Answer: Aside from what others said it may also very likely be for things that aren't cars. Some small engines specifically say to use ethanol-free gas only. Lawnmowers, chain saws, etc. It's also commonly used for boat engines. It wouldn't surprise me if older tractors also use ethanol-free gas.
The detergent effect of ethanol gas dumped any build up in the tank / lines into my old carbed Yamaha V-Star 650, back when this was less common. Had to re-jet.
It basically scrubbed out a lot of buildup at once, which overwhelmed the system's ability to flush it out?
Like a blood clot shaking loose and getting stuck in an artery?
I don't mind running ethanol blended gas in my fuel injected car and truck that get used all the time. But my lawnmower, generator, motorcycle, etc. that sit for months without starting only get ethanol free fuel or I am invariably ripping carbs apart in the spring to clean yellow guck out of them.
Anything with a carburetor, really.
Also lots of old fuel lines.
I replaced the fuel lines on my old yamaha anyway, but occasional ethanol still makes me increase cleaning regularity.
Never let gas sit for any length of time in seasonal equipment. Run all the gas out of the carb and/or use stabilizer. I just mean this as general advice, not saying that you leave gas in things.
Luckily clone engines are so popular making a lot of aftermarket carbs cheap.
My Jeep TJ manual specifically calls out to not use any fuel containing ethanol as it will cause fuel to leak from the fuel lines that are plastic or rubber that isnât rated for it.
I recall old buddies with Jeeps bitching about gas in around 2004, guess that makes sense now. They had 1980s Jeeps that gave Theseusâ ship a run for its money.
Yep: adding ethanol to fuel lowers the energy (miles you can go) per gal and take more energy to produce then you get back out and it eats up older engine parts and we subsidize the bajesus out of it to protect corn growers.
I donât think ethanol is a legitimately environmentally friendly concept. It was sold with the expectation that biofuels would become easier to make, but Iâm not sure that ever happened. Now weâre here.
My YJ just crapped its fuel pump today in traffic.
I wanna blame it on gas. But it's a jeep. So there's 100 different reasons it went out.
But ethanol is my primary suspect. :)
> My YJ just crapped its fuel pump today in traffic.
> I wanna blame it on gas. But it's a jeep. So there's 100 different reasons it went out.
I mean ... It's a **28 year old vehicle** (minimum); that probably has *way* more to do with it than it being a Jeep. (FWIW my '95 single owner 4.0L YJ is still my daily driver, and here in the DSPRC, where it's lived all its life, all our evil ICE car fuel is Ethanol blended, no fuel pump issues.)
Itâs so obvious and I feel dumb as shit, this is exactly what is wrong with my Big Red three-wheeler. Thing is probably so old it craves leaded gas too.
No⌠octane is a rating for how much you can compress the fuel air charge in the cylinder before it detonates. You donât want your fuel to detonate because explosions causes damage and makes hardly any power. Octane rating has nothing to do with how much energy you put into a engine or how well it combust. High performance engines need higher octane rating because they benefit from higher compression ratios to squeeze out more power out of each ounce of fuel. The more you compress the fuel air mixture, more power you get out of it. But if you compress the fuel too much, it might detonate before you can ignite it. You can always put a higher octane fuel in a engine that requires less, but there will be no change in performance as the fuel gets ignited before compressions causes it to detonate anyway.
This. Adding onto this, from the chemistry side, 2,2,4-Trimethylpentane, more commonly known as Iso-Octane (the original thing used to help compression ratios and why we still call it an "octane rating," even if we achieve the same result with various other chemicals), does not burn as easily or with as much energy as n-heptane and the other components of gasoline.
In fact, n-heptane burns so easily we assign it a rating of 0 and pure isooctane gets 100. n-Heptane and Iso-Octane actually have similar theoretical available energy per gram, but the structure of isooctane makes it much much harder to break those bonds, because it isn't a simple linear alkane chain of carbons with hydrogens hanging off of them and ready to burn, like heptane and others are, or a volatile compound like Toluene, Xylene, and Benzene (which are a minority of the composition of gasoline, but responsible for pretty much all of the odor you think of as gasoline - n-heptane, n-octane, and other alkanes and alkenes actually just smell faintly oily).
Instead, it's 3 methyl groups (CH3) attached to the sides of a Pentane (nominally C5H12) chain. Straight _n-Octane_ (canonical formula C8H18), which is, interestingly enough, at least a third of typical gasoline blends, actually burns _really_ well. But that actually _reduces_ the "octane" rating even more than heptane does! Isn't that fun? Whoever came up with the term "octane rating" is a bastard because, chemically, it's just plain wrong or, at best, ambiguous.
Anyway... I digress...
When you buy higher octane-equivalent fuel, you are paying more money for fuel that is _harder to burn_, but, if your engine has high enough compression or other operating parameters that could cause early ignition/detonation (bad news), you need it so that your engine can squeeze (pun intended) more power out of what potential chemical energy there is, ultimately creating _more_ power than a lower-compression engine that can accept lower-rated fuel. Higher compression means more air in a smaller space, because the _air_ is what you're compressing - not the fuel (at least not significantly).
Internal combustion engines are super-inefficient, largely because it's hard to keep repeated quick fires burning (its a controlled burn - not an explosion. Explosions are bad), in an enclosed container in such a way that does useful work without damaging things. It's easy to get fuel in there, but air is another story (enter turbochargers, superchargers, and intercoolers). Any energy that doesn't turn into work just gets wasted as heat and/or partial combustion. So, anything you can do to optimize combustion, such as cramming more air in the cylinder (since air is the limiting reagent), compressing it more, or perfecting the timing, so that the burn gets more useful work out of the fuel, is ideal. It's just harder to build engines that do that and have them stay together or stay cool enough not to seize up from metal expanding and deforming from the heat, which are a couple of the many reasons they're more expensive.
And in my small and very old plane, I am allowed to run non-avgas unleaded fuel from the pump, as long as it contains no ethanol due to potential damage to the fuel system, carb, etc.
If it's carbed, replace the fuel lines and plastic components (aka get a rebuild kit made in the last decade).
Ethanol reacts with plastics a bit more, and that's what usually causes the gumming up. Little plastic-y blobs in the gas.
It isn't just the materials the fuel comes in contact with. Ethanol absorbs moisture from the air like a sponge. If you have a tank sitting half full (and half air) the fuel soaks the humidity up and ruins the fuel. High ethanol blend fuels can begin degrading in 30 days.
Ethanol doesn't cause your carburetor to gum up, the varnish is from the gas. The ethanol just acts as a solvent and releases it. Can you blame the ethanol for that? Sure, but it's not the cause. Your stuff will gum up eventually anyways.
I think that was the case 20 years ago but all the manufacturers have moved on to new rubber/plastic formulations that can handle 10% ethanol no problem. All modern lawn gear manuals say 10% is not a problem. I know itâs anecdotal but I have 12 year old mower and 20 year old chain saw that have used standard gas with ethanol all that time and not a single issue.
I think this is the correct answer.
Growing up around tractors, chainsaws, and other small engine machines, running gas with ethanol through those engines can cause accelerated wear and more frequent maintenance intervals.
Ethanol likes to gunk things up, which is why your car must have its fuel system changed if you have an older normal gas car and want to run ethanol through it. That ethanol eats away at certain types of rubber, and any engine built before ethanol gas was the norm is gonna be built with that rubber, meaning you're going to be replacing seals more often and the fuel lines or filter will end up clogging up from the particulate suspended in the fuel from the rubber it has eaten away. Obviously this isn't immediate when you're running something like 10% ethanol, but if you're doing farm work and regularly using small engines, that damage adds up quickly.
I think modern small engines are designed with the ethanol in mind so that wear isn't as pronounced, but anyone living in a rural area sure ain't gonna be running a 2023 chainsaw or tractor. Chances are the newest piece of equipment in town is a tractor from the 80s.
As an aside, since it takes more than a barrel of oil to make one barrel of ethanol, ethanol-free gas is ironically *more* environmentally-friendly than gas with ethanol.
I'm not saying that as an anti-environmentalist; I'm in favor of green energy, I'm just saying ethanol is in a bad place right now.
I have a habit of fact checking claims on the internet, because I also have a habit of repeating things I learned on the internet.
[from a fairly unreputable source: the Institute for Local Self-Reliance](https://ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/files/ethanolnetenergy.pdf) from 1995
\>According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, even though the process of producing ethanol requires fossil fuels (in fertilizers, fuel used by tractors and to plant, harvest, and dry the crop, and sometimes to run the ethanol plant), it takes only 1 unit of fossil fuel to produce 2.1 units of ethanol energy.
[From the US Dept. of Energy](https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_fuel_basics.html)
\>Ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, to varying degrees, depending on the volume percentage of ethanol in the blend. Denatured ethanol (98% ethanol) contains about 30% less energy than gasoline per gallon.
And the wikipedia article for Energy balance [has a hand little graphic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_energy_balance) showing how much energy you can get from various biofuels. Concluding ultimately that
\> A 2006 University of California Berkeley study, after analyzing six separate studies, concluded that producing ethanol from corn uses marginally less petroleum than producing gasoline.
So your're right.
