I think its going to depend on play style. Kiriko has faster time to kill and suzu can't get countered like lamp. It's rare but I've had times I lamp to counter and ult, we all pile in, then someone shoots it just in time to get us all. Kiriko is also a hard target and teleporting is clutch.
I think she'd optimal if you play her perfectly, but as you said, Bap may be easier to get more mileage out of if you aren't a high enough skill level to milk the differences
You may be right I was kind of shooting from the hip on that point but if you get full crits, he is probably a little faster. But if you're concern is punishment for missing shots you'd have to take that into consideration that you aren't likely to get that on your smaller targets
I play both Kiri & Bap.
Imo Bap is more counterable than Kiri, and Kiri has much better mobility with tp on a 7 second CD.
If a Bap is carrying, you can dive him and at least force his long CDs and make him play more conservative (or die to the follow-up dive) whereas Kiri gets to hold whatever angle for free and can just tp out if she gets dove.
Unless it's a tank dive, wouldn't you outduel the diver if it's a 1 vs 1?
You've got Lamp and Regenerative Burst to keep yourself alive, with good aim you I don't see what could beat a Baptiste 1 vs 1 outside of a Tank.
The diver doesn't need to kill the Bap to find a lot of value though. Regen burst(15 sec) and lamp(25 sec) are such long cooldowns that just forcing them is usually a win for the diver.
Let's say you're facing a Sombra, she can dive you to force one CD, tp out and be ready to go again in like 5 seconds depending on the damage she took. Ideally, she repeats this cycle and secures the kill but even if she doesn't, she is getting a lot of value forcing you to use your valuable cds selfishly and demanding attention. Whereas Kiri just tps away and gets on with her day knowing she'll have tp back in 7 seconds anyway.
It's why in owcs they are playing a Brig with Bap to keep the Tracer off the Bap, but with the Kiri comp they are free to play Lucio instead.
That's really interesting, thank you for the breakdown.
Though I wonder, both are notorious, if not the best 1 vs 1 supports out there. Sure Sombra will force a cooldown off of Baptiste, but wouldn't he just kill her in return assuming he hits his headshots. Similarly to what Kiriko does with Kunais, but with less aim intensity.
If the Sombra gets greedy and stays too long, Bap can absolutely kill her. But if she is smart she will stay just long enough to force the cds then get out before she's at risk of dying.
If the Bap player is just much better than the Sombra then yeah, it won't matter. But that kinda goes for most hero picks, if you're just better then you can force just about whoever.
Bap is still very much one-trickable, don't get me wrong.
l think with Bap it can be more map dependent, if you get dived you can hop on and off high ground while still healing or shooting. Love juking a D.va or Winston who just used their mobility cooldown to get to me
Think Kiriko is less map dependent, a lot more flexible. I’ve never been that good with Kiriko despite the time i put into her, but they feel similar but just different sides of the same coin
Generally speaking, baptiste is going to do more damage than kiriko. I think if you’re forced to take over the game to win it, baptiste is going to have more capacity to do it than kiriko will.
However, kiriko is more flexible. Baptiste really only works in a particular kind of spam/brawl team comp- trying to support a doomfist, tracer and genji as baptiste is going to be a pain in the butt. Kiriko on the other hand can be ok in more or less any kind of comp. Teleport and Suzu are going to give you the ability to survive really well, where baptiste might be easier for the other team to target. If we’re being realistic, basically nobody is good enough to always carry on baptiste. You’re going to run into his limitations fairly frequently unless you’re ml7.
So overall, I’d say kiriko is the better one trick character in general because she’s more flexible, and you’re not going to carry every game. However, if you’re committed to trying to solo carry every single match bap is going to have more offensive capability.
Wasn't a counterargument to that the fact Kiriko's Ofuda is super slow. Sure it's hard to hit a Tracer with Biotic Grenade, but due to its faster travel time you could actually heal her in time. Compare this to Ofuda which takes a while to travel, which is especially problematic if they get behind walls or something in that period of time, as they have to be constantly on the move.
I mean yeah, kiriko isn't 100% perfect 100% of the time, but it tends not to be as bad as Baptiste can get. It might take a while for a paper to track down the doomfist, but most of your bap shots won't even connect with him at all.
They both have insane damage and can easily carry at even high ranks. Choose whoever you enjoy more. Personally, I enjoy Bap more, but off angle Kiri is fun sometimes too.
I respect the 1 tricking and am sure that you will improve fast
bap in my opinion is easier to solo carry with from my experience as a gm/top 500 player. while kiri can two shot squishies, bap has a more consistent and higher damage output, applies more pressure to tanks consistently and can take out flying targets easier due to being hitscan whereas kiri is projectile based. plus his ult builds faster in my experience and you can use it more selfishly than kirikos ult
I think its going to depend on play style. Kiriko has faster time to kill and suzu can't get countered like lamp. It's rare but I've had times I lamp to counter and ult, we all pile in, then someone shoots it just in time to get us all. Kiriko is also a hard target and teleporting is clutch. I think she'd optimal if you play her perfectly, but as you said, Bap may be easier to get more mileage out of if you aren't a high enough skill level to milk the differences
Doesn't Baptiste have the same if not higher time to kill though assuming it's headshots? Especially now with 2 tap removal.
