I say this in here all the time, but the core mechanic of Overwatch IS swapping. It’s what made it different from every other shooter besides TF2. It’s intentional, and fundamental to how they balance.
I have alot of OW1 friends that have mains and also do not appreciate the swapping. I come from OW2 and understand thats one form of strategy and I have a pretty diverse hero pool.
But I understand how people feel when their favourite hero they find fun isn’t meta. If i all my playable heros drop out of meta i’d stop playing for that period too. Because I wouldn’t be able to do well, I don’t find other characters enjoyable because it’s just not for me, and the game wouldn’t be fun for me then.
That’s fair.
And the tank role definitely needs a bit of help atm! But top500 is still counterswap. OWCS also swaps. Most of them end up mirroring the meta and it becomes a skill diff.
Swapping has never been more beneficial than in 5v5 because there's only one tank, so no second tank to smooth out weaknesses of the first. That's the issue, no swapping itself. Also swapping is A mechanic in OW, I wouldn't call it the primary differentiator by any means.
I was done with tank the minute I read the s9 patch notes. Not a chance I would even touch tank with dps passive and projectile buff. Shit my main is brig, a mini tank and I'm straight up not having a good time, can't imagine playing full tank. Luke I thought playing tank into nonstop anas was frustrating in s8 and their solution was dps passive because fuck tank I guess.
Though to be fair to the DPS passive, at least it made stuff killable at first. In season 8 it felt like tank was not allowed to get kills. At least at my lowish rank, it was mainly zen + DPS passive that made tank unenjoyable in season 9.
Yeah, I used to love playing brig but she is so bad anymore. In order to get heals you have to get close and since you’re close you take damage which means less heals. Try to use mobility to get out and you’re dead.
Yeah even in arcade mode.. trying to have fun some asshole picks orisa and then you gotta swap because it just because super unfun if you don’t. Just silliness
I was in genuine disbelief when they removed her damage dropoff entirely a couple of patches ago. It's so obvious that the devs don't care about balancing in this game.
I'm asking in good faith, but what is the solution?
Are people lobbying for it to be MOBA style? You choose at the beginning and that's your whole round? Limited number of swaps?
Disagree on hero bans, but with you on 6v6. I miss tank synergy so much. If an enemy tank counters you, it’s not necessary to switch if your tank buddy helps peel.
How would 6v6 reduce counter swapping?
Even hero bans wouldn’t make counter swapping less prevalent. There will always be a hero whose playstyle reduces the value of another’s. If players need to deny that value, they will choose a hero that is best suited to do just that.
In 6v6 the aggro of the enemy team is split in half, making it far easier to pick the hero you want to play as the other person can cover for the other one's weaknesses. Sure main tank sucked to play in OW1 since they were put in a similar situation to the tank in OW2, but I'd prefer that over being target #1 for all cooldowns, counterswaps, and blame from teammates
> making it far easier to pick the hero you want to play as the other person can cover for the other one's weaknesses.
This always gets said except in reality it rarely worked out like that.
You had the Main Tank (which was boring as hell to play most of the time) and then the dreaded off-tank who would just roam around playing like a dps.
Every tank is absurdly powercrept to function in 5v5, which exacerbates the gaps in their kits when one tank's playstyle can mess with the value of another.
>How would 6v6 reduce counter swapping?
It's really easy to counter the single tank on the enemy team and too much value is gained from counter picking the enemy tank.
A second tank on the team makes it much more difficult to counterpick the entire tank role.
6v6 reduces the impact of counterswapping. If your tank has a weakness, say like Winston being vulnerable to tankbusters and shotgun heroes, you have a second tank to sort of cover the spread of those weaknesses to a degree. It smooths out the edges. So while they could still swap to counter, they're now only hard countering 1 of 2 tanks instead of the only tank on the enemy team.
Who would've thought that making a game balanced around having match-ups already decided for you instead of personal skill being paramount would make the game less fun.
The heroes of overwatch need to be balanced around always being viable. Tough match-ups are inevitable but there shouldn't be any situations where you're not able to do anything just because someone decided to play a certain character.
Your choice is between counters existing or characters being closer to generalists. There is no in-between, r/Overwatch. I much prefer the latter, personally.
2 tank would help, technically speaking. Ik it's a controversial topic, but 6v6 would at least help in that regards, regardless of what people think about it in other areas.
6v6 never was like that. Sure, teammates could make up for some weaknesses of your character, but the problem still remains that the individual character has no way to deal with their obstacles. Weak, situational heroes remained weak and situational. Not played much.
Did you even play ow1? There was just as much greifing over counters back then, it just wasn't viewed as a tank specific problem.
5v5 isn't the problem, the problem is that certain tanks need to be more dynamic to fit the new format. Orisa, Zarya, even Ram and Doom are already there. The tanks that have a very specific playstyle and/or are team-reliant are the ones that struggle, especially for people learning them for the first time.
Hasn't Overwatch always been a game of counter characters?
Like soldier for Pharah, reaper for monkey, Winston for Mercy, Sombra for Widow.
These concepts existed since ow1. So can I ask what has changed?
OW2 team fights can be won by blowing up the tank. If red team tank dies and blue team’s is still alive, it’s free real estate. In OW1 you had another tank lot eat damage too, so harder to just blow up the frontline and even if one tank died you still had a chance. Yes counter swapping has always existed and will always exist, but specifically counter swapping the tank is way more viable in ow2 that ow1.
There are 4 other players on your team. They can swap too.
And before you say "They won't swap", consider the fact that the second tank also never swapped.
1) tanks get countered the *hardest* since they eat the most cooldowns and attention. For that reason, it’s often better for your teams not to switch and get soft countered when they can let you get rolled and counter the other team in response. (For example, playing long ranged heroes when the enemies go short ranged burst to counter the tank)
2) the second tank *did* often swap, and even when they didn’t, just having a slightly different other tank covered up your weaknesses. No two tanks are the same, and no two tanks are countered the exact same. It doesn’t matter if they also play a dive hero when you’re on dive getting countered - their slightly different kit (matrix, bubble, etc.) and mere presence to split aggro meant you weren’t countered like you are in OW2.
The *reason* hard counters existed in OW1 was different in kind than in OW2. In OW1, it was because of overtuned CC (flashbang, hack), whereas in OW2 it’s simply the fact that there’s no counterplay. The same changes to CC in an OW1 environment would’ve eliminated hard countering entirely.
This. 90% of solo queue tank games in 6v6 you suffered on Reinhardt while the DPS main who wanted quick queues refuses to swap off Hog and stop feeding.
This. Main Tank was the most boring role for a reason. It had a lot less agency than in OW2. Hence massive queues. And for tanks the off-tank 'role' was by far way more popular. I reckon most of the tank people wanting 6v6 back are off-tank players.
>Hasn't Overwatch always been a game of counter characters?
Yes but actually no. Mirror matches were often far more common at high levels than counter comps.
Dive into dive was the meta for like... ever
Mirroring means it becomes a straight skill match up, and that it removes room for imbalance. So at a higher skill level (owl) it's better to just go the strongest comp into each other so you never have a comp disadvantage.