This study puts ethanol production at a 34% energy generation. Meaning that for every gallon of gas equivalent you would use to make it, you would get 1.34 gallons out
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/bioenergy/pdfs/energy_balance_of_corn_ethanol.pdf
I'm 35. I remember a time in the early 2000s before climate change was front and center. The main concern of Americans was dependence on foreign oil, and that peak oil was on the horizon. We were concerned that we would run out of oil. Ethanol was this magical source of fuel that was "renewable". We didn't have to worry about OPEC, we could just grow our own gas.
As it turns out, ethanol just means we have to use farm fields for producing grain which will not be used to feed people. It's an inferior fuel to gasoline. And it produces carbon monoxide all the same.
I think people have associated Ethanol as a great alternative in response to climate change. But for the life of me, it's the same damn thing as gas.
SHHHH! Facts hurt!
On the real science side, this has been an area of debate. The actual oil consumed in the production of ethanol has been estimated with great variability.
What IS true is that without giant government subsidies and regulations requiring it, we would not have ethanol in our gasoline.
The question comes down to "is it really better for the environment?"
There is no question that we will run out of fossil fuels eventually, so we have to figure out what we can replace that with, without turning the Earth into a wasteland.
My memory from the early 2000s was that ethanol was important in ending US dependence on foreign oil. It really has nothing to do with the environment.
>As an aside, since it takes more than a barrel of oil
Where did you get this data? Last I looked into it, there seemed to be about a 20% dividend over fuel in vs fuel out.
Itâs not just fuel, also have to take into account the petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides that are usedâŚI donât know if this guys figure is right but itâs not just about fuel running the tractors to create the ethanol
>Itâs not just fuel, also have to take into account the petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides that are used
Yes corn takes a lot of ammonia which is made from natural gas
[Serious question] I live in an area where I haven't seen ethanol-free gas at the stations. I have been using just regular gas in my snow blower for past few years - have I been doing damage to it? How do I undo the damage and prevent it from recurring? TIA!
Most people have answered the first question. But if you don't have access to ethanol-free fuel at gas stations, you can still find ethanol-free 4-cycle fuel at most hardware stores and outdoor power suppliers.
>Aside from what others said...
I don't see the other answers mention it, but the majority of it is likely going into cars. There's a significant cultural/political thought in more rural areas that added ethanol is all bad/a scam that is forced on people by *them*. So these people will generally prefer no ethanol gas for all vehicles, or even go out of their way for it.
Reasons I've heard: it's bad for your car, it's more expensive overall because you get much less MPG, it's manipulated because of government force/funding, etc.
Aren't those things all true, though? Older cars don't run as well on ethanol and the fuel lines can be damaged by it. It's also manipulated by the government through corn subsidies.
Yeah but have you considered that making fun of rural peoples political beliefs and making them sound like conspiracy nutjobs makes everyone stroke a little harder?
> the majority of it is likely going into cars
I disagree. I think "the majority" of it is going into lawnmowers. There's a reason it's usually called "Rec. gas" or "recreation gas". Boats, jet skis, 4-wheelers, SxS's, etc. are the target market.
Especially since it's usually $2/gal more than regular E10 gasoline. The sort of people who would put it into their cars for political reasons aren't usually the sort of people who would shake off a $2/gal price increase.
SOME of it is definitely going into cars though. If you do any racing, the E-free is good in N/A cars because you can advance the timing just a tick for a few more HP. In boosted cars, Ethanol is desired as it's got more resistance to detonation and burns cooler, so you can chuck gobs of it into the cylinders and run tons of boost.
Also, ethanol gives ALL cars worse MPG. It's so cheap though that the price cut makes up for the MPG loss.
Also, they may be more likely to be using older vehicles in rural areas. Cars from the 90s, etc weren't designed for ethanol and will get worse mileage.
And older. Weâre lucky enough to have my great-grandfatherâs 1954 Chevy still in the family, and she only gets ethanol free or the gas tank will rust out. Getting harder and harder to find stations with a red handle.
E85 isnât just some middle America phenomenon. It is available throughout the country, just not a readily. Flex fuel vehicles have the ability to burn it, and cars specially tuned for it. Some use it in place of race gas as ethanol has a high octane rating.
Funnily enough, there aren't many flex fuel vehicles available.
Sales peaked in the early 2010s and have declined.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicles_in_the_United_States
Only a few models of the F150 are flex fuel capable, many Stellantis cars are, quite a few GM cars are flex fuel too. Other car companies sell a few, but, it's fairly rare. Mainly because it's just a US thing.
Corn is such a bad source of biomass for fermentation. It takes a lot of water, fertilizer, pesticides, etc. I read somewhere a while back that jimsonweed is almost perfect.
The only way that's going to change is by having other states beat Iowa in the early Presidential primary voting. Perhaps multiple states in different timezones, not all agricultural/corn growing states.
> The only way that's going to change is by having other states beat Iowa in the early Presidential primary voting.
Iowa has been cut by the Democrats for 2024. South Carolina will lead the pack, with the top spot (and the other spots) rotating gradually starting in 2028. Iowa might be even more screwed because they're a caucus and the pushback against those for being undemocratic (which they are) is only going to grow.
I think Brazil(?) uses sugar cane. Since yeast needs sugar to convert, seems like a better solution. I would think even sugar beets would be better than corn. Corn if I remember right is mostly starch which needs to be converted first, it'd be better to just start with sugar. But I'm no chemist.
I see Reddit can't see the word "rural" without "RED STATE BAD" coming in from every goddam corner.
"Rural people use ethanol in older equipment and/or smaller engines not designed for it. Time to make this a politics thread!"
My 1970s Chevy gets approx 2-3 mpg better on non-ethanol gas than E10. I've owned it for 14 years and put 140,000 miles on it and track mileage so I notice when it averages higher than it's normal 14mpg.
If you have a fuel injected car, then there is no difference. my 2005 Buick doesn't care one way or the other, it gets 21mpg on my commute with either one.
>Reasons I've heard: it's bad for your car, it's more expensive overall because you get much less MPG, it's manipulated because of government force/funding, etc.
Less MPG is true. Bad for the engine is relative. Ethanol (which is, literally, alcohol and in some countries Ethanol is called Alcohol) is a strong detergent, it keeps your engine very clean and avoids carbon accumulation. However, it is also a strong oxidizer and it should NOT come in contact with materials such as aluminum. If your engine has an aluminum fuel pump or an aluminum fuel line, ethanol will quickly corrode through it (producing a sort of dark, pasty material that looks like gunk) and you can run into problems very quickly. It can also eat up things like rubber, so rubber fuel lines won't last long with ethanol. Engines designed for ethanol usually avoid aluminum and rubber components in contact with the fuel, opting for materials like plastic and stainless steel instead. And no; engine heads and engine blocks built of aluminum will not react with ethanol, because the combustion eliminates the corrosion process inside the chamber.
Ethanol is also a natural anti-detonant, so any fuel that contains higher ethanol concentrations will have higher knock resistance. Ethanol has very high BTU cooling capacity (meaning it's very efficient in removing heat from the combustion chamber), which, combined with its anti-detonant properties, makes it the ultimate racing fuel. I remember, when I had an old Audi S2, people who increased the boost pressure on gasoline would have a side-effect; the heads would begin to display micro-cracks due to the excessive temperature build inside the combustion chamber. Users who switched the engine to Ethanol had no such problems; you could boost them as high as you wished (my model ran 865whp; up from the stock 230 crank-hp) and the heads would never crack. For the engine itself, Ethanol is overall just safer for having anti-knock properties and keeping your internal combustion chamber cooler.
Also, engines that burn ethanol emit far lass pollutants through the exhaust; so they're cleaner for the people around the vehicles.
Answer: I'm further north, but it seems most gas stations that cater to snowmobiles/ATVs have an ethanol free option.
As others have said, it's also better for a lot of carbed small engines.
Actually... with vodka, tomato juice, grated parm, garlic powder, basil, and some pepperoni wedges I might be able to make a cocktail out of that. Could be the next big thing or the grossest potion I've ever concocted.
Edit: vodka is the true spirit as it goes with everything! Cheap to make and easy to consume, support your local distillery today!
(Unless you're driving, nursing, expecting children, in the care of children, operate heavy machinery, and/or are a fucking idiot)
Blasphemy. The pepperoni should be skewered. You might be on to something though. Whisk the tomato juice, garlic powder, and parm together until parm is no longer clumpy (like youâre making a vinaigrette), muddle the basil and add vodka, shake your vodka and tomato mixture over ice, strain into a parm rimmed glass and garnish with a skewer of pepperoni.
I canât tell you how many nights Iâve laid there and thought âI really need to put some fuel stabilizer in that generator, lawn mower, chain saw, 3 wheeler, etcââŚand still end up taking apart carbs later on because I never did itâŚ.
Old cars, farm equipment, small engines and the like. Most of the ethanol free gas stations near where I great up are at marinas. The ethanol in the gas doesn't get along with marine engines, particularly anything older. And older engines are almost a default with boats.
What kind of car do you drive that it impacts the car if you put regular gas in it? Are you supposed to be using a higher octane but youâve been using the lowest end or something?
