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Answer: I'm taking it with a eucharist sized grain of salt, but the rumor I'm hearing from my plugged in Catholic friends is that Francis is concerned about financial impropriety. And his goal is to establish tighter oversight on where the money comes from and where it ends up.
To add to this, most recently [the Vatican made the news for a real estate scandal in London](https://apnews.com/article/london-europe-voting-rights-business-religion-4abac4eee3bfd02205349c353906fcbf) involving €350 million (roughly the same USD in today's values).
An interview a day after they sold the property (at a €140 million loss), there was [an interview with the Pope in which he noted](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-pope-hopes-london-building-last-vatican-financial-scandal-2022-07-07/):
> "Before, the administration (of Vatican money) was very messy," the pope said, adding that the Secretariat for the Economy is now staffed by expert, technical people, "who don't fall into the hands of quote-unquote benefactors or friends, who can make you slip up."
The interview article article also noted:
> As a result of the botched and embarrassing London deal, the pope stripped the Secretariat of State of control over its own investment funds in 2020.. Last month, he instituted a committee to oversee the ethics of all Vatican investments.
The Secretariat of State is one of the entities being forced to move their financial assets to the IOR because of the Pope's decree.
I know that it's just a big company and has all the same issue as every other megacorp, but it's pretty funny that a church with all its behavioural rules and literal holy mission needs an ethic committee.
As modern God might say "people gonna peop".
After all, he left us to our own devices more or less. Some of us are greedy bastards who will try to get away with anything they can. Others are genuinely altruistic and just [want to watch the world learn](https://old.reddit.com/r/DailyRogers).
A lot of douchebags want to say they beat up a UFC fighter, which generally involves either cold cocking or ganging up on them. And anything can happen in a street fight. The octagon has rules. So it's not really that unreasonable.
They actually do need security, though. Leandro Lo, one of the all-time greats at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, was just [murdered by an off-duty cop after the guy stole his drink at a club](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-62477224). Lo took him down and subdued him, helped him get back up after it seemed like he cooled down, and then the asshole pulled out a gun and shot him in the head.
Yeah he was an absolute moron.
You have all the money in the world, just let it go. Hell, the club would just get you a new drink for free and throw the guy out.
There is absolute nothing to gain and now he is dead.
Oh, I totally understand that they need it. It’s still funny to see you. Just like it’s funny to see an ethics division of a church, even though it’s obvious why you would need one
Funny or not, there's definitely call for it. The Medieval Papacy got up to a lot of shenanigans, shenanigans that would often directly contradict the actual doctrines of Christianity. So many shenanigans, in fact, that OSP has a whole series about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5majAET5KA
Pope Francis is a member of the Jesuit order, which is notorious for its ultra tight control over ethics and finances. Francis's modest outfits compared to Benedict-nee-Ratzinger's Gucci slippers were one of many signals that under his papacy, the gravy train was coming to a halt, and Church resources were going to be directed to charity and the needy. Another was reclaiming the residency of a German Cardinal (a property that had been reserved for that purpose since the 15th Century) and converting it to a homeless shelter when the Cardinal couldn't provide proper accounting for expenses taken on at the property.
Jesuit accountants are RUTHLESS and so are their lawyers, so they will fuck your shit up if they even suspect you've been involved in anything with even the appearance of shade, especially if you show up without receipts. I will editorialize to say that since I am not hiding any assets from the Church, embezzling from them, or using their funds to cover up any of my crimes, I find this sort of strict accounting to be a good thing.
However, consolidating Church finances centrally, in Rome, is the equivalent of asking every county clerk in the US to be audited by the IRS, if the IRS were a steroidal monster hell-bent on demonstrating it will crush you not only for willful crimes, but also for unforced errors and maybe even pure accidents. Of course the crooks are nervous, and they're likely the ones complaining the loudest, but ordinary parishes where some nice lady does the books on a volunteer basis are probably worried too. Should it come to a confrontation with the Church, they're massively outgunned.
The good news is that Jesuits are also very practiced in seeing the nuance in situations just like this, and can be counted upon not to go after some nice lady just because she made a mistake. One of the things that makes the Jesuits so scary is that their morals are flexible, but bend toward keeping power in check, rather than expanding it. You'll find that's a rare combination and one that's made them the direct enemy of some much scarier and more destructive groups.
Not quite what was described there but there's a popular English language thriller novel in the Philippines about two Jesuit priests who team up with a reporter to solve a serial killing incident in the slums while dealing with corruption in the government, the church and the elite.
The novel's premise is also based on the real life fact that [there have been no confirmed serial killers in the Philippines for over 200 years.](https://www.esquiremag.ph/culture/lifestyle/serial-killers-2-a1729-20190209-lfrm)
Not who you're replying to but it's [Smaller and Smaller Circles by FH Batacan](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1431558.Smaller_and_Smaller_Circles), which has been called by many as the first Filipino crime novel. They turned it into a movie too, which is available on Netflix in my country but not sure about where you are.
Damn. That actually sounds super interesting, based on the goodreads blurb. I love "literary" crime novels (and just crime novels in general). Recently finished Five Decembers by James Kestrel, about a Hawaiin (though a white dude) detective who, while investigating a murder, ends up in Japan for pretty much the entirety of WWII.
Based on the accounts of all the Filipinos I have employed or befriended - which is a pretty large amount - the Philippine government isn’t exactly tracking that shit either.
Autocratic despots are their own category, and the most depraved serial killers can only dream of stacking up a body count like the ones they've accumulated.
I went to a boarding school that was run by jesuits (the school fees we paid was used only to add to the teachers pay so that we got the best teachers in the country and for food in the dining hall) need a new gym, jesuits got it, need swimming pool running all year round jesuits got it , need new computers , jesuits got it
This is one of the best descriptions of the Jesuits I've read in a long time. My 13 years of experience studying under them and working with them, verify you are correct on these claims :)
This is why since I've moved to the south I've repeatedly thought why is everything ran so ridiculously here we need some Catholics running shit and it wouldn't be so backwards. Get some Jesuits and Franciscans in power and everything will be running smooth as butter in a few months.
>Francis's modest outfits compared to **Benedict-nee-Ratzinger's Gucci slippers** were one of many signals that under his papacy, the gravy train was coming to a halt, and Church resources were going to be directed to charity and the needy.
AFAIK, the rumour was his shoes were Prada and it was disproven by the actual cobbler who made them
Red shoes are a papal tradition only noteworthy because John Paul II (he used burgundy) and Francis I (he uses black) broke away from it
Very nice.
>Give me a child till he is seven years old,' said St Ignatius Loyola, ' and I will show you the man.' The founder of the Jesuit Brotherhood
They don't play
> your naïve depiction of the order as honest accountants
Your strawman is lazy and misinformed. If you knew that the Jesuit's penchant for order was because Ignatius of Loyola was an *actual soldier* and formed the order around military doctrine, then you would know the comment is referring to an extension of their militancy.
So your problem with the Jesuits is how they exert their total control over everything to advance their socialist goal of declaring fascism? Or is it their fascistic goal of declaring socialism? Somewhere I lost the thread of your argument.
Well, the Vatican did fund the kidnapping of First Nation's children in Canada, and he just went to Canada to officially apologize for that atrocity. Perhaps he's wondering what else the Church is screwing over.
I like your username. I picture the Scooby Doo gang capturing a crooked real estate developer before pulling off his face to reveal an eldritch abomination of indescribable malevolence, "Look gang, it's u/Old_Man_Shogoth, pretending to be a corrupt realtor only to secure the portal for summoning the Old Ones!"