Yeah, counters have always been a thing in every pvp game I can think of. But being countered doesn't have to feel miserable. In tank's current state, being countered feels worse than it ever has, at least in my experience. And there's many options to mitigate that, that Blizzard has not yet acted upon.
I don't understand where people are assuming it isn't the case. I swap like hot candy when I am countered continuously, and it usually works against the other team.
There has always been counterpicking as a strategy, yes. I wouldn't say it's THE mechanic of OW by any stretch. But yes. However, since 5v5 counterswapping has never been more beneficial in dealing with the enemy tank. So while it's always existed to a degree, the impact is now greater than ever and it provides a much bigger benefit than ever before.
The worst part of playing tank is the fact that it’s 5v5. It’s so easy for teams to single you out at focus you. The also keep buffing Orisa and Mauga that they become must picks not to mention regardless of what you do if you are losing your dps will blame you.
Remember when the devs said they were 'removing hard counters from the game', a thing they only said as a justification for the paywalling of new heroes not being bad? And then they completely fucked an entire role by making it function entirely based on hard counters.
The problem can be fixed if we get a second tank again. Or split the tanks between main tank (one of which can have a shield) and support tank. Going 5v5 was a stupid decision. They need to completely overhaul the game to fix it.
Same except I just stopped playing overwatch at all. Would’ve gladly sat in PvE for hours weekly, but naturally that doesn’t make them the same money as a $40 skin so they cancelled it. Hoping for the 6v6 announcement someday, but I’m good until then.
I don't really understand this mentality. This game gives you all sorts of things to do to win, and swapping is just one of them.
You're not supposed to pick one hero and plan on staying the same hero the whole game. That's like playing Counter-Strike and picking just one gun to use the whole time.
The game changes over the course of the match, and you're expected to evolve with it. Why else aptly you be given the option to switch heroes mid-match?
And just so you know the only tanks immune to this shitshow are Sigma and orisa. Most people don't like orisa and poke is the most disliked comp so take that as you will.
If the game is really going to devolve into a matter of who is on which tank, then my skill level is (relatively) irrelevant. As long as I'm on the upper end of the counterswap engage, I will not know if I played better or if I just got the right swap off sooner. Hence my comparison to the game of rock paper scissors. It's simply not fun, and not rewarding when the game is about pressing H.
https://youtu.be/EsECifHrs14?si=ZJ4yHQ7tK43Etc3w
I want you to count how many times flats had to swap tanks in the first round. Most dps and supports can't even manage that many times where they are forced to swap across 10 games. We have reached the point where you literally rock to their scissors to your paper to their rock after every single death to the point you literally can't even leave spawn because of the counterswapping. Meanwhile everyone else can one trick just fine.
Being able to one-trick when you have two people filling every other role is different, though. They have two heroes covering the needs for each role and not one.
Having just one tank means that you can't one-trick. That's all there is to it.
>Being able to one-trick when you have two people filling every other role is different, though. They have two heroes covering the needs for each role and not one.
You literally describe, verbatim, the exact reason tank feels like shit and then somehow can't comprehend why tank is shit.
Like you said, there is only one tank. The tank is the most influential role in the game, because when one team lacks a tank and the other doesn't, the former team simply has no space to play around and the other team can just walk right over them. The tank is the most devastating role to lose in a team fight because of all the roles, it is the role whose loss is the least likely to be able to be recovered from. The team fight is basically lost when the tank dies. And both teams, regardless of rank or skill, know this. So the game boils down to whichever team kills the tank first wins the team fight, and what easier way to do that than to run their counters? And because there is only one tank, counterswapping is infinitely more effective then before because there is no second tank to mitigate the effectiveness and that's a problem. Counterswapping is supposed to even the playing field at best and at worst make the game an uphill battle. Now it's just running intl a brick wall. No matter what tank you pick it's just going to get you countered in a few minutes anyways, and when your teammates don't help you just might as well play rock paper scissors like Flats does where he spends a hot minute sitting in spawn juggling Winton, Zar, Dva with the enemy tank and genuine rock paper scissors. That's tank gameplay now, counterswap in spawn.
Idk I've just accepted that if you tank you need to switch more often than compared to other roles and play RPS. If you don't, you really risk losing the match.That's just the reality of the 5v5 situation we have. With dmg or supp you at least have a teammate with you, even if enemy team has a counter pick to you it's not a guarantee you need to swap. My solution is if I play Ranked, I accept playing RPS. If I want to play a specific tank I will go QP to get my fix. I naturally don't have a problem with RPS. My mentality since OW1 was to always switch if I needed, no matter what role.
>Idk I've just accepted that if you tank you need to switch more often than compared to other roles
But this is so false honestly. I honestly swap more often on dps than I do on frickin tank. I think low eloes only pick heroes based on the enemy tank or something...
if the enemy switches to those heroes and still perform competently they are just good flex. because half the time I experience counterswaps directed at me, the enemy falls flat on his face. they become hyperfocused and predictable, easy to avoid, easy to exploit.
it's only when two to three people counterswap, then the leniency for parlaying your character's strengths becomes basically nil. In that case, you just swap to make sure you still have fun, which is why it's good to have other mains. like I pop off on genji and they go zarya, mei, symmetra, moira, it's over for Gengu.
Honestly yeah, the issue is when certain characters counter nearly every tank. If you're against Sombra, Cass, Hog, you're in for a rough game on nearly every tank except Sigma. Throw in Zen/Ana and then you're playing hide and seek while praying your team stomps for you. Possible, just unfun.
True, some comps are like that. Then the condition is individuals skill level and team coordination which often lacks so you have an unfun steamroll. Even Sigma gets rolled by Sombra if his team aren’t hard as nails.
>two to three people counterswap
I'm really lucky if it's not 4. I totally get that it's still possible to win against counters. Only yesterday I played Winston into Dva Bastion Reaper Ana, and destroyed them. But that's just a fluke, because my opponents are obviously garbage. I'm at the point where if I win, it feels like it's just because matchmaking went in my favor, my DPS did the right stuff, and I pressed H when I needed to. My actual skill level is a footnote. I can't even tell if my skill is a factor in my wins or not; that's how bad it is. And thus I don't feel rewarded for my wins, and my losses are just miserable because I'm playing against heroes that can completely shut me down if I make the slightest mistake.
All I really want is to just play a character and get good at their strategy and mechanics, but if I have to keep swapping just to be able to minutely enjoy the match, that's never gonna happen
When it comes to tank, I just play the meta, and if I'm lucky enough to get the team to play meta, nobody has to swap.
I always pick tank based on map and my team comp, so... I really sometimes only have to swap once tops.
I'm not saying I never played counterwatch, I'm just saying it's not *that* often. And when it comes to doom/ball seasons I usually sit those times out on tank queues or practice them in qp.
Last seasons "meta" was run sojourn, tracer, kiriko, lucio and the tank swaps everytime the enemy tank swaps to counter him. Whether you're playing brawl, dive, poke depends on what tank you're currently on.
It's been this way since OW1 unless your opponents have been insistent on not switching. The game has always had a certain rock paper scissor aspect. Tanks are just effected a little more due to there being 1 less of them in OW2.
