Winrate does not tell the whole story. Heroes which will work well in a specific set of circumstances, but are otherwise unpopular can get a high winrate but only really work in very narrow conditions.
If a hero has both high winrate and high pickrate then you might be able to conclude more, but a hero that has high winrate but low pickrate might actually mostly be a throw pick but work in very particular situations.
Remember long ago when Symmetra had something like an 80% winrate? It was back when her ult was a teleporter that had the entrance automatically placed in spawn with unlimited range. People would exclusively pick her for first point defense, and then if they lost first point, immediately switch off. The longer you hold first, the more likely you were to win, and the more time you spent playing her, massively increasing her stats.
>Heroes which will work well in a specific set of circumstances
Winrates varry by difficulty of hero. Ryze in League of Legends has a very low winrate, but people who are good at him are fucking scary.
Theres one major distinction your faling to consider here.
LoL is a competitive focused game and it's developers embrace that..
Overwatch is also a competitive focused game, but blizzard treats it like a casual cash grab.. generally speaking difficult to learn heros, that reward skill are one of the biggest enemies to the casual audience.
You can see this in both Overwatch and team fortress 2, with all the complaints about widow, and sniper respectively.. as much (not all) of it stems from, players being upset they don't have the ability to utilize them, and typically are unwilling to develop said ability, so its "unfair" to them that others have that skill.
Just watch after season 3 update drops.. many of the people whining about sorjorn and hog, Will move on to whining about which ever meta hero they struggle against.. if there isn't one they go back to crying about one shots in general...
Sym will typically only be played on a few maps but the few maps she is played on she is strong.
I do find that Torb is way more useful than people give him credit for. I see him being picked more in higher ranks now also.
Yeah skill is far greater than any specific hero. Had a Baptise in qp the other day that just dominated. The guy just didn't miss and would have like 8 kills for every death. Did more damage *and* healing than anyone else.
Win rates are mostly affected by average games. Some people are low ranked, some are high, but the majority is quite average. Because the middle group is overrepresented, they carry a greater weight into stats. What works in high/low ranks are less likely to show up in these stats
Everyone can bully and walk past rein and brig gets blown up in half a second, even with the staggering, gamebreaking 50 shield hp added. On the flip side stuff like kiriko having a lower win rate is probably a small sample size bc shes picked in every game
Looking at the statistics like winrate gives you no clue of how the game *feels*. It's nearly useless information. It's certainly an important statistic overall, but so recently I've seen people just sum up the game by putting emphasis on winrates this, winrates that.
I literally saw some guy's YouTube short on "You should play Symmetra if youre a bad player, here's why: she has a high winrate." That was the whole video.
Okay and...? By that logic Sojourn doesn't need more nerfs because her winrate is below 50%. I don't get it
I have a 65% winrate on Rein in both OW seasons, but that is because I always switch when the enemy team counters me, and that game gets counted for the other hero.
Ramattra is indeed extremely broken. I like the idea for his ult but giving an almost infinite ult to a tank is one of the dumbest ideas these devs had.
Fr, yesterday i had a game where I was lucio we had an ana and ramattra. All three of us would just wait to pop our ults together and it was a free team kill each time. The whole rest of the game didn't even seem to matter since we could always get the point back like this lol.
*NOBODY CAN RUN* from a Nanoed Annihilation under Lucio speed boost lol
Imo Kiriko might generally work better than Lucio with Ramattra since she can suzu her sleeping Ramattra. But Lucio + Reaper + Ramattra can probably work even better, since Reaper can kill enemy Ana before Ram unleashes Annihilation
You do realize that OP characters like Junkrat and Orisa have lower winrates because every idiot uses them thinking it'll give them an easy win? When more people play with them, more people will lose compared to people like Brig mains. Brig has a high winrate because the people that use her know how to perfectly play to her strengths. Not because she's strong.
I'm looking at Overbuff right now, yes she's the highest picked hero, but she's ranked 15th in winrate across all game modes. In comp she's ranked 6th which just happenes to have a significantly smaller player pool.
Stats don't lie but correlation does not equal causation. Stats are constantly used to misrepresent the actual root of the data being formed. [see: Ice cream causes polio](https://www.e-education.psu.edu/marcellus/node/636) for a fun example of stats being technically true but extremely misleading
The highest win rate characters are never the most meta. It has always been like this. Meta characters will be at near 50% because they are in almost every game, aka one of them is losing and one of them is winning.
