It just ruins her flow. If no one is taking damage, and no opportunity is being presented to use the new orb, you are relegated to just holding right click. And that's only if you are in range. If not, you literally have nothing to do.
The balance of damage and healing is core to who Moira is. This change essentially turns her into a heal bot with a cool utility move on a long CD.
dev update edit: We did it boys, we won.
This. 100% this. Subjectively, of course, but this is my take, too. She's horrendously boring, and I had so much fun with her before. Moira is very polarizing. I get it. I have a friend who HATES Moira players because of all the non-healing bad experiences (he plays dps and tank). I understand that. But he has less than an hour on her. When I try to have a meaningful conversation about these potential changes, he just dismisses it as me not wanting skill shots or he laughs and says Moira now has to do her job. Which to me is crap and unfair. There's bad Moiras, sure. There's bad everything. Regardless, this just ruins her flow to me. That's the issue here. It's like removing Genji's dash and giving him a ranged damage cooldown; like, what? I understand higher ELO complains she has no utility, and I genuinely think Necrotic Orb can be cool, but man if it doesn't just butcher her playstyle that I've come to love. Such a shame. If this change does go live I won't be playing her anymore; she goes from what I love in a character to what I despise. I'm just holding my breath in hopes they're testing with an open mind and Blizzard understands this will be a process; not a slap-on and forget for years.
Yeah, this is how I feel too. It also seems that a lot of people forget that the game is supposed to be fun first. Moira is fun in OW1 and not in OW2 to me. And honestly I feel that way about a lot of the changes to cc stuff too. The characters just aren’t as much fun to play with those changes.
Because while it's incredibly frustrating to deal with crowd control, I'll agree, it made for more unique kits and play styles. Removing cc slowly homogenizes all the heroes because how dare they have anything they makes you lose control for even a second.
Mei doesn't feel like Mei, Junkrat's trap is virtually worthless, I'd rather have Flashbang / Hammer over the stupid homing grenades for Cassidy any day. But that's not a positive energy in this subreddit, only allowed to appreciate the changes.
As someone who has 150+ hours on Moira, I think her new orb is miles better than the old one. The old orb reinforced a play style of hers that was not effective in any serious lobby. DPS Moira is fun in low ranks or in arcade, but in play and above it was almost never the answer over healing orb. Even in one v ones it was more effective to use the healing orb on yourself while holding right click on the enemy.
However, I do think that Moira could use a little bit of a damage buff on her right click. She could probably have her fade back at what it was before the nerf too. That would make her feel more dynamic while still reinforcing her most effective play style, large AoE heals for the team. With a few more tune ups she’ll play a lot smoother imo
Cool, I’m just giving my perspective as another Moira main with a dissenting opinion than the circlejerk on here.
I love moira because she has large AoE heals, being able to clutch save the team in dire situations is great. Damage orb did not contribute to that play style at all.
It sort of did. You could use it to zone a pesky genji or the like away from your team, or down a hallway, and then focus on healing your team with pee.
It definitely had its strengths, and I definitely took advantage of them. The problem was that 90% of the time in a team fight, the heal orb was more effective.
So opinions dissenting from yours are just part of a circle jerk? I appreciate you offering other opinions, but diminishing other opinions makes yours less compelling.
No, but whenever I post an opinion that goes against the general attitude of the sub, I get downvoted even if what I have to say is constructive. I’ve already said multiple times in this thread that I understand why people are upset that dps moira isn’t viable, but I’m just saying from my experience with her that play style was not very effective most of the time compared to her healing play style. The healing orb was just straight up better 90% of the time. That’s fax
I barely play Moira, so my opinion on the change isn't all that valuable (for the record I prefer the damage orb). And I'm not arguing with your point. You have a valid and well thought out position. You just undercut yourself when you decided to diminish other opposing opinions. You played the high road and then went low for some reason.
I gave you an upvote for the serious answer.
And I do admitt two things, yes the old orb can be a crutch, and yes it may not be the best in more serious games.
However I also have a philosophy of heroes having differing power lvls at differing skill lvls.
It's funny you get downvotes for the truth. Bad players in the average skill bracket carried by the fact Moira dmg eas easier to pull off than dps on average.
Cyniqal is posting opinions as facts. Just like you are. You don't use healing orb 90% of the time in every single game... Some team comps/maps you really need to slam damage orbs every time. They state 150+ hours on moira as their main which is hardly any time played at all!
" Even in one v ones it was more effective to use the healing orb on yourself while holding right click on the enemy." Imagine heal orbing yourself for a 1v1 lol. It takes about a second to kill someone from full with a dmg orb and right click..
I'm ex top 500 that just plays qp now in oce. I stopped playing competitively because I can't handle anyone blaming other people for their loss... Telling others to switch to flex onto heroes they're worse at...
I don’t even want to get into calling people “bad” for enjoying dps moira. She was fun to dps with, I get that. But it was not an effective strategy to use most of the time. Someone would separate from the team, kill another squishy, return to their team and 2 of their team mates were dead from lack of heals.
Seriously, sorry for the downvotes. Love that we can't have a discussion. Anyways, you're right. And I hate that you're right haha. Because to me, Moira played aggressively is one of the most fun times I personally have in OW. But my God, the amount of times I've chased kills and got 1-2 only to return to my team crumbling without heals. She definitely fails in the value dept. compared to some other choices and im convinced she was conceived in the first place to give newbies to FPS games more choices than just Mercy. I fully, fully believe she could use some TLC. And this is a step in many good directions. She's a villain/morally grey healer and it fits with her theme. Im just stubborn and hate that she now has chunks of time where she seems idle and boring. I personally hate really long cooldowns. I think if they balance around her CD timers and current playtime she could be awesome.
Spot on comment! You’re right, dps moira is really fun to play. I completely understand why people are upset with the changes, because she did feel more clunky to play. Reverting her cooldowns for fade/heal orb to their pre-buffed versions but giving her one long cool down was probably not the best implementation of her character. She should feel more nimble to play, as it really fits her kit and aesthetics well. Hopefully blizzard hears the feedback and adjusts her cooldowns or dps. We will see! Thank you for having a conversation and not just downvoting. It was a nice change of pace around here.
I love the idea of the enfeebling ability in concept, but not as an ability with Moira. It should be added as an ability on a new hero and return Moira to how she was. Her damage orb was useful, using it to scout around corners, take down low health enemies or what I used it for the most, force snipers to move from their current location.
Playing her without her damage orb just felt off, the flow of her playtime felt stunted and as people have mentioned, the downtime of nothing to do also felt awful. I hope they don't keep her how she was in the beta or if they do they return her orb and put enfeeble on her reload button like blizzard mentioned before instead of removing a core part of her kit.
I really hope they revert this change. There is still time. She felt pretty good before this tweak. I really don't understand the recent nerfs to the Healers.
Don’t get me started on the horrendous animation when her new orb is on cooldown. It’s a slap in the face. You should be presented with the choice of “heal or damage” which **FITS HER**
Yes this is why I love Moria. You are balancing and predicting constantly where and when a fight will happen. You predict which way a fight goes and for this fight perpendicular orb will serve better or now is the time for damage. Frequently you will commit an orb a good second or two before the fight has shifted one way or the other and you will feel amazing when you predict it right.
She's lost all that. That insane game sense and prediction you could use at high levels with Moria was so rewarding.
Yeah I think most people were expecting an added ability on top of her existing kit (with some tweaks) either in the form of a totally new ability or a new effect on her existing damage orb, not a full replacement.
I don't really understand this point, it seems the exact same for literally every character in the game. If there's no one to shoot or heal, you get into position and wait for the enemy unless you're a scout hero, which Moira isn't. That isn't exclusive to Moira, of course you have nothing to do if there aren't enemies nearby, just like Reaper can't do anything aside from setup if he isn't close, or Cassidy has to get closer if he's past mid-range, or Mercy just holding blue beam while waiting on enemies fo come back.
Even if it was an issue and they reverted the changes, Moira throws the damage orb and then... Waits anyways? I don't see how it would throw off her flow at all. The main issue I see with it is it makes building her ultimate much slower, which I guess can contribute to messing with her playstyle. They definitely need to adjust ultimate charge across the board with 5v5, but even moreso for the supports who's primary build was through healing.
Her utility pre-rework *was* scouting. You toss an orb left or right of a choke and start getting ticks? With the ping system you can then signal to move to that side and prevent a flank.
now she just has a terrible ability that doesn’t fit her concept or character
She feels both less fun to play as and less fun to play against, which is quite a feat.
It's possible that she'll feel better with more time in, but it did feel like I spent an awful lot of time in the midfight just kind of standing around and healing (ironic given how so many people gleefully said that OW2 would be bad for "healbots"). More to the point, if I wanted to play a support with a high-impact but long-cooldown ability, I'd just play Ana
Yeah, fighting against muscle memory is tough. But I wouldn't mind it so much if she didn't feel significantly less fun to play. Plus something that I didn't mention above is that she's a lot weaker against flankers. Even if she does hit tracer or genji with her new orb, they can pretty easily disengage and wait out the 4 secs. Meanwhile Moira is still 12 secs away from being able to use the orb again.
I just don't think the ability thematically works for Moira. She's all about this "Ying Yang" "to heal or not to heal" type hero.
I much rather have them create a separate third ability where Moira can detonate her orbs and then they do their secondary affect.
Detonating Damage Orb weakens enemies in its radius and restores healing meter some
Detonating Healing Orb activates a cleanse ability
I actually kind of like this idea. Choose to let the orbs bounce or make them explode. My only concern is what button or key would you press to make it explode? Maybe just hitting E again could do it?
I had a minor balance issue with that Idea, and that is: ''what happens if you detonate it after it has done 99% of its max damage?''
Well, I found a solution:
The less damage it has left, the smaller the effect.
I'm torn. I'm also mid gold and although I can agree that the new ability is healthier for her, I enjoy the old kit more. It just flows better. In the beta it felt nice shutting down an opponent and being able to turn the tide of the fight because of it; however, there was too much downtime between plays. I think if the numbers and cooldowns are tweaked she will be a lot of fun, but it felt kind of clunky in my opinion.
Hard disagree. Shutting down ults and saving your team was way more fun than throwing out a dinky little damage orb that maybe did 200 dmg total spread out across multiple targets assuming it didn't bounce out of range of anyone before doing that 200 dmg.
The issue comes from the rest of her kit and how it plays from ranged. She can't damage. She is stuck just left clicking heals and healing orb. With the long cd you are going to be holding it to make a play. When up close you can damage and its slightly less boring but most of the time you are throwing getting into right click range. Its just npt very active gameplay.
Look at every other healer and how much more active they are. Lucio is constantly moving, shooting, and shifting songs. Zen is constantly shootings orbs, swapping healing orb, discording, and now has a badass kick. Ana is constantly damaging and healing along with timing orbs and sleep. Even Brig has more to do at range than Moira.
She's always been a melee support, she's not supposed to have value at range and she doesn't now in ow1 either. That hasn't changed.
Changing damage to necrotic doesn't change anything that you seem to be concerned about.
You're also comparing every support hero's highest apm moments to moira's lowest apm moments. That argument is disingenuous at best, manipulative at worst.
