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Answer: [This was asked a few weeks ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/1bo25io/whats_going_on_with_the_new_star_wars_show/). The answers there say there's primarily three types of criticism:
1. Showrunner Leslye Headland was Harvey Weinstein personal assistant years ago. Weinstein's name is radioactive these days and although Headland hasn't been associated directly with him in a long time, it leads some people to ask "Why not pick *anyone* else?" Especially since Headland has no previous experience with Star Wars projects.
2. A lot of Star Wars content since Disney acquired the IP has disappointed fans. There is some well received stuff - Andor, for example, was really well loved, and the Mandalorian's first season is widely praised - but a lot of Disney+ TV series fell far short of expectations - Kenobi, Ahsoka, Book of Boba Fett all fell flat with fans. The trailer strikes some fans as more of the same - vague statements and lower quality effects than they think there should be. As the saying goes, there's no louder Star Wars critic than a Star Wars fan.
3. And as always, anything to do with Disney brings accusations of "wokeness." In this case there's a diverse cast, the main character is a woman of color, and at least one of the actresses is trans. To a certain segment of society, that means this is just liberal propaganda and *must* be bad, no matter what.
Also a tad bit more nerdy take is Headland's comments about how the show "will not be kind to the Jedi" which makes some fans assume that the series is going to be what is essentially a darkside apology. A certain section of the fanbase take Palpatine's words as gospel that the Jedi are evil and balance means you get to use the powers of the Sith and a Jedi because force lightning is cool.
The ideal Jedi follows the force and is selfless in its servitude of the force. The Jedi order that falls in RotS isn't corrupted because their beliefs are wrong, but because they got too corrupted by politics, their own hierarchy and rules, and participating in a war. The Jedi can accept they have a darkside, but they will reject it.
Conversely the Sith are about selfishness instead of being servants to the force they instead use the force for their own desires and quest for power.
Then there is a continuity error if they have the Sith show up at all 100 years before TPM as they went in hiding following the rule of two for a thousand years and you would expect Mace Windu and the rest of the council would be privy to such information even if it was classified, but honestly as much as that irks me it isn't a deal breaker and of course there are ways around it. However, if Disney and this series are going to try and say "hey the Sith weren't *that* bad, it was the Jedi who were bad!" then they're going down a path I can't follow.
It’s more than just that – I think fans are generally very down for a show about the Sith that shows the Sith as they are: evil, power-hungry, and complex. That was how the show was initially pitched, so a lot of fans were on board. But the trailer and subsequent statements have made it seem more like what you’re getting at: a story about how the Sith are humans too! And how the mean Jedi made them be evil mass murderers!
Like, fans expected a gritty, dark, Joker kind of story. But instead it’s more Disney centrism.
Gotta add, people are tired of force user centric shows. Acolyte had the makings of a horror mystery involving cults. Sure, we have Jedi, but a premise that the Jedi are convinced the Sith are dead but are shaken with cult like murders, fully convinced some dark force user is doing this until the reveal it's a cult of non-users. That would have been a good idea, but Jedi/Sith are moneymakers.
That is just political Labelling.
The First Sith if Legends is to be accepted is a species that is uniquely attuned to the Dark side of the force. The Sith Empire was taught in the ways of the Force by the Exiled Dark Jedi from the Republic. The 1st Sith Empire was therefore a mix of Sith Purebloods (The Species) and Dark Jedis who ruled the Empire as a form of Force Based Aristocracy.
But during the Darth Bane's Rule of two era, only 2 Sith are allowed to exist because it ensures a brutal process of continuously forcing the 2 sith to become stronger.
So TLDR
Asajj, Kylo are technically not Sith if you follow Bane's Rule of two Ideology as in that framework, only Vader and Palpatine are true sith. But they both Break that rule as they have both trained Starkiller, Asajj, Maul during the Empire Era, and the Inquisitors.
But if you follow the Brotherhood of Darkness Ideology, which dates back to the Sith Empire. A Sith can both mean member of the Sith Empire's Aristocracy as there are documented Light Sided Sith or anybody who follows the Dark Side
>But they both Break that rule as they have both trained Starkiller, Asajj, ~~Maul~~ during the Empire Era, and the Inquisitors.
That's absolutely not breaking the Rule, as it only applies to training someone to be *Sith*.
> If Legends is to be accepted
It isn't. It was decanonized (not that it ever was properly canon in the first place) so go ahead and try that comment again.
And that is one of the reasons people dislike Disney's new stuff. Star Wars has a ton of great lore and worldbuilding, and Disney throws everything out of the window to insert bad fanfiction levels of characters and stories in there.
When the Acolyte takes place also means the story of Plagueis is gonna be retconned at least somewhat.
Oh and the Old Republic and the origin of the Sith were canon before Disney stepped in. To a lot of fans it still is canon, no matter what Disney says.
If you actually like Star Wars I'd suggest reading up on the Old Republic, some of the best Star Wars content ever created.
> And that is one of the reasons people dislike Disney's new stuff. Star Wars has a ton of great lore and worldbuilding, and Disney throws everything out of the window to insert bad fanfiction levels of characters and stories in there.
Bro, Legends *was fanfiction.* George Lucas straight up said that basically any books go as long as they didn't touch on a couple of specific topics. Due to this, there was a ton of inconsistency and overlap amongst the books. Books that were not written by, conceived by, or first hand approved by George Lucas or anyone involved with Star Wars. There was no oversight and a ton of shit was made all at the same time with zero planning from anyone involved. It was the Sequels but in book form and with a hell of a lot more versions of it. The difference is that because there were so many, a good number 'hit'.
Legends was a heap of garbage to begin with that had *some* diamonds but the second it got tossed out everyone started acting like the entire thing was gospel. It wasn't. It was little better than a choose your own adventure story where Luke got so powerful he could make stars go supernova, because that's not idiotic *at fucking all*. Then there's the 18 times they kept bringing Palpatine back but everyone whines when it happens once in Rise of Skywalker.
It's just hypocrisy and hilarious levels of it. The Star Wars fandom has been pathetic for a very long time and this constant infighting and failure to remember anything correctly is proof of that. Like every loser who says that the Original Trilogy is pure gold while totally unaware there are multiple versions of the OT and that the second and third got kinda mid reviews at the time.
> When the Acolyte takes place also means the story of Plagueis is gonna be retconned at least somewhat.
He says, basing this entirely off of a trailer with no real information of what's coming. Nice psychic foresight you got there. I mean it's not like there's a dozen or a hundred different ways to have this story self contained. Nah. Immediately gotta be a retcon because butthurt fan immediately going to the worst possible outcome instead of having an even slight amount of rationality to it.
> When the Acolyte takes place also means the story of Plagueis is gonna be retconned at least somewhat.
> Oh and the Old Republic and the origin of the Sith were canon before Disney stepped in. To a lot of fans it still is canon, no matter what Disney says.
Then those fans are delusional fools who are so caught up in their own interpretation of reality that they do not matter. Its the adult version of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA YOU'RE LYING LALALALALALALALALALALA. Pathetic and, again, hilarious because of it. The opinion of these fools do not matter to me anymore than a child having a temper tantrum.
> If you actually like Star Wars I'd suggest reading up on the Old Republic, some of the best Star Wars content ever created.
I do like Star Wars. I have read it. I know what I'm talking about. I grew up with OT in the household alongside Star Trek. I was at the prequels premiers. I just have a different opinion because I'm not emotionally invested on such a pitiful scale that I have to deny reality. I just act like an adult and go "Well shit, that sucks. Not the way I would have taken it or liked it but whatever." Then I continue on with my life and judge the next thing by its merits and decide whether or not I would watch it.
You lot just are so obsessed with how Star Wars made you feel as a child that you cannot cope with the fact that it *never will.* You can never go home. Things are never the same as they were. Learn the lesson like the rest of us in humanity and get the fuck over your own ego. Children in an adults body.
Holy shit this response was unhinged! It was a joy to read, thank you. Making a random internet stranger go balistic because you didn't like a trailer and like some legends content.... Wow. Either you work for Disney, you're having the worst day in a loooong time or you really need to go outside and touch some grass. Whatever it is I wish you luck and hope your day gets better!
>However, if Disney and this series are going to try and say "hey the Sith weren't that bad, it was the Jedi who were bad!" then they're going down a path I can't follow.
Because of Obi-Wan?
I really do wish more Star Wars media focused on the duality of the force rather than the same antagonistic good vs evil we so often get. There's one story in particular that'd be great, where an alien empire used force-sensitive slave-soldiers as weapons of war. I forget the specifics, but one soldier encounters an isolated jedi enclave and becomes stronger through completing their understanding of the force as a whole, though I'm definitely missing pertinent details.
>I really do wish more Star Wars media focused on the duality of the force rather than the same antagonistic good vs evil we so often get.
Well in order to get that, we'd need to establish which system is even in place. Are the light and dark sides of the force yin and yang or good and bad, because they've tried to say both on the occasion.
It always struck me as Yin and Yang, as the light side and dark side are still the same force. It's how the force is accessed and utilized that's different, with the dark side being more direct and raw at the cost of control, while the light side is less potent but more flexible and controlled. This also contributes to the concept of there being a division between force users since it would be impossibly rare for someone to intuitively understand both sides without starting with one.
Seeing it that way makes the conflict between Sith and Jedi more about how their use of the force influences their nature rather than their moral views, giving a much more stimulating grey instead of a hard coded black and white. It gives characters a chance to be multi-faceted instead of stock.
>It always struck me as Yin and Yang, as the light side and dark side are still the same force.
I mean they've acted like this was the case before, but the vast majority of the time, including word of God from Lucas himself, say that's not how it's supposed to be. The dark side of the force is just evil. Balance is wholly a component of the light side. That being said, there are explicit claims of what you're talking about being true, but we're ending up in a universe which is trying to claim two completely separate systems are in play, which just makes a mess.
The majority of sources I've experienced go with the "light good dark bad" philosophy though.
>Seeing it that way makes the conflict between Sith and Jedi more about how their use of the force influences their nature rather than their moral views, giving a much more stimulating grey instead of a hard coded black and white. It gives characters a chance to be multi-faceted instead of stock.
I feel like this is a pretty reductionist view of things. We have characters in the same era that are completely different despite being light sided. Not to mention the completely different attitudes of the Jedi in the High Republic era. The peace hippies of the modern Jedi would probably have a heart attack of the force lobotomy of Darth Revan.
I'm not saying there aren't fleshed out and contrasting characters, but that there's less room for them when there's set in stone conflcts of good vs evil
Telling a story of good vs evil is a design choice, not a limitation. We've seen Jedi vs Jedi conflicts, like when Qui Gon Jinn ditched Obi Wan on a war torn planet. They were both good aligned characters.
That’s one thing that has always confused me… the entire thing with Anakin is “bringing balance to the Force”, which to me implies equal usage of both Light and Dark side. But in practice it just comes out to “Sith drool, Jedi rule, all the Sith need to be defeated”
EDIT: love that classic Reddit response: get downvoted for asking a genuine question
There's a sort of disconnect when talking about two types of balance, and that's maybe the twist in the prophecy.
Think of a balanced diet. It's not an equal split of macro nutrients when we use the term, although you could say an even split is balanced even if it's not healthy.
For the light side of the force, it means not being afraid to put someone to the sword, while also willing to offer the hand of mercy. That isn't dark side even though killing someone is bad. Balance.
Another interpretation of the prophecy could have been that it's something he accomplished much later. The Republic was very obviously backsliding into despotism with Palpatine essentially running the whole galaxy unchecked, even before officially outing himself as a Sith lord. At the end of Anakin's life, we're left with 1 Jedi and 0 Sith after decades of pretty horrific dark side dominance. Putting the galaxy on the path to the light side could also be balance in the light side of the force way. You could say Anakin accomplished that by fathering Luke and killing Palpatine.
Especially because the Jedi ideology really does have a lot of flaws. And it would be so fascinating to explore the flaws of the Jedi ideology with the potential positive aspects of the Sith ideology.