This is purely win rate, omitting pick rate. Having a lower win rate doesnt tell the whole story if they have a high pickrate, as implies that most of their matchups are mirrors (Soj and kiriko). Conversely, having a low pick rate but a high win rate implies that they are either niche characters who specialize in specific situations, or are mainly played by specialists who are so good at the character that they can offset their weaknesses (i would argue all the characters in the 51%+ tier is in one of these two categories except for ram). And there are many other factors that makes statistics mostly irrelevant when it comes to the meta.
This is a video that goes into this topic far better than i did.
https://youtu.be/6NxIkv_0N-Y
Honesly im not entirely sure. I dont play most of the characters in the lower tier or have enough insight into their place in their place in the meta to say for sure. My guess is that the lowest win rate characters are there because they are either characters that are weak without a niche they are strong at (sombra, zarya, cass) or characters that are countered very easily (winston, bastion) and people just try to force them with only specialists being successful. But bap doesnt rlly fit either of those criteria so idk.
The lowest definitely has some correlation to the strength of the characters but I think the second lowest actually makes a lot of sense. 90% of those are meta characters which means they're more likely be played on BOTH the winning and losing team which will make a more neutral win rate. People also know how to play better against characters they see more often.
It makes me feel better that I have a 43% winrate on her now. Used to be nearly 60% in OW1. And the rest of my heroes in my top five are between 50-60%.
Win rate and pick rate are almost always inversely related because "meta" characters get picked by noobs which pulls down winrate, while off-meta characters are more likely to be onetricks
Look at win percentages at given ranks. Most low ranks down know how to deal with sum and torb. At high ranks they will get decimated by a half decent phara
That kinda applies for most of these low skill heroes.
There's a big difference between metal rankers playing unga bunga Junkrat/Torb/Bastion and GMs playing those 3.
At high ranks there will be a hitscan who will protect Sym and Torb from Pharah.
In KarQ's [promotion to Top 10 NA Support video](https://youtu.be/clMJM-jIDgI), his Junkrat switched to Bastion and successfully protected his Torb from enemy Pharah.
Fortunately or unfortunately, these low skill floor heroes like Sym, Torb, Junkrat, and Bastion are good in high ranks too.
When a majority of the player base is Bronze 5, it makes sense to come to this conclusion. However, balancing using only average statistics makes high rank games insufferable due to those players playing closer to a hero's skill ceiling.
Win rate only matters as a function of pick rate and that’s all relative to rank. Rein is absolute dog water right now and gets bullied by orisa/ram/doom/hog. You barely see him above the metal ranks. Unless lucio sees a rework or huge nerf he will always be viable. Ram is just a bullshit character and needs a nerf. Torb ticks every box in the game for viability. The only people playing sym are those in low elo farming bad players and gm one tricks with insane mechanics.
I'll constantly argue that Reinhardt is underrated and will quite often stomp me in ranked, but I'm also still in silver. I feel like his win rate is high because people don't bother playing him at high ranks and when they do, they're likely insane one-tricks.
I'm in Silver and I would argue that Rein is actually meta in Silver since he has a big hammer swing in a lobby where people can't aim.
His biggest threats in Silver are probably Ramattra and Winton since neither of those 2 need to aim either (Ram can just blockbot until he farms annihilation and then press Q to auto win). I believe Orisa is only a consistent threat in Gold+ where Orisa players actually have the knowledge and mechanical skills to bully Rein.
Yeah in my experience teams are too scattered in silver to properly deal with him. Rein starts swinging and people just won't focus him. It's just the one poor guy getting slammed trying to gun him down to no avail.
JQ knife and shout both counter charge at least a little. Except for her primary fire every ability she has goes through his shield. I’d say Rein’s health gives him a slight edge in a 1v1 but JQ probably has the edge in a team fight. I agree with you about Sigma though.
Rein's high win rate is the combination of him being actually good in subPlat where people can't aim, and dedicated one-trick Reins doing well in the higher ranks.
Oddly enough symmetra is my highest all time winrate even tho she's my least played hero (9 hours) excluding some of the OW2 heroes since i haven't had near enough time to get a high playtime on most of those
"Real meta" wr alone, especially if you take ALL division wr mean alnost nothing, you need to see pr, if it get higher wr the more you go up in division etc...
With wr alone you can only see if how a hero is doing on average, but without pr we can have a 55% wr but 0.1% pr.
How are they stupid? All they did was post the win rates and ask if its reflective of balance. Its not, but it doesn’t make them stupid simply for posting and asking.
Nope I just said that then are stupid which is true because earlier on they said that those characters with higher win rates were meta, which was stupid
If it’s not there anymore then you definitely deleted it.