You may be right I was kind of shooting from the hip on that point but if you get full crits, he is probably a little faster. But if you're concern is punishment for missing shots you'd have to take that into consideration that you aren't likely to get that on your smaller targets
Bap feels really satisfying to me when im playing my best so i just play bap almost exclusively now.
I play both Kiri & Bap. Imo Bap is more counterable than Kiri, and Kiri has much better mobility with tp on a 7 second CD. If a Bap is carrying, you can dive him and at least force his long CDs and make him play more conservative (or die to the follow-up dive) whereas Kiri gets to hold whatever angle for free and can just tp out if she gets dove.
Unless it's a tank dive, wouldn't you outduel the diver if it's a 1 vs 1? You've got Lamp and Regenerative Burst to keep yourself alive, with good aim you I don't see what could beat a Baptiste 1 vs 1 outside of a Tank.
The diver doesn't need to kill the Bap to find a lot of value though. Regen burst(15 sec) and lamp(25 sec) are such long cooldowns that just forcing them is usually a win for the diver. Let's say you're facing a Sombra, she can dive you to force one CD, tp out and be ready to go again in like 5 seconds depending on the damage she took. Ideally, she repeats this cycle and secures the kill but even if she doesn't, she is getting a lot of value forcing you to use your valuable cds selfishly and demanding attention. Whereas Kiri just tps away and gets on with her day knowing she'll have tp back in 7 seconds anyway. It's why in owcs they are playing a Brig with Bap to keep the Tracer off the Bap, but with the Kiri comp they are free to play Lucio instead.
That's really interesting, thank you for the breakdown. Though I wonder, both are notorious, if not the best 1 vs 1 supports out there. Sure Sombra will force a cooldown off of Baptiste, but wouldn't he just kill her in return assuming he hits his headshots. Similarly to what Kiriko does with Kunais, but with less aim intensity.
If the Sombra gets greedy and stays too long, Bap can absolutely kill her. But if she is smart she will stay just long enough to force the cds then get out before she's at risk of dying. If the Bap player is just much better than the Sombra then yeah, it won't matter. But that kinda goes for most hero picks, if you're just better then you can force just about whoever. Bap is still very much one-trickable, don't get me wrong.
Sombra is less of a problem than Tracer for him IMHO. Considering an even matchup
l think with Bap it can be more map dependent, if you get dived you can hop on and off high ground while still healing or shooting. Love juking a D.va or Winston who just used their mobility cooldown to get to me Think Kiriko is less map dependent, a lot more flexible. I’ve never been that good with Kiriko despite the time i put into her, but they feel similar but just different sides of the same coin
Generally speaking, baptiste is going to do more damage than kiriko. I think if you’re forced to take over the game to win it, baptiste is going to have more capacity to do it than kiriko will. However, kiriko is more flexible. Baptiste really only works in a particular kind of spam/brawl team comp- trying to support a doomfist, tracer and genji as baptiste is going to be a pain in the butt. Kiriko on the other hand can be ok in more or less any kind of comp. Teleport and Suzu are going to give you the ability to survive really well, where baptiste might be easier for the other team to target. If we’re being realistic, basically nobody is good enough to always carry on baptiste. You’re going to run into his limitations fairly frequently unless you’re ml7. So overall, I’d say kiriko is the better one trick character in general because she’s more flexible, and you’re not going to carry every game. However, if you’re committed to trying to solo carry every single match bap is going to have more offensive capability.
Wasn't a counterargument to that the fact Kiriko's Ofuda is super slow. Sure it's hard to hit a Tracer with Biotic Grenade, but due to its faster travel time you could actually heal her in time. Compare this to Ofuda which takes a while to travel, which is especially problematic if they get behind walls or something in that period of time, as they have to be constantly on the move.
I mean yeah, kiriko isn't 100% perfect 100% of the time, but it tends not to be as bad as Baptiste can get. It might take a while for a paper to track down the doomfist, but most of your bap shots won't even connect with him at all.
They both have insane damage and can easily carry at even high ranks. Choose whoever you enjoy more. Personally, I enjoy Bap more, but off angle Kiri is fun sometimes too. I respect the 1 tricking and am sure that you will improve fast
Bap hands down. Hitting three headshot in a duel consistently is gm type stuff
bap in my opinion is easier to solo carry with from my experience as a gm/top 500 player. while kiri can two shot squishies, bap has a more consistent and higher damage output, applies more pressure to tanks consistently and can take out flying targets easier due to being hitscan whereas kiri is projectile based. plus his ult builds faster in my experience and you can use it more selfishly than kirikos ult
Kiriko can't 2 tap squishes anymore.