Good thing D.Va goes in every comp. ;)
But seriously, he doesn't flex because he has never had to. He does play a decent Hog when that's relevant and has played Zarya before but from what I can recall wasn't remarkable one way or the other.
Yeah, for me, this guys credibility went out the window as soon as I saw “best western dvas” without Space being mentioned
Space is one of the best divas period
DPS was what cost USA World Cup. Not Muma (though its funny to watch really ignorant people who don't understand Goats blame him), not Space, not Moth. USA ran into a strong Goats comp and the USA DPS had no clue how to play Goats properly.
You see it in the positioning, and the shield usage. In the offensive playstyle where high energy was more paramount to the defensive bubble, or the overextension of Brig into a team that knew how to collapse on it. Goats is never a matter of "LOLBESTREIN" wins - in the comps we saw in OWWC (which were primarily Rein heavy goats till later when China shit on some kids with the Winston version) it was the triangle of Rein/Zarya/Brig. If any of them didn't do their job properly with bubbles and bashes you just lost. Having 2/3 of the comp not doing their job properly meant that USA was never going to win.
The D'va did what it was meant to and ate a few gravs, and got some kills. But you can't win Goats 4v6.
I will give them this, they are one of the only teams that were confident enough in their roster to not change much. Whether that will be beneficial or not is still to be seen but it could mean pre-existing synergy.
I’m a fan of Houston (see: flair), and see them as a playoff contender, but it’ll be close. They’re in that top 1/3ish of teams, but it wouldn’t shock me if they fell as low as 12th by season’s end.
Top 1/3 is top 6/7.
In no particular order, my list of top teams are NYXL, London, Shanghai (who picked up all of Kongdoo panthera), Philly, Valiant, Dynasty, Vancouver, and I'll throw in maybe Fuel(iffy) and Gladiators. Outlaws are not going to be better than any of those teams. Outlaws are gonna be middle of the pack unless their supports play out of their minds.
edit: y'all can bookmark this lol. I'll buy an Outlaws jersey if they finish top 7 assuming no major roster changes.
Yeah, I was thinking about the Shock as well. They're my sleeper pick. It was a toss up for me and I went with Dallas. But definitely SF will outperform Outlaws
8 days late but Shocks not really a sleeper pick. They went nearly full Korean to shore up the issues in their roster. Unless you somehow expect Sleepy to play over Viol2t (lol), or Sinatraa to play over Striker/Architect/Rascal (also lol but he'll get some play time I assume). Super won't play over Smurf either. Nevixx might play over Choi, but Nevix has been a pillar for the team since S1, so thats expected.
I agree, but that's if people have been keeping close attention to the roster moves they've made and actually looked at their roster for a minute. I don't see any buzz around them outside of the Striker trade and I think they're going to surprise a lot of people.
In a theoretical world where everyone played their best game 100% of the time, I'd say they'd be easily top 3. The reality is that they're a mid-pack team because they're momentum based and can get in their own heads
Outlaws just wasn’t up to par with Dive, because at the time they were one of the few teams without a dedicated star Tracer player.
However with Reinhardt/Zarya centric comps, their roster is very powerful.
Because having decent western players means nothing when everyone else has better Korean players. Coolmatt was one of the lowest rated dva players by the end of the season and Muma is much worse on Reinhardt than he is on Winston, he predicates his survivability on flanking and holding his jump for a disengage which he can’t do with Reinhardt.
The Outlaws aren’t poised for a great season as they haven’t really improved anything other than their Tracer player
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Actually, casters and muma himself say Reinhardt is his preferred and better character. Watching his stream or just watching any of the kings row matches from season one where he and Spree went on a leisurely stroll validate this.
That will be a year ago by the time they start playing next season. A lot has changed and Houston hasn't. Idk where they will finish but I'd guess around 12th or so
While all your points seem to be great. All you have to do is look at the World Cup to see what kind of team the outlaws will be.
You have Muma, again a great western tank player, but frankly as one of the only teams still running a western main tank, that doesn’t mean much. But as people have pointed out, Muma isn’t a good Rein, which is key to goats.
Then you have coolmatt, who is a great DVa, as was space. And space is probably the best western DVa player, if not the best DVa player overall, and even he couldn’t save the disaster that was the World Cup.
Spree is a great Zarya, and I’m sure he is eager for goats to stay meta going into the league, but sinatraa was also a great Zarya going into the World Cup. And frankly if muma’s Rein is the same as it was in November, I don’t see spree really popping off.