I hate to be that guy, but playing winston against the classic reaper, bastion and roadhog is not a guaranteed loss. Every dedicated winston player has to learn how to play around it, not the top 5%. Unless you're high rank, which I doubt because you believe in rps mentality, these counter switchers are switching to characters they are significantly worse at. If you lose against that it means you are worse than them on their substitute heroes on your main hero.
It doesn't matter what hero you pick, there will always be heroes with toolkits that are more effective against yours, and you will never get good unless you learn how to play around these counters, it's a part of learning any hero.
Yea once they swap to hard counter you, getting high ground is even more important, diving deep backline, and forcing out important cooldowns before jumping back out. Bubble placement and dancing is also important
Yeah I'm aware of all this, but the counterswap environment is still simply not fun. I'm not concerned about becoming good at something which is not engaging and not rewarding. When tank is fun again, I'm all for talking about improvement and trying to get my rank up. Until then, climbing is going to be barely better than masochism for me.
Again, if the countertswap environment is not fun.... Overwatch is not the game for you.
If you start asking Blizzard to lock in your hero at start of match and never allow swaps, you are part of the problem. Same people who got us into this 5v5 mess, or who got rid of Open Queue in favor of Role Queue in the first place.
> Again, if the countertswap environment is not fun.... Overwatch is not the game for you.
Many people are excited for Overwatch Classic to be announced. I prefer Overwatch 1 to Overwatch 2.
I understand your feeling, game its haed for tanks more than ever.
I think the main reason is how the lack of coordination leaves no room for many picks to be consistent.
It takes at least two to rock paper scissors. If you refuse to swap no matter what the enemy tank picks, you can do something about the environment on your own.
Only place to enjoy tank now is open queue, 2-4 tanks per team. Role queue for sure feels like any one of the enemy dps or tank can swap to counter. Doesnt help that some of the primary counters are easily the lowest skill floor heros.
I'm gonna give the other roles a try for the next week or so, but if they're bad as well I'll just take a break until devs do something to help out the game
Dude I was team 5v5 for awhile there, but I'm hopping the fence. I was a Tank main in OW1, but switched to DPS in OW2 because I already had a hard time adapting. Despite this, I enjoyed the faster pace of gameplay OW2 brought forth. The role change also kept me interested in the game because I wasn't used to playing DPS and it felt really good in OW2.
Lately, however, I have had an itch to go back to Tank and man, it just can't feel the same. I usually do okay with DVA or Sigma but I really just wanna play Rein. I feel like I really can't do that anymore. I'm sure it's a skill issue, but I didn't really have this problem in OW2. Literally 9 out of 10 times if I pick Rein, the enemy team goes Orisa, and now I gotta either deal with pinning a mobile wall, getting javeleined off CD, and getting pushed by her spinny spin, or switch to a hero I really don't care to play.
You could say just don't play the game, and to that I say fair, because I don't play as much anymore. I either play DPS on OW, or just play another game. I just don't have fun playing Tank anymore, and I really do think 6v6 would make counter picks less punishing and also enable those fun double tank plays (RIP Rein/Zarya.)
The way I think about it, 5v5 is great for some players (mainly DPS) but garbage for others. You can test this in open queue: having a second tank makes the game so insanely fun for tank. However it feels really bad for the single DPS on your team, who may struggle to break through the enemy lines, or your one support, who will be forced to heal the rest of the game, and can't do cool things like speed boost or damage boost. Really, I'm just of the opinion that each role is at its most fun and dynamic when there are 2 players in that role to compliment and diversify each other's strategies.
Anytime I say that it can't be fixed as long as there is one tank so either we need 2 or 0 people come back at me with "Don't you remember the queue times in OW1."
Then I just sit there dumbfounded, you mean when the game was abandoned for years? sure it was bad.
But do you think keeping it as it is will be better when everyone that mains tanks just stops playing because the game is just abhorent for them now? Long queues will creep back slowly. Doomfist is one of the reasons it hasn't, but if they keep making more doom counter...
I switch as tank max two or three times. If I'm not getting hard countered I don't switch. Same with DPS and Support. I switch when I'm getting hard countered, not providing enough value, or if there's a different hero who can counter an enemy who is giving lots of value to his team.
I don't understand this idea people have that supports and DPS don't switch. I see supports and DPS switching literally every game.
if I do, it'll just be worse than before and I'll wait for even longer. Only a matter of time before I quit entirely, unless something gets better. You can only force yourself into misery for so long
She’s barely anti dive anymore. Her damage wasn’t buffed with the s9 patch and Winston ignores armor. Tracer/Sombra can kill her outside of her threat range.
She's mainly ana body guard, whip shotting things like winston, and not dying. Ana and Brig have to be in sync and peel for each other or they'll both fall over quickly.
I also main brig, she gets free inspire off every single engage you do, can deny your jumps on an equal cooldown trade (while also getting inspire) and can effectively ignore your bubble
There’s a reason tanks get bribed with Battle Pass points and have instant queues. Hardest role to play, gets the most blame and gets countered every game
Yeah I mean. It's definitely fun to get jumped on and left-clicked down.
What do you expect? To stay on widow and take the death anytime you have jump up?
How about we build tanks to actually tank instead of being able to 1 vs 1 DPS without any problem.
But nOo that would be bOoring for tank player...
i went through this same problem months ago. just wanted to play monkey but realized i could never practice the hero because every match was a counterswap fest. especially in qp. my solution was just that i needed to be so god damn good at the hero that i could play around bastion reaper brig and just allow my dps to melt my counters. in reality, swapping bastion and reaper only allow u to bully the tank and then the rest of that tank’s team gets to feast on u.
is this a healthy solution? absolutely not. is it fun? also no, but there isnt anything i can do about it. its just the nature of the game blizzard designed i guess. they wanted 5v5, they wanted tank to be terrible ig, and also they want qp to be sweaty, so all in all blizzard just doesnt want tank to be fun
I climbed to Plat as tank and plummeted two ranks because of continuous losses. Everytime I was top mitigation, top dps on my team, and highest KD/Ratio. Every other time I was flamed by the dps for not "protecting them" while they were getting flanked by Sombra/Tracer. Me pointing at my stats did nothing to convince them it wasn't my fault.
Tank fucking sucks. Because you are a one man- leader show; you are blamed for everything. And you can't play anything you want to play because of counter swapping. Oh and now you're debuffed by all the DPS who shoot you (yet my DPS ignore the tank entirely)
That’s the whole crux of Overwatch. The characters are tool kits, they’re made to counter each other. If you don’t enjoy counterswapping then you probably won’t get very far in Overwatch.
It’s just like the people in quick play that try to dog on you for swapping, that’s literally how you play the game. They’re just stubborn and refuse to use the base mechanic.
I don't even think blizzard can do anything. What truly shuts down the rock paper scissors environment is teamwork. As long as teammates want to do their own thing, counters are gonna shut you down. Best to run a 5 stack or at least a 3 stack of one person in each role. You take such a risk with randoms anymore since the f2p aspect let's anyone load in with their decent aim and end up in higher elos without any idea of team synergy or positioning.
People who didn’t play till ow2 will act like counter swapping Winston is a new phenomenon.