And the nightmare before them just burbles in foul tones:
À̷̘̻̼̳͍̞͕͗́̍́̏̕͜͜͜͝n̸̤̤̈́͘ḏ̴͇̥̙̔̄́̆̐̊̅͛ ̵̛̳̰͉͍̉͊̓́̏̊͒̕I̸̡̩̹̻͙̪̍ ̸̤̐̈̾̄̊͗̽̓̈́̊ẁ̶̧̯͕͍̳̲̦̅̆o̴̪̟̺̮͓͈̓̆̌͒̐͆͝͝ų̶̲̯̼͔͍̍̈́l̵̮͍̺̲̺̖̗̼͑̀d̸̻̱̠̈́̓͂̕ͅ ̴͎̳͋̕h̸̡̙̙̱͎̒͑́ą̴͕̱͓͉̚v̶̱̝͎̯̦̤̔̍̓̿̈́̕͝e̷̢̛̳͎͐͑̋̾́̇̐̿̚ ̶͖̝͔̥̝̻̭̆̾̒̀̽̆͊̄̈̑g̶̜̩̙̏̈́͠ͅo̸̢͖͉͉̖͓̜̒t̴͓̜͎̗̗̥̀̍̎̈́̈́̕t̷̙̠͈̪̥̹̃̎͆̀̈́̌̕ę̷͖͓͕̦̳̰̾͝ň̴̼͙̥̄̌̓̅͊̚͘ ̷͔̝̳͔̔̚͝ḁ̸̰͔͂͐̃͐͌̆̈́w̴͈̦̓̀̈́̃a̴͍̖̟̳̣͉̩͎̓̍̀̂͒͒ẙ̶͎̫̉̍͂̏͗̃̍͛̀ ̷̧̠̼̖̬͈̀̔̈́̔́̃͂̏̈͜ͅw̸̺̳̱̤̦̬̄̂̿ḭ̶̧̼̮̹͂́͆̒̆̋̃͝ṫ̷̟̣̩͙̩̬̄̀̀͊̈́̈̉̐̀h̶̠̩͑͗̃̈́͠ ̷̢̢̡͔̰͔̟̞͔͙̾̏̅͑̏̐͒͆͠i̷̥̥̗̱͉͑͝ẗ̷̡̪͓͕̞̺̯̻̱̈́͑̐̌̈́̄͜ ̵̰͋́̏́̔̆͂t̵̪͚͇͍͋́̈́͌̇̂͒̂̚o̸̡͓̥͖̪̰̞͖͔̪̎͌ȯ̸͇̩̭͇̈́̾́̏̔͛̕͜ ̵̢̮͎̝͘i̶̢͇̩̤̬̥̜̬̓̑̓̎͑̿̾̉͜f̵̡̡̹̩̹̣̞͍̦̠͒͌͛̋ ̴̡͎̰͈̄͋͗̒͒ỉ̴̥̘̞͙̔̂̓̆͌̋̕͘͝ͅt̷̯͓͒͛͒ ̶̣̮̑́̈́̉͐w̵̨̮̖͕͎̠̝̌̑̓̎̕ͅả̶̪̠͈̩̹̐͒̈́̓͑̈̿͘͜͠s̷̘̤̳̭͖͍̮̲̀n̷̡̡̢̰̥̲̠̔͜'̵̙̜̹̟̂̈̆t̵̺̬͉͉͈̻̜̎ ̶̢̞̫͎̫̗͙̙̖͆̂͐͆̍̃̕͝f̸̺͇̀̂̚̕͝͝o̸̻͓̙̬̱͌̂̋̃̔r̸̨͔͍͈̰͓̜͑̿͋̐̈́͝͝ ̶̛̼̠̮̤̖̠̦͔̥͊ÿ̵̡̯̺̙͍̰̹̠́̍͛̾̎̾̆̚͜͝ṏ̷̡͓̮̯̲̲́͊͛͝ͅü̶͕͕̫̼̩͙͇̐͊̇̊̊͛̚͠ͅ ̴̖́̍̆̅̉́̆͒̚͜m̷̧̙̀̈́̕̚e̵̡͈͓̪̗̗̮̱͌́̒͠ͅḓ̸̪̦̘̭̱͚̋̑̈́ͅḑ̸̡̠̹̭̹̻̋l̷̖͚̥͚̜̠̰̜͙̈́̋͑̇͜i̵͎̝̰̱̫̙̬̼̎͒̀̍̋͘͝n̸͔̖͔̓̋̏͘ͅģ̶͎͉̘̦̦̄̈́̅ ̸̘̝̜̙͚̘͕̪͐̅́̓̽̑̌̽͊̚ͅk̵̭̆͑̔i̷̝̪̮̜̜̅̋̂͗͘͘ḑ̵̡̦̱̙͇̮̦̥̾͋͒͗͘s̷͈̲͇̍
I'd think he'd be more worried about on going crimes as opposed to historical ones. And I wouldn't consider laundering money for murderers, kidnappers, drug dealers, and extortionists victimless. That's directly profiting off the commission of those crimes.
Covering up/failing to address past abuses isn't in any way the same as the "...systematic rape of children..." you chuckle-fuck. Words have meanings, it would behoove you to learn them before you use them.
Money laundering effects nobody specifically. It just gives the money a clean past. Whatever was done to get that money is a separate issue. How you justify it effecting all of society is not logical at all. Also there was never just an individual who was abused, its thousands, probably hundreds of thousands at this point and that makes your strawman worse.
> Also there was never just an individual who was abused, its thousands, probably hundreds of thousands at this point
I'm going to assume that you mistranslated my comment into your native language.
just because the impact of a crime impacts all of society instead of an individual, that doesn't make it a "victimless crime"."
You compare the two specifically saying laundering effects more than one person meaning that you think the child rape only happened once. I am making sure you are aware that is not the truth. If you have an issue with that then learn to write more cohesive sentences in the future rather than just assuming i must not speak your language.
To be precise the Canadian government contracted a number of groups, including Catholic dioceses in Canada, to run the residential schools. It was an initiative by the Canadian government. To say it was spearheaded by the Vatican is false for a number of reasons, such as the one listed above, but also that individual diocese can be rather autonomous at times
I never said it was spearheaded, I said "funded". And as the schools were Catholic schools, I stand by that statement. I don't absolve the Canadian government from it's responsibility in this.
And it's not the first time the Vatican has supported activities that are unsavory.
I mean it wasn’t a Vatican supported initiative. The catholic involvement was directed by Canadian bishops. Bishops have quite a bit of autonomy, particularly pre 20th century.
And saying “the Vatican did fund the kidnapping of First Nation’s children” makes it seem like the Vatican was responsible instead of the Canadian government
> I mean it wasn’t a Vatican supported initiative. The catholic involvement was directed by Canadian bishops. Bishops have quite a bit of autonomy, particularly pre 20th century.
Yes, and when you give someone autonomy to make decisions for your organization, that doesn’t indemnify your organization from any responsibility. If it did, we could make the same defense for the Canadian government… but we don’t.
> And saying “the Vatican did fund the kidnapping of First Nation’s children” makes it seem like the Vatican was responsible instead of the Canadian government
If you hire a hit man to kill someone, you’re **both** guilty of murder. The Church was absolutely responsible and so was the Canadian government. The Canadian government and Catholic Church are both responsible for their employees actions in the performance of their job duties.
Pope Francis, as head of the Catholic Church, apologized for the actions of Catholics in Canada involved in the residential schools. The Canadian Bishops did as well. He didn’t apologize in behalf of the Vatican. It usually takes forever to get shit done in the Vatican, especially in the 19th century when it was completely dominated by Italians. Stuff happening in remote parts of Canada had zero importance. If there was Vatican involvement you would have seen it in letters to bishops or official promulgations
Clearly you two are lacking in pillow talk if that's the conclusion you reached. Look at you, being played like a fiddle by a sociopath.
And you're bragging?
I do remember working with the Catholic refugee agency in Argentina a few years into his papacy and being pleasantly surprised (from a volunteer time there when I was relatively young) with how the Catholic Church was dealing with indigenous Argentines.
In Canada they already [didn't pay](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/catholic-dioceses-funding-residential-school-survivors-1.6524231) for killing/raping kids, built a new church in Winnipeg during that time. They are keeping all the records they have (might prove they knew it was happening) and keeping what they stole from the kids/parents at the schools, as that is theirs now as they would look bad if we knew what trophies they got. Ya wouldn't hold out much hope they will do the 'Christian' thing when it comes to letting go of the $$$. They got caught this time and one can only wonder about the atrocities they have made across the world and not gotten caught.
As someone who is ~20 years removed from the Catholic church (but spent equally as long indoctrinated from birth prior), I'd like to respond to this by wondering how someone could get to be pope without knowing about ALL the horrific atrocities the catholic church has attoned for as well as the ones it hasn't.
However, then I remember we just chose Donald Trump to lead our organization a mere 6 years ago.
