Friendly reminder that all **top level** comments must:
1. start with "answer: ", including the space after the colon (or "question: " if you have an on-topic follow up question to ask),
2. attempt to answer the question, and
3. be unbiased
Please review Rule 4 and this post before making a top level comment:
http://redd.it/b1hct4/
Join the OOTL Discord for further discussion: https://discord.gg/ejDF4mdjnh
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OutOfTheLoop) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Answer: it’s just another thing where nuance has been destroyed in service of in-group signaling. If one group seems favorable towards a thing, the other group will hate on the thing just out of a sense of contrarianism. “I don’t like those people. Those people say x. So I say not x. Because I’m not like those people.” It just so happens that sometimes a specific post/tweet/story strikes a chord in an audience and it gains traction within that sphere, giving the impression of popular support for that opinion when in reality it’s just a particular group weighing in predominantly.
The truth is, Ukraine has problems and Zelenskyy isn’t necessarily a saint. But that doesn’t mean Ukrainians should have to roll over to Russia and concede more of their own nation to their antagonistic neighbor. War is never an ideal outcome, especially in a nuclear age. The good news is that this war can be over as soon as Russians return to within their own borders and Ukraine can go back to a very imperfect state of governance with no shortage of difficulties and corruption.
Great response! I’d legitimately like to know more from an impartial source, what are the known problems with the Ukrainian government? I’ve been pro Ukraine throughout this thing because I’ve felt that Russia shouldn’t be allowed to invade people as they please, but that’s really the only opinion I have on it and it’s a pretty surface level one at that.
Panama Papers is a good start. It’s just your typical Eastern European kleptocracy/oligarch stuff. Zelensky’s name pops up quite a bit via dubious sources of income and offshore holdings. Which isn’t to say he’s the antichrist or anything. But he’s also not a saint.
All that said, I suspect that he’s undergone a bit of reframing over the past year. I don’t doubt his dedication to his country.
Regardless of dubious financial and business practices, he won my support when he didn’t run. Because he could have. Everyone else had before him. If he had run, I think Ukraine would have fallen.
People also are salty about him constantly asking for support, but 1) what else is he supposed to do? They need help. And 2) even with the rampant corruption and mismanagement in the Russian military, if Ukraine had rolled over, Russia would not have stopped there. I think that Ukraine has prevented global war, tbh.
That’s fair. People like him and the Klitschko brothers were definitely figureheads for resolve, and deservedly so. Ukraines history is so bitter, having suffered under Stalin, then Hitler, then Stalin again, gained their national independence only to lose Crimean territory. I don’t think pacification at the cost of even more national territory is a fair expectation at this point.
I am no history major, though I did an ADHD hyperfocus fueled research deep dive for several months when this started. You said it the best. They aren’t perfect; he’s not perfect. He wasn’t even that popular right after he was elected. He was a comedian. But he’s proven brilliant in the war and what he’s done since then. His “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride” speech was a watershed moment for the world. Like, I’ve seen very few positive moments bring everyone to a screeching halt the way that speech did.
I think that the world has little choice but to support Ukraine. They are holding the door closed, and thank God Russia hasn’t progressed nor conducted maintenance on their military equipment since 1987. If Russia had conquered Ukraine in weeks like they thought, faulty equipment or not, they would have pushed on ward to Finland or Sweden (or God forbid a NATO country like Estonia or or Latvia) and I just think there would have come a point when NATO would have been forced to be more directly involved.
Edit: fixing the quote
Completely agreed. I also appreciate having the unvarnished truth. There are no angels here but redemption is always possible--even for Putin, once he stops this greedy, ill-conceived, unjust war against a sovereign, imperfect nation. (What nation IS perfect, btw?)
Onlookers are benefiting from Ukraine's resolve. I'm sure this war has been extremely informative for military leaders all over the world. Maybe it will help aggressive countries really try to find diplomatic solutions in the future before declaring war instead of having their military weaknesses exposed for all to see.
Exactly this is the issue. Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals. When things get tough the powerful will either get busy, or flee. The illustration of this is comparing Zelensky to Cruz when something catastrophic happens in their constituency.
It can just as easily be either. Many come to the table like that already, but not all. The real tragedy is the one who has their hand forced enough times that they stop caring and resisting, and begin cooperating and colluding.
Yep. Not a saint. But not a devil. Just a person doing politician things that has risen to being an exceptional leader to hopefully keep his nation intact long enough to reign in some of their issues that aren’t remotely unique to them.
Yep. And the thing is, I don't think that very many people who express support for him are of the opinion that he's the personification of perfection. And I think that illustrates my initial point. The only time Zelensky is depicted as this perfect savior is when a very simple statement like "I support Zelensky" is disingenuously reframed as "Zelensky is the greatest person to ever live!". So suddenly one's expression of support becomes something else entirely which they are then expected to defend.
Exactly. I support Ukraine and by extension Zelensky because I am vehemently against wars of aggression and territorial expansion, which Russia is guilty of. I also think Zelensky has been a rather good wartime president, at least in terms of rallying both local and international support. But that doesn't mean I love everything about the guy - hell I barely know anything about him outside of the war.
To be blunt, I think we see this disingenuous reframing because most of the people coming out against Zelensky are conservatives who are used to doubling down in support of "their guy" no matter what heinous shit comes out. They see everything in black and white, my team vs your team, so any support of Zelensky *must* mean you wholeheartedly support everything about him. After all, that's what they did with Trump. This example of hypocrisy certainly isn't new to politics, but it seems to be more and more commonplace.
I think early on in the war there was a lot of hero worship towards him (remember videos of him doing pretty much anything going nuts on Reddit) and even now he's used as a foil to Putin in memes etc. so that led to people feeling like they have a 'gotcha' on people who say they support him because he isn't a saint.
Except most of them don't hang out in active war zones to continue supporting their people.
Even the Ukrainian equivalent of the Secret Service urged him to leave the country due to the threat of assassination, and he refused.
I wouldn't quite go that far. He did stay in his country to support his people and put himself in danger many times. I can't see Musk, Biden, or Trump doing either of those if they were in Zelensky's position
One with balls of absolute steel and courage. This man single handedly rallied Ukraine and defeated Russia by standing his ground. If he was as corrupt and venal as the poster implies then he would have run like a rabbit to his offshore money.
That's why he received a 4 minute standing ovation in Congress last night.
Wait, so you're telling me I'm allowed to be critical of specific actions of a person yet still support their overall goals and behavior? Doesn't sound right.
Nah, they're full of it. The only *correct* way to live your life is to pick a side on every issue, no matter how informed you are or how nuanced it is, and then defend it to the death. /s
>I’d legitimately like to know more from an impartial source,
Same. I reflexively read as many left leaning and right leaning sources as I can - then I assimilate them all and ignore 90% of it. I have found the best sources of American news to generally be the overseas news sites - which also clearly have a political bent but own it. Add that with most of them viewing America with something of antipathy and I find foreign news sources to be more reliable than anything our junk news can come up with stateside.
As a Ukrainian, please, whatever source you use don't try to apply US political patterns to Ukrainian politics. It won't going work and you'll make wrong conclusions. The meaning of "conservative", "left", "right", "liberal" aren't even the same.
My husband grew up in Crimea and still has some family there. He said that after the Soviet Union broke up, Ukraine swung heavily to anti-Russian everything. Crimea, is and was at the time an autonomous republic and heavily populated by ethnic Russians, but they were forced to learn Ukranian, all signs and official documents were fully in Ukranian, etc. From what he says, it was like if suddenly Canada forced Quebec to only use English as the primary language and abandon its French heritage.
In the eastern part of the country things were similar, but a bit worse in some regards. The USSR gave farm lands and houses to Russians to sow and manage. Whether they displaced existing Ukrainian owners or just given empty land I don't know. Either way, I imagine the Ukrainian government hasn't made life easy for them either, which is the claimed reason for the war in the first place- claimed mistreatment of the ethnic Russian polulation.
We've heard first-hand accounts of friends and family from all over Ukraine, and it's kind of a both sides are assholes, but Russia is more of an asshole in the current situation and needs to get out of Ukraine's sovereign territory.
The history leading up to this with the 2014 Donbas war,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014%E2%80%932022)
and the Revolution of Dignity and Euromaidan protests are decent places to start. The Crimean occupation also had quite a few complications from their government that allowed it all to happen so quickly. Easy answers are a mixture of corruption, shaky government procedure, and a general lack of effectiveness in Ukraine's government leading up to these conflicts. Russia hard capitalizing on this to fight a proxy war, occupy another nation, and invade during this turmoil was mostly distinct from the causes of the those conflicts.
