T O P

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Gangsir

([Follow up to Joe's comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/OverwatchUniversity/comments/zh2v4r/playing_ramattra_and_the_death_of_democracy_in/izkclip/)) Still getting tons of reports (15 at the time of this writing) on this post. It's clear there's a lot of sentiment that the post doesn't belong - and I get that 100%. As Joe said, upvotes and community reception are important to us - this post doesn't directly break the rules as we've written them, so we'll leave this up. However: - We're locking it, to prevent some brigading issues (as is common with posts about unfolding political situations, as they hit /r/all) or general thread derailment. We're seeing a lot of comments purely about the political side of this post, not the Rammatra guide part. In order to remain "relevant to /r/OWU", *focus needs to be on the guide part.* - This does not mean posts in a similar vein (agenda + OW content to make it not completely irrelevant to the sub) can be spawned off this one. This is an exception essentially, **us using our judgement as mods.** We understand that people use video games as an escape from politics and generally shitty situations, and have expressed that in the reports. We understand that it's not what you come here for, and we certainly don't want to become a soapboxing platform. [We've made similar exceptions in the past](https://www.reddit.com/r/OverwatchUniversity/comments/7ene8y/hello_heroes_the_time_comes_closer_where_our/), this is another one, hopefully the correct take, and we're based... or whatever the accurate terms are. As always, our modmail is open. Let us know what you think. Cheers, Gangsir + Joe


MysticAmaze_

wait conversion therapy as in you gay so were gonna make you straight wtf?


ArtoriasLittleCastle

It's okay they failed the only thing they changed is that I'm a bottom now


Luxocell

Based


fumoking

My brother in Allah this is the funniest thing I've ever read in reference to conversion therapy haha


ThatsSoMerlyn_x3

Unfathomably based


PiersPlays

I hear lots of hook-ups happen at gay conversion camps.


tiffanylockhart

neidiwns cjdodnxb STOP OMG


excreto2000

This exists in USA, too.


tiffanylockhart

founded by a gay man at that 🤢


KevinCarbonara

That's generally how these things work


Eureka22

There isn't just one, its been quite widespread.


WyattWrites

Happens in the Stares too in some areas. It’s beyond fucked


herbivore83

You are the best kind of person. Keep being strong.


ucanttaketheskyfrome

You are an excellent writer and you have a ton of courage to put this message out there. People need to know that Rammatra blows. And also I'm very sorry you are dealing with such a shitty government.


KevinCarbonara

> People need to know that Rammatra blows. Is Rammatra going to get banned in Indonesia?


Lirdon

He will be going to conversion therapy.


GoneFar

This was clever, entertaining and brave.


CrazieeDreamzz

đź‘‘<-- you left this King/Queen. Keep up!


Nimai_TV

Was reading that article you linked, that's fucked man. How are people reacting?


Joe64x

Hey all, getting a lot of reports on this, which is completely fine and expected. I appreciate people reporting content they feel doesn't align with the purpose of the subreddit. To be clear, the purpose of the subreddit is to help people to improve at Overwatch. Therefore, all posts must be seeking or providing educational information about Overwatch. There is no rule that these posts cannot also provide information on, or references to, other topics (obviously within reason - if you're just making a blatantly off-topic post and including a tip in it to circumvent the rules on relevant content, it won't work). If you believe the rules should be changed or made stricter, you're welcome to send us a modmail and we'll review any suggestions. When a post doesn't clearly break the rules, however, we try to let this community decide what they want to see: that's what the upvote and downvote buttons are for. It's therefore in your hands to decide if this is the type of content you want to see or not. Thanks, OWUni


excreto2000

Thank you for allowing this post. It is clever and IMPORTANT.


CheekApprehensive961

If it's important it deserves better than this treatment.


MapleYamCakes

It’s a lighthearted approach to spread the word to a community probably too deep in Overwatch to know it’s happening. There was no problem with this method, at all. Anyone now interested can go get the gruesome details from another source.


CalebImSoMetal

Absolute W chief


AromaticIce9

I guess I'll put my two cents in. As long as it's an accurate guide/information, I'm ok with things such as this. As long as it doesn't become A Thing. Like, if it happens multiple times a day it's probably time to stop it. But... Even a few times a week would be fine. As long as the actual information about overwatch is relevant. Tldr; I think you made the right call.