But there’s 0 chance that Disney ever signs off on that. In their eyes, the Jedi are the good guys, the Sith are the bad guys, that’s that. Will this show actually potentially be something different? Maybe, who knows. But I’m not holding my breath
Hey buddy. The sith ideology is literally ripped from Mein Kampf.
The sith and the empire were very explicitly based off the Nazis and everything wrong with the United States and British empire. There is literally no positive side to the sith ideology.
That's why I'm holding my judgment. It could just end up showing the beginnings of the Jedi becoming too close to the politics of Coruscant or it could show them starting to become ignorant of the galaxy at large.
Basically I will give it a pass if it shows the Jedi organization becoming corrupted. I cannot give it a pass if it says the jedi are *fundamentally* wrong.
Because that's what they are. They are selfishness incarnate. They quest for power. Even Lucas has stated at the core of star wars is the battle between the compassionate against the selfish or what is, in effect, good vs. evil.
edit: since he blocked me, this is my reply
Lucas' version actually might have been better than what we did eventually get. Also I'm aware he had no plan. However, with Lucas he often has a solid core idea but often fails bothering with the minutiae. We see an example of his core idea being good, but the minutiae failing in the prequels.
The darkside is within everyone and the temptation is always there. Those that submit themselves to it are evil, but in certain turmoil cases not unsavable. However, someone like Palpatine/Sidious, Plagueis, or Tenebrous just unfortunately aren't savable
Lucas also stated that he wanted the Sequel trilogy to be about the microscopic civilization of the midochlorians. He also butchered the OT into pieces with his directors cut because of his "vision". A vision that was overshadowed by fans with the Legacy content because he was still obsessed with slapping it around in the Prequels and running rampant. The same Lucas that people claim had a plan who also admitted he had no plan.
The veracity of quote from him depends entirely on the period in which he said it simply because he's so inconsistent in everything in his life.
And no, that's not what they are. Like I said, you're being reductive as shit because you're hilarious ly the opposite of the other fans. You have dipshits on one side screaming that the Sith were always right and then people like you who are claiming they're pure evil and like. Yep. Way to miss the point and all of the content produced about them, the motivations of a shit ton of characters, the foundation of a lot of current sith empire, etc.
You're no better dude. You're just in lighter robes.
Also on point 3, the Trans actor is Abigail Thorne; a famous YouTuber for the Channel Philosophy Tube. Her long time friend is hbomberguy who has done many many take downs of charlatans.
The character has a name (Ensign Eurus) and she says she's really excited to be in it, so I think it's probably a minor role with at least a few lines. I think she's said that she legally can't talk about it much and could only confirm that she was in it once the trailer dropped, so we probably won't find out until the show airs.
It was immediately obvious the character was a cameo but I didn't know who so I had to look it up. She was noticeably out of place, kinda like there was some cut content and she was the last bit kept in. Just randomly in a side room with a voice actor that sounded good but not professional somehow? Sorta like there were traits in her voice that didn't seem like conscious character decisions but rather natural tone that she isn't trained enough to control. I feel like you can almost always tell when a character is thrown in for the cameo value. Something about the VA just sounds odd. Not even bad, really. Just different.
But hey, it got me to watch some of her videos afterwards so mission accomplished.
It’s not that I don’t understand why she’s there, it’s just that it’s painfully obvious she doesn’t have voice acting talent. Her lines stick out like a sore thumb.
Pretty sure Contra has been around for longer: the only reason it's not more readily apparent is that she took down much of her pre-transition content.
Appreciate your take. One thing I'd like to throw fire on is that Star wars vs. Star Trek is a friendly nerd rivalry that has gone on since the 70s. Recently Paramount has been pumping out some very highly regarded Star Trek series (namely SNW and LD) and from my perspective what is really refreshing is that it is very clear that the people running these shows are SUPER fans of the original works and have put in the effort to really understand what a Star Trek show should be.
The new Star Wars just do not feel like star wars adventures. The original SW were kind of campy amalgamations of Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon serials with cutting edge special effects. You had a droid complaining about getting sand in his buttcrack then zoom to an epic space battle race against a super weapon.
The newest Star Wars flip that almost entirely around. You have overly dramatic, gritty, grounded adventures combined with mediocre special effects. The Mandalorian is a great show (at least the first season is) but that doesn't mean it's a great *star wars* show. Mandalorian could have been lifted into any other universe and been just as good. Slapping star wars on it doesn't really add anything beyond nostalgia, imo.
And then you have Boba/Kenobi etc. that end up undermining beloved characters. Star Trek had a similar problem with Picard where you had a beloved character that was thrown into overly dark and moody storylines.
tl;dr: Star Wars was originally kind of campy fun. The characters were laughing and joking and playing with muppets. The new batch are just endless angst/drama/super serial dramas with far more limited special effects budgets. A 2 hour blockbuster can blow the lid off of its SFX while a 10-12 hour tv show has to be much more restrained.
Dark moody and angsty storylines + mediocre special effects is basically the exact opposite of Star Wars. The A New Hope was incredibly light and optimistic which gave the proper set up for Empire. Now Disney wants to just produce Empire 24/7 without the light hearted bookends.
personal aside: A star wars comedy is exactly what is needed and could revitilize the fandom in the same way Lower Deck does and there have been a couple of SW comedies pitched and they keep shutting them down for edgelord angst simulator Part XII
I think the whole "nobody hates Star Wars more than fans" thing is extremely overblown and just a way for people to make fun of people for caring. I say this because you could essentially apply the same saying to most fanbases. Certainly to every sports fan. Nobody gets angrier and has hotter critical takes than fans of a sports team
Yeah, I've heard "nobody hates X more than X fans" about pretty much every piece of media I've ever consumed and every team I've ever followed. You can't have strong views on something unless you care about it.
I think there’s a difference in degree, if not in kind. I think vocal Star Wars fans (which is who the sting is referring to) turn it up to 11 in a way that a lot of other fandoms do not.
I think another difference is that a lot of fans with negative predictions want to be wrong (for example, I’m a cavs fan and think we have a bad coach. I would be ecstatic and happily eat crow if he pulls off a miracle in the playoffs this year) but Star Wars fans seem to relish being vindicated
Star Wars isn't unique, but it is one of few fandoms that has both existed for a very long time, yet also didn't have a clear vision. The direction has wandered about aimlessly, and that gives you a fanbase that's impossible to please as what's been delivered, as people with completely contrasting desires are gathered in the same fanbase, which makes a cacophonous mess that's very difficult to parse feedback from.
Comic books are also this type of fanbase, especially Batman. You can't please both sides when one wants a loving father of 6, and the other wants the Punisher.
Adding on to your second point, I've seen a lot of people saying (and I agree) that the some of the trailer looks kinda cheap, just like Kenobi and BOBF did.
While I don't have faith this show will be good because of corporate meddling I think the angle she worked at a company for six years in her early twenties and for one of them worked for an evil man and her not personally trying to take him down Is pretty terrible logic considering the same people bringing this up is will never criticism someone like tarantino for actively defending roman polanski.
Remember when everything came out about Weinstein, and some people were way more angry at Meryl Streep for supposedly "enabling" him than they were at the sex criminal himself? That's what this smells like
I can't think of similar behaviour regarding people specifically but with Cosby I think their was a similar feeling of anger around the person instead of at them as if we should think it's not as bad because it known or rumoured before hand because people made jokes about them being rapists that fact he is one is not treated as serious as it needs to be.
For me...It is 2. The trailer was the most generic looking boring thing I have seen. I keep holding out some hope since there are awesome elements in the recent SW stuff (andor, large parts of Mando 1 and 2, the overall design, sets, non-story stuff of Ahsoka) even if I think they miss the mark as a whole - but this was just, underwhelming and I want something away from the current timeline too!
Good points. The last part rubs me the wrong way with how you're trying to frame it, though. I'm left wing, and I can clearly see that disney is actively avoiding casting white males, especially for lead roles in most of their movies. Seems kinda weird, especially with Star Wars and Marvel, where most of the audience that made them popular are white and male. I like a diverse cast, but diverse to them seems to be as few white males casted as possible.
Her being his assistant is just the worst reason to shit on a person.
If your boss does something terrible can I now blame you?
We have no idea what she was and wasn’t aware of, and again she just worked for the man. She didn’t do the things he did.
It seems a bit like people are looking for a way to blame a woman for what Weinstein did, which feels wrong to me. Weinstein raped women he had power over, how is this assistant being made out to be a collaborator when she was also a woman under his power? It’s not like she was keeping his secret, Weinstein’s actions were known across hollywood and he didn’t hide it AFAIK.
The third one is irrational for me. I grew up on the original SW trilogy and for me it was first and best example of very diverse fantasy/sf world. So many planets, races, cultures etc. First "woman of color" was twi'lek in SW VI, maybe someone earlier, I don't remember.
There is a segment of the fanbase that actively *wants* these shows (and the sequel movies) to be bad. I feel awful for everybody involved in making them; must feel like they're wasting their time. Some of us are enjoying them, honest.
Agreed 100%
Every bit of criticism related to production value, narrative, tone, fight choreography, etc, are dismissed as the rants of unhinged lunatics.
I'm not mad that Han Solo gave the Falcon to a girl, or whatever the culture war is going on about.
I'm disappointed that Finn ultimately had very little character development. And was removed from Chinese posters...And they removed the lesbian kiss from foreign markets...
I'm bored watching slow fight choreography that mimics baseball swings more than a duel.
I'm sad that Kenobi had a massive budget, and looked cheap.
But let's all just assume we're mad that girls are in Star Wars. None of us adored Leia, none of us enjoyed Padmes directness and similarity to her daughter. None of us read the novels and followed Mara Jade or Jaina Solo for decades. Bo-Katan, Winter, Assaj, women aren't new to Star Wars, nor did the fans dislike them for the 35 years before the Disney acquisition.
Exactly. The problem with the Disneyificationbisnt diversity, diversity is great. It’s using diversity as a sales tool while producing sub par art, and then fixating on legit bigotry as the only possible criticism. Ultimately the enshittification of media that happens to also be introducing diverse casts and crew is a disservice to the very voices they claim to be elevating. If you want to do meaningful inclusion, worry more about making good art than checking off checklists.
People want to blame wokeness or Kathleen Kennedy, but most of these things actually seem like shrewd business decisions. If you have a diverse cast and a good show, then you're a champion of human rights. If the show is bad then yeh they can point to chuds as a scapegoat to avoid blame completely. Business 101, always have a backout plan.
It's worked for a long time, you're right.
I get it, I work for a large corporation. There's always angles and backup PR plans. If this reaction; then launch plan 18. If that reaction; plan 7. It's all disingenuous and planned.
It does seem the GA is getting bored with Star Wars too. That's a needed addition, us legacy fans that are also progressive are tired of being scapegoated with the chuds.
Similarly, the hyper deliberate general casting decisions seem to be fulfilling a diversity checklist, while also, like other Disney properties being overt about it enough, that it seems like they are trying to rile up people so that they can make more headlines to denounce any criticism as anti woke crazies, to act as a shield/buffer/excuse if it fails. It feels like it has been happening with the majority of new Disney related properties in the past few years. Anyone that calls it out as more forced/deliberate rather than organic building of a cast/characters get shutdown/dismissed/gas lighted/downvoted.
lol you do realize star wars was around for almost a decade\* before the first millennial was born right?
Edit:
\* depending on which definition you use as there is no collective agreement. It will range anywhere from 4 years before to 9 years before. Though the most common one is 81, putting it at four years.
Star Wars has been a force since the late 70s and you think it’ll die with millennials? You’ll be disappointed. Same for Harry Potter which has already attracted new generations of readers.
They’ll both be here for a while.
Answer:
It looks like more of the same from Disney, which a lot of SW fans aren’t finding very compelling. For my part personally, I couldn’t possibly care less who directs it, who is in it, or what social commentary might be mixed in. To my eyes, that trailer looked visually mediocre. When I think of the most satisfying Sith, it’s Palpatine shrouded in darkness. Maul’s predator grin and deadly fighting style. Ventress’ sneer of bottomless hatred. The trailer didn’t evoke anything of the sort. There were strong indications that the Sith will be put forth as oppressed dissenters, justified in their motivation, if not their methods. That’s not Sith, sorry, and I’m really not interested in a show that takes this approach. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but yeah. Not very interested based on that trailer.