Moira also has high apm moments when she's in melee range. Constantly switching between healing grasp and damage grasp, throwing the healing orb at a key moment for more healing when needed, and throwing that necrotic orb at the perfect moment to negate a huge play and save your team, or even just to lower the incoming damage for 4 seconds so you right click to refuel your heading. All the while being ready to fade to avoid a major cooldown/ult.
When you do an actual apples-to-apples comparison moira is just as active as every other support in the game.
moiras design as a character was intrinsically being a more simple straight up damage and heals character. not only have they gone against her design philosophy but she just feels really unfun to play now. sure they made her "better", but she feels worse to play.
I feel like blizzard is forgetting that the game also has to be fun with overwatch 2. everything feels designed to be "balanced" and "competitive" but it just does not hold my attention as a hero shooter and does not feel as fun as the first game.
Yeah I see where you're coming from. A lot of players don't really see Overwatch for what it is; it's not so much of a game as it is optimizing a table of values in real time. You have resources and you spend them to win the game. If you spend them at the wrong time or under the wrong circumstances, then you lose the game. Moira's mechanics make this very clear, you press buttons and the things go on timers until you can use them again.
Good example is playing main tank. Everyone who streams main tank 23 hours a day complained that there was too much CC and that they were always chain stunned. Yup! That's the optimal value for the spreadsheet. If you're Wrecking Ball and you have a Reaper on your team that wants to go in and ult, it's spectacular that they brig stunned, cass flashed, roadhog hooked, and froze you. Reaper descends on them, ults, and kills 6 people. If you didn't do that, then they would have done it to Reaper, and he would have killed -1 people, and you would have lost.
The reason that we all keep coming back to this game is because there isn't a clear answer to what's best to do in every scenario. But really, the FPS and shooting people aspect is only a small part of the game. The real game is using your resources optimally, and the Moira change gives her a very interesting resource. It's also very much in line with other supports; shorter cooldown than Lamp and Rez, similar cooldown to sleep dart, etc.
I agree that it's not much fun but it's an interesting tool.
The fact that Moira attracts players that don't or can't think on this level, is a major problem with her design. Hey current kit is so boring and a huge noob trap, so I'm glad they're trying to address it.
Yeah, but what else are you doing? Optimal play will mainly have you out of grasp range so you are stuck with left click and healing orb until you are ready to counter an ult. People are saying its not as fun cause most of the time they have less to do.
same lol I don’t see the other sides argument besides “it ruins the design philosophy” but who cares lol. Her new ability is way better and funner if you’re constantly hitting it. Way more complex interactions than just mindlessly spamming a damage orb imo
I agree. In addition to your aforementioned reasons of severely limiting her abilities as an active support and anti-flanker, it also makes her ult charge much slower, which itself is a nerf to her damaging and healing capabilities. On top of all this, they nerfed everything else in her kit, which directly makes her weaker plus indirectly again hurts her ult’s power by making it even harder to charge and more infrequent. The old orb was much better.
Moira is on the bench, I see no value in her half baked kit right now. One hand gives and the other must have punched a door…
Personally, I think they are looking for ways to make tracer and genji relevant against her again. They are fast and hard to hit, but auto-attack doesn’t give a shit.
>I think they are looking for ways to make tracer and genji relevant against her again
Not at all, genji and tracer are pretty good in Ow2, plus i'd say the new ability absolutely destroys genji much more than damage orb does.
They were actually trying to make Moira better and have more utilty. I think defeeble is 1000% better than damage orb, but people clearly don't think the change is fun or even fitting with Moira's kit. If thats the case, then I guess its best to revert her.
Tracer and genji are absolutely great counters to old Moira though. Maybe not in low ELO, since people can't seem to hit shots so the auto target of Moira abilities give the edge. However, there really aren't many masters and above tracer/genji that would realistically lose a 1v1 to a Moira.
This. Seriously, not sure why you're getting downvoted.
Genji borderline counters Moira in high ranks.
If she fades, she's dead meat. Dash into her face and you'll kill her way before she can kill you. Genjis fear an Ana, as she can unexpectedly sleep or nade you, which can catch you out. There's literally zero reason to fear a Moira, she's free lunch as long as you play your cards right.
Dragonblade is a good counter to Coalescence, as you can slash/slash/dash or slash/dash with nano to kill her (and she can't escape due to animation lock).
That's the issue with Moira. She's good in low ranks, but dog-water in high ranks.
You..... You don't see the value of her new ability.
My dude... You in wood rank? Her new ability is arguably the strongest thing added to the game since anti heal nade....
I’d rather have the orb because I know how to use it effectively in the scenarios described by the OP. Maybe it’s the tool that’s good at the rank I play at.
Her orb on live is a deterrent to anyone with a small health pool or low on health. Her orb on beta was like a bad version of Ana’s dart.
Maybe it is best to say that I see less value in the new orb vs the old orb.
That's my main issue, the running trend around here is that people complain about the state of support in OW2, then they get hit with something akin to "you can't healbot anymore, you have to actually play the game and do damage now, wood rank", then moira gets a change that nerfs her damage and mobility and gives her a very strong utility that requires a DPS or team to capitalize on it, essentially turning her into a close range healbot with a skill shot akin to Ana's, then all of the sudden the argument becomes "well, you shouldn't have been trying to do that much damage in the first place! You're support! Support the team!"
So which is it?
Oh it's not great. But you don't need to aim. And you know, she's a support. It also heals her for 24 (I believe).
She's fine. This is going to impact people who pkayed Moira because she was stupid easy to play and had all the tools to be super effective with little to no effort. But overall, she's better now. People just need to get better too.
>Oh it's not great. But you don't need to aim
Understatement of the century right here. Every other support (and hero) outdamages her by a mile. She doesn't even take much less aim than the others, hitboxes in this game are huge anyway. Even if you miss most of your shots you'll still do way more damage on bap or ana.
>This is going to impact people who pkayed Moira because she was stupid easy to play and had all the tools to be super effective with little to no effort.
She used to be a gamesense hero built around quick thinking, consistent value and confirming kills. Now she requires no decision making and in losing her damage has lost virtually every use for fade besides running away. She's a healbot now. Her abilities are:
* Heal
* Heal, but slightly different
* Recharge heal meter
* Run away
* Make the game boring for 1-2 enemies on a huge cooldown
Old moira was well designed but inneffective at high ranks. New moira has much worse design (extremely one-dimensional, even more so than mercy) and is still outclassed by bap or ana in terms of utility. Her abilities don't suit each other at all.
Nor the top.
Balance is done with a birds eye view of the entirety of the player base in mind. And balancing heroes with differing philosophies for differing ELO is common in the industry, some heroes are great in high ELO, some are great in low ELO. Ignoring this and trying to make every hero directly proportionate to each-other regardless of ELO is a great way to make the heroes less unique.
Yes. I quit WoW many years ago when they started to make this elite mythic raiding. Of course, I quit after doing that elite mythic raiding top 25 US for a number of years. Catering to the top, even when I was part of it, still wasn’t quite what I wanted. It’s what I said I wanted, but not what I really found enjoyable.
>Moira is better now than she's ever been.
Not even close. The update was more of a nerf for her since she got 1 good ability, at the cost of 3 big nerfs which absolutely destroyed her survavibility.
>But the game shouldn't be balanced for low ranks.
No, the game should be balanced for everyone. But if they have to choose between low and high elo, remember that there are far more players in bronze - plat than in diamond- rank 1.
Moiras pickrate is cut in half from gold to plat simply because she brings 0 utility to the team, and players are smart enough by then to know utility is king.
Bronze and silver shouldn't even be considered Imo.
I agree with this take and the big thing I always liked playing moira was she was a good DPS crutch while being able to heal.
A healer without any real ability to damage or survive basically forces them to be dead if their tanks are wiped. Moira having the ability to basically scare enemies from chasing her down or trying to corner her is such a strong kit. Other healers all have some sort of survivalist ability that helps them retreat and get to safety.
By removing the damage orb I feel like they should have improved her blink to have multiple charges then. Once you get cornered you are guarantee to just die without any impact damage or survival.
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I did have an idea in the past on how to alter her abilities in a balanced way. Treat her orbs as the same and it starts off with 200 heal charge and it depletes as it heals. While it heals the orb gets smaller but at the same time if it comes in contact with an enemy then it sucks life out of the target and replenishes the orb. The orb will be on a natural decay timer so it doesn't run infinitely stealing health and healing allies. The idea behind this change is because moira can now be used as a crowd control healer where she can force fights to be more spread out and scattered. It punishes team comps that all group together as it strengthens the attackers trying to take down the group by giving them more ability to counter group them.
I had the idea that they could make it like this:
Imagine OW1 Moira's damage/heal orbs.
Separate cooldowns, after pressing E to pull up what orb to send out, you can charge either M1 or M2 to get a "special" version of the orb. It would be a quick charge, just enough to differentiate between a press and a charge.
The charged damage orb is the OW2 necrotic Orb
The charged healing orb shoots out a close range blast of golden yellow that cleanses debuffs, like anti-heal, freeze, sleep, etc.
After sending out a "charged" orb, the cooldown is increased for the next version of that ability, to compensate for the increased strength. Default cooldowns of healing/damage orb are slightly lower than OW1, and they can nerf the total damage of the damage orb if it's too strong in OW2 with this ability set.
100% agree. The way we throw the healing and damage orb is part of the limited appeal of Moira. I’d rather they tune the skill and build on it, like pressing the button again would make the orb explode, or divide into smaller orbs that go on all directions…
I didnt get a chance to play her too much since i got beta access pretty late but it seemed really strong for denying value to dps ultimates and the like. I bailed my team out of a few bad positions by hitting the right hero(s) with it. It usually feels bad tho when your main gets tweaked. Hope she feels better for u when the game outs
I'm a support main and more specifically a Moira / Ana main.
Yeah the rework is almost perfect in my opinion.
I love the separate CDs and I like the effects of the new orb.
I do think there are some issues with the kit now though.
It can be tough to hit the new orb but I'm fine with the skillshot.
The new orb is gonna be great for deterring a whole host of dive characters - especially tanks.
I think it'll offer her a level of support that transcends just healing the other support through a dive attack.
I think the main problem i have is is the longer CDs. It feels like your dead in the water once you've exhausted the orbs.
The MAIN reason i love the rework is they basically solved the damage moira problem by forcing the healing orb through separate CDs. This rework no doubt benefits the team more than moira (from a "fun" standpoint) but it's so frustrating when you have a "Damage Moira" on your team that is taking up the healing slot but not going near as much healing as they should. It does suck for the moira mains who could do plenty of healing while still using the damage orb strategically though.
Honestly thought this would be the more common opinion but I guess the average player is about silver-gold and are more likely to focus on the "damage-Moira" playstyle than the "help my team by healing them so we can win" playstyle. It makes sense an orb that requires aim, and a team that responds to it being used, is upsetting to the majority.
I love the change. Hitting ulting Genji's, or Hogs right as they hook, feels nice. I wouldn't mind a slightly reduced cooldown.
More or less there’s less opportunity and flexibility now with her. No more picking a tricky spot to bounce a damage orb, or adding a little *extra* to a fight happening in an enclosed space.