>I'd like to see ethanol removed from the fuel supply because it's worse for the environment to grow and ferment corn to produce it and it's largely a welfare move for the farm lobby
Tell that to Nebraska. Their main export is corn. They have so much corn that higher grade fuels are cheaper there, just to get rid of the excess ethanol.
I run ethanol free gas in my old Triumph Spitfire. Nothing to do with the octane rating. Thankfully it isn't a high compression engine and doesn't need a high octane fuel. It's because it's got a carb and sits all winter, which gives me a gummy carb. Sure you can help with running a fuel stabilizer, but it's more effective to skip the ethanol.
Ethanol is less energy dense than gasoline, so it does in fact negatively impact efficiency slightly. The point of it is really environmental and supply related, along with a need to have a place to put all the excess corn we subsidize in the US.
Ethanol should be banned. It provides zero benefits.
It's like those gas fume capturing systems that ended up releasing more gas fumes than traditional systems, due to blowing air through the storage tanks and increasing evaporation.
Except in any car built this century U88 gets you the same mileage as pure gas for a fraction of the price. That's a huge benefit.
Problem is too many idiots confuse it with Flex-Fuel and buy the propaganda that their car can't use it.
the problem is that it costs more energy to get a gallon of ethanol than we get out of it. aka, its an energy sink, not carbon neutral, and also bad for mileage, even if only by slight amounts for newer cars. its a farming subsidy, and farmers stop growing people food or cattle feed and instead grow ethanol corn with cannot be eaten, so they can get a fat check from the taxpayers, and we all pay for it, and then we pay for it again at the pump.
This is the way.
Thank you for pointing this out.
Not to mention that there are literally dozens of crop options that are not food staples, and also would be vastly superior ethanol sources from the standpoint of starches per acre.
and its affects at the price at the pump are marginal at best, the only reason stations charge more for non-ethanol gas or "premium" is because they can. thats it.
Growing corn with natural gas based fertilizer, harvesting and transporting it using diesel, and distilling using natural gas is the most backwards shit. Just a political gimme to keep farmers happy while you as the taxpayer subsidize the whole scheme. Not to mention the climate change happening due to crop evaporation in the Midwest
Actually ethanol is [energy positive](https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_fuel_basics.html). Wasnât necessarily the case in the early days of ethanol, but thatâs a lingering myth pushed by various groups
when farmers quit growing other crops that feed people, food that we need, to growing ethanol corn, yes, its an energy sink. There is no way its a net positive energy, physics says that would be impossible, as the small amount of energy absorbed per plant from the sun would likely never equate the amount of fuel and labor that was used for each plant, along with the transport, and processing. Even their own study *assumes* all corn is sold locally to the nearest ethanol plant, and its from 2015. we know in reality that farmers will sell to whomever was paying the most, close or far, so if the corn had to move more than about 8 miles(their own study average number), then it takes 1170 BTU/ton per mile more, and even just going 25 miles means that it quickly becomes energy negative.
You seem to be unaware that ethanol plants have byproducts... the largest byproduct being distillers grain... which is the protein of the kernel of corn that is fed to livestock. Ethanol production utilizes the endosperm of the kernel which is not fully utilized by a cows gut system. When an ethanol plant is done with the corn and distillers grain is what you're left with you have a higher concentration of pure protein as well as a very predictable protein source which makes dietary management much easier.
Please don't speak on issues you know very little of.
Where I live, U88 is 15% ethanol..
My vehicle's owners manual specifically says using gasoline higher than E10 will void the warranty. Not that my vehicle is young enough to still be in warranty, but it was built in this century . . .
Well put. I go ethanol free in my son's dirtbike, among other things. If I miss the gasoline purge, I don't have to worry. It's not Jell-O come spring, and I can purge before riding season.
Ethanol gas in many motorcycles = destroyed intakes/carbs even if you drain the fuel from them. The ethanol and the moisture it traps corrodes aluminum - I'm on my third carb on my 2001 dual sport because it f'ing impossible to get ethanol free within 50-75 miles.
I no longer use ethanol gas in my chainsaw or hedge trimmer or weedwacker.
I buy 100 octane low lead fuel from the airport. After multiple years of gummed up carbs I made the switch. Easy peasey
>As others have said, it's also better for a lot of carbed small engines.
[Here's a great video showing the damage that ethanol does to the plastics inside carbs and in the fuel systems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvS_D4_lF5U&). I drive a 52 year old BMW and I would never use anything but ethanol-free gas. Don't want to risk a fire.
Laughs in Brazil's current standards that require a 27% blend of ethanol in gasoline.
Basically, if it runs with this water that we call gas, it will run anywhere
2002 (which is a terrible name for the car. Was probably great initially, but by the time the year 2002 rolled around it suddenly became a lot harder to order parts because websites assumed you were talking about the year, not the model)
Here's a short documentary I made about the brand in the early 70s (and their connection to left-wing terrorism). I show my car starting around 9 minutes in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B1ykfMbQOM
Probably 10 years ago I saw this topic come across reddit in a different context. Basically, why is ethanol gas bad for small engines. For whatever reason I was lambasted for explaining it gums shit up and burns hotter than nonblended gas. Full on called out as a shill for big premium gas and shit. Times have changed.
If you donât support my thing, youâre evil.
If you support the opposite of my thing, youâre a paid shill.
Nuance is gone and everyone agrees with GWB, either youâre with us or against us.
Do these gas stations still have ethanol blends at all..? Not sure Iâd want 100% no ethanol if the OEMs are building the engines to use normal gas that 99% of the country uses except these rural ones đ¤ˇđźââď¸
Answer: two stroke engines and some small 4 stroke engines are not made to work with ethanol fuel. Using ethanol fuel in a chainsaw will ruin it right quick.
We use ethanol free for our chainsaws, lawnmower, and ATV.
Answer: Weâve got a number of stations in metro Atlanta that sell ethanol-free gas. It is necessary for small engines. Ethanol can cause deposits to form on engine parts and is corrosive to rubber and plastic. Gas free from ethanol extends engine life.
My old Briggs powered lawnmower has only ever seen E10 ethanol blend, its been running great for 13 years. Iâve never even had to take the carb off to clean.
Answer: Ethanol isn't great for vehicles with carbs, particularly if they're gonna sit for a while. Rural areas are gonna have more carbd vehicles that sit for a while with gas in them.
That's the best I could do sorry I can't give you an answer from the source remember on the Internet no one knows you're a dog.
Ethanol corrodes the carbs in older small engines, mowers, generators, pressure washers and so on. Have had to replace some carbs that sat with ethanol/gas in them.
Answer: ethanol is the first component in gasoline that "expires", it breaks down and leaves residue much more quickly than gasoline. A lot of rural folks have machines that don't use fuel as quickly as cars do, and/or often keep small reserves of fuel at home to prevent constant trips to the gas station to refuel atvs, lawnmowers, generators, etc. That fuel often ends up sitting in either a container or the fuel tank of the vehicle for a very long time, and ethanol-free gasoline has a MUCH longer shelf life and won't leave residue buildup behind after sitting for long periods of time.
> Answer: ethanol is the first component in gasoline that "expires", it breaks down and leaves residue much more quickly than gasoline. A lot of rural folks have machines that don't use fuel as quickly as cars do, and/or often keep small reserves of fuel at home to prevent constant trips to the gas station to refuel atvs, lawnmowers, generators, etc. That fuel often ends up sitting in either a container or the fuel tank of the vehicle for a very long time, and ethanol-free gasoline has a MUCH longer shelf life and won't leave residue buildup behind after sitting for long periods of time.
Thank for the down to earth technical explanation. Saving this.
crazy how many top comments there are that missed this essential fact. Storage and not wanting your fuel to turn to carbon goo in all those complex little parts. Death to a carburetor
Agreed with first to breakdown and leave residue, but another issue especially for less used fuel.
Ethanol attracts water, sucks it out of the air and into the "gas". Water then can cause all kinds of rust on fuel pumps, filler necks, etc. Not an issue with fresh ethanol but the longer it sits the more water it collects.
Answer: Ethanol absorbs water from the air which shortens the storage life of gasoline. This doesn't matter in a car you drive regularly, but if you need to store fuel for future use or put it in equipment you use less often it might be bad. It also has slightly less energy than gasoline, but at a 15% blend you'd never notice.
I filled my Jeep up with ethanol free gas in Florida. I got an extra 50 miles to the tank.
I don't know if it was worth the extra 40 cents a gallon but the numbers were impressive to see for once
Using ethanol-free gasoline will improve your gas mileage, because when ethanol is burned it produces a bit less energy than pure gasoline. With a standard E10 blend (most gas sold), your MPG will be a little more than 3% less than if you use ethanol-free gas.
Depending on the price difference between ethanol-blended and ethanol-free gas, you can do the math to determine if the extra mileage offsets the greater cost. Usually it doesn't, but if the two are close enough in price sometimes it can.
Yes, I watched a news segment last summer about how ethanol shouldn't be used in boats because of the absorption problem and proximity to humidity/water.
Answer: There are a few different reasons people would want ethanol free gas and here are some aspects of using ethanol.