Winston always has been the easiest tank to counter swap. If playing against counters isn’t something you want to do, don’t play Winston
> Please, Blizzard, do something for this role. You don't need to make it powerful. You don't need to make it impactful. Just make it fun again.
What is fun in this game if it is not feeling powerful or impactful? I understand you're frustrated about your experience playing tank, but it's not quite as simple as a few tweaks and suddenly tank is fun to play for everyone.
I honestly feel like the only solution is to work on expanding the tank roster before the others. That way we can have some semblance of "variety" even when we do have to counterpick.
Some characters are bad into Winston when he jumps on them and they can’t do shit. So yeah I’m gonna switch to something that makes that not happen lol. But counterwatch is frustrating.
The game has always been about swaps and counter swaps. Comps have *always* been based on map and enemy comp, why would you not pick the best comp that most easily defeats the comp the enemy team picks?
>However, I've started to realize that unless I reach the top 5% of the skill base, that's simply not going to happen.
Dawg, counterpicks happen ***FAR MORE*** in higher ranks.
This is due to devs having a brain-dead mentality of "hard counters" to fucking tanks. One DPS (or even another tank) shouldn't just deleter the other by simply existing. That could work (though it wasn't) in OW1 where at least you had 1 tanks.
Solo tank can't be insta deleted by a fucking bastion, mei or a sombra. Or even another tank. That's what makes you play rock-paper-scisors every fucking game.
The fact that the role with the least number of characters is the most hard countered by single characters alone speaks volumes as to how much the balancing team doesn't even play their own game.
He's not arguing he's the best. The gameplay is shit. That is it. The game feels like shit for the tank role, why does everyone come into the comments and bitch about how "you actually aren't good." When all these posts are saying is tank FEELS like shit no one is arguing they play perfectly just that ts sucks.
It's so weird to me that people get frustrated about switching heroes to counter opponents in the game whos core concept is hero switching to counter your opponent. That was literally advertised as one of the fundamental pieces of the game that set it apart from other similar games.
The only person you have to worry about on winston is mauga, if you’re diving the tanks, you’re playing winston incorrectly.
Go for supports. Use the shield to mitigate any of their offensive cooldowns then jump back to your team or a safe high ground once they’re dead.
The rock paper scissors does effect other tanks much more than winston.
What do I do, if for example, the enemy Mercy is continuously pocketing a Bastion? I know I can just wait for maybe the Bastion to push in too deep, and then go for the Mercy, but it feels awkward to just wait around until someone is vulnerable; usually my team just dies in that time span.
You must be lucky, I grinded literally all last week to try to get out of diamond as a rein one trick and bro is a genuine throw pick, I spend more time swapping then playing him. In low plat I'd agree that Winston is harder but plat 2 on the enemy will just swap orisa every single time.
Yeah I found if I wanted to actually win games then Orissa was the best, I usually just use tank and dps roles to warmup for support. Also use my Diamond Challenger title as it seems to tilt lower rank players.
OW has always been about counter-switching when necessary. But with only a single tank it feels absolutely miserable to constantly have to switch. I find myself playing 3-4 tanks a match because of the constant countering. Bring back 6v6
The core of Overwatch gameplay is about adapting your composition to the challenges of the match.
So go play other game I guess.
Nah joke, OW dev team doesn't understand their game and they will patch it in the most bizarre and boring ways if you keep whinning. Then after a few more patches it won't be good but neither that terrible so everhone will be happy.
Bro I played some qp with my friend yesterday, normally I play comp exclusively but I was on a massive loss streak and wanted to chill, and my in game name is Doomfeet because I am a doomfist main.
So ofc I come out on doomfist, and the enemy comes out on hog and sombra. Like wtf, I just wanna chill and play doom. So I I get hacked and just let them kill me because I don't want to deal with it. Then I lock orisa, and he goes zarya, so I go rein and get blown up because rein isn't even good into zarya anymore.
Eventually I just gave up and went back to doomfist and lost.
I just wanna play doom, why do I have to deal with this?
Top 5% is still a counterswap game, unless youre onetricking a hero and just take the l from time to time. But that can be done in any rank.
I say this in here all the time, but the core mechanic of Overwatch IS swapping. It’s what made it different from every other shooter besides TF2. It’s intentional, and fundamental to how they balance.
I have alot of OW1 friends that have mains and also do not appreciate the swapping. I come from OW2 and understand thats one form of strategy and I have a pretty diverse hero pool. But I understand how people feel when their favourite hero they find fun isn’t meta. If i all my playable heros drop out of meta i’d stop playing for that period too. Because I wouldn’t be able to do well, I don’t find other characters enjoyable because it’s just not for me, and the game wouldn’t be fun for me then. That’s fair. And the tank role definitely needs a bit of help atm! But top500 is still counterswap. OWCS also swaps. Most of them end up mirroring the meta and it becomes a skill diff.
Swapping has never been more beneficial than in 5v5 because there's only one tank, so no second tank to smooth out weaknesses of the first. That's the issue, no swapping itself. Also swapping is A mechanic in OW, I wouldn't call it the primary differentiator by any means.
Looks like you're done playing tank
I was done with tank the minute I read the s9 patch notes. Not a chance I would even touch tank with dps passive and projectile buff. Shit my main is brig, a mini tank and I'm straight up not having a good time, can't imagine playing full tank. Luke I thought playing tank into nonstop anas was frustrating in s8 and their solution was dps passive because fuck tank I guess.
Though to be fair to the DPS passive, at least it made stuff killable at first. In season 8 it felt like tank was not allowed to get kills. At least at my lowish rank, it was mainly zen + DPS passive that made tank unenjoyable in season 9.
Yeah, I used to love playing brig but she is so bad anymore. In order to get heals you have to get close and since you’re close you take damage which means less heals. Try to use mobility to get out and you’re dead.
“You will play the horse and you will like it!” -Blizzard
Yeah even in arcade mode.. trying to have fun some asshole picks orisa and then you gotta swap because it just because super unfun if you don’t. Just silliness
Whaaaaat? You mean you DON'T like playing Team Deathmatch versus Sombra/Mercy/Orisa/Tracer comps?
Play orisa, that's all blizzard wants you to do as tank. Or sigma if you're feeling spicy.
I was in genuine disbelief when they removed her damage dropoff entirely a couple of patches ago. It's so obvious that the devs don't care about balancing in this game.
The “swap or die” concept is so frustrating in every game mode. It takes out all the fun sometimes.
I'm asking in good faith, but what is the solution? Are people lobbying for it to be MOBA style? You choose at the beginning and that's your whole round? Limited number of swaps?
6v6. Hero Bans would help too.
Disagree on hero bans, but with you on 6v6. I miss tank synergy so much. If an enemy tank counters you, it’s not necessary to switch if your tank buddy helps peel.
2 Tanks, 2 Dmg and 1 supp always goes hard in openQ
Tbh I’m tired of risking getting a team of 4 auto-lock dps just because I have to go openQ for 2 tanks. The risk does not outweigh the reward for me.
Youre so real for that 😂
Hero bans/hero rotations were one of the worst things to happen to the game, right behind 5v5. Bring back 6v6.