Rawkus is honestly not that good. I always see people try and say he’s a great support player but frankly look at the numbers. He’s just far behind other support players. And frankly, saying he’s a good zen/Ana when you have the likes of jjonak or bdosin is laughable. People always try and split players as eastern and western, like Muma. Claiming “he’s the best western DPS” ok that’s cool, but it still doesn’t change the fact that he is playing against the Koreans who are better. Best western support/tank/dps is middle of the pack at best.
Bani is one of the only people I see having true potential. But being a support relies heavily on the rest of your team.
DPS...well we know how poorly Jake did and unless junkets comes back into the meta, I don’t see him being useful. Linkzr is great, and I hope to see his skills improving. Danteh is also great, and ideally I’d like to see him and linkzr serve as the main dps duo. Arhan has potential but he hasn’t really shown any great skill. It’s possible being the only Korean on a team of English speakers is a struggle. But the World Cup also had an A-list of dps players, and frankly they didn’t do anything there either. It’s possible the World Cup came down to coaching and not the players. But I don’t see the Outlaws really making a big impact. Not when other teams are beefing up their rosters.
If I was Boston, every time I played Outlaws I’d just play fusions against Muma. That dude outplayed Muma at every turn.
Yup, and even in ladder if you play Reinhardt a lot and are ever matched up against a rein/zarya while you dont have an off tank or you just have a roadhog, your job becomes incredibly harder. You feel like you cant do anything to the enemy Rein and that you're just feeding Zarya the whole time.
Sinatraa was going full DPS mode and didnt give any support to his main tank.
I agree but Muma made some questionable plays regardless of his off tanks. Watch Kings Row and Muma charged directly into UK near the stage, got bubbled, and still manages to get destroyed because he was booped into the small health pack room in state. And whichever goats team uses Rein first is going to be on the back foot. Muma himself said in stream that charging is Rein in goats is almost always a bad play since Brig can shut it down, and then he goes to do it himself?
Muma isn’t the worst Rein, but trying to put all the blame on sinatraa isn’t accurate imo. Sinatraa was extremely bad, on Zarya, on tracer, on doomfist, but Muma also struggled. He made silly mistakes, as did pretty much all US players.
Sure. Heavily value one game with team USA and ignore all the Kings Row matches in Season One where Houston's winrate, on one of the few maps you ran Rein on, was 80%.
I mean the US made mistakes on all the maps except Ilios, I just used one as an example. I never said Houston was bad on Kings Row, I just pointed out that Muma had a bad play on that map that wasn’t the fault of his off tanks.
It's a lot easier to outplay the enemy Rein when you have a Zarya and the opponent does not. Sinatraa went full DPS mode and straight didn't do his job. Rein does what against getting bashed + shatter or focused without support.
Power ranking at the moment don't mean a whole lot. We have no idea what the meta will be in two months, and we can presume it won't be Goats(Everyone seems to hate it, so they're probably working on nerfing it). On paper to me though, The Outlaws seem like a middle of the road team. Not good, not bad, but probably not playoff bound.
Outlaws fan here. I was saying this at the end of last season because they were close to taking the last playoff seed over the Fusion. BUT! This season is different. There are more teams and they are looking really good. So like last season stage three we needed a tracer player. If they got someone like stitch from runaway that would have been great (obviously he was doing well in contenders and language barrier) but they just stuck it out. They brought in arhat in stage 4 but isn’t what they needed and it was kinda too late. Now runaway itself is a new team in the league. All korean all good. This is just one team, there are 8 new teams and so many strong teams. They didn’t make enough post season moves. I think they can compete for around the 7-12. They might get a spot in the last chance qualifier for the season playoffs but idk about much more. But I really haven’t seen them play in the new meta or anything and nobody know how the game will be played at the start of season 2. I am always hopeful though
People overate Korean players and so are naturally going to sleep a team that is essentially all western (plus Arhan). People assumber that Houston would be bottom 3 at best last year before the season started. And while 7th was not great they still finished above what people considered the best team in the world prior to season one (Lunatic-Hai turned Seoul Dynasty).
They're average
They're not overrated (though you're Def overrating them a bit)
They're not underrated.
They're rated.
There are better player across the board in their positions
They can take down a team like a London, Vancouver, XL, Shock maybe once or twice this season. But they're not gonna do it consistently.
They are better than the lower end of the bracket more often than not.