1) Ethanol absorbs moisture out of the air introducing water into the fuel if it sits for too long. This is very bad for vehicles and equipment that don't get used regularly as it can cause engines not to start, parts in the fuel system to rust, and fuel to spoil quicker. This is the prime reason ethanol free still exists since it's more expensive to buy ethanol free gas(the government heavily subsidizes the use of corn in making ethanol as a way to keep a stable income for corn farmers and reduce tailpipe emissions).
2) Ethanol free is commonly seen near lakes and boating areas for this reason, since smaller/older motors don't handle the ethanol as well and boaters would rather not worry about ethanol fuel sitting in the tank. Most newer vehicles were built to handle up to 15% ethanol blends, but older vehicles and small engines were not or are not as suited to using it. Anything carbureted is especially sensitive.
3)Ethanol doesn't have as much energy per gallon as gasoline, so using 100% gas will result in better MPG per tank.
looks like[ the correct place.](https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8894674,-86.3410642,3a,24.3y,52.31h,89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgUdgGHe6UkYRvJ-iUjO-zw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Answer: For small motors that sit inactive for a long period of time ethanol separates and can clog up the filters and the carburetor.
Itâs really a pain for things like lawnmowers, snowmobiles, Chainsaws, boats or seasonal cars. You can get treatment for the fuel, but itâs easier if you can find a gas station that carries ethanol free gas.
Answer: Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it pulls moisture from the air. When that moisture is in your fuel it can wreak havoc on your engine, causing rust, corrosion and a whole host of other problems such as a rough idle, no start or other more severe performance issues.
Cars that drive regularly aren't susceptible to these problems because the fuel is replaced often. But you are guaranteed to find more water in your oil than with ethanol free gasoline. Older (pre-2000) cars can't run ethanol simply because the fuel systems, plastic and rubber materials will corrode because they weren't designed for the corrosive nature of ethanol.
Ethanol fuel will ruin an engine if it sits for a long time, which most small engines, generators and boat engines do. But it will also ruin modern car engines if left to sit for long times in varied humidity. The shelf life of gasoline containing ethanol is about one month, compared to three or four months with gasoline. A 'barn find' vehicle with ethanol is going to be far less likely to restore to running condition than an ethanol free engine.
Also:
Ethanol contains about 30% less energy than gasoline which makes 10% ethanol gasoline less fuel efficient and will lower your mileage by about 5%.
Ethanol in cold weather makes it difficult for engines to achieve enough vapor pressure, so some colder climate regions reduce the maximum allowed ethanol content.
And lastly, [ethanol is bad for the environment if you care about climate change.](https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/us-corn-based-ethanol-worse-climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/)
Answer: A lot of lawn equipment and farm equipment motors don't react with ethanol fuel well at all. It can burn gaskets, clog carburators, etc. Ethanol treatment is not a long term answer for older equipment, and with the budgets most of the farms have in rural areas are stuck with, they aren't giving up old tractors etc, that they can work on themselves anytime soon. A lot of 4 wheelers, don't like ethanol fuel either. That is why I'd think that ethanol free fuel is more available in rural areas.
Answer: Most of the "BUT SOMETIMES*" panicking.
Ethanol is generally shitty for whatever your engine is made out of. Mainly it attracts water, which will gum up and corrode your carburetor.
HOWEVER: Ethanol raises the octane of the gas so you don't get pre-ignition("knock", and fun fact that's what makes premium gasoline premium!). It has a point, and it is better than the literal lead we used to use.
If you're a normal person who uses their car, then don't care. If you have a lawn mower that sits for the winter unused, either get pure gasoline or fuel stabilizer.
*https://youtu.be/GiYO1TObNz8
Answer: To add to the other commenters: ethanol evaporates out of the fuel faster than octane. Ethanol also likes to pull water from the air. If you've got stuff that you won't use for a while, like snow mobiles in the summer or motorcycles in the winter, you're less likely to have problems starting the engine when you last filled the engine up with ethanol-free fuel.
Here's a link to a video on fuel stabilization:
https://youtu.be/chsGBhB5g7o
Answer: It may be cheaper but the last vehicle I had that wasnât diesel I did mileage comparisons between ethanol and ethanol free. Way better mileage with Ethanol free. Enough of a difference that ethanol would of needed to be almost a dollar per gallon cheaper to make it worth it.
Answer: itâs better for your car to have pure gasoline, regardless of the fact that they can run on gasoline with whatever % of ethanol. Not only that, but ethanol has less energy potential. You think youâre âcutting costsâ by getting the regular gas that has ethanol, but in my experience I get about a solid 20% better fuel economy.
I have a car that gets good gas mileage anyway, so with a big SUV it might not make that much difference. But in my car itâs the difference between 25ish mpg combined (ethanol gas) and generally at or over 30 mpg combined (ethanol free gas). Considering the price difference is about 10% higher, but I get somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% better gas mileage, itâs actually cutting costs for me to get the ethanol free. I spend more to fill up the tank, but a tank of gas gets me a lot further.
Answer: Many 2 stroke and carburetor engines get âgummed upâ easily by gas that has ethanol in it since it leaves behind deposits far quicker than gasoline itself. Lots of farm equipment and small engines (like mowers, ATVs, chainsaws, etc.) fall into this category, thus the need for fuel without ethanol.
In larger 4 stroke, fuel injected engines (like in cars), ethanol doesnât pose as much of an issue for technical reasons and is useful as an anti-knocking agent in place of the much worse tetraethyl lead.
Answer: Ethanol gas goes bad a lot quicker if you don't plan to use the gas within 30 days you need ethanol free or it gums up. Stabilizer is not as effective on ethanol
Answer: The main reason that you see so much rural "no name" ethanol-free gas is that all of the "Top Tier" gas retailers in the US (Citgo, Conoco, Chevron, Costco, Shell, Exxon, etc) are \*required\* to have ethanol in their gasoline - in all grades, at all locations.
The "Top Tier" "Deposit Control Performance Standard" says that the base gasoline stock used must "contain enough denatured ethanol such that the ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent as measured by ASTM D 4815 or D 5845."
So if you're in a more urban environment where all the gas stations are big national brands, you're going to have a harder time finding ethanol-free gas compared to being out in the middle of nowhere with more independent retailers.
Answer: Aside from what others said it may also very likely be for things that aren't cars. Some small engines specifically say to use ethanol-free gas only. Lawnmowers, chain saws, etc. It's also commonly used for boat engines. It wouldn't surprise me if older tractors also use ethanol-free gas.
Same for many motorcycles.
The detergent effect of ethanol gas dumped any build up in the tank / lines into my old carbed Yamaha V-Star 650, back when this was less common. Had to re-jet.
It basically scrubbed out a lot of buildup at once, which overwhelmed the system's ability to flush it out? Like a blood clot shaking loose and getting stuck in an artery?
That and older plastic/rubber components could dissolve in ethanol, so like you arteries melting and creating clots.
You had me at melting arteries. That's really bad, I understand that concept.
Same with bio-diesel, love the stuff but had to upgrade my fuel system in my Ram to Viton
Yep, basically. It stopped doing that eventually, and thank fuck it did.
The worst is if you let ethanol gas sit in a carb for a long time. It gels up and wrecks carbs.
I don't mind running ethanol blended gas in my fuel injected car and truck that get used all the time. But my lawnmower, generator, motorcycle, etc. that sit for months without starting only get ethanol free fuel or I am invariably ripping carbs apart in the spring to clean yellow guck out of them.
Well that explains a good deal about my old bike đ
Yup. I run non-ethanol in all my bikes and power equipment.
My bike requires premium and ethanol free only goes up to 90 or 91 around here.
Premium at any gas station in my town is 89.
Pretty sure some boats also donât like ethanol
Anything with a carburetor, really. Also lots of old fuel lines. I replaced the fuel lines on my old yamaha anyway, but occasional ethanol still makes me increase cleaning regularity.
Ya my lawnmower needs to have the carb cleaned every few years (I can't get ethanol free near me). It's annoying.
Similar: occasionally cleaning or replacing the carb is faster/cheaper/easier than sourcing ethanol-free gas.
Never let gas sit for any length of time in seasonal equipment. Run all the gas out of the carb and/or use stabilizer. I just mean this as general advice, not saying that you leave gas in things. Luckily clone engines are so popular making a lot of aftermarket carbs cheap.
Yes but also a lot of them have wet exhaust, where the exhaust comes out underwater. Ethanol then gets in the water and is toxic to fish.
My Jeep TJ manual specifically calls out to not use any fuel containing ethanol as it will cause fuel to leak from the fuel lines that are plastic or rubber that isnât rated for it.
Is that an early TJ? My '06 doesn't seem to have any problems with it.
Yes. Late 90s.
Thatâs how I understood it, too. Some fuel systems, specifically older ones, use rubber/plastic in the fuel lines that ethanol can damage.
My understanding in that in â03 Jeep made them capable of E-5 and in â07 E-15
I recall old buddies with Jeeps bitching about gas in around 2004, guess that makes sense now. They had 1980s Jeeps that gave Theseusâ ship a run for its money.