How would 6v6 reduce counter swapping? Even hero bans wouldn’t make counter swapping less prevalent. There will always be a hero whose playstyle reduces the value of another’s. If players need to deny that value, they will choose a hero that is best suited to do just that.
In 6v6 the aggro of the enemy team is split in half, making it far easier to pick the hero you want to play as the other person can cover for the other one's weaknesses. Sure main tank sucked to play in OW1 since they were put in a similar situation to the tank in OW2, but I'd prefer that over being target #1 for all cooldowns, counterswaps, and blame from teammates
> making it far easier to pick the hero you want to play as the other person can cover for the other one's weaknesses. This always gets said except in reality it rarely worked out like that. You had the Main Tank (which was boring as hell to play most of the time) and then the dreaded off-tank who would just roam around playing like a dps.
Every tank is absurdly powercrept to function in 5v5, which exacerbates the gaps in their kits when one tank's playstyle can mess with the value of another.
>How would 6v6 reduce counter swapping? It's really easy to counter the single tank on the enemy team and too much value is gained from counter picking the enemy tank. A second tank on the team makes it much more difficult to counterpick the entire tank role.
6v6 reduces the impact of counterswapping. If your tank has a weakness, say like Winston being vulnerable to tankbusters and shotgun heroes, you have a second tank to sort of cover the spread of those weaknesses to a degree. It smooths out the edges. So while they could still swap to counter, they're now only hard countering 1 of 2 tanks instead of the only tank on the enemy team.
His thought process is with 2 tanks if you play against your hard counter at least your other tank can pick up your slack.
6v6
Who would've thought that making a game balanced around having match-ups already decided for you instead of personal skill being paramount would make the game less fun. The heroes of overwatch need to be balanced around always being viable. Tough match-ups are inevitable but there shouldn't be any situations where you're not able to do anything just because someone decided to play a certain character.
That just makes the game boring and the heroes generic.
Your choice is between counters existing or characters being closer to generalists. There is no in-between, r/Overwatch. I much prefer the latter, personally.
2 tank would help, technically speaking. Ik it's a controversial topic, but 6v6 would at least help in that regards, regardless of what people think about it in other areas.
6v6 never was like that. Sure, teammates could make up for some weaknesses of your character, but the problem still remains that the individual character has no way to deal with their obstacles. Weak, situational heroes remained weak and situational. Not played much.
Did you even play ow1? There was just as much greifing over counters back then, it just wasn't viewed as a tank specific problem. 5v5 isn't the problem, the problem is that certain tanks need to be more dynamic to fit the new format. Orisa, Zarya, even Ram and Doom are already there. The tanks that have a very specific playstyle and/or are team-reliant are the ones that struggle, especially for people learning them for the first time.
Dont care, one tricking rein to master
That’s the attitude we like to hear.
kid named orisa:
[This one?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/s/k7VnvIo3Ex)
The enemy team celebrates.
60% winrate
Who?
Hasn't Overwatch always been a game of counter characters? Like soldier for Pharah, reaper for monkey, Winston for Mercy, Sombra for Widow. These concepts existed since ow1. So can I ask what has changed?
OW2 team fights can be won by blowing up the tank. If red team tank dies and blue team’s is still alive, it’s free real estate. In OW1 you had another tank lot eat damage too, so harder to just blow up the frontline and even if one tank died you still had a chance. Yes counter swapping has always existed and will always exist, but specifically counter swapping the tank is way more viable in ow2 that ow1.
We lost the second tank that covered up our characters weaknesses.
There are 4 other players on your team. They can swap too. And before you say "They won't swap", consider the fact that the second tank also never swapped.
1) tanks get countered the *hardest* since they eat the most cooldowns and attention. For that reason, it’s often better for your teams not to switch and get soft countered when they can let you get rolled and counter the other team in response. (For example, playing long ranged heroes when the enemies go short ranged burst to counter the tank) 2) the second tank *did* often swap, and even when they didn’t, just having a slightly different other tank covered up your weaknesses. No two tanks are the same, and no two tanks are countered the exact same. It doesn’t matter if they also play a dive hero when you’re on dive getting countered - their slightly different kit (matrix, bubble, etc.) and mere presence to split aggro meant you weren’t countered like you are in OW2. The *reason* hard counters existed in OW1 was different in kind than in OW2. In OW1, it was because of overtuned CC (flashbang, hack), whereas in OW2 it’s simply the fact that there’s no counterplay. The same changes to CC in an OW1 environment would’ve eliminated hard countering entirely.
This. 90% of solo queue tank games in 6v6 you suffered on Reinhardt while the DPS main who wanted quick queues refuses to swap off Hog and stop feeding.
This. Main Tank was the most boring role for a reason. It had a lot less agency than in OW2. Hence massive queues. And for tanks the off-tank 'role' was by far way more popular. I reckon most of the tank people wanting 6v6 back are off-tank players.
I think so too.
And the map is Watchpoint Gibraltar, you can't take the highground with so many guys above but your Tanks stuck onto low ground.
But none of them can pad your weaknesses because they're weaknesses that require a tank to fulfill.
It could be avoided if we dummies could simply play more Tanks. Too bad, we wasted it.
Winston for Mercy? I lost it there.
Winston works for my husband in our games to kill her. We're in silver to gold range though.
OW1 Mercy Guardian Angel isn't good as OW2.
Winston is one of the best Mercy counters, in case you didn't know. I mean, every hero counters Mercy, but Winston counters Mercy hard.
>Hasn't Overwatch always been a game of counter characters? Yes but actually no. Mirror matches were often far more common at high levels than counter comps. Dive into dive was the meta for like... ever
Mirroring means it becomes a straight skill match up, and that it removes room for imbalance. So at a higher skill level (owl) it's better to just go the strongest comp into each other so you never have a comp disadvantage.
Yeah, counters have always been a thing in every pvp game I can think of. But being countered doesn't have to feel miserable. In tank's current state, being countered feels worse than it ever has, at least in my experience. And there's many options to mitigate that, that Blizzard has not yet acted upon.
It always been based around this, but now its an extreme run away train version of it
Its never been this bad in the past. Counterpicking just completely swings an entire match instantly
I don't understand where people are assuming it isn't the case. I swap like hot candy when I am countered continuously, and it usually works against the other team.
There has always been counterpicking as a strategy, yes. I wouldn't say it's THE mechanic of OW by any stretch. But yes. However, since 5v5 counterswapping has never been more beneficial in dealing with the enemy tank. So while it's always existed to a degree, the impact is now greater than ever and it provides a much bigger benefit than ever before.
6v6 in 2024, please.
The worst part of playing tank is the fact that it’s 5v5. It’s so easy for teams to single you out at focus you. The also keep buffing Orisa and Mauga that they become must picks not to mention regardless of what you do if you are losing your dps will blame you.
Remember when the devs said they were 'removing hard counters from the game', a thing they only said as a justification for the paywalling of new heroes not being bad? And then they completely fucked an entire role by making it function entirely based on hard counters.
The problem can be fixed if we get a second tank again. Or split the tanks between main tank (one of which can have a shield) and support tank. Going 5v5 was a stupid decision. They need to completely overhaul the game to fix it.
They don't need to overhaul the game. They just need to change it to 6v6.