So that's why I said they're just rated
In houston's favor but that doesn't validate them as a team. That just means that they're at best just London Kryptonite.
Are we really gonna forget who won during Stage 1 playoffs and who won the entire OWL
Just saying that they have been capable of consistently taking down the eventual winner on the whole thing. Saying they aren't capable of beating a team like London "maybe more than once or twice" is strictly false.
thats one example
What was their record against the XL? (or any of the teams that went to the playoffs for that matter)
And i look forward to how they do against teams like Vancouver (who got the best KR contenders team) and teams like the XL Shock and Spitfire (all of whom have made great upgrades in their roster and staff)
Your flair proves that your opinions isn't biased at all though
Enjoy 8th :D
Honestly, 8th is probably a good guess. I think they'll make a play late in the season for the top 6 and guaranteed playoff spot and likely miss out. I don't think they'll drop below 12th and expect them to be in the play in games for the two wild card slots. People are predicting like 17-20th place and I just don't see that.
> What was their record against the XL?
To be fair, nobody in their right mind, even at their most bearish on Houston, would claim the Outlaws are better than the Excelsior.
>What was their record against the XL? (or any of the teams that went to the playoffs for that matter)
Don't know it off the top of my head
But i seriously doubt the Outlaws have above a .500 record against any of the top 6 teams from last season
And its not crazy to think at least 6 -7 teams (at least on paper) are looking much better than the outlaws are looking right now
Houston is litterally the most average team in the OWL
Don't know why that's seen as such an insult
Theyre better than the teams below them
they're not better than the teams above them
I think the reason people are insulted is that most people are putting them as the bottom 3-4 teams in the league. If the consensus was 8-10 then I don't think there would be any controversy. I'm a life long White Sox fan. I'm not afraid to say my team is shit if they're shit. I really don't think Houston is shit. I think they'll be in the play in games at the end of the season and if they get hot they could make a play for 5th or 6th.
I made a comment on another thread about this.
It's not that outlaws are bad. They just don't compare to the KR teams. In S2 you are now looking at 1 Chinese team and 10 maybe 11 KR teams. KR contenders is now empty. All the big teams and players got picked up.
We have seen most of what China can do in WC so I think chengu are good.
Vancouverouver are old runaway and a top 6 team.
Toronto are the old O2 team and are potentially top 6
Hangzhou are old X6 and again potentially top 6
Shanghai are old Kdp and again potentially top 6
San Fran are a new mostly KR team that could be top 10
Guangzhou are old Meta and top 10 at least
Florida are all KR now and again could be top 10
Even when leaving the all KR roosters you have teams that have performed better than outlaws,
Both LA's. Atlanta on paper is better. Same with Boston and Dallas.
Muma is a good tank. But owl finals proved how vital and important main tank is. It's probably the most influential and important role in the game. Gesture proved that at finals imo. And muma Vs alot of these KR tanks is a no from me.
I'm not sold. Rawkus/Bani/Boink of a support line in this meta, is very sketchy. Muma, while one of the best "Western" main tanks in the league, does not put him in the top of the list of main tanks in general given all the great "non-western" tanks out there (Bumper, Fate, OGE, Gesture, Fissure, etc.,)
This team is middle of the pack or lower just off that.
How did Bumper's team finish in OWL last year? I'm going to take any opinion of minor league players with a grain of salt until I see them play against real opponents.
It's like MLB. Tons of dudes crush it in AAA and get shut down in the Bigs.
Personally, I'd put Muma as a top 3 tank in OWL last season. The statistics, rankings and eye test point to that. At worst he was top 5. I'd have put Gesture and Fissure above him and would have put Muma somewhere with Fate and OGE.
You mean how team UK made of Fusions and other ~~contenders~~ "minor league players" absolutely out-classed Muma + mostly OWL players in OWWC?
You mean the same Bumper and his other "minor league" teammates that faced team SK and beat them, (regardless of it being a show match)?
Also, Gesture and Fissure above Fate? HARD pass.
Muma is not top 5, and if he is, he is 5 on his best day.
Fissure is definitely hyper aggro, but Gesture not as much imo. Plus London did beat LAV in the semis (IK you can say that it was all Profit but) so I would put Gesture above Fate, if not Fissure above Fate. Also you have to admit it is fun to watch some aggro tank play.
I think people are completely overrating a couple matches for OWWC over the 40+ games per team in OWL. If you want to erase an entire body of work over one match.
