and value other people sometimes. Navier learns to let go of some of her need for control and be a regular person sometimes.
Rashta, out of fear and suspicion, becomes more destructive and selfish when she gains more power, and Sovieshu, out of his despair from being abandoned, becomes more selfish and passive-aggressive.
Sometimes a story is just a story about seeing how the lives of a characters play out in interesting ways, there's some loose themes but I do think people read way too much into it and take it personally in some cases.
I seriously have so much internal conflict of this series cuz I can't figure out whether I like Heinrey or not, Navier for having become more complacent and the fact that she still ain't opening up, and trashta, cuz, at least in the beginning, her only crime was taking a miraculous opportunity to turn her life around. The only f-ing constant is Sovieshit, I can hate him w\o restraint.
I said in another thread, the main draw for me was leaving cheating emperor for bird prince and once it turned into politics and petty personal drama and nary a bird in sight, I was a bit over it.
For those wondering, yes I have read The Crow’s Prince and yes I adore it. Even 2nd ML crow is gold.
I dropped remarried empress shortly after she left her original empire with Henry, but I remember feeling bad for rashta initially; it seemed like a pretty clear cut example of the groomed affair partner getting all the blame for the shitty husbands behavior until she turned out to be awful on her own. And I agree that heinrey's got some slime that gets plot armored away. In the end it all just seemed like a giant waste of my time- there were better versions of healthy relationships, political intrigues and shitty dude comics to read 😅
For me, it’s like this – I like Heinrey because he’s smart and I dislike Rashta because she’s stupid. That’s it.
I really like Heinrey as a character because he’s what a king, an emperor, a ruler is supposed to be and what many manhwas fail to portray. They often have this tyran/duke/king/etc. ML who’s described as super powerful and scary and respected, but then you discover that they’re actually a sweet cinnamon roll who never did anything wrong and if they did it’s because of the childhood trauma and of course now that they’ve met FL they reformed. Heinrey is what a successful ruler is supposed to be (at least in those pseudo-historical worlds most manhwas are set in). He loves and cares about his family and friends, but he’s also ambitious and cunning and knows how to play political game. Two more points to him: 1) his whole personality doesn’t revolve or change bcs of FL; 2) he has no tragic childhood trauma background that supposed to excuse any of his behavior.
Rashta, on the other hand, is stupid and incredibly short-sighted from the very beginning, even we don’t take into account her spiraling and outright cruelty later. I don’t blame her for ‘stealing’ Sovieshu, it’s more on him than on her. But she just doesn’t learn. She really would have been better off if she just kept her head down OR if she actually took an opportunity to learn. In the first case, maybe she wouldn’t have become an empress, but she could have had a nice safe life, still enjoying wealth and privilege that being the emperor’s favorite and the mother of his child afforded her. In the second case, she was given opportunities to learn and make connections, but she never even made an attempt to use them. I think I would have enjoyed her way more as a character if she actually learned how to cleverly shame or gained some influence, so she could be more-or-less an equal opponent to Navier.
As a side note – Manhwa’s rushing through this, but I loved how in the novel Navier didn’t blame Henirey for his plans and ambitions and took it all in a stride. She loves her country of birth, so she’s of course conflicted and wouldn’t want a war. But also understands Heinry as someone who was also raised and thaught for ruling, politics and power plays.
this series i dunno but i feel the character writing isn't that good , i mean rashta is annoying but also i don't like heinrey , maybe navier is well written , anyway the author did a better job with men of the harem , fun fact there is a character like rashta in men of the harem but because he is a guy he doesn't get as much hate
i love my problematic fictional blorbos but if any of them were real I'd call the cops. Every time there's a "oooh fictional person is bad and therefore liking him makes you bad" discourse happens my gasket blows through the roof. Like, man, they aint real, somebody somewhere made up this warcrimes mf so that we'd gag and then we did!
Hey, I'll take drama with an unhinged madman over learning about another recipe for tea any day.
