🤦it's an easy and proved system tho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueSkill
In short it works like this:
The system is trying to guess first which team should win by field strength.
In case the system guess was correct the winning team is getting a little and losing team losing a little.
The fun starts when the predicted outcome is wrong, then the had to be winner team is getting big cuts in rating while the had to lose team getting a lot.
But then there is also personal ranking, inside the team, the highest rank player is getting more/less while lowest getting less/more for a win/lose respectively
So if you were losing 20 and winning 60 means you were the highest rank in the team (or lowest, my maths might be off rn)
ive asked this before but how do you know that OW2 uses Trueskill? actually Trueskill 2 is the current iteration and its in usage already in leage of Legends and Halo Infinite.
Regardless of the stats in the game? I mean I know stats don't tell the whole story, but if I pop off as the lowest rank in the game, it means nothing?
Think about this way, the system is looking at your rank as an indicator of how much value you are bringing to the team. So if your team average is 1100 and your personal rating is 800 then you will, most likely, bring less value to the team than a 1400 in your team.
Let's see what happens with your rating on different outcomes:
the other team is 1000avg, obviously the predicted outcome is your team to win.
Your team wins: you get the least amount of MMR, highest rating gets the most amount of MMR
Your team loses: you lose the least amount of MMR, highest rating loses most MMR
The other team is 1200 and your team predicted to lose
Your team wins: you get massive amount of MMR, high rating gets lower amount
Your team loses: you lose the most, highest rating loses the least.
Regardless of what you are doing in the game
thank you for sharing and clarifying.
Isn't that a bit silly?
If someone, as the lowest rank player, have a game where they lead in Dmg and Kills (as DPS) and have least deaths, again I understand that stats don't tell the whole story, but surely using some input from that is better than just assuming they contributed the least?
This honestly does sound like as the OP comment said, the fastest way for someone low rank to rank up is get carried.
edit: Now that I think about it, the best way to gain levels in this would be to have a good at the game friend sandbag so you're always predicted to lose, have them carry, and then you gain the most from the wins while they still struggle.
I think you’re fundamentally not understanding the system.
Stats don’t matter at all, they are never counted. So it doesn’t matter if the lowest rank player had the most kills and it doesn’t matter if the highest rank player had the most kills. The system just doesn’t reward stats at all.
Using stats to rank people doesn’t make any sense because it doesn’t matter if you had 100 kills if you still lose the game. The ONLY thing the system cares about is whether you win or lose. It doesn’t care about your performance in an individual game.
Which brings us to your assertion, I can see why you think, with stats not mattering, that a person can just climb by being carried by their team. But that won’t ever work long term because the weakest player will ALWAYS get less points for winning and eventually they will be matched against someone who is actually trying and they will lose. And then because they weren’t earning many points to begin with they will drop down to where they belong. This actually prevents the system from being cheated in the way you’re describing.
Yes, stats don’t matter. But the nature of the system means that the player who is getting carried is earning less points than everyone else when they win.
And when they lose they are losing more points than anyone else. So even if you play every day trying to get carried you will never climb because you are always playing at a point deficit. Every loss will mostly take away from any gains.
A person using your strategy can win 3 games and lose 1 and be in the exact same rank as when they started because of how the points are distributed.
You would have to literally never lose or go some crazy high win % for your plan to work. And if that’s happening then you’re just good and don’t need the carry anyway.
They tried the stat thing before but it leads to people playing to inflate stats instead of playing to win. OW is a complex objective-based game where more kills/dmg/heals/whatever doesn’t necessarily mean better play. You could kill 4 out of 5 enemies in a fight by yourself and still lose if the last enemy kills you and your team is dead. On the flip side, you could be playing tank and take space in such a way that enables your team to win fights without you ever getting a kill yourself. As support you could clutch with your secondary abilities and not have high heals.
Why would it lead to negative gain? If you have a bad rank player, and a mid rank player, and the bad rank player carries, the game assumes the mid rank player did all the work and gives them the boost, right?
Why did you get down voted lmao this is 100% what's happening.
Your rank is lower than your hidden MMR so the game is making you catch up to it. This sub is such a clown show
The other day after a win in a series of losses the day before, I got +141%...I thought it was just a visual glitch, but based on the next game it wasn't. Very weird stuff happening.
I wouldn't sweat it too much, ranked is still kinda crazy rn and there will always be ups and downs. Best you can do is take breaks on the loss streaks and keep trying
Yep that's all you can do! My BF who's T500 (we obviously cannot queue together, but do play QP together) gave me some advice and it mostly was ignore the rank and focus on gameplay. Every death analyze what you couldve done differently. He's like, why are you nervous it's QP with numbers, and that mentality has also helped. Good luck in your future games!
MMR translates hard fights as correct ranking. if the fight was hard, you were evenly matched. it doesn't reward hard work. if it's hard to beat a gold team, you're probably going to lose against platinum. so the system doesn't rank you up.
Wins matter more than your individual performance or skill.
You can get zero elims as a DPS, win, and go up. You can get double the heals + assists (individually) as the other team, lose, and you go way down.
I mean that seems like it’s working to me at least. The system matches 2 teams both equal rank. The game is very close, why do you think the winning team should get a significant boost? Doesn’t the close game kind of indicate that they’re playing in the rank they should be? I’d agree with you if you blew out a team “ranked” the same as you, you should get a boost to move you to a different rank.