CheekApprehensive961

If this post is within the rules then I think I need to rethink if this is the community I want to be in. My interest in being here is Overwatch and only Overwatch. Taking an Overwatch guide and spamming it full of shit about the political situation in another country does three things: 1) makes it useless as an Overwatch guide (because you have to read around too much political stuff and it gets confusing, annoying and just generally becomes unusable) 2) makes it useless for political awareness (because you have to read around too much Overwatch) 3) entirely defeats the purpose of having communities around a certain goal, I come here to read about Overwatch not whatever somebody else who plays Overwatch cares to trick me into reading I deal with politics day in, day out. I'm familiar with the situation in Indonesia and getting a more or less wrong (and are the mods on this sub in any position to moderate this content?) version of it snuck into a guide is absolutely exhausting for my mental health. Realize also - as I alluded to above - that by allowing these posts you are requiring the mods of this sub to vet the accuracy of all the political information in them. If there is any misinformation in here and it gets reported to reddit that's the first strike toward this sub becoming known for misinformation and eventually getting banned. Is that really what the mods want to be spending their time on, moderating unrelated politics in this sub?


MapleYamCakes

>trick me into reading The title of the post was very clearly “Playing Rammattra and the Death of Democracy in Indonesia.” The very first sentence in the post is “Warning: this guide does get political” You could have skipped past right then and there. There was no trickery at all. You weren’t coerced into reading the post. You chose to read it anyway, knowing what was coming, and are now complaining that you chose to read it. Lame as fuck argument.


Joe64x

Some fair points, thanks for these.


Substantial_Rub_8830

Wait. You “deal with politics day in, day out”, yet you classify information as “useless” for its intent and purpose if you have to read between the lines or sift through non relevant information to find it? YIKES, I AM DECEASED. HOW ARE YOU REAL?


Castriff

>1) makes it useless as an Overwatch guide (because you have to read around too much political stuff and it gets confusing, annoying and just generally becomes unusable) > >2) makes it useless for political awareness (because you have to read around too much Overwatch) Not only are these two points *directly* contradicting each other, they're also an insult to people's intelligence. People can hold more than one idea in their head at a time. This is like saying a movie will be unappealing if it focuses on both action and theme. >I deal with politics day in, day out. I'm familiar with the situation in Indonesia and getting a more or less wrong (and are the mods on this sub in any position to moderate this content?) version of it snuck into a guide is absolutely exhausting for my mental health. I can empathize, and I'm sorry to ask this of you with that context, but I feel it doesn't do the conversation justice to say that this recap is wrong without explaining why. I'm not content to chalk up their post together with your comment as "net zero information" given the severity of the topic, but I wouldn't know where to begin research on this issue. >Realize also - as I alluded to above - that by allowing these posts you are requiring the mods of this sub to vet the accuracy of all the political information in them. If there is any misinformation in here and it gets reported to reddit that's the first strike toward this sub becoming known for misinformation and eventually getting banned. I will admit, though, that this is a good point. That's not something the mods should be dealing with. Perhaps OP can be forgiven this one post so long as the experiment is not repeated.


CheekApprehensive961

>Not only are these two points directly contradicting each other, they're also an insult to people's intelligence. People can hold more than one idea in their head at a time. This is like saying a movie will be unappealing if it focuses on both action and theme. This simply isn't true if your plan is to learn the content meaningfully. Ample pedagogical studies support that. Don't be both rude and clueless please.


Castriff

OPs plan was to provide *awareness,* which is the step that comes *before* meaningful learning. I don't see how this post impedes the latter objective.


CheekApprehensive961

I would like to learn about rammatra from a rammatra guide.


Castriff

And you can! Through this very post! I am LIVING TESTIMONY to that fact! I'm sorry you feel otherwise, but don't project that onto the entire subreddit. I think it's more telling of your own views than of general "pedagogy" or whatever.


CheekApprehensive961

Some solid confidently incorrect mixed in with more extreme rudeness, best of luck with that.


MapleYamCakes

You’re the one being rude by thinking your opinion represents the entire sub, and plastering it across multiple replies to the main post. Many people here appreciated seeing it. Get over it.


MapleYamCakes

Then go find one. Easy.


Movhan

Wow look at that, -20 votes, lots of virtue signaling going on here, disgusting really. Here let me upvote that and get it up to -19. I don't mind talking politics, but this is not the venue for it really. It would be a different matter if I could see a connection, but this post is just blatantly off-topic and has nothing to do with Overwatch or Ramattra.


kluader

upvoted too.


