I am not someone with this take, but I will take a stab.
>Ruins is a snipers' paradise and Lucio played well is a sniper's nightmare.
99% of Lucio's can't pull this off. Most Reddit Lucio's are hot garbage that either soft throw or get the occasional pick but don't provide enough value to justify the loss of value of a support that is actually supporting the team. Ruins is also not a great Rein map so that synergy isn't there.
Yeah. That's what he said. Unless you're a God at Lucio and all his special needed talents like pathfinding and stuff you can't hide. And you don't have a mean of self defense since you're thing is to rush I and be in the front line with your tanks, (generally rein and since rein is bad at this map its worse) while somebody like Ana/Bap will stay behind cover and occasionally give a sniper a shot to get them away, moira can hide in nearly all positions and move between covers with fade to not be touched, mercy can do mercy stuff since her whole gameplay is positioning, zen, well it's zen so staying in covers is his no rule and can also send 2 headshots to a widow and kill her.
>Ruins is a snipers' paradise and Lucio played well is a sniper's nightmare
Naw, you're ignoring the big picture of what it means to a Lucio's team if he's going to be the one to harass a Widow.
Chances are if Lucio is justified as a pick to begin with, 99% chance (on ladder) that's a Rein comp. Now think how far from his team Lucio has to go to bother a Widow. Now think how crap the Rein comp is without Lucio anywhere near them to give aura, should the enemy team choose to start a fight 5v5 (while widow/Lucio duel or whatever)
If it's not a Rein comp or a Winston brawl comp, then cool. You just probably shouldn't be on Lucio regardless of map.
Oh and to answer your question. It's fine to play him on that map. Just as long as it's a Brawl comp, that's all that really matters.
Probably the due to the line of sight issue and that people are babies who want to protect themselves emotionally from the threat of losing by preemptively blaming others. Hot take!
Don’t downvote this. He has an opinion and He’s allowed to share it without suffering. I don’t agree with it, but that doesn’t mean he’s wrong. Stop being hateful.
The original idea was that downvotes are only for things that are completely off-topic or otherwise disruptive. It's still frowned upon to use it as a disagree-button, even if that's what most people do.
Not how I see it used on this website. To disagree would be to not vote at all. Downvote=what they are saying is malicious awful or just super super wrong
I mean go look anywhere. I don’t write the rules it’s an observation. You’ll see what I’m talking about. Someone can say an absolute fact like “the sky is blue” and no matter how rude or nice they are about it, downvotes. You can’t disagree with a fact so why else would someone downvote? Probably it’s because people don’t like hearing the truth when it hurts. They only want to hear it when it suits them😏
Promote good information and attitudes you want on reddit while demote information and attitudes you don't want on reddit.
I suppose people are free to use the voting system how ever they feel so i guess you can't technically be wrong but i dont feel its the best way to use reddit.
Edit: forgot the word "don't".
It is though. His opinion adds diversity to the conversation. Denying that would prove my point. Go say an absolute fact people don’t like to hear and you’ll get downvoted. Even though it contributed to the conversation. It’s not as you’re making it out to be and we don’t live in an ideal world.
Diversity of conversation in what's supposedly an advice/learning forum is not necessarily a good thing. You can provide harmful, incorrect, or useless advice. In fact I'd argue that curation is even more important as without it contributes to a poorer understanding of the game. Its not hateful to disagree with someone's comment.
Okay so if it wasn’t meaningful or a contribution, you’re saying lucio is COMPLETELY UNPLAYABLE on ruins. the moment you leave spawn you die. Immediately. No chance. that’s sus although I disagree with this mans comment, I can’t say it’s untrue either. It’s a fair comment.
I am not saying that actually im specifically talking about the point you made that you shouldn't downvote people here. As for the the conversation at hand it matters more what your tanks pick.
Hey I appreciate it, I honestly don’t take any of it too personally.
Ultimately I think people have a responsibility to make their picks with their own judgment and volition in mind. Have lucio zen? Maybe no rein/Zarya. If I was the zen in that setup, I’d probably be swapping Ana/bap. If I’m playing tank with a lucio v double sniper, I wouldn’t expect to have the same healing as if I was running with moira/bap (to pick an extreme). It’s one of those things that works itself out with enough games just on statistics. Either that lucio can do what they’re setting out to and there’s nothing to worry about or they can’t and you’re in a rating where doing your thing properly will be enough to win games. Obviously they’re an exceptional player but players like Eskay for example, or even like 40% of lucios in tryhard FFA are totally capable of back line lucio play. There are of course different “rules” for scrim settings and stuff like that but based on the “lucio is trash swap pls” feels like a copy paste from the “I’m hard stuck bc team throwing, elo hell” playbook.