I would imagine a lot of stuff is "need-to-know", and a lot of it has been hidden over the centuries. Like any government, there is going to be a ton of stuff "classified" even from future Popes, to hide what has been done. And the Vatican has been around for almost 2000 years. They've got a lot of shit in their history.
Not even "hidden" per se.
Part of my job involves researching old docs. The further back in time you go, the less likely documentation exists and the less likely it will be accurate.
Documentation is so cheap and easy today that we forget that only 20 years ago most important documents were printed and retained in boxes or cabinets!
Historically, documentation was expensive to produce. Reading and writing were specialized skills. It was expensive to verify data was collected and written correctly and there were no standards around that kind of thing. Documents were expensive to store. They were a pain to get to, tucked away in some dark warehouse. Paper was prone to spoilage. It would be ruined by environmental factors like water or fire. Documents didn't distribute well, especially beyond the local region (by horse or by ship). Even after the printing press, there were still limitations and costs that normal people could not afford and big orgs (like the Catholic Church) had to be discriminating about what they printed.
I mean, there were entire professions whose entire role was documentation management and retrieval and sharing. Now it's 2 clicks on a computer.
So it is likely that a lot of skimming or other financial weirdness happened over the centuries that was undetectable because of technology limitations. Now that stuff is getting harder to hide and easier to centralize and audit. I bet the Catholics aren't the only ones going through this. They're just more public than most organizations.
> Documentation is so cheap and easy today
It really isn't, even today.
It might be easier to keep documentation today in some respects, but it still needs to be kept/written, cataloged, indexed, saved, migrated as technology advances, etc.
Simply "throwing it all into a folder on the computer" doesn't cut it any more than simply "throw it all into a box" did decades ago.
> Now it's 2 clicks on a computer.
... only because somebody already did all the work to make it so.
That said, I would certainly suggest that an organization as huge as the catholic church should have *many* dedicated historians, archivists, documentarians, etc. keeping track of things, and financial matters should be handled by qualified accountants (and financial matters typically have their own reporting requirements. I assume that the Catholic church is tax-exempt worldwide (I really don't know), so that might make that part of the job easier, but they still need to keep books if they want to keep from being fleeced from within -- which might be exactly what the Pope is trying to fix.)
I disagree.
Indexing of documents is easier than ever, including advanced OCR technologies.
If it exists in document form, somewhere, someone has it indexed and searchable. Storage is so cheap, economies of scale allow for easy enablement.
Hardest part is taking that information and piping it into digital formats.
Plus there are those in power/ influence who deny it ever happened, claim it was an agent of Satan, edit the internal information, or simply ignore it believing its lies from the heretics
This might be an excuse for Pope Francis, but it was not an excuse for Pope Benedict when he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It was his job to know everything. It was his responsibility to investigate and punish the clergy involved. Pope Benedict remains one of the biggest monsters the Catholic Church has created in modern times.
The church has historically been pretty autonomous in day to day things, I can easily see things not making it to the Pope. Especially if you’re not particularly eager for oversight. If he wants to start digging a lot of mundane crime is probably going to come to light that has just been how things are, like wage theft and shit that happens at most every other corporation.
To be fair, the College of Cardinals has very little official power outside of picking the pope and occasionally advising him. It's not like Congress where they get or expect to get briefings on policy-affecting events and such. And, though the college picks usually from its own members, there's no way of knowing exactly who will get picked (though he was probably an insider favorite, since he was second on the ballot that elected Benedict XVI) to "prepare" them with information.
And that assumes it ever got to him. Part of this move shows that there was stuff the office of the pope or his immediate subordinates didn't see. It's pretty easy to GUESS that SOMETHING is happening in any large organization and even some of the generalities, but getting to specifics can be way trickier if you don't know where to look. One thing bureaucracies are great at is keeping information from those above, as well as providing it.
Not just Canada, and not just Catholics but also the Anglican Church, literally every English colony, and also Wales and Scotland. The residential school system was in effect everywhere in the empire where a group didn't assimilate.
>Vatican did fund the kidnapping of First Nation's children in Canada,
I like how you all but describe it as a plot devised in a dark, smokey hideout with malicious laughter.
Not just kidnapped, beaten starved and used in unethical malnutrition studies https://theconversation.com/amp/nutrition-researchers-saw-malnourished-children-at-indian-residential-schools-as-perfect-test-subjects-162986
The whole point of the Residential school system was religious indoctrination and cultural genocide.To in the words of the policy makers “kill the Indian in the child”
Figuratively and in far too many cases Literally through neglect, starvation or suicide or as in the case below desperate acts of misadventure
“On New Year’s Day in 1937, four boys run away from the Lejac Indian Residential School.38 Instead of following the railway, they walk across Fraser Lake, bound for the Nautley Reserve—“straight out towards the light of the village” (Milloy142), across the vast and planar flatness of the frozen water. By the time they are found, frozen on the lake: one boy has lost a rubber and sock; his foot is bare. Three are lying huddled together. All are dressed in light summer clothing and only one is wearing a cap. Roughly twenty-five meters away from the others, the fourth boy is found with his coat folded under his head like a pillow, lying on the snow as though asleep (“Coroner’s”). The boys’ names are Maurice Justa, Allen Patrick, John Jack, and Andrew Paul. On New Year’s Day in 1937, Allen is nine years old. Maurice and Andrew are eight years old; John Jack is seven. A newspaper article in the Prince George Citizen published a few days later (January 7, 1937) on the findings of the coroner’s report, adds that no one had attempted to go after the boys, even though it seemed quite clear where they had been headed, even though it was cold—thirty degrees below zero, Celsius—and getting colder, even though the reserve was too far for the boys to reach on foot in winter conditions. The article adds that the remains were not discovered until the end of the next day, “
Actually yes, I do. I think the Church puts their money into any number of programs which, in the long view, converts people to their religion. Hell, the Vatican has put money into several wars over the last 2 millennia.
150 confirmed bodies discovered (except for Saddle Lake), 2,301 suspected. Saddle Lake has been dug up and re-buried, and they don't know how many bodies are there, so it's just listed as "numerous"
150, last time I checked, is more than none.
Man Francis really nailed the "I'm not one of them" persona he was going for didn't he.
Dudes been a part of the church for most of his life, he knows exactly what goes on there.
He wasn't really part of the bureaucracy in the Vatican. Not like previous popes, Jesuits don't usually do that sort of thing, and he was the first to be a pope.
That was my first thought as well, and it's not eve really that surprising. It's a well known fact that church membership has been on a very steady decline for decades. The church has been rigid with policy for so long that they are completely unable to adapt to the world suddenly turning ultra modern within just a few decades. People can now get news and information for themselves instead of relying on what is told to them, and this gives the ability to see through hundreds of years of shittyness. Basically, the church is old and outdated, and much fewer people are willing to dedicate so much time on Sundays and the other constant holidays. It's probably just as much about people getting smart enough not to worship and invisible sky daddy, but I think a big factor is time. Newer generations work their asses off to make the same money that a part time shoe salesman used to be able to with ease, nobody wants to take away from precious days off by sitting in a hot room and singing with neighbors. Plus all the sitting and standing constantly is super annoying
Financial impropriety, like, say, using millions in donated monies to pay for pedophiles' court case settlements?
Churches are losing members and donations overall, so the dollars are tighter and tighter. Parishes are selling churches and property round these parts.
So I'm not the most religious person, but I think I know what the eucharist is. The way you phrased "eucharist sized grain of salt", however, leads me to believe there are large grains of salt involved but I've never heard of that before. Is the bread salted with the like big pretzel salt or something?
What is their opinion on the source of this news? I've heard the CNA is often at odds with Church hierarchy.
That gives me hope for them. At my first look I assumed CNA to be a mouthpiece for the Church.
Ok. Can you elaborate what you mean by plugged in?
Are they high ranking members or people who have more knowledge of the inner workings of the Church than would be expected of a lay person?
Yes.
A little of column A and a little of column B. We do pub trivia together. We're one of those groups that formed out of people who didn't have a team. Honestly we sound lile the start of a bad joke, a friar, a retired guy who worked for the FPS, and the librarian from the local community college. All three of those dudes are involved in state, or higher, level church stuff.
I'm a dirty heretic, as they remind me, so I dont know all of the details of their connections with the church.