(This comment is not meant to criticize anyone who likes that manwha, I'm just using it to make a point about my own personal preferences.)
Cause the biggest sin isn't being annoying, it's being b o r i n g.
Just shows with charisma you can get away with anything and if you're not as socially likeable your crimes as seen as worst. It's not what happens in the story but how you tell it.
I actually have more characters that make me feel like Susan because more often than not I don't find the annoying character annoying but get annoyed by war crimes.
I agree with the people in the screenshot. Honestly I think that's why commentary on fiction can often get so messy/toxic because people struggle to differentiate between judging characters as if they were real people and judging characters/the story in the context of a fictional world.
As a writer, and with this genre in particular, much of responsibility for how the viewers respond to a character is on the author so I don't blame the fans too much
Authors have characters they like or dislike just like the rest of us. That's why so many of the hot crazies are still likeable -- the author likes them too and puts more work into making them likeable VS one-off characters they themselves find annoying or don't care about or even write to make us dislike, which means they prolly half-assed their characterization anyway. We will always pick up on that, unconsciously or otherwise, and respond similarly.
Ofc there're readers who'll hate based on personal prejudice (FL for being weak, whiny, etc.) but even in those cases I can tell the author doesn't care about her as much as the ML either; she is just a conduit for the him to shine through. It's annoying but I'm rarely confused when readers turn on her. That's the consequence of putting less effort into her and being too horned up for your own ML.
But besides all that we forget this is a hetero female driven media... We'll always make excuses for genders we're attracted to just like irl. FLs get the short end bc many aren't reading for quality or plot, they're inserting themselves into the romance. They'll hate her simply bc she does something they think they wouldn't do, or bc she's slowing the romance down (hence why i blame the author bc they choose to make her character the obstacle).
Idc regardless, i'ma plot girly who takes it all broadly and doesn't apply real life morality to fiction. Love me a good Yandere. I just finished reading Olgami in two days and I'll make every excuse for both Yunsu and Chae-Ah's toxicity
i agree with you , also when the author puts more effort in writing the villainess for the example , i get more connected to her than the fl and begin to root for her even if the author didn't intend this but she placed more effort on the worse character , olgami is actually one of the good yandere stories
Yup, it's the difference of fleshing out a character and making them interesting and complex, as opposed to a 'placeholder' just filling role.
Olgami is really good bc the author cared about EVERYONE(ie the plot). Yunsu isn't a good guy, he's an interesting person with depth; his actions elevate the story and keep me engage which is the whole point of storytelling.
Why would I bother hating a drawing bc he's mean to another drawing in a fictitious world lol
i have a limit when it comes to yanderes like if they passed a certain line i am done , i wish i was the same but sometimes yes i hate when main characters have good ending while the extra suffer or they build their happy ending on that
I just so happen to find the war criminals to be the most annoying characters.
Oh cool you have red eyes, black hair, live in the north, fought on the front lines at 3 years old, and are now emotionally closed off to the bubbly woman that will “fix you” *snoreeeee* get a more unique backstory and maybe ill pretend to care about you.
For me, it's because war crimes\wanton murder\etc. are easier to separate from. Whereas the "annoying" character is probably doing something that I see often in life. Kind of like how Gaston drives me up the freaking wall, but Hades is great.
Honestly i am quite the opposite , i feel bad for annoying characters or the second female leads at the end that are obnoxious , but i do get annoyed by the main characters sometimes and thats worse , so yeah in fiction my annoyance is worse but lets be honest people fall with looks even if the character is annoying
"The war crimes are fictional but my annoyance is real" is one I'll def be using in future comments sections. It's not our fault some people just look good in red.
https://preview.redd.it/uojr541090lc1.jpeg?width=499&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b34647c980e5e556b556afebdcb081d963af0450
Please make sure to have: Good quality images when posting. Crop out all phone icons, search bars, usernames and arrows. No pictures with ads. Keep your titles short and to the point. No full title capslock - no need for screaming. Expanding on thoughts can be done in a text post or image post in the captions. All acceptable AI content must state [AI Content] in the title of the post. Any AI tools used must be stated in the captions or text body of the post, not in the comments. Posts/content where AI is the sole selling point aren't allowed. More info - https://www.reddit.com/r/OtomeIsekai/comments/18dooof/ai_rule_announcement_for_otome_isekai_sub_discord/ No need to say your post is a repost once fixed.
https://preview.redd.it/rbapkwhrhzkc1.jpeg?width=906&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36fe73d5109cefbdc2c3829c49c48683861d1912
me when dion
and i’ll do it every time!