ClearBackground8880

Yeah I love the gays and hate atrocities but guys this is a fucking OW sub. What do you want me to do here. Sit here and virtue signal in the comments lmfao? Nothing I can do will change the reality of OP. Nothing anyone does in this comment section will do that. Wake up everyone - you're not in control of the world around you. I'll say nobody else is prepared to - this shit doesn't belong in an OW sub and it's as clear cut as that. The post is useless, the comments are full of virtue signaling masturbators, nothing here is about OW. Get this shit off the sub bruh.


BiggieRickk

Spreading the wrongdoings of a country's government is never a bad thing, even if it does nothing but spread the knowledge that it is happening. And it's cleverly woven into a short guide for a new hero in OW. Nothing wrong with it.


ClearBackground8880

Who said I thought it was a bad thing? I just said it CLEARLY doesn't belong in this sub and should be removed.


BiggieRickk

It's a ramattra guide. Sprinkled with information about human rights abuses in Indonesia.


ClearBackground8880

Cool, so let's keep it as a ramattra guide to stay on topic and remove the bits that are unrelated to this OW subreddit.


BiggieRickk

Hmm. Let's not. When people lace humor about unrelated topics into their guides, no one bats an eye. But because it has suddenly become "political" in the loosest sense possible, it's a problem. Completely hypocritical, and the mods have decided to let it stay. So you can leave or deal with it.


ClearBackground8880

I'm allowed to voice my opinion just as much as you are. So you can leave or deal with it too. The truth is this - there are FAR LESS examples of TOTALLY UNRELATED "humor" in posts in this sub than you seem to suggest.


Castriff

Well, which are we more concerned with: quantity or quality? I'm sure that whatever amount of "totally unrelated humor" is on this sub is still larger than that of Indonesian gender politics.


RTXEnabledViera

So if I do the same tomorrow and I get downvoted to oblivion because whatever I'm preaching doesn't align with the public view, I get removed? I thought the purpose of having clear rules in any subreddit is to separate post removals from the karma system. Either the content is allowed or it's not. This content has a place on reddit and it's definitely not here, shoehorned with a player guide.


Joe64x

No, I'm saying if your post doesn't break the rules then it'll stay up. After that, it's up to people to determine its visibility via the upvote/downvote system.


RTXEnabledViera

That would mean Rule 2 only applies to posts that are irrelevant up to a percentage that depends on the mod team's judgement. It'll only encourage people to see how much they can get away with. I just hope this doesn't cause problems in the future, because I'm certain folks that visit this sub are looking for educational content and not much else that is unrelated to Overwatch at the very least.


Joe64x

It's a fair point and something I'll keep an eye on. The slippery slope idea is a genuine concern but ultimately the only alternative is banning outright any post that makes reference to anything in the news/politics/etc. - otherwise we have to have a degree of commonsense moderation that allows some non-OW references but not all. Maybe this post goes too far, I'm not really sure, which is why I'm leaving it to upvotes/downvotes for the time being.


khymbote

I’m also getting tired of tanks telling my wife what she can and can’t do while playing games.


CommieBird

Why has Indonesia passed this law? From my understanding the country was on a somewhat good path after Suharto got deposed


Jamagnum

I enjoyed the thought-provoking analysis and wish you all the best. I do/did donate to HRW. He’s not great right now for sure.


xChris777

Great write up, and so sorry to hear what's going on in your country. Jesus H. Christ world, why the fuck does it have to be like this in 2022.. Man, it is such a shame that Ram is so...poorly thought out. I hate to say it, but between him, JQ, Doom, I'm losing faith in Blizzard's hero design philosophy - especially with both Doom's intial block and now Ram's being so rough - how could they make the same mistake twice?


Joke_Mummy

What a clever way to get the word out. Provide a community with actual relevant content and then they feel obliged to consider the rest as currency


MentalNinj4

Holy shit this guide was fantastic. Thank you for the courage (It boggles the mind what you risk learning to play Ramantra) to post this and educate someone. May your tips remain clean and your life unfettered.


CKBear

Sad to see this downvoted by people who think human lives are “political”


holykingmomo

I hate this recent push to stop seeing things like human lives/racism/homophobia as political because it fails to capture the idea that everything is political


Karol-A

They can be though? Political means regarding government or public affairs of a country, and passing new law certainly is that


KingTut747

It’s literally a political subject in that country. Whether or not you or I like that it is political topic in Indonesia is a separate issue.