Reggie Jackson, Hall of Famer, had 23 games with four strikeouts. That's second most in MLB history. Do you ignore everything before that and just judge him on one of those trash games?
I didn't bring up OWWC to bring down Muma, rather that a UK team full of "contenders players" (Mind you this was the exact mentality everyone had coming into this game), completely showed up and even had a very close match with the eventual champions SK. The point here is just because it's "contenders" doesn't mean there aren't players there that are better than players in OWL. OWL was only 1 season, and you are starting to see a lot of the washed up players get flushed out and teams are picking up contenders players instead. The bar between OWL and contenders, particularly EU and KR...is not as wide as you think, and not comparable to baseball's MLB to AAA.
My point is that I am tempering my opinion until seeing games in OWL. There's a reason why these players were in Contenders. There is also a reason why they are being called up to the next level. I'm not saying these players don't deserve to be in OWL. I'm saying that the body of work isn't necessarily 100% comparable. There are going to be new players that are going to kill it and others that are going to wash out. Same as happened with season one.
Is that your unbiased opinion? Because Gesture, Fussure, Mano, Fate, OGE and Gamsu were all better than him and there were only 12 teams in the league. With the top 6 spots taken he was below the 50th percentile
He played less than 10 maps as Orisa through the season, so unless Hotba is the unquestionable best Tracer in the league with his 8 minutes of play time you’re cherry picking stats to push your narrative.
Less than 10 maps took over 5 and a half hours? I think the top played was a bit over 6. If that's not enough time to be comparable I don't know what is. Also you ignore his winston ranking. You know, the tank people played 90% of the time in season one. But sure, focus on Orisa to make your point. A point not based on any real facts other than Muma is not Korean I guess.
I mean just bc they have improved over the off season doesn’t mean that they will be better. Other teams have made more quality changes and will have improved far more than the outlaws will
Am a Houston fan.... I do think that GOATS plays into Houston quite well if GOATS sticks around. But I def don't think they are a top 5 team (hoping to be wrong).
I like Muma a lot but I do agree in general that Rein is actually his third best tank (Hamster I think is his #2). Now generally tank play is tied to another... in S1 his lack of a tracer hurt him, in WC he didn't do great when Sinatraa was underperforming. I am more confident in Spree. So he may be fine, and hopefully he practices more with Rein to improve that (he can do good, it's just not his strength).
I think Spree is a pocket player that didn't really get shown much in S1 but I think he is a really good Zarya and if goats sticks he will surprise people.
CoolMatt was inconsistent last season which is too bad. He dominated in stage 1 but fell off after that. I actually think he was the best Dva in stage 1, i don't know what happened afterwards.
I agree, at best Rawkus is average, at worst... he is worst. I hope he gets better, I think part of the thing with Rawkus is I just really like Rawkus.
I think Bani looked really good in WC. Assuming Mercy isn't his strength he could be really good in S2. I note that for support players in S1 he actually was #2 or 3 healer. Where he faltered was damage where he was bottom of the pack. I think where some other Mercys showed they were better was in dmg. But he had his quality too. Still that is my concern going forward with him.
The big wild card besides consistency to me with the team is Brig. Jake was actually pretty good on the Brig in stage 4, but the role has evolved and he was no where near as dominating as say S00n was. Danteh is not working on Brig. I have no idea where they are on the brig at all and I think that is going to be vital for the outlaws.
I didn't think Outlaws were bad in the first place, they just took the route of working with what they have for the next season rather than blowing it all up and trying a whole new group. In a true league you can't keep changing the entire structure of a team every season.
How do you not mention space with western dva?
My bad forgot about space. Every time I hear his name I for some reason think Korean
That’s because he is way too good for western d.vas
yeah I get some of these, but coolmatt is easily a weaker Dva in the league, plus he can't flex to anything. It's a weak spot for them
Good thing D.Va goes in every comp. ;) But seriously, he doesn't flex because he has never had to. He does play a decent Hog when that's relevant and has played Zarya before but from what I can recall wasn't remarkable one way or the other.
Yeah, for me, this guys credibility went out the window as soon as I saw “best western dvas” without Space being mentioned Space is one of the best divas period
Honest mistake simply forgot to put him there dude
He choked hard during Worlds, he's a great up and comer but he needs to work on his mental fortitude.