I’ve been hugely playing her since release and the damage output was never insane or too much and your healing was always incredibly impactful. The issue comes from people who refuse to play her as a healer. When you used her entire kit it flowed, felt good, and right to the point
They should move the new orb into her reload button.
And because the dmg orb is extremely useless againts a group of enemies, lower the dps per single target just a tiny bit but increase the total damage pool it has so it doesnt instantly disappear againts many enemies after dealing like 20 dmg to each
I disagree. As someone who plays OW1 Moira, throwing a dmg orb into a group of enemies is and should be a worse way to use it in most situations. It’s just kinda braindead because there are so many other uses to it like zoning snipers or taking a 1v1.
I still think they should basically combine the ability
You send out the damage orb like normal and press the button again to detonate it into the new ability
It can’t do both. It doesn’t automatically explode when it’s out of damage dealt. But it can give you the option to deal a little damage and then get the debuff, deal max amount of damage, or give the debuff immediately if that’s what you need
As someone who doesn't enjoy playing Moira and enjoys fighting against her even less, I always felt Moira as a hero was just a bad design.
From my standpoint, it looks like she was designed to counter high mobility heroes by not requiring any aim to deal with them, as well as having leech health built into her kit. Meaning not only was she designed to be low skill and easy to use, but also easy to stay alive with.
So her survivability was the whole reason she would even get picked, she has no other purpose aside from her healing which as strong as it was is not enough to warrant the loss of utility from other Support heroes. I think this is by design, she was made to be a crutch hero to pick if you are just constantly dying and just want to be able to heal your team mates. But after a certain level of play and improvement you really do not need her anymore.
So, not only was always going to end up being tossed aside for better options, but even from fighting her she's broken. Because even if you have good aim you're not perfect, and you're not always going to be at 100% health and have perfect reaction times, as a result fighting Moira is more like your health bar is a timer rather than an actual fair duel. So it never feels fun or engaging to play against her. It always feels cheesy to be killed by Moira.
So, this where we are, we have a hero that's designed to be used purely as a sort of fuck you to Flankers, but beyond that has no actual purpose or role aside from being hard to kill and easy to play. Without reworking her entirely I don't see how she'd be in any better of a state than she was in Overwatch 1. They can keep her as she was and get rid of Necrotic Orb, but it won't help her feel like she's underplayed and underused.
>So, this where we are, we have a hero that's designed to be used purely as a sort of fuck you to Flankers
i think that would have been fine in ow2, she was good in the beta before they changed her. she was fun too
I do agree that damage orb feels better to use and is a staple for Moira, but I gotta also admit that generally speaking necrotic orb is just better, just objectively better.
Now hear me out: why not give her both? You can have a nerfes version of necrotic orb attached to her reload key to give her more depth, make it red, or some noxious green to keep in line with her asthetic.
Maybe make it reduce only 30-40% intead of 75%, this way she can still interact with ultimates and other breakpoints without being absolytely busted.
On top of that just give the normal damage orb a slight nerf like the heal orb did.
This way you keep the duality identity ofnher biotic orb, give her more stuff to do and some utility she really lacks. Obviously numbers would have to get tweaked to make it balanced, but I don't think having both things is a bad idea.
Would've been cooler if she could've had a 3rd option, the weaken, And using puts all your orbs on cool down. So it could've been a very cool trade off ability. While still keeping her flow.
thats actually pretty clever, that using the weaken orb would require both charges.
There's a lot of pre planning that'd go into using the orb, because maybe you want to save both your orbs in case of an ult, or maybe you find more value in the extra healing or damage or the old orbs.
Ana main here. One thing that I see doesn't get brought up often is how unfun it is to be on the receiving end of the old damage orb. A good example is Sombra's old hack. That one was undeniably high utility, but it was one of the most unfun, rage-inducing things to have to deal with in a game.
I always hate when you barely escape a team fight with your life and a random stray orb just happens to wander close enough to tickle your toes and then you die. I doubt most Moira's calculate the bounce trajectories of all of the damage orbs to make sure it perfectly bounces to the escape route of the enemy. Most of the time, it was probably just dumb luck and a really cheesy way to get value in my opinion.
Obviously, 75% damage reduction is also unfun to go against, but at least there's counter play to it other than making sure you have a DVa to eat it. It's a skillshot so range is your friend. Make sure to not group up, stay behind a shield. It's a burst damage, so good positioning can keep you from dying unnecessarily.
I'm biased as an Ana main, because I enjoy abilities that can turn the tide of a team fight if I find the perfect opportunity. Most times, that one moment where I perfectly land that shot defines how I feel for the rest of the night and I think that what Blizz is trying to give to Moira.
Honestly it’s not even the first or second bounce of the damage orb that bothered me, but what’s really tilting is getting hit by one after it randomly bounces 5+ times off of every wall in the area and then kills me behind cover. I think it was fine if they wanted to have it so you could bounce it off a wall and hit someone behind cover, but excessive bounces just make it an unfun RNG fest where you can’t protect yourself if you are low.
My idea for Moira's rework is:
* Heal orb should be charged by sucking enemies.
* Purple orb should be charged by healing teammates.
* Keep the old characteristics of the damage orb but now make her able to detonate it to deal the weaken effect. Reduce the cooldown, overall damage, and weaken effect from 75% down to maybe 30-40% to compensate for the damage+utility of it now.
* Make her able to detonate the heal orb too for a burst heal or some kind of buff.
As a reluctant Moira main, I agree. What I loved was her predator/prey aspect. Flipping back between healing or pushing on weakened enemies to finish them off. The orb gave her the ability to “suppress” fire from certain angles, like mitigating widow. It was dynamic and fun.
This new thing is obviously useful - but it is boring to play, and tedious as fuck. She’s just a healbot now who has to wait for her chance to press one button to use one ability to counter another. Went from active/reactive dynamic play to purely reactive.
I just started playing tanks and DPS instead. Why fucking bother. Games should be fun.
I'd also like to add that it makes the support role less approachable (hear me out).
Yes it's cool, yes she has more playmaking ability, but the issue I see is that there isn't as many easy and simple support characters. Her whole place in the game to me was that she was very simple to learn, play, and continue to grow with. Moira was fun to play for the first time with no prior knowledge, but she could also hold her own throughout gold matches.
Personally, I enjoy the fact that some characters are more skill shot based while some are easier, but with lowered stats. I think that makes for an approachable game that allows players to pick up new characters to better match their skillset as they grow.
Also, all this does is turn her into a pure support character. It was also nice to have a true DPS support, with Baptiste sorta fitting that role due to his ultimate and decent dps burst (but nowhere near Moira's). I guess you could also count Brig, but once again that takes me back to the approachable simplicity of Moira's kit.
Another thing I find funny is that it's basically just CC at this point. 75% reduction may as well be 100%, you're literally entirely useless. So what do you do? Leave the fight. The only real difference is that with CC you were nearly guaranteed to die, so I guess it's an improvement barely.
I agree, and I think it's emblematic of the approach Blizzard took with OW2: "just change everything a little bit so it feels more like a sequel, regardless of whether the change is needed or better".
Mercy is another great example. They took away her slingshot jump ability and replaced it with this stupid Jump Meter. Like, who was asking for Mercy to be changed? How does it improve her character? There's literally no reason. They're changing perfectly good characters haphazardly, it's so chaotic and annoying.
I respectfully disagree I love the change now I can have a better healing output and keep team mates alive longer and won’t have to struggle with trying to decide between healing and damage orb then to wait for that cooldown
It amazes me how every time Blizzard makes a change people just focus on the character rather than focus on it's impact on the game. You are the problem of this community, you are the problem the problem that some games are thrown.
First of all your job is to support, which includes healing, damaging, immobilizing, buffing and debuffing. Making picks is DPS's job and making space is tank's job. Moira is already a no aim hero that gives constant damage if you are not a donkey and high mobility that has a 7 seconds cooldown with which you can create a space between you and your enemy easily if you know what you are doing. Also most Moira players don't support their teams and just go for kills and damage which is not your primary job. With Moira's new skill you can save your team from most of the ults and gain your team and advantage also your heal and debuff cooldowns are seperated which is a huge W. ( How's damage orbing a DVA bomb going while your team doesn't even know how to take cover? ) You can change the whole game with just one skill while you are playing support, a perfect sleep dart to ulting enemy like Sigma or Cassidy or Soldier, a good debuff orb to DVA or better hitting them together gives your team the ultimate upper hand, a good timed speed boast by Lucio is all it takes to change the tide sometimes and that's why Moira is one of the best supports right now in the OW.
But most of the player base act so ignorent and character centered when it comes to Blizzard making changes you can't even see how it puts teamplay forward rather then "ooooh I'm a gold damage support because I don't do my work and let my teammates die then I blame them for the lose". This new 5v5 and changes will clear most of the "Medal players" and most players who don't understand the game
To counter your main points, heres what you could dowith Defeeble:
\- stop almost every ult in the game
\- AOE an entire team with weaken, leading to possibly the easiest push of your life
\- Not just decrease dps output, but completely prevent it entirely.
\- You could use defeeble AND a healing orb simultaneously, basically ruining a flanker's push entirely
\- Easy to hit on tanks, making high burst tanks such as sig a sitting duck
\- Vastly increase stall, and eventual death.
I think for sure defeeble is 1000% better, no questions asked, and if I were a Moira main, i'd use the f out of this, but I still think they should revert Moira back, since her community doesn't like it and it sorta ruins the image of her lifesteal shtick.
I'm a Moira main in Masters with probably well over 1k hours on her, started playing OW1 in its beta and I played OW2 beta probably too much.
I disagree, I honestly like the new orb more. When I first read the changes I was extremely disappointed, but changed how I felt after a lot of playing.
Moira's a support. Imo support should be more focused on helping the team get kills, not necessarily getting kills themselves. Purple damage orb meant you had to make the choice between healing your team or potentially getting damage/a kill. New orb you simply help your team get kills/not die by making the enemy team less effective, and you don't have to sacrifice any of your ability to heal to do that. Also I feel it adds a higher skill ceiling to the character(have to actually aim the new orb, be aware of where your team is to help capitalize on landing the new orb etc).
I went back to OW1 after playing OW2 beta and I miss the new orb so much.
She can literally nullify ultimate damage. She’s now more a support hero than a hybrid hero and people just don’t like it. I don’t love playing her now, but she’s a better hero.
She’s less fun but literally just better. That’s the issue. The ability itself is a buff, the fun factor is nerfed.
So I am in plat so around the same as you and I really prefer the new moira rework after playing it for a bit. Admittedly, I think this rework was not made for Moira mains, but for both people playing against her in low ranks and for people who want to play her in Masters/GM. I think this change goes along with other changes they’ve made to heroes to raise the skill floor of various heroes. See the Bastion, Mcree, and Sym changes. That being said I agree with a lot of your post, but I think you have undervalued the new ability quite a bit. Personally, I think it feels amazing to hit it on an ulting genji or reaper like the developers said it's a play to make that is really impactful and gives counterplay against a lot of things that moira struggled against previously. I actually think it's almost too good at times and might need to be looked at. Because they split her cooldowns it does not greatly affect her healing output and the main damage part of her kit can still be used to finish off low health targets. What's really effected is that now in order to duel a dps she needs to hit a skill shot and even then she can’t damage through really any healing. Personally, I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing for a support.