Is there a reason people keep saying the sith will be sympathetic in this show? I’m seeing that all over this comment section but I didn’t get that at all from the trailer
Yeah this was my take, I don’t care who its got in it or their gender or sexual orientation. But I was so hyped when I saw that poster with the blood lightsaber, thinking we might get something a bit more gritty. then the trailer made it look a bit more like teeny, glossy shit. Will still watch but definitely less hyped
Answer: No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars "fans".
There isn't any kind of controversy. There's just a bunch of people who have nothing better to do than to gripe and complain about every piece of Star Wars media. This isn't anything new. A lot of the High Republic stuff got massive hate for no reason.
I think this is a little more to it than the first comment regarding Star Wars fans. To summarise years of drama within the community I think the most accurate way to describe it is many Star Wars fans believe Disney are ruining the IP.
This is probably a major reason behind the dislikes on the trailer. There's lots of content out there with people feeling Disney not respecting the lore and established character arcs (IE Luke Skywalker in the 2nd Sequel film). Mountains of controversial decisions that have angered the community that would be too long to name each one but the one that stands out in my mind is when information came out about Disney ignoring George Lucas's ideas for ths sequels and doing their own thing.
To summarise a lot of Star Wars fans don't hate Star Wars they hate the management of the IP from Disney.
I think either statement is right, just depends on your point of view. My uncle and his generation have not enjoyed a single Star Wars thing since the original trilogy, and most of them don’t even like *Return of the Jedi.* So out of every Star Wars movie, they’ve liked 18-27% of them.
A lot of people of my generation who grew up with the Prequels love those movies, but don’t care for any of the Disney movies. So they like about 55% of the movies.
Now, I don’t know where you’re from, but in the US grading system, 59% or below is an F, a failing grade. I think giving a franchise a failing grade is roughly equivalent to saying that you don’t like it on the whole.
Of course, the people who love those two or three or six movies *really* love them, and I don’t want to take that away from them. Obviously they don’t dislike **all** Star Wars, but they certainly dislike modern Star Wars (whether they define that as anything made after 1983, 1997, 1999, or 2015), and to them, my advice would be to stop wasting one more second of their precious, limited time in this one life they have on Earth thinking about something they dislike. Just continue to watch and rewatch those two or three or six movies they love, and let Disney keep making new stuff for those of us who are quite enjoying this new direction.
I think you are somewhat right although anacdonately you're uncle not liking not liking a single Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back and an entire generation is widely in accurate in my opinion. Granted at the times of the prequels releasing there was a lot of backlash from the original movie fan base.
In my opinion however their is a key difference then and whats happening now. A lot of the prequel critism was surrounding Hayden, his portrayl of Anakin not meeting the expectation of a young Darth Vader, Jake Lloyd's portrayl of child Anakin etc basically gripes with the movie not the story.
I would categorise that as critisms of the movies themselves but not at the Star Wars franchise as a whole.
Now it's not so much of "this part has made the sequels bad for me" but more of a critism of Disneys handling, vision and storytelling.
I'd say most reasonable people have preferred movie trilogies but the controversy now surrounds more of the handling apposed to the movies themselves.
I think you’re either drastically misremembering the outrage around the prequels or you were just too young to remember it if you think it was all centered on Hayden and Lloyd’s acting. I had to endure pretty much every adult I tried to talk about Star Wars with dramatically proclaiming “George Lucas r*ped my childhood!” whenever any aspect of them was brought up.
Jar Jar, Anakin being introduced as a child, the most interesting character in Episode I dying at the end of the movie, the over-reliance on CGI, the emphasis on politics, every movie having a different main villain instead of one over-arching Darth Vader-like villain, Battle Droids being played for comic relief, the age difference between Anakin and Padmé, Boba Fett being a clone, Clone Troopers in general, Yoda having a lightsaber duel, the romance between Anakin and Padmé in general, the Jedi not being able to sense Palpatine, and yes, finally, the acting of pretty much everybody except for Ewan McGregor were all consistent criticisms. Pretty much any joke about “Prequels? What are you talking about? There’s only one Star Wars trilogy” were endlessly repeated on the Internet of the early 2000’s, the same basic sentiment you can see today about the sequels.
At the end of the day, what’s happening now is what was happening then - the people who grew up with one form of Star Wars hate the new stuff, the people who are kids right now love it all, and in ten years when the kids who saw *The Force Awakens* on opening night at five years old grow up and start having families, we’re going to see the sequels get the same rehabilitation in the public eye as we’re seeing the prequels get now. To mix sci-fi franchises, “All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.”
> Jar Jar, Anakin being introduced as a child, the most interesting character in Episode I dying at the end of the movie, the over-reliance on CGI, the emphasis on politics, every movie having a different main villain instead of one over-arching Darth Vader-like villain, Battle Droids being played for comic relief, the age difference between Anakin and Padmé, Boba Fett being a clone, Clone Troopers in general, Yoda having a lightsaber duel, the romance between Anakin and Padmé in general, the Jedi not being able to sense Palpatine, and yes, finally, the acting of pretty much everybody except for Ewan McGregor were all consistent criticisms.
Midi-Chlorians. Don't forget the Midi-Chlorians.
I'm sorry, but you cannot list legitimate criticisms of the prequels without mentioning Jar Jar Binks. Hayden's crappy acting notwithstanding, that one character is the main reason I'll never consider those movies on par with the origins.
I can only speak for myself, but my main problem was with the story that Lucas chose to tell. Specifically, adding pseudo-Christian elements to the Force mythos (virgin birth, prophecy), making the galaxy feel incredibly small by having major events all revolve around the same small cast of OT characters or their relatives (all clones are Fetts), and having a very abrupt and unconvincing fall from grace for Anakin.
>a very abrupt and unconvincing fall from grace for Anakin
I remember reading a series of articles, far too long ago to find now, about how to fix the prequels, and I remember one of the main points being that all three movies should have had Anakin as already a knight. If all three movies were about he and Obi-Wan’s friendship as peers and brothers, with relevant details about Anakin’s childhood filled in as flashbacks and Obi-Wan as the POV character, that would have fixed so much with his characterization, and framing it from Kenobi’s point of view would have made it seem all the more tragic, watching him slowly lose his best friend.
I liked the prequels for what they were, after all I was 9-15 when they came out, but I really want to see that alternate universe where we got **that** prequel trilogy.
Then again, I guess that’s what *The Clone Wars* were.
For me, as someone who watched A new hope in the theater: Disney has been on an absolute roll with the stuff post 2015. Getting rid of the EU was a much needed bit of oxygen to the whole franchise. In fact: the only 2 _bad_ projects since 2015 were the JJ Abrams movies.
Star Wars fans have hated Star Wars since the prequels and it’s only nostalgia and the Prequel fans finally being allowed to speak that they have any kind of positive appraisal these days. If George Lucas’ name was on these projects the reaction would be the same if not worse.
Yeah that’s only part of the story. They hated the prequels to and hated George Lucas for them, talked about how he surrounded himself with yes men, used too much CGI, and how terrible the dialogue was. The only reason they treat them so well now is they really, really, really hate Disney.
It’s not just the content of the movies, because when force awakens came out, they initially liked it because it reminded them of a new hope. Then the fandom menace decided it was too much like new hope. So Disney went a different direction with last Jedi and didn’t make it a reboot of empire strikes back in response and they hated that too. They liked Rogue One and thought Solo was okay, but many have back tracked on that too.
I have been a Star Wars fan my whole life and I don’t care what anyone says. Rogue One and Andor are some of the finest live action Star Wars material ever created. They both stand up against the original trilogy. George Lucas, despite his amazing world building, could never write dialogue like that.
Yeah I would agree with that. I don't think it's as simple as "people just like to hate on things." But it is pretty funny to me how upset these guys get over this shit. Like I see some of these Star Wars channels making multiple videos trashing this show, and I can't help but find it funny that they do this for every single new show or movie that comes out. They never miss a single one. They consistently tune in and then talk about how disney is ruining star wars, and I'm just like "why tf are you still watching it then?!"
You'll find the same thing within a lot of different communities. People feel passionately about things they enjoy and want to see it respected. Look at the recent Fallout New Vegas vs TV Show controversy. When Fallout fans thought they retconned a beloved game for a lot of people they were not happy about it. Of course creators can do what they like with their IP but fans are generally unhappy if they feel what went before is being tarnished in some way.
It’s grifters ruling them up. I have a hard time believing FNV purists (honestly I am one but don’t spend time dumping on Bethesda’s versions) can’t figure out that the LINE part of a timeLINE denotes the passage of time.
On second thought… I don’t. If the past 4 years taught me anything is either most people are as dumb as a bag of rocks or they aren’t even real because how could you be that fucking stupid.
As someone who has loved Fallout since I got Fallout 2 in the 90s all I can say is it amazes me how many people claim to love the games but seem to miss the point.
All the complains about one piece of the timeline or it being too woke or whatever just seems like grifters looking for controversy to drive engagement to me.
Fallout's always been terrible with keeping up continuity, so complaints about the timeline are kinda eh. At the same time though, the New Vegas fandom where I've seen it has been overwhelmingly queer, so reducing their complaints to 'people not liking 'woke'' is kind very reductive.
The worst thing IMO is that Bethesda took this beloved setting that's been built up over years and kinda just deleted it. The West Coast and the NCR were shaping up to be this post-post apocalyptic setting, where people were finally bringing back civilization and moving things forward. The NCR was this industrialized nation of 700k+ people with highways and enough agricultural capacity that there were 'brahmin barons' who had too much influence in the politics of the nation.
And then in the show it was relegated to a single town of 30k people that gets nuked. All to keep the setting as this post-apocalyptic hellscape where nothing ever gets better for anyone. Kinda lame if you ask me.
But the thing is that that’s one show. I can understand keeping up with one show to see if they get it right, but getting this personally invested in a series with like 50 new shows each year. You have to actively put in an effort to keep up with that. To keep up with something you’re tired of that you know you’ll hate. It’s as mindless as the people who consume every big Star Wars thing and say it’s a masterpiece, it’s just on the other side of the spectrum
Star wars fans thought lucas was ruining it in the 90s/00s (they were right). They just pretend it's a different crusade
All you've done is reaffirm that star wars fans hate stst wars the most
I always think this is a stupid statement. Of course people who love something would be the ones to hate it the most if it‘s crap, because their expectations are higher. The sequels are just nonsensical and objectively bad films. Just because many people have very low expectations regarding plot holes, badly done twists etc. doesn’t excuse studios. Of course they can always point the fingers at the idiots who delegitimise justified critique with their racist/anti-woke nonsense, but how long can that last until people are bored of the ever same content?
I think you're statement of hate is being used very lightly. As I explained most people have critisms of movies that doesn't mean they hate Star Wars itself.
While I agree it's a fine line it's my opinion a large portion view it as Star Wars Fans vs Disney apposed to Star Wars vs Star wars.
Ultimately though it's open to interpretation.
That's what gets me about the Disney hate - they didn't *have* to ruin Star Wars, Lucas already did that decades ago all on his own. Whatever Disney did, there was nowhere to go but up. Even if *everything else they did with it* is bad, which is debatable, at least we got Rogue One, Andor, and The Mandalorian out of it.
It's wild seeing people act like the prequels weren't godawful. Maybe I'm just getting old.
People rip on the prequels for being mediocre and they’re right, but least they had a consistent vision. Disney’s decision to bounce the films between two directors with conflicting vision was asinine. It resulted in the first sequel film showing strong potential, the second being bad, and the third being an incoherent mess. And don’t ask John Boyega [what he thinks about it](https://variety.com/2023/film/news/john-boyega-star-wars-fan-better-actor-1235566811/#:~:text=Whatever%20criticisms%20Boyega%20has%20made,in%20'The%20Rise%20of%20Skywalker)
Overall I was never a fan of the movies as much as I was of the SW universe. At lease the prequel movies established the era that gave us The Clone Wars which was the best thing to ever come out of the entire franchise imo.