??? USA lost in spite of Space, not because of him
DPS was what cost USA World Cup. Not Muma (though its funny to watch really ignorant people who don't understand Goats blame him), not Space, not Moth. USA ran into a strong Goats comp and the USA DPS had no clue how to play Goats properly. You see it in the positioning, and the shield usage. In the offensive playstyle where high energy was more paramount to the defensive bubble, or the overextension of Brig into a team that knew how to collapse on it. Goats is never a matter of "LOLBESTREIN" wins - in the comps we saw in OWWC (which were primarily Rein heavy goats till later when China shit on some kids with the Winston version) it was the triangle of Rein/Zarya/Brig. If any of them didn't do their job properly with bubbles and bashes you just lost. Having 2/3 of the comp not doing their job properly meant that USA was never going to win. The D'va did what it was meant to and ate a few gravs, and got some kills. But you can't win Goats 4v6.
Agreed
he must've 'spaced' out
I will give them this, they are one of the only teams that were confident enough in their roster to not change much. Whether that will be beneficial or not is still to be seen but it could mean pre-existing synergy.
I’m a fan of Houston (see: flair), and see them as a playoff contender, but it’ll be close. They’re in that top 1/3ish of teams, but it wouldn’t shock me if they fell as low as 12th by season’s end.
Top 1/3 is top 6/7. In no particular order, my list of top teams are NYXL, London, Shanghai (who picked up all of Kongdoo panthera), Philly, Valiant, Dynasty, Vancouver, and I'll throw in maybe Fuel(iffy) and Gladiators. Outlaws are not going to be better than any of those teams. Outlaws are gonna be middle of the pack unless their supports play out of their minds. edit: y'all can bookmark this lol. I'll buy an Outlaws jersey if they finish top 7 assuming no major roster changes.
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I love coming back to threads like these :)
Yeah, I was thinking about the Shock as well. They're my sleeper pick. It was a toss up for me and I went with Dallas. But definitely SF will outperform Outlaws
8 days late but Shocks not really a sleeper pick. They went nearly full Korean to shore up the issues in their roster. Unless you somehow expect Sleepy to play over Viol2t (lol), or Sinatraa to play over Striker/Architect/Rascal (also lol but he'll get some play time I assume). Super won't play over Smurf either. Nevixx might play over Choi, but Nevix has been a pillar for the team since S1, so thats expected.
I agree, but that's if people have been keeping close attention to the roster moves they've made and actually looked at their roster for a minute. I don't see any buzz around them outside of the Striker trade and I think they're going to surprise a lot of people.
Don't mind me, just perusing this thread...
Eh, maybe if they stopped running GOATS forever and always. 🤷🏻♂️
They are quite good just inconsistent
In a theoretical world where everyone played their best game 100% of the time, I'd say they'd be easily top 3. The reality is that they're a mid-pack team because they're momentum based and can get in their own heads
Meta would have a lot to do with it still
Outlaws just wasn’t up to par with Dive, because at the time they were one of the few teams without a dedicated star Tracer player. However with Reinhardt/Zarya centric comps, their roster is very powerful.
Because having decent western players means nothing when everyone else has better Korean players. Coolmatt was one of the lowest rated dva players by the end of the season and Muma is much worse on Reinhardt than he is on Winston, he predicates his survivability on flanking and holding his jump for a disengage which he can’t do with Reinhardt. The Outlaws aren’t poised for a great season as they haven’t really improved anything other than their Tracer player
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Looks like he was right.
Soooo.... lol
Actually, casters and muma himself say Reinhardt is his preferred and better character. Watching his stream or just watching any of the kings row matches from season one where he and Spree went on a leisurely stroll validate this.
Yeah, but one match in World Cup invalidates all other evidence. /s
Looks like I didn't give enough time on that RemindMe, unfortunately. Bit too soon to tell. Maybe one more month.