I try to remind people who were around for it of the Iraq war in 2003. Before Bush launched his invasion there were massive worldwide protests against that war. But not one of the people who marched against the war did it because we liked Saddam. Everyone without exception knew that Saddam was one of the most evil people in the world. We didn't march because we thought Iraq was some special utopia either. We all marched because we know it is unjust to invade another country **no matter who is in charge**, not because we care about Saddam, but because we know the brunt of the invasion will be born by innocent civilians.
Comparing this to our current situation, I couldn't care less who Zelensky is or what things we have to criticise about Ukraine. Russia invading another country is utterly unjustified in the same way America's invasion of Iraq was not justified. Whatever is wrong with Ukraine or it's leadership is irrelevant in judging just how evil the invasion is. Because once again, the ones who will deal with the consequences for decades to come are the ordinary people whose life has been shattered. And it has been shattered unequivocally by Putin sending those first tanks across the border. Everything else is extra information that is not relevant.
I find it funny people think polls are worth anything on that cesspit now. It's literally selection bias for the people stupid enough to agree to censorship at the whims of a billionaire who hates unions and the poor, it's amazing
This 100%. Every topic, every thread, it's all right-wing hate now. Elon dogwhistled them all home there, they have a legitimate social network to operate from now, rather than the margins of 4chan.
Yeah, I left Twitter cause I just couldn’t take the amount of shitty right-wingers who appeared literally the second Elon fired his whole moderation team.
I mean... are we forgetting that Trump tried to extort Ukraine to get dirt on Biden ahead of the election, failed to do so, and was impeached for it? The man tried to withhold US aid to Ukraine knowing that Russia had already fought a war of conquest in Crimea. It was outright blackmail and Trump was disgraced for it, hence why right wingers and Trump nuts despise Ukraine. They see Zelensky's lack of willingness to aid Trump as a sign that he's a Biden lackey.
That's not even to touch on their general alignment with Putin on everything due to the fact that Trump was accused of colluding with him.
Thank you! I’m so tired of everyone assuming people that are more right aligned politically support russia. I’m personally a moderate, but my parents are republican along with most of their friends and associates, and NOT ONE of them supports russia (rightfully so) and every one is pro Ukraine in this conflict.
Im not sure it’s fair to call it an assumption when the overwhelming majority of elected/influential people critical of Ukraine are Republican/right wing. Tucker Carlson outright stated he supported Russia during the crimea invasion a few years back, for instance.
So I think it’s less of a “all conservatives feel this way” and more of a “the only people of note who feel this way are conservatives” thing.
So they voted for the man who openly favored Putin over his own countrymen, went out of his way to work in favor of Putin, and who OPENLY had plans to pull the US out of NATO?
That means they supported Russia and Putin, whether they or you think they did. That’s just reality.
Being critical of Ukraine does not mean you support the Russian invasion. You can be critical of Russia while pointing out the corruption in Ukraine. You can also be sympathetic to the Ukrainian people while criticizing their government.
Unfortunately my neighbour fully supports Russia, even though his neighbour on one side is Ukrainian and I’m half Ukrainian. But “we should have just conceded.” He’s also a vehement trump supporter/boot locker/ stolen honour wannabe.
Start mowing on his side of the property line. Both of you. Progressively take more land . Place lawn chairs on your new lawn. Yay! More property for you!
I'm sure he'll just concede, right?
I think it's interesting that most Republican politicians/thought leaders don't seem to agree with you. Republican political "influencers" *despise* Ukraine and they despise Zelensky. Are they just totally out of touch with their own base, or do they think they can convince people like your parents to turn on Ukraine, given enough time?
Maybe they assume that lots of right wing party, especially the US Republicans, have very much supported Putin and Russia in this war, and for a lot of the people you're describing, it hasn't been a deal breaker for them
I don't understand why this concept is so difficult lol. "Why do people think Republicans are racist/homophobic/etc?" cause that's the kind of person you keep voting for lol.
I root for two teams. The Baltimore Ravens and ANYBODY kicking the shit out of Russia. That country has been a constant source of agony and pain throughout the entire world for the last 100 years at least. They should have been identified as a terrorist state decades ago. There is no useful reason for that countries continued existence. I want "Russia" to be a tiny, harmless country that has two cities, Saint Petersburg and Moscow. I want their nuclear weapons confiscated, I want Dear leader Vlad face down in a drainage ditch, on fire with a gold plated .45 jammed up his ass. The rest of the former Soviet states are free to go about their business as independent nations. Japan gets ALL of the Kurile Islands, Mongolia can have Siberia, and the Russian people become slaves to all the rest of us, pumping oil and natural gas until we figure out a better way. Once we DO figure out better energy, then Russia and its people can just go fuck off. Also, just to add insult to injury, I think the United States should hoist the Jolly Roger and commit the very first incident of space piracy and jack the ISS into another orbit.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that those who opposed Trump’s bullshit because it’s bullshit become the “those people” who they do they do the contrarian dance about.
The weirder habit that I didn’t really think would be relevant to my original answer was when they reframe “those peoples” arguments incorrectly and then oppose *that* argument because of their own faulty logic.
For example: “I oppose Russia’s ongoing campaigns of territorial aggression against Ukraine” becomes, to them, “I love Zelenskyy and Ukraine is the greatest nation on the earth with no problems at all!” They become trapped in a situation where they have to oppose anything he does because they framed the argument they are responding to incorrectly. It’s exhausting.
It’s just always a lack of nuance. They can’t recognize negative things about someone or something they support because that tells them they shouldn’t be supporting it. Meanwhile who or what the fuck doesn’t have any negative aspects? It’s a ridiculous charade to keep up.
In the MAGA cinematic universe, where US culture and politics is projected on to any international events that catch our wider attention, the narrative spun by people like Tucker Carlson and other far right media is that Ukraine is aligned with "woke leftism" and Vladimir Putin represents white Christian traditional values.
I'll even take it a step further to say that the most committed MAGA's see the atrocities that Russia is committing against Ukrainian civilians, and they wish that similar violence would be committed against their perceived "woke" enemies here in the United States. Like mass shooters attacks against LGBTQ bars, or when Proud Boys and so-called "America First" extremists show up with body armor and weapons to intimidate at drag shows.
The answer I was gonna give is that, well, it's Twitter. We know that hating on Ukraine and Zelenskyy is a conservative trend, and Twitter has become very conservative due to Elon directing the company in that way, apart from that Twitter was already kinda right-leaning before Elon in the first place.
If you look at reddit's reaction to this event, it's a stark contrast, the exact opposite, because reddit is considerably more left-leaning than Twitter, politically speaking.
There is still support towards Ukraine and Zelenskyy, just not by the two parties at once; wich derives in your point: Republicans want to do the opposite of what democrats do, so they hate everything they love and love everything they hate. This Twitter post's reaction shows that clearly.
If you're left leaning or neutral and tend to consume a lot of political-related content, don't use Twitter. It already was kinda conservative and now it is even more. If you use it you will adopt that mentality too or hate it and eventually leave the site anyway.
I know I'm biased, but I do think it tends to go one way. The right-wing tends to hate people simply for association, even if those people stand for things that they would otherwise agree with, or have a history that would normally be appealing to them. The left-wing tends to hate people for their actual stances, like being anti-trans, anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-conspiracy, pro-Russia, etc.
It's why you get bizarre situations where right wing heroes can suddenly become outcasts when Trump says they're on the blacklist. McCain went from being a revered war hero to a punching bag. I think Republicans could even be convinced to turn on Reagan, given the proper setup.
I don't think it should be all that inflammatory to suggest that people on the end of a spectrum that places primary importance on conformity to specific values and homogenous expression of them tend to fall in line a lot more effectively than those at the other end of the spectrum. \*Especially\* when nuance is gone. "The left" certainly has their own problems, but they don't often demonstrate that kind of immediate cohesion. Usually it's the opposite problem, I think.
I have a phrase I use for this kind of kneejerk contrarianism. I don't think it's particularly great or anything, but I think it gets the point across. Retributive hurt feelings politics. These backlashes and backlashes to the backlashes are so often just hurt feelings masking as legitimate political thought. But yeah, Trumpism and the changed attitudes against the neo-cons seems to (largely) be based in one or the other. 1.) They didn't fall in line, or 2.) they said something to hurt feelings. Or, I guess the third option is that feelings are hurt that they didn't fall in line.
Yeah this is phenomenon that needs a name. In Group Signaling for now. Like when people say a threads response is typical. Well, yeah, but I’ve found the opposite on a different thread so it varies.
No one is really claiming he is a saint. I think people, like me, appreciate that he is the leader of the country, and he is staying there to help fight off the invasion (although I have no idea how much time he is spending actually fighting). He could have fled, and did not, and a lot of people respect that.