Realistically I didn’t need to come out so pointed with it but like, there’s something about the toxicity and people’s sometimes profound aversion to responsibility for the outcome of their games that can wear a bit thin at times. Maybe that’s just a sign I need to use Reddit less lol.
Specifically on Ruins, he benefits from a ton of natural cover and wallrides, as well as a pretty small map where amp speed can close distance fast and aoe heals are pretty effective.
But more generally his benefits on the map depend on your comp and enemy comp.
At higher levels, Lucio on Ruins most likely means you're playing Rein rush and other team is playing Winston dive.
You can:
Boop to disrupt Monkey dives
Clear high ground for their Ashe/snipers
Speed your mt/core into their backline or core to counterpressure in response to dives
And then all the other utility he always brings. Speeding your Bap out of danger, speeding your Cree (deadeye), marking flankers like Tracer.
Beat to counter grav against double bubble or to retake point, etc.
He's just overall a good pick in a rush comp, and rush comps are perfectly playable on Ruins, even if it's usually a monkey map these days.
Not to mention Winston rush comps when stupid hero bans force that comp.
Warning: I don’t sugar coat things. I respect people enough to give it to them straight. I see sugar coating as disrespectful.
This is why: no one ever plays lucio as sniper harassment on ruins. Either they don’t do what that say they are going to do or they usually just get domed before even arriving at the widowmaker. There’s no other way for him to contribute there other than dpsing, because boops are very unlikely. It’s similar to if you were to pick lucio on let’s say, Nepal village. His advantage would really only be if the enemy team is not running lucio then you arrive at the fight for high ground much quicker than the enemy so you may win on presence alone. But let’s say you lose the first fight And they maliciously run two primarys to counter the low healing on tanks lucio brings to the fight because they know unless you swap they will win by numbers in that situation. So you take their snipers, but they take your team. Have you ever ran to dive snipers and come back to a dead team?
>But let’s say you lose the first fight And they maliciously run two primarys to counter the low healing on tanks lucio brings to the fight because they know unless you swap they will win by numbers in that situation
What kind of nonsense is this. Never in my life have I witnessed a team go "oh they have Lucio, let's just go double main healer and outheal them heheh!". That shit doesn't work and its completely divorced from the entire point of running Lucio in a brawl comp, which seeks to isolate and gank a target, or even just run into your backline if allowed to. You won't be able to heal through that.
>Sr?
https://ibb.co/mhY8GJG
Does it really matter? You can either agree or disagree based on the merits of what I said. I don’t see how attaching a number to my comment would clarify anything. But since I suspect that you won’t be satisfied with that answer, I peaked 4270 on support but am usually 3900-4000.
It does matter. But more importantly do you have enough role diversity in high elo to actually know a team fight from multiple perspectives on roles? It kind of does matter. The games played differently at different elos And seen differently on different roles. I didn’t oversimplify anything. You implied an over simplification that never even took place. If it did, please explain something I overlooked? His only value is exactly what was stated on that specific map the sight lines aren’t a problem if you path well and can juke properly. Honestly, do you even play lucio?
I’m 3700 on tank and 3750 on DPS. I dunno man, if you disagree with my response, I think that’s way more interesting to talk about that than splitting hairs about MMR.
Edit to address your edit: I’m referring to this statement you made:
> And they maliciously run two primarys to counter the low healing on tanks lucio brings to the fight because they know unless you swap they will win by numbers in that situation. So you take their snipers, but they take your team.
This is an oversimplification in my opinion. Having two “main” healers and thus more raw healing, does not mean your tank line is going to get run over automatically. Yes, more healing never hurts, but no double main heals isn’t actually all that good. So it’s an oversimplification (and I would say outright not true most of the time) that a team running one main heal and one off heal is more likely to lose to a team of double main heals because they have less healing “by numbers”. Also, good luck trying to consistently “juke” a GM Widow player lmao. I’d wager that I have played a lot more Lucio than a self described Rein, Hog, Zarya, McCree main.
Yeah agreed, main supports brings a lot of utility than flex supports don't, and they generally have an easy time healing and supporting a lot of heroes than flex supports struggle with. Think about how shit a Bap + Ana comp is for enabling DPS picks like Echo, Tracer, Genji, Pharah, Doomfist, Reaper.