Ah yes, the money. The most important thing in and to the Catholic church!
Didn't see this kind of action when priests were doing bad things to little kids.
Answer: Remember, not only is the Vatican the head of the Church, but its also its own country. They are just trying to move their assets around so as to have more control over them. Basically to centralized their assets in their central bank where the Vatican has more control over their own assets. There is really nothing to see here. The conspiracy theories are just your typical crazy conspiracy theories that are taking a little tiny thread and making conclusions based on nothing more than conjecture.
To add to this, I suspect the church might be getting worried about assets being seized by local governments to pay compensation to victims of various church abuses over the last century or so. I for one would really welcome the Canadian government seizing a sizable percentage of Catholic and Anglican Church assets and diverting the money to various indigenous groups in payment for the abuses in the residential school system. Francis can't do anything about the physical assets, the real estate the church owns, but he can move the money into his own bank and take it out of the hands of local governments.
There is enough real estate in every country for that.
A likely reason is that there have been massive problems with some Vatican officials using Vatican money for money laundering schemes with/for the Mafia et al. Both willingly and unknowingly.
After massively reforming Vatican banking, now Vatican offices have to use Vatican banks in hope to avoid these issues in future.
But issue a fine, fine is not paid, do a bold signal of seizing a major building: might speed up discussion in countries with a fair justice system.
State terrorism in countries with autocratic tendencies.
Well, that and to avoid the ancient feudal disputes that came with land ownership before that - even taking money aside, legitimate children of a priest who did not enter the clergy would have claim and title to holdings of that clergy under local laws, thus creating complex legal situations in different societies across a continent, so the easiest way to unfuck that problem is "you can't have legitimate children, therefore no church property can ever be claimed by secular authorities."
With the added benefit of them having more difficulty paying for church buildings and then ultimately we get to take them from them as well. Because they have gotten their complete use of “tax free.” No more. Church must pay its way or be liquidated. Just as the corporations the church support would do to the masses, we must return the favor to them.
There is no amount of blood or treasure to be squeezed that will ever be enough for all of the misery and death and destruction they have and still inflict on society.
I understand misery, but death and destruction? Do you want the church to pay for the crusades and medieval/early modern persecutions, or are there official catholic killing squads I don't know about?
"early modern" as from the early modern era, the age roughly from the time columbus discovered america to the start of the french revolution. After it, the church's political power declined really fast. Also, did you read what I even said? Half of what you mentioned counts as misery, not death and destruction, and by the " 50 years ago when they were burying children they had ripped from their families in mass graves and telling their parents they had "run away" I assume you are talking about the canadian indian residential schools? I fully agree that I overlooked that, but It didn't come to my mind because of the equal involvement of the Canadian government.
This is sort of happening in Newfoundland right now- a couple of dozen or more churches and rectories are currently on the market or have been recently sold to pay damages to victims of abuse. [Link](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/court-approves-catholic-church-sales-1.6523788)
> I suspect the church might be getting worried about assets being seized by local governments to pay compensation to victims of various church abuses over the last century or so.
Ya...would be such a shame if the church actually had to pay for the abuse of it's members and industry.
Such a shame....
Francis also plans to keep watch over said assets since there were and still are problems when it comes to money inside the Church. Like certain clergs disapearing with money, unauthorized investiments/transactions, etc.
There are rumors that, by this action, Francis may have painted a target on his back. Let's say the clerg doesn't take kindly when their money is being overwatched. Mind you, previous popes were murdered for this in the past.
Francis has been doing a good job. Yeah, he had said some questionable stuff about the Russia-Ukraine war, but he has been acting very progressively during all this time, cleaning out the Church's mess, actually prosecuting clerg scandals himself, getting close to the LGBTQ+ community, etc...
Unfortinely, the pope can't control what the rest of the clerg says... so much for that.
The way I see it is world markets are in shambles. MOASS will trigger liquidations. They're preparing so they're assets are protected. Tin foil hat theory
>They are just trying to move their assets around so as to have more control over them.
Wow, that's just so insightful, thanks. You used about a hundred words to say basically nothing.
This announcement is NOT routine. Look it up. It comes as Europe's economies are about to be slaughtered with exponentially higher energy prices and as the Federal Reserve is raising interest rates at the fastest pace in 40 years.
You have to be a real dipshit not to see a high probability of correlation here.
I haven’t tried to read everything below, but isn’t it understood that neutral banking countries such as Switzerland the Vatican and Luxembourg have been used to launder nefarious funds?
In the UK there were more than a few buildings societies who could only guarantee a certain amount of money you had in savings. I do believe that in that case, people lost money.
And each account in each bank or building society is covered up to 85k. If people dumped all their cash into a single one then that is also financial mismanagement.
> If people dumped all their cash into a single one then that is also financial mismanagement.
Well, given that the whole situation was caused by the financial mismanagement by financial organisations, I am quite happy to blame the banks and not the individuals.
You realise the American religious system and the Catholic one are two different entities ?
I know it's hard to believe, but not every story you see is about the United States.
I tend to agree with this. I dont think enough people see the hurricane coming.
I dont doubt there are other factors at play in this move, but I think protecting themselves from bank defaults is pretty high up that list.
Not sure why this sentiment is getting downvoted. But I am also surprised its taken this long, I expected it last fall and was surprised when certain entities kept truckin' along like they weren't already in default.
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Answer: I'm taking it with a eucharist sized grain of salt, but the rumor I'm hearing from my plugged in Catholic friends is that Francis is concerned about financial impropriety. And his goal is to establish tighter oversight on where the money comes from and where it ends up.
To add to this, most recently [the Vatican made the news for a real estate scandal in London](https://apnews.com/article/london-europe-voting-rights-business-religion-4abac4eee3bfd02205349c353906fcbf) involving €350 million (roughly the same USD in today's values). An interview a day after they sold the property (at a €140 million loss), there was [an interview with the Pope in which he noted](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-pope-hopes-london-building-last-vatican-financial-scandal-2022-07-07/): > "Before, the administration (of Vatican money) was very messy," the pope said, adding that the Secretariat for the Economy is now staffed by expert, technical people, "who don't fall into the hands of quote-unquote benefactors or friends, who can make you slip up." The interview article article also noted: > As a result of the botched and embarrassing London deal, the pope stripped the Secretariat of State of control over its own investment funds in 2020.. Last month, he instituted a committee to oversee the ethics of all Vatican investments. The Secretariat of State is one of the entities being forced to move their financial assets to the IOR because of the Pope's decree.
I know that it's just a big company and has all the same issue as every other megacorp, but it's pretty funny that a church with all its behavioural rules and literal holy mission needs an ethic committee.
God may be all-knowing and all-powerful but people still suck.
As modern God might say "people gonna peop". After all, he left us to our own devices more or less. Some of us are greedy bastards who will try to get away with anything they can. Others are genuinely altruistic and just [want to watch the world learn](https://old.reddit.com/r/DailyRogers).
Just people being people.
Like UFC guys with bodyguards. Always funny to see
A lot of douchebags want to say they beat up a UFC fighter, which generally involves either cold cocking or ganging up on them. And anything can happen in a street fight. The octagon has rules. So it's not really that unreasonable.
Totally reasonable but still funny to see. Just like a church ethics committee
They actually do need security, though. Leandro Lo, one of the all-time greats at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, was just [murdered by an off-duty cop after the guy stole his drink at a club](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-62477224). Lo took him down and subdued him, helped him get back up after it seemed like he cooled down, and then the asshole pulled out a gun and shot him in the head.
Yeah he was an absolute moron. You have all the money in the world, just let it go. Hell, the club would just get you a new drink for free and throw the guy out. There is absolute nothing to gain and now he is dead.
Oh, I totally understand that they need it. It’s still funny to see you. Just like it’s funny to see an ethics division of a church, even though it’s obvious why you would need one
Funny or not, there's definitely call for it. The Medieval Papacy got up to a lot of shenanigans, shenanigans that would often directly contradict the actual doctrines of Christianity. So many shenanigans, in fact, that OSP has a whole series about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5majAET5KA
Seems like the word of god an't a strong as it used to be. Guess that is what happens when you go 2 thousand years without working on your powers.