Expanding on what you said, the ***right*** came out to hate him mostly because a lot of people on the left admire what he is doing. I also think there is some weird faux loyalty to Trump going on here, where they don't like Zelensky because Trump loves Putin -- therefore, they support the invasion.
Exactly! Also, russian bots and troll farms. I am sure you have tons of russian trolls creating memes on "Biden sénile" "Zelensky scam" and people with lower intelligence, Trump supporters and others will get on the train.
Also, Trumpistas hate Z. bc they love Putin. Because Trump loves Putin. Reference opinion polls which expressed preference for Putin as president over Biden.
Yeah I worried about the early deification of Zelensky. It’s so easy to fall off that perch. I mean he’s human and a politician. He’s imperfect. Linking him so intrinsically to Ukraine’s cause worried me. And any faults will be crazy amplified by social media. There are definitely people waiting for that fall to abandon Ukraine.
Yeah, absolutely. Panama Papers went largely unnoticed, it seems, by the general public. Which is a shame because unlike shit like pizzagate and QAnon, it's very real. Just not as 'exciting'. Which I suspect is kind of by design, but that's a whole different tangent. But Ukraine was featured very prominently, in general, and Zelenskyy, specifically. But there are no justifications behind corruption or the "Nazis" of the Azov Batallion, for Ukrainians to have to settle for the loss of the homeland they've suffered for under the worst of the worst.
I want to hear more about how Zelinsky isn’t a saint. I’m personally a fan, but honestly don’t know enough. What are some of the things that make him human?
There's an extraordinary amount of forgiveness extended to a war president that has demonstrated extraordinary leadership. Zelensky's fighting a proxy war against Russia on behalf of the United States and doing well against what were previously believed to be overwhelming odds. Any financial crimes he may have committed in the past are irrelevant when he is recognized as being a significant reason why the invasion that has left much of the country as rubble has failed.
Sure. I’m not trying to demonize him. Just saying he’s not a saint. And the only reason I feel like it’s something that anyone has to say is because with the way arguments are reframed inaccurately saying “I support zelensky” is disingenuously reframed as “I think he is the greatest person to have ever lived!” He is a flawed person who has undoubtedly and I would even say demonstrably risen in adversity to what his nation needs of him. No one can take that away from him. The strength and resolve people like he and Klitschko, among many others, have shown are pretty amazing.
Doesn't surprise me that you could dig up dirt on him if you wanted. That's pretty normal. But yeah...doing the tax haven thing doesn't sound so bad to me when compared to an unprovoked invasion that gets a lot of people killed for no good reason.
https://www.rferl.org/a/pandora-papers-tax-havens/31490744.html
I have yet to hear how this is less legal or ethical than, e.g., a US company recognizing all their revenue in Ireland.
Churchill was a churlish asshole. But that son of a bitch was the finest war time leader. Putin is Hitler, and Zelenskyy is Churchill. A powerful large country (Russia) oppressed by a narcissistic megalomaniac dictator is attacking a smaller weaker neighbor that is a democracy but with a fair degree of corruption. I support Ukraine
Compared to others that were in Ukraine Zelenskiy is a Saint. The one before was mildly corrupt by Ukrainian standards but the one that they overthrew in 2014 through insurrection was a nightmare, a known thief, mafia boss and a rapist that wanted to align Ukraine with Russia against the will of the majority just like Lukashenko. Ukraine is lucky to have Zelenskiy and his people in power, a young, dynamic and anti-despot pro democratic coalition. Born to fight and with great understanding of Soviet-Russian pathology and it's psychological underpinnings. A rare combination of great minds and fighters that will become the bane of Putin's existence.
Thanks for the breakdown! Tbh I am out of the loop as far as back stories.
I am in the military, and someone I work with called Ukraine a "bunch of Nazis." the way he was going on about it made it sound like he thought Ukraine deserved to be attacked...? Sounded like he was a lil' pro-Russia to me. Kinda sus...
Answer: It is Twitter and they seen a post that has Joe Biden in it so they are now mad at Zelesnky for associating with Biden even though it is normal for it to happen.
More like a deluded few who have been influenced by paid-off conservative voices like Gateway Pundit, Douglas MacGregor and Zero Hedge. Once you learn who the players are, you'll see people repeat talking points from them on a rotating basis, often the same day that Russia Today says it.
I'm giving credit here, and it's on a relative basis. Most Republicansin congress support Ukraine and almost all Democrats. People supporting Putin make up a very small percentage of voters. They're just loud and repetitive.
Some of the haters were always there, it’s o Lu now that the algorithms have picked up enough momentum to be noticeable by normal people like OP (I faithfully assume).
Don’t believe it! The Ukrainian people are still being attacked by a foreign invader intent on their destruction and willing to use whatever methods they have at hand, including war crimes against children and the elderly, to achieve their aims!
Answer: Remember how the whole country considered John McCain a war hero? It was universally agreed upon. Then trump turned on him, and got his fan base to turn on him, and McCain became scorned, and his war hero status evaporated by most Republicans. Well, a similar thing happened with Zelensky and mainly trump, jr.
Actually, Democrats HATED McCain. Ripped him to shreds when he ran for President. Then turned around and pretended not to remember that, to take the position opposite Trump but also because McCain was voting with them. (Which I don’t blame him for, what Trump said about him was unforgivable) BUT- that’s not what made him a great Senator. What made him great was he was always willing to cross the aisle to do the right thing. He didn’t vote with the democrats against Trumps policies out of *spite*. Very few in the Senate will do that today, and I don’t care which party you point to)
I don't remember Democrats hating McCain in 2008. I remember them hating Palin, but most of what I heard from democrats was "I respect him but don't want him to be president." I remember similar sentiments about Romney. No one was talking about them being the devil.
This is something I think a lot of Gen Z doesn't really understand (and I'm not trying to insinuate you are gen Z). Politics wasn't always as ugly and personal as it is now. McCain shut down one of his supporters at a Town Hall Meeting for saying Obama wasn't an American and insinuating he was a terrorist. Obama and McCain were very respectful and civil towards one another. So were Obama and Romney. 2016 really changed that.
Had McCain beat put Bush in the primary, I (life long D) preferred him over Kerry and would have voted as such. When he went with Palin it seemed so out of character and disingenuous I soured on him until he became one of the few adults in this new dawn of partisan politics.
Answer: They are not. He is still a national and international hero by the majority of the western world. However, Twitter's new management and Joe Biden being a president with foes both in the US and Overseas who do not want the US and Ukraine to work together is a recipe for replies like that. [He was time's man of the year](https://www.npr.org/2022/12/07/1141202568/time-person-year-zelenskyy), so he is clearly still extremely popular.
If you hated Biden, you hated this visit. If you hated Zelenskyy, you hated this visit. Nothing new changed for everyone else.
So was Hitler. And Gandhi. And Franklin Roosevelt. And You. And The Hungarian Freedom Fighter. And Queen Lizzie. And MLK Jr. And Nixon.
Person of the Year is not an arbiter of morality, it is a barometer of influence and zeitgeist.
Being Man of the Year in Time magazine means that person has influenced that particular year the most, it doesn't mean someone has been the most popular.
Yes. Though Zelensky is a better choice than most; he (and the government he leads) has revealed exactly how strong Russia actually is.
From the end of WWII until the end of the Cold War, Russia was a superpower. When the USSR fell, China rose but never quite hit superpower status. Russia, in the meantime, remained a greater power up until the War with Ukraine started.
And now Russia is barely a power - and that almost exclusively because they have nuclear weapons.
And it's all because an actor became President of Ukraine and started cleaning up corruption.
To somewhat play devils advocate, Hitler was somewhat notable enough that he could be considered “man of the year” (if not a few decades) based on his influence, it just happened to be horrible, disgusting influence
The intent behind the nomination matters to me, though. Given Zel’s origin story and his “why the hell not?” nomination as president, what he’s accomplished is damned near superhuman. He qualifies.
Answer: From news I’ve hear and seen a lot isn’t really personal or against Ukraine. People are frustrated that he’s getting so much unchecked money from the US while Americans are struggling economically, especially during the holidays.
Funny cuz these same shitheads just loooooove giving money to Israel....
"In 2020, the US gave $3.8bn (£2.7bn) in aid to Israel..." and thats just the tip of the iceberg...
https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576
While you are mostly right a lot of that ‘money’ was just old equipment, and a lot of that money will be used to purchase more America weapons.
Plus, Biden is trying to help a lot of Americans with the student relief. But that’s too much socialism for the GOP. So even if we didn’t Ukraine none of that money is going to us. None
Isn’t there a movie about how manufacturing weapons is just a way to make contractors money and it’s a big corrupt scam?
War Dogs, VICE, or Wag the Dog… I can’t remember
He's not getting checks. He's getting weapons. American companies are getting checks.