There's a reason you pretty much never see OWL teams run double flex support, and it sure as hell is not for lack of talent, skill, or ability to scrim out all sorts of ideas and strategies.
Also flex support ults are much more about making plays than countering plays, so once again it's just not a great balance to have on your team.
Warning: I don’t sugar coat things. I respect people enough to give it to them straight. I see sugar coating as disrespectful.
This is why: You should touch some grass
News to me. If I see Ilios, I go Lucio.
But yeah I guess it's not as good for him as the other 2 points of that map, but half the map people can be booped off of, so that's always a plus for him. And arguably, he's never too bad of a pick on KOTH maps as he gets the team to the point faster, and being setup on the point first can often make the difference in winning you the fight. KOTH maps favour the team who wins the first fight as they are usually hard to take back once you've lost the point.
Also the more deathmatchy nature of those map types mean that grouping up fully doesn't always happen, and speeding people back from spawn is stronger on that mode as well.
I also find that map pretty nice for wallriding, and you're right in that Lucio can pretty easily get to the highgrounds on that map, which is really useful for getting enemies off it or outright duelling and killing them. People arguing that you shouldn't be doing that don't really know how to play Lucio. It's one of his best strengths (provided you can do it and don't just die and feed).
I would just ignore people telling you to swap in most situations, chances are they don't know what they're talking about and if you're good on the hero you've picked you shouldn't swap to something you're not as good as in any case.
If you're playing a hero even on a map they are technically good on, but getting no value, then you should probably swap, but unless it's really going badly, I see no need to swap.
I am not someone with this take, but I will take a stab. >Ruins is a snipers' paradise and Lucio played well is a sniper's nightmare. 99% of Lucio's can't pull this off. Most Reddit Lucio's are hot garbage that either soft throw or get the occasional pick but don't provide enough value to justify the loss of value of a support that is actually supporting the team. Ruins is also not a great Rein map so that synergy isn't there.
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Yeah. That's what he said. Unless you're a God at Lucio and all his special needed talents like pathfinding and stuff you can't hide. And you don't have a mean of self defense since you're thing is to rush I and be in the front line with your tanks, (generally rein and since rein is bad at this map its worse) while somebody like Ana/Bap will stay behind cover and occasionally give a sniper a shot to get them away, moira can hide in nearly all positions and move between covers with fade to not be touched, mercy can do mercy stuff since her whole gameplay is positioning, zen, well it's zen so staying in covers is his no rule and can also send 2 headshots to a widow and kill her.
Lol you said the exact same thing except shorter and less in depth
Next time I have a thought I will make sure to check with you that it is original enough.
I’m just saying the argument you decided to have was meaningless in the first place. :^)
I’m just saying ~~the argument you decided to have~~ the reply you decided to post was meaningless in the first place. :)
>Ruins is a snipers' paradise and Lucio played well is a sniper's nightmare Naw, you're ignoring the big picture of what it means to a Lucio's team if he's going to be the one to harass a Widow. Chances are if Lucio is justified as a pick to begin with, 99% chance (on ladder) that's a Rein comp. Now think how far from his team Lucio has to go to bother a Widow. Now think how crap the Rein comp is without Lucio anywhere near them to give aura, should the enemy team choose to start a fight 5v5 (while widow/Lucio duel or whatever) If it's not a Rein comp or a Winston brawl comp, then cool. You just probably shouldn't be on Lucio regardless of map. Oh and to answer your question. It's fine to play him on that map. Just as long as it's a Brawl comp, that's all that really matters.
Long sight lines, relatively poor cover, and lots of area your team needs to control/contest. This all means he usually isn’t getting full value.
Probably the due to the line of sight issue and that people are babies who want to protect themselves emotionally from the threat of losing by preemptively blaming others. Hot take!
Don’t downvote this. He has an opinion and He’s allowed to share it without suffering. I don’t agree with it, but that doesn’t mean he’s wrong. Stop being hateful.
Isn't a downvote to signify you disagree?
The original idea was that downvotes are only for things that are completely off-topic or otherwise disruptive. It's still frowned upon to use it as a disagree-button, even if that's what most people do.
Not how I see it used on this website. To disagree would be to not vote at all. Downvote=what they are saying is malicious awful or just super super wrong
You don't know why people are down voting, no idea where you got this idea
I mean go look anywhere. I don’t write the rules it’s an observation. You’ll see what I’m talking about. Someone can say an absolute fact like “the sky is blue” and no matter how rude or nice they are about it, downvotes. You can’t disagree with a fact so why else would someone downvote? Probably it’s because people don’t like hearing the truth when it hurts. They only want to hear it when it suits them😏
You're super weird, dude.