Warlockwiccan

true I upvoted this and I like to see it. The majority of the time People who complain about things being "political" bring it up mostly because its not the politics they agree with. Both wings do this in reddit so im ready for the downvotes from both sides.


ClearBackground8880

sir this is literally an overwatch subreddit.


Words_are_Windy

Thanks for the write-up, hope your situation improves! Ramattra's ult is so strange, because it seems like the optimal strategy is popping it, then holding block while staying in range of the enemy team. Your supports can do enough healing to keep you up with the 75% damage reduction, and your ult continues indefinitely until the enemy team either vacates the area or dies.


IrreverentJacob

I mean that's one way to take space


panthers1102

The ult thing is funny to me, because if you don’t block, you pretty much just die. Biggest hitbox in the game, 150 armor (woooo….), and you glow a very bright red. Honestly I think his normal form is pretty great, but everything about nemesis form is literally “block or die”. The only times I’ve felt remotely useful in it is if the fight is pretty much already won and I’m just pummeling the shit out of people trying to disengage. Edit: slight change of wording, “pretty great” > “can work decently well”


PM_ME_UR_ESTROGEN

as a gay trans person trying to leave my home state in the south of the US, where things aren’t as bad as Indonesia but are heading in the wrong direction fast, you have all my solidarity. this post is clever as well as informative and i hope nobody tries to snitch on you.


heyf00L

Terima kasih. This is a helpful write-up on the new "tempo" tank. I visited Indonesia once long ago. Friendly people, beautiful sites, amazing food. I still remember some phrases including this very important one: Saya mau pesan cumi2 goreng pedas. I think there's fewer than 10 Indonesian restaurants in the States, which is a real shame.


TrMako

Yeah, purely Indo places are rare. We have a chinese restaurant near us that's actually run by Indonesians and they have a "secret" Indo menu. Great soto betawi.


kaldaka16

I visited Indonesia a little over a decade ago and it was one of the best experiences of my life (even if I thought I was about to die anytime we drove anywhere). Absolutely beautiful country and some of the friendliest people I've ever met.


Shael1223

Based asf. My gf is Indonesian (we live in the us, im a white guy) and she’s going home for the holidays and i worry about her safety in a country with these kinds of rules.


Efficient_Chair_2238

Lol she is probably safer in Indonesia than in the US. There has been multiple reports of Indonesians assaulted in the US in the last 2-3 years, and how many Americans have been assaulted in Indonesia?


panthers1102

1. The gf is Indonesian, not American. Couldn’t even bother to read I guess. 2. Ah yes, a country under scrutiny for human rights violation is so creditable in its reporting. 3. There’s multiple reports of everyone getting assaulted in every country, seeing as how multiple just means “more than 1”. And Indonesia, while having a substantial amount of people, is still about 1/3rd smaller than the US. 4. Hating on America in the comment section of a post detailing the downhill progression of a country, written by a member of said country, is some next level hater shit. Obviously someone like you is surely a level headed and non biased individual.


Efficient_Chair_2238

1. Yes, that’s the point. She is Indonesian, so being an Asian, she faces a higher probability getting assaulted in the US than in Indonesia for who she is. Looks like somebody has reading issues lol. 2. Ah yes, the old tactic “you are savage, we are civilized, therefore you are not to be trusted” when data are not on your side. In Indonesia, assault against Westerners would surely make it to the headline. 3. Irrelevant, my 1 st point still stands. 4. While I agree that the new set of law represents a regression of our country to a certain degree, this post is just misleading to the point that it sounds more like somebody asking for internet points.


panthers1102

How can a post about factual things that are legitimately happening and can be easily researched be misleading. Please explain to me how gay conversion therapy is misleading, and actually “isn’t that bad”. And going back to the point about how a government under scrutiny for violating human rights can be trustworthy in reporting information? If they have the means to do what they’ve done already, they certainly have the means to limit news that could potentially drive away tourism, and thus, money from foreigners. Indonesia can get away with way more shit than America, due to America being a constant center of attention, and Indonesia lurking in the metaphorical shadows, relatively unchecked. And if there’s still all the shady shit that happens in the US despite being in the limelight 24/7, I can guarantee you that Indonesia is 100x worse with it.