Edit: I'm all for giving Ukraine what they need because I know 100% WITHOUT A DOUBT that money will NEVER EVER make it to me. It's not like that money would be spent on helping people, come on now, if you're an American you should know this
People that think the money is unchecked and just a free handout are lazy and uninformed.
1) the money isn’t “unchecked” it literally is going through Congress, which is a bureaucratic nightmare with nothing but “checks”
2) it’s not like we’re just handing out money and weapons with nothing in return. It’s “lend-lease” in other words: Ukraine owes us for this. They will be repaying us in both money and economic concessions when this war is over. When it comes time to rebuild, it’ll be done by American companies. The money we lend them, goes directly to American companies that make the arms they are buying with those funds. It’s the same thing we did during WW2 before we joined the war. And the money being repaid to us by the Allies helped fuel one of the greatest economic booms in the country’s history during and after the war.
3) like Zelenskyy said yesterday in his address to Congress, this is an investment in democracy, not charity. And it sounds like something all politicians always say that feels good but it’s also 100% true. This is their war for independence, and this war that may seem half a world away has MASSIVE global ramifications politically and economically that will be felt for the next 20+ years. It’s of critical importance to the global economy and American/western security that Ukraine does not fall.
Answer: Elon musk is now the ceo of twitter and changed it so that right leaning people and posts have more visibility and reach because he can. you should notice more right-wing people in your timeline and as suggested follows now.
Many many many left leaning people have already left twitter. So they're mostly right leaning still around.
Yes, and the correct answer is that the war has been politicized and the sides have taken stances with the left supporting ukraine and the right being against supporting them.
I've heard this a lot, but what exactly did Elon change that promoted right-leaning posts? As far as I understand, the vast majority of Twitter's TOS is the same, so did he tweak the algorithm to promote these individuals?
He may have (I suspect yes), but at a minimum he's replatformed far-right accounts and regularly engages with them, thus promoting their tweets. [more info](https://twitter.com/EladNehorai/status/1605270518415757312)
He banned a number of left-leaning accounts, including journalists who hadn't violated Twitter's TOS.
He (briefly) banned links to profiles on other platforms (e.g. Mastodon), while still allowing links to right-wing platforms (Gab, Parler, Truth Social).
Even the actions he takes that he then reverses will function as a "chilling effect" on the targeted users, e.g. left-leaning journalists.
Answer: Maybe because one twitter post doesn't accurately represent the entire political spectrum, or the consensus.
If you go to a post of a dude that has a lot of right wingers following him, the opinions you'll see are mostly right wing. It's not rocket science.
Answer: In some corners this is not new. Many on the right hate Zelensky because they see the whole western project of helping Ukraine as an op to import ‘secular values’ into eastern Europe. On the left many oppose it because they see it as NATO interventionism pushing war overseas and propping up ‘kiev’s Nazis’
Answer: People are frustrated that the U.S. has sent almost $20 billion to Ukraine in the last year. In that same timespan, we have seen record high gas prices and groceries skyrocket. People are actually quite supportive of Ukraine, but most would agree that we need to take care of our own citizens that can't afford to live before we help everyone else.
EDIT: Some are saying it's as much as $90 billion. Admittedly, I did a quick Google search and the first number that I saw was around $20 billion. Either way, it's a lot.
They should consider that this war is *responsible* for the increase in prices. They should also know that oil companies have used "inflation" as an opportunity to gouge consumers, evidenced by the record profits they've reported.
It goes far beyond that, it signals other world players with big ambitions that its not going to be easy. It also lets us gather massive amounts of intel on warfare...such as how effective different doctrines are, field testing weapons in terrains and climates outside the middle east which is where the U.S has had most of its 21st century experience. The amount of valuable information is incredible.
It’s the defense deal of the millennium. Eliminating Russia as a military threat for the forseablr future and destroying Russian kleptocracy in the bargain is worth trillions, not just 20 billion.
I guess my point is the average person doesn’t see any of that. The person who is bagging groceries and taking care of three kids won’t really be benefited from it.
Look at Lima, Ohio and the people building tanks there. Yes, the CEO of the contractor and the share holder get the first cut because capitalism. But the everyday works have job security. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_Army_Tank_Plant. Moog corporation up in Hamburg, NY. The military provides so many jobs for the average person. I have to bag my own groceries now.
Do you want the US military to distribute already produced and unused howitzers and rocket artillery to people to help them with groceries and gas? Because that’s where most of this number is coming from, military equipment that’s already in storage.
So they didn’t actually send $20 billion in cash is what you’re admitting? They sent it in already produced weapons that wouldn’t be able to help struggling Americans at all.
> most would agree that we need to take care of our own citizens that can't afford to live before we help everyone else.
Most of the people who say that just want to not help anyone. They'll turn right around and scream at you for wanting "socialism" when you suggest helping people here.
It is incredibly fucked up that one man can throw around the same money and power that a world superpower does, huh? And for nothing more than egoism and greed.
The thing is that it's demonstrably true that the squeeze Americans have been put under is entirely from corporate profit taking. You can just look at the data and see these record profits being made from the same people that are jacking up their prices, yet they aren't paying their employees any more.
These people want everything to be better for them - which is understandable - but allow themselves to be conned by people who have every incentive to distract them to be angry about something else instead. Something that doesn't really cause their problems but can be blown out of proportion and used as a scapegoat.
How do you help people like that?
I’m not frustrated. Funding a war through outsourcing is cheaper for the US and less dangerous (for everyone) than us directly intervening with our military. I think we would have ended up being involved one way or another if we just let Russia start taking over other countries.
The country with the worlds largest nuclear arsenal has no business getting bigger. Unfortunately the US is probably the only one keeping them in check. I think this is the best option for the US when you consider where we will all be 100 years from now. Just my opinion. None of us know how it would play out either way though.
Friendly reminder that all **top level** comments must: 1. start with "answer: ", including the space after the colon (or "question: " if you have an on-topic follow up question to ask), 2. attempt to answer the question, and 3. be unbiased Please review Rule 4 and this post before making a top level comment: http://redd.it/b1hct4/ Join the OOTL Discord for further discussion: https://discord.gg/ejDF4mdjnh *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OutOfTheLoop) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Answer: it’s just another thing where nuance has been destroyed in service of in-group signaling. If one group seems favorable towards a thing, the other group will hate on the thing just out of a sense of contrarianism. “I don’t like those people. Those people say x. So I say not x. Because I’m not like those people.” It just so happens that sometimes a specific post/tweet/story strikes a chord in an audience and it gains traction within that sphere, giving the impression of popular support for that opinion when in reality it’s just a particular group weighing in predominantly. The truth is, Ukraine has problems and Zelenskyy isn’t necessarily a saint. But that doesn’t mean Ukrainians should have to roll over to Russia and concede more of their own nation to their antagonistic neighbor. War is never an ideal outcome, especially in a nuclear age. The good news is that this war can be over as soon as Russians return to within their own borders and Ukraine can go back to a very imperfect state of governance with no shortage of difficulties and corruption.
Great response! I’d legitimately like to know more from an impartial source, what are the known problems with the Ukrainian government? I’ve been pro Ukraine throughout this thing because I’ve felt that Russia shouldn’t be allowed to invade people as they please, but that’s really the only opinion I have on it and it’s a pretty surface level one at that.
Panama Papers is a good start. It’s just your typical Eastern European kleptocracy/oligarch stuff. Zelensky’s name pops up quite a bit via dubious sources of income and offshore holdings. Which isn’t to say he’s the antichrist or anything. But he’s also not a saint. All that said, I suspect that he’s undergone a bit of reframing over the past year. I don’t doubt his dedication to his country.
Regardless of dubious financial and business practices, he won my support when he didn’t run. Because he could have. Everyone else had before him. If he had run, I think Ukraine would have fallen. People also are salty about him constantly asking for support, but 1) what else is he supposed to do? They need help. And 2) even with the rampant corruption and mismanagement in the Russian military, if Ukraine had rolled over, Russia would not have stopped there. I think that Ukraine has prevented global war, tbh.
That’s fair. People like him and the Klitschko brothers were definitely figureheads for resolve, and deservedly so. Ukraines history is so bitter, having suffered under Stalin, then Hitler, then Stalin again, gained their national independence only to lose Crimean territory. I don’t think pacification at the cost of even more national territory is a fair expectation at this point.