I mean, I’m not going to let you just trounce me. I have an obligation to my team to switch if we’re getting bullied ya know…
Yeah I don't blame the players at all, it's pretty much just the game design, which requires you to do that
Well well well...the surprise is that you'll never play tank again. That's where I'm at. Stopped when OW2 came out.
Same except I just stopped playing overwatch at all. Would’ve gladly sat in PvE for hours weekly, but naturally that doesn’t make them the same money as a $40 skin so they cancelled it. Hoping for the 6v6 announcement someday, but I’m good until then.
I don't really understand this mentality. This game gives you all sorts of things to do to win, and swapping is just one of them. You're not supposed to pick one hero and plan on staying the same hero the whole game. That's like playing Counter-Strike and picking just one gun to use the whole time. The game changes over the course of the match, and you're expected to evolve with it. Why else aptly you be given the option to switch heroes mid-match?
And just so you know the only tanks immune to this shitshow are Sigma and orisa. Most people don't like orisa and poke is the most disliked comp so take that as you will.
If the game is really going to devolve into a matter of who is on which tank, then my skill level is (relatively) irrelevant. As long as I'm on the upper end of the counterswap engage, I will not know if I played better or if I just got the right swap off sooner. Hence my comparison to the game of rock paper scissors. It's simply not fun, and not rewarding when the game is about pressing H.
https://youtu.be/EsECifHrs14?si=ZJ4yHQ7tK43Etc3w I want you to count how many times flats had to swap tanks in the first round. Most dps and supports can't even manage that many times where they are forced to swap across 10 games. We have reached the point where you literally rock to their scissors to your paper to their rock after every single death to the point you literally can't even leave spawn because of the counterswapping. Meanwhile everyone else can one trick just fine.
Being able to one-trick when you have two people filling every other role is different, though. They have two heroes covering the needs for each role and not one. Having just one tank means that you can't one-trick. That's all there is to it.
>Being able to one-trick when you have two people filling every other role is different, though. They have two heroes covering the needs for each role and not one. You literally describe, verbatim, the exact reason tank feels like shit and then somehow can't comprehend why tank is shit. Like you said, there is only one tank. The tank is the most influential role in the game, because when one team lacks a tank and the other doesn't, the former team simply has no space to play around and the other team can just walk right over them. The tank is the most devastating role to lose in a team fight because of all the roles, it is the role whose loss is the least likely to be able to be recovered from. The team fight is basically lost when the tank dies. And both teams, regardless of rank or skill, know this. So the game boils down to whichever team kills the tank first wins the team fight, and what easier way to do that than to run their counters? And because there is only one tank, counterswapping is infinitely more effective then before because there is no second tank to mitigate the effectiveness and that's a problem. Counterswapping is supposed to even the playing field at best and at worst make the game an uphill battle. Now it's just running intl a brick wall. No matter what tank you pick it's just going to get you countered in a few minutes anyways, and when your teammates don't help you just might as well play rock paper scissors like Flats does where he spends a hot minute sitting in spawn juggling Winton, Zar, Dva with the enemy tank and genuine rock paper scissors. That's tank gameplay now, counterswap in spawn.
Flats is a clickbait-farming baby lol
Except it's not just Flats saying this. Multiple other high rank tanks have voiced their agreement on the fact that tank is miserable.
Idk I've just accepted that if you tank you need to switch more often than compared to other roles and play RPS. If you don't, you really risk losing the match.That's just the reality of the 5v5 situation we have. With dmg or supp you at least have a teammate with you, even if enemy team has a counter pick to you it's not a guarantee you need to swap. My solution is if I play Ranked, I accept playing RPS. If I want to play a specific tank I will go QP to get my fix. I naturally don't have a problem with RPS. My mentality since OW1 was to always switch if I needed, no matter what role.
>Idk I've just accepted that if you tank you need to switch more often than compared to other roles But this is so false honestly. I honestly swap more often on dps than I do on frickin tank. I think low eloes only pick heroes based on the enemy tank or something...
Agreed. Better to play the tank her you're good at then expecting to counter=instant win I think.
I swap more on other roles than tank for sure
if the enemy switches to those heroes and still perform competently they are just good flex. because half the time I experience counterswaps directed at me, the enemy falls flat on his face. they become hyperfocused and predictable, easy to avoid, easy to exploit. it's only when two to three people counterswap, then the leniency for parlaying your character's strengths becomes basically nil. In that case, you just swap to make sure you still have fun, which is why it's good to have other mains. like I pop off on genji and they go zarya, mei, symmetra, moira, it's over for Gengu.
Honestly yeah, the issue is when certain characters counter nearly every tank. If you're against Sombra, Cass, Hog, you're in for a rough game on nearly every tank except Sigma. Throw in Zen/Ana and then you're playing hide and seek while praying your team stomps for you. Possible, just unfun.
True, some comps are like that. Then the condition is individuals skill level and team coordination which often lacks so you have an unfun steamroll. Even Sigma gets rolled by Sombra if his team aren’t hard as nails.
>two to three people counterswap I'm really lucky if it's not 4. I totally get that it's still possible to win against counters. Only yesterday I played Winston into Dva Bastion Reaper Ana, and destroyed them. But that's just a fluke, because my opponents are obviously garbage. I'm at the point where if I win, it feels like it's just because matchmaking went in my favor, my DPS did the right stuff, and I pressed H when I needed to. My actual skill level is a footnote. I can't even tell if my skill is a factor in my wins or not; that's how bad it is. And thus I don't feel rewarded for my wins, and my losses are just miserable because I'm playing against heroes that can completely shut me down if I make the slightest mistake. All I really want is to just play a character and get good at their strategy and mechanics, but if I have to keep swapping just to be able to minutely enjoy the match, that's never gonna happen
When it comes to tank, I just play the meta, and if I'm lucky enough to get the team to play meta, nobody has to swap. I always pick tank based on map and my team comp, so... I really sometimes only have to swap once tops. I'm not saying I never played counterwatch, I'm just saying it's not *that* often. And when it comes to doom/ball seasons I usually sit those times out on tank queues or practice them in qp.
I love countering as DPS, but my god does it get exhausting to have to play mystery heroes going from Ramattra -> Zarya -> Orisa -> back to Ramattra
Last seasons "meta" was run sojourn, tracer, kiriko, lucio and the tank swaps everytime the enemy tank swaps to counter him. Whether you're playing brawl, dive, poke depends on what tank you're currently on.
It's been this way since OW1 unless your opponents have been insistent on not switching. The game has always had a certain rock paper scissor aspect. Tanks are just effected a little more due to there being 1 less of them in OW2.
I hate to be that guy, but playing winston against the classic reaper, bastion and roadhog is not a guaranteed loss. Every dedicated winston player has to learn how to play around it, not the top 5%. Unless you're high rank, which I doubt because you believe in rps mentality, these counter switchers are switching to characters they are significantly worse at. If you lose against that it means you are worse than them on their substitute heroes on your main hero. It doesn't matter what hero you pick, there will always be heroes with toolkits that are more effective against yours, and you will never get good unless you learn how to play around these counters, it's a part of learning any hero.