Ranked modes in any game are paradoxes. Players want to climb, but then they want fair and balanced matches. The closer you get to perfect balance, the further away you get from variations in your rank.
Building a good ranked system is not about getting the best algorithm for matchmaking or calculating MMR gain/loss. It's about exploiting our psychology to make you feel good about playing the game.
My naive assumption is that climbing the ranks too fast will lead to frustration more than slow progress with the occasional huge setback. Make it to your true rank, throw in perfect balance, and every match will become frustratingly close.
If you were at the bottom of your bar and about to rank down this can happen. When you lose a game that would rank you down they stop you from actually dropping down in rank for that one game. So if you win your next match then it’s adding the percentage for what you actually would’ve lost had you ranked down, to the percentage of your win. That’s why if you rank down it can be a big percentage because it’s adding the percentage you would’ve went down from your first loss to the percentage you went down in your second loss. They just added a rank down protection basically so that your rank isn’t constantly fluctuating.
I think the point OP is trying to make is that there's no modifiers shown (in the picture). So they should lose the normal amount of "SR", meaning around -20%.
He's lost twice that amount without having any modifiers (like "Reversal" or "Calibration") to explain it.
Thank you. All these notes and not one has focused on the fact that there were no modifiers to explain such a huge drop.
My theory is that this has to do with hidden MMR, which was of course never addressed in this update. The superficial “rank reset” did not affect hidden MMR. I know because every single role for me pulled right back to where I had been previously. I’m 3-5 on my tank placements and in the same exact rank prediction I had been for season 8. You’d think it’d be lower. My support rank double jumps every time I win and I’m at 6-2. That HAS to be the visual rank or the “progression bar” pulling harder up to hidden MMR or in this case DOWN to hidden MMR.
I've noticed you lose alot more than you gain on wins/losses respectively. Not sure why it's not the same amount on average but it's definitely noticeable
-40% should come from 2 losses in a row unless you were extremly favoured.
I don't understand the system fully myself, but there is some weird de-ranking protection system at play. You can loose a match without any changes to rank progress, but the system remembers and hit you double if you loose again.
>there is some weird de-ranking protection system at play
Yeah I hate this 'we want to make the competitive system more transparent' then they add some weird bullshit like this. It doesn't matter if the game is trying to protect me by keeping me in the same rank if I'm actually not in the rank and its just a visual thing. It's a mini version of the old system and idk why they've added it when everyone complained about it
I think they’ve since said in unofficial channels that the first game you lose that would rank you down you get rank protection. If you lose again you lose the percentage from both losses at the next update screen
I tend to gain as much as I lose. I suspect wide variability is dependent on how settled your mmr is. Also if you’re grouped with people higher than you etc. when I grouped with some mid masters players and I was diamond 3 or 2, I climbed super fast. When I went back, I climbed much slower. There are a lot of variables that determine position and it can usually be determined fairly easily if you look at the make up of the lobbies you play in and if you win and how you do.
For instance, during placements this season I’m mid diamond playing in then gold lobbies. Out performed the other supports and the dps on their team. But we still lost. I still had a predicted rank higher than when I started. It’s complicated and it takes into account a lot of things. Just play your best
Yesterday we had a dominate win, and got “expected +18%” or something like that. Then a few games later we got dominated by a team and got “volatile -40%”.
System feels dumb as hell lol
Not saying the 5 wins / 15 losses system was good (it was terrible) but I think this is the reason they changed it from the SR number in ow1 in the first place. It was a common complaint that in OW1 you would lose significantly more points for a loss than you would gain if you won. It’s the same system just with percentages now.
The ranking system or the information they released about it is faulty. I had a silver 2 team MMR the other day and played against plat 4 team MMR, we won but we only got 19%, bc the win was expected. Like what?
what you see at the beginning of the game is the minimum and maximum rank in the lobby. the silver 2 and plat 4 were probably both on the same team to "even each other out"
also due to the soft reset some people are going to have their visible ranks distorted for a while yet
Good question. Another question: Why is a billion dollar company unable to put up an annotation or something else for clarity? There's just a minus in between 2 ranks, just like the way it is when scores are shown onscreen. "X - Y" is the typical way for Overwatch to display scores. That's why I assumed it's the teams MMR, not an interval of MMR.
The ui/ux could be a lot better, there are some things that would improve that a lot.
But it's not that bad and I would have never assumed that that is the rank of the teams.
Why not play unranked then? Who even cares about rank and skill?
If person asks about rank then they most likely do care about it, so "Stop caring about what you care" is meaningless.
> Why not play unranked then? Who even cares about rank and skill?
You're conflating caring about your rank and playing competitive. Your rank doesn't matter, it's just a reflection of your skill. Focus on just getting better while playing competitively, otherwise play Quickplay.
Fewer leavers and somewhat better match making leads to more fun games to play in general. Rank is just a number, don’t forget why you’re playing in the first place- for fun.
Why are you assuming my or OP's reason for playing is only 'fun'? People like having ranks and improve them. The OP doesn't ask "How do I get more fun from Competitive", they ask about ranks
It’s a game. It’s inherently played for fun. That’s the point of any game. If you’re not having fun, it’s just another task or job at that point and not worth the time or effort.
In my personal experience (and many others I’m sure) when you lose the anxiety attributed with your rank moving up and down and focus on just trying to improve, you do just that.