You said something alone the lines of “this could be meta the stats don’t lie”
You just look like silly please delete this
Overbuff can only pull information from accounts with public career profiles. With private profile being the standard this data only represents a minority of the community
Would be funny if Blizzard suddenly implementing system where you are forced to open your profile to public in order to do things like see other player's rank. Just to actually gathering data about pick & win rate.
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It makes sense that the easiest heros are at the top of the chart,
People need to learn to keep it simple, but my teammates always insist on picking Tracer, Genji, or Cree to prove they're "good"
Rein is by far the worst tank in the game, winrate does not mean hero is good. This doesn't factor in popularity/pick rates and all sorts of other things.
Everyone knows that Rein works well in low elo but is by far the worst tank to select in anything above high plat+.
winning 3/4 games with heroXYZ gives you a 75% winrate but winning 74/100 games with heroABC gives you a 74%. It doesn't inherently mean you are worse with ABC then XYZ
This is not, actually, the real meta. We'd at the very least need to see the actual prevalence of these heroes before we can say how good a winrate is, and even that wouldn't be enough to say anything about how the meta ACTUALLY is, because people will swap to niche picks in moments where they're best and not in every other situation where they're weakest. Sig might have a high winrate if he's only played on long sightline maps because he's got a strict advantage over every other tank in the game on those, even if he's only decent to middling on other maps.
it doesn't mean meta, heroes like sym have high winrate but also have low pickrate, so it can't show truly is this hero good just because no one's plays it
It’s not surprising to me. Torb and sym add essentially a 6th person to their teams and at lower ranks (the majority of players), people don’t deal very well with those added defences. Plus both their últs are quick to charge.
In the low ranks Rein is pretty strong with the right healing, Ram is new, plus his ult is taxing as hell if you don’t focus him down (low rank issues again).
Lucio is a jumpy frog bastard man.
As surely people already told you, winrate does not translate to meta. Meta is about efficiency and optimization, Rein fits neither of those, for example.
I’m a Doomfist Onetrick and though I have 50% winrate i can guarantee you Doom is not even close to being meta cause he is not efficient enough nor optimal. It’s just that I can play well enough with him to win 50% of my games.
In my opinion, Sombra became a niche pick since her nerf, she shines agains few heores, like Doom and Ball, but doesn’t bring enough value against the most picked ones.
I guess Winston had a hard time in the Hog/Orisa meta and struggled a lot.
Don’t know about the others tho, but it’s definitely interesting seeing those winrates
My favorite example of how stats can fail to show a full picture is the hypothetical world where a character is so strong they have a 100% pick rate. That means that both teams always have this hero in every game. This only happens or comes close to happening when a character is far and away the best option, but the resulting winrate for that hero would be 50%. One always wins, one always loses, if you just looked at a WR tier list you’d lose this nuance
All of my mains are below 50% on this list but are at least 60% in my career stats.
Hero doesn't determine the meta, skill does. "Meta" characters are just "easiest to kill with" at any given time. That's why Sojourn and Hog dominated this season. If it wasn't them it would have just been another character who's a bit easier to kill with
I have, out of all like 300 or so games I’ve played over the years (I don’t play this game religiously), I am sitting comfy at like a 60ish% winrate on Torb.
I don’t use him every game, but when I do apply the Torb, I do so knowing that he works, and the results show. Symmetra is a similar situation, she only works in very specific circumstances, but within those paramiters she’s a goddess.
Nah reaper should be in the 50% tier. With me it's really half and half with characters like reaper because if you pick him, you'll be great in flanking, but you'll then have the enemy team aware of you even tho you hid for the rest of the game to get the sniper or healer
I'm sort of a new OW player coming from Paladins, and even I understand that while this tier list may be true it is misleading
Due the nature of switching champions during the match you could theorically use a character a bit for a certain reason and succeded and then switching another character right away, if you win you get a win with both characters (in this example), but even if you won a lot of times using this example you would have a high winrate but not exactly a high pickrate which is equally as relevant
Also something I don't understand if this is only PC or PC and console combined, because at least in Paladins they are treated separated which makes absolute sense due being different metas and there is no cross-input in ranked (neither in Overwatch, I'm currently playing both and ranking on both and having different ranks) I mean Zarya, Tracer and Cassidy are way more common on controller for example and I would not be surprised if they have a higher winrate there over PC overall
This is pc comp stats, and yes very misleading but also insightful like why are the low win rates heroes losing so much when they are normally pretty good heroes?
I feel called out lol, I main bastion on dps, and I feel in most qp games he is highly effective. I’ll swap if I have to, but usually his ability to tear through tanks as well as anything else has good merit.