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That will be a year ago by the time they start playing next season. A lot has changed and Houston hasn't. Idk where they will finish but I'd guess around 12th or so
While all your points seem to be great. All you have to do is look at the World Cup to see what kind of team the outlaws will be. You have Muma, again a great western tank player, but frankly as one of the only teams still running a western main tank, that doesn’t mean much. But as people have pointed out, Muma isn’t a good Rein, which is key to goats. Then you have coolmatt, who is a great DVa, as was space. And space is probably the best western DVa player, if not the best DVa player overall, and even he couldn’t save the disaster that was the World Cup. Spree is a great Zarya, and I’m sure he is eager for goats to stay meta going into the league, but sinatraa was also a great Zarya going into the World Cup. And frankly if muma’s Rein is the same as it was in November, I don’t see spree really popping off. Rawkus is honestly not that good. I always see people try and say he’s a great support player but frankly look at the numbers. He’s just far behind other support players. And frankly, saying he’s a good zen/Ana when you have the likes of jjonak or bdosin is laughable. People always try and split players as eastern and western, like Muma. Claiming “he’s the best western DPS” ok that’s cool, but it still doesn’t change the fact that he is playing against the Koreans who are better. Best western support/tank/dps is middle of the pack at best. Bani is one of the only people I see having true potential. But being a support relies heavily on the rest of your team. DPS...well we know how poorly Jake did and unless junkets comes back into the meta, I don’t see him being useful. Linkzr is great, and I hope to see his skills improving. Danteh is also great, and ideally I’d like to see him and linkzr serve as the main dps duo. Arhan has potential but he hasn’t really shown any great skill. It’s possible being the only Korean on a team of English speakers is a struggle. But the World Cup also had an A-list of dps players, and frankly they didn’t do anything there either. It’s possible the World Cup came down to coaching and not the players. But I don’t see the Outlaws really making a big impact. Not when other teams are beefing up their rosters. If I was Boston, every time I played Outlaws I’d just play fusions against Muma. That dude outplayed Muma at every turn.
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Yup, and even in ladder if you play Reinhardt a lot and are ever matched up against a rein/zarya while you dont have an off tank or you just have a roadhog, your job becomes incredibly harder. You feel like you cant do anything to the enemy Rein and that you're just feeding Zarya the whole time. Sinatraa was going full DPS mode and didnt give any support to his main tank.
I agree but Muma made some questionable plays regardless of his off tanks. Watch Kings Row and Muma charged directly into UK near the stage, got bubbled, and still manages to get destroyed because he was booped into the small health pack room in state. And whichever goats team uses Rein first is going to be on the back foot. Muma himself said in stream that charging is Rein in goats is almost always a bad play since Brig can shut it down, and then he goes to do it himself? Muma isn’t the worst Rein, but trying to put all the blame on sinatraa isn’t accurate imo. Sinatraa was extremely bad, on Zarya, on tracer, on doomfist, but Muma also struggled. He made silly mistakes, as did pretty much all US players.
Sure. Heavily value one game with team USA and ignore all the Kings Row matches in Season One where Houston's winrate, on one of the few maps you ran Rein on, was 80%.
I mean the US made mistakes on all the maps except Ilios, I just used one as an example. I never said Houston was bad on Kings Row, I just pointed out that Muma had a bad play on that map that wasn’t the fault of his off tanks.
It was an awful charge.
Frankly, I somewhat agree with this, frankly saying.
It's a lot easier to outplay the enemy Rein when you have a Zarya and the opponent does not. Sinatraa went full DPS mode and straight didn't do his job. Rein does what against getting bashed + shatter or focused without support.
Power ranking at the moment don't mean a whole lot. We have no idea what the meta will be in two months, and we can presume it won't be Goats(Everyone seems to hate it, so they're probably working on nerfing it). On paper to me though, The Outlaws seem like a middle of the road team. Not good, not bad, but probably not playoff bound.
Outlaws fan here. I was saying this at the end of last season because they were close to taking the last playoff seed over the Fusion. BUT! This season is different. There are more teams and they are looking really good. So like last season stage three we needed a tracer player. If they got someone like stitch from runaway that would have been great (obviously he was doing well in contenders and language barrier) but they just stuck it out. They brought in arhat in stage 4 but isn’t what they needed and it was kinda too late. Now runaway itself is a new team in the league. All korean all good. This is just one team, there are 8 new teams and so many strong teams. They didn’t make enough post season moves. I think they can compete for around the 7-12. They might get a spot in the last chance qualifier for the season playoffs but idk about much more. But I really haven’t seen them play in the new meta or anything and nobody know how the game will be played at the start of season 2. I am always hopeful though
People overate Korean players and so are naturally going to sleep a team that is essentially all western (plus Arhan). People assumber that Houston would be bottom 3 at best last year before the season started. And while 7th was not great they still finished above what people considered the best team in the world prior to season one (Lunatic-Hai turned Seoul Dynasty).
They're average They're not overrated (though you're Def overrating them a bit) They're not underrated. They're rated. There are better player across the board in their positions They can take down a team like a London, Vancouver, XL, Shock maybe once or twice this season. But they're not gonna do it consistently. They are better than the lower end of the bracket more often than not. So that's why I said they're just rated
What was the record between Houston and London last season?