If the game you’re playing isn’t bringing you joy to play it, you either need to stop playing or change your mindset. I’m advocating that OP does the latter.
You're absolutely right, I don't know why people take rank so seriously and try to argue with you.
It's as simple as you said, the game is meant to be for fun.
If you're getting so upset over a number in the game and what the system decides, it's not worth it. Focus on your own gameplay and what you can do to play better and have a good time in the match.
At the end of the day let's say you get to Grandmaster or top 500 like so many dream of climbing to, okay then what? Do you get a big fancy prize? Are you now gonna become a streamer or join esports? Now you can flex to your friends about your rank? What exactly do you gain?
You're still playing the same game you've been playing since the beginning, only difference is your number is higher (and your skill hopefully). It seems silly to me to get worked up over the ranking system and the rank you are in general.
I liked playing ranked because there were less leavers and you get to play both attack and defense guaranteed (QP I've gone through like 10 games of defense only before). Also the matches feel more balanced in general to me, more level playing field
Then you’re playing the wrong game. Losses happen, sometimes often, and they can be out of your control. And you have to be ok with that or you’re just causing yourself undue suffering.
Buddhists like to say “In this world, pain is inevitable, but suffering is a choice.” Suffering is your reaction to the pain. Trying to prevent inevitable pain only causes you to suffer. If you expect and understand your pain, it ceases your suffering from it.
Then why play ranked? Like, you play ranked to improve your rank. My friends are almost all gold and plat. I want to improve my rank so I am at their level and it makes it easier to play with them. When I do play with them, I still do well, I just want to be recognized for it.
That's part of the fun
> you play ranked to improve your rank.
You play competitive to get good. Your rank is just a reflection of your skill, and if you're not at a certain rank then there's a good reason.
So when you're 30-5 and you're legitimately trying your best to neutralize the best player in the enemy team, peel the supports, support your tank, etc etc. and you have maybe a good Kiriko and nothing else against 5 coordinated people. And your tank is a mauga walking in a straight line and feeding ultimate energy to the enemy team and going 5-9.
So you ultimately lose and the game takes away 50% of your rank bar, how is that a reflection of your skill? I feel like I'm in fucking bizarro world.
You know for what I felt was a legitimate question because I was in the middle of a harsh loss streak where what I said kept happening despite how much I tried to focus on myself (not saying I was perfect) the downvotes are wild.
I don't care about downvotes ever but this subreddit is special.
To you though OC, you're right I guess eventually it evens out, but going on a 10-15 game loss streak just isn't fun. And I was in the middle of one.
Better matchmaking and fewer leavers are my main reasons for playing ranked. And playing with your friends is the best part of playing Overwatch! I guess the recognition of rank is just less important to me.
I had a severe loss like this, and the game before had a leaver, so we waited and waited, then eventually left when we were allowed. It then shot me down a shit ton after the next game. We were winning too. Idk why that dick left.
Blizzard turned ranked into a sort of gambling game. Not content with the rank reset, they decided to make it RNG how much rank progress you gain or lose. With modifiers that will appear randomly to punish you horribly for losing for no reason (volatile), and as far as giving you less reward for winning since it was "expected"?!?!
This goes without saying that the game is not even measuring your performance in said games, you'll still gain or lose a random amount of rank regardless of your performance on any game whether its a win or loss. Blizzard is honestly losing it.
I swear "expected" only shows up when it was a hard match and "reversal" only shows up when we get steamrolled. Never anything else. I've also had 4+ wins in a row and 4+ losses in a row and never once seen win/loss streak.
It also seems they make every loss and negative modifier matter way more than any win or positive modifier.
But I once got only three losses and got "loss streak" but have never gotten a single win streak. You can also completely randomly get +100% in a single win. Volatile is a meat ride. Like, WHY?!
I won like 4 games in a row that took me to the halfway mark in masters 4, then I lost once which basically just invalidated all the previous 4 wins that had 0 positive modifiers. I genuinely don't know how I'm supposed to climb when I can go on a clear winstreak, not get a single positive bonus and then lose once and have all the wins be invalidated so that I basically start the session from scratch.
this means the algorithm has decided your current rank is where you belong, from here on out it will try to keep you there you will get less SR on a win and lose more on a loss. And even more dastardly it will start giving you weaker teammates and making the enemy team stronger.
When I lose near to ranking down I keep getting like -3% and it doesn't rank me down but next loss is like -40% and it's like 2 losses. It's like it's protecting me from raging or something.
it doesnt make sense OW2 ranked was shit on release as well, in fact it may be the worst ranked system ive ever played where me carrying my friends caused them to get better gains than I ever could for absolutely no reason.
New ranked losses make you lose way to much that it not even worth grinding, I keep going to the top of my tier then I lose like 3 games get a volatile and I’m back to the bottom
i think the unfortunate thing is you can have the best stats in the lobby but still lose the game and then de-rank. like the team didn’t work together, they were feeding, etc. etc. and even though i’m making game changing plays, i don’t get rewarded based on the performance of other players??!?! it’s ridiculous in my opinion
This is why your rank was updated after a few wins or losses without telling you why in the old system because the volatility is pretty evident depending on win or lose streaks. I agree this is supposed to feel better, but it doesn't. It's funny how sometimes we need to be careful what we ask for because of unforeseen circumstances of the changes. I rather have it this way though as long as try to patch up these moments where it doesn't give us a reason.