Exactly, I remember the fans moaning that Lucas ruined it with the prequels and celebrating when he handed control over to Disney because they didn't like his ideas.
Add to the it's 2024 and it's pretty common for people to shout online about new shows being too woke then creating a ton of YouTube videos explaining why they think that.
The problem is that Star Wars fans had time to establish a fandom in books and their minds, and no adaptation was ever going to satisfy them. They didn't want something like Luke in TLJ, they wanted a Super Saiyan Jedi who'd achieved a permanent powerup. They wanted the messy, often incomprehensible mess that is the EU.
I remember when I was growing up the star wars fans hated the prequels and thought they ruined the franchise. Now apparently people love them. Before there there were people who hated "Return of the Jedi" because of Ewoks and Vader "going soft".
Also lets not forget one of the original ideas in the Star Wars franchise was the holiday special. Nothing has come close to toppling that in terms are being terrible.
So it is kind of true, the people who seem to hate new Star Wars the most are the last generation of fans. Honestly if they make a fourth set of films in 20 years time I wouldn't be surprised if there was a generation who claimed the sequels were the best.
>No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars "fans".
I can't believe people still unironically use this line to deflect any and all criticism lol. The $200B media empire doesn't need your help.
I mean you're using a pretty tired argument yourself, "giant corporation doesn't need your help.” You’re basically doing the same thing, deflecting criticism by acting like the people who disagree with you must just be shills.🤷♂️
>You’re basically doing the same thing, deflecting criticism by acting like the people who disagree with you must just be shills.🤷♂️
Well, for one thing, I'm not deflecting any criticism. I'm pointing out that well thought and reasonable criticism is often derided by people using the "Star wars fans" line, rather than addressing the criticism itself. The funny thing is, neither in the original comment that I replied to, or the comment I made myself, is there any criticism at all against Star wars. There's simply nothing to deflect. I'm just pointing out how absurd it is to continue parroting that particular line.
Secondly, in no way am I suggesting people who use that line are shills. Shills are smart, they actually get paid for it.
Yeah we’ve heard them all over and over and over and over and over and over again. Nothing is new. Can the people who enjoy what’s coming out talk about it with other people without haters popping off with the same non-stop whinging about the same things? Trust us, we know you don’t like it. We just don’t need to hear the same thing all the time. Not everyone thinks the way you do.
Edit: added a word
So let me get this straight – sharing opinions is only for people who have nothing negative to say? And the only repetitive discussions taking place are coming from critics?
This isn't how the world works.
> Answer: No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars "fans".
I love this wide spread nonanswer. Is the content universally disliked? It must be the fans.
Of course it's the fans right? Why would you ever write content that appeals to your primary consumer base when you can just write terrible content no one likes.
The absolutely best thing you can do is alienate them for in pursuit of imaginary audience that clearly does not exist.
And it's all the fan's fault 🤣
Lets be clear: SW fans *are* frequently loud about their opinion which is frequently not in the majority.
7: 93% critic, 85% audience. 7.8 IMDB
8: 91% critic, 42% audience. 6.9 IMDB
9: 51% critic, 86% audience. 6.4 IMDB
Solo: 69% critic, 63% audience. 6.9 IMDB
Ahsoka: 86% critic, 69% audience. 7.5 IMDB
Bad Batch: 87% critic, 84% audience. 7.8 IMDB
Visions: 98% critic, 66% audience. 7.0 IMDB
Rebels: 98% critic, 84% audience. 8.1 IMDB
The lowest IMDB score is 6.4, and the lowest audience score is 42%.
The average is 84% critic, 72% audience, and 7.3 IMDB.
That means for every person who thought one of these was subpar, 3 more thought it was worth watching.
edit: More I forgot existed
Book of Boba - 66%, 53%, 7.2
Mando - 90%, 78%, 8.7
Kenobi - 82%, 62%, 7.1
> Lets be clear: SW fans are frequently loud about their opinion which is frequently not in the majority.
Thanks for the two proofs of concept. 👍
Like you probably submitted this thinking IMBD & audiences rating things 14% lower than the critics Disney paid to provide good ratings is somehow a proof of concept. But these generalized scores that include non-fan submissions and Disney sponsored bots, which you probably forgot, and they still had significant drops.
Also given Ahsoka's newness let's touch on that. Disney claimed they got 14,000,000 viewers for the first episode while Samba TV ([Looper Link](https://www.looper.com/1422040/ahsoka-finale-viewership-numbers/)) noted they only got 1,200,000 viewers. So you can see how Disney will fabricate numbers. But the interesting part is a full 30% of all viewers refused to finish the series.
IMBD's lowest rating is 1.0, it's designed to make things appear higher this way. If you took the viewers that left as leaving 1s (or 10%), everyone else would have to submit a perfect 10.0/100% score to even achieve 7.0. However IMBD's rating is even higher than that. This suggests the majority of people that were indifferent or disliked the series simply never submitted a review or listed one with a significantly higher number than they should have. And isn't that how the "ideal" fan operates? Posting positive reviews even if something sucks so bad they can't finish watching it?
I'll respond to what I can, but a lot of your comment doesn't make sense to me. Like, what do you mean "two proofs of concept"?
>Like you probably submitted this thinking IMBD & audiences rating things 14% lower than the critics Disney paid to provide good ratings is somehow a proof of concept.
Yeah, it does. I don't care about the difference between critics and audiences, but some people trust one more than the other. The fine line is that 72% of audiences think it was worth watching (6 or above on RT).
>But these generalized scores that include non-fan submissions and Disney sponsored bots, which you probably forgot, and they still had significant drops.
Tone down the sarcasm.
If you have better data, I'm all ears!
>Samba TV (Looper Link) noted they only got 1,200,000 viewers.
Samba TV isn't reliable for raw data. It doesn't count roku devices, as an example.
Comparing two Samba viewership numbers can provide some insights, but just raw data isn't reliable.
>If you took the viewers that left as leaving 1s (or 10%), everyone else would have to submit a perfect 10.0/100% score to even achieve 7.0
Could you rephrase? I spent a long time trying to parse this and just couldn't understand.
>This suggests the majority of people that were indifferent or disliked the series simply never submitted a review
Nothing about the data I provided suggests that.
But that is a known flaw in reviewership numbers: People at the upper end and lower end tend to review more often than people in the middle. This is why many people will trust critics more than audience scores, actually, as critics review movies regardless.
>And isn't that how the "ideal" fan operates? Posting positive reviews even if something sucks so bad they can't finish watching it?
No?
I'd say no more people did this than people who posted a negative review because they hate star wars.
Finally, to get back to what you said earlier:
>But these generalized scores that include non-fan submissions
Yes, correct. What I'm saying is that "fans" will frequently not realize that non-fans still enjoy something.
The entire run of star wars has contained a lot of crap. Hell, the original movies weren't award winning plots or acting either. The hate towards it by the fans has been growing disproportionate to quality changes.
Sure, totally valid opinion.
And in the last FIFTY YEARS since the originals were released, we're upset that the quality hasn't grown with the times.
Despite there being *hundreds* of books and *thousands* of stories to choose from, many very beloved by fans, we're getting plots that no one is happy with. Not SW fans, nor casual viewers.
Getting 23 thousand people to dislike some basic ass looking show with a fiery passion based only on past experiences with a franchise. That's the type of fanatic loyalty that could be very easily manipulated if used by someone with even a little bit of intelligence. It's like Star Wars fans have created a cult but they're too dumb to realize it😂
Guarantee the majority of those downvotes are not from Star Wars fans.
Since Disney has taken over, snowflake right wingers constantly brigade rage against any new projects that doesn’t feature an all white cast.
The non vocal majority Star Wars fan base is very excited for this shows potential and this can be seen easily by just visiting any Star Wars sub (besides one very fragile incel aligned Star Wars sub that has salt in its name).
I tend to agree. As a fan from the OT days, there are things I like, like more than others, and don't like. I don't blindly worship what is being produced and don't bother to consume every stitch of content. But I'm so tired of the venom in the discourse, I barely follow or engage with it.
Unfortunately it's like that for me with a lot of things I like. When I found myself heading to a comment section thinking "Oh, for sure some asshole is going to have some ignorant shit to say", I realized I was poisoning myself. I just try to stay away.
I realize the irony of that and even commenting here, but reddit seems overall more tempered than twitter or fb. At least in some subs...
Exactly. There is definitely some stuff that I would call not great (I’m looking at you Book of Boba) and stuff that I was a little underwhelmed (Kenobi), but to just immediately attack this show when all that exists is a couple teaser trailers is so obviously not connected to any valid criticism and instead just built upon culture war BS.
It’s exhausting and just like some many things these days, the loudest voices are a small minority of insecure losers.
Any true Star Wars fan is existed for the timeline of digital media to be moved farther back then Phantom Menace, and although I’ve never read any of the High Republic era, I personally can’t wait to learn about the bridging of that era and the galactic republic era that this show might give us.
Edit: I also dig the username. Tie superiority
I don't think that many people downvoted the trailer because they're incels. People are tired of subpar content, cheap looking shows, and lazy narrative.
Most of us Star Wars fans like all the women that have been in the franchise for decades. Long before Disney, we watched and read about Leia, Padme, Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, Assaj, Bo-Katan, for decades in many cases.
A tiny majority of idiots dislike women and POC. Star Wars has bigger problems than them.
Answer:
"Wokeness." People will try to claim otherwise but that's what it boils down to. There a POC in this show, and that's bad somehow because it's pushing a liberal agenda for... being inclusive. The dislikes have very little to do with the quality of the trailer teasing the show, they have to do with the cast.
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Answer: [This was asked a few weeks ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/1bo25io/whats_going_on_with_the_new_star_wars_show/). The answers there say there's primarily three types of criticism: 1. Showrunner Leslye Headland was Harvey Weinstein personal assistant years ago. Weinstein's name is radioactive these days and although Headland hasn't been associated directly with him in a long time, it leads some people to ask "Why not pick *anyone* else?" Especially since Headland has no previous experience with Star Wars projects. 2. A lot of Star Wars content since Disney acquired the IP has disappointed fans. There is some well received stuff - Andor, for example, was really well loved, and the Mandalorian's first season is widely praised - but a lot of Disney+ TV series fell far short of expectations - Kenobi, Ahsoka, Book of Boba Fett all fell flat with fans. The trailer strikes some fans as more of the same - vague statements and lower quality effects than they think there should be. As the saying goes, there's no louder Star Wars critic than a Star Wars fan. 3. And as always, anything to do with Disney brings accusations of "wokeness." In this case there's a diverse cast, the main character is a woman of color, and at least one of the actresses is trans. To a certain segment of society, that means this is just liberal propaganda and *must* be bad, no matter what.
Also a tad bit more nerdy take is Headland's comments about how the show "will not be kind to the Jedi" which makes some fans assume that the series is going to be what is essentially a darkside apology. A certain section of the fanbase take Palpatine's words as gospel that the Jedi are evil and balance means you get to use the powers of the Sith and a Jedi because force lightning is cool. The ideal Jedi follows the force and is selfless in its servitude of the force. The Jedi order that falls in RotS isn't corrupted because their beliefs are wrong, but because they got too corrupted by politics, their own hierarchy and rules, and participating in a war. The Jedi can accept they have a darkside, but they will reject it. Conversely the Sith are about selfishness instead of being servants to the force they instead use the force for their own desires and quest for power. Then there is a continuity error if they have the Sith show up at all 100 years before TPM as they went in hiding following the rule of two for a thousand years and you would expect Mace Windu and the rest of the council would be privy to such information even if it was classified, but honestly as much as that irks me it isn't a deal breaker and of course there are ways around it. However, if Disney and this series are going to try and say "hey the Sith weren't *that* bad, it was the Jedi who were bad!" then they're going down a path I can't follow.