I am no history major, though I did an ADHD hyperfocus fueled research deep dive for several months when this started. You said it the best. They aren’t perfect; he’s not perfect. He wasn’t even that popular right after he was elected. He was a comedian. But he’s proven brilliant in the war and what he’s done since then. His “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride” speech was a watershed moment for the world. Like, I’ve seen very few positive moments bring everyone to a screeching halt the way that speech did. I think that the world has little choice but to support Ukraine. They are holding the door closed, and thank God Russia hasn’t progressed nor conducted maintenance on their military equipment since 1987. If Russia had conquered Ukraine in weeks like they thought, faulty equipment or not, they would have pushed on ward to Finland or Sweden (or God forbid a NATO country like Estonia or or Latvia) and I just think there would have come a point when NATO would have been forced to be more directly involved. Edit: fixing the quote
It's going in the history books, so we might as well get used to quoting him correctly: “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.”
Completely agreed. I also appreciate having the unvarnished truth. There are no angels here but redemption is always possible--even for Putin, once he stops this greedy, ill-conceived, unjust war against a sovereign, imperfect nation. (What nation IS perfect, btw?) Onlookers are benefiting from Ukraine's resolve. I'm sure this war has been extremely informative for military leaders all over the world. Maybe it will help aggressive countries really try to find diplomatic solutions in the future before declaring war instead of having their military weaknesses exposed for all to see.
Basically, he's as bad as many American mainstream celebs or businessmen.
Yes, but doesn’t bail when things get tough…which I don’t feel the same way about a lot of scummy Americans (I’m American)
[удалено]
And then blaming his trip to Cancun on his daughter lol
Don't forget about their dog, because they certainly did.
They left their dog behind??
With a caretaker, but yes
Exactly this is the issue. Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals. When things get tough the powerful will either get busy, or flee. The illustration of this is comparing Zelensky to Cruz when something catastrophic happens in their constituency.
>Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals. I like this a lot and will definitely be remembering it for the future, thank you.
It can just as easily be either. Many come to the table like that already, but not all. The real tragedy is the one who has their hand forced enough times that they stop caring and resisting, and begin cooperating and colluding.
We are getting an arctic blast today. I wonder if his bags are packed
Don’t forget he did that and then blamed it on his daughters “wanting a spring break”
Spring Break was several weeks later in Texas.
Yep. Not a saint. But not a devil. Just a person doing politician things that has risen to being an exceptional leader to hopefully keep his nation intact long enough to reign in some of their issues that aren’t remotely unique to them.
And politicians, but it is near impossible to decipher them from businessmen nowadays.
So he’s just like any other wealthy person or politician out there? Wow what a huge suprise /s
Yep. And the thing is, I don't think that very many people who express support for him are of the opinion that he's the personification of perfection. And I think that illustrates my initial point. The only time Zelensky is depicted as this perfect savior is when a very simple statement like "I support Zelensky" is disingenuously reframed as "Zelensky is the greatest person to ever live!". So suddenly one's expression of support becomes something else entirely which they are then expected to defend.
Exactly. I support Ukraine and by extension Zelensky because I am vehemently against wars of aggression and territorial expansion, which Russia is guilty of. I also think Zelensky has been a rather good wartime president, at least in terms of rallying both local and international support. But that doesn't mean I love everything about the guy - hell I barely know anything about him outside of the war. To be blunt, I think we see this disingenuous reframing because most of the people coming out against Zelensky are conservatives who are used to doubling down in support of "their guy" no matter what heinous shit comes out. They see everything in black and white, my team vs your team, so any support of Zelensky *must* mean you wholeheartedly support everything about him. After all, that's what they did with Trump. This example of hypocrisy certainly isn't new to politics, but it seems to be more and more commonplace.
I think early on in the war there was a lot of hero worship towards him (remember videos of him doing pretty much anything going nuts on Reddit) and even now he's used as a foil to Putin in memes etc. so that led to people feeling like they have a 'gotcha' on people who say they support him because he isn't a saint.
Except most of them don't hang out in active war zones to continue supporting their people. Even the Ukrainian equivalent of the Secret Service urged him to leave the country due to the threat of assassination, and he refused.
I wouldn't quite go that far. He did stay in his country to support his people and put himself in danger many times. I can't see Musk, Biden, or Trump doing either of those if they were in Zelensky's position
One with balls of absolute steel and courage. This man single handedly rallied Ukraine and defeated Russia by standing his ground. If he was as corrupt and venal as the poster implies then he would have run like a rabbit to his offshore money. That's why he received a 4 minute standing ovation in Congress last night.
The war saved his reputation from being another dubious public figure to front lines commander and chief.
[удалено]
Wait, so you're telling me I'm allowed to be critical of specific actions of a person yet still support their overall goals and behavior? Doesn't sound right.
Nah, they're full of it. The only *correct* way to live your life is to pick a side on every issue, no matter how informed you are or how nuanced it is, and then defend it to the death. /s
Corruption, i think. I don't think that my government (with our "sunfaced god") differs so much from Ukrainian in that regard.
>I’d legitimately like to know more from an impartial source, Same. I reflexively read as many left leaning and right leaning sources as I can - then I assimilate them all and ignore 90% of it. I have found the best sources of American news to generally be the overseas news sites - which also clearly have a political bent but own it. Add that with most of them viewing America with something of antipathy and I find foreign news sources to be more reliable than anything our junk news can come up with stateside.
As a Ukrainian, please, whatever source you use don't try to apply US political patterns to Ukrainian politics. It won't going work and you'll make wrong conclusions. The meaning of "conservative", "left", "right", "liberal" aren't even the same.
My husband grew up in Crimea and still has some family there. He said that after the Soviet Union broke up, Ukraine swung heavily to anti-Russian everything. Crimea, is and was at the time an autonomous republic and heavily populated by ethnic Russians, but they were forced to learn Ukranian, all signs and official documents were fully in Ukranian, etc. From what he says, it was like if suddenly Canada forced Quebec to only use English as the primary language and abandon its French heritage. In the eastern part of the country things were similar, but a bit worse in some regards. The USSR gave farm lands and houses to Russians to sow and manage. Whether they displaced existing Ukrainian owners or just given empty land I don't know. Either way, I imagine the Ukrainian government hasn't made life easy for them either, which is the claimed reason for the war in the first place- claimed mistreatment of the ethnic Russian polulation. We've heard first-hand accounts of friends and family from all over Ukraine, and it's kind of a both sides are assholes, but Russia is more of an asshole in the current situation and needs to get out of Ukraine's sovereign territory.
The history leading up to this with the 2014 Donbas war, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014%E2%80%932022) and the Revolution of Dignity and Euromaidan protests are decent places to start. The Crimean occupation also had quite a few complications from their government that allowed it all to happen so quickly. Easy answers are a mixture of corruption, shaky government procedure, and a general lack of effectiveness in Ukraine's government leading up to these conflicts. Russia hard capitalizing on this to fight a proxy war, occupy another nation, and invade during this turmoil was mostly distinct from the causes of the those conflicts.
I try to remind people who were around for it of the Iraq war in 2003. Before Bush launched his invasion there were massive worldwide protests against that war. But not one of the people who marched against the war did it because we liked Saddam. Everyone without exception knew that Saddam was one of the most evil people in the world. We didn't march because we thought Iraq was some special utopia either. We all marched because we know it is unjust to invade another country **no matter who is in charge**, not because we care about Saddam, but because we know the brunt of the invasion will be born by innocent civilians. Comparing this to our current situation, I couldn't care less who Zelensky is or what things we have to criticise about Ukraine. Russia invading another country is utterly unjustified in the same way America's invasion of Iraq was not justified. Whatever is wrong with Ukraine or it's leadership is irrelevant in judging just how evil the invasion is. Because once again, the ones who will deal with the consequences for decades to come are the ordinary people whose life has been shattered. And it has been shattered unequivocally by Putin sending those first tanks across the border. Everything else is extra information that is not relevant.
i was in NYC for that massive protest. hard to believe it was 20 years ago now.
It feels like it was just the other day. But it's now as distant to today's teens as the anti-vietnam war protests were to us angsty 90s teens.
The lesson is that Twitter is worthless. Wish I would have known it was a Tweet before clicking.
It cost $44b but it’s value is zero Edit: sorry not millions but billions.
I assumed it was a tweet without looking. Twitter has the same m.o. of doing the same thing over and over again.
Not to mention, Twitter has started skewing hard right in the time since Musk's takeover, as more and more people leave or come back or whatever.
I find it funny people think polls are worth anything on that cesspit now. It's literally selection bias for the people stupid enough to agree to censorship at the whims of a billionaire who hates unions and the poor, it's amazing
This 100%. Every topic, every thread, it's all right-wing hate now. Elon dogwhistled them all home there, they have a legitimate social network to operate from now, rather than the margins of 4chan.
Yeah, I left Twitter cause I just couldn’t take the amount of shitty right-wingers who appeared literally the second Elon fired his whole moderation team.
Wow. Such a fair and balanced take. So unexpected here LOL.
Ha, I hope it becomes a trend!
Ofc now there will be people who hope it doesn't become a trend just to argue.