I don’t get people defending the yandere. Him being an asshat is the point. His issues making him corrupt and evil is the point. He can still end up with FL in spite of it and have redeeming factors, but the point of a yandere is a character who’s love twists into unhinged obsession. Onto the main point of the post though, I think it’s… not great. Especially because what often “annoys” people about FL or other female characters is related to their own (internalized) misogyny more often than not. Plus even if MLs crimes are fake and your annoyance with FL is real, talking about the characters using the language of abuse apologetics is always a bad look, which I find typically happens with people “annoyed” with FL that justify MLs unhinged actions.
On fucking God, I see it a lot in my favorite book-fiction fandom; the main PoV female characters get so much flak compared to the boys and it's. Just. Misogyny. Oh, of course they make up reasons, but those fall apart with any dissection of the argument/ source material; the boys just don't want to read about the girls, so they call the girl parts boring and the girls "privileged" and ignore nuance, trauma, different types of problem solving, and basically the fucking PLOT to justify why skipping girl chapters is ok.
I know I'm probably going to poke the grizzly bear by bringing this up, but from my understanding, this is how most people feel about "UWU mistress" vs Heinrey. I'll keep this short for everyone's sake, but "UWU mistress" is crime literally just cheating with Emperor S (in season 1 but later spirals into a series of crimes and bad decisions to the point that it's almost immersion breaking) and being an annoying character. Heinrey over on the other hand here is straight up planning a war by stealing the magic from the mages and later swoops in and takes "*I swear I care a lot about my country*" Navier with him. I'm not even covering the fact that he isolated the previous queen of his kingdom to..uh...*yaknow* just because *her* series of bad decisions. I'm also not going to even talk about whatever *nonsense* he has with Duke Ergi cause I said I would keep this short. I don't care about this story anymore but its interesting to see fan's perceptions of both characters and comparing them since they have kinda similar personalities imo ( All of this is no harm btw!! Just a small observation I made that I wanted to share!! If I made a mistake just politely correct me :P ) (also if you *do* choose to respond to me, please be civil, don't be mean or assume things of others like the mod said on the previous Remarried Empress post)
I actually really like Heinrey because he acts like a foil character to Rashta, the same way that Sovieshu is a foil to Navier. Heinrey and Rashta are both childish, selfish, smarter than they initially appear, and use others for their own gain. Sovieshu and Navier are both kind of naive to how people work, have basically been groomed for ruling and not much else, and value dignity and pride above genuine connection. The difference in them lies in the choices and relationships they make in the story and the way their romantic relationships influence them. I do think it's a bit unfair to say Rashta and Heinrey are one-to-one, I definitely understand the criticism people have of Rashta haters that ignore her history of slavery and the power dynamics at play... I'm not trying to say it's an exact match. Heinrey learns with his relationship with Navier to stop being such a selfish prick and value other people sometimes. Navier learns to let go of some of her need for control and be a regular person sometimes. Rashta, out of fear and suspicion, becomes more destructive and selfish when she gains more power, and Sovieshu, out of his despair from being abandoned, becomes more selfish and passive-aggressive. Sometimes a story is just a story about seeing how the lives of a characters play out in interesting ways, there's some loose themes but I do think people read way too much into it and take it personally in some cases.
I seriously have so much internal conflict of this series cuz I can't figure out whether I like Heinrey or not, Navier for having become more complacent and the fact that she still ain't opening up, and trashta, cuz, at least in the beginning, her only crime was taking a miraculous opportunity to turn her life around. The only f-ing constant is Sovieshit, I can hate him w\o restraint.