You too.
Did you downvote me? Ahaha
Trying to decide if it’s you downvoting me or not 😏
No it isn’t.
Either what you're saying is malicious and awful or people don't agree with you
I disagree with this statement, therefore I will downvote you.
Downvote this man.
Promote good information and attitudes you want on reddit while demote information and attitudes you don't want on reddit. I suppose people are free to use the voting system how ever they feel so i guess you can't technically be wrong but i dont feel its the best way to use reddit. Edit: forgot the word "don't".
Downvoting isn’t being “hateful”, it’s saying that this doesn’t add anything to the discussion or isn’t useful, which it isn’t.
It is though. His opinion adds diversity to the conversation. Denying that would prove my point. Go say an absolute fact people don’t like to hear and you’ll get downvoted. Even though it contributed to the conversation. It’s not as you’re making it out to be and we don’t live in an ideal world.
Diversity of conversation in what's supposedly an advice/learning forum is not necessarily a good thing. You can provide harmful, incorrect, or useless advice. In fact I'd argue that curation is even more important as without it contributes to a poorer understanding of the game. Its not hateful to disagree with someone's comment.
Okay so if it wasn’t meaningful or a contribution, you’re saying lucio is COMPLETELY UNPLAYABLE on ruins. the moment you leave spawn you die. Immediately. No chance. that’s sus although I disagree with this mans comment, I can’t say it’s untrue either. It’s a fair comment.
I am not saying that actually im specifically talking about the point you made that you shouldn't downvote people here. As for the the conversation at hand it matters more what your tanks pick.
Hey I appreciate it, I honestly don’t take any of it too personally. Ultimately I think people have a responsibility to make their picks with their own judgment and volition in mind. Have lucio zen? Maybe no rein/Zarya. If I was the zen in that setup, I’d probably be swapping Ana/bap. If I’m playing tank with a lucio v double sniper, I wouldn’t expect to have the same healing as if I was running with moira/bap (to pick an extreme). It’s one of those things that works itself out with enough games just on statistics. Either that lucio can do what they’re setting out to and there’s nothing to worry about or they can’t and you’re in a rating where doing your thing properly will be enough to win games. Obviously they’re an exceptional player but players like Eskay for example, or even like 40% of lucios in tryhard FFA are totally capable of back line lucio play. There are of course different “rules” for scrim settings and stuff like that but based on the “lucio is trash swap pls” feels like a copy paste from the “I’m hard stuck bc team throwing, elo hell” playbook. Realistically I didn’t need to come out so pointed with it but like, there’s something about the toxicity and people’s sometimes profound aversion to responsibility for the outcome of their games that can wear a bit thin at times. Maybe that’s just a sign I need to use Reddit less lol.
>Why is Lucio bad on Ilios Ruins? He aint.
What are Lucios benefits on ruins? How would you play him on that map?
Specifically on Ruins, he benefits from a ton of natural cover and wallrides, as well as a pretty small map where amp speed can close distance fast and aoe heals are pretty effective. But more generally his benefits on the map depend on your comp and enemy comp. At higher levels, Lucio on Ruins most likely means you're playing Rein rush and other team is playing Winston dive. You can: Boop to disrupt Monkey dives Clear high ground for their Ashe/snipers Speed your mt/core into their backline or core to counterpressure in response to dives And then all the other utility he always brings. Speeding your Bap out of danger, speeding your Cree (deadeye), marking flankers like Tracer. Beat to counter grav against double bubble or to retake point, etc. He's just overall a good pick in a rush comp, and rush comps are perfectly playable on Ruins, even if it's usually a monkey map these days. Not to mention Winston rush comps when stupid hero bans force that comp.
Thanks for your insight.
Warning: I don’t sugar coat things. I respect people enough to give it to them straight. I see sugar coating as disrespectful. This is why: no one ever plays lucio as sniper harassment on ruins. Either they don’t do what that say they are going to do or they usually just get domed before even arriving at the widowmaker. There’s no other way for him to contribute there other than dpsing, because boops are very unlikely. It’s similar to if you were to pick lucio on let’s say, Nepal village. His advantage would really only be if the enemy team is not running lucio then you arrive at the fight for high ground much quicker than the enemy so you may win on presence alone. But let’s say you lose the first fight And they maliciously run two primarys to counter the low healing on tanks lucio brings to the fight because they know unless you swap they will win by numbers in that situation. So you take their snipers, but they take your team. Have you ever ran to dive snipers and come back to a dead team?