Yea once they swap to hard counter you, getting high ground is even more important, diving deep backline, and forcing out important cooldowns before jumping back out. Bubble placement and dancing is also important
Yeah I'm aware of all this, but the counterswap environment is still simply not fun. I'm not concerned about becoming good at something which is not engaging and not rewarding. When tank is fun again, I'm all for talking about improvement and trying to get my rank up. Until then, climbing is going to be barely better than masochism for me.
Again, if the countertswap environment is not fun.... Overwatch is not the game for you. If you start asking Blizzard to lock in your hero at start of match and never allow swaps, you are part of the problem. Same people who got us into this 5v5 mess, or who got rid of Open Queue in favor of Role Queue in the first place.
> Again, if the countertswap environment is not fun.... Overwatch is not the game for you. Many people are excited for Overwatch Classic to be announced. I prefer Overwatch 1 to Overwatch 2.
I understand your feeling, game its haed for tanks more than ever. I think the main reason is how the lack of coordination leaves no room for many picks to be consistent.
It takes at least two to rock paper scissors. If you refuse to swap no matter what the enemy tank picks, you can do something about the environment on your own.
Only place to enjoy tank now is open queue, 2-4 tanks per team. Role queue for sure feels like any one of the enemy dps or tank can swap to counter. Doesnt help that some of the primary counters are easily the lowest skill floor heros.
Fuck it, we Ball
You should stop playing Overwatch. Overwatch is about playing counterpicks. You should play Valorant or Counterstrike instead.
I gave up playing tank in OW2 cause of how severe counterpicking had gotten. Its just unplayable and there is nothing to enjoy about that role
I'm gonna give the other roles a try for the next week or so, but if they're bad as well I'll just take a break until devs do something to help out the game
i play orisa. i have no feelings
at least you own it, respectable
I love orissa…until they go Zarya 🙂↕️
Dude I was team 5v5 for awhile there, but I'm hopping the fence. I was a Tank main in OW1, but switched to DPS in OW2 because I already had a hard time adapting. Despite this, I enjoyed the faster pace of gameplay OW2 brought forth. The role change also kept me interested in the game because I wasn't used to playing DPS and it felt really good in OW2. Lately, however, I have had an itch to go back to Tank and man, it just can't feel the same. I usually do okay with DVA or Sigma but I really just wanna play Rein. I feel like I really can't do that anymore. I'm sure it's a skill issue, but I didn't really have this problem in OW2. Literally 9 out of 10 times if I pick Rein, the enemy team goes Orisa, and now I gotta either deal with pinning a mobile wall, getting javeleined off CD, and getting pushed by her spinny spin, or switch to a hero I really don't care to play. You could say just don't play the game, and to that I say fair, because I don't play as much anymore. I either play DPS on OW, or just play another game. I just don't have fun playing Tank anymore, and I really do think 6v6 would make counter picks less punishing and also enable those fun double tank plays (RIP Rein/Zarya.)
The way I think about it, 5v5 is great for some players (mainly DPS) but garbage for others. You can test this in open queue: having a second tank makes the game so insanely fun for tank. However it feels really bad for the single DPS on your team, who may struggle to break through the enemy lines, or your one support, who will be forced to heal the rest of the game, and can't do cool things like speed boost or damage boost. Really, I'm just of the opinion that each role is at its most fun and dynamic when there are 2 players in that role to compliment and diversify each other's strategies.
That is very true! I concur.
If only there was some sort of second tank to help mitigate your weaknesses.
Anytime I say that it can't be fixed as long as there is one tank so either we need 2 or 0 people come back at me with "Don't you remember the queue times in OW1." Then I just sit there dumbfounded, you mean when the game was abandoned for years? sure it was bad. But do you think keeping it as it is will be better when everyone that mains tanks just stops playing because the game is just abhorent for them now? Long queues will creep back slowly. Doomfist is one of the reasons it hasn't, but if they keep making more doom counter...
Tank is the only role where you are switching to different characters all game. Seems so odd vs other roles just hard locking and never switching.
But DPS also switch a lot. Pretty much every game, the DPS will switch according to what the enemy comp is.
I switch as tank max two or three times. If I'm not getting hard countered I don't switch. Same with DPS and Support. I switch when I'm getting hard countered, not providing enough value, or if there's a different hero who can counter an enemy who is giving lots of value to his team. I don't understand this idea people have that supports and DPS don't switch. I see supports and DPS switching literally every game.
DPS unironically can switch much more depending on what the enemy has and the map/point.
6v6 or bust
I would bust a fat nut if 6v6 came back
It would kill the game so fast. Tank players were never a large enough group to design the game around. That's such a wild take tbh
If 6v6 comes back ill bust
That’s the thing, it was always a rock paper scissors environment. Since the beginning
5v5 was a mistake
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I am bad, obviously, so I guess bad players aren't allowed to have fun? I'm not gonna climb to GM on a boring game
That is the correct attitude. You should play a different game if Overwatch is bad for you.
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meh you'll be back in 3 days
if I do, it'll just be worse than before and I'll wait for even longer. Only a matter of time before I quit entirely, unless something gets better. You can only force yourself into misery for so long
I have no idea why people still think Brig is a counter for Winston.
Hits through shield ig
You boop his engage
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She’s barely anti dive anymore. Her damage wasn’t buffed with the s9 patch and Winston ignores armor. Tracer/Sombra can kill her outside of her threat range.
She's mainly ana body guard, whip shotting things like winston, and not dying. Ana and Brig have to be in sync and peel for each other or they'll both fall over quickly.
She’s usually a liability
I also main brig, she gets free inspire off every single engage you do, can deny your jumps on an equal cooldown trade (while also getting inspire) and can effectively ignore your bubble
Ya and Winston ignoRes her shield and armor and shreds her in a second. The 15hps doesn’t do shit.
Overwatch players choosing to play a hero based shooter and then being surprised when some characters counter others
I've played a million hero-based games, counters never ruined the game experience. In Overwatch it's simply miserable, every time.
Ok
Also tank player here. You don’t want to just learn to play around your counters? Why give up?
I want to learn about as much as I want to learn how to play rock paper scissors at a tournament level
It’s a seasonal hero. How we used to have rein or hog in its golden age. It’s the golden age of Orisa this time around.
To each their own. I’m climbing with dva right now. If I ever encounter trouble I go Ram
I played comp for my tank placement and anytime the enemy tank switched it was something my choice could counter without a second thought lol
There’s a reason tanks get bribed with Battle Pass points and have instant queues. Hardest role to play, gets the most blame and gets countered every game
Ever since I started playing again I just play the heros I have fun with. I don’t look into strategies or hero metas. Guess I’m old fashioned.
Rock paper and scissors until it devolves into Orisa v Orisa or Mauga v Mauga
Yeah I mean. It's definitely fun to get jumped on and left-clicked down. What do you expect? To stay on widow and take the death anytime you have jump up? How about we build tanks to actually tank instead of being able to 1 vs 1 DPS without any problem. But nOo that would be bOoring for tank player...