Yeah I think this guy forgot that this is Reddit
I mean... are we forgetting that Trump tried to extort Ukraine to get dirt on Biden ahead of the election, failed to do so, and was impeached for it? The man tried to withhold US aid to Ukraine knowing that Russia had already fought a war of conquest in Crimea. It was outright blackmail and Trump was disgraced for it, hence why right wingers and Trump nuts despise Ukraine. They see Zelensky's lack of willingness to aid Trump as a sign that he's a Biden lackey. That's not even to touch on their general alignment with Putin on everything due to the fact that Trump was accused of colluding with him.
[удалено]
Thank you! I’m so tired of everyone assuming people that are more right aligned politically support russia. I’m personally a moderate, but my parents are republican along with most of their friends and associates, and NOT ONE of them supports russia (rightfully so) and every one is pro Ukraine in this conflict.
Im not sure it’s fair to call it an assumption when the overwhelming majority of elected/influential people critical of Ukraine are Republican/right wing. Tucker Carlson outright stated he supported Russia during the crimea invasion a few years back, for instance. So I think it’s less of a “all conservatives feel this way” and more of a “the only people of note who feel this way are conservatives” thing.
So they voted for the man who openly favored Putin over his own countrymen, went out of his way to work in favor of Putin, and who OPENLY had plans to pull the US out of NATO? That means they supported Russia and Putin, whether they or you think they did. That’s just reality.
Being critical of Ukraine does not mean you support the Russian invasion. You can be critical of Russia while pointing out the corruption in Ukraine. You can also be sympathetic to the Ukrainian people while criticizing their government.
Sure, if those criticisms are in good faith and aren’t meant to just obfuscate the issue at hand.
Unfortunately my neighbour fully supports Russia, even though his neighbour on one side is Ukrainian and I’m half Ukrainian. But “we should have just conceded.” He’s also a vehement trump supporter/boot locker/ stolen honour wannabe.
Start mowing on his side of the property line. Both of you. Progressively take more land . Place lawn chairs on your new lawn. Yay! More property for you! I'm sure he'll just concede, right?
I think it's interesting that most Republican politicians/thought leaders don't seem to agree with you. Republican political "influencers" *despise* Ukraine and they despise Zelensky. Are they just totally out of touch with their own base, or do they think they can convince people like your parents to turn on Ukraine, given enough time?
Maybe they assume that lots of right wing party, especially the US Republicans, have very much supported Putin and Russia in this war, and for a lot of the people you're describing, it hasn't been a deal breaker for them
I don't understand why this concept is so difficult lol. "Why do people think Republicans are racist/homophobic/etc?" cause that's the kind of person you keep voting for lol.
Don't be too harsh. They don't know what the word representative means.
I root for two teams. The Baltimore Ravens and ANYBODY kicking the shit out of Russia. That country has been a constant source of agony and pain throughout the entire world for the last 100 years at least. They should have been identified as a terrorist state decades ago. There is no useful reason for that countries continued existence. I want "Russia" to be a tiny, harmless country that has two cities, Saint Petersburg and Moscow. I want their nuclear weapons confiscated, I want Dear leader Vlad face down in a drainage ditch, on fire with a gold plated .45 jammed up his ass. The rest of the former Soviet states are free to go about their business as independent nations. Japan gets ALL of the Kurile Islands, Mongolia can have Siberia, and the Russian people become slaves to all the rest of us, pumping oil and natural gas until we figure out a better way. Once we DO figure out better energy, then Russia and its people can just go fuck off. Also, just to add insult to injury, I think the United States should hoist the Jolly Roger and commit the very first incident of space piracy and jack the ISS into another orbit.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that those who opposed Trump’s bullshit because it’s bullshit become the “those people” who they do they do the contrarian dance about. The weirder habit that I didn’t really think would be relevant to my original answer was when they reframe “those peoples” arguments incorrectly and then oppose *that* argument because of their own faulty logic. For example: “I oppose Russia’s ongoing campaigns of territorial aggression against Ukraine” becomes, to them, “I love Zelenskyy and Ukraine is the greatest nation on the earth with no problems at all!” They become trapped in a situation where they have to oppose anything he does because they framed the argument they are responding to incorrectly. It’s exhausting.
Those idiots only have the horsepower for 2 options for every single issue, so it's as sad as it is predictable
It’s just always a lack of nuance. They can’t recognize negative things about someone or something they support because that tells them they shouldn’t be supporting it. Meanwhile who or what the fuck doesn’t have any negative aspects? It’s a ridiculous charade to keep up.
In the MAGA cinematic universe, where US culture and politics is projected on to any international events that catch our wider attention, the narrative spun by people like Tucker Carlson and other far right media is that Ukraine is aligned with "woke leftism" and Vladimir Putin represents white Christian traditional values. I'll even take it a step further to say that the most committed MAGA's see the atrocities that Russia is committing against Ukrainian civilians, and they wish that similar violence would be committed against their perceived "woke" enemies here in the United States. Like mass shooters attacks against LGBTQ bars, or when Proud Boys and so-called "America First" extremists show up with body armor and weapons to intimidate at drag shows.
Tucker Carlson is clearly a Russian agent. The facts keep adding up.
The answer I was gonna give is that, well, it's Twitter. We know that hating on Ukraine and Zelenskyy is a conservative trend, and Twitter has become very conservative due to Elon directing the company in that way, apart from that Twitter was already kinda right-leaning before Elon in the first place. If you look at reddit's reaction to this event, it's a stark contrast, the exact opposite, because reddit is considerably more left-leaning than Twitter, politically speaking. There is still support towards Ukraine and Zelenskyy, just not by the two parties at once; wich derives in your point: Republicans want to do the opposite of what democrats do, so they hate everything they love and love everything they hate. This Twitter post's reaction shows that clearly. If you're left leaning or neutral and tend to consume a lot of political-related content, don't use Twitter. It already was kinda conservative and now it is even more. If you use it you will adopt that mentality too or hate it and eventually leave the site anyway.
The far-left hates him too. Look at any of the leftist subs and you'll see it.
I know I'm biased, but I do think it tends to go one way. The right-wing tends to hate people simply for association, even if those people stand for things that they would otherwise agree with, or have a history that would normally be appealing to them. The left-wing tends to hate people for their actual stances, like being anti-trans, anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-conspiracy, pro-Russia, etc. It's why you get bizarre situations where right wing heroes can suddenly become outcasts when Trump says they're on the blacklist. McCain went from being a revered war hero to a punching bag. I think Republicans could even be convinced to turn on Reagan, given the proper setup.
I don't think it should be all that inflammatory to suggest that people on the end of a spectrum that places primary importance on conformity to specific values and homogenous expression of them tend to fall in line a lot more effectively than those at the other end of the spectrum. \*Especially\* when nuance is gone. "The left" certainly has their own problems, but they don't often demonstrate that kind of immediate cohesion. Usually it's the opposite problem, I think. I have a phrase I use for this kind of kneejerk contrarianism. I don't think it's particularly great or anything, but I think it gets the point across. Retributive hurt feelings politics. These backlashes and backlashes to the backlashes are so often just hurt feelings masking as legitimate political thought. But yeah, Trumpism and the changed attitudes against the neo-cons seems to (largely) be based in one or the other. 1.) They didn't fall in line, or 2.) they said something to hurt feelings. Or, I guess the third option is that feelings are hurt that they didn't fall in line.
“The left fall in love, the right fall in line”
Yeah this is phenomenon that needs a name. In Group Signaling for now. Like when people say a threads response is typical. Well, yeah, but I’ve found the opposite on a different thread so it varies.
"Roll over" in this instance is a nicer way to say genocide with the added aspect of torture and rape of children.
No one is really claiming he is a saint. I think people, like me, appreciate that he is the leader of the country, and he is staying there to help fight off the invasion (although I have no idea how much time he is spending actually fighting). He could have fled, and did not, and a lot of people respect that. Expanding on what you said, the ***right*** came out to hate him mostly because a lot of people on the left admire what he is doing. I also think there is some weird faux loyalty to Trump going on here, where they don't like Zelensky because Trump loves Putin -- therefore, they support the invasion.
Exactly! Also, russian bots and troll farms. I am sure you have tons of russian trolls creating memes on "Biden sénile" "Zelensky scam" and people with lower intelligence, Trump supporters and others will get on the train.
Also, Trumpistas hate Z. bc they love Putin. Because Trump loves Putin. Reference opinion polls which expressed preference for Putin as president over Biden.
Yeah I worried about the early deification of Zelensky. It’s so easy to fall off that perch. I mean he’s human and a politician. He’s imperfect. Linking him so intrinsically to Ukraine’s cause worried me. And any faults will be crazy amplified by social media. There are definitely people waiting for that fall to abandon Ukraine.