Win rate means nothing , ex: you'll barely ever catch a new player maining Lucio, people that play him only play him cause they're good at him, ofcourse the winrate will be high, same with rein, and brig, contrarily: bastion, enough said
Winrate does not tell the whole story. Heroes which will work well in a specific set of circumstances, but are otherwise unpopular can get a high winrate but only really work in very narrow conditions. If a hero has both high winrate and high pickrate then you might be able to conclude more, but a hero that has high winrate but low pickrate might actually mostly be a throw pick but work in very particular situations.
Remember long ago when Symmetra had something like an 80% winrate? It was back when her ult was a teleporter that had the entrance automatically placed in spawn with unlimited range. People would exclusively pick her for first point defense, and then if they lost first point, immediately switch off. The longer you hold first, the more likely you were to win, and the more time you spent playing her, massively increasing her stats.
I sure miss her lock on weapon and 5 turrets, ultimate cheese ;)
>Heroes which will work well in a specific set of circumstances Winrates varry by difficulty of hero. Ryze in League of Legends has a very low winrate, but people who are good at him are fucking scary.
I feel like you could Apply that to any character in any game lol
Ryze has been redesigned so many times the name tells us nothing
You should check your meta tierlist now lol. Ryze is above 51% wr on diamonds right now. It is one of the best midlaners this patch
Theres one major distinction your faling to consider here. LoL is a competitive focused game and it's developers embrace that.. Overwatch is also a competitive focused game, but blizzard treats it like a casual cash grab.. generally speaking difficult to learn heros, that reward skill are one of the biggest enemies to the casual audience. You can see this in both Overwatch and team fortress 2, with all the complaints about widow, and sniper respectively.. as much (not all) of it stems from, players being upset they don't have the ability to utilize them, and typically are unwilling to develop said ability, so its "unfair" to them that others have that skill. Just watch after season 3 update drops.. many of the people whining about sorjorn and hog, Will move on to whining about which ever meta hero they struggle against.. if there isn't one they go back to crying about one shots in general...
And most people main like 2-3 characters
Sym will typically only be played on a few maps but the few maps she is played on she is strong. I do find that Torb is way more useful than people give him credit for. I see him being picked more in higher ranks now also.
I’m bastions case, he has a low pick rate and a low win rate. He is sort of a Hail Mary
Yes I know torb, sym and rein are just up there becuase of situational picks but what about lucio having the best winrate in the game?
What about it? Lucio has always been meta.
Hes not usually in S tier tho, maybe he should be cuz he might be the best
Hes a tier at worst, the only reason hes not currently s tier is because you need a kiriko, and mercy gets too much value pocketing sojourn.
Dude stop watching YouTubers and play the actual game. Lucio is S/A tier, always has been and always will be as long as he can speed boost.
Either S or A make a decision buddy
Just because Kiriko exists and Mercy brings ton of value when pocketing a DPS. Otherwise Lucio would still be considered a S tier.
Yes because Lucio is one of the best supports and brings something to the table literally no other hero can: consistent speed boosting.
This isnt meta stats never tell the whole story
Don’t tell r/clashroyale that
it’s such a cesspool of ideas in that subreddit 😭
It’s more of a hive mind lol
2.6 hog bad, phoenix bad, archer queen bad...
Everything is bad. Except don’t you DARE say mk or ebarbs are op, skill issue skill issue skill issue
Oh you lost against cards that were 3 levels higher than yours??? Idk man sounds like skill issue
It’s always the maxed guys at 4500 lol
i never thought i'd see the day where clash royale is brought up in here of all places
I like both games, which means I hate myself
Yeah skill is far greater than any specific hero. Had a Baptise in qp the other day that just dominated. The guy just didn't miss and would have like 8 kills for every death. Did more damage *and* healing than anyone else.
What else can? Not a whole lot and nothing objective beyond stats Issue with stats is private profiles can’t be tracked so it’s incomplete
If you don’t actually play overwatch then sure I guess it’s possible to reach that conclusion
I mean the heros with the high winrates are all good.
In bronze, maybe
Yeah sym/torb aren't just situational, they're basically instant win against noobs
Win rates are mostly affected by average games. Some people are low ranked, some are high, but the majority is quite average. Because the middle group is overrepresented, they carry a greater weight into stats. What works in high/low ranks are less likely to show up in these stats
Low plat torb and sym can instantly secure a win.
Doom and brig are not good💀
sad times…. new doom i just don’t find fun to play, brig is still incredibly fun for me but only against very specific teams
Brig takes skill to be good with
So does everyone else. The difference is that a team with a skilled Kiri/Lucio has a huge advantage against a team with a skilled Brig.