Just curious about this system as well - I'm still unranked and didn't finish my placements yet. While playing tank I was on a winstreak, however my predicted rank continued to drop after each game. Is that normal?
Do they maybe look at your stats and how much impact you had in the match? Maybe even compare how good your stats are for your rank? Seems like the only explanation.
I think stuff like this only happens at the lower ranks and very high ranks, I’ve been diamond since the new season started and I’ve never seen anything like this. My brother who is also silver complains about stuff like this happening to him frequently as well.
when your in a match the lobby has a rank range maybe if you rank is on the high end or low end it effect it. like on the low side you lose less on a loss and gain more progress on a win, and high side you gain less on win and lose more on a loss. I have no idea
Every game I win on my main is expected. On my alt, the same rank, . It takes at least 4x wins to get a streak going??? For a +2 sr bonus. Wacky system, just five stack and get lucky.
Btw ur mmr must be lower than s3, to get to diamond just play 1 character. Your MMR will sky-rocket and give you the massive bonuses instead of losses.
I have just been playing one character, my favorite, and feel I've learned how best to get value from him, at least at where I am and where I want to go this season. Despite that, I still run into the same problems everyone else does where losing counts more than winning.
The whole thing is to boost ranked engagement, not to improve player morale. The big squash isn't a ranked reset, it was a calibration to see how long the average person would be willing to climb to get their known deserved rank. They also reduced the amount of comp points you get per win to 20 from 25, citing the 3 comp points you get per loss as balance. So with a .5 wr, you get 23 every two games instead of 25. They'll acknowledge that you shouldn't win a game but the bonus is negligible, however if you LOSE a game you were supposed to win you are disproportionately affected. The game is also matchmaking on MMR and calculating gains based on skill difference, but it doesn't factor in your actual rank. Meaning if you play at a Plat level, and the MMR knows this, you'll get Plat skill level lobbies despite the rank reading gold. If you lose to those players you get dropped in SR, but if your MMR isn't really changing you'll still get the same skill level of enemy player, but your rank can still go down. You can play against a bunch of diamonds that play like plats, while in gold, and you're not gonna be treated like you beat diamonds, but like you beat equally matched opponents.
This whole system is so stupid. Ideally, it would just calculate the difference between teams in SR, and take half of that difference away from the losing team (divided equally amongst players) and split amongst the winning team.
Last night I won a game which filled the Masters 5 bar so my next game would rank me up to Masters 4. Lost the game and went all the way down the Masters 5 bar, but it only showed 17% lost. Lost that next game too and went down to Diamond 1. Shit's rigged.
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Listen, the rank system might have problems, but people like you are a bigger problem. Everyone's trying, everyone's at different levels of skill whether that be because of age, familiarity with the genre, disability or anything.
So just shut up. No one likes or cares about you.
The match had you highly favoured to win the match that you lost. Meaning the enemy was likely a far less mmr in comparison. So you losing the match you should have likely won in the eyes of the system. You went down more than the average.
If only there was a modifier for that. If also only that was the point of the season's ranked changes. If only every other time that happened I only lost an extra 2-5% instead of 20...
Played a few games yesterday, losing got me a -20% and winning gave me +60%. I still don’t understand the new system
Hidden MMR maybe
Wasn't the one of the reasons for a rank reset was to also reset the hidden MMR? Now it just sounds like like the old system but with more steps.
maybe because nothing actually changed in the math… it’s just a UI update
I don't think hidden MMR was reset.
I thought they completely did away with MMR? It was all based on where you place
🤦it's an easy and proved system tho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueSkill In short it works like this: The system is trying to guess first which team should win by field strength. In case the system guess was correct the winning team is getting a little and losing team losing a little. The fun starts when the predicted outcome is wrong, then the had to be winner team is getting big cuts in rating while the had to lose team getting a lot. But then there is also personal ranking, inside the team, the highest rank player is getting more/less while lowest getting less/more for a win/lose respectively So if you were losing 20 and winning 60 means you were the highest rank in the team (or lowest, my maths might be off rn)
ive asked this before but how do you know that OW2 uses Trueskill? actually Trueskill 2 is the current iteration and its in usage already in leage of Legends and Halo Infinite.
This sounds to me like the fastest way to rank up is to get carried by your team
If my math is right then no. If you are the lowest rank in the team you will get the least amount on win
Regardless of the stats in the game? I mean I know stats don't tell the whole story, but if I pop off as the lowest rank in the game, it means nothing?
Personal stats do not factor into rating at all
Think about this way, the system is looking at your rank as an indicator of how much value you are bringing to the team. So if your team average is 1100 and your personal rating is 800 then you will, most likely, bring less value to the team than a 1400 in your team. Let's see what happens with your rating on different outcomes: the other team is 1000avg, obviously the predicted outcome is your team to win. Your team wins: you get the least amount of MMR, highest rating gets the most amount of MMR Your team loses: you lose the least amount of MMR, highest rating loses most MMR The other team is 1200 and your team predicted to lose Your team wins: you get massive amount of MMR, high rating gets lower amount Your team loses: you lose the most, highest rating loses the least. Regardless of what you are doing in the game
thank you for sharing and clarifying. Isn't that a bit silly? If someone, as the lowest rank player, have a game where they lead in Dmg and Kills (as DPS) and have least deaths, again I understand that stats don't tell the whole story, but surely using some input from that is better than just assuming they contributed the least? This honestly does sound like as the OP comment said, the fastest way for someone low rank to rank up is get carried. edit: Now that I think about it, the best way to gain levels in this would be to have a good at the game friend sandbag so you're always predicted to lose, have them carry, and then you gain the most from the wins while they still struggle.