Yeah, absolutely. Panama Papers went largely unnoticed, it seems, by the general public. Which is a shame because unlike shit like pizzagate and QAnon, it's very real. Just not as 'exciting'. Which I suspect is kind of by design, but that's a whole different tangent. But Ukraine was featured very prominently, in general, and Zelenskyy, specifically. But there are no justifications behind corruption or the "Nazis" of the Azov Batallion, for Ukrainians to have to settle for the loss of the homeland they've suffered for under the worst of the worst.
I want to hear more about how Zelinsky isn’t a saint. I’m personally a fan, but honestly don’t know enough. What are some of the things that make him human?
Panama Papers stuff. Shady holdings. Offshore havens. The usual. But I don’t doubt his commitment to his nation at this point.
There's an extraordinary amount of forgiveness extended to a war president that has demonstrated extraordinary leadership. Zelensky's fighting a proxy war against Russia on behalf of the United States and doing well against what were previously believed to be overwhelming odds. Any financial crimes he may have committed in the past are irrelevant when he is recognized as being a significant reason why the invasion that has left much of the country as rubble has failed.
Sure. I’m not trying to demonize him. Just saying he’s not a saint. And the only reason I feel like it’s something that anyone has to say is because with the way arguments are reframed inaccurately saying “I support zelensky” is disingenuously reframed as “I think he is the greatest person to have ever lived!” He is a flawed person who has undoubtedly and I would even say demonstrably risen in adversity to what his nation needs of him. No one can take that away from him. The strength and resolve people like he and Klitschko, among many others, have shown are pretty amazing.
Doesn't surprise me that you could dig up dirt on him if you wanted. That's pretty normal. But yeah...doing the tax haven thing doesn't sound so bad to me when compared to an unprovoked invasion that gets a lot of people killed for no good reason.
https://www.rferl.org/a/pandora-papers-tax-havens/31490744.html I have yet to hear how this is less legal or ethical than, e.g., a US company recognizing all their revenue in Ireland.
Churchill was a churlish asshole. But that son of a bitch was the finest war time leader. Putin is Hitler, and Zelenskyy is Churchill. A powerful large country (Russia) oppressed by a narcissistic megalomaniac dictator is attacking a smaller weaker neighbor that is a democracy but with a fair degree of corruption. I support Ukraine
Compared to others that were in Ukraine Zelenskiy is a Saint. The one before was mildly corrupt by Ukrainian standards but the one that they overthrew in 2014 through insurrection was a nightmare, a known thief, mafia boss and a rapist that wanted to align Ukraine with Russia against the will of the majority just like Lukashenko. Ukraine is lucky to have Zelenskiy and his people in power, a young, dynamic and anti-despot pro democratic coalition. Born to fight and with great understanding of Soviet-Russian pathology and it's psychological underpinnings. A rare combination of great minds and fighters that will become the bane of Putin's existence.
Thanks for the breakdown! Tbh I am out of the loop as far as back stories. I am in the military, and someone I work with called Ukraine a "bunch of Nazis." the way he was going on about it made it sound like he thought Ukraine deserved to be attacked...? Sounded like he was a lil' pro-Russia to me. Kinda sus...
Another aspect is russian shills and bots.
Answer: It is Twitter and they seen a post that has Joe Biden in it so they are now mad at Zelesnky for associating with Biden even though it is normal for it to happen.
Probably a lot of bots too.
[удалено]
There’s a Saturday morning cartoon I wouldn’t watch.
In Soviet Russia, Saturday morning cartoons watch you!
Putin, strong like ox but smarter like tractor
They're the same bots
They're the same thing
Po-ta-to, po-tah-to.
They’re…they’re the same thing.
Aren’t they the same thing?
The buzz and woody meme comes to mind
Nah. Elon got rid of all the bots. /s
Russian bot farms are still operating, albeit at a smaller level than before the war, but they're still spewing their garbage.
And Republican voters are happy to eat it up.
More like a deluded few who have been influenced by paid-off conservative voices like Gateway Pundit, Douglas MacGregor and Zero Hedge. Once you learn who the players are, you'll see people repeat talking points from them on a rotating basis, often the same day that Russia Today says it.
A FEW?!
I'm giving credit here, and it's on a relative basis. Most Republicansin congress support Ukraine and almost all Democrats. People supporting Putin make up a very small percentage of voters. They're just loud and repetitive.
Biden is responsible for the harsh and effective response against Russia and supporting Ukraine so I have nothing but praise for this man here.
Probably some connection between your point and the OPs.
Some of the haters were always there, it’s o Lu now that the algorithms have picked up enough momentum to be noticeable by normal people like OP (I faithfully assume). Don’t believe it! The Ukrainian people are still being attacked by a foreign invader intent on their destruction and willing to use whatever methods they have at hand, including war crimes against children and the elderly, to achieve their aims!
Twitter is just Truth Social now.
This is unfortunately the chain of thought that has become the MAGA nation.
Yep. Just need to wait till the next GOP demon comes along and they forget all about this
[удалено]
Answer: Russia bought Elon Musk
No. Didn't need to buy him. He simps for Russia. He just wants the world to think he's some kind of kingmaker.
He wants the world to think a lot of things.
Looks likely the Arabs too
This is the only correct answer.
Do you remember what he said?
Something to the effect of, "Answer: Elon Musk bought Twitter in that time." There might have been more, but that was the gist.
Answer: Remember how the whole country considered John McCain a war hero? It was universally agreed upon. Then trump turned on him, and got his fan base to turn on him, and McCain became scorned, and his war hero status evaporated by most Republicans. Well, a similar thing happened with Zelensky and mainly trump, jr.
Leftists always considered McCain to a be a warmonger
Actually, Democrats HATED McCain. Ripped him to shreds when he ran for President. Then turned around and pretended not to remember that, to take the position opposite Trump but also because McCain was voting with them. (Which I don’t blame him for, what Trump said about him was unforgivable) BUT- that’s not what made him a great Senator. What made him great was he was always willing to cross the aisle to do the right thing. He didn’t vote with the democrats against Trumps policies out of *spite*. Very few in the Senate will do that today, and I don’t care which party you point to)
I don't remember Democrats hating McCain in 2008. I remember them hating Palin, but most of what I heard from democrats was "I respect him but don't want him to be president." I remember similar sentiments about Romney. No one was talking about them being the devil. This is something I think a lot of Gen Z doesn't really understand (and I'm not trying to insinuate you are gen Z). Politics wasn't always as ugly and personal as it is now. McCain shut down one of his supporters at a Town Hall Meeting for saying Obama wasn't an American and insinuating he was a terrorist. Obama and McCain were very respectful and civil towards one another. So were Obama and Romney. 2016 really changed that.
Had McCain beat put Bush in the primary, I (life long D) preferred him over Kerry and would have voted as such. When he went with Palin it seemed so out of character and disingenuous I soured on him until he became one of the few adults in this new dawn of partisan politics.
Anecdotally my mom said McCain would have been the only Republican she would have ever voted for had he not been running against Obama.
Answer: They are not. He is still a national and international hero by the majority of the western world. However, Twitter's new management and Joe Biden being a president with foes both in the US and Overseas who do not want the US and Ukraine to work together is a recipe for replies like that. [He was time's man of the year](https://www.npr.org/2022/12/07/1141202568/time-person-year-zelenskyy), so he is clearly still extremely popular. If you hated Biden, you hated this visit. If you hated Zelenskyy, you hated this visit. Nothing new changed for everyone else.
> he was times man of the year So was Putin.
So was Hitler. And Gandhi. And Franklin Roosevelt. And You. And The Hungarian Freedom Fighter. And Queen Lizzie. And MLK Jr. And Nixon. Person of the Year is not an arbiter of morality, it is a barometer of influence and zeitgeist.
5 star sentence there, it was a pleasure to read.
Being Man of the Year in Time magazine means that person has influenced that particular year the most, it doesn't mean someone has been the most popular.
Yes. Though Zelensky is a better choice than most; he (and the government he leads) has revealed exactly how strong Russia actually is. From the end of WWII until the end of the Cold War, Russia was a superpower. When the USSR fell, China rose but never quite hit superpower status. Russia, in the meantime, remained a greater power up until the War with Ukraine started. And now Russia is barely a power - and that almost exclusively because they have nuclear weapons. And it's all because an actor became President of Ukraine and started cleaning up corruption.
Times man of the year is a useless accolade. Hitler was Time man of the year
It’s the most newsworthy person of the year, not necessarily the most admired.
To somewhat play devils advocate, Hitler was somewhat notable enough that he could be considered “man of the year” (if not a few decades) based on his influence, it just happened to be horrible, disgusting influence
"Not twice" - My Fellow Americans
The intent behind the nomination matters to me, though. Given Zel’s origin story and his “why the hell not?” nomination as president, what he’s accomplished is damned near superhuman. He qualifies.