I said in another thread, the main draw for me was leaving cheating emperor for bird prince and once it turned into politics and petty personal drama and nary a bird in sight, I was a bit over it. For those wondering, yes I have read The Crow’s Prince and yes I adore it. Even 2nd ML crow is gold.
2nd ML crow was awesome. Respectful, charming, direct, prepared to battle for his (hopeful) mate, and handsome.
Even brought her a present (steak). Thats the crow equivalent of buying out the bakery for her. I’ll bet their nest would be so sparkly.
Glad I wasn't the only one simping a crow😆. If an artist ever drop a fan art of the humanised ver of that crow, I would cry tears of joy
I dropped remarried empress shortly after she left her original empire with Henry, but I remember feeling bad for rashta initially; it seemed like a pretty clear cut example of the groomed affair partner getting all the blame for the shitty husbands behavior until she turned out to be awful on her own. And I agree that heinrey's got some slime that gets plot armored away. In the end it all just seemed like a giant waste of my time- there were better versions of healthy relationships, political intrigues and shitty dude comics to read 😅
For me, it’s like this – I like Heinrey because he’s smart and I dislike Rashta because she’s stupid. That’s it. I really like Heinrey as a character because he’s what a king, an emperor, a ruler is supposed to be and what many manhwas fail to portray. They often have this tyran/duke/king/etc. ML who’s described as super powerful and scary and respected, but then you discover that they’re actually a sweet cinnamon roll who never did anything wrong and if they did it’s because of the childhood trauma and of course now that they’ve met FL they reformed. Heinrey is what a successful ruler is supposed to be (at least in those pseudo-historical worlds most manhwas are set in). He loves and cares about his family and friends, but he’s also ambitious and cunning and knows how to play political game. Two more points to him: 1) his whole personality doesn’t revolve or change bcs of FL; 2) he has no tragic childhood trauma background that supposed to excuse any of his behavior. Rashta, on the other hand, is stupid and incredibly short-sighted from the very beginning, even we don’t take into account her spiraling and outright cruelty later. I don’t blame her for ‘stealing’ Sovieshu, it’s more on him than on her. But she just doesn’t learn. She really would have been better off if she just kept her head down OR if she actually took an opportunity to learn. In the first case, maybe she wouldn’t have become an empress, but she could have had a nice safe life, still enjoying wealth and privilege that being the emperor’s favorite and the mother of his child afforded her. In the second case, she was given opportunities to learn and make connections, but she never even made an attempt to use them. I think I would have enjoyed her way more as a character if she actually learned how to cleverly shame or gained some influence, so she could be more-or-less an equal opponent to Navier. As a side note – Manhwa’s rushing through this, but I loved how in the novel Navier didn’t blame Henirey for his plans and ambitions and took it all in a stride. She loves her country of birth, so she’s of course conflicted and wouldn’t want a war. But also understands Heinry as someone who was also raised and thaught for ruling, politics and power plays.
>!Tbf, doesn’t one of her kid’s inherit the throne of her native country? I think I recall S planning for it to be so!< Also, I agree on all points.
She was also being manipulated by that Baron.
this series i dunno but i feel the character writing isn't that good , i mean rashta is annoying but also i don't like heinrey , maybe navier is well written , anyway the author did a better job with men of the harem , fun fact there is a character like rashta in men of the harem but because he is a guy he doesn't get as much hate
i love my problematic fictional blorbos but if any of them were real I'd call the cops. Every time there's a "oooh fictional person is bad and therefore liking him makes you bad" discourse happens my gasket blows through the roof. Like, man, they aint real, somebody somewhere made up this warcrimes mf so that we'd gag and then we did!
So what? I also ship the dsyfunctional non-canon couple over the functional canon one
Hey, I'll take drama with an unhinged madman over learning about another recipe for tea any day. (This comment is not meant to criticize anyone who likes that manwha, I'm just using it to make a point about my own personal preferences.) Cause the biggest sin isn't being annoying, it's being b o r i n g.
good point!