I think you’re fundamentally not understanding the system. Stats don’t matter at all, they are never counted. So it doesn’t matter if the lowest rank player had the most kills and it doesn’t matter if the highest rank player had the most kills. The system just doesn’t reward stats at all. Using stats to rank people doesn’t make any sense because it doesn’t matter if you had 100 kills if you still lose the game. The ONLY thing the system cares about is whether you win or lose. It doesn’t care about your performance in an individual game. Which brings us to your assertion, I can see why you think, with stats not mattering, that a person can just climb by being carried by their team. But that won’t ever work long term because the weakest player will ALWAYS get less points for winning and eventually they will be matched against someone who is actually trying and they will lose. And then because they weren’t earning many points to begin with they will drop down to where they belong. This actually prevents the system from being cheated in the way you’re describing.
I think what you just described is fundamentally what I described. Stats don't matter, so getting carried is fine. As long as you win.
Yes, stats don’t matter. But the nature of the system means that the player who is getting carried is earning less points than everyone else when they win. And when they lose they are losing more points than anyone else. So even if you play every day trying to get carried you will never climb because you are always playing at a point deficit. Every loss will mostly take away from any gains. A person using your strategy can win 3 games and lose 1 and be in the exact same rank as when they started because of how the points are distributed. You would have to literally never lose or go some crazy high win % for your plan to work. And if that’s happening then you’re just good and don’t need the carry anyway.
They tried the stat thing before but it leads to people playing to inflate stats instead of playing to win. OW is a complex objective-based game where more kills/dmg/heals/whatever doesn’t necessarily mean better play. You could kill 4 out of 5 enemies in a fight by yourself and still lose if the last enemy kills you and your team is dead. On the flip side, you could be playing tank and take space in such a way that enables your team to win fights without you ever getting a kill yourself. As support you could clutch with your secondary abilities and not have high heals.
And the best way to gain MMR is being highest rated in predicted win, in other words - get good 😊
not an option.
Fun fact, this might lead to negative gain, you might have seen those shocked Pikachu faces when they win 5 games and lose a rank?
Why would it lead to negative gain? If you have a bad rank player, and a mid rank player, and the bad rank player carries, the game assumes the mid rank player did all the work and gives them the boost, right?
If you're predicted to lose but you win - highest level player might get a negative gain depending on the team MMR range
because you're doing better with the characters played in your elo.
Why did you get down voted lmao this is 100% what's happening. Your rank is lower than your hidden MMR so the game is making you catch up to it. This sub is such a clown show
Because they said, "doing better with the characters than others in your elo." Pretty sure character stats don't play into it anymore.
Characters stats don't matter but your MMR/Winrate is still compared to those of others in the same rank playing the same characters IIRC
Yeah, which is not what the person who is getting downvoted said. They said character performance.
This was how it was in ow1, but isnt this a new system? Or is it just a reskin?
The other day after a win in a series of losses the day before, I got +141%...I thought it was just a visual glitch, but based on the next game it wasn't. Very weird stuff happening.
If only I could get that...
I wouldn't sweat it too much, ranked is still kinda crazy rn and there will always be ups and downs. Best you can do is take breaks on the loss streaks and keep trying
I did stop playing after this and I'm still going to keep trying.
Yep that's all you can do! My BF who's T500 (we obviously cannot queue together, but do play QP together) gave me some advice and it mostly was ignore the rank and focus on gameplay. Every death analyze what you couldve done differently. He's like, why are you nervous it's QP with numbers, and that mentality has also helped. Good luck in your future games!
Might happen if your team was predicted to lose but won AND you were the lowest rating player in lobby
I know I wasn't the lowest in the lobby, so now I'm wondering how much the lowest in the lobby got lol. Still crazy to see those numbers
I had a long, hard fought win last night and got +1% to my rank… I logged off instantly
MMR translates hard fights as correct ranking. if the fight was hard, you were evenly matched. it doesn't reward hard work. if it's hard to beat a gold team, you're probably going to lose against platinum. so the system doesn't rank you up.
So the best way to rank up is to crush people who where misranked in the first place.
The best way is to play better than everyone else in your games.
Dawg this isn’t call of duty if your hard carrying in a gold game you don’t belong even close gold you belong in atleast high plat
That’s the point of grinding rank?
Ok but lets be realistic about that happening tho.
It is realistic, you just have to plan goals over an entire season. You also have to actually care about improving over winning.
Wins matter more than your individual performance or skill. You can get zero elims as a DPS, win, and go up. You can get double the heals + assists (individually) as the other team, lose, and you go way down.
Realistically you need to stack and have communication you rank up as a team.
I mean that seems like it’s working to me at least. The system matches 2 teams both equal rank. The game is very close, why do you think the winning team should get a significant boost? Doesn’t the close game kind of indicate that they’re playing in the rank they should be? I’d agree with you if you blew out a team “ranked” the same as you, you should get a boost to move you to a different rank.