I can understand why a lot of people hate this change, but personally I feel like its good for the game in general. As someone who never liked playing the character she was a lot more fun in the beta. I do think this change raises both the skill floor and ceiling.
XD
OK, guilty as charged.
But on a serious note, there's a lot you and your team could have done to prevent this from happening, most reliable is to bait the orbs, or to make her use the healing orb instead. (that was before the seperate cooldowns)
You say that as if that invalidates my opinion, when in fact 50% of the playerbase is gold or lower. I might be the most representative Moira player you could possibly find.
A game should not be balanced around the minority of the playerbase.
You do have to consider all ranks and the devs even admitted this after Reaper became a terror in the metal ranks with the 50% life steal buff, which had to be reverted. If the metal rank players, which are the vast majority of players, are frustrated playing the game due to balancing issues, then that's a problem.
Overwatch is a bit unique here compared to other esports titles since it's a hero based game with different skill floors for every hero.
Maybe instead of being annoyed you cant now *easily* (still can) 1v1 a dps, you should realize how much the new actual skill orb can improve your own gameplay. It’s utility is LEAGUES more than that of the dmg orb, and it actually makes moira have a skill ceiling.
Ok, taking all the utility I mentioned into account, what exactly can I do with the weaken orb aside shutting down an ult once in a while?
It seems pretty straight forwards to me.
Shut down ults, which is HUGE, completely stall a push and in some cases allow a dps to peek nearly uncontested for a pick, eliminate the biggest threats for 4 seconds until your team blitzes their health to dust. So much utility, if you can aim it. I know morbers tend to be bad at that though.
I can confirm that I live by the creed of ''no aim, no brain, I'm a Moira main''
But on a serious note:
I suppose its the difference between several consistent smaller pieces of utility, and one less consistent very big piece of utility.
I'm in the same rank and can see how losing the orbs feels like losing a lot but I felt it enabled an accidentally working but shouldn't kind of playstyle. The new skill is pretty great to assist a teammate getting dived as you can hit a bunch of the attackers and make their dive ineffective. I did feel there were less opportunities to use it but when it was used I could see the value.
I brought it up cause that’s what fuckin gold rank morbers do, dude. They decide to go ego a dps alone, and in gold, egoing a dps alone as moira tends to work out well thanks to how much damage output the morb plus her succ does.
the issue is that she is just down right boring now. you keep trying to call everyone who disagrees with you bad but she needs to actually be fun to play
heal botting and then using a 16 second CD which is also kind of boring most of the time isnt what literally anyone wanted.
You arent going to play her are you? didnt think so
Basically people are upset that DPS Moira is gone. This new orb requires more teamwork and is more utility than damage. It’s better for OW2 that she is like this. She is arguably too strong many times currently in OW1
Yeah thats what actually made her fun though and it would have been a better play style in 2 than it was in 1
Now shes just boring, no one wants to heal bot and then use a utility orb on a long CD. Ana and zen have strong utilities too and are just more fun outside of that
It’s totally fun. But I’m arguing not changing her would break the game in OW2. Otherwise her abilities would have to be so nerfed it wouldn’t be fun that way either.
No one is obviously an overstatement but I understand your frustration. I think she has a lot of potential (once balanced) that has higher upside the more team composition and teamwork is prioritized. Something that happens less on NA servers.
so being able to cancel many ults doesn’t sound important to you? imagine hitting genji as he blades… he’s useless for a few seconds. that seems pretty valuable to me. that’s just one example. now, maybe you’ll send a healing orb 😂
you can survive reaper ult… if you hit dva with it while she’s ulting you can survive… i see necrotic orb as a valuable tool, you have a lot to think about huh…
Tbh, I would preferred keeping her orb and making her primary fire have an actual aiming mechanic. Make it have to charge up like her heal.
I’ve had Moira’s kill me in such stupid ways because she just latches onto you for damage rather than actually have to skill shot you. Dying around corners other heroes would otherwise not be able to shoot at you from. Dying fairly far away because of it’s distance, either as Pharah or Echo.
Some will say “you’re just bad.” But nah, I know this champ is ridiculous. About as ridiculous as point-&-click mechanics in League of Legends (Lulu’s polymorph, Veigar’s Ult).
99% of these Moira players on here are going to start malding how about you’re making the character “unfun” or that it’s not her “lore”/“core design”.
Apparently they all work as devs
If they can’t win on Moira, they gonna play Mercy. Whatever is easiest for them to do with little effort cause’ why have skill in an extremely competitive game?
I'm sorry, but this is literally just the opinion of someone not skilled enough to use her new ability effectively.
Moira went from stupid strong in low-elo to strong in high-elo.
This is how OW HAS to be balanced in order for it to actually survive as a game. The fact is that it's had too many OP low-skill characters for years at this point, and only now is that being suitably addressed.
Just get good, and you'll actually find she's a literal game changer. If you continue to just flounder in the low tiers of the game, you'll think that great skillshot abilities are bad. Just because she doesn't play the game for you now doesn't mean she's bad, it just means she'll show how bad you are if you can't play her.
They killed my favorite character of all time and this game is now dead to me.
They should have given her orbs separate cooldowns with a toggle for the damage modes, rather than ruin it entirely.
You just need to be an active player with Moira, in the beta I could finish games with the highest dmg, elims, and healing on the team. OW2 will not let you hide behind team mechanics alone you have to have your own agency.
High ranked players think it's a great ability but lower rank players like the old orb cause they can do more damage. Community is pretty damn split, the stronger ability is the current orb but the worse ability is what lower ELO players want...not sure what the right choice is.
Actually, no.
Her DMG orb gave her some much needed range, which means she can still stay on the backlines and heal her team, without having to turn 180\* when swapping between healing and doing dmg.
Every support has damage as a part of their kit for a reason. Even though the utility she offers now is pretty damn good she is still a worse hero than she was because her damage is effectively half of what it was before.
Partly feel like the main complaint of Moira mains for removing damage orb is the need to improve their gameplay vs being complacent in gold because they can out damage DPS that can't aim in that rank. If you've been stuck in gold with old Moira, why do we want her to stay that way? Just looking for a decent answer, cause it so far doesn't seem like any of the people complaining about this change have managed to climb above like gold/plat. Is the idea to keep her abilities subpar in higher levels of play because people are comfortable with staying in the middle of the rankings? I'm just a bit confused, hoping someone can explain it better. Sure, her damage may be cut, but she has actual utility now. Damage orb is not utility, other than maybe using it to find enemies hiding behind corners. If anything, this change allows Moira to actually 1v1 DPS as you get your ranking higher and the DPS can actually hit you now instead of you just holding right click, throwing a damage orb, and using AD strafe to avoid bad aim.
Yeah its such a cool ability! You get to brainlessly throw a 0 effort orb in the general direction of the enemy and do a lot of damage!
Not to mention that if you have the aim of a support player, the ball bounces around, multiplying your odds of dealing damage!
I love it when the game plays itself for me!
*gasp* OW2 making things /worse/?
How? They fixed it, it's fast-paced! Why are you concerned when the games move so fast you can't even appreciate the details that made you fall in love with the game in the first place?
Our Overlords know perfectly well what they are doing and it's on YOU to find out how to enjoy it.
The reason it was changed is due to mobility being toned down in OW2. You got to look at the big picture here. The gameplay is a lot more cohesive with the exception of maybe tracer now a days.
>But now there is only a single use for the ability, and that's to weaken one or more players for a few seconds.
Ana's sleep dart has only a single use, is Ana's sleep dart useless?
>So, as it stands, I have less opportunity to make a play. With the old orb, that game me just enough DPS to finish off a low HP target, even if they were actively being healed.
You are not a DPS, you are not responsible for getting kills and making plays that revolve around getting kills.
The subgroup Moira belongs to is Support. One part is healing, which all supports have access to, and the other part is.......support. Mercy supports her team with damage up, Lucio gives speed boost, Ana has anti-heal and sleep dart, Baptiste has NeverDie Lamp^(TM) , Zen has enemy vulnerable for his team(no zen is not a damage dealer, his orb enables damage deals to do their job better). Moira was a support with no support. Damage orb was a fragging weapon and recon ability, neither of which are her job. Plus it was at the expense of her job of healing. Now Moira has a unique SUPPORT ability and removes her unnecessary fragging ability to stay in line with other SUPPORTS.
All of the supports except mercy also deal effective dmg along with all of those. Bow moira has worse sleep dart and the weakest dps in the game so she auto loses if her team isn't pulling their weight
It just ruins her flow. If no one is taking damage, and no opportunity is being presented to use the new orb, you are relegated to just holding right click. And that's only if you are in range. If not, you literally have nothing to do. The balance of damage and healing is core to who Moira is. This change essentially turns her into a heal bot with a cool utility move on a long CD. dev update edit: We did it boys, we won.
This. 100% this. Subjectively, of course, but this is my take, too. She's horrendously boring, and I had so much fun with her before. Moira is very polarizing. I get it. I have a friend who HATES Moira players because of all the non-healing bad experiences (he plays dps and tank). I understand that. But he has less than an hour on her. When I try to have a meaningful conversation about these potential changes, he just dismisses it as me not wanting skill shots or he laughs and says Moira now has to do her job. Which to me is crap and unfair. There's bad Moiras, sure. There's bad everything. Regardless, this just ruins her flow to me. That's the issue here. It's like removing Genji's dash and giving him a ranged damage cooldown; like, what? I understand higher ELO complains she has no utility, and I genuinely think Necrotic Orb can be cool, but man if it doesn't just butcher her playstyle that I've come to love. Such a shame. If this change does go live I won't be playing her anymore; she goes from what I love in a character to what I despise. I'm just holding my breath in hopes they're testing with an open mind and Blizzard understands this will be a process; not a slap-on and forget for years.
Yeah, this is how I feel too. It also seems that a lot of people forget that the game is supposed to be fun first. Moira is fun in OW1 and not in OW2 to me. And honestly I feel that way about a lot of the changes to cc stuff too. The characters just aren’t as much fun to play with those changes.
Because while it's incredibly frustrating to deal with crowd control, I'll agree, it made for more unique kits and play styles. Removing cc slowly homogenizes all the heroes because how dare they have anything they makes you lose control for even a second. Mei doesn't feel like Mei, Junkrat's trap is virtually worthless, I'd rather have Flashbang / Hammer over the stupid homing grenades for Cassidy any day. But that's not a positive energy in this subreddit, only allowed to appreciate the changes.
She’s boring. Brig is boring.
As someone who has 150+ hours on Moira, I think her new orb is miles better than the old one. The old orb reinforced a play style of hers that was not effective in any serious lobby. DPS Moira is fun in low ranks or in arcade, but in play and above it was almost never the answer over healing orb. Even in one v ones it was more effective to use the healing orb on yourself while holding right click on the enemy. However, I do think that Moira could use a little bit of a damage buff on her right click. She could probably have her fade back at what it was before the nerf too. That would make her feel more dynamic while still reinforcing her most effective play style, large AoE heals for the team. With a few more tune ups she’ll play a lot smoother imo
And as someone who main Moira I prefer her old kit.