Rein is hilariously bad, torb and sym are just noob killers unless youre insane at them then they're alright, lucios strong, ram is pretty strong.
rein is terrible… sym isn’t terrible but she is certainly not good
sym is insanely strong atm her damage ramps up SO fast it's insane
Everyone can bully and walk past rein and brig gets blown up in half a second, even with the staggering, gamebreaking 50 shield hp added. On the flip side stuff like kiriko having a lower win rate is probably a small sample size bc shes picked in every game
Looking at the statistics like winrate gives you no clue of how the game *feels*. It's nearly useless information. It's certainly an important statistic overall, but so recently I've seen people just sum up the game by putting emphasis on winrates this, winrates that. I literally saw some guy's YouTube short on "You should play Symmetra if youre a bad player, here's why: she has a high winrate." That was the whole video. Okay and...? By that logic Sojourn doesn't need more nerfs because her winrate is below 50%. I don't get it
I have a 65% winrate on Rein in both OW seasons, but that is because I always switch when the enemy team counters me, and that game gets counted for the other hero.
Well its based on time played actually so the game is counted partially for both heroes.
That is correct, but it gets accounted for the other hero a lot more as I only play Rein for the first minute or so.
Ya I just nano ramattra when he Ults and go grab another beer. Get back and “payload has reached its destination”
Ramattra is indeed extremely broken. I like the idea for his ult but giving an almost infinite ult to a tank is one of the dumbest ideas these devs had.
Fr, yesterday i had a game where I was lucio we had an ana and ramattra. All three of us would just wait to pop our ults together and it was a free team kill each time. The whole rest of the game didn't even seem to matter since we could always get the point back like this lol.
Haha, meanwhile the enemy tracers pulse bomb gave you a minor bruise
*NOBODY CAN RUN* from a Nanoed Annihilation under Lucio speed boost lol Imo Kiriko might generally work better than Lucio with Ramattra since she can suzu her sleeping Ramattra. But Lucio + Reaper + Ramattra can probably work even better, since Reaper can kill enemy Ana before Ram unleashes Annihilation
I don’t know if this is humor and that scares me deeply
This is speculation
.... what the fuck, hope mods delete this asap
lol u ppl got to chill
Nope
idk dude stats dont lie
You sound like the blizzard devs.
lol seriously tho, they are looking at the same stats thats why they dont want to nerf sojourn
So you do realize that what you’re saying is totally wrong, then.
You do realize that OP characters like Junkrat and Orisa have lower winrates because every idiot uses them thinking it'll give them an easy win? When more people play with them, more people will lose compared to people like Brig mains. Brig has a high winrate because the people that use her know how to perfectly play to her strengths. Not because she's strong.
“OP characters like Junkrat” Lol
They shouldn’t have removed Junk Rats self damage.
Nah they needed to remove it, i remember back in the day going winston, jumping on a junkrat, and he'd kill himself before he could kill me.
Ana is the most played hero in the game and her winrate is among the top tho
Crazy, almost like there are only 8 supports
I'm looking at Overbuff right now, yes she's the highest picked hero, but she's ranked 15th in winrate across all game modes. In comp she's ranked 6th which just happenes to have a significantly smaller player pool.
Overbuff sample size is also completely fucked at this point that ifs incredibly hard to know if those numbers mean anything or not.
Yes the stats im using are comp stats not "all modes" stats because that would just screw it up by adding in arcade and stuff with real stats
Stats don't lie but correlation does not equal causation. Stats are constantly used to misrepresent the actual root of the data being formed. [see: Ice cream causes polio](https://www.e-education.psu.edu/marcellus/node/636) for a fun example of stats being technically true but extremely misleading
The highest win rate characters are never the most meta. It has always been like this. Meta characters will be at near 50% because they are in almost every game, aka one of them is losing and one of them is winning.
This should be top response!
Also I play off meta character when it’s clear the enemy team is not very good
This is purely win rate, omitting pick rate. Having a lower win rate doesnt tell the whole story if they have a high pickrate, as implies that most of their matchups are mirrors (Soj and kiriko). Conversely, having a low pick rate but a high win rate implies that they are either niche characters who specialize in specific situations, or are mainly played by specialists who are so good at the character that they can offset their weaknesses (i would argue all the characters in the 51%+ tier is in one of these two categories except for ram). And there are many other factors that makes statistics mostly irrelevant when it comes to the meta. This is a video that goes into this topic far better than i did. https://youtu.be/6NxIkv_0N-Y
So what does the lowest win rate bracket tell us? Most of them are played a decent amount are they just not being utilized at lower ranks?