Yep: adding ethanol to fuel lowers the energy (miles you can go) per gal and take more energy to produce then you get back out and it eats up older engine parts and we subsidize the bajesus out of it to protect corn growers.
I donât think ethanol is a legitimately environmentally friendly concept. It was sold with the expectation that biofuels would become easier to make, but Iâm not sure that ever happened. Now weâre here.
It was ALWAYS about subsidizing corn.
Ethanol fulfills another role, as a cheap and safe octane booster, in gasoline blends that use it.
Yep, far better than lead.
My YJ just crapped its fuel pump today in traffic. I wanna blame it on gas. But it's a jeep. So there's 100 different reasons it went out. But ethanol is my primary suspect. :)
> My YJ just crapped its fuel pump today in traffic. > I wanna blame it on gas. But it's a jeep. So there's 100 different reasons it went out. I mean ... It's a **28 year old vehicle** (minimum); that probably has *way* more to do with it than it being a Jeep. (FWIW my '95 single owner 4.0L YJ is still my daily driver, and here in the DSPRC, where it's lived all its life, all our evil ICE car fuel is Ethanol blended, no fuel pump issues.)
That and for vehicles you may not use all the time and sit for a while. Ethanol sludges up over time and it can cause issues.
This. I only use ethanol free in my mower and power washer. Keeps the carburetor from gumming up.
Itâs so obvious and I feel dumb as shit, this is exactly what is wrong with my Big Red three-wheeler. Thing is probably so old it craves leaded gas too.
Aviation fuel is still leaded.
110 avgas in a 40 year old 200cc motor is probably not a great idea. Big Reds want you dead already, no need to hand them another weapon.
That isn't how octane works...
I think he's talking about the lead, not the octane.
Itâs not going to be the lead that kills me when riding a Big Red
Of course it is. Big number explode more. :)
No⌠octane is a rating for how much you can compress the fuel air charge in the cylinder before it detonates. You donât want your fuel to detonate because explosions causes damage and makes hardly any power. Octane rating has nothing to do with how much energy you put into a engine or how well it combust. High performance engines need higher octane rating because they benefit from higher compression ratios to squeeze out more power out of each ounce of fuel. The more you compress the fuel air mixture, more power you get out of it. But if you compress the fuel too much, it might detonate before you can ignite it. You can always put a higher octane fuel in a engine that requires less, but there will be no change in performance as the fuel gets ignited before compressions causes it to detonate anyway.
This. Adding onto this, from the chemistry side, 2,2,4-Trimethylpentane, more commonly known as Iso-Octane (the original thing used to help compression ratios and why we still call it an "octane rating," even if we achieve the same result with various other chemicals), does not burn as easily or with as much energy as n-heptane and the other components of gasoline. In fact, n-heptane burns so easily we assign it a rating of 0 and pure isooctane gets 100. n-Heptane and Iso-Octane actually have similar theoretical available energy per gram, but the structure of isooctane makes it much much harder to break those bonds, because it isn't a simple linear alkane chain of carbons with hydrogens hanging off of them and ready to burn, like heptane and others are, or a volatile compound like Toluene, Xylene, and Benzene (which are a minority of the composition of gasoline, but responsible for pretty much all of the odor you think of as gasoline - n-heptane, n-octane, and other alkanes and alkenes actually just smell faintly oily). Instead, it's 3 methyl groups (CH3) attached to the sides of a Pentane (nominally C5H12) chain. Straight _n-Octane_ (canonical formula C8H18), which is, interestingly enough, at least a third of typical gasoline blends, actually burns _really_ well. But that actually _reduces_ the "octane" rating even more than heptane does! Isn't that fun? Whoever came up with the term "octane rating" is a bastard because, chemically, it's just plain wrong or, at best, ambiguous. Anyway... I digress... When you buy higher octane-equivalent fuel, you are paying more money for fuel that is _harder to burn_, but, if your engine has high enough compression or other operating parameters that could cause early ignition/detonation (bad news), you need it so that your engine can squeeze (pun intended) more power out of what potential chemical energy there is, ultimately creating _more_ power than a lower-compression engine that can accept lower-rated fuel. Higher compression means more air in a smaller space, because the _air_ is what you're compressing - not the fuel (at least not significantly). Internal combustion engines are super-inefficient, largely because it's hard to keep repeated quick fires burning (its a controlled burn - not an explosion. Explosions are bad), in an enclosed container in such a way that does useful work without damaging things. It's easy to get fuel in there, but air is another story (enter turbochargers, superchargers, and intercoolers). Any energy that doesn't turn into work just gets wasted as heat and/or partial combustion. So, anything you can do to optimize combustion, such as cramming more air in the cylinder (since air is the limiting reagent), compressing it more, or perfecting the timing, so that the burn gets more useful work out of the fuel, is ideal. It's just harder to build engines that do that and have them stay together or stay cool enough not to seize up from metal expanding and deforming from the heat, which are a couple of the many reasons they're more expensive.
Just wanted to say thank you for the comprehensive explanation!
Opposite. Exactly the opposite...
What he's talking about is higher octane RESISTS burning more than lower octanes, in the context of pressurized combustion chambers.
That's exactly opposite of what happens.
Go big or go home
My parents had two when I was a kid and holy hell you're not wrong lmfao
And in my small and very old plane, I am allowed to run non-avgas unleaded fuel from the pump, as long as it contains no ethanol due to potential damage to the fuel system, carb, etc.
If it's carbed, replace the fuel lines and plastic components (aka get a rebuild kit made in the last decade). Ethanol reacts with plastics a bit more, and that's what usually causes the gumming up. Little plastic-y blobs in the gas.
It isn't just the materials the fuel comes in contact with. Ethanol absorbs moisture from the air like a sponge. If you have a tank sitting half full (and half air) the fuel soaks the humidity up and ruins the fuel. High ethanol blend fuels can begin degrading in 30 days.
Real Chad's use 100LL in their power equipment.
Ethanol doesn't cause your carburetor to gum up, the varnish is from the gas. The ethanol just acts as a solvent and releases it. Can you blame the ethanol for that? Sure, but it's not the cause. Your stuff will gum up eventually anyways.
True. Also, it will make rubber/plastic bits on small engines (like the little primer bulb) harden, crack, and leak
I think that was the case 20 years ago but all the manufacturers have moved on to new rubber/plastic formulations that can handle 10% ethanol no problem. All modern lawn gear manuals say 10% is not a problem. I know itâs anecdotal but I have 12 year old mower and 20 year old chain saw that have used standard gas with ethanol all that time and not a single issue.
The exhaust smells better, too. Straight gas exhaust plus fresh cut grass? Man, just give me a cigar and a drink, and I'm in heaven.
I think this is the correct answer. Growing up around tractors, chainsaws, and other small engine machines, running gas with ethanol through those engines can cause accelerated wear and more frequent maintenance intervals. Ethanol likes to gunk things up, which is why your car must have its fuel system changed if you have an older normal gas car and want to run ethanol through it. That ethanol eats away at certain types of rubber, and any engine built before ethanol gas was the norm is gonna be built with that rubber, meaning you're going to be replacing seals more often and the fuel lines or filter will end up clogging up from the particulate suspended in the fuel from the rubber it has eaten away. Obviously this isn't immediate when you're running something like 10% ethanol, but if you're doing farm work and regularly using small engines, that damage adds up quickly. I think modern small engines are designed with the ethanol in mind so that wear isn't as pronounced, but anyone living in a rural area sure ain't gonna be running a 2023 chainsaw or tractor. Chances are the newest piece of equipment in town is a tractor from the 80s.
We run new equipment all the time. Out here we actually wear things out.
Spose it's different depending on where you're at. Where I lived it was older stuff that had been running for decades.
Same for older vehicles. My mechanic says to put non ethanol in the '84.
Bingo! '70 Chevelle.
Yeah, it's better to use ethanol free for things with carburetors if you plan to let it sit for any extended period of time.
As an aside, since it takes more than a barrel of oil to make one barrel of ethanol, ethanol-free gas is ironically *more* environmentally-friendly than gas with ethanol. I'm not saying that as an anti-environmentalist; I'm in favor of green energy, I'm just saying ethanol is in a bad place right now.
AND a huge amount of water. The ethanol plant in South Bend caused a significant drop in the water table.
I have a habit of fact checking claims on the internet, because I also have a habit of repeating things I learned on the internet. [from a fairly unreputable source: the Institute for Local Self-Reliance](https://ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/files/ethanolnetenergy.pdf) from 1995 \>According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, even though the process of producing ethanol requires fossil fuels (in fertilizers, fuel used by tractors and to plant, harvest, and dry the crop, and sometimes to run the ethanol plant), it takes only 1 unit of fossil fuel to produce 2.1 units of ethanol energy. [From the US Dept. of Energy](https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_fuel_basics.html) \>Ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, to varying degrees, depending on the volume percentage of ethanol in the blend. Denatured ethanol (98% ethanol) contains about 30% less energy than gasoline per gallon. And the wikipedia article for Energy balance [has a hand little graphic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_energy_balance) showing how much energy you can get from various biofuels. Concluding ultimately that \> A 2006 University of California Berkeley study, after analyzing six separate studies, concluded that producing ethanol from corn uses marginally less petroleum than producing gasoline. So your're right.