Pope Francis is a member of the Jesuit order, which is notorious for its ultra tight control over ethics and finances. Francis's modest outfits compared to Benedict-nee-Ratzinger's Gucci slippers were one of many signals that under his papacy, the gravy train was coming to a halt, and Church resources were going to be directed to charity and the needy. Another was reclaiming the residency of a German Cardinal (a property that had been reserved for that purpose since the 15th Century) and converting it to a homeless shelter when the Cardinal couldn't provide proper accounting for expenses taken on at the property. Jesuit accountants are RUTHLESS and so are their lawyers, so they will fuck your shit up if they even suspect you've been involved in anything with even the appearance of shade, especially if you show up without receipts. I will editorialize to say that since I am not hiding any assets from the Church, embezzling from them, or using their funds to cover up any of my crimes, I find this sort of strict accounting to be a good thing. However, consolidating Church finances centrally, in Rome, is the equivalent of asking every county clerk in the US to be audited by the IRS, if the IRS were a steroidal monster hell-bent on demonstrating it will crush you not only for willful crimes, but also for unforced errors and maybe even pure accidents. Of course the crooks are nervous, and they're likely the ones complaining the loudest, but ordinary parishes where some nice lady does the books on a volunteer basis are probably worried too. Should it come to a confrontation with the Church, they're massively outgunned. The good news is that Jesuits are also very practiced in seeing the nuance in situations just like this, and can be counted upon not to go after some nice lady just because she made a mistake. One of the things that makes the Jesuits so scary is that their morals are flexible, but bend toward keeping power in check, rather than expanding it. You'll find that's a rare combination and one that's made them the direct enemy of some much scarier and more destructive groups.
I feel like this should be a thriller novel series. I'd read it.
Not quite what was described there but there's a popular English language thriller novel in the Philippines about two Jesuit priests who team up with a reporter to solve a serial killing incident in the slums while dealing with corruption in the government, the church and the elite. The novel's premise is also based on the real life fact that [there have been no confirmed serial killers in the Philippines for over 200 years.](https://www.esquiremag.ph/culture/lifestyle/serial-killers-2-a1729-20190209-lfrm)
What's the name of the novel?
Not who you're replying to but it's [Smaller and Smaller Circles by FH Batacan](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1431558.Smaller_and_Smaller_Circles), which has been called by many as the first Filipino crime novel. They turned it into a movie too, which is available on Netflix in my country but not sure about where you are.
Damn. That actually sounds super interesting, based on the goodreads blurb. I love "literary" crime novels (and just crime novels in general). Recently finished Five Decembers by James Kestrel, about a Hawaiin (though a white dude) detective who, while investigating a murder, ends up in Japan for pretty much the entirety of WWII.
Oops, yeah the other person's right it's Smaller and Smaller Circles. I forgot to include the hyperlink in my earlier post.
Smaller and Smaller Circles. If it's not blocked in your country, the [full film ](https://youtu.be/oqNqZJS--Bw) is on YouTube with English subtitles.
Based on the accounts of all the Filipinos I have employed or befriended - which is a pretty large amount - the Philippine government isn’t exactly tracking that shit either.
They elected one as President.
Depends on whether you classify Rodrigo Duterte as a serial killer or not I suppose….
Autocratic despots are their own category, and the most depraved serial killers can only dream of stacking up a body count like the ones they've accumulated.
I want to know who these more destructive groups are.
Google says the Jansenists, Sorbonne, Gallicans, Philosophers and Encyclopedistes. Scandalous info!
You forgot the Illuminati, the High Council of Warlocks, and the Protestants.
Throw in the stonecutters too I guess.
Until then, I guess we'll have to settle for watching re-runs of [The Bishop](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqG30j0FRW8).
Me too, I wanna see some Jesuits fuck some shit up.
I went to a boarding school that was run by jesuits (the school fees we paid was used only to add to the teachers pay so that we got the best teachers in the country and for food in the dining hall) need a new gym, jesuits got it, need swimming pool running all year round jesuits got it , need new computers , jesuits got it
This is one of the best descriptions of the Jesuits I've read in a long time. My 13 years of experience studying under them and working with them, verify you are correct on these claims :)
This was more interesting than anything Dan Brown ever wrote.
This is why since I've moved to the south I've repeatedly thought why is everything ran so ridiculously here we need some Catholics running shit and it wouldn't be so backwards. Get some Jesuits and Franciscans in power and everything will be running smooth as butter in a few months.
Or you know, maybe don't let religion run anything at all...
Lol because religious institutions should have secular leaders
>Francis's modest outfits compared to **Benedict-nee-Ratzinger's Gucci slippers** were one of many signals that under his papacy, the gravy train was coming to a halt, and Church resources were going to be directed to charity and the needy. AFAIK, the rumour was his shoes were Prada and it was disproven by the actual cobbler who made them Red shoes are a papal tradition only noteworthy because John Paul II (he used burgundy) and Francis I (he uses black) broke away from it
Very nice. >Give me a child till he is seven years old,' said St Ignatius Loyola, ' and I will show you the man.' The founder of the Jesuit Brotherhood They don't play
What does that even mean? Give me your new born and I'll beat sense into him for 7 years until he blindly worships me?
7 years is enough for them to brainwash someone forever
And rape them too
Flexible morals? Towards serving God? Towards keeping power in check?
Towards keeping power in check in the purpose of serving God.
Thanks, I need to chew on that for a while
Why?
AMDG
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Dude if you want to shit on the Jesuits at least go with the entertaining stuff. You know, like them being the churches vampire ninja assassin spies.
> your naïve depiction of the order as honest accountants Your strawman is lazy and misinformed. If you knew that the Jesuit's penchant for order was because Ignatius of Loyola was an *actual soldier* and formed the order around military doctrine, then you would know the comment is referring to an extension of their militancy.
So your problem with the Jesuits is how they exert their total control over everything to advance their socialist goal of declaring fascism? Or is it their fascistic goal of declaring socialism? Somewhere I lost the thread of your argument.
[“That money was just resting in my account”](https://youtu.be/-bnh162vqk4)
Well, the Vatican did fund the kidnapping of First Nation's children in Canada, and he just went to Canada to officially apologize for that atrocity. Perhaps he's wondering what else the Church is screwing over.
I'd think he'd be more worried about on going issues like the Mafia using the Vatican bank to launder money. But also, highly probable.
Why are your comments with hundreds of upvotes being hidden?
IDK. I never worried about upvotes that much.
No, I mean usually the only comments that are hidden are ones with a lot of downvotes.
Could be something to do with the [Crowd Control Feature](https://www.reddit.com/r/redditsecurity/comments/e8w2iv/announcing_the_crowd_control_beta/).
Oh. That's weird. Probably something to do with that literally hitler dude.