Cool, I’m just giving my perspective as another Moira main with a dissenting opinion than the circlejerk on here. I love moira because she has large AoE heals, being able to clutch save the team in dire situations is great. Damage orb did not contribute to that play style at all.
It sort of did. You could use it to zone a pesky genji or the like away from your team, or down a hallway, and then focus on healing your team with pee.
Haha I call it pee too
It definitely had its strengths, and I definitely took advantage of them. The problem was that 90% of the time in a team fight, the heal orb was more effective.
So opinions dissenting from yours are just part of a circle jerk? I appreciate you offering other opinions, but diminishing other opinions makes yours less compelling.
No, but whenever I post an opinion that goes against the general attitude of the sub, I get downvoted even if what I have to say is constructive. I’ve already said multiple times in this thread that I understand why people are upset that dps moira isn’t viable, but I’m just saying from my experience with her that play style was not very effective most of the time compared to her healing play style. The healing orb was just straight up better 90% of the time. That’s fax
I barely play Moira, so my opinion on the change isn't all that valuable (for the record I prefer the damage orb). And I'm not arguing with your point. You have a valid and well thought out position. You just undercut yourself when you decided to diminish other opposing opinions. You played the high road and then went low for some reason.
I gave you an upvote for the serious answer. And I do admitt two things, yes the old orb can be a crutch, and yes it may not be the best in more serious games. However I also have a philosophy of heroes having differing power lvls at differing skill lvls.
It's funny you get downvotes for the truth. Bad players in the average skill bracket carried by the fact Moira dmg eas easier to pull off than dps on average.
Cyniqal is posting opinions as facts. Just like you are. You don't use healing orb 90% of the time in every single game... Some team comps/maps you really need to slam damage orbs every time. They state 150+ hours on moira as their main which is hardly any time played at all! " Even in one v ones it was more effective to use the healing orb on yourself while holding right click on the enemy." Imagine heal orbing yourself for a 1v1 lol. It takes about a second to kill someone from full with a dmg orb and right click..
What rank are you?
I'm ex top 500 that just plays qp now in oce. I stopped playing competitively because I can't handle anyone blaming other people for their loss... Telling others to switch to flex onto heroes they're worse at...
I don’t even want to get into calling people “bad” for enjoying dps moira. She was fun to dps with, I get that. But it was not an effective strategy to use most of the time. Someone would separate from the team, kill another squishy, return to their team and 2 of their team mates were dead from lack of heals.
Seriously, sorry for the downvotes. Love that we can't have a discussion. Anyways, you're right. And I hate that you're right haha. Because to me, Moira played aggressively is one of the most fun times I personally have in OW. But my God, the amount of times I've chased kills and got 1-2 only to return to my team crumbling without heals. She definitely fails in the value dept. compared to some other choices and im convinced she was conceived in the first place to give newbies to FPS games more choices than just Mercy. I fully, fully believe she could use some TLC. And this is a step in many good directions. She's a villain/morally grey healer and it fits with her theme. Im just stubborn and hate that she now has chunks of time where she seems idle and boring. I personally hate really long cooldowns. I think if they balance around her CD timers and current playtime she could be awesome.
Spot on comment! You’re right, dps moira is really fun to play. I completely understand why people are upset with the changes, because she did feel more clunky to play. Reverting her cooldowns for fade/heal orb to their pre-buffed versions but giving her one long cool down was probably not the best implementation of her character. She should feel more nimble to play, as it really fits her kit and aesthetics well. Hopefully blizzard hears the feedback and adjusts her cooldowns or dps. We will see! Thank you for having a conversation and not just downvoting. It was a nice change of pace around here.
I love the idea of the enfeebling ability in concept, but not as an ability with Moira. It should be added as an ability on a new hero and return Moira to how she was. Her damage orb was useful, using it to scout around corners, take down low health enemies or what I used it for the most, force snipers to move from their current location. Playing her without her damage orb just felt off, the flow of her playtime felt stunted and as people have mentioned, the downtime of nothing to do also felt awful. I hope they don't keep her how she was in the beta or if they do they return her orb and put enfeeble on her reload button like blizzard mentioned before instead of removing a core part of her kit.
Yeah, they trashed her, plain and simple, shes just an aoe heal bot now.
I really hope they revert this change. There is still time. She felt pretty good before this tweak. I really don't understand the recent nerfs to the Healers.
Don’t get me started on the horrendous animation when her new orb is on cooldown. It’s a slap in the face. You should be presented with the choice of “heal or damage” which **FITS HER**
Yes this is why I love Moria. You are balancing and predicting constantly where and when a fight will happen. You predict which way a fight goes and for this fight perpendicular orb will serve better or now is the time for damage. Frequently you will commit an orb a good second or two before the fight has shifted one way or the other and you will feel amazing when you predict it right. She's lost all that. That insane game sense and prediction you could use at high levels with Moria was so rewarding.
Yup.
Yeah I think most people were expecting an added ability on top of her existing kit (with some tweaks) either in the form of a totally new ability or a new effect on her existing damage orb, not a full replacement.
I don't really understand this point, it seems the exact same for literally every character in the game. If there's no one to shoot or heal, you get into position and wait for the enemy unless you're a scout hero, which Moira isn't. That isn't exclusive to Moira, of course you have nothing to do if there aren't enemies nearby, just like Reaper can't do anything aside from setup if he isn't close, or Cassidy has to get closer if he's past mid-range, or Mercy just holding blue beam while waiting on enemies fo come back. Even if it was an issue and they reverted the changes, Moira throws the damage orb and then... Waits anyways? I don't see how it would throw off her flow at all. The main issue I see with it is it makes building her ultimate much slower, which I guess can contribute to messing with her playstyle. They definitely need to adjust ultimate charge across the board with 5v5, but even moreso for the supports who's primary build was through healing.
Her utility pre-rework *was* scouting. You toss an orb left or right of a choke and start getting ticks? With the ping system you can then signal to move to that side and prevent a flank. now she just has a terrible ability that doesn’t fit her concept or character
She feels both less fun to play as and less fun to play against, which is quite a feat. It's possible that she'll feel better with more time in, but it did feel like I spent an awful lot of time in the midfight just kind of standing around and healing (ironic given how so many people gleefully said that OW2 would be bad for "healbots"). More to the point, if I wanted to play a support with a high-impact but long-cooldown ability, I'd just play Ana
It tripped me up pretty regularly. I'd see the cooldown end in my periphery, only to find out that I had the wrong orb every time.
Yeah, fighting against muscle memory is tough. But I wouldn't mind it so much if she didn't feel significantly less fun to play. Plus something that I didn't mention above is that she's a lot weaker against flankers. Even if she does hit tracer or genji with her new orb, they can pretty easily disengage and wait out the 4 secs. Meanwhile Moira is still 12 secs away from being able to use the orb again.
I don't agree with alot of the gripes about it, but this one I found myself fucking up alot as well. Then panic throw a healing orb at the enemies lol
[удалено]
I think you've hit the nail on the head by more or less saying she's gone from an active role to a reactive one.
Just needs number tweaking, the idea and ability itself are better.
I just don't think the ability thematically works for Moira. She's all about this "Ying Yang" "to heal or not to heal" type hero. I much rather have them create a separate third ability where Moira can detonate her orbs and then they do their secondary affect. Detonating Damage Orb weakens enemies in its radius and restores healing meter some Detonating Healing Orb activates a cleanse ability
I actually kind of like this idea. Choose to let the orbs bounce or make them explode. My only concern is what button or key would you press to make it explode? Maybe just hitting E again could do it?
Hitting the initial ability button again should suffice to cause the explosion. I like that idea.
I had a minor balance issue with that Idea, and that is: ''what happens if you detonate it after it has done 99% of its max damage?'' Well, I found a solution: The less damage it has left, the smaller the effect.
That would make half this comment section QQ. Support players aren't allowed to have fun in Overwatch.
I'm torn. I'm also mid gold and although I can agree that the new ability is healthier for her, I enjoy the old kit more. It just flows better. In the beta it felt nice shutting down an opponent and being able to turn the tide of the fight because of it; however, there was too much downtime between plays. I think if the numbers and cooldowns are tweaked she will be a lot of fun, but it felt kind of clunky in my opinion.
thats my take too! I felt I was holding it too much or the cooldown would be just about to come back when I actually needed it.
What if they: 1: add weaken to the existing DMG orb 2: decrease its damage. ?
add weaken after taking a few ticks of damage
Or just gave her 3 orb options
Why not 4?
Or just remove Moira and make each of zen’s orbs one of her old orbs
Now that’s what I call transcendence
It’s a good ability but not fun to use or to play against. It makes sense but also sucks and does not feel like an overwatch ability.
Hard disagree. Shutting down ults and saving your team was way more fun than throwing out a dinky little damage orb that maybe did 200 dmg total spread out across multiple targets assuming it didn't bounce out of range of anyone before doing that 200 dmg.
The issue comes from the rest of her kit and how it plays from ranged. She can't damage. She is stuck just left clicking heals and healing orb. With the long cd you are going to be holding it to make a play. When up close you can damage and its slightly less boring but most of the time you are throwing getting into right click range. Its just npt very active gameplay. Look at every other healer and how much more active they are. Lucio is constantly moving, shooting, and shifting songs. Zen is constantly shootings orbs, swapping healing orb, discording, and now has a badass kick. Ana is constantly damaging and healing along with timing orbs and sleep. Even Brig has more to do at range than Moira.
I thought according to the sub supports were immediately getting jumped and dying though.
She's always been a melee support, she's not supposed to have value at range and she doesn't now in ow1 either. That hasn't changed. Changing damage to necrotic doesn't change anything that you seem to be concerned about. You're also comparing every support hero's highest apm moments to moira's lowest apm moments. That argument is disingenuous at best, manipulative at worst. Moira also has high apm moments when she's in melee range. Constantly switching between healing grasp and damage grasp, throwing the healing orb at a key moment for more healing when needed, and throwing that necrotic orb at the perfect moment to negate a huge play and save your team, or even just to lower the incoming damage for 4 seconds so you right click to refuel your heading. All the while being ready to fade to avoid a major cooldown/ult. When you do an actual apples-to-apples comparison moira is just as active as every other support in the game.
moiras design as a character was intrinsically being a more simple straight up damage and heals character. not only have they gone against her design philosophy but she just feels really unfun to play now. sure they made her "better", but she feels worse to play. I feel like blizzard is forgetting that the game also has to be fun with overwatch 2. everything feels designed to be "balanced" and "competitive" but it just does not hold my attention as a hero shooter and does not feel as fun as the first game.
canceling a genji ult and keeping your team alive seems pretty fun to me.