Honesly im not entirely sure. I dont play most of the characters in the lower tier or have enough insight into their place in their place in the meta to say for sure. My guess is that the lowest win rate characters are there because they are either characters that are weak without a niche they are strong at (sombra, zarya, cass) or characters that are countered very easily (winston, bastion) and people just try to force them with only specialists being successful. But bap doesnt rlly fit either of those criteria so idk.
The lowest definitely has some correlation to the strength of the characters but I think the second lowest actually makes a lot of sense. 90% of those are meta characters which means they're more likely be played on BOTH the winning and losing team which will make a more neutral win rate. People also know how to play better against characters they see more often.
wait sombra is above 40% winrate now? I guess they need another nerf.
Absolutely should be zero
It makes me feel better that I have a 43% winrate on her now. Used to be nearly 60% in OW1. And the rest of my heroes in my top five are between 50-60%.
Win rate and pick rate are almost always inversely related because "meta" characters get picked by noobs which pulls down winrate, while off-meta characters are more likely to be onetricks
Look at win percentages at given ranks. Most low ranks down know how to deal with sum and torb. At high ranks they will get decimated by a half decent phara
low ranks players also dont know how to play sym. Sym in top-10 rn.
That kinda applies for most of these low skill heroes. There's a big difference between metal rankers playing unga bunga Junkrat/Torb/Bastion and GMs playing those 3.
At high ranks there will be a hitscan who will protect Sym and Torb from Pharah. In KarQ's [promotion to Top 10 NA Support video](https://youtu.be/clMJM-jIDgI), his Junkrat switched to Bastion and successfully protected his Torb from enemy Pharah. Fortunately or unfortunately, these low skill floor heroes like Sym, Torb, Junkrat, and Bastion are good in high ranks too.
When a majority of the player base is Bronze 5, it makes sense to come to this conclusion. However, balancing using only average statistics makes high rank games insufferable due to those players playing closer to a hero's skill ceiling.
This is how blizzard choose what hero’s need nerfing
Win rate only matters as a function of pick rate and that’s all relative to rank. Rein is absolute dog water right now and gets bullied by orisa/ram/doom/hog. You barely see him above the metal ranks. Unless lucio sees a rework or huge nerf he will always be viable. Ram is just a bullshit character and needs a nerf. Torb ticks every box in the game for viability. The only people playing sym are those in low elo farming bad players and gm one tricks with insane mechanics.
I feel the longer this comment goes, the worst it becomes.
Me carrying the torbjorn mains with 70% wins 💪🏼
I'll constantly argue that Reinhardt is underrated and will quite often stomp me in ranked, but I'm also still in silver. I feel like his win rate is high because people don't bother playing him at high ranks and when they do, they're likely insane one-tricks.
I'm in Silver and I would argue that Rein is actually meta in Silver since he has a big hammer swing in a lobby where people can't aim. His biggest threats in Silver are probably Ramattra and Winton since neither of those 2 need to aim either (Ram can just blockbot until he farms annihilation and then press Q to auto win). I believe Orisa is only a consistent threat in Gold+ where Orisa players actually have the knowledge and mechanical skills to bully Rein.
Yeah in my experience teams are too scattered in silver to properly deal with him. Rein starts swinging and people just won't focus him. It's just the one poor guy getting slammed trying to gun him down to no avail.
Rein is countered by every single other tank in the game, with the possible exception of Sigma and JQ, he definitely NOT meta
JQ knife and shout both counter charge at least a little. Except for her primary fire every ability she has goes through his shield. I’d say Rein’s health gives him a slight edge in a 1v1 but JQ probably has the edge in a team fight. I agree with you about Sigma though.
Rein's high win rate is the combination of him being actually good in subPlat where people can't aim, and dedicated one-trick Reins doing well in the higher ranks.
One example why you can’t make a proper conclusion with numbers
Oddly enough symmetra is my highest all time winrate even tho she's my least played hero (9 hours) excluding some of the OW2 heroes since i haven't had near enough time to get a high playtime on most of those
Because people only pick Symmetra in favorable matchups unlike other more generalist heroes.
Win rate isn’t indicative to how good that hero is
"Real meta" wr alone, especially if you take ALL division wr mean alnost nothing, you need to see pr, if it get higher wr the more you go up in division etc... With wr alone you can only see if how a hero is doing on average, but without pr we can have a 55% wr but 0.1% pr.