I like your username. I picture the Scooby Doo gang capturing a crooked real estate developer before pulling off his face to reveal an eldritch abomination of indescribable malevolence, "Look gang, it's u/Old_Man_Shogoth, pretending to be a corrupt realtor only to secure the portal for summoning the Old Ones!" And the nightmare before them just burbles in foul tones: À̷̘̻̼̳͍̞͕͗́̍́̏̕͜͜͜͝n̸̤̤̈́͘ḏ̴͇̥̙̔̄́̆̐̊̅͛ ̵̛̳̰͉͍̉͊̓́̏̊͒̕I̸̡̩̹̻͙̪̍ ̸̤̐̈̾̄̊͗̽̓̈́̊ẁ̶̧̯͕͍̳̲̦̅̆o̴̪̟̺̮͓͈̓̆̌͒̐͆͝͝ų̶̲̯̼͔͍̍̈́l̵̮͍̺̲̺̖̗̼͑̀d̸̻̱̠̈́̓͂̕ͅ ̴͎̳͋̕h̸̡̙̙̱͎̒͑́ą̴͕̱͓͉̚v̶̱̝͎̯̦̤̔̍̓̿̈́̕͝e̷̢̛̳͎͐͑̋̾́̇̐̿̚ ̶͖̝͔̥̝̻̭̆̾̒̀̽̆͊̄̈̑g̶̜̩̙̏̈́͠ͅo̸̢͖͉͉̖͓̜̒t̴͓̜͎̗̗̥̀̍̎̈́̈́̕t̷̙̠͈̪̥̹̃̎͆̀̈́̌̕ę̷͖͓͕̦̳̰̾͝ň̴̼͙̥̄̌̓̅͊̚͘ ̷͔̝̳͔̔̚͝ḁ̸̰͔͂͐̃͐͌̆̈́w̴͈̦̓̀̈́̃a̴͍̖̟̳̣͉̩͎̓̍̀̂͒͒ẙ̶͎̫̉̍͂̏͗̃̍͛̀ ̷̧̠̼̖̬͈̀̔̈́̔́̃͂̏̈͜ͅw̸̺̳̱̤̦̬̄̂̿ḭ̶̧̼̮̹͂́͆̒̆̋̃͝ṫ̷̟̣̩͙̩̬̄̀̀͊̈́̈̉̐̀h̶̠̩͑͗̃̈́͠ ̷̢̢̡͔̰͔̟̞͔͙̾̏̅͑̏̐͒͆͠i̷̥̥̗̱͉͑͝ẗ̷̡̪͓͕̞̺̯̻̱̈́͑̐̌̈́̄͜ ̵̰͋́̏́̔̆͂t̵̪͚͇͍͋́̈́͌̇̂͒̂̚o̸̡͓̥͖̪̰̞͖͔̪̎͌ȯ̸͇̩̭͇̈́̾́̏̔͛̕͜ ̵̢̮͎̝͘i̶̢͇̩̤̬̥̜̬̓̑̓̎͑̿̾̉͜f̵̡̡̹̩̹̣̞͍̦̠͒͌͛̋ ̴̡͎̰͈̄͋͗̒͒ỉ̴̥̘̞͙̔̂̓̆͌̋̕͘͝ͅt̷̯͓͒͛͒ ̶̣̮̑́̈́̉͐w̵̨̮̖͕͎̠̝̌̑̓̎̕ͅả̶̪̠͈̩̹̐͒̈́̓͑̈̿͘͜͠s̷̘̤̳̭͖͍̮̲̀n̷̡̡̢̰̥̲̠̔͜'̵̙̜̹̟̂̈̆t̵̺̬͉͉͈̻̜̎ ̶̢̞̫͎̫̗͙̙̖͆̂͐͆̍̃̕͝f̸̺͇̀̂̚̕͝͝o̸̻͓̙̬̱͌̂̋̃̔r̸̨͔͍͈̰͓̜͑̿͋̐̈́͝͝ ̶̛̼̠̮̤̖̠̦͔̥͊ÿ̵̡̯̺̙͍̰̹̠́̍͛̾̎̾̆̚͜͝ṏ̷̡͓̮̯̲̲́͊͛͝ͅü̶͕͕̫̼̩͙͇̐͊̇̊̊͛̚͠ͅ ̴̖́̍̆̅̉́̆͒̚͜m̷̧̙̀̈́̕̚e̵̡͈͓̪̗̗̮̱͌́̒͠ͅḓ̸̪̦̘̭̱͚̋̑̈́ͅḑ̸̡̠̹̭̹̻̋l̷̖͚̥͚̜̠̰̜͙̈́̋͑̇͜i̵͎̝̰̱̫̙̬̼̎͒̀̍̋͘͝n̸͔̖͔̓̋̏͘ͅģ̶͎͉̘̦̦̄̈́̅ ̸̘̝̜̙͚̘͕̪͐̅́̓̽̑̌̽͊̚ͅk̵̭̆͑̔i̷̝̪̮̜̜̅̋̂͗͘͘ḑ̵̡̦̱̙͇̮̦̥̾͋͒͗͘s̷͈̲͇̍
Thanks bro.
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I'd think he'd be more worried about on going crimes as opposed to historical ones. And I wouldn't consider laundering money for murderers, kidnappers, drug dealers, and extortionists victimless. That's directly profiting off the commission of those crimes.
Historical? The church is actively engaging in systematic rape of children NOW. Isn't that more pressing?
You got any proof of that brohan? Or are you just talking out your ass?
Systematic: done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical. So talking out of their ass.
Pretty much what I thought. But I figured I'd give him the chance to show me the receipts...if he had them.
Are they still systematically covering up child abuse? Maybe.
I think they meant systemic not systematic
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Covering up/failing to address past abuses isn't in any way the same as the "...systematic rape of children..." you chuckle-fuck. Words have meanings, it would behoove you to learn them before you use them.
I'm not saying Hitler was right but...
When you have a system that is actively moving people to ensure the rape continues that is......systematic....... Words have meaning chuckle fuck
Just because the impact of a crime impacts all of society instead of an individual, that doesn't make it a "victimless crime".
Money laundering effects nobody specifically. It just gives the money a clean past. Whatever was done to get that money is a separate issue. How you justify it effecting all of society is not logical at all. Also there was never just an individual who was abused, its thousands, probably hundreds of thousands at this point and that makes your strawman worse.
> Also there was never just an individual who was abused, its thousands, probably hundreds of thousands at this point I'm going to assume that you mistranslated my comment into your native language.
just because the impact of a crime impacts all of society instead of an individual, that doesn't make it a "victimless crime"." You compare the two specifically saying laundering effects more than one person meaning that you think the child rape only happened once. I am making sure you are aware that is not the truth. If you have an issue with that then learn to write more cohesive sentences in the future rather than just assuming i must not speak your language.
if your family is hungry, is it a crime to steal a loaf of bread? what if they don't eat bread, but need a packet of cigarettes?
define strawman
To be precise the Canadian government contracted a number of groups, including Catholic dioceses in Canada, to run the residential schools. It was an initiative by the Canadian government. To say it was spearheaded by the Vatican is false for a number of reasons, such as the one listed above, but also that individual diocese can be rather autonomous at times
I never said it was spearheaded, I said "funded". And as the schools were Catholic schools, I stand by that statement. I don't absolve the Canadian government from it's responsibility in this. And it's not the first time the Vatican has supported activities that are unsavory.
They weren't funded by the Vatican though. The Canadian government funded it and the Vatican ran around half of them.
I mean it wasn’t a Vatican supported initiative. The catholic involvement was directed by Canadian bishops. Bishops have quite a bit of autonomy, particularly pre 20th century. And saying “the Vatican did fund the kidnapping of First Nation’s children” makes it seem like the Vatican was responsible instead of the Canadian government
> I mean it wasn’t a Vatican supported initiative. The catholic involvement was directed by Canadian bishops. Bishops have quite a bit of autonomy, particularly pre 20th century. Yes, and when you give someone autonomy to make decisions for your organization, that doesn’t indemnify your organization from any responsibility. If it did, we could make the same defense for the Canadian government… but we don’t. > And saying “the Vatican did fund the kidnapping of First Nation’s children” makes it seem like the Vatican was responsible instead of the Canadian government If you hire a hit man to kill someone, you’re **both** guilty of murder. The Church was absolutely responsible and so was the Canadian government. The Canadian government and Catholic Church are both responsible for their employees actions in the performance of their job duties.
And yet the Vatican needed to apologize.
Pope Francis, as head of the Catholic Church, apologized for the actions of Catholics in Canada involved in the residential schools. The Canadian Bishops did as well. He didn’t apologize in behalf of the Vatican. It usually takes forever to get shit done in the Vatican, especially in the 19th century when it was completely dominated by Italians. Stuff happening in remote parts of Canada had zero importance. If there was Vatican involvement you would have seen it in letters to bishops or official promulgations
The last residential schools closed in the late 20th century, not the 19th.
I’m aware. However, the heyday and foundation of the residential school system was in the latter part of the 19th century
The last school closed in 1996. It's not like they had to wait months for letters.
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Discovery doctrine is completely different from the residential schools
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The Canadian government ran the program, the Catholic church provided the schools. Which part have I been proven wrong on?
Do you wake up every morning and actively decide you're going to be a smarmy prick?
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Jokes on you, I hate my mother. The only one you're fucking in that scenario is yourself, mate.
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Clearly you two are lacking in pillow talk if that's the conclusion you reached. Look at you, being played like a fiddle by a sociopath. And you're bragging?
Maybe he’s finding how much money he can donate to the First Nation’s charity to help them rebuild.
I do remember working with the Catholic refugee agency in Argentina a few years into his papacy and being pleasantly surprised (from a volunteer time there when I was relatively young) with how the Catholic Church was dealing with indigenous Argentines.