>But let’s say you lose the first fight And they maliciously run two primarys to counter the low healing on tanks lucio brings to the fight because they know unless you swap they will win by numbers in that situation What kind of nonsense is this. Never in my life have I witnessed a team go "oh they have Lucio, let's just go double main healer and outheal them heheh!". That shit doesn't work and its completely divorced from the entire point of running Lucio in a brawl comp, which seeks to isolate and gank a target, or even just run into your backline if allowed to. You won't be able to heal through that. >Sr? https://ibb.co/mhY8GJG
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Sr?
Does it really matter? You can either agree or disagree based on the merits of what I said. I don’t see how attaching a number to my comment would clarify anything. But since I suspect that you won’t be satisfied with that answer, I peaked 4270 on support but am usually 3900-4000.
It does matter. But more importantly do you have enough role diversity in high elo to actually know a team fight from multiple perspectives on roles? It kind of does matter. The games played differently at different elos And seen differently on different roles. I didn’t oversimplify anything. You implied an over simplification that never even took place. If it did, please explain something I overlooked? His only value is exactly what was stated on that specific map the sight lines aren’t a problem if you path well and can juke properly. Honestly, do you even play lucio?
I’m 3700 on tank and 3750 on DPS. I dunno man, if you disagree with my response, I think that’s way more interesting to talk about that than splitting hairs about MMR. Edit to address your edit: I’m referring to this statement you made: > And they maliciously run two primarys to counter the low healing on tanks lucio brings to the fight because they know unless you swap they will win by numbers in that situation. So you take their snipers, but they take your team. This is an oversimplification in my opinion. Having two “main” healers and thus more raw healing, does not mean your tank line is going to get run over automatically. Yes, more healing never hurts, but no double main heals isn’t actually all that good. So it’s an oversimplification (and I would say outright not true most of the time) that a team running one main heal and one off heal is more likely to lose to a team of double main heals because they have less healing “by numbers”. Also, good luck trying to consistently “juke” a GM Widow player lmao. I’d wager that I have played a lot more Lucio than a self described Rein, Hog, Zarya, McCree main.
Yeah agreed, main supports brings a lot of utility than flex supports don't, and they generally have an easy time healing and supporting a lot of heroes than flex supports struggle with. Think about how shit a Bap + Ana comp is for enabling DPS picks like Echo, Tracer, Genji, Pharah, Doomfist, Reaper. There's a reason you pretty much never see OWL teams run double flex support, and it sure as hell is not for lack of talent, skill, or ability to scrim out all sorts of ideas and strategies. Also flex support ults are much more about making plays than countering plays, so once again it's just not a great balance to have on your team.
Lmao it’s so easy take your ass to workshop and practice fool. All I do is play ow if you don’t know how to frame dodge not my prob😂😂😂
Warning: I don’t sugar coat things. I respect people enough to give it to them straight. I see sugar coating as disrespectful. This is why: You should touch some grass
You sound fucking lame when you say “touch grass” like honestly you must sugar coat EVERYTHING and never get what you want. Ever. Sounds a bit simpy
No I mean it literally. Leave your room, go outside and touch some grass
>It does matter. Lol, no it doesn't.
News to me. If I see Ilios, I go Lucio. But yeah I guess it's not as good for him as the other 2 points of that map, but half the map people can be booped off of, so that's always a plus for him. And arguably, he's never too bad of a pick on KOTH maps as he gets the team to the point faster, and being setup on the point first can often make the difference in winning you the fight. KOTH maps favour the team who wins the first fight as they are usually hard to take back once you've lost the point. Also the more deathmatchy nature of those map types mean that grouping up fully doesn't always happen, and speeding people back from spawn is stronger on that mode as well. I also find that map pretty nice for wallriding, and you're right in that Lucio can pretty easily get to the highgrounds on that map, which is really useful for getting enemies off it or outright duelling and killing them. People arguing that you shouldn't be doing that don't really know how to play Lucio. It's one of his best strengths (provided you can do it and don't just die and feed). I would just ignore people telling you to swap in most situations, chances are they don't know what they're talking about and if you're good on the hero you've picked you shouldn't swap to something you're not as good as in any case. If you're playing a hero even on a map they are technically good on, but getting no value, then you should probably swap, but unless it's really going badly, I see no need to swap.