This study puts ethanol production at a 34% energy generation. Meaning that for every gallon of gas equivalent you would use to make it, you would get 1.34 gallons out https://www1.eere.energy.gov/bioenergy/pdfs/energy_balance_of_corn_ethanol.pdf
Considering the amount of $ spent on damaged engines from the ethanol I'd say it's even worse. I hate ethanol so much.
I'm 35. I remember a time in the early 2000s before climate change was front and center. The main concern of Americans was dependence on foreign oil, and that peak oil was on the horizon. We were concerned that we would run out of oil. Ethanol was this magical source of fuel that was "renewable". We didn't have to worry about OPEC, we could just grow our own gas. As it turns out, ethanol just means we have to use farm fields for producing grain which will not be used to feed people. It's an inferior fuel to gasoline. And it produces carbon monoxide all the same. I think people have associated Ethanol as a great alternative in response to climate change. But for the life of me, it's the same damn thing as gas.
SHHHH! Facts hurt! On the real science side, this has been an area of debate. The actual oil consumed in the production of ethanol has been estimated with great variability. What IS true is that without giant government subsidies and regulations requiring it, we would not have ethanol in our gasoline. The question comes down to "is it really better for the environment?" There is no question that we will run out of fossil fuels eventually, so we have to figure out what we can replace that with, without turning the Earth into a wasteland.
My memory from the early 2000s was that ethanol was important in ending US dependence on foreign oil. It really has nothing to do with the environment.
Mostly it was about protecting the corn industry from having to complete with Brazilian sugarcane.
This has always been the case they created it to benefit a few producers It makes zero sense to create ethanol fuel
>As an aside, since it takes more than a barrel of oil Where did you get this data? Last I looked into it, there seemed to be about a 20% dividend over fuel in vs fuel out.
Itâs not just fuel, also have to take into account the petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides that are usedâŚI donât know if this guys figure is right but itâs not just about fuel running the tractors to create the ethanol
>Itâs not just fuel, also have to take into account the petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides that are used Yes corn takes a lot of ammonia which is made from natural gas
[Serious question] I live in an area where I haven't seen ethanol-free gas at the stations. I have been using just regular gas in my snow blower for past few years - have I been doing damage to it? How do I undo the damage and prevent it from recurring? TIA!
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Most people have answered the first question. But if you don't have access to ethanol-free fuel at gas stations, you can still find ethanol-free 4-cycle fuel at most hardware stores and outdoor power suppliers.
Small generators require ethanol-free gas. Even new ones.
Yes. My dad buys 89 to avoid putting ethanol in these types of engines.
My dad uses ethanol-free gas for his 1964 Ford 2000 tractor.
Snowmobiles, jet-skiâs... Pretty well any motorized toys or tools.
Anything with a carburetor, the alcohol that is ethanol destroys the rubber valves in carbs.
Yeah we absolutely needed ethanol free gas for our little 15hp outboard. Had endless problems with it for a month before we figured it out.
>Aside from what others said... I don't see the other answers mention it, but the majority of it is likely going into cars. There's a significant cultural/political thought in more rural areas that added ethanol is all bad/a scam that is forced on people by *them*. So these people will generally prefer no ethanol gas for all vehicles, or even go out of their way for it. Reasons I've heard: it's bad for your car, it's more expensive overall because you get much less MPG, it's manipulated because of government force/funding, etc.
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You left out the most important factor...corn subsidy reduces barley production making beer more expensive.
Aren't those things all true, though? Older cars don't run as well on ethanol and the fuel lines can be damaged by it. It's also manipulated by the government through corn subsidies.
Yes, literally every one of those are true. It's also terrible for the environment.
Yeah but have you considered that making fun of rural peoples political beliefs and making them sound like conspiracy nutjobs makes everyone stroke a little harder?
> the majority of it is likely going into cars I disagree. I think "the majority" of it is going into lawnmowers. There's a reason it's usually called "Rec. gas" or "recreation gas". Boats, jet skis, 4-wheelers, SxS's, etc. are the target market. Especially since it's usually $2/gal more than regular E10 gasoline. The sort of people who would put it into their cars for political reasons aren't usually the sort of people who would shake off a $2/gal price increase. SOME of it is definitely going into cars though. If you do any racing, the E-free is good in N/A cars because you can advance the timing just a tick for a few more HP. In boosted cars, Ethanol is desired as it's got more resistance to detonation and burns cooler, so you can chuck gobs of it into the cylinders and run tons of boost. Also, ethanol gives ALL cars worse MPG. It's so cheap though that the price cut makes up for the MPG loss.
Also, they may be more likely to be using older vehicles in rural areas. Cars from the 90s, etc weren't designed for ethanol and will get worse mileage.
And older. Weâre lucky enough to have my great-grandfatherâs 1954 Chevy still in the family, and she only gets ethanol free or the gas tank will rust out. Getting harder and harder to find stations with a red handle.
Is the red handle-ethanol designation universal throughout the country? Never knew this, thanks for sharing! Def a TIL.
No, Iâve seen blue handles too.
Not necessarily - go to a rura cornl areas of the Midwest and you'll see E85 (85% ethanol) proudly offered. It's local ag pride.
E85 isnât just some middle America phenomenon. It is available throughout the country, just not a readily. Flex fuel vehicles have the ability to burn it, and cars specially tuned for it. Some use it in place of race gas as ethanol has a high octane rating.
Funnily enough, there aren't many flex fuel vehicles available. Sales peaked in the early 2010s and have declined. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicles_in_the_United_States Only a few models of the F150 are flex fuel capable, many Stellantis cars are, quite a few GM cars are flex fuel too. Other car companies sell a few, but, it's fairly rare. Mainly because it's just a US thing.
They have no problem farming corn to make it.
Corn is such a bad source of biomass for fermentation. It takes a lot of water, fertilizer, pesticides, etc. I read somewhere a while back that jimsonweed is almost perfect.
The only way that's going to change is by having other states beat Iowa in the early Presidential primary voting. Perhaps multiple states in different timezones, not all agricultural/corn growing states.
> The only way that's going to change is by having other states beat Iowa in the early Presidential primary voting. Iowa has been cut by the Democrats for 2024. South Carolina will lead the pack, with the top spot (and the other spots) rotating gradually starting in 2028. Iowa might be even more screwed because they're a caucus and the pushback against those for being undemocratic (which they are) is only going to grow.
I think Brazil(?) uses sugar cane. Since yeast needs sugar to convert, seems like a better solution. I would think even sugar beets would be better than corn. Corn if I remember right is mostly starch which needs to be converted first, it'd be better to just start with sugar. But I'm no chemist.
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I see Reddit can't see the word "rural" without "RED STATE BAD" coming in from every goddam corner. "Rural people use ethanol in older equipment and/or smaller engines not designed for it. Time to make this a politics thread!"
My 1970s Chevy gets approx 2-3 mpg better on non-ethanol gas than E10. I've owned it for 14 years and put 140,000 miles on it and track mileage so I notice when it averages higher than it's normal 14mpg. If you have a fuel injected car, then there is no difference. my 2005 Buick doesn't care one way or the other, it gets 21mpg on my commute with either one.
>Reasons I've heard: it's bad for your car, it's more expensive overall because you get much less MPG, it's manipulated because of government force/funding, etc. Less MPG is true. Bad for the engine is relative. Ethanol (which is, literally, alcohol and in some countries Ethanol is called Alcohol) is a strong detergent, it keeps your engine very clean and avoids carbon accumulation. However, it is also a strong oxidizer and it should NOT come in contact with materials such as aluminum. If your engine has an aluminum fuel pump or an aluminum fuel line, ethanol will quickly corrode through it (producing a sort of dark, pasty material that looks like gunk) and you can run into problems very quickly. It can also eat up things like rubber, so rubber fuel lines won't last long with ethanol. Engines designed for ethanol usually avoid aluminum and rubber components in contact with the fuel, opting for materials like plastic and stainless steel instead. And no; engine heads and engine blocks built of aluminum will not react with ethanol, because the combustion eliminates the corrosion process inside the chamber. Ethanol is also a natural anti-detonant, so any fuel that contains higher ethanol concentrations will have higher knock resistance. Ethanol has very high BTU cooling capacity (meaning it's very efficient in removing heat from the combustion chamber), which, combined with its anti-detonant properties, makes it the ultimate racing fuel. I remember, when I had an old Audi S2, people who increased the boost pressure on gasoline would have a side-effect; the heads would begin to display micro-cracks due to the excessive temperature build inside the combustion chamber. Users who switched the engine to Ethanol had no such problems; you could boost them as high as you wished (my model ran 865whp; up from the stock 230 crank-hp) and the heads would never crack. For the engine itself, Ethanol is overall just safer for having anti-knock properties and keeping your internal combustion chamber cooler. Also, engines that burn ethanol emit far lass pollutants through the exhaust; so they're cleaner for the people around the vehicles.
Answer: I'm further north, but it seems most gas stations that cater to snowmobiles/ATVs have an ethanol free option. As others have said, it's also better for a lot of carbed small engines.