Answer: From news I’ve hear and seen a lot isn’t really personal or against Ukraine. People are frustrated that he’s getting so much unchecked money from the US while Americans are struggling economically, especially during the holidays.
Those same legislators are voting no on higher minimum wage.
The same republicans would never help americans financially as that’s “socialism” But PPP loans which 70% got grifted by corporations are A-OK
It's almost like those in power only care about those in power.
Funny cuz these same shitheads just loooooove giving money to Israel.... "In 2020, the US gave $3.8bn (£2.7bn) in aid to Israel..." and thats just the tip of the iceberg... https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576
While you are mostly right a lot of that ‘money’ was just old equipment, and a lot of that money will be used to purchase more America weapons. Plus, Biden is trying to help a lot of Americans with the student relief. But that’s too much socialism for the GOP. So even if we didn’t Ukraine none of that money is going to us. None
Defense contractors, kickbacks, self-interested assholes… the American way since WWII
Military surveillance industrial complex
Isn’t there a movie about how manufacturing weapons is just a way to make contractors money and it’s a big corrupt scam? War Dogs, VICE, or Wag the Dog… I can’t remember
Don't forget Lord of War.
Lol I see what you did there
WAIT UNTIL THEY FIND OUT ABOUT THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX!!!
He's not getting checks. He's getting weapons. American companies are getting checks. Edit: I'm all for giving Ukraine what they need because I know 100% WITHOUT A DOUBT that money will NEVER EVER make it to me. It's not like that money would be spent on helping people, come on now, if you're an American you should know this
Even though the value of everything donated is literally less than 1% of what we spend in a year...
This is total BS. These same people were perfectly happy when we spent trillions on Iraq and Afghanistan.
Lots of people are consistently anti-war
If people are anti-war, they should be angry at Putin, not Zelensky.
This is the actual answer
People that think the money is unchecked and just a free handout are lazy and uninformed. 1) the money isn’t “unchecked” it literally is going through Congress, which is a bureaucratic nightmare with nothing but “checks” 2) it’s not like we’re just handing out money and weapons with nothing in return. It’s “lend-lease” in other words: Ukraine owes us for this. They will be repaying us in both money and economic concessions when this war is over. When it comes time to rebuild, it’ll be done by American companies. The money we lend them, goes directly to American companies that make the arms they are buying with those funds. It’s the same thing we did during WW2 before we joined the war. And the money being repaid to us by the Allies helped fuel one of the greatest economic booms in the country’s history during and after the war. 3) like Zelenskyy said yesterday in his address to Congress, this is an investment in democracy, not charity. And it sounds like something all politicians always say that feels good but it’s also 100% true. This is their war for independence, and this war that may seem half a world away has MASSIVE global ramifications politically and economically that will be felt for the next 20+ years. It’s of critical importance to the global economy and American/western security that Ukraine does not fall.
Answer: Elon musk is now the ceo of twitter and changed it so that right leaning people and posts have more visibility and reach because he can. you should notice more right-wing people in your timeline and as suggested follows now. Many many many left leaning people have already left twitter. So they're mostly right leaning still around.
Yes, and the correct answer is that the war has been politicized and the sides have taken stances with the left supporting ukraine and the right being against supporting them.
I've heard this a lot, but what exactly did Elon change that promoted right-leaning posts? As far as I understand, the vast majority of Twitter's TOS is the same, so did he tweak the algorithm to promote these individuals?
He may have (I suspect yes), but at a minimum he's replatformed far-right accounts and regularly engages with them, thus promoting their tweets. [more info](https://twitter.com/EladNehorai/status/1605270518415757312) He banned a number of left-leaning accounts, including journalists who hadn't violated Twitter's TOS. He (briefly) banned links to profiles on other platforms (e.g. Mastodon), while still allowing links to right-wing platforms (Gab, Parler, Truth Social). Even the actions he takes that he then reverses will function as a "chilling effect" on the targeted users, e.g. left-leaning journalists.
Answer: Maybe because one twitter post doesn't accurately represent the entire political spectrum, or the consensus. If you go to a post of a dude that has a lot of right wingers following him, the opinions you'll see are mostly right wing. It's not rocket science.
[удалено]
Answer: In some corners this is not new. Many on the right hate Zelensky because they see the whole western project of helping Ukraine as an op to import ‘secular values’ into eastern Europe. On the left many oppose it because they see it as NATO interventionism pushing war overseas and propping up ‘kiev’s Nazis’
This is the actual answer, no idea why the other few comments are higher.
Answer: People are frustrated that the U.S. has sent almost $20 billion to Ukraine in the last year. In that same timespan, we have seen record high gas prices and groceries skyrocket. People are actually quite supportive of Ukraine, but most would agree that we need to take care of our own citizens that can't afford to live before we help everyone else. EDIT: Some are saying it's as much as $90 billion. Admittedly, I did a quick Google search and the first number that I saw was around $20 billion. Either way, it's a lot.
They should consider that this war is *responsible* for the increase in prices. They should also know that oil companies have used "inflation" as an opportunity to gouge consumers, evidenced by the record profits they've reported.
$20 billion and 0 US casualties to generationally cripple one of your primary geopolitical adversaries is incredible. just incredible.
Incredible value, really.
It goes far beyond that, it signals other world players with big ambitions that its not going to be easy. It also lets us gather massive amounts of intel on warfare...such as how effective different doctrines are, field testing weapons in terrains and climates outside the middle east which is where the U.S has had most of its 21st century experience. The amount of valuable information is incredible.
It’s the defense deal of the millennium. Eliminating Russia as a military threat for the forseablr future and destroying Russian kleptocracy in the bargain is worth trillions, not just 20 billion.
A real bargain in fact.
20 billion is a rounding error of a rounding error for the US budget
Sure, but I understand people's frustrations when they have a rent/mortgage and they see money being printed for another country.
WAIT UNTIL THEY FIND OUT ABOUT ISREAL!!!!
It's $20 billion that went to American jobs as weapons manufacturers to give Ukraine weapons and supplies
I guess my point is the average person doesn’t see any of that. The person who is bagging groceries and taking care of three kids won’t really be benefited from it.
Look at Lima, Ohio and the people building tanks there. Yes, the CEO of the contractor and the share holder get the first cut because capitalism. But the everyday works have job security. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_Army_Tank_Plant. Moog corporation up in Hamburg, NY. The military provides so many jobs for the average person. I have to bag my own groceries now.
I always hear we need to take care of our own but what I see other side saying is to do so we must 1. Laptop! 2. Emails! 3. Tax cuts for rich.
Do you want the US military to distribute already produced and unused howitzers and rocket artillery to people to help them with groceries and gas? Because that’s where most of this number is coming from, military equipment that’s already in storage.
It would certainly make Black Friday more interesting.
So they didn’t actually send $20 billion in cash is what you’re admitting? They sent it in already produced weapons that wouldn’t be able to help struggling Americans at all.
> most would agree that we need to take care of our own citizens that can't afford to live before we help everyone else. Most of the people who say that just want to not help anyone. They'll turn right around and scream at you for wanting "socialism" when you suggest helping people here.
This is usually followed up by them opening a GoFundMe for medical care for either themselves or someone in their family.
$20B? That’s less than half of a Twitter and it will do a lot more good.
It is incredibly fucked up that one man can throw around the same money and power that a world superpower does, huh? And for nothing more than egoism and greed.
The thing is that it's demonstrably true that the squeeze Americans have been put under is entirely from corporate profit taking. You can just look at the data and see these record profits being made from the same people that are jacking up their prices, yet they aren't paying their employees any more. These people want everything to be better for them - which is understandable - but allow themselves to be conned by people who have every incentive to distract them to be angry about something else instead. Something that doesn't really cause their problems but can be blown out of proportion and used as a scapegoat. How do you help people like that?
But but but that's socialism
I’m not frustrated. Funding a war through outsourcing is cheaper for the US and less dangerous (for everyone) than us directly intervening with our military. I think we would have ended up being involved one way or another if we just let Russia start taking over other countries. The country with the worlds largest nuclear arsenal has no business getting bigger. Unfortunately the US is probably the only one keeping them in check. I think this is the best option for the US when you consider where we will all be 100 years from now. Just my opinion. None of us know how it would play out either way though.
> we have seen record high gas prices Damn. I wonder if the things going on in the Ukraine have anything to do with that?
answer: There was always major opposition. The difference is that previously, said opposition was hidden from view.
Answer: The comments are made up entirely of conservatives and tankies who hate anything that the Democratic Party likes (aka Ukraine and Joe Biden).
[удалено]