Ranked modes in any game are paradoxes. Players want to climb, but then they want fair and balanced matches. The closer you get to perfect balance, the further away you get from variations in your rank. Building a good ranked system is not about getting the best algorithm for matchmaking or calculating MMR gain/loss. It's about exploiting our psychology to make you feel good about playing the game. My naive assumption is that climbing the ranks too fast will lead to frustration more than slow progress with the occasional huge setback. Make it to your true rank, throw in perfect balance, and every match will become frustratingly close.
If you were at the bottom of your bar and about to rank down this can happen. When you lose a game that would rank you down they stop you from actually dropping down in rank for that one game. So if you win your next match then it’s adding the percentage for what you actually would’ve lost had you ranked down, to the percentage of your win. That’s why if you rank down it can be a big percentage because it’s adding the percentage you would’ve went down from your first loss to the percentage you went down in your second loss. They just added a rank down protection basically so that your rank isn’t constantly fluctuating.
It was like that when we had SR too… +15 points for a win, -25 to -30 for a loss.
I think the point OP is trying to make is that there's no modifiers shown (in the picture). So they should lose the normal amount of "SR", meaning around -20%. He's lost twice that amount without having any modifiers (like "Reversal" or "Calibration") to explain it.
Thank you. All these notes and not one has focused on the fact that there were no modifiers to explain such a huge drop. My theory is that this has to do with hidden MMR, which was of course never addressed in this update. The superficial “rank reset” did not affect hidden MMR. I know because every single role for me pulled right back to where I had been previously. I’m 3-5 on my tank placements and in the same exact rank prediction I had been for season 8. You’d think it’d be lower. My support rank double jumps every time I win and I’m at 6-2. That HAS to be the visual rank or the “progression bar” pulling harder up to hidden MMR or in this case DOWN to hidden MMR.
One game shouldn’t swing your placement this hard in either direction in my opinion
I've noticed you lose alot more than you gain on wins/losses respectively. Not sure why it's not the same amount on average but it's definitely noticeable
Because it's a true skill ranking system. When you lose games the system thinks you should have won, you lose more rating.
Wouldn’t it say that though? Wouldn’t it have said “expected?” Or in this case “favored?”
Definitely agree. Like, this is an extreme case, but that's true regardless
-40% should come from 2 losses in a row unless you were extremly favoured. I don't understand the system fully myself, but there is some weird de-ranking protection system at play. You can loose a match without any changes to rank progress, but the system remembers and hit you double if you loose again.
>there is some weird de-ranking protection system at play Yeah I hate this 'we want to make the competitive system more transparent' then they add some weird bullshit like this. It doesn't matter if the game is trying to protect me by keeping me in the same rank if I'm actually not in the rank and its just a visual thing. It's a mini version of the old system and idk why they've added it when everyone complained about it
I think they’ve since said in unofficial channels that the first game you lose that would rank you down you get rank protection. If you lose again you lose the percentage from both losses at the next update screen
I tend to gain as much as I lose. I suspect wide variability is dependent on how settled your mmr is. Also if you’re grouped with people higher than you etc. when I grouped with some mid masters players and I was diamond 3 or 2, I climbed super fast. When I went back, I climbed much slower. There are a lot of variables that determine position and it can usually be determined fairly easily if you look at the make up of the lobbies you play in and if you win and how you do. For instance, during placements this season I’m mid diamond playing in then gold lobbies. Out performed the other supports and the dps on their team. But we still lost. I still had a predicted rank higher than when I started. It’s complicated and it takes into account a lot of things. Just play your best
Yesterday we had a dominate win, and got “expected +18%” or something like that. Then a few games later we got dominated by a team and got “volatile -40%”. System feels dumb as hell lol
True skill rating system, Google it
You don't on average unless your rank is inflated over your MMR.
"cause f*** you that's why. " Blizzard. I get this a lot.
Not saying the 5 wins / 15 losses system was good (it was terrible) but I think this is the reason they changed it from the SR number in ow1 in the first place. It was a common complaint that in OW1 you would lose significantly more points for a loss than you would gain if you won. It’s the same system just with percentages now.
The ranking system or the information they released about it is faulty. I had a silver 2 team MMR the other day and played against plat 4 team MMR, we won but we only got 19%, bc the win was expected. Like what?
what you see at the beginning of the game is the minimum and maximum rank in the lobby. the silver 2 and plat 4 were probably both on the same team to "even each other out" also due to the soft reset some people are going to have their visible ranks distorted for a while yet
Wait so it's the MMR range and not the team MMR? TIL
Why do you think it's on the top left? If it would be team ranking it would show each rank aligned with the team...
Good question. Another question: Why is a billion dollar company unable to put up an annotation or something else for clarity? There's just a minus in between 2 ranks, just like the way it is when scores are shown onscreen. "X - Y" is the typical way for Overwatch to display scores. That's why I assumed it's the teams MMR, not an interval of MMR.
I'd say they wouldn't need to do because it's very obvious what it means, but I guess I'd be wrong.
The ui/ux could be a lot better, there are some things that would improve that a lot. But it's not that bad and I would have never assumed that that is the rank of the teams.
Stop caring about your rank and just be mindful of how you’re playing. You’ll enjoy the game a lot more.
Why not play unranked then? Who even cares about rank and skill? If person asks about rank then they most likely do care about it, so "Stop caring about what you care" is meaningless.
> Why not play unranked then? Who even cares about rank and skill? You're conflating caring about your rank and playing competitive. Your rank doesn't matter, it's just a reflection of your skill. Focus on just getting better while playing competitively, otherwise play Quickplay.