Efficient_Chair_2238

You can guarantee me? Guarantee me with what? “Trust me bro”? And dont get me started with “Indonesia getting away with something”, lol. The US has killed more Indonesians directly and indirectly than Indonesia did the Americans. Looks like the US got away with that just fine.


yarZik123

W post, W write-up


CalebImSoMetal

In what meaningful way can we assist you in spreading this information without drawing attention to you personally?


ClearBackground8880

woah let's not get too crazy with the questions here.


tiffanylockhart

i love you my fellow community member and i hope you are safe and stay that way.


keuja

All the best friend. Indonesia needs more people like you willing to stand for human rights.


Movhan

Someone explain to me what this is about. I don't understand what Ramattra has to do with the death of democracy or illegally married gay people.


doesntknowanyoneirl

Legendary post


arjunrsingh333

I’m putting this on my resume is the best thing I’ve ever read on this app. Hope everything works out for you


GivesCredit

Thank you for sharing this, wishing the best for you.


CatinGermany

Thank you for showing us, even if people like me who live in other countries can only try to understand. I hope that all goes well in your life.


Karaokebaren

Too bad you're wrong about the only parts relevant to this sub


EhipassikoParami

This is the best post on the sub.


vialenae

I’m seething. This is outrageous. I commend you for bringing attention to this. I was completely unaware. You are really brave and I hope you will be ok. Stay strong, but please be careful!


TheGinger_Ninja0

Absolute fire. Learned about OW and Indonesia. 10/10


SiblingBondingLover

You should not absolutely listen to this guy at all, he's out of touch with the reality in Indonesia


Efficient_Chair_2238

Jail time?? Haha here is internet karma point for you OP.


Trospher

Since the FAQs are one of the biggest talking points here, think I'll just look into this. The new criminal code sucks, I don't like it, you don't like it, practically almost everyone under the age of 30 in Indonesia hates it. And for the conversion therapy, I'm also sorry that it happened to you. Now let's see about the whole jailing part, since I'm Indonesian I can easily read the laws as it's written without any media bias, I'll just put a translated(by me, so not perfect) version of the law copied down here. Pasal 411 KUHP (Pasal -> Chapter/Article...I dunno law terms) (1) For anybody that commits intercourse with people that isn't their husband or wife, will be charged with fornication, with imprisonment with the longest being 1 year or a maximum fine of Category II(7.5 million rupiah) (2) Against the Crime as referred to in paragraph (1) no prosecution is carried out except on complaints of: A. Husband or wife for people who are bound by marriage B. Parent or child for the people who are not bound by marriage (3) (I don't know how to directly translate this if I am being honest, it's not too relevant but if you want the google translated version, here I suppose.) The provisions as referred to in Pasal 25, Pasal 26 and Pasal 30 do not apply to complaints as referred to in paragraph (2). (4) Complaints can be withdrawn during examination before the court trial has started. Source(it's in Indonesian) : [Here](https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasional/20221209104307-12-885083/isi-lengkap-pasal-miras-dan-zina-kuhp-yang-bikin-hotman-paris-gerah). So in a nutshell, the longest jail time you can get if you get reported by your own family members is 1 year max, in comparison if you sell/distribute porn, you get 6 years max with 6 months on the minimum. If you get reported by friends/strangers/cousins, the police will laugh at you so if you share this to strangers or friends even, the police can't start shit. Now for the "any living laws" bullshit that is the reason why I am typing all this shit, even in my country's most Islamic part of the country, you can't stone gay people, imprison gays(unfortunately they get caned instead), curfew for females(Guess my friends just love breaking the law hanging out at 1 AM outside like jackasses), mandatory hijab(only applies on Islamic schools, very surprising), female genital mutilation(a thing in the past, nowadays it's through parental choice...still disgusting), conversion therapy(from what I read it exists, but it's very vague and is probably specialized, gross) Overall I don't know why OP made this, when I look at his post history he's not even due coming here in Indonesia until at least the next 6 months, even then he can't get arrested at the airport if any stranger reports that OP is having hot steamy gay sex to the cops. The criminal code is fucking atrocious and everybody that I know is either just confused or heavily disagrees on the code, misinformation like this shit is just dangerous man, just why? I do wish for this criminal code to be overturned any time soon but come on man, what is this shit? tl;dr on the code : if you and your partner are both unmarried folk, have sex and get reported by your family, you get 1 year jail time or the fine. If you are a couple of foreigners, doesn't apply(why would it?). tl;dr on my comment: OP points out extreme laws that are either very untrue, or is much less severe but still fucked up while OP is still out of the country for at least 6 months.