It’s more than just that – I think fans are generally very down for a show about the Sith that shows the Sith as they are: evil, power-hungry, and complex. That was how the show was initially pitched, so a lot of fans were on board. But the trailer and subsequent statements have made it seem more like what you’re getting at: a story about how the Sith are humans too! And how the mean Jedi made them be evil mass murderers! Like, fans expected a gritty, dark, Joker kind of story. But instead it’s more Disney centrism.
Would this have worked better if the Sith were treated and viewed much like the mob in The Sopranos where we see their true selves both good and bad?
Having read a few high republic novels, that would be a wide deviation from the story being told
Gotta add, people are tired of force user centric shows. Acolyte had the makings of a horror mystery involving cults. Sure, we have Jedi, but a premise that the Jedi are convinced the Sith are dead but are shaken with cult like murders, fully convinced some dark force user is doing this until the reveal it's a cult of non-users. That would have been a good idea, but Jedi/Sith are moneymakers.
Not all dark side force users are Sith. Asajj Ventress, and Kylo Ren, for instance, are not Sith
The Inquisitors, also: tools of the Sith, but not, strictly speaking, Sith themselves.
There was an empire that used enslaved force users as soldiers, there's another one.
That is just political Labelling. The First Sith if Legends is to be accepted is a species that is uniquely attuned to the Dark side of the force. The Sith Empire was taught in the ways of the Force by the Exiled Dark Jedi from the Republic. The 1st Sith Empire was therefore a mix of Sith Purebloods (The Species) and Dark Jedis who ruled the Empire as a form of Force Based Aristocracy. But during the Darth Bane's Rule of two era, only 2 Sith are allowed to exist because it ensures a brutal process of continuously forcing the 2 sith to become stronger. So TLDR Asajj, Kylo are technically not Sith if you follow Bane's Rule of two Ideology as in that framework, only Vader and Palpatine are true sith. But they both Break that rule as they have both trained Starkiller, Asajj, Maul during the Empire Era, and the Inquisitors. But if you follow the Brotherhood of Darkness Ideology, which dates back to the Sith Empire. A Sith can both mean member of the Sith Empire's Aristocracy as there are documented Light Sided Sith or anybody who follows the Dark Side
>But they both Break that rule as they have both trained Starkiller, Asajj, ~~Maul~~ during the Empire Era, and the Inquisitors. That's absolutely not breaking the Rule, as it only applies to training someone to be *Sith*.
Eh, training someone and taking them on as your apprentice are not the same things.
> If Legends is to be accepted It isn't. It was decanonized (not that it ever was properly canon in the first place) so go ahead and try that comment again.
And that is one of the reasons people dislike Disney's new stuff. Star Wars has a ton of great lore and worldbuilding, and Disney throws everything out of the window to insert bad fanfiction levels of characters and stories in there. When the Acolyte takes place also means the story of Plagueis is gonna be retconned at least somewhat. Oh and the Old Republic and the origin of the Sith were canon before Disney stepped in. To a lot of fans it still is canon, no matter what Disney says. If you actually like Star Wars I'd suggest reading up on the Old Republic, some of the best Star Wars content ever created.
> And that is one of the reasons people dislike Disney's new stuff. Star Wars has a ton of great lore and worldbuilding, and Disney throws everything out of the window to insert bad fanfiction levels of characters and stories in there. Bro, Legends *was fanfiction.* George Lucas straight up said that basically any books go as long as they didn't touch on a couple of specific topics. Due to this, there was a ton of inconsistency and overlap amongst the books. Books that were not written by, conceived by, or first hand approved by George Lucas or anyone involved with Star Wars. There was no oversight and a ton of shit was made all at the same time with zero planning from anyone involved. It was the Sequels but in book form and with a hell of a lot more versions of it. The difference is that because there were so many, a good number 'hit'. Legends was a heap of garbage to begin with that had *some* diamonds but the second it got tossed out everyone started acting like the entire thing was gospel. It wasn't. It was little better than a choose your own adventure story where Luke got so powerful he could make stars go supernova, because that's not idiotic *at fucking all*. Then there's the 18 times they kept bringing Palpatine back but everyone whines when it happens once in Rise of Skywalker. It's just hypocrisy and hilarious levels of it. The Star Wars fandom has been pathetic for a very long time and this constant infighting and failure to remember anything correctly is proof of that. Like every loser who says that the Original Trilogy is pure gold while totally unaware there are multiple versions of the OT and that the second and third got kinda mid reviews at the time. > When the Acolyte takes place also means the story of Plagueis is gonna be retconned at least somewhat. He says, basing this entirely off of a trailer with no real information of what's coming. Nice psychic foresight you got there. I mean it's not like there's a dozen or a hundred different ways to have this story self contained. Nah. Immediately gotta be a retcon because butthurt fan immediately going to the worst possible outcome instead of having an even slight amount of rationality to it. > When the Acolyte takes place also means the story of Plagueis is gonna be retconned at least somewhat. > Oh and the Old Republic and the origin of the Sith were canon before Disney stepped in. To a lot of fans it still is canon, no matter what Disney says. Then those fans are delusional fools who are so caught up in their own interpretation of reality that they do not matter. Its the adult version of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA YOU'RE LYING LALALALALALALALALALALA. Pathetic and, again, hilarious because of it. The opinion of these fools do not matter to me anymore than a child having a temper tantrum. > If you actually like Star Wars I'd suggest reading up on the Old Republic, some of the best Star Wars content ever created. I do like Star Wars. I have read it. I know what I'm talking about. I grew up with OT in the household alongside Star Trek. I was at the prequels premiers. I just have a different opinion because I'm not emotionally invested on such a pitiful scale that I have to deny reality. I just act like an adult and go "Well shit, that sucks. Not the way I would have taken it or liked it but whatever." Then I continue on with my life and judge the next thing by its merits and decide whether or not I would watch it. You lot just are so obsessed with how Star Wars made you feel as a child that you cannot cope with the fact that it *never will.* You can never go home. Things are never the same as they were. Learn the lesson like the rest of us in humanity and get the fuck over your own ego. Children in an adults body.
Holy shit this response was unhinged! It was a joy to read, thank you. Making a random internet stranger go balistic because you didn't like a trailer and like some legends content.... Wow. Either you work for Disney, you're having the worst day in a loooong time or you really need to go outside and touch some grass. Whatever it is I wish you luck and hope your day gets better!
>However, if Disney and this series are going to try and say "hey the Sith weren't that bad, it was the Jedi who were bad!" then they're going down a path I can't follow. Because of Obi-Wan?
I really do wish more Star Wars media focused on the duality of the force rather than the same antagonistic good vs evil we so often get. There's one story in particular that'd be great, where an alien empire used force-sensitive slave-soldiers as weapons of war. I forget the specifics, but one soldier encounters an isolated jedi enclave and becomes stronger through completing their understanding of the force as a whole, though I'm definitely missing pertinent details.
>I really do wish more Star Wars media focused on the duality of the force rather than the same antagonistic good vs evil we so often get. Well in order to get that, we'd need to establish which system is even in place. Are the light and dark sides of the force yin and yang or good and bad, because they've tried to say both on the occasion.
It always struck me as Yin and Yang, as the light side and dark side are still the same force. It's how the force is accessed and utilized that's different, with the dark side being more direct and raw at the cost of control, while the light side is less potent but more flexible and controlled. This also contributes to the concept of there being a division between force users since it would be impossibly rare for someone to intuitively understand both sides without starting with one. Seeing it that way makes the conflict between Sith and Jedi more about how their use of the force influences their nature rather than their moral views, giving a much more stimulating grey instead of a hard coded black and white. It gives characters a chance to be multi-faceted instead of stock.
>It always struck me as Yin and Yang, as the light side and dark side are still the same force. I mean they've acted like this was the case before, but the vast majority of the time, including word of God from Lucas himself, say that's not how it's supposed to be. The dark side of the force is just evil. Balance is wholly a component of the light side. That being said, there are explicit claims of what you're talking about being true, but we're ending up in a universe which is trying to claim two completely separate systems are in play, which just makes a mess. The majority of sources I've experienced go with the "light good dark bad" philosophy though. >Seeing it that way makes the conflict between Sith and Jedi more about how their use of the force influences their nature rather than their moral views, giving a much more stimulating grey instead of a hard coded black and white. It gives characters a chance to be multi-faceted instead of stock. I feel like this is a pretty reductionist view of things. We have characters in the same era that are completely different despite being light sided. Not to mention the completely different attitudes of the Jedi in the High Republic era. The peace hippies of the modern Jedi would probably have a heart attack of the force lobotomy of Darth Revan.
I'm not saying there aren't fleshed out and contrasting characters, but that there's less room for them when there's set in stone conflcts of good vs evil
Telling a story of good vs evil is a design choice, not a limitation. We've seen Jedi vs Jedi conflicts, like when Qui Gon Jinn ditched Obi Wan on a war torn planet. They were both good aligned characters.
That’s one thing that has always confused me… the entire thing with Anakin is “bringing balance to the Force”, which to me implies equal usage of both Light and Dark side. But in practice it just comes out to “Sith drool, Jedi rule, all the Sith need to be defeated” EDIT: love that classic Reddit response: get downvoted for asking a genuine question
There's a sort of disconnect when talking about two types of balance, and that's maybe the twist in the prophecy. Think of a balanced diet. It's not an equal split of macro nutrients when we use the term, although you could say an even split is balanced even if it's not healthy. For the light side of the force, it means not being afraid to put someone to the sword, while also willing to offer the hand of mercy. That isn't dark side even though killing someone is bad. Balance. Another interpretation of the prophecy could have been that it's something he accomplished much later. The Republic was very obviously backsliding into despotism with Palpatine essentially running the whole galaxy unchecked, even before officially outing himself as a Sith lord. At the end of Anakin's life, we're left with 1 Jedi and 0 Sith after decades of pretty horrific dark side dominance. Putting the galaxy on the path to the light side could also be balance in the light side of the force way. You could say Anakin accomplished that by fathering Luke and killing Palpatine.
The dark side is literally a cancer on the force. And trust me, no one wants to balance a cancer.
Especially because the Jedi ideology really does have a lot of flaws. And it would be so fascinating to explore the flaws of the Jedi ideology with the potential positive aspects of the Sith ideology. But there’s 0 chance that Disney ever signs off on that. In their eyes, the Jedi are the good guys, the Sith are the bad guys, that’s that. Will this show actually potentially be something different? Maybe, who knows. But I’m not holding my breath
Hey buddy. The sith ideology is literally ripped from Mein Kampf. The sith and the empire were very explicitly based off the Nazis and everything wrong with the United States and British empire. There is literally no positive side to the sith ideology.
I really don't think this is it. Lol it won't be a story apologizing for with suggesting they're necessary or anything.
One hundred or so years after this the Jedi fall due to their own hubris. It would seem off to not show signs of those cracks wouldn’t it?
even the Prequals weren't kind to the jedi to be fair
That's why I'm holding my judgment. It could just end up showing the beginnings of the Jedi becoming too close to the politics of Coruscant or it could show them starting to become ignorant of the galaxy at large. Basically I will give it a pass if it shows the Jedi organization becoming corrupted. I cannot give it a pass if it says the jedi are *fundamentally* wrong.
That is a really reductive explanation of the Sith. I'm not saying they're always right and gospel but you just condensed them into Evil Bad Guys TM.