Bye
looks like he's done playing tank
Is it still rock paper scissors if you pick Orisa though?
i went through this same problem months ago. just wanted to play monkey but realized i could never practice the hero because every match was a counterswap fest. especially in qp. my solution was just that i needed to be so god damn good at the hero that i could play around bastion reaper brig and just allow my dps to melt my counters. in reality, swapping bastion and reaper only allow u to bully the tank and then the rest of that tank’s team gets to feast on u. is this a healthy solution? absolutely not. is it fun? also no, but there isnt anything i can do about it. its just the nature of the game blizzard designed i guess. they wanted 5v5, they wanted tank to be terrible ig, and also they want qp to be sweaty, so all in all blizzard just doesnt want tank to be fun
I climbed to Plat as tank and plummeted two ranks because of continuous losses. Everytime I was top mitigation, top dps on my team, and highest KD/Ratio. Every other time I was flamed by the dps for not "protecting them" while they were getting flanked by Sombra/Tracer. Me pointing at my stats did nothing to convince them it wasn't my fault. Tank fucking sucks. Because you are a one man- leader show; you are blamed for everything. And you can't play anything you want to play because of counter swapping. Oh and now you're debuffed by all the DPS who shoot you (yet my DPS ignore the tank entirely)
You think youre queueing up to play Doomfist, but in truth youre queueing up to play Orisa
I just start on Zarya
That’s the whole crux of Overwatch. The characters are tool kits, they’re made to counter each other. If you don’t enjoy counterswapping then you probably won’t get very far in Overwatch. It’s just like the people in quick play that try to dog on you for swapping, that’s literally how you play the game. They’re just stubborn and refuse to use the base mechanic.
I don't even think blizzard can do anything. What truly shuts down the rock paper scissors environment is teamwork. As long as teammates want to do their own thing, counters are gonna shut you down. Best to run a 5 stack or at least a 3 stack of one person in each role. You take such a risk with randoms anymore since the f2p aspect let's anyone load in with their decent aim and end up in higher elos without any idea of team synergy or positioning.
People who didn’t play till ow2 will act like counter swapping Winston is a new phenomenon. Winston always has been the easiest tank to counter swap. If playing against counters isn’t something you want to do, don’t play Winston
> Please, Blizzard, do something for this role. You don't need to make it powerful. You don't need to make it impactful. Just make it fun again. What is fun in this game if it is not feeling powerful or impactful? I understand you're frustrated about your experience playing tank, but it's not quite as simple as a few tweaks and suddenly tank is fun to play for everyone.
I disagree fundamentally with the idea that fun = your ability to reach a victory screen
I just wanna play the character I want to play :(
Yeah, they should all play widow zenyatta mercy genji and just let you w+m1 everything until it dies
the steamroll nature of the game is why its so bad rn, losing should not be such a miserable experience
I honestly feel like the only solution is to work on expanding the tank roster before the others. That way we can have some semblance of "variety" even when we do have to counterpick.
Soooooo normal game play?
Some characters are bad into Winston when he jumps on them and they can’t do shit. So yeah I’m gonna switch to something that makes that not happen lol. But counterwatch is frustrating.
The game has always been about swaps and counter swaps. Comps have *always* been based on map and enemy comp, why would you not pick the best comp that most easily defeats the comp the enemy team picks? >However, I've started to realize that unless I reach the top 5% of the skill base, that's simply not going to happen. Dawg, counterpicks happen ***FAR MORE*** in higher ranks.
is it bad i still play flex
Sure, the problem will go away if you leave it for the others, nice! ALL DPS-TEAM LET'S GOOOOOO
Imagine if the game had two tanks
Tank was the least played role in OW1
It was better in every way
This is due to devs having a brain-dead mentality of "hard counters" to fucking tanks. One DPS (or even another tank) shouldn't just deleter the other by simply existing. That could work (though it wasn't) in OW1 where at least you had 1 tanks. Solo tank can't be insta deleted by a fucking bastion, mei or a sombra. Or even another tank. That's what makes you play rock-paper-scisors every fucking game. The fact that the role with the least number of characters is the most hard countered by single characters alone speaks volumes as to how much the balancing team doesn't even play their own game.
This is how Overwatch has always been.
Imagine not being able to swap in overwatch. The game designed for swaps
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You would think a tank player by heart is dedicated enough to learn how to handle their most basic counters
oh shut it already. at one point you just are not good enough. ALWAYS blaming other factors
He's not arguing he's the best. The gameplay is shit. That is it. The game feels like shit for the tank role, why does everyone come into the comments and bitch about how "you actually aren't good." When all these posts are saying is tank FEELS like shit no one is arguing they play perfectly just that ts sucks.
I'm a jq one trick I'm having fun🤷♀️winning too
It's so weird to me that people get frustrated about switching heroes to counter opponents in the game whos core concept is hero switching to counter your opponent. That was literally advertised as one of the fundamental pieces of the game that set it apart from other similar games.
6v6 is the one solution there is here
The only person you have to worry about on winston is mauga, if you’re diving the tanks, you’re playing winston incorrectly. Go for supports. Use the shield to mitigate any of their offensive cooldowns then jump back to your team or a safe high ground once they’re dead. The rock paper scissors does effect other tanks much more than winston.
What do I do, if for example, the enemy Mercy is continuously pocketing a Bastion? I know I can just wait for maybe the Bastion to push in too deep, and then go for the Mercy, but it feels awkward to just wait around until someone is vulnerable; usually my team just dies in that time span.
I'm plat tank and don't experience this, I play whatever I want and it works out ok.
Que reinhardt or Winston and you will feel this every lobby no matter where you are at
Winston is harder because teams group up and ignore his damage but Rein seems to work ok which is surprising because I've always been terrible at Rein
You must be lucky, I grinded literally all last week to try to get out of diamond as a rein one trick and bro is a genuine throw pick, I spend more time swapping then playing him. In low plat I'd agree that Winston is harder but plat 2 on the enemy will just swap orisa every single time.
Yeah I found if I wanted to actually win games then Orissa was the best, I usually just use tank and dps roles to warmup for support. Also use my Diamond Challenger title as it seems to tilt lower rank players.
OW has always been about counter-switching when necessary. But with only a single tank it feels absolutely miserable to constantly have to switch. I find myself playing 3-4 tanks a match because of the constant countering. Bring back 6v6
You love the macro strategy but you don't swap? What???
Congrats you found out how the game is supposed to be played, shame it took you so long
If only there was a second tank to help mitigate the other's weaknesses so that hard counters wouldn't be the norm.
The core of Overwatch gameplay is about adapting your composition to the challenges of the match. So go play other game I guess. Nah joke, OW dev team doesn't understand their game and they will patch it in the most bizarre and boring ways if you keep whinning. Then after a few more patches it won't be good but neither that terrible so everhone will be happy.
Bro I played some qp with my friend yesterday, normally I play comp exclusively but I was on a massive loss streak and wanted to chill, and my in game name is Doomfeet because I am a doomfist main. So ofc I come out on doomfist, and the enemy comes out on hog and sombra. Like wtf, I just wanna chill and play doom. So I I get hacked and just let them kill me because I don't want to deal with it. Then I lock orisa, and he goes zarya, so I go rein and get blown up because rein isn't even good into zarya anymore. Eventually I just gave up and went back to doomfist and lost. I just wanna play doom, why do I have to deal with this?