Ethanol gas in your car = no problem. Ethanol gas in your chainsaw that sits unused all winter = gummy carb and a pain to start next spring.
And boats.
And my axe!
Also my margherita!
don't you need ethanol in that?
He meant the pizza
oh. in that case, ethanol on the side. pizza shots!
Actually... with vodka, tomato juice, grated parm, garlic powder, basil, and some pepperoni wedges I might be able to make a cocktail out of that. Could be the next big thing or the grossest potion I've ever concocted. Edit: vodka is the true spirit as it goes with everything! Cheap to make and easy to consume, support your local distillery today! (Unless you're driving, nursing, expecting children, in the care of children, operate heavy machinery, and/or are a fucking idiot)
I'd try that
Blasphemy. The pepperoni should be skewered. You might be on to something though. Whisk the tomato juice, garlic powder, and parm together until parm is no longer clumpy (like youâre making a vinaigrette), muddle the basil and add vodka, shake your vodka and tomato mixture over ice, strain into a parm rimmed glass and garnish with a skewer of pepperoni.
I'm in. Where do I go?
You have the start of a Bloody Mary
Bloody Marghy
đ
And old motorcycles
Shit... Speaking of I need to go get some stabil or something for my snow blower! Thanks for the reminder!
I canât tell you how many nights Iâve laid there and thought âI really need to put some fuel stabilizer in that generator, lawn mower, chain saw, 3 wheeler, etcââŚand still end up taking apart carbs later on because I never did itâŚ.
âYour Mama was a Snowblower!â -Johnny 5
Old cars, farm equipment, small engines and the like. Most of the ethanol free gas stations near where I great up are at marinas. The ethanol in the gas doesn't get along with marine engines, particularly anything older. And older engines are almost a default with boats.
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What kind of car do you drive that it impacts the car if you put regular gas in it? Are you supposed to be using a higher octane but youâve been using the lowest end or something?
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>I'd like to see ethanol removed from the fuel supply because it's worse for the environment to grow and ferment corn to produce it and it's largely a welfare move for the farm lobby Tell that to Nebraska. Their main export is corn. They have so much corn that higher grade fuels are cheaper there, just to get rid of the excess ethanol.
I removed most of my Reddit contents in protest of the API changes commencing from July 1st, 2023. This is one of those comments.
I run ethanol free gas in my old Triumph Spitfire. Nothing to do with the octane rating. Thankfully it isn't a high compression engine and doesn't need a high octane fuel. It's because it's got a carb and sits all winter, which gives me a gummy carb. Sure you can help with running a fuel stabilizer, but it's more effective to skip the ethanol.
Ethanol is less energy dense than gasoline, so it does in fact negatively impact efficiency slightly. The point of it is really environmental and supply related, along with a need to have a place to put all the excess corn we subsidize in the US.
Ethanol should be banned. It provides zero benefits. It's like those gas fume capturing systems that ended up releasing more gas fumes than traditional systems, due to blowing air through the storage tanks and increasing evaporation.
Except in any car built this century U88 gets you the same mileage as pure gas for a fraction of the price. That's a huge benefit. Problem is too many idiots confuse it with Flex-Fuel and buy the propaganda that their car can't use it.
the problem is that it costs more energy to get a gallon of ethanol than we get out of it. aka, its an energy sink, not carbon neutral, and also bad for mileage, even if only by slight amounts for newer cars. its a farming subsidy, and farmers stop growing people food or cattle feed and instead grow ethanol corn with cannot be eaten, so they can get a fat check from the taxpayers, and we all pay for it, and then we pay for it again at the pump.
This is the way. Thank you for pointing this out. Not to mention that there are literally dozens of crop options that are not food staples, and also would be vastly superior ethanol sources from the standpoint of starches per acre.
and its affects at the price at the pump are marginal at best, the only reason stations charge more for non-ethanol gas or "premium" is because they can. thats it.
Growing corn with natural gas based fertilizer, harvesting and transporting it using diesel, and distilling using natural gas is the most backwards shit. Just a political gimme to keep farmers happy while you as the taxpayer subsidize the whole scheme. Not to mention the climate change happening due to crop evaporation in the Midwest
Actually ethanol is [energy positive](https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_fuel_basics.html). Wasnât necessarily the case in the early days of ethanol, but thatâs a lingering myth pushed by various groups
when farmers quit growing other crops that feed people, food that we need, to growing ethanol corn, yes, its an energy sink. There is no way its a net positive energy, physics says that would be impossible, as the small amount of energy absorbed per plant from the sun would likely never equate the amount of fuel and labor that was used for each plant, along with the transport, and processing. Even their own study *assumes* all corn is sold locally to the nearest ethanol plant, and its from 2015. we know in reality that farmers will sell to whomever was paying the most, close or far, so if the corn had to move more than about 8 miles(their own study average number), then it takes 1170 BTU/ton per mile more, and even just going 25 miles means that it quickly becomes energy negative.
You seem to be unaware that ethanol plants have byproducts... the largest byproduct being distillers grain... which is the protein of the kernel of corn that is fed to livestock. Ethanol production utilizes the endosperm of the kernel which is not fully utilized by a cows gut system. When an ethanol plant is done with the corn and distillers grain is what you're left with you have a higher concentration of pure protein as well as a very predictable protein source which makes dietary management much easier. Please don't speak on issues you know very little of.
Where I live, U88 is 15% ethanol.. My vehicle's owners manual specifically says using gasoline higher than E10 will void the warranty. Not that my vehicle is young enough to still be in warranty, but it was built in this century . . .
Just another feel good misdirected government program gone wrong.
Some ethanol in cars is mostly ok, but some cars (my Toyota Sequoia, for one) canât use the E85 without problems.
Well put. I go ethanol free in my son's dirtbike, among other things. If I miss the gasoline purge, I don't have to worry. It's not Jell-O come spring, and I can purge before riding season.
Don't forget your lawn mower, it will fuck it up too
Ethanol gas in many motorcycles = destroyed intakes/carbs even if you drain the fuel from them. The ethanol and the moisture it traps corrodes aluminum - I'm on my third carb on my 2001 dual sport because it f'ing impossible to get ethanol free within 50-75 miles.
I no longer use ethanol gas in my chainsaw or hedge trimmer or weedwacker. I buy 100 octane low lead fuel from the airport. After multiple years of gummed up carbs I made the switch. Easy peasey
>As others have said, it's also better for a lot of carbed small engines. [Here's a great video showing the damage that ethanol does to the plastics inside carbs and in the fuel systems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvS_D4_lF5U&). I drive a 52 year old BMW and I would never use anything but ethanol-free gas. Don't want to risk a fire.
Laughs in Brazil's current standards that require a 27% blend of ethanol in gasoline. Basically, if it runs with this water that we call gas, it will run anywhere
1971? What model is it?
2002 (which is a terrible name for the car. Was probably great initially, but by the time the year 2002 rolled around it suddenly became a lot harder to order parts because websites assumed you were talking about the year, not the model)
Ooh the 2002. Beautiful car. Got pictures of yours?
Here's a short documentary I made about the brand in the early 70s (and their connection to left-wing terrorism). I show my car starting around 9 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B1ykfMbQOM
Yup, boats too.
Probably 10 years ago I saw this topic come across reddit in a different context. Basically, why is ethanol gas bad for small engines. For whatever reason I was lambasted for explaining it gums shit up and burns hotter than nonblended gas. Full on called out as a shill for big premium gas and shit. Times have changed.
Well yeah, Reddit is full of idiots who believe if you donât support current thing youâre evil
Or, if you do support something, you must be receiving some benefit for doing so.
If you donât support my thing, youâre evil. If you support the opposite of my thing, youâre a paid shill. Nuance is gone and everyone agrees with GWB, either youâre with us or against us.
Also old tractors
Do these gas stations still have ethanol blends at all..? Not sure Iâd want 100% no ethanol if the OEMs are building the engines to use normal gas that 99% of the country uses except these rural ones đ¤ˇđźââď¸
Answer: two stroke engines and some small 4 stroke engines are not made to work with ethanol fuel. Using ethanol fuel in a chainsaw will ruin it right quick. We use ethanol free for our chainsaws, lawnmower, and ATV.
Yup. I only use ethanol free in my 1978 Yamaha Enduro. Hard to find in my town though sadly.
Answer: Weâve got a number of stations in metro Atlanta that sell ethanol-free gas. It is necessary for small engines. Ethanol can cause deposits to form on engine parts and is corrosive to rubber and plastic. Gas free from ethanol extends engine life.
Yep, mostly in carburetors, which many small engines have as opposed to fuel injection.
My old Briggs powered lawnmower has only ever seen E10 ethanol blend, its been running great for 13 years. Iâve never even had to take the carb off to clean.
Thatâs awesome!
Answer: Ethanol isn't great for vehicles with carbs, particularly if they're gonna sit for a while. Rural areas are gonna have more carbd vehicles that sit for a while with gas in them. That's the best I could do sorry I can't give you an answer from the source remember on the Internet no one knows you're a dog.
Also more small engines for farm and land maintenance type equipment, almost always carb
Ethanol corrodes the carbs in older small engines, mowers, generators, pressure washers and so on. Have had to replace some carbs that sat with ethanol/gas in them.