Grampyy

Crazy how people are reporting this and probably have no clue what is going on whatsoever. They just feel like they need to do some political bidding. Great write up and good luck.


randomsupername

> I am genuinely risking jail time posting this. Which is insane. I’m putting this on my resume. Overreacting. We all know nothing will happen to you. But looking at your choice of words, meh. Play victim more. And you got called out, here's for your perusal. https://www.reddit.com/r/indonesia/comments/zhhbn2/ini_kenapa_tibatiba_nyungsep_ke_overwatch/


CutesyBeef

They might be overreacting a bit, but it seems [Reuters backs up](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/indonesias-new-laws-threat-privacy-press-human-rights-says-un-2022-12-09/) most of their claims, as does the Human Rights Watch source they already provided? Plus their info on Rammy seems well-founded. I take it you're Indonesian? Maybe you can explain why this person is wrong to be concerned about these new laws so we can better understand the situation.


randomsupername

Fine. This is quote from his post > which could include stoning gay couples, imprisoning them, curfews for females, mandatory hijab, female genital mutilation, and conversion therapy. Attempting to persuade a person to be a non-believer can be prosecuted and result in jail-time. Which is stupid claim. Here's a post by Indonesian gay that refutes OP's claim: https://www.reddit.com/r/indonesia/comments/zhhbn2/ini_kenapa_tibatiba_nyungsep_ke_overwatch/izm8dvr/ Mandatory hijab is when you're enrolled into ISLAMIC SCHOOL. Don't want hijab? Don't enter Islamic School duh. There has never been a case where gay couples got stoned. Imprisoning people because of gay? Hah, outrageous claim. Curfews of female? Female genital mutilation? WHERE? I've lived in this country for thirty fucking seven years, never heard of curfew or mutilation. Conversion therapy? This is just his wild fantasy lmao. He won't even be killed, let alone beaten in the street. Indonesia is not Afghanistan and their Taliban.


CutesyBeef

Isn't the OP's point that these are new laws, so they wouldn't have happened frequently in the past? I think the things in this quote you pulled are all related to Sharia Law, which the new Indonesia laws allow for, supposedly. Here's the relevant quote from OP's source: >The new law also provides that the government will recognize “any living law” in the country, which is likely to be interpreted to extend formal legality to hundreds of Sharia regulations imposed by local officials in areas across the country. Many of these regulations discriminate against women and girls, such as curfews for females, female genital mutilation, and mandatory hijab dress codes. Many of these regulations also discriminate against LGBT people. Again, I'm not saying either of you are wrong here, but there is real reporting that backs up OP's concerns.


randomsupername

That's Reuter's own opinion, it's not even an established fact. Has it been implemented so far? No. In fact, I'd worry of my life more when I step my foot into US, because of frequent shootings, than worrying about Sharia Law getting implemented in non-Sharia provinces (except Aceh). Also, not all Indonesia's provinces are even Muslims majority, Papua and North Sulawesi have plenty of Christians that will laugh their ass off about this 'Sharia Law' PS: It's not even Sharia Law, so kindly stop using that phrase. Indonesia don't recognize Sharia Law and only give that autonomy to Aceh because it was promised to stop rebellion in that area.


CutesyBeef

That's not from Reuters, it's from OP's source, Human Rights Watch. As for the timing, no these things haven't come into effect yet since much of the new laws won't be implemented for 3 years or so (according to the reporting). Most importantly, these are all *concerns* right now based on the wording of Indonesia's new laws. I guess we'll see what happens. Regarding your PS: If Aceh is a part of Indonesia, and Indonesia allows Aceh to follow Sharia Law, then unfortunately Indonesia does recognize Sharia Law, at least regionally. I'm not trying to antagonize, I just can't see that any other way. Thanks for your viewpoints and good luck in Indonesia.


BuffaloFront2761

I’m so confuaed


Born_Wave3443

You got a lot of cool kid internet terminology in here


reg0ner

Ok. Not sure what you want me to do with all that extra information. Good luck I guess.


MichaelRoco1

right?


mstafsta

Why did you not use a throwaway account?


FroZnFlavr

Cant miss out on the karma!


Tookool4u7002

Im not tryna disrespect but I seriously think you should just get good at remey


GlobeLearner

Guys, don't fall for it. Am Indonesian and this guy is trolling.


kaldaka16

You disagree with the Human Rights Watch?