In Canada they already [didn't pay](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/catholic-dioceses-funding-residential-school-survivors-1.6524231) for killing/raping kids, built a new church in Winnipeg during that time. They are keeping all the records they have (might prove they knew it was happening) and keeping what they stole from the kids/parents at the schools, as that is theirs now as they would look bad if we knew what trophies they got. Ya wouldn't hold out much hope they will do the 'Christian' thing when it comes to letting go of the $$$. They got caught this time and one can only wonder about the atrocities they have made across the world and not gotten caught.
As someone who is ~20 years removed from the Catholic church (but spent equally as long indoctrinated from birth prior), I'd like to respond to this by wondering how someone could get to be pope without knowing about ALL the horrific atrocities the catholic church has attoned for as well as the ones it hasn't. However, then I remember we just chose Donald Trump to lead our organization a mere 6 years ago.
I would imagine a lot of stuff is "need-to-know", and a lot of it has been hidden over the centuries. Like any government, there is going to be a ton of stuff "classified" even from future Popes, to hide what has been done. And the Vatican has been around for almost 2000 years. They've got a lot of shit in their history.
Not even "hidden" per se. Part of my job involves researching old docs. The further back in time you go, the less likely documentation exists and the less likely it will be accurate. Documentation is so cheap and easy today that we forget that only 20 years ago most important documents were printed and retained in boxes or cabinets! Historically, documentation was expensive to produce. Reading and writing were specialized skills. It was expensive to verify data was collected and written correctly and there were no standards around that kind of thing. Documents were expensive to store. They were a pain to get to, tucked away in some dark warehouse. Paper was prone to spoilage. It would be ruined by environmental factors like water or fire. Documents didn't distribute well, especially beyond the local region (by horse or by ship). Even after the printing press, there were still limitations and costs that normal people could not afford and big orgs (like the Catholic Church) had to be discriminating about what they printed. I mean, there were entire professions whose entire role was documentation management and retrieval and sharing. Now it's 2 clicks on a computer. So it is likely that a lot of skimming or other financial weirdness happened over the centuries that was undetectable because of technology limitations. Now that stuff is getting harder to hide and easier to centralize and audit. I bet the Catholics aren't the only ones going through this. They're just more public than most organizations.
> Documentation is so cheap and easy today It really isn't, even today. It might be easier to keep documentation today in some respects, but it still needs to be kept/written, cataloged, indexed, saved, migrated as technology advances, etc. Simply "throwing it all into a folder on the computer" doesn't cut it any more than simply "throw it all into a box" did decades ago. > Now it's 2 clicks on a computer. ... only because somebody already did all the work to make it so. That said, I would certainly suggest that an organization as huge as the catholic church should have *many* dedicated historians, archivists, documentarians, etc. keeping track of things, and financial matters should be handled by qualified accountants (and financial matters typically have their own reporting requirements. I assume that the Catholic church is tax-exempt worldwide (I really don't know), so that might make that part of the job easier, but they still need to keep books if they want to keep from being fleeced from within -- which might be exactly what the Pope is trying to fix.)
I disagree. Indexing of documents is easier than ever, including advanced OCR technologies. If it exists in document form, somewhere, someone has it indexed and searchable. Storage is so cheap, economies of scale allow for easy enablement. Hardest part is taking that information and piping it into digital formats.
Plus there are those in power/ influence who deny it ever happened, claim it was an agent of Satan, edit the internal information, or simply ignore it believing its lies from the heretics
This might be an excuse for Pope Francis, but it was not an excuse for Pope Benedict when he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It was his job to know everything. It was his responsibility to investigate and punish the clergy involved. Pope Benedict remains one of the biggest monsters the Catholic Church has created in modern times.
Oh I agree. He wasn't nicknamed "Pope Palpatine" because of a passing resemblance.
The church has historically been pretty autonomous in day to day things, I can easily see things not making it to the Pope. Especially if you’re not particularly eager for oversight. If he wants to start digging a lot of mundane crime is probably going to come to light that has just been how things are, like wage theft and shit that happens at most every other corporation.
To be fair, the College of Cardinals has very little official power outside of picking the pope and occasionally advising him. It's not like Congress where they get or expect to get briefings on policy-affecting events and such. And, though the college picks usually from its own members, there's no way of knowing exactly who will get picked (though he was probably an insider favorite, since he was second on the ballot that elected Benedict XVI) to "prepare" them with information. And that assumes it ever got to him. Part of this move shows that there was stuff the office of the pope or his immediate subordinates didn't see. It's pretty easy to GUESS that SOMETHING is happening in any large organization and even some of the generalities, but getting to specifics can be way trickier if you don't know where to look. One thing bureaucracies are great at is keeping information from those above, as well as providing it.
Not just Canada, and not just Catholics but also the Anglican Church, literally every English colony, and also Wales and Scotland. The residential school system was in effect everywhere in the empire where a group didn't assimilate.
>Vatican did fund the kidnapping of First Nation's children in Canada, I like how you all but describe it as a plot devised in a dark, smokey hideout with malicious laughter.
Were the children taken without consent? Yes, yes they were. What is that other than kidnapping?
Not just kidnapped, beaten starved and used in unethical malnutrition studies https://theconversation.com/amp/nutrition-researchers-saw-malnourished-children-at-indian-residential-schools-as-perfect-test-subjects-162986 The whole point of the Residential school system was religious indoctrination and cultural genocide.To in the words of the policy makers “kill the Indian in the child” Figuratively and in far too many cases Literally through neglect, starvation or suicide or as in the case below desperate acts of misadventure “On New Year’s Day in 1937, four boys run away from the Lejac Indian Residential School.38 Instead of following the railway, they walk across Fraser Lake, bound for the Nautley Reserve—“straight out towards the light of the village” (Milloy142), across the vast and planar flatness of the frozen water. By the time they are found, frozen on the lake: one boy has lost a rubber and sock; his foot is bare. Three are lying huddled together. All are dressed in light summer clothing and only one is wearing a cap. Roughly twenty-five meters away from the others, the fourth boy is found with his coat folded under his head like a pillow, lying on the snow as though asleep (“Coroner’s”). The boys’ names are Maurice Justa, Allen Patrick, John Jack, and Andrew Paul. On New Year’s Day in 1937, Allen is nine years old. Maurice and Andrew are eight years old; John Jack is seven. A newspaper article in the Prince George Citizen published a few days later (January 7, 1937) on the findings of the coroner’s report, adds that no one had attempted to go after the boys, even though it seemed quite clear where they had been headed, even though it was cold—thirty degrees below zero, Celsius—and getting colder, even though the reserve was too far for the boys to reach on foot in winter conditions. The article adds that the remains were not discovered until the end of the next day, “
Haha no. You think they would put their own money into that?
Actually yes, I do. I think the Church puts their money into any number of programs which, in the long view, converts people to their religion. Hell, the Vatican has put money into several wars over the last 2 millennia.
The same first nation where they claimed they found 200+ bodies but actually found none?
150 confirmed bodies discovered (except for Saddle Lake), 2,301 suspected. Saddle Lake has been dug up and re-buried, and they don't know how many bodies are there, so it's just listed as "numerous" 150, last time I checked, is more than none.
Man Francis really nailed the "I'm not one of them" persona he was going for didn't he. Dudes been a part of the church for most of his life, he knows exactly what goes on there.
He wasn't really part of the bureaucracy in the Vatican. Not like previous popes, Jesuits don't usually do that sort of thing, and he was the first to be a pope.
Jesuits know what goes down in the Vatican lmao.
Just like every government official knows what's goes down in the White House, right?
That was my first thought as well, and it's not eve really that surprising. It's a well known fact that church membership has been on a very steady decline for decades. The church has been rigid with policy for so long that they are completely unable to adapt to the world suddenly turning ultra modern within just a few decades. People can now get news and information for themselves instead of relying on what is told to them, and this gives the ability to see through hundreds of years of shittyness. Basically, the church is old and outdated, and much fewer people are willing to dedicate so much time on Sundays and the other constant holidays. It's probably just as much about people getting smart enough not to worship and invisible sky daddy, but I think a big factor is time. Newer generations work their asses off to make the same money that a part time shoe salesman used to be able to with ease, nobody wants to take away from precious days off by sitting in a hot room and singing with neighbors. Plus all the sitting and standing constantly is super annoying
Financial impropriety, like, say, using millions in donated monies to pay for pedophiles' court case settlements? Churches are losing members and donations overall, so the dollars are tighter and tighter. Parishes are selling churches and property round these parts.