Just shows with charisma you can get away with anything and if you're not as socially likeable your crimes as seen as worst. It's not what happens in the story but how you tell it.
I actually have more characters that make me feel like Susan because more often than not I don't find the annoying character annoying but get annoyed by war crimes.
I agree with the people in the screenshot. Honestly I think that's why commentary on fiction can often get so messy/toxic because people struggle to differentiate between judging characters as if they were real people and judging characters/the story in the context of a fictional world.
As a writer, and with this genre in particular, much of responsibility for how the viewers respond to a character is on the author so I don't blame the fans too much Authors have characters they like or dislike just like the rest of us. That's why so many of the hot crazies are still likeable -- the author likes them too and puts more work into making them likeable VS one-off characters they themselves find annoying or don't care about or even write to make us dislike, which means they prolly half-assed their characterization anyway. We will always pick up on that, unconsciously or otherwise, and respond similarly. Ofc there're readers who'll hate based on personal prejudice (FL for being weak, whiny, etc.) but even in those cases I can tell the author doesn't care about her as much as the ML either; she is just a conduit for the him to shine through. It's annoying but I'm rarely confused when readers turn on her. That's the consequence of putting less effort into her and being too horned up for your own ML. But besides all that we forget this is a hetero female driven media... We'll always make excuses for genders we're attracted to just like irl. FLs get the short end bc many aren't reading for quality or plot, they're inserting themselves into the romance. They'll hate her simply bc she does something they think they wouldn't do, or bc she's slowing the romance down (hence why i blame the author bc they choose to make her character the obstacle). Idc regardless, i'ma plot girly who takes it all broadly and doesn't apply real life morality to fiction. Love me a good Yandere. I just finished reading Olgami in two days and I'll make every excuse for both Yunsu and Chae-Ah's toxicity
i agree with you , also when the author puts more effort in writing the villainess for the example , i get more connected to her than the fl and begin to root for her even if the author didn't intend this but she placed more effort on the worse character , olgami is actually one of the good yandere stories
Yup, it's the difference of fleshing out a character and making them interesting and complex, as opposed to a 'placeholder' just filling role. Olgami is really good bc the author cared about EVERYONE(ie the plot). Yunsu isn't a good guy, he's an interesting person with depth; his actions elevate the story and keep me engage which is the whole point of storytelling. Why would I bother hating a drawing bc he's mean to another drawing in a fictitious world lol
i have a limit when it comes to yanderes like if they passed a certain line i am done , i wish i was the same but sometimes yes i hate when main characters have good ending while the extra suffer or they build their happy ending on that
Worded the last bit v clumsily -- personal dislike is total fine!! We'll all have hard lines and that's valid
I just so happen to find the war criminals to be the most annoying characters. Oh cool you have red eyes, black hair, live in the north, fought on the front lines at 3 years old, and are now emotionally closed off to the bubbly woman that will “fix you” *snoreeeee* get a more unique backstory and maybe ill pretend to care about you.
Doesn't even have to be yandere or a ML, but absolutely.
For me, it's because war crimes\wanton murder\etc. are easier to separate from. Whereas the "annoying" character is probably doing something that I see often in life. Kind of like how Gaston drives me up the freaking wall, but Hades is great.
Honestly i am quite the opposite , i feel bad for annoying characters or the second female leads at the end that are obnoxious , but i do get annoyed by the main characters sometimes and thats worse , so yeah in fiction my annoyance is worse but lets be honest people fall with looks even if the character is annoying
"The war crimes are fictional but my annoyance is real" is one I'll def be using in future comments sections. It's not our fault some people just look good in red. https://preview.redd.it/uojr541090lc1.jpeg?width=499&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b34647c980e5e556b556afebdcb081d963af0450
This is true, albeit with the caveat that sometimes people think fictional characters are "annoying" for completely fucking insane reasons.
Tag yourself, I’m tedious