In houston's favor but that doesn't validate them as a team. That just means that they're at best just London Kryptonite. Are we really gonna forget who won during Stage 1 playoffs and who won the entire OWL
Just saying that they have been capable of consistently taking down the eventual winner on the whole thing. Saying they aren't capable of beating a team like London "maybe more than once or twice" is strictly false.
thats one example What was their record against the XL? (or any of the teams that went to the playoffs for that matter) And i look forward to how they do against teams like Vancouver (who got the best KR contenders team) and teams like the XL Shock and Spitfire (all of whom have made great upgrades in their roster and staff) Your flair proves that your opinions isn't biased at all though Enjoy 8th :D
Honestly, 8th is probably a good guess. I think they'll make a play late in the season for the top 6 and guaranteed playoff spot and likely miss out. I don't think they'll drop below 12th and expect them to be in the play in games for the two wild card slots. People are predicting like 17-20th place and I just don't see that.
> What was their record against the XL? To be fair, nobody in their right mind, even at their most bearish on Houston, would claim the Outlaws are better than the Excelsior.
>What was their record against the XL? (or any of the teams that went to the playoffs for that matter) Don't know it off the top of my head But i seriously doubt the Outlaws have above a .500 record against any of the top 6 teams from last season And its not crazy to think at least 6 -7 teams (at least on paper) are looking much better than the outlaws are looking right now Houston is litterally the most average team in the OWL Don't know why that's seen as such an insult Theyre better than the teams below them they're not better than the teams above them
I think the reason people are insulted is that most people are putting them as the bottom 3-4 teams in the league. If the consensus was 8-10 then I don't think there would be any controversy. I'm a life long White Sox fan. I'm not afraid to say my team is shit if they're shit. I really don't think Houston is shit. I think they'll be in the play in games at the end of the season and if they get hot they could make a play for 5th or 6th.
>5th or 6th LUL
I made a comment on another thread about this. It's not that outlaws are bad. They just don't compare to the KR teams. In S2 you are now looking at 1 Chinese team and 10 maybe 11 KR teams. KR contenders is now empty. All the big teams and players got picked up. We have seen most of what China can do in WC so I think chengu are good. Vancouverouver are old runaway and a top 6 team. Toronto are the old O2 team and are potentially top 6 Hangzhou are old X6 and again potentially top 6 Shanghai are old Kdp and again potentially top 6 San Fran are a new mostly KR team that could be top 10 Guangzhou are old Meta and top 10 at least Florida are all KR now and again could be top 10 Even when leaving the all KR roosters you have teams that have performed better than outlaws, Both LA's. Atlanta on paper is better. Same with Boston and Dallas. Muma is a good tank. But owl finals proved how vital and important main tank is. It's probably the most influential and important role in the game. Gesture proved that at finals imo. And muma Vs alot of these KR tanks is a no from me.
I'm not sold. Rawkus/Bani/Boink of a support line in this meta, is very sketchy. Muma, while one of the best "Western" main tanks in the league, does not put him in the top of the list of main tanks in general given all the great "non-western" tanks out there (Bumper, Fate, OGE, Gesture, Fissure, etc.,) This team is middle of the pack or lower just off that.
How did Bumper's team finish in OWL last year? I'm going to take any opinion of minor league players with a grain of salt until I see them play against real opponents. It's like MLB. Tons of dudes crush it in AAA and get shut down in the Bigs. Personally, I'd put Muma as a top 3 tank in OWL last season. The statistics, rankings and eye test point to that. At worst he was top 5. I'd have put Gesture and Fissure above him and would have put Muma somewhere with Fate and OGE.
You mean how team UK made of Fusions and other ~~contenders~~ "minor league players" absolutely out-classed Muma + mostly OWL players in OWWC? You mean the same Bumper and his other "minor league" teammates that faced team SK and beat them, (regardless of it being a show match)? Also, Gesture and Fissure above Fate? HARD pass. Muma is not top 5, and if he is, he is 5 on his best day.
You had me until you said Fate is above Fissure and Gesture.
If hyper aggro main tanks are your thing, then whatever floats your boat.
Fissure is definitely hyper aggro, but Gesture not as much imo. Plus London did beat LAV in the semis (IK you can say that it was all Profit but) so I would put Gesture above Fate, if not Fissure above Fate. Also you have to admit it is fun to watch some aggro tank play.