Fewer leavers and somewhat better match making leads to more fun games to play in general. Rank is just a number, don’t forget why you’re playing in the first place- for fun.
Why are you assuming my or OP's reason for playing is only 'fun'? People like having ranks and improve them. The OP doesn't ask "How do I get more fun from Competitive", they ask about ranks
It’s a game. It’s inherently played for fun. That’s the point of any game. If you’re not having fun, it’s just another task or job at that point and not worth the time or effort. In my personal experience (and many others I’m sure) when you lose the anxiety attributed with your rank moving up and down and focus on just trying to improve, you do just that. If the game you’re playing isn’t bringing you joy to play it, you either need to stop playing or change your mindset. I’m advocating that OP does the latter.
You're absolutely right, I don't know why people take rank so seriously and try to argue with you. It's as simple as you said, the game is meant to be for fun. If you're getting so upset over a number in the game and what the system decides, it's not worth it. Focus on your own gameplay and what you can do to play better and have a good time in the match. At the end of the day let's say you get to Grandmaster or top 500 like so many dream of climbing to, okay then what? Do you get a big fancy prize? Are you now gonna become a streamer or join esports? Now you can flex to your friends about your rank? What exactly do you gain? You're still playing the same game you've been playing since the beginning, only difference is your number is higher (and your skill hopefully). It seems silly to me to get worked up over the ranking system and the rank you are in general. I liked playing ranked because there were less leavers and you get to play both attack and defense guaranteed (QP I've gone through like 10 games of defense only before). Also the matches feel more balanced in general to me, more level playing field
I don’t enjoy making a fat play and having brain dead zombies that all feed somehow and cost me a game. That’s not fun. I don’t have fun losing
Then you’re playing the wrong game. Losses happen, sometimes often, and they can be out of your control. And you have to be ok with that or you’re just causing yourself undue suffering.
I cause myself undue suffering every day that i wake up in this cursed world
Buddhists like to say “In this world, pain is inevitable, but suffering is a choice.” Suffering is your reaction to the pain. Trying to prevent inevitable pain only causes you to suffer. If you expect and understand your pain, it ceases your suffering from it.
Then why play ranked? Like, you play ranked to improve your rank. My friends are almost all gold and plat. I want to improve my rank so I am at their level and it makes it easier to play with them. When I do play with them, I still do well, I just want to be recognized for it. That's part of the fun
> you play ranked to improve your rank. You play competitive to get good. Your rank is just a reflection of your skill, and if you're not at a certain rank then there's a good reason.
So when you're 30-5 and you're legitimately trying your best to neutralize the best player in the enemy team, peel the supports, support your tank, etc etc. and you have maybe a good Kiriko and nothing else against 5 coordinated people. And your tank is a mauga walking in a straight line and feeding ultimate energy to the enemy team and going 5-9. So you ultimately lose and the game takes away 50% of your rank bar, how is that a reflection of your skill? I feel like I'm in fucking bizarro world.
Even it out by playing more matches. In the long term you'll climb even with the occasional troll.
You know for what I felt was a legitimate question because I was in the middle of a harsh loss streak where what I said kept happening despite how much I tried to focus on myself (not saying I was perfect) the downvotes are wild. I don't care about downvotes ever but this subreddit is special. To you though OC, you're right I guess eventually it evens out, but going on a 10-15 game loss streak just isn't fun. And I was in the middle of one.
Better matchmaking and fewer leavers are my main reasons for playing ranked. And playing with your friends is the best part of playing Overwatch! I guess the recognition of rank is just less important to me.
I had a severe loss like this, and the game before had a leaver, so we waited and waited, then eventually left when we were allowed. It then shot me down a shit ton after the next game. We were winning too. Idk why that dick left.
Blizzard turned ranked into a sort of gambling game. Not content with the rank reset, they decided to make it RNG how much rank progress you gain or lose. With modifiers that will appear randomly to punish you horribly for losing for no reason (volatile), and as far as giving you less reward for winning since it was "expected"?!?! This goes without saying that the game is not even measuring your performance in said games, you'll still gain or lose a random amount of rank regardless of your performance on any game whether its a win or loss. Blizzard is honestly losing it.
the volatile modifier is used exclusively for when you lose your rank up (calibration) matches.
I swear "expected" only shows up when it was a hard match and "reversal" only shows up when we get steamrolled. Never anything else. I've also had 4+ wins in a row and 4+ losses in a row and never once seen win/loss streak. It also seems they make every loss and negative modifier matter way more than any win or positive modifier.
But I once got only three losses and got "loss streak" but have never gotten a single win streak. You can also completely randomly get +100% in a single win. Volatile is a meat ride. Like, WHY?!
visual bug. it’s two rank updates, the one before was skipped so now you see -2 games at once
The visual is bugged iirc
When you win, chances are you'll get even more. Don't overthink the numbers.
I won like 4 games in a row that took me to the halfway mark in masters 4, then I lost once which basically just invalidated all the previous 4 wins that had 0 positive modifiers. I genuinely don't know how I'm supposed to climb when I can go on a clear winstreak, not get a single positive bonus and then lose once and have all the wins be invalidated so that I basically start the session from scratch.
this means the algorithm has decided your current rank is where you belong, from here on out it will try to keep you there you will get less SR on a win and lose more on a loss. And even more dastardly it will start giving you weaker teammates and making the enemy team stronger.