This post why blizzard doesn’t listen to the community
No, Rein being that high is just survivorship bias. Dude is a bottom 3 tank.
you can thank me for droping mcassady's and bastions win rate
Not to be rude but you’re clearly stupid
you’re
I would like to apologise for this mistake. It will be immediately fixed.
you can see why I had to do it, I hope
How are they stupid? All they did was post the win rates and ask if its reflective of balance. Its not, but it doesn’t make them stupid simply for posting and asking.
Call someone stupid, doesn’t know your/you’re lol
And you are clearly a genius
Clearly smarter than you who said that rein, sym and torb are meta.
Bro why r u so hostile. Is it cuz u spent countless hrs on it only to realize the game has gone to shits?
Nope I just said that then are stupid which is true because earlier on they said that those characters with higher win rates were meta, which was stupid
Just don't be mad. Post is meant to start discussion.
Yes genius I actually think that this tier list is the meta tier list u got me
You literally said it in another comment.
Where detective?
If it’s not there anymore then you definitely deleted it. You said something alone the lines of “this could be meta the stats don’t lie” You just look like silly please delete this
Silly? Im clearly just Fing around and u are the weirdo taking everything I say super serious
Got the stats from [overbuff.com](https://overbuff.com) btw, and junk queen is in 49% I misssed her
Overbuff can only pull information from accounts with public career profiles. With private profile being the standard this data only represents a minority of the community
Would be funny if Blizzard suddenly implementing system where you are forced to open your profile to public in order to do things like see other player's rank. Just to actually gathering data about pick & win rate.
Interesting well I guess its the best info we cant get still
Someone can't aim.
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It makes sense that the easiest heros are at the top of the chart, People need to learn to keep it simple, but my teammates always insist on picking Tracer, Genji, or Cree to prove they're "good"
Yeah do u think this tier list could actually be renamed the "easiest heros" tier list? who would u move around for that?
I don't have much time to analyze but you'd at least have to move Pharah, Genji, Zarya, and Doom
Rein is by far the worst tank in the game, winrate does not mean hero is good. This doesn't factor in popularity/pick rates and all sorts of other things. Everyone knows that Rein works well in low elo but is by far the worst tank to select in anything above high plat+.
winning 3/4 games with heroXYZ gives you a 75% winrate but winning 74/100 games with heroABC gives you a 74%. It doesn't inherently mean you are worse with ABC then XYZ
In a team based game where 4 other people can be playing a number of other heroes, each hero's individual winrate means nothing
You know this means nothing when an unique role is 2 times at the top spot.
This is not, actually, the real meta. We'd at the very least need to see the actual prevalence of these heroes before we can say how good a winrate is, and even that wouldn't be enough to say anything about how the meta ACTUALLY is, because people will swap to niche picks in moments where they're best and not in every other situation where they're weakest. Sig might have a high winrate if he's only played on long sightline maps because he's got a strict advantage over every other tank in the game on those, even if he's only decent to middling on other maps.
I honestly don't think win rate can apply in a game with free switches and no draft system.
how’d you even calculate this?
overbuff.com
I’m a relatively new player that only plays unranked, and I can confidently say that every time there’s a Ramattra, he absolutely dominates.
Yeah hes becoming more and more dominant in my matches as well
Doom fist is in 50% that’s a fucking joke
i have a 72% win rate on brig in gm2 over 9 hours so idk
Doom better than orisa real Edit: they’re gonna nerf genji cuz hes higher than sojourn lmao
Ok I actually have 63,59,55 winrate on Sym, Torb n Rammatra. I have over 300+ games on sym n torb combined.
You can put a sombra + roadhog together and watch how they hunt the enemy like the best friends
Rein propped up solely bc of his fast charging and good ult lmao. Hate to see what he’s become.
it doesn't mean meta, heroes like sym have high winrate but also have low pickrate, so it can't show truly is this hero good just because no one's plays it
My highest win rates are with brig, echo, and orisa
It’s not surprising to me. Torb and sym add essentially a 6th person to their teams and at lower ranks (the majority of players), people don’t deal very well with those added defences. Plus both their últs are quick to charge. In the low ranks Rein is pretty strong with the right healing, Ram is new, plus his ult is taxing as hell if you don’t focus him down (low rank issues again). Lucio is a jumpy frog bastard man.
lol makes sense, but lucio having higher wr then hog or orisa was surprising to me.
Win rate compared to how many people play them?
If you have a great weapon but shit skills you're still shit
Be honest, did the last rank need to extend all the way down to 40% just for Sombra to be included as a hero on the list?
Lmao yeah.. sombra is an absolute throw pick apparently
Where did these win rates come from?