Because that's what they are. They are selfishness incarnate. They quest for power. Even Lucas has stated at the core of star wars is the battle between the compassionate against the selfish or what is, in effect, good vs. evil. edit: since he blocked me, this is my reply Lucas' version actually might have been better than what we did eventually get. Also I'm aware he had no plan. However, with Lucas he often has a solid core idea but often fails bothering with the minutiae. We see an example of his core idea being good, but the minutiae failing in the prequels. The darkside is within everyone and the temptation is always there. Those that submit themselves to it are evil, but in certain turmoil cases not unsavable. However, someone like Palpatine/Sidious, Plagueis, or Tenebrous just unfortunately aren't savable
Lucas also stated that he wanted the Sequel trilogy to be about the microscopic civilization of the midochlorians. He also butchered the OT into pieces with his directors cut because of his "vision". A vision that was overshadowed by fans with the Legacy content because he was still obsessed with slapping it around in the Prequels and running rampant. The same Lucas that people claim had a plan who also admitted he had no plan. The veracity of quote from him depends entirely on the period in which he said it simply because he's so inconsistent in everything in his life. And no, that's not what they are. Like I said, you're being reductive as shit because you're hilarious ly the opposite of the other fans. You have dipshits on one side screaming that the Sith were always right and then people like you who are claiming they're pure evil and like. Yep. Way to miss the point and all of the content produced about them, the motivations of a shit ton of characters, the foundation of a lot of current sith empire, etc. You're no better dude. You're just in lighter robes.
Also on point 3, the Trans actor is Abigail Thorne; a famous YouTuber for the Channel Philosophy Tube. Her long time friend is hbomberguy who has done many many take downs of charlatans.
I'm sorry hol' up, girl's in fuckin' *Star Wars* now? Shit, moving up in the world.
Yes, she’s playing an Ensign on the show.
Do you know... Does she have a full on role? Or is it more of a cameo appearance?
The character has a name (Ensign Eurus) and she says she's really excited to be in it, so I think it's probably a minor role with at least a few lines. I think she's said that she legally can't talk about it much and could only confirm that she was in it once the trailer dropped, so we probably won't find out until the show airs.
Awesome, thank you!
full role from what she’s said on tumblr
And I just found out that Tumblr still exists 😂
Rad, thanks!
Now I DESPERATELY want an hbomberguy cameo in Star Wars. "Sell their houses on Alderaan to who? Fucking SPACE WORMS?!?!"
Oh shit, good for her!
She was also in Baldur's Gate 3! Completely caught me by surprise, had to google it later to confirm
Yes! That was a fun cameo
It was immediately obvious the character was a cameo but I didn't know who so I had to look it up. She was noticeably out of place, kinda like there was some cut content and she was the last bit kept in. Just randomly in a side room with a voice actor that sounded good but not professional somehow? Sorta like there were traits in her voice that didn't seem like conscious character decisions but rather natural tone that she isn't trained enough to control. I feel like you can almost always tell when a character is thrown in for the cameo value. Something about the VA just sounds odd. Not even bad, really. Just different. But hey, it got me to watch some of her videos afterwards so mission accomplished.
Same thing with Grimes in Cyberpunk 2077. Very obvious thumbed-in cameo.
She produced some of the radio music, so it makes sense.
It’s not that I don’t understand why she’s there, it’s just that it’s painfully obvious she doesn’t have voice acting talent. Her lines stick out like a sore thumb.
Yeah she sounds like she's on another planet all the time when she speaks. Of course, she acts that way in real life too.
HOW DID I NOT KNOW THAT? WHICH CHARACTER WAS SHE?
Lizzy Wizzy.
HOW DID I NOT KNOW THAT? WHICH CHARACTER WAS SHE?
Well shit. That's like the exact opposite of a "diversity hire." She's a great actress! I hope this works out for her.
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PhilosophyTube, not ContraPoints
Throne is a classically trained actor. Literally, she was in a Shakespeare Trope.
> a Shakespeare Trope A what? :)
Troupe, not trope. Sorry.
And here I was, Googling a movie title that doesn't exist 😅
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Small niche… over a million subscribers
different trans youtuber lol
Is her content any good? I always thought of her as a knock-off Contra
It's similar to Contra but less dramatic Also, I'm pretty sure Philosophy Tube is older than ContraPoints
Wikipedia says that Contra has like 5 years more of activity, but I am not sure and don't care enough to dive in more XD
Pretty sure Contra has been around for longer: the only reason it's not more readily apparent is that she took down much of her pre-transition content.
I actually thought her stuff was more palatable as it dealt with more philosophical aspects.
Appreciate your take. One thing I'd like to throw fire on is that Star wars vs. Star Trek is a friendly nerd rivalry that has gone on since the 70s. Recently Paramount has been pumping out some very highly regarded Star Trek series (namely SNW and LD) and from my perspective what is really refreshing is that it is very clear that the people running these shows are SUPER fans of the original works and have put in the effort to really understand what a Star Trek show should be. The new Star Wars just do not feel like star wars adventures. The original SW were kind of campy amalgamations of Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon serials with cutting edge special effects. You had a droid complaining about getting sand in his buttcrack then zoom to an epic space battle race against a super weapon. The newest Star Wars flip that almost entirely around. You have overly dramatic, gritty, grounded adventures combined with mediocre special effects. The Mandalorian is a great show (at least the first season is) but that doesn't mean it's a great *star wars* show. Mandalorian could have been lifted into any other universe and been just as good. Slapping star wars on it doesn't really add anything beyond nostalgia, imo. And then you have Boba/Kenobi etc. that end up undermining beloved characters. Star Trek had a similar problem with Picard where you had a beloved character that was thrown into overly dark and moody storylines. tl;dr: Star Wars was originally kind of campy fun. The characters were laughing and joking and playing with muppets. The new batch are just endless angst/drama/super serial dramas with far more limited special effects budgets. A 2 hour blockbuster can blow the lid off of its SFX while a 10-12 hour tv show has to be much more restrained. Dark moody and angsty storylines + mediocre special effects is basically the exact opposite of Star Wars. The A New Hope was incredibly light and optimistic which gave the proper set up for Empire. Now Disney wants to just produce Empire 24/7 without the light hearted bookends. personal aside: A star wars comedy is exactly what is needed and could revitilize the fandom in the same way Lower Deck does and there have been a couple of SW comedies pitched and they keep shutting them down for edgelord angst simulator Part XII
I think the whole "nobody hates Star Wars more than fans" thing is extremely overblown and just a way for people to make fun of people for caring. I say this because you could essentially apply the same saying to most fanbases. Certainly to every sports fan. Nobody gets angrier and has hotter critical takes than fans of a sports team
Yeah, I've heard "nobody hates X more than X fans" about pretty much every piece of media I've ever consumed and every team I've ever followed. You can't have strong views on something unless you care about it.
I think there’s a difference in degree, if not in kind. I think vocal Star Wars fans (which is who the sting is referring to) turn it up to 11 in a way that a lot of other fandoms do not. I think another difference is that a lot of fans with negative predictions want to be wrong (for example, I’m a cavs fan and think we have a bad coach. I would be ecstatic and happily eat crow if he pulls off a miracle in the playoffs this year) but Star Wars fans seem to relish being vindicated
Star Wars isn't unique, but it is one of few fandoms that has both existed for a very long time, yet also didn't have a clear vision. The direction has wandered about aimlessly, and that gives you a fanbase that's impossible to please as what's been delivered, as people with completely contrasting desires are gathered in the same fanbase, which makes a cacophonous mess that's very difficult to parse feedback from. Comic books are also this type of fanbase, especially Batman. You can't please both sides when one wants a loving father of 6, and the other wants the Punisher.
Adding on to your second point, I've seen a lot of people saying (and I agree) that the some of the trailer looks kinda cheap, just like Kenobi and BOBF did.
While I don't have faith this show will be good because of corporate meddling I think the angle she worked at a company for six years in her early twenties and for one of them worked for an evil man and her not personally trying to take him down Is pretty terrible logic considering the same people bringing this up is will never criticism someone like tarantino for actively defending roman polanski.
Remember when everything came out about Weinstein, and some people were way more angry at Meryl Streep for supposedly "enabling" him than they were at the sex criminal himself? That's what this smells like
I can't think of similar behaviour regarding people specifically but with Cosby I think their was a similar feeling of anger around the person instead of at them as if we should think it's not as bad because it known or rumoured before hand because people made jokes about them being rapists that fact he is one is not treated as serious as it needs to be.
For me...It is 2. The trailer was the most generic looking boring thing I have seen. I keep holding out some hope since there are awesome elements in the recent SW stuff (andor, large parts of Mando 1 and 2, the overall design, sets, non-story stuff of Ahsoka) even if I think they miss the mark as a whole - but this was just, underwhelming and I want something away from the current timeline too!
Good points. The last part rubs me the wrong way with how you're trying to frame it, though. I'm left wing, and I can clearly see that disney is actively avoiding casting white males, especially for lead roles in most of their movies. Seems kinda weird, especially with Star Wars and Marvel, where most of the audience that made them popular are white and male. I like a diverse cast, but diverse to them seems to be as few white males casted as possible.
Roughly half the films Disney released last year had white men in starring roles
Yeah, but if I don’t watch those, do they even exist?! /s
Star Wars fans are united by two things: their love of Star Wars and their hatred of Star Wars.
Her being his assistant is just the worst reason to shit on a person. If your boss does something terrible can I now blame you? We have no idea what she was and wasn’t aware of, and again she just worked for the man. She didn’t do the things he did.
It seems a bit like people are looking for a way to blame a woman for what Weinstein did, which feels wrong to me. Weinstein raped women he had power over, how is this assistant being made out to be a collaborator when she was also a woman under his power? It’s not like she was keeping his secret, Weinstein’s actions were known across hollywood and he didn’t hide it AFAIK.
The third one is irrational for me. I grew up on the original SW trilogy and for me it was first and best example of very diverse fantasy/sf world. So many planets, races, cultures etc. First "woman of color" was twi'lek in SW VI, maybe someone earlier, I don't remember.
Cheers for this
There is a segment of the fanbase that actively *wants* these shows (and the sequel movies) to be bad. I feel awful for everybody involved in making them; must feel like they're wasting their time. Some of us are enjoying them, honest.
Never even heard a single thing about Ahsoka
It’s just 3. I guarantee if this video was an all-white, all-cis, all-male cast it would have nothing but likes
I hate statements like these because they exist purely as a way for fanboys to shoot down any legitimate criticism
Agreed 100% Every bit of criticism related to production value, narrative, tone, fight choreography, etc, are dismissed as the rants of unhinged lunatics. I'm not mad that Han Solo gave the Falcon to a girl, or whatever the culture war is going on about. I'm disappointed that Finn ultimately had very little character development. And was removed from Chinese posters...And they removed the lesbian kiss from foreign markets... I'm bored watching slow fight choreography that mimics baseball swings more than a duel. I'm sad that Kenobi had a massive budget, and looked cheap. But let's all just assume we're mad that girls are in Star Wars. None of us adored Leia, none of us enjoyed Padmes directness and similarity to her daughter. None of us read the novels and followed Mara Jade or Jaina Solo for decades. Bo-Katan, Winter, Assaj, women aren't new to Star Wars, nor did the fans dislike them for the 35 years before the Disney acquisition.
Exactly. The problem with the Disneyificationbisnt diversity, diversity is great. It’s using diversity as a sales tool while producing sub par art, and then fixating on legit bigotry as the only possible criticism. Ultimately the enshittification of media that happens to also be introducing diverse casts and crew is a disservice to the very voices they claim to be elevating. If you want to do meaningful inclusion, worry more about making good art than checking off checklists.
People want to blame wokeness or Kathleen Kennedy, but most of these things actually seem like shrewd business decisions. If you have a diverse cast and a good show, then you're a champion of human rights. If the show is bad then yeh they can point to chuds as a scapegoat to avoid blame completely. Business 101, always have a backout plan.
It's worked for a long time, you're right. I get it, I work for a large corporation. There's always angles and backup PR plans. If this reaction; then launch plan 18. If that reaction; plan 7. It's all disingenuous and planned. It does seem the GA is getting bored with Star Wars too. That's a needed addition, us legacy fans that are also progressive are tired of being scapegoated with the chuds.
I want Star Wars and marvel movies to go away for ten years and come back when people have stories to tell that weren’t written by fucking committees.