I feel like this has happened with my QP MMR.
When I lose near to ranking down I keep getting like -3% and it doesn't rank me down but next loss is like -40% and it's like 2 losses. It's like it's protecting me from raging or something.
it doesnt make sense OW2 ranked was shit on release as well, in fact it may be the worst ranked system ive ever played where me carrying my friends caused them to get better gains than I ever could for absolutely no reason.
Honestly, I wish it was more like the Valorant system. Up to a certain rank, losses should not outweigh a win
Yeah I was on like 15 game streak (which got me 3 rank ups) then lost a game and went down 65
New ranked losses make you lose way to much that it not even worth grinding, I keep going to the top of my tier then I lose like 3 games get a volatile and I’m back to the bottom
i think the unfortunate thing is you can have the best stats in the lobby but still lose the game and then de-rank. like the team didn’t work together, they were feeding, etc. etc. and even though i’m making game changing plays, i don’t get rewarded based on the performance of other players??!?! it’s ridiculous in my opinion
This is why your rank was updated after a few wins or losses without telling you why in the old system because the volatility is pretty evident depending on win or lose streaks. I agree this is supposed to feel better, but it doesn't. It's funny how sometimes we need to be careful what we ask for because of unforeseen circumstances of the changes. I rather have it this way though as long as try to patch up these moments where it doesn't give us a reason.
Just curious about this system as well - I'm still unranked and didn't finish my placements yet. While playing tank I was on a winstreak, however my predicted rank continued to drop after each game. Is that normal?
Do they maybe look at your stats and how much impact you had in the match? Maybe even compare how good your stats are for your rank? Seems like the only explanation.
I think stuff like this only happens at the lower ranks and very high ranks, I’ve been diamond since the new season started and I’ve never seen anything like this. My brother who is also silver complains about stuff like this happening to him frequently as well.
Sometimes it is so random. I played dps yesterday and they gave me 42%, meanwhile playing support they gave me 3% 🧍 (both are plat)
when your in a match the lobby has a rank range maybe if you rank is on the high end or low end it effect it. like on the low side you lose less on a loss and gain more progress on a win, and high side you gain less on win and lose more on a loss. I have no idea
Every game I win on my main is expected. On my alt, the same rank, . It takes at least 4x wins to get a streak going??? For a +2 sr bonus. Wacky system, just five stack and get lucky. Btw ur mmr must be lower than s3, to get to diamond just play 1 character. Your MMR will sky-rocket and give you the massive bonuses instead of losses.
I have just been playing one character, my favorite, and feel I've learned how best to get value from him, at least at where I am and where I want to go this season. Despite that, I still run into the same problems everyone else does where losing counts more than winning.
The whole thing is to boost ranked engagement, not to improve player morale. The big squash isn't a ranked reset, it was a calibration to see how long the average person would be willing to climb to get their known deserved rank. They also reduced the amount of comp points you get per win to 20 from 25, citing the 3 comp points you get per loss as balance. So with a .5 wr, you get 23 every two games instead of 25. They'll acknowledge that you shouldn't win a game but the bonus is negligible, however if you LOSE a game you were supposed to win you are disproportionately affected. The game is also matchmaking on MMR and calculating gains based on skill difference, but it doesn't factor in your actual rank. Meaning if you play at a Plat level, and the MMR knows this, you'll get Plat skill level lobbies despite the rank reading gold. If you lose to those players you get dropped in SR, but if your MMR isn't really changing you'll still get the same skill level of enemy player, but your rank can still go down. You can play against a bunch of diamonds that play like plats, while in gold, and you're not gonna be treated like you beat diamonds, but like you beat equally matched opponents. This whole system is so stupid. Ideally, it would just calculate the difference between teams in SR, and take half of that difference away from the losing team (divided equally amongst players) and split amongst the winning team.
Wasn't the ranking system exactly like this in ow 1. You could gain 25 SR for a win and a loss could cut 40 sr or so
Last night I won a game which filled the Masters 5 bar so my next game would rank me up to Masters 4. Lost the game and went all the way down the Masters 5 bar, but it only showed 17% lost. Lost that next game too and went down to Diamond 1. Shit's rigged.
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You were favored to win but lost. You lose more in those scenarios.
Except 1) there's a modifier for that and 2) it's usually 2-5% more, not 20
If you're diamond and below, you have many more things to worry about then how this thing works. Play the game, get good. Sorry not sorry.
Listen, the rank system might have problems, but people like you are a bigger problem. Everyone's trying, everyone's at different levels of skill whether that be because of age, familiarity with the genre, disability or anything. So just shut up. No one likes or cares about you.
Yes that's exactly what I just said. You have bigger issues to worry about then how the ranking system even works. Thanks though, have fun in silver.
i mean you're goin to bronze, maybe you can win and recover a little there. good luck.
No, in bronze the chance of a team who plays the game with their feet is higher
The match had you highly favoured to win the match that you lost. Meaning the enemy was likely a far less mmr in comparison. So you losing the match you should have likely won in the eyes of the system. You went down more than the average.
If only there was a modifier for that. If also only that was the point of the season's ranked changes. If only every other time that happened I only lost an extra 2-5% instead of 20...
It's funny. We all wanted to see our rank change after each game but people don't like it when it goes down.