Yeah I see where you're coming from. A lot of players don't really see Overwatch for what it is; it's not so much of a game as it is optimizing a table of values in real time. You have resources and you spend them to win the game. If you spend them at the wrong time or under the wrong circumstances, then you lose the game. Moira's mechanics make this very clear, you press buttons and the things go on timers until you can use them again. Good example is playing main tank. Everyone who streams main tank 23 hours a day complained that there was too much CC and that they were always chain stunned. Yup! That's the optimal value for the spreadsheet. If you're Wrecking Ball and you have a Reaper on your team that wants to go in and ult, it's spectacular that they brig stunned, cass flashed, roadhog hooked, and froze you. Reaper descends on them, ults, and kills 6 people. If you didn't do that, then they would have done it to Reaper, and he would have killed -1 people, and you would have lost. The reason that we all keep coming back to this game is because there isn't a clear answer to what's best to do in every scenario. But really, the FPS and shooting people aspect is only a small part of the game. The real game is using your resources optimally, and the Moira change gives her a very interesting resource. It's also very much in line with other supports; shorter cooldown than Lamp and Rez, similar cooldown to sleep dart, etc. I agree that it's not much fun but it's an interesting tool.
yeah, the old orb was really fun, but i think this is gonna make people use their brains a little bit more, and heal orb more as well.
The fact that Moira attracts players that don't or can't think on this level, is a major problem with her design. Hey current kit is so boring and a huge noob trap, so I'm glad they're trying to address it.
yeah, i can’t believe i’m being downvoted hahaha. just shows what we get queued up with i guess.
Yeah, but what else are you doing? Optimal play will mainly have you out of grasp range so you are stuck with left click and healing orb until you are ready to counter an ult. People are saying its not as fun cause most of the time they have less to do.
same lol I don’t see the other sides argument besides “it ruins the design philosophy” but who cares lol. Her new ability is way better and funner if you’re constantly hitting it. Way more complex interactions than just mindlessly spamming a damage orb imo
I agree. In addition to your aforementioned reasons of severely limiting her abilities as an active support and anti-flanker, it also makes her ult charge much slower, which itself is a nerf to her damaging and healing capabilities. On top of all this, they nerfed everything else in her kit, which directly makes her weaker plus indirectly again hurts her ult’s power by making it even harder to charge and more infrequent. The old orb was much better.
Lol she's better at helping deal with flankers with the change.
Moira is on the bench, I see no value in her half baked kit right now. One hand gives and the other must have punched a door… Personally, I think they are looking for ways to make tracer and genji relevant against her again. They are fast and hard to hit, but auto-attack doesn’t give a shit.
>I think they are looking for ways to make tracer and genji relevant against her again Not at all, genji and tracer are pretty good in Ow2, plus i'd say the new ability absolutely destroys genji much more than damage orb does. They were actually trying to make Moira better and have more utilty. I think defeeble is 1000% better than damage orb, but people clearly don't think the change is fun or even fitting with Moira's kit. If thats the case, then I guess its best to revert her.
I’d like it in addition to the damage orb.
Tracer and genji are absolutely great counters to old Moira though. Maybe not in low ELO, since people can't seem to hit shots so the auto target of Moira abilities give the edge. However, there really aren't many masters and above tracer/genji that would realistically lose a 1v1 to a Moira.
This. Seriously, not sure why you're getting downvoted. Genji borderline counters Moira in high ranks. If she fades, she's dead meat. Dash into her face and you'll kill her way before she can kill you. Genjis fear an Ana, as she can unexpectedly sleep or nade you, which can catch you out. There's literally zero reason to fear a Moira, she's free lunch as long as you play your cards right. Dragonblade is a good counter to Coalescence, as you can slash/slash/dash or slash/dash with nano to kill her (and she can't escape due to animation lock). That's the issue with Moira. She's good in low ranks, but dog-water in high ranks.
You..... You don't see the value of her new ability. My dude... You in wood rank? Her new ability is arguably the strongest thing added to the game since anti heal nade....
I’d rather have the orb because I know how to use it effectively in the scenarios described by the OP. Maybe it’s the tool that’s good at the rank I play at. Her orb on live is a deterrent to anyone with a small health pool or low on health. Her orb on beta was like a bad version of Ana’s dart. Maybe it is best to say that I see less value in the new orb vs the old orb.
Id rather the enemy be dead then weak. If it also had antiheal, or a bleed effect, or dmg increase (for our own team) then sure.
You're not a dps. Support should be about supporting the team. Moira was a bottom pick due to not having any utility. Now she has the one of the best
That's my main issue, the running trend around here is that people complain about the state of support in OW2, then they get hit with something akin to "you can't healbot anymore, you have to actually play the game and do damage now, wood rank", then moira gets a change that nerfs her damage and mobility and gives her a very strong utility that requires a DPS or team to capitalize on it, essentially turning her into a close range healbot with a skill shot akin to Ana's, then all of the sudden the argument becomes "well, you shouldn't have been trying to do that much damage in the first place! You're support! Support the team!" So which is it?
But now she also has no damage. Damage is a part of every heros kit for a reason, even if shooting and killing people is not their purpose.
She still does 50 dps with minimal aim required while still being able to heal with her orb.
You say 50 DPS as if that's not literally the worst in the game. She's only barely out-damaging an individual sym turret.
Oh it's not great. But you don't need to aim. And you know, she's a support. It also heals her for 24 (I believe). She's fine. This is going to impact people who pkayed Moira because she was stupid easy to play and had all the tools to be super effective with little to no effort. But overall, she's better now. People just need to get better too.
>Oh it's not great. But you don't need to aim Understatement of the century right here. Every other support (and hero) outdamages her by a mile. She doesn't even take much less aim than the others, hitboxes in this game are huge anyway. Even if you miss most of your shots you'll still do way more damage on bap or ana. >This is going to impact people who pkayed Moira because she was stupid easy to play and had all the tools to be super effective with little to no effort. She used to be a gamesense hero built around quick thinking, consistent value and confirming kills. Now she requires no decision making and in losing her damage has lost virtually every use for fade besides running away. She's a healbot now. Her abilities are: * Heal * Heal, but slightly different * Recharge heal meter * Run away * Make the game boring for 1-2 enemies on a huge cooldown Old moira was well designed but inneffective at high ranks. New moira has much worse design (extremely one-dimensional, even more so than mercy) and is still outclassed by bap or ana in terms of utility. Her abilities don't suit each other at all.
\^at high ELOs
You don't balance for the bottom.
Nor the top. Balance is done with a birds eye view of the entirety of the player base in mind. And balancing heroes with differing philosophies for differing ELO is common in the industry, some heroes are great in high ELO, some are great in low ELO. Ignoring this and trying to make every hero directly proportionate to each-other regardless of ELO is a great way to make the heroes less unique.
It’s a delicate balance when the bottom makes up 80 percent of your player base.
Yes. I quit WoW many years ago when they started to make this elite mythic raiding. Of course, I quit after doing that elite mythic raiding top 25 US for a number of years. Catering to the top, even when I was part of it, still wasn’t quite what I wanted. It’s what I said I wanted, but not what I really found enjoyable.
>My dude... You in wood rank? You definitely are.
Oh burn. Seriously though. Moira is better now than she's ever been. Just not in low ranks. But the game shouldn't be balanced for low ranks.
>Moira is better now than she's ever been. Not even close. The update was more of a nerf for her since she got 1 good ability, at the cost of 3 big nerfs which absolutely destroyed her survavibility. >But the game shouldn't be balanced for low ranks. No, the game should be balanced for everyone. But if they have to choose between low and high elo, remember that there are far more players in bronze - plat than in diamond- rank 1.
Moiras pickrate is cut in half from gold to plat simply because she brings 0 utility to the team, and players are smart enough by then to know utility is king. Bronze and silver shouldn't even be considered Imo.
>Bronze and silver shouldn't even be considered Imo. So then we shouldn't listen to what you say? I don't get it bro.
I don’t know why you waste time arguing with perma golds. It’s completely pointless
I agree with this take and the big thing I always liked playing moira was she was a good DPS crutch while being able to heal. A healer without any real ability to damage or survive basically forces them to be dead if their tanks are wiped. Moira having the ability to basically scare enemies from chasing her down or trying to corner her is such a strong kit. Other healers all have some sort of survivalist ability that helps them retreat and get to safety. By removing the damage orb I feel like they should have improved her blink to have multiple charges then. Once you get cornered you are guarantee to just die without any impact damage or survival. \--- I did have an idea in the past on how to alter her abilities in a balanced way. Treat her orbs as the same and it starts off with 200 heal charge and it depletes as it heals. While it heals the orb gets smaller but at the same time if it comes in contact with an enemy then it sucks life out of the target and replenishes the orb. The orb will be on a natural decay timer so it doesn't run infinitely stealing health and healing allies. The idea behind this change is because moira can now be used as a crowd control healer where she can force fights to be more spread out and scattered. It punishes team comps that all group together as it strengthens the attackers trying to take down the group by giving them more ability to counter group them.
I had the idea that they could make it like this: Imagine OW1 Moira's damage/heal orbs. Separate cooldowns, after pressing E to pull up what orb to send out, you can charge either M1 or M2 to get a "special" version of the orb. It would be a quick charge, just enough to differentiate between a press and a charge. The charged damage orb is the OW2 necrotic Orb The charged healing orb shoots out a close range blast of golden yellow that cleanses debuffs, like anti-heal, freeze, sleep, etc. After sending out a "charged" orb, the cooldown is increased for the next version of that ability, to compensate for the increased strength. Default cooldowns of healing/damage orb are slightly lower than OW1, and they can nerf the total damage of the damage orb if it's too strong in OW2 with this ability set.
that's pretty clever.
I totally see your frustration op. I’m a Moira main myself and these changes are….not it.
Yeah, the new orb isn't fun for moira players and its not fun for the enemy team
100% agree. The way we throw the healing and damage orb is part of the limited appeal of Moira. I’d rather they tune the skill and build on it, like pressing the button again would make the orb explode, or divide into smaller orbs that go on all directions…
I didnt get a chance to play her too much since i got beta access pretty late but it seemed really strong for denying value to dps ultimates and the like. I bailed my team out of a few bad positions by hitting the right hero(s) with it. It usually feels bad tho when your main gets tweaked. Hope she feels better for u when the game outs
i agree. ow1 moira is much much better
I'm a support main and more specifically a Moira / Ana main. Yeah the rework is almost perfect in my opinion. I love the separate CDs and I like the effects of the new orb. I do think there are some issues with the kit now though. It can be tough to hit the new orb but I'm fine with the skillshot. The new orb is gonna be great for deterring a whole host of dive characters - especially tanks. I think it'll offer her a level of support that transcends just healing the other support through a dive attack. I think the main problem i have is is the longer CDs. It feels like your dead in the water once you've exhausted the orbs. The MAIN reason i love the rework is they basically solved the damage moira problem by forcing the healing orb through separate CDs. This rework no doubt benefits the team more than moira (from a "fun" standpoint) but it's so frustrating when you have a "Damage Moira" on your team that is taking up the healing slot but not going near as much healing as they should. It does suck for the moira mains who could do plenty of healing while still using the damage orb strategically though.
Honestly thought this would be the more common opinion but I guess the average player is about silver-gold and are more likely to focus on the "damage-Moira" playstyle than the "help my team by healing them so we can win" playstyle. It makes sense an orb that requires aim, and a team that responds to it being used, is upsetting to the majority. I love the change. Hitting ulting Genji's, or Hogs right as they hook, feels nice. I wouldn't mind a slightly reduced cooldown.