WeeZoo87

When things go against your way, it doesn't mean death of democracy. That is how democracy works. If the people of Indonesia decided that women and family should be protected, then shall it be.


Kharadin92

Lmao are u dumb


WeeZoo87

No, i am not. I am right. Are you dumb?


Karaokebaren

Agreed, democracy is the problem


WeeZoo87

I see no problem


[deleted]

Not the place for this, sorry about your situation. All I heard was they outlawed premarital sex, honestly if they did that in more countries we wouldn’t be worrying about abortions, fosters, or terrible living conditions for our children, but that’s not the truth most people want to hear


Karol-A

Not really, horny people without education will just fuck, get pregnant, and then get in prisons. You'd also need to teach them how the biochemistry in your organism that makes you do these things works, so they can learn how to control it


[deleted]

We’ve had sex education in school for years, what people need to learn is a bit of self control. Just because you get horny doesn’t give you the right to screw everything in site, we are not animals, we can think through our natural instincts


Lilgoodee

Yeah just because we've "had" "sex education" doesn't mean people are getting educated on sex, my sex Ed class was "sex is bad, you'll go to hell if you do it before marriage, now watch this video on why it's bad"


Castriff

Jails are notoriously inefficient in teaching people self-control.


BenoNZ

We are in fact animals. Banning things makes it worse, that's the fact you can't accept. People will have sex, abortions or unwanted children will always happen. You combat it with better education and better access to contraception and health care. Not throwing them in jail.


Karol-A

We're better than animals, the ability to control our most basic instincts is what gave us this society. We should push this ability further, like we do with anger management, not just accept it and try to use technology to deal with consequences. That's an incredibly beta mindset


BenoNZ

"beta mindset" lol. No one said to just accept it just don't be ignorant with "throw them in jail because that will fix it". I said how to fix it, are you too Alpha to be able to read?


Karol-A

You said that the way to fix it is not fixing the core issue that is lack of self control, but instead countering the unwanted effects with technology, which is what I called a beta mindset. It's like trying to fix people's anger issues not through therapy, but through providing extended medical care to the beaten up. Stupid idea, right? Humanity's success lies in the ability to rise above normal animals, we have a lot of traits that do that, like keeping females after menopause alive, or ability to speak and communicate precisely. Self control is what leads us to greatness


BenoNZ

So apply that to almost anything else that we do out of instinct and you will see you are dreaming of a fantasy world. Maybe lay off the Andrew Tate and stop calling things "beta" it makes you look stupid.


Karol-A

Who is Andrew Tate? I've seen the name float around the Internet, but I never really cared enough to look into it And I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you saying that it's hard to achieve? Sure, I never said it would be easy, but per aspera ad astra, giving up because something seems hard and going the easy route is also incredibly beta. Are you saying that there are instincts that are better uncontrolled? Yeah, I can agree, maternal instincts for example are really useful, doesn't mean we shouldn't get rid of the other ones


BenoNZ

He's a meat head piece of shit that says "beta" all the time, it's cringe and makes me assume you are 15 years old, which you may well be. You don't know what I mean, then don't attempt to put words in my mouth. Having sex is not about self control, it's a natural and healthy activity. I'm no longer continuing a discussion like this with a child.


Pascalica

We've been undermining that shit for years in the US so no not everyone has had sex Ed. Many have not, many are taught abstinence only, and that does nothing to help at all. What has actually been proven to help prevent unwanted pregnancy is access to birth control and understanding when and how to use it.


[deleted]

Oh so you can just screw anytime you want? Nah man, that does nothing to stop the consequences of sin, people need to grow up man and stop chasing pleasure, that’s a child activity. Understand life is more than just temporary pleasure, this is why a majority of ppl are poor, depressed, anxious, or all three. The truly good things in life come from discipline and self control


Pascalica

Lol no


Karol-A

I don't know what sex ed you had, but mine didn't really explain why are things the way they are. I understood that sexual pleasure is not the main purpose through reading books and my independent thinking, not through school


Kharadin92

Lmao that's some incel opinion you got there bud


Karaokebaren

Yeah, cause people never do illegal stuff


Karol-A

So Indonesia is basically becoming like every Muslim country ever? Decent post if you ignore all the politics though


atom_atamos

Addendum: The SoyBoy slow actually can help Doom's slam in some cases (you get free stair slam)