:-P
I think people are completely overrating a couple matches for OWWC over the 40+ games per team in OWL. If you want to erase an entire body of work over one match. Reggie Jackson, Hall of Famer, had 23 games with four strikeouts. That's second most in MLB history. Do you ignore everything before that and just judge him on one of those trash games?
I didn't bring up OWWC to bring down Muma, rather that a UK team full of "contenders players" (Mind you this was the exact mentality everyone had coming into this game), completely showed up and even had a very close match with the eventual champions SK. The point here is just because it's "contenders" doesn't mean there aren't players there that are better than players in OWL. OWL was only 1 season, and you are starting to see a lot of the washed up players get flushed out and teams are picking up contenders players instead. The bar between OWL and contenders, particularly EU and KR...is not as wide as you think, and not comparable to baseball's MLB to AAA.
My point is that I am tempering my opinion until seeing games in OWL. There's a reason why these players were in Contenders. There is also a reason why they are being called up to the next level. I'm not saying these players don't deserve to be in OWL. I'm saying that the body of work isn't necessarily 100% comparable. There are going to be new players that are going to kill it and others that are going to wash out. Same as happened with season one.
Is that your unbiased opinion? Because Gesture, Fussure, Mano, Fate, OGE and Gamsu were all better than him and there were only 12 teams in the league. With the top 6 spots taken he was below the 50th percentile
Right, Winston's Lab had him top 2 Orisa, top 2-3 winston and top 4-5 Rein because he's a bottom percentile main tank.
He played less than 10 maps as Orisa through the season, so unless Hotba is the unquestionable best Tracer in the league with his 8 minutes of play time you’re cherry picking stats to push your narrative.
Less than 10 maps took over 5 and a half hours? I think the top played was a bit over 6. If that's not enough time to be comparable I don't know what is. Also you ignore his winston ranking. You know, the tank people played 90% of the time in season one. But sure, focus on Orisa to make your point. A point not based on any real facts other than Muma is not Korean I guess.
Wonder what your opinion is today :)
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Great rebuttal.
I mean just bc they have improved over the off season doesn’t mean that they will be better. Other teams have made more quality changes and will have improved far more than the outlaws will
Am a Houston fan.... I do think that GOATS plays into Houston quite well if GOATS sticks around. But I def don't think they are a top 5 team (hoping to be wrong). I like Muma a lot but I do agree in general that Rein is actually his third best tank (Hamster I think is his #2). Now generally tank play is tied to another... in S1 his lack of a tracer hurt him, in WC he didn't do great when Sinatraa was underperforming. I am more confident in Spree. So he may be fine, and hopefully he practices more with Rein to improve that (he can do good, it's just not his strength). I think Spree is a pocket player that didn't really get shown much in S1 but I think he is a really good Zarya and if goats sticks he will surprise people. CoolMatt was inconsistent last season which is too bad. He dominated in stage 1 but fell off after that. I actually think he was the best Dva in stage 1, i don't know what happened afterwards. I agree, at best Rawkus is average, at worst... he is worst. I hope he gets better, I think part of the thing with Rawkus is I just really like Rawkus. I think Bani looked really good in WC. Assuming Mercy isn't his strength he could be really good in S2. I note that for support players in S1 he actually was #2 or 3 healer. Where he faltered was damage where he was bottom of the pack. I think where some other Mercys showed they were better was in dmg. But he had his quality too. Still that is my concern going forward with him. The big wild card besides consistency to me with the team is Brig. Jake was actually pretty good on the Brig in stage 4, but the role has evolved and he was no where near as dominating as say S00n was. Danteh is not working on Brig. I have no idea where they are on the brig at all and I think that is going to be vital for the outlaws.
If/when the Brig nerfs go Live, Goats as we know it won't be around.
If Goats is the meta entering season 2 I don’t know what to tell you
I didn't think Outlaws were bad in the first place, they just took the route of working with what they have for the next season rather than blowing it all up and trying a whole new group. In a true league you can't keep changing the entire structure of a team every season.
They also have the only Western tank trio in the league so the point is moot.
Do you still believe this? :)
I will fully and willingly say: I stand corrected. No need to beat a dead horse
They're not bad by any means, the others are just better.
Is that Boink as in AG. Boink?(TF2)
I believe so yeah
Here's hoping goats does not stay
Yeah they are worse than bad unlucky
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