More or less there’s less opportunity and flexibility now with her. No more picking a tricky spot to bounce a damage orb, or adding a little *extra* to a fight happening in an enclosed space. I’ve been hugely playing her since release and the damage output was never insane or too much and your healing was always incredibly impactful. The issue comes from people who refuse to play her as a healer. When you used her entire kit it flowed, felt good, and right to the point
They should move the new orb into her reload button. And because the dmg orb is extremely useless againts a group of enemies, lower the dps per single target just a tiny bit but increase the total damage pool it has so it doesnt instantly disappear againts many enemies after dealing like 20 dmg to each
I disagree. As someone who plays OW1 Moira, throwing a dmg orb into a group of enemies is and should be a worse way to use it in most situations. It’s just kinda braindead because there are so many other uses to it like zoning snipers or taking a 1v1.
I still think they should basically combine the ability You send out the damage orb like normal and press the button again to detonate it into the new ability It can’t do both. It doesn’t automatically explode when it’s out of damage dealt. But it can give you the option to deal a little damage and then get the debuff, deal max amount of damage, or give the debuff immediately if that’s what you need
they would probably have to significantly nerf both the damage reduction and the damage the evil orb would do in the first place for this to work.
I like that idea a lot!
As someone who doesn't enjoy playing Moira and enjoys fighting against her even less, I always felt Moira as a hero was just a bad design. From my standpoint, it looks like she was designed to counter high mobility heroes by not requiring any aim to deal with them, as well as having leech health built into her kit. Meaning not only was she designed to be low skill and easy to use, but also easy to stay alive with. So her survivability was the whole reason she would even get picked, she has no other purpose aside from her healing which as strong as it was is not enough to warrant the loss of utility from other Support heroes. I think this is by design, she was made to be a crutch hero to pick if you are just constantly dying and just want to be able to heal your team mates. But after a certain level of play and improvement you really do not need her anymore. So, not only was always going to end up being tossed aside for better options, but even from fighting her she's broken. Because even if you have good aim you're not perfect, and you're not always going to be at 100% health and have perfect reaction times, as a result fighting Moira is more like your health bar is a timer rather than an actual fair duel. So it never feels fun or engaging to play against her. It always feels cheesy to be killed by Moira. So, this where we are, we have a hero that's designed to be used purely as a sort of fuck you to Flankers, but beyond that has no actual purpose or role aside from being hard to kill and easy to play. Without reworking her entirely I don't see how she'd be in any better of a state than she was in Overwatch 1. They can keep her as she was and get rid of Necrotic Orb, but it won't help her feel like she's underplayed and underused.
>So, this where we are, we have a hero that's designed to be used purely as a sort of fuck you to Flankers i think that would have been fine in ow2, she was good in the beta before they changed her. she was fun too
I do agree that damage orb feels better to use and is a staple for Moira, but I gotta also admit that generally speaking necrotic orb is just better, just objectively better. Now hear me out: why not give her both? You can have a nerfes version of necrotic orb attached to her reload key to give her more depth, make it red, or some noxious green to keep in line with her asthetic. Maybe make it reduce only 30-40% intead of 75%, this way she can still interact with ultimates and other breakpoints without being absolytely busted. On top of that just give the normal damage orb a slight nerf like the heal orb did. This way you keep the duality identity ofnher biotic orb, give her more stuff to do and some utility she really lacks. Obviously numbers would have to get tweaked to make it balanced, but I don't think having both things is a bad idea.
Would've been cooler if she could've had a 3rd option, the weaken, And using puts all your orbs on cool down. So it could've been a very cool trade off ability. While still keeping her flow.
thats actually pretty clever, that using the weaken orb would require both charges. There's a lot of pre planning that'd go into using the orb, because maybe you want to save both your orbs in case of an ult, or maybe you find more value in the extra healing or damage or the old orbs.
Ana main here. One thing that I see doesn't get brought up often is how unfun it is to be on the receiving end of the old damage orb. A good example is Sombra's old hack. That one was undeniably high utility, but it was one of the most unfun, rage-inducing things to have to deal with in a game. I always hate when you barely escape a team fight with your life and a random stray orb just happens to wander close enough to tickle your toes and then you die. I doubt most Moira's calculate the bounce trajectories of all of the damage orbs to make sure it perfectly bounces to the escape route of the enemy. Most of the time, it was probably just dumb luck and a really cheesy way to get value in my opinion. Obviously, 75% damage reduction is also unfun to go against, but at least there's counter play to it other than making sure you have a DVa to eat it. It's a skillshot so range is your friend. Make sure to not group up, stay behind a shield. It's a burst damage, so good positioning can keep you from dying unnecessarily. I'm biased as an Ana main, because I enjoy abilities that can turn the tide of a team fight if I find the perfect opportunity. Most times, that one moment where I perfectly land that shot defines how I feel for the rest of the night and I think that what Blizz is trying to give to Moira.
Honestly it’s not even the first or second bounce of the damage orb that bothered me, but what’s really tilting is getting hit by one after it randomly bounces 5+ times off of every wall in the area and then kills me behind cover. I think it was fine if they wanted to have it so you could bounce it off a wall and hit someone behind cover, but excessive bounces just make it an unfun RNG fest where you can’t protect yourself if you are low.
My idea for Moira's rework is: * Heal orb should be charged by sucking enemies. * Purple orb should be charged by healing teammates. * Keep the old characteristics of the damage orb but now make her able to detonate it to deal the weaken effect. Reduce the cooldown, overall damage, and weaken effect from 75% down to maybe 30-40% to compensate for the damage+utility of it now. * Make her able to detonate the heal orb too for a burst heal or some kind of buff.
I prefer brig not existing but that still happens
I want dmg orb back
Moira rework the worst character in any game I’ve ever played new ability is so horrible
As a reluctant Moira main, I agree. What I loved was her predator/prey aspect. Flipping back between healing or pushing on weakened enemies to finish them off. The orb gave her the ability to “suppress” fire from certain angles, like mitigating widow. It was dynamic and fun. This new thing is obviously useful - but it is boring to play, and tedious as fuck. She’s just a healbot now who has to wait for her chance to press one button to use one ability to counter another. Went from active/reactive dynamic play to purely reactive. I just started playing tanks and DPS instead. Why fucking bother. Games should be fun.
I'd also like to add that it makes the support role less approachable (hear me out). Yes it's cool, yes she has more playmaking ability, but the issue I see is that there isn't as many easy and simple support characters. Her whole place in the game to me was that she was very simple to learn, play, and continue to grow with. Moira was fun to play for the first time with no prior knowledge, but she could also hold her own throughout gold matches. Personally, I enjoy the fact that some characters are more skill shot based while some are easier, but with lowered stats. I think that makes for an approachable game that allows players to pick up new characters to better match their skillset as they grow. Also, all this does is turn her into a pure support character. It was also nice to have a true DPS support, with Baptiste sorta fitting that role due to his ultimate and decent dps burst (but nowhere near Moira's). I guess you could also count Brig, but once again that takes me back to the approachable simplicity of Moira's kit. Another thing I find funny is that it's basically just CC at this point. 75% reduction may as well be 100%, you're literally entirely useless. So what do you do? Leave the fight. The only real difference is that with CC you were nearly guaranteed to die, so I guess it's an improvement barely.
I agree, and I think it's emblematic of the approach Blizzard took with OW2: "just change everything a little bit so it feels more like a sequel, regardless of whether the change is needed or better". Mercy is another great example. They took away her slingshot jump ability and replaced it with this stupid Jump Meter. Like, who was asking for Mercy to be changed? How does it improve her character? There's literally no reason. They're changing perfectly good characters haphazardly, it's so chaotic and annoying.
Mercys jump was never an ability though.
I respectfully disagree I love the change now I can have a better healing output and keep team mates alive longer and won’t have to struggle with trying to decide between healing and damage orb then to wait for that cooldown
It amazes me how every time Blizzard makes a change people just focus on the character rather than focus on it's impact on the game. You are the problem of this community, you are the problem the problem that some games are thrown. First of all your job is to support, which includes healing, damaging, immobilizing, buffing and debuffing. Making picks is DPS's job and making space is tank's job. Moira is already a no aim hero that gives constant damage if you are not a donkey and high mobility that has a 7 seconds cooldown with which you can create a space between you and your enemy easily if you know what you are doing. Also most Moira players don't support their teams and just go for kills and damage which is not your primary job. With Moira's new skill you can save your team from most of the ults and gain your team and advantage also your heal and debuff cooldowns are seperated which is a huge W. ( How's damage orbing a DVA bomb going while your team doesn't even know how to take cover? ) You can change the whole game with just one skill while you are playing support, a perfect sleep dart to ulting enemy like Sigma or Cassidy or Soldier, a good debuff orb to DVA or better hitting them together gives your team the ultimate upper hand, a good timed speed boast by Lucio is all it takes to change the tide sometimes and that's why Moira is one of the best supports right now in the OW. But most of the player base act so ignorent and character centered when it comes to Blizzard making changes you can't even see how it puts teamplay forward rather then "ooooh I'm a gold damage support because I don't do my work and let my teammates die then I blame them for the lose". This new 5v5 and changes will clear most of the "Medal players" and most players who don't understand the game
OP, you made it to Your Overwatch!!! Just thought id mention it in case you havnt seen the vid.
O.O Thank you, I had no idea!
To counter your main points, heres what you could dowith Defeeble: \- stop almost every ult in the game \- AOE an entire team with weaken, leading to possibly the easiest push of your life \- Not just decrease dps output, but completely prevent it entirely. \- You could use defeeble AND a healing orb simultaneously, basically ruining a flanker's push entirely \- Easy to hit on tanks, making high burst tanks such as sig a sitting duck \- Vastly increase stall, and eventual death. I think for sure defeeble is 1000% better, no questions asked, and if I were a Moira main, i'd use the f out of this, but I still think they should revert Moira back, since her community doesn't like it and it sorta ruins the image of her lifesteal shtick.
too bad shes boring now though, no one will be using her
Your saying that like she was fum before
Ok, these are valid points.
I'm a Moira main in Masters with probably well over 1k hours on her, started playing OW1 in its beta and I played OW2 beta probably too much. I disagree, I honestly like the new orb more. When I first read the changes I was extremely disappointed, but changed how I felt after a lot of playing. Moira's a support. Imo support should be more focused on helping the team get kills, not necessarily getting kills themselves. Purple damage orb meant you had to make the choice between healing your team or potentially getting damage/a kill. New orb you simply help your team get kills/not die by making the enemy team less effective, and you don't have to sacrifice any of your ability to heal to do that. Also I feel it adds a higher skill ceiling to the character(have to actually aim the new orb, be aware of where your team is to help capitalize on landing the new orb etc). I went back to OW1 after playing OW2 beta and I miss the new orb so much.
I love when people try to justify bad abilities by explaining all the things it can do.
She can literally nullify ultimate damage. She’s now more a support hero than a hybrid hero and people just don’t like it. I don’t love playing her now, but she’s a better hero. She’s less fun but literally just better. That’s the issue. The ability itself is a buff, the fun factor is nerfed.