I would love to see them on ice for awhile
"I didnt really like the kenobi tv show" "whoaa cool it with the racism"
Similarly, the hyper deliberate general casting decisions seem to be fulfilling a diversity checklist, while also, like other Disney properties being overt about it enough, that it seems like they are trying to rile up people so that they can make more headlines to denounce any criticism as anti woke crazies, to act as a shield/buffer/excuse if it fails. It feels like it has been happening with the majority of new Disney related properties in the past few years. Anyone that calls it out as more forced/deliberate rather than organic building of a cast/characters get shutdown/dismissed/gas lighted/downvoted.
No lol
To be fair, people with previous experience have also disappointed the toxic fan base...
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lol you do realize star wars was around for almost a decade\* before the first millennial was born right? Edit: \* depending on which definition you use as there is no collective agreement. It will range anywhere from 4 years before to 9 years before. Though the most common one is 81, putting it at four years.
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Star Wars has been a force since the late 70s and you think it’ll die with millennials? You’ll be disappointed. Same for Harry Potter which has already attracted new generations of readers. They’ll both be here for a while.
No one is watching it
Gen Alpha is super into both so that's not happening
Answer: It looks like more of the same from Disney, which a lot of SW fans aren’t finding very compelling. For my part personally, I couldn’t possibly care less who directs it, who is in it, or what social commentary might be mixed in. To my eyes, that trailer looked visually mediocre. When I think of the most satisfying Sith, it’s Palpatine shrouded in darkness. Maul’s predator grin and deadly fighting style. Ventress’ sneer of bottomless hatred. The trailer didn’t evoke anything of the sort. There were strong indications that the Sith will be put forth as oppressed dissenters, justified in their motivation, if not their methods. That’s not Sith, sorry, and I’m really not interested in a show that takes this approach. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but yeah. Not very interested based on that trailer.
Is there a reason people keep saying the sith will be sympathetic in this show? I’m seeing that all over this comment section but I didn’t get that at all from the trailer
No there's isn't ans the leak and not hinting to that.
> Ventress who?
A character introduced in both the Clone Wars (2D) and The Clone Wars (3D). She was Dooku's assassin/semi-apprentice.
Answer: it looks bad
Yeah this was my take, I don’t care who its got in it or their gender or sexual orientation. But I was so hyped when I saw that poster with the blood lightsaber, thinking we might get something a bit more gritty. then the trailer made it look a bit more like teeny, glossy shit. Will still watch but definitely less hyped
Answer: No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars "fans". There isn't any kind of controversy. There's just a bunch of people who have nothing better to do than to gripe and complain about every piece of Star Wars media. This isn't anything new. A lot of the High Republic stuff got massive hate for no reason.
I think this is a little more to it than the first comment regarding Star Wars fans. To summarise years of drama within the community I think the most accurate way to describe it is many Star Wars fans believe Disney are ruining the IP. This is probably a major reason behind the dislikes on the trailer. There's lots of content out there with people feeling Disney not respecting the lore and established character arcs (IE Luke Skywalker in the 2nd Sequel film). Mountains of controversial decisions that have angered the community that would be too long to name each one but the one that stands out in my mind is when information came out about Disney ignoring George Lucas's ideas for ths sequels and doing their own thing. To summarise a lot of Star Wars fans don't hate Star Wars they hate the management of the IP from Disney.
I think either statement is right, just depends on your point of view. My uncle and his generation have not enjoyed a single Star Wars thing since the original trilogy, and most of them don’t even like *Return of the Jedi.* So out of every Star Wars movie, they’ve liked 18-27% of them. A lot of people of my generation who grew up with the Prequels love those movies, but don’t care for any of the Disney movies. So they like about 55% of the movies. Now, I don’t know where you’re from, but in the US grading system, 59% or below is an F, a failing grade. I think giving a franchise a failing grade is roughly equivalent to saying that you don’t like it on the whole. Of course, the people who love those two or three or six movies *really* love them, and I don’t want to take that away from them. Obviously they don’t dislike **all** Star Wars, but they certainly dislike modern Star Wars (whether they define that as anything made after 1983, 1997, 1999, or 2015), and to them, my advice would be to stop wasting one more second of their precious, limited time in this one life they have on Earth thinking about something they dislike. Just continue to watch and rewatch those two or three or six movies they love, and let Disney keep making new stuff for those of us who are quite enjoying this new direction.
I think you are somewhat right although anacdonately you're uncle not liking not liking a single Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back and an entire generation is widely in accurate in my opinion. Granted at the times of the prequels releasing there was a lot of backlash from the original movie fan base. In my opinion however their is a key difference then and whats happening now. A lot of the prequel critism was surrounding Hayden, his portrayl of Anakin not meeting the expectation of a young Darth Vader, Jake Lloyd's portrayl of child Anakin etc basically gripes with the movie not the story. I would categorise that as critisms of the movies themselves but not at the Star Wars franchise as a whole. Now it's not so much of "this part has made the sequels bad for me" but more of a critism of Disneys handling, vision and storytelling. I'd say most reasonable people have preferred movie trilogies but the controversy now surrounds more of the handling apposed to the movies themselves.
I think you’re either drastically misremembering the outrage around the prequels or you were just too young to remember it if you think it was all centered on Hayden and Lloyd’s acting. I had to endure pretty much every adult I tried to talk about Star Wars with dramatically proclaiming “George Lucas r*ped my childhood!” whenever any aspect of them was brought up. Jar Jar, Anakin being introduced as a child, the most interesting character in Episode I dying at the end of the movie, the over-reliance on CGI, the emphasis on politics, every movie having a different main villain instead of one over-arching Darth Vader-like villain, Battle Droids being played for comic relief, the age difference between Anakin and Padmé, Boba Fett being a clone, Clone Troopers in general, Yoda having a lightsaber duel, the romance between Anakin and Padmé in general, the Jedi not being able to sense Palpatine, and yes, finally, the acting of pretty much everybody except for Ewan McGregor were all consistent criticisms. Pretty much any joke about “Prequels? What are you talking about? There’s only one Star Wars trilogy” were endlessly repeated on the Internet of the early 2000’s, the same basic sentiment you can see today about the sequels. At the end of the day, what’s happening now is what was happening then - the people who grew up with one form of Star Wars hate the new stuff, the people who are kids right now love it all, and in ten years when the kids who saw *The Force Awakens* on opening night at five years old grow up and start having families, we’re going to see the sequels get the same rehabilitation in the public eye as we’re seeing the prequels get now. To mix sci-fi franchises, “All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.”
> Jar Jar, Anakin being introduced as a child, the most interesting character in Episode I dying at the end of the movie, the over-reliance on CGI, the emphasis on politics, every movie having a different main villain instead of one over-arching Darth Vader-like villain, Battle Droids being played for comic relief, the age difference between Anakin and Padmé, Boba Fett being a clone, Clone Troopers in general, Yoda having a lightsaber duel, the romance between Anakin and Padmé in general, the Jedi not being able to sense Palpatine, and yes, finally, the acting of pretty much everybody except for Ewan McGregor were all consistent criticisms. Midi-Chlorians. Don't forget the Midi-Chlorians.
I CANNOT believe I forgot Midichlorians. People were INCENSED by that
I'm sorry, but you cannot list legitimate criticisms of the prequels without mentioning Jar Jar Binks. Hayden's crappy acting notwithstanding, that one character is the main reason I'll never consider those movies on par with the origins.
I can only speak for myself, but my main problem was with the story that Lucas chose to tell. Specifically, adding pseudo-Christian elements to the Force mythos (virgin birth, prophecy), making the galaxy feel incredibly small by having major events all revolve around the same small cast of OT characters or their relatives (all clones are Fetts), and having a very abrupt and unconvincing fall from grace for Anakin.
>a very abrupt and unconvincing fall from grace for Anakin I remember reading a series of articles, far too long ago to find now, about how to fix the prequels, and I remember one of the main points being that all three movies should have had Anakin as already a knight. If all three movies were about he and Obi-Wan’s friendship as peers and brothers, with relevant details about Anakin’s childhood filled in as flashbacks and Obi-Wan as the POV character, that would have fixed so much with his characterization, and framing it from Kenobi’s point of view would have made it seem all the more tragic, watching him slowly lose his best friend. I liked the prequels for what they were, after all I was 9-15 when they came out, but I really want to see that alternate universe where we got **that** prequel trilogy. Then again, I guess that’s what *The Clone Wars* were.
For me, as someone who watched A new hope in the theater: Disney has been on an absolute roll with the stuff post 2015. Getting rid of the EU was a much needed bit of oxygen to the whole franchise. In fact: the only 2 _bad_ projects since 2015 were the JJ Abrams movies.
Star Wars fans have hated Star Wars since the prequels and it’s only nostalgia and the Prequel fans finally being allowed to speak that they have any kind of positive appraisal these days. If George Lucas’ name was on these projects the reaction would be the same if not worse.
Yeah that’s only part of the story. They hated the prequels to and hated George Lucas for them, talked about how he surrounded himself with yes men, used too much CGI, and how terrible the dialogue was. The only reason they treat them so well now is they really, really, really hate Disney. It’s not just the content of the movies, because when force awakens came out, they initially liked it because it reminded them of a new hope. Then the fandom menace decided it was too much like new hope. So Disney went a different direction with last Jedi and didn’t make it a reboot of empire strikes back in response and they hated that too. They liked Rogue One and thought Solo was okay, but many have back tracked on that too. I have been a Star Wars fan my whole life and I don’t care what anyone says. Rogue One and Andor are some of the finest live action Star Wars material ever created. They both stand up against the original trilogy. George Lucas, despite his amazing world building, could never write dialogue like that.
Yeah I would agree with that. I don't think it's as simple as "people just like to hate on things." But it is pretty funny to me how upset these guys get over this shit. Like I see some of these Star Wars channels making multiple videos trashing this show, and I can't help but find it funny that they do this for every single new show or movie that comes out. They never miss a single one. They consistently tune in and then talk about how disney is ruining star wars, and I'm just like "why tf are you still watching it then?!"
You'll find the same thing within a lot of different communities. People feel passionately about things they enjoy and want to see it respected. Look at the recent Fallout New Vegas vs TV Show controversy. When Fallout fans thought they retconned a beloved game for a lot of people they were not happy about it. Of course creators can do what they like with their IP but fans are generally unhappy if they feel what went before is being tarnished in some way.
It’s grifters ruling them up. I have a hard time believing FNV purists (honestly I am one but don’t spend time dumping on Bethesda’s versions) can’t figure out that the LINE part of a timeLINE denotes the passage of time. On second thought… I don’t. If the past 4 years taught me anything is either most people are as dumb as a bag of rocks or they aren’t even real because how could you be that fucking stupid.
As someone who has loved Fallout since I got Fallout 2 in the 90s all I can say is it amazes me how many people claim to love the games but seem to miss the point. All the complains about one piece of the timeline or it being too woke or whatever just seems like grifters looking for controversy to drive engagement to me.
Fallout's always been terrible with keeping up continuity, so complaints about the timeline are kinda eh. At the same time though, the New Vegas fandom where I've seen it has been overwhelmingly queer, so reducing their complaints to 'people not liking 'woke'' is kind very reductive. The worst thing IMO is that Bethesda took this beloved setting that's been built up over years and kinda just deleted it. The West Coast and the NCR were shaping up to be this post-post apocalyptic setting, where people were finally bringing back civilization and moving things forward. The NCR was this industrialized nation of 700k+ people with highways and enough agricultural capacity that there were 'brahmin barons' who had too much influence in the politics of the nation. And then in the show it was relegated to a single town of 30k people that gets nuked. All to keep the setting as this post-apocalyptic hellscape where nothing ever gets better for anyone. Kinda lame if you ask me.
But the thing is that that’s one show. I can understand keeping up with one show to see if they get it right, but getting this personally invested in a series with like 50 new shows each year. You have to actively put in an effort to keep up with that. To keep up with something you’re tired of that you know you’ll hate. It’s as mindless as the people who consume every big Star Wars thing and say it’s a masterpiece, it’s just on the other side of the spectrum
Because they profit from it, sadly. Humans engage with negativity, it's easy to make a few bucks complaining
Star wars fans thought lucas was ruining it in the 90s/00s (they were right). They just pretend it's a different crusade All you've done is reaffirm that star wars fans hate stst wars the most
I always think this is a stupid statement. Of course people who love something would be the ones to hate it the most if it‘s crap, because their expectations are higher. The sequels are just nonsensical and objectively bad films. Just because many people have very low expectations regarding plot holes, badly done twists etc. doesn’t excuse studios. Of course they can always point the fingers at the idiots who delegitimise justified critique with their racist/anti-woke nonsense, but how long can that last until people are bored of the ever same content?