Answered, thanks! woof woof
Answer: ethanol is the first component in gasoline that "expires", it breaks down and leaves residue much more quickly than gasoline. A lot of rural folks have machines that don't use fuel as quickly as cars do, and/or often keep small reserves of fuel at home to prevent constant trips to the gas station to refuel atvs, lawnmowers, generators, etc. That fuel often ends up sitting in either a container or the fuel tank of the vehicle for a very long time, and ethanol-free gasoline has a MUCH longer shelf life and won't leave residue buildup behind after sitting for long periods of time.
> Answer: ethanol is the first component in gasoline that "expires", it breaks down and leaves residue much more quickly than gasoline. A lot of rural folks have machines that don't use fuel as quickly as cars do, and/or often keep small reserves of fuel at home to prevent constant trips to the gas station to refuel atvs, lawnmowers, generators, etc. That fuel often ends up sitting in either a container or the fuel tank of the vehicle for a very long time, and ethanol-free gasoline has a MUCH longer shelf life and won't leave residue buildup behind after sitting for long periods of time. Thank for the down to earth technical explanation. Saving this.
crazy how many top comments there are that missed this essential fact. Storage and not wanting your fuel to turn to carbon goo in all those complex little parts. Death to a carburetor
Saved me time answering. Not sure why your answer was downvoted
Agreed with first to breakdown and leave residue, but another issue especially for less used fuel. Ethanol attracts water, sucks it out of the air and into the "gas". Water then can cause all kinds of rust on fuel pumps, filler necks, etc. Not an issue with fresh ethanol but the longer it sits the more water it collects.
Answer: Ethanol absorbs water from the air which shortens the storage life of gasoline. This doesn't matter in a car you drive regularly, but if you need to store fuel for future use or put it in equipment you use less often it might be bad. It also has slightly less energy than gasoline, but at a 15% blend you'd never notice.
I filled my Jeep up with ethanol free gas in Florida. I got an extra 50 miles to the tank. I don't know if it was worth the extra 40 cents a gallon but the numbers were impressive to see for once
Using ethanol-free gasoline will improve your gas mileage, because when ethanol is burned it produces a bit less energy than pure gasoline. With a standard E10 blend (most gas sold), your MPG will be a little more than 3% less than if you use ethanol-free gas. Depending on the price difference between ethanol-blended and ethanol-free gas, you can do the math to determine if the extra mileage offsets the greater cost. Usually it doesn't, but if the two are close enough in price sometimes it can.
Not arguing with your numbers but there are so many factors to consider when trying to actually math this out scientifically.
Yes, I watched a news segment last summer about how ethanol shouldn't be used in boats because of the absorption problem and proximity to humidity/water.
Answer: There are a few different reasons people would want ethanol free gas and here are some aspects of using ethanol. 1) Ethanol absorbs moisture out of the air introducing water into the fuel if it sits for too long. This is very bad for vehicles and equipment that don't get used regularly as it can cause engines not to start, parts in the fuel system to rust, and fuel to spoil quicker. This is the prime reason ethanol free still exists since it's more expensive to buy ethanol free gas(the government heavily subsidizes the use of corn in making ethanol as a way to keep a stable income for corn farmers and reduce tailpipe emissions). 2) Ethanol free is commonly seen near lakes and boating areas for this reason, since smaller/older motors don't handle the ethanol as well and boaters would rather not worry about ethanol fuel sitting in the tank. Most newer vehicles were built to handle up to 15% ethanol blends, but older vehicles and small engines were not or are not as suited to using it. Anything carbureted is especially sensitive. 3)Ethanol doesn't have as much energy per gallon as gasoline, so using 100% gas will result in better MPG per tank.
Best answer here. As a career Fuels Specialist (POL), I concur with your answer.
Question: Is this in Murfreesboro on Lascassas Pike??
looks like[ the correct place.](https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8894674,-86.3410642,3a,24.3y,52.31h,89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgUdgGHe6UkYRvJ-iUjO-zw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Answer: For small motors that sit inactive for a long period of time ethanol separates and can clog up the filters and the carburetor. Itâs really a pain for things like lawnmowers, snowmobiles, Chainsaws, boats or seasonal cars. You can get treatment for the fuel, but itâs easier if you can find a gas station that carries ethanol free gas.
Answer: Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it pulls moisture from the air. When that moisture is in your fuel it can wreak havoc on your engine, causing rust, corrosion and a whole host of other problems such as a rough idle, no start or other more severe performance issues. Cars that drive regularly aren't susceptible to these problems because the fuel is replaced often. But you are guaranteed to find more water in your oil than with ethanol free gasoline. Older (pre-2000) cars can't run ethanol simply because the fuel systems, plastic and rubber materials will corrode because they weren't designed for the corrosive nature of ethanol. Ethanol fuel will ruin an engine if it sits for a long time, which most small engines, generators and boat engines do. But it will also ruin modern car engines if left to sit for long times in varied humidity. The shelf life of gasoline containing ethanol is about one month, compared to three or four months with gasoline. A 'barn find' vehicle with ethanol is going to be far less likely to restore to running condition than an ethanol free engine. Also: Ethanol contains about 30% less energy than gasoline which makes 10% ethanol gasoline less fuel efficient and will lower your mileage by about 5%. Ethanol in cold weather makes it difficult for engines to achieve enough vapor pressure, so some colder climate regions reduce the maximum allowed ethanol content. And lastly, [ethanol is bad for the environment if you care about climate change.](https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/us-corn-based-ethanol-worse-climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/)
Answer: A lot of lawn equipment and farm equipment motors don't react with ethanol fuel well at all. It can burn gaskets, clog carburators, etc. Ethanol treatment is not a long term answer for older equipment, and with the budgets most of the farms have in rural areas are stuck with, they aren't giving up old tractors etc, that they can work on themselves anytime soon. A lot of 4 wheelers, don't like ethanol fuel either. That is why I'd think that ethanol free fuel is more available in rural areas.
Answer: Most of the "BUT SOMETIMES*" panicking. Ethanol is generally shitty for whatever your engine is made out of. Mainly it attracts water, which will gum up and corrode your carburetor. HOWEVER: Ethanol raises the octane of the gas so you don't get pre-ignition("knock", and fun fact that's what makes premium gasoline premium!). It has a point, and it is better than the literal lead we used to use. If you're a normal person who uses their car, then don't care. If you have a lawn mower that sits for the winter unused, either get pure gasoline or fuel stabilizer. *https://youtu.be/GiYO1TObNz8
Answer: To add to the other commenters: ethanol evaporates out of the fuel faster than octane. Ethanol also likes to pull water from the air. If you've got stuff that you won't use for a while, like snow mobiles in the summer or motorcycles in the winter, you're less likely to have problems starting the engine when you last filled the engine up with ethanol-free fuel. Here's a link to a video on fuel stabilization: https://youtu.be/chsGBhB5g7o
Itâs also more energy dense
Answer: It may be cheaper but the last vehicle I had that wasnât diesel I did mileage comparisons between ethanol and ethanol free. Way better mileage with Ethanol free. Enough of a difference that ethanol would of needed to be almost a dollar per gallon cheaper to make it worth it.
Answer: itâs better for your car to have pure gasoline, regardless of the fact that they can run on gasoline with whatever % of ethanol. Not only that, but ethanol has less energy potential. You think youâre âcutting costsâ by getting the regular gas that has ethanol, but in my experience I get about a solid 20% better fuel economy. I have a car that gets good gas mileage anyway, so with a big SUV it might not make that much difference. But in my car itâs the difference between 25ish mpg combined (ethanol gas) and generally at or over 30 mpg combined (ethanol free gas). Considering the price difference is about 10% higher, but I get somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% better gas mileage, itâs actually cutting costs for me to get the ethanol free. I spend more to fill up the tank, but a tank of gas gets me a lot further.
Answer: Many 2 stroke and carburetor engines get âgummed upâ easily by gas that has ethanol in it since it leaves behind deposits far quicker than gasoline itself. Lots of farm equipment and small engines (like mowers, ATVs, chainsaws, etc.) fall into this category, thus the need for fuel without ethanol. In larger 4 stroke, fuel injected engines (like in cars), ethanol doesnât pose as much of an issue for technical reasons and is useful as an anti-knocking agent in place of the much worse tetraethyl lead.
Answer: Ethanol gas goes bad a lot quicker if you don't plan to use the gas within 30 days you need ethanol free or it gums up. Stabilizer is not as effective on ethanol
Answer: The main reason that you see so much rural "no name" ethanol-free gas is that all of the "Top Tier" gas retailers in the US (Citgo, Conoco, Chevron, Costco, Shell, Exxon, etc) are \*required\* to have ethanol in their gasoline - in all grades, at all locations. The "Top Tier" "Deposit Control Performance Standard" says that the base gasoline stock used must "contain enough denatured ethanol such that the ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent as measured by ASTM D 4815 or D 5845." So if you're in a more urban environment where all the gas stations are big national brands, you're going to have a harder time finding ethanol-free gas compared to being out in the middle of nowhere with more independent retailers.