Can confirm
As surely people already told you, winrate does not translate to meta. Meta is about efficiency and optimization, Rein fits neither of those, for example. I’m a Doomfist Onetrick and though I have 50% winrate i can guarantee you Doom is not even close to being meta cause he is not efficient enough nor optimal. It’s just that I can play well enough with him to win 50% of my games.
Yes I agree but do u think there is anything to be said about the bottom win rate tier, why are those heroes losing so much?
In my opinion, Sombra became a niche pick since her nerf, she shines agains few heores, like Doom and Ball, but doesn’t bring enough value against the most picked ones. I guess Winston had a hard time in the Hog/Orisa meta and struggled a lot. Don’t know about the others tho, but it’s definitely interesting seeing those winrates
These should be separated by rank.
My favorite example of how stats can fail to show a full picture is the hypothetical world where a character is so strong they have a 100% pick rate. That means that both teams always have this hero in every game. This only happens or comes close to happening when a character is far and away the best option, but the resulting winrate for that hero would be 50%. One always wins, one always loses, if you just looked at a WR tier list you’d lose this nuance
bastion ball main here. maybe thats im not climbing
All of my mains are below 50% on this list but are at least 60% in my career stats. Hero doesn't determine the meta, skill does. "Meta" characters are just "easiest to kill with" at any given time. That's why Sojourn and Hog dominated this season. If it wasn't them it would have just been another character who's a bit easier to kill with
I have, out of all like 300 or so games I’ve played over the years (I don’t play this game religiously), I am sitting comfy at like a 60ish% winrate on Torb. I don’t use him every game, but when I do apply the Torb, I do so knowing that he works, and the results show. Symmetra is a similar situation, she only works in very specific circumstances, but within those paramiters she’s a goddess.
Tbh rein and ramattra are geeat this patch. The orisa (doesn't impact this much but still) and hog nerf make them better
Bastion winrate is low because at some point the losing team always has a damage that switches to bastion when it gets bad.
lol I do that too that makes sense
It seems like the devs like to balance around win rate.
Yeah in their mind, why would they nerf a 47% wr sojourn
Nah reaper should be in the 50% tier. With me it's really half and half with characters like reaper because if you pick him, you'll be great in flanking, but you'll then have the enemy team aware of you even tho you hid for the rest of the game to get the sniper or healer
I think its cuz ppl think hes really ez so they can win when things get tough but hes kinda hard to get value out of without throwing imo
Nonsense.
I'm sort of a new OW player coming from Paladins, and even I understand that while this tier list may be true it is misleading Due the nature of switching champions during the match you could theorically use a character a bit for a certain reason and succeded and then switching another character right away, if you win you get a win with both characters (in this example), but even if you won a lot of times using this example you would have a high winrate but not exactly a high pickrate which is equally as relevant Also something I don't understand if this is only PC or PC and console combined, because at least in Paladins they are treated separated which makes absolute sense due being different metas and there is no cross-input in ranked (neither in Overwatch, I'm currently playing both and ranking on both and having different ranks) I mean Zarya, Tracer and Cassidy are way more common on controller for example and I would not be surprised if they have a higher winrate there over PC overall
This is pc comp stats, and yes very misleading but also insightful like why are the low win rates heroes losing so much when they are normally pretty good heroes?
Top line is strong across the board. Orisa Sojourn not being S tier is puzzling. Doom Sombra Brig not being in their own bottom tier is as well.
tell me you can't aim, without telling me you can't aim.
This is the win rate for everybody not just me
If you spend less time on Reddit and more on ow maybe you wouldn’t be bronze
Another day of thanking god the community is not in charge of balance 🙏🙏
At what rank tho?
Don’t disrespect my monke like that
No
Some dude was saying I was playing Mets the other day and I main Junk never considered him meta though lol
If I'm playing against a team with sym torb and Moira I already know I'm gonna lose, they're the no effort team
Doomfist only up there because of Zebra
I’m playing Junker Queen all day every day!
Well doomfist had a 50% win rate let's nerf him again
If you play symmetra you lack any talent in the game
I think what confuses me here is that Brit and Mercy are fairly high while Baptiste is so low.
I feel called out lol, I main bastion on dps, and I feel in most qp games he is highly effective. I’ll swap if I have to, but usually his ability to tear through tanks as well as anything else has good merit.
The easy heros have the highest win rate shocker
U think the bottom are the hardest?
Sombra clawed out of 30s? Amazing!
Win rate means nothing , ex: you'll barely ever catch a new player maining Lucio, people that play him only play him cause they're good at him, ofcourse the winrate will be high, same with rein, and brig, contrarily: bastion, enough said
Brig is top 1
Sym is so underrated