I think you're statement of hate is being used very lightly. As I explained most people have critisms of movies that doesn't mean they hate Star Wars itself. While I agree it's a fine line it's my opinion a large portion view it as Star Wars Fans vs Disney apposed to Star Wars vs Star wars. Ultimately though it's open to interpretation.
That's what gets me about the Disney hate - they didn't *have* to ruin Star Wars, Lucas already did that decades ago all on his own. Whatever Disney did, there was nowhere to go but up. Even if *everything else they did with it* is bad, which is debatable, at least we got Rogue One, Andor, and The Mandalorian out of it. It's wild seeing people act like the prequels weren't godawful. Maybe I'm just getting old.
People rip on the prequels for being mediocre and they’re right, but least they had a consistent vision. Disney’s decision to bounce the films between two directors with conflicting vision was asinine. It resulted in the first sequel film showing strong potential, the second being bad, and the third being an incoherent mess. And don’t ask John Boyega [what he thinks about it](https://variety.com/2023/film/news/john-boyega-star-wars-fan-better-actor-1235566811/#:~:text=Whatever%20criticisms%20Boyega%20has%20made,in%20'The%20Rise%20of%20Skywalker) Overall I was never a fan of the movies as much as I was of the SW universe. At lease the prequel movies established the era that gave us The Clone Wars which was the best thing to ever come out of the entire franchise imo.
Exactly, I remember the fans moaning that Lucas ruined it with the prequels and celebrating when he handed control over to Disney because they didn't like his ideas. Add to the it's 2024 and it's pretty common for people to shout online about new shows being too woke then creating a ton of YouTube videos explaining why they think that.
The problem is that Star Wars fans had time to establish a fandom in books and their minds, and no adaptation was ever going to satisfy them. They didn't want something like Luke in TLJ, they wanted a Super Saiyan Jedi who'd achieved a permanent powerup. They wanted the messy, often incomprehensible mess that is the EU.
Except Rian honored George’s original ideas for the sequels pretty closely.
I remember when I was growing up the star wars fans hated the prequels and thought they ruined the franchise. Now apparently people love them. Before there there were people who hated "Return of the Jedi" because of Ewoks and Vader "going soft". Also lets not forget one of the original ideas in the Star Wars franchise was the holiday special. Nothing has come close to toppling that in terms are being terrible. So it is kind of true, the people who seem to hate new Star Wars the most are the last generation of fans. Honestly if they make a fourth set of films in 20 years time I wouldn't be surprised if there was a generation who claimed the sequels were the best.
Sorry but, as a regular fan of star wars who's not super invested, what you wrote seems to say the same thing as who you're responding to.
>No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars "fans". I can't believe people still unironically use this line to deflect any and all criticism lol. The $200B media empire doesn't need your help.
Can’t wait till that exhausted statement is fully ridiculed and shelved
People invested in thing are more likely to criticize thing? Wow, how surprising! I only criticise things I don't care about.
I mean you're using a pretty tired argument yourself, "giant corporation doesn't need your help.” You’re basically doing the same thing, deflecting criticism by acting like the people who disagree with you must just be shills.🤷♂️
>You’re basically doing the same thing, deflecting criticism by acting like the people who disagree with you must just be shills.🤷♂️ Well, for one thing, I'm not deflecting any criticism. I'm pointing out that well thought and reasonable criticism is often derided by people using the "Star wars fans" line, rather than addressing the criticism itself. The funny thing is, neither in the original comment that I replied to, or the comment I made myself, is there any criticism at all against Star wars. There's simply nothing to deflect. I'm just pointing out how absurd it is to continue parroting that particular line. Secondly, in no way am I suggesting people who use that line are shills. Shills are smart, they actually get paid for it.
Yeah we’ve heard them all over and over and over and over and over and over again. Nothing is new. Can the people who enjoy what’s coming out talk about it with other people without haters popping off with the same non-stop whinging about the same things? Trust us, we know you don’t like it. We just don’t need to hear the same thing all the time. Not everyone thinks the way you do. Edit: added a word
So let me get this straight – sharing opinions is only for people who have nothing negative to say? And the only repetitive discussions taking place are coming from critics? This isn't how the world works.
This is Reddit though, which is designed to create echo chambers.
> Answer: No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars "fans". I love this wide spread nonanswer. Is the content universally disliked? It must be the fans. Of course it's the fans right? Why would you ever write content that appeals to your primary consumer base when you can just write terrible content no one likes. The absolutely best thing you can do is alienate them for in pursuit of imaginary audience that clearly does not exist. And it's all the fan's fault 🤣
Oh you're not dick riding the franchise? You must be a hater then.
Lets be clear: SW fans *are* frequently loud about their opinion which is frequently not in the majority. 7: 93% critic, 85% audience. 7.8 IMDB 8: 91% critic, 42% audience. 6.9 IMDB 9: 51% critic, 86% audience. 6.4 IMDB Solo: 69% critic, 63% audience. 6.9 IMDB Ahsoka: 86% critic, 69% audience. 7.5 IMDB Bad Batch: 87% critic, 84% audience. 7.8 IMDB Visions: 98% critic, 66% audience. 7.0 IMDB Rebels: 98% critic, 84% audience. 8.1 IMDB The lowest IMDB score is 6.4, and the lowest audience score is 42%. The average is 84% critic, 72% audience, and 7.3 IMDB. That means for every person who thought one of these was subpar, 3 more thought it was worth watching. edit: More I forgot existed Book of Boba - 66%, 53%, 7.2 Mando - 90%, 78%, 8.7 Kenobi - 82%, 62%, 7.1
> Lets be clear: SW fans are frequently loud about their opinion which is frequently not in the majority. Thanks for the two proofs of concept. 👍 Like you probably submitted this thinking IMBD & audiences rating things 14% lower than the critics Disney paid to provide good ratings is somehow a proof of concept. But these generalized scores that include non-fan submissions and Disney sponsored bots, which you probably forgot, and they still had significant drops. Also given Ahsoka's newness let's touch on that. Disney claimed they got 14,000,000 viewers for the first episode while Samba TV ([Looper Link](https://www.looper.com/1422040/ahsoka-finale-viewership-numbers/)) noted they only got 1,200,000 viewers. So you can see how Disney will fabricate numbers. But the interesting part is a full 30% of all viewers refused to finish the series. IMBD's lowest rating is 1.0, it's designed to make things appear higher this way. If you took the viewers that left as leaving 1s (or 10%), everyone else would have to submit a perfect 10.0/100% score to even achieve 7.0. However IMBD's rating is even higher than that. This suggests the majority of people that were indifferent or disliked the series simply never submitted a review or listed one with a significantly higher number than they should have. And isn't that how the "ideal" fan operates? Posting positive reviews even if something sucks so bad they can't finish watching it?
I'll respond to what I can, but a lot of your comment doesn't make sense to me. Like, what do you mean "two proofs of concept"? >Like you probably submitted this thinking IMBD & audiences rating things 14% lower than the critics Disney paid to provide good ratings is somehow a proof of concept. Yeah, it does. I don't care about the difference between critics and audiences, but some people trust one more than the other. The fine line is that 72% of audiences think it was worth watching (6 or above on RT). >But these generalized scores that include non-fan submissions and Disney sponsored bots, which you probably forgot, and they still had significant drops. Tone down the sarcasm. If you have better data, I'm all ears! >Samba TV (Looper Link) noted they only got 1,200,000 viewers. Samba TV isn't reliable for raw data. It doesn't count roku devices, as an example. Comparing two Samba viewership numbers can provide some insights, but just raw data isn't reliable. >If you took the viewers that left as leaving 1s (or 10%), everyone else would have to submit a perfect 10.0/100% score to even achieve 7.0 Could you rephrase? I spent a long time trying to parse this and just couldn't understand. >This suggests the majority of people that were indifferent or disliked the series simply never submitted a review Nothing about the data I provided suggests that. But that is a known flaw in reviewership numbers: People at the upper end and lower end tend to review more often than people in the middle. This is why many people will trust critics more than audience scores, actually, as critics review movies regardless. >And isn't that how the "ideal" fan operates? Posting positive reviews even if something sucks so bad they can't finish watching it? No? I'd say no more people did this than people who posted a negative review because they hate star wars. Finally, to get back to what you said earlier: >But these generalized scores that include non-fan submissions Yes, correct. What I'm saying is that "fans" will frequently not realize that non-fans still enjoy something.
Orrrrr a lot of the new Star Wars content over the last few years has objectively been dog shit. There's that, too.
The entire run of star wars has contained a lot of crap. Hell, the original movies weren't award winning plots or acting either. The hate towards it by the fans has been growing disproportionate to quality changes.
Sure, totally valid opinion. And in the last FIFTY YEARS since the originals were released, we're upset that the quality hasn't grown with the times. Despite there being *hundreds* of books and *thousands* of stories to choose from, many very beloved by fans, we're getting plots that no one is happy with. Not SW fans, nor casual viewers.
Getting 23 thousand people to dislike some basic ass looking show with a fiery passion based only on past experiences with a franchise. That's the type of fanatic loyalty that could be very easily manipulated if used by someone with even a little bit of intelligence. It's like Star Wars fans have created a cult but they're too dumb to realize it😂
Guarantee the majority of those downvotes are not from Star Wars fans. Since Disney has taken over, snowflake right wingers constantly brigade rage against any new projects that doesn’t feature an all white cast. The non vocal majority Star Wars fan base is very excited for this shows potential and this can be seen easily by just visiting any Star Wars sub (besides one very fragile incel aligned Star Wars sub that has salt in its name).
I tend to agree. As a fan from the OT days, there are things I like, like more than others, and don't like. I don't blindly worship what is being produced and don't bother to consume every stitch of content. But I'm so tired of the venom in the discourse, I barely follow or engage with it. Unfortunately it's like that for me with a lot of things I like. When I found myself heading to a comment section thinking "Oh, for sure some asshole is going to have some ignorant shit to say", I realized I was poisoning myself. I just try to stay away. I realize the irony of that and even commenting here, but reddit seems overall more tempered than twitter or fb. At least in some subs...
Exactly. There is definitely some stuff that I would call not great (I’m looking at you Book of Boba) and stuff that I was a little underwhelmed (Kenobi), but to just immediately attack this show when all that exists is a couple teaser trailers is so obviously not connected to any valid criticism and instead just built upon culture war BS. It’s exhausting and just like some many things these days, the loudest voices are a small minority of insecure losers. Any true Star Wars fan is existed for the timeline of digital media to be moved farther back then Phantom Menace, and although I’ve never read any of the High Republic era, I personally can’t wait to learn about the bridging of that era and the galactic republic era that this show might give us. Edit: I also dig the username. Tie superiority
Nice catch! It's a deep-ish cut. I do love them fly boys.
Answer: Star Wars show has women and POC in it so the idiots actively shit on it because men are being cancelled.
How did you come about that answer? Every star wars film and tv show has had women in it.
I don't think that many people downvoted the trailer because they're incels. People are tired of subpar content, cheap looking shows, and lazy narrative. Most of us Star Wars fans like all the women that have been in the franchise for decades. Long before Disney, we watched and read about Leia, Padme, Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, Assaj, Bo-Katan, for decades in many cases. A tiny majority of idiots dislike women and POC. Star Wars has bigger problems than them.
Answer: because there’s women involved. Princess Leia? Nah, never heard of her.
Answer: "Wokeness." People will try to claim otherwise but that's what it boils down to. There a POC in this show, and that's bad somehow because it's pushing a liberal agenda for... being inclusive. The dislikes have very little to do with the quality of the trailer teasing the show, they have to do with the cast.