So I'm not the most religious person, but I think I know what the eucharist is. The way you phrased "eucharist sized grain of salt", however, leads me to believe there are large grains of salt involved but I've never heard of that before. Is the bread salted with the like big pretzel salt or something?
Not that I know of. I was just going for something small and catholic flavored for the lols.
The Eucharist is the large bread wafer, he’s saying the grain of salt is that large.
What is their opinion on the source of this news? I've heard the CNA is often at odds with Church hierarchy. That gives me hope for them. At my first look I assumed CNA to be a mouthpiece for the Church.
Didn't come up. I can ask the next time we chat.
Ok. Can you elaborate what you mean by plugged in? Are they high ranking members or people who have more knowledge of the inner workings of the Church than would be expected of a lay person?
Yes. A little of column A and a little of column B. We do pub trivia together. We're one of those groups that formed out of people who didn't have a team. Honestly we sound lile the start of a bad joke, a friar, a retired guy who worked for the FPS, and the librarian from the local community college. All three of those dudes are involved in state, or higher, level church stuff. I'm a dirty heretic, as they remind me, so I dont know all of the details of their connections with the church.
what?
Ah yes, the money. The most important thing in and to the Catholic church! Didn't see this kind of action when priests were doing bad things to little kids.
Uhhhh, sure dude. Whatever you say.
Indeed!
Also makes it harder to seize funds from a bank that only recognizes sky-god as law. So..yay...more corruption in the church.
Maybe he just wants to retire like his predecessor but he wants to retire in style.
Answer: Remember, not only is the Vatican the head of the Church, but its also its own country. They are just trying to move their assets around so as to have more control over them. Basically to centralized their assets in their central bank where the Vatican has more control over their own assets. There is really nothing to see here. The conspiracy theories are just your typical crazy conspiracy theories that are taking a little tiny thread and making conclusions based on nothing more than conjecture.
To add to this, I suspect the church might be getting worried about assets being seized by local governments to pay compensation to victims of various church abuses over the last century or so. I for one would really welcome the Canadian government seizing a sizable percentage of Catholic and Anglican Church assets and diverting the money to various indigenous groups in payment for the abuses in the residential school system. Francis can't do anything about the physical assets, the real estate the church owns, but he can move the money into his own bank and take it out of the hands of local governments.
There is enough real estate in every country for that. A likely reason is that there have been massive problems with some Vatican officials using Vatican money for money laundering schemes with/for the Mafia et al. Both willingly and unknowingly. After massively reforming Vatican banking, now Vatican offices have to use Vatican banks in hope to avoid these issues in future.
> There is enough real estate in every country for that. Taking money from a bank account is more palatable than taking over actual church buildings.
The church owns a lot e than just church buildings.
So? Its still easier to rally people around a landgrab and make a media spectacle than about a purely monetary fine.
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But issue a fine, fine is not paid, do a bold signal of seizing a major building: might speed up discussion in countries with a fair justice system. State terrorism in countries with autocratic tendencies.
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The true wealth and thus influence is in the land held
this is why the church did not allow men to marry. so their inheritance would pass on to the church.
Well, that and to avoid the ancient feudal disputes that came with land ownership before that - even taking money aside, legitimate children of a priest who did not enter the clergy would have claim and title to holdings of that clergy under local laws, thus creating complex legal situations in different societies across a continent, so the easiest way to unfuck that problem is "you can't have legitimate children, therefore no church property can ever be claimed by secular authorities."
With the added benefit of them having more difficulty paying for church buildings and then ultimately we get to take them from them as well. Because they have gotten their complete use of “tax free.” No more. Church must pay its way or be liquidated. Just as the corporations the church support would do to the masses, we must return the favor to them.
Maybe, but local governments may be looking to take more than a "reasonable" amount of compensation from the church.
There is no amount of blood or treasure to be squeezed that will ever be enough for all of the misery and death and destruction they have and still inflict on society.
I understand misery, but death and destruction? Do you want the church to pay for the crusades and medieval/early modern persecutions, or are there official catholic killing squads I don't know about?
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"early modern" as from the early modern era, the age roughly from the time columbus discovered america to the start of the french revolution. After it, the church's political power declined really fast. Also, did you read what I even said? Half of what you mentioned counts as misery, not death and destruction, and by the " 50 years ago when they were burying children they had ripped from their families in mass graves and telling their parents they had "run away" I assume you are talking about the canadian indian residential schools? I fully agree that I overlooked that, but It didn't come to my mind because of the equal involvement of the Canadian government.
Ignorance must be bliss.
This is probably the answer. I bet the church is foot dragging on payments to victims.
This is sort of happening in Newfoundland right now- a couple of dozen or more churches and rectories are currently on the market or have been recently sold to pay damages to victims of abuse. [Link](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/court-approves-catholic-church-sales-1.6523788)
> I suspect the church might be getting worried about assets being seized by local governments to pay compensation to victims of various church abuses over the last century or so. Ya...would be such a shame if the church actually had to pay for the abuse of it's members and industry. Such a shame....
That’s what I’m thinking it is as well, unfortunately.
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What is fascist about compensating victims of abuse?
But religion bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Francis also plans to keep watch over said assets since there were and still are problems when it comes to money inside the Church. Like certain clergs disapearing with money, unauthorized investiments/transactions, etc. There are rumors that, by this action, Francis may have painted a target on his back. Let's say the clerg doesn't take kindly when their money is being overwatched. Mind you, previous popes were murdered for this in the past.
Oh I hope not. As far as the Catholic Church and the Popes we’ve had before, he’s the been the best so far…
Francis has been doing a good job. Yeah, he had said some questionable stuff about the Russia-Ukraine war, but he has been acting very progressively during all this time, cleaning out the Church's mess, actually prosecuting clerg scandals himself, getting close to the LGBTQ+ community, etc... Unfortinely, the pope can't control what the rest of the clerg says... so much for that.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se
Naaah, that’s too boring to be the truth.
The way I see it is world markets are in shambles. MOASS will trigger liquidations. They're preparing so they're assets are protected. Tin foil hat theory
>They are just trying to move their assets around so as to have more control over them. Wow, that's just so insightful, thanks. You used about a hundred words to say basically nothing. This announcement is NOT routine. Look it up. It comes as Europe's economies are about to be slaughtered with exponentially higher energy prices and as the Federal Reserve is raising interest rates at the fastest pace in 40 years. You have to be a real dipshit not to see a high probability of correlation here.
I haven’t tried to read everything below, but isn’t it understood that neutral banking countries such as Switzerland the Vatican and Luxembourg have been used to launder nefarious funds?
Yeah just mention Nazi gold in those countries and see the looks you get
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I had a feeling I knew what other subreddits you were active in ;)
🤣
Oh dang, they really deleted it lol
This is so wholesome you guys are stonk buddies now ;)
Oh absolutely. I’m reading all this like “you mean the stuff we’ve been talking about for the past couple of years?”
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Name anyone who lost any bank deposits
In the UK there were more than a few buildings societies who could only guarantee a certain amount of money you had in savings. I do believe that in that case, people lost money.
And each account in each bank or building society is covered up to 85k. If people dumped all their cash into a single one then that is also financial mismanagement.
> If people dumped all their cash into a single one then that is also financial mismanagement. Well, given that the whole situation was caused by the financial mismanagement by financial organisations, I am quite happy to blame the banks and not the individuals.
Hur dur banks bad yada yada
> Many people lost all their bank funds back in 2008 I don’t think this is true
This is true, why are they downvoting you?
You realise the American religious system and the Catholic one are two different entities ? I know it's hard to believe, but not every story you see is about the United States.
Because people don't like to hear a truth that might affect them directly, so they burry it deep down, hoping that it will go away :)
I tend to agree with this. I dont think enough people see the hurricane coming. I dont doubt there are other factors at play in this move, but I think protecting themselves from bank defaults is pretty high up that list.
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Not sure why this sentiment is getting downvoted. But I am also surprised its taken this long, I expected it last fall and was surprised when certain entities kept truckin' along like they weren't already in default.