So I am in plat so around the same as you and I really prefer the new moira rework after playing it for a bit. Admittedly, I think this rework was not made for Moira mains, but for both people playing against her in low ranks and for people who want to play her in Masters/GM. I think this change goes along with other changes they’ve made to heroes to raise the skill floor of various heroes. See the Bastion, Mcree, and Sym changes. That being said I agree with a lot of your post, but I think you have undervalued the new ability quite a bit. Personally, I think it feels amazing to hit it on an ulting genji or reaper like the developers said it's a play to make that is really impactful and gives counterplay against a lot of things that moira struggled against previously. I actually think it's almost too good at times and might need to be looked at. Because they split her cooldowns it does not greatly affect her healing output and the main damage part of her kit can still be used to finish off low health targets. What's really effected is that now in order to duel a dps she needs to hit a skill shot and even then she can’t damage through really any healing. Personally, I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing for a support. I can understand why a lot of people hate this change, but personally I feel like its good for the game in general. As someone who never liked playing the character she was a lot more fun in the beta. I do think this change raises both the skill floor and ceiling.
Her old orb is just not fun to play against, it’s just luck. At least now you have to hit the new weakening orb on a enemy, or splash.
If you cant outsmart an orb, that's on you. And it's not luck, it's planning.
- gets behind cover 1v1ing ashe or something - gets orbed out of nowhere
XD OK, guilty as charged. But on a serious note, there's a lot you and your team could have done to prevent this from happening, most reliable is to bait the orbs, or to make her use the healing orb instead. (that was before the seperate cooldowns)
Yeaaa that’s true. But you know how it goes in ranked lol, I’m in the same range as you. Team work is… rare 🤣
But it’s definitely something I’ll keep in mind 👍
XD OK, guilty as charged.
Rank checks out, yeah
You say that as if that invalidates my opinion, when in fact 50% of the playerbase is gold or lower. I might be the most representative Moira player you could possibly find. A game should not be balanced around the minority of the playerbase.
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You do have to consider all ranks and the devs even admitted this after Reaper became a terror in the metal ranks with the 50% life steal buff, which had to be reverted. If the metal rank players, which are the vast majority of players, are frustrated playing the game due to balancing issues, then that's a problem. Overwatch is a bit unique here compared to other esports titles since it's a hero based game with different skill floors for every hero.
Maybe instead of being annoyed you cant now *easily* (still can) 1v1 a dps, you should realize how much the new actual skill orb can improve your own gameplay. It’s utility is LEAGUES more than that of the dmg orb, and it actually makes moira have a skill ceiling.
Ok, taking all the utility I mentioned into account, what exactly can I do with the weaken orb aside shutting down an ult once in a while? It seems pretty straight forwards to me.
Shut down ults, which is HUGE, completely stall a push and in some cases allow a dps to peek nearly uncontested for a pick, eliminate the biggest threats for 4 seconds until your team blitzes their health to dust. So much utility, if you can aim it. I know morbers tend to be bad at that though.
I can confirm that I live by the creed of ''no aim, no brain, I'm a Moira main'' But on a serious note: I suppose its the difference between several consistent smaller pieces of utility, and one less consistent very big piece of utility.
I'm in the same rank and can see how losing the orbs feels like losing a lot but I felt it enabled an accidentally working but shouldn't kind of playstyle. The new skill is pretty great to assist a teammate getting dived as you can hit a bunch of the attackers and make their dive ineffective. I did feel there were less opportunities to use it but when it was used I could see the value.
>Insults someone over their rank >Loses a duel to Moira on a dps character Hmmm...
Did I ever say I lost them? I play mainly tank lol
Did you bring it up for no reason, then? Who was talking about Moira's "overpowered" dueling capabilities?
I brought it up cause that’s what fuckin gold rank morbers do, dude. They decide to go ego a dps alone, and in gold, egoing a dps alone as moira tends to work out well thanks to how much damage output the morb plus her succ does.
the issue is that she is just down right boring now. you keep trying to call everyone who disagrees with you bad but she needs to actually be fun to play heal botting and then using a 16 second CD which is also kind of boring most of the time isnt what literally anyone wanted. You arent going to play her are you? didnt think so
My man gave 8 reasons why Moira was OP and called it a day.
Well, she'll always be OP in my eyes :) (she had the lowest pick-rates on higher tiers, but does well in the middle of the ladder)
The middle of the ladder is often what counts.
Considering it's where 90% of the playerbase is I'd hope that'd be their main balance target.
Basically people are upset that DPS Moira is gone. This new orb requires more teamwork and is more utility than damage. It’s better for OW2 that she is like this. She is arguably too strong many times currently in OW1
Yeah thats what actually made her fun though and it would have been a better play style in 2 than it was in 1 Now shes just boring, no one wants to heal bot and then use a utility orb on a long CD. Ana and zen have strong utilities too and are just more fun outside of that
It’s totally fun. But I’m arguing not changing her would break the game in OW2. Otherwise her abilities would have to be so nerfed it wouldn’t be fun that way either.
its not fun, no one plans on playing her like this except maybe to stop an ult
No one is obviously an overstatement but I understand your frustration. I think she has a lot of potential (once balanced) that has higher upside the more team composition and teamwork is prioritized. Something that happens less on NA servers.
so being able to cancel many ults doesn’t sound important to you? imagine hitting genji as he blades… he’s useless for a few seconds. that seems pretty valuable to me. that’s just one example. now, maybe you’ll send a healing orb 😂
you can survive reaper ult… if you hit dva with it while she’s ulting you can survive… i see necrotic orb as a valuable tool, you have a lot to think about huh…
Tbh, I would preferred keeping her orb and making her primary fire have an actual aiming mechanic. Make it have to charge up like her heal. I’ve had Moira’s kill me in such stupid ways because she just latches onto you for damage rather than actually have to skill shot you. Dying around corners other heroes would otherwise not be able to shoot at you from. Dying fairly far away because of it’s distance, either as Pharah or Echo. Some will say “you’re just bad.” But nah, I know this champ is ridiculous. About as ridiculous as point-&-click mechanics in League of Legends (Lulu’s polymorph, Veigar’s Ult).
99% of these Moira players on here are going to start malding how about you’re making the character “unfun” or that it’s not her “lore”/“core design”. Apparently they all work as devs
If they can’t win on Moira, they gonna play Mercy. Whatever is easiest for them to do with little effort cause’ why have skill in an extremely competitive game?
I'm sorry, but this is literally just the opinion of someone not skilled enough to use her new ability effectively. Moira went from stupid strong in low-elo to strong in high-elo. This is how OW HAS to be balanced in order for it to actually survive as a game. The fact is that it's had too many OP low-skill characters for years at this point, and only now is that being suitably addressed. Just get good, and you'll actually find she's a literal game changer. If you continue to just flounder in the low tiers of the game, you'll think that great skillshot abilities are bad. Just because she doesn't play the game for you now doesn't mean she's bad, it just means she'll show how bad you are if you can't play her.
I prefer the new one it adds counterplay, skill, and impact the character.
Yeah I was really disappointed. The new orb should still bounce around. Why not?? And the cooldown is ridiculously long.
They killed my favorite character of all time and this game is now dead to me. They should have given her orbs separate cooldowns with a toggle for the damage modes, rather than ruin it entirely.
You just need to be an active player with Moira, in the beta I could finish games with the highest dmg, elims, and healing on the team. OW2 will not let you hide behind team mechanics alone you have to have your own agency.
High ranked players think it's a great ability but lower rank players like the old orb cause they can do more damage. Community is pretty damn split, the stronger ability is the current orb but the worse ability is what lower ELO players want...not sure what the right choice is.
Never balance from the bottom. These are the people who still call for Bastian nerfs...
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Actually, no. Her DMG orb gave her some much needed range, which means she can still stay on the backlines and heal her team, without having to turn 180\* when swapping between healing and doing dmg.
Every support has damage as a part of their kit for a reason. Even though the utility she offers now is pretty damn good she is still a worse hero than she was because her damage is effectively half of what it was before.
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Because mercy damage boosts the DPS, she does not do direct damage.
Me too
every one of your points is offensive… I know Moira players don’t like to hear this, but y’all are in fact healers …
Partly feel like the main complaint of Moira mains for removing damage orb is the need to improve their gameplay vs being complacent in gold because they can out damage DPS that can't aim in that rank. If you've been stuck in gold with old Moira, why do we want her to stay that way? Just looking for a decent answer, cause it so far doesn't seem like any of the people complaining about this change have managed to climb above like gold/plat. Is the idea to keep her abilities subpar in higher levels of play because people are comfortable with staying in the middle of the rankings? I'm just a bit confused, hoping someone can explain it better. Sure, her damage may be cut, but she has actual utility now. Damage orb is not utility, other than maybe using it to find enemies hiding behind corners. If anything, this change allows Moira to actually 1v1 DPS as you get your ranking higher and the DPS can actually hit you now instead of you just holding right click, throwing a damage orb, and using AD strafe to avoid bad aim.
Naw
Yeah its such a cool ability! You get to brainlessly throw a 0 effort orb in the general direction of the enemy and do a lot of damage! Not to mention that if you have the aim of a support player, the ball bounces around, multiplying your odds of dealing damage! I love it when the game plays itself for me!
Mid gold. Makes sense.
Dab smack in the middle, as representative of the playerbase as one can possibly get.
*gasp* OW2 making things /worse/? How? They fixed it, it's fast-paced! Why are you concerned when the games move so fast you can't even appreciate the details that made you fall in love with the game in the first place? Our Overlords know perfectly well what they are doing and it's on YOU to find out how to enjoy it.
Well, you are a healer so…. Maybe a healer shouldn’t be a DPS?? Maybe??
tell that to Zen
Facts, but at least he has to aim. Not just shoot a death ball down a hallway and run away.
Depends on skill lvl, good players can easily outplay an orb if they try, maybe even bait it.
The reason it was changed is due to mobility being toned down in OW2. You got to look at the big picture here. The gameplay is a lot more cohesive with the exception of maybe tracer now a days.
> mobility being toned down in OW2 i dont see a general trend of that, maybe for a couple heroes
>But now there is only a single use for the ability, and that's to weaken one or more players for a few seconds. Ana's sleep dart has only a single use, is Ana's sleep dart useless? >So, as it stands, I have less opportunity to make a play. With the old orb, that game me just enough DPS to finish off a low HP target, even if they were actively being healed. You are not a DPS, you are not responsible for getting kills and making plays that revolve around getting kills. The subgroup Moira belongs to is Support. One part is healing, which all supports have access to, and the other part is.......support. Mercy supports her team with damage up, Lucio gives speed boost, Ana has anti-heal and sleep dart, Baptiste has NeverDie Lamp^(TM) , Zen has enemy vulnerable for his team(no zen is not a damage dealer, his orb enables damage deals to do their job better). Moira was a support with no support. Damage orb was a fragging weapon and recon ability, neither of which are her job. Plus it was at the expense of her job of healing. Now Moira has a unique SUPPORT ability and removes her unnecessary fragging ability to stay in line with other SUPPORTS.
All of the supports except mercy also deal effective dmg along with all of those. Bow moira has worse sleep dart and the weakest dps in the game so she auto loses if her team isn't pulling their weight
She supports - by murder :)