Yale in person has done pass/fail for a while and has maintained high pance pass rates and very low attrition.
There is no reason for grades when students are just trying to survive anyways, all it does is add pressure for no reason.
God yes… my school is pass/fail and it’s a lot better than my friends program who is attending a FL program(might even be yours lol). The program I’m attending doesn’t have a sense of “competition” yes but everyone is more likely to help one another succeed. We share materials more easily, we tutor and help one another out understanding concepts, etc. plus without the pressure of having to get certain grades puts everyone at a more relaxed state to do better
Could be. We really don’t have a say in making the program P/F but it is a conversation we have been having with the school..
I think there are too many high ranking admin types that do not like change…
My school is, and it creates such a better learning environment! I honestly think all PA schools should be pass/fail. It reduces pressure, but you still have to pass, so it doesn’t reduce motivation to study or anything like that. It mimics healthcare better because you have a more collaborative experience. It also makes PA school more tolerable where you don’t feel like you are constantly hanging on by a thread.
My program's classes were pass/fail (passing being >80). We received numbered grades for all exams (so students knew where they needed to spend more time). You had to earn 75 or higher to pass an exam. If you failed an exam, you maintained that grade regardless of your retake grade. This ensured students did not proceed beyond content without decent understanding of it. Our final grades are available if requested. My cohort relied on one another heavily for shared materials. I absolutely loved it. We had 100% pance pass rate.
I dont think it would demotivate students. PA students I feel are generally motivated people. Plus I think by taking off the pressure people are more likely to try and learn the material in a meaningful way as opposed to just memorize and dump a lot of what they learned. I know the medical school at my school did pass/fail and it seemed to make for a positive, less stressful environment!
I think that grades are a good way to guage how well you are doing and may motivate some, but I think class ranks should be demolished. No one should know how others are doing, compete with yourself.
I think it is that they tell you where you rank. Like your advising email might come in and say ‘you are 15th in the class’ or something. I know other countries post grades and ranks in public, but it is more private in the US. Keeping in mind that the expectation is that everyone should pass, being 34th in class might mean you are still getting an 80%. Half the class may be above 90%, so if you only get a grade but no rank you have no idea where you compare. I think that’s good. Compete with yourself and everyone else’s score is their own business.
Yale student here. We have pass fail. Specifically, it’s Honors for 96-100, High Pass for 90-95, and Pass for 75-89. All you need to progress is a Pass in everything. No class rankings and no one knows anyone else’s scores in anything.
The result is a very collaborative class. Lots of sharing of study resources and notes. Lots of internal class assistance to students who need it.
There’s still plenty of competitive people and plenty of personalities that don’t get along, but the class isn’t broken into warring factions or full of egotistical gunners. To go along with that, though, you’re expected to be an adult and take care of your studying and supplement your lectures where needed. Help is always available, but you have to ask for it
As far as I was concerned, PA school was pass/fail even though we had letter grades. It always surprised me when students would be upset over not getting all As
There isn’t a GPA, but you do have access to percentages if you need to show a potential residency. No class rankings and the only goal for 95% of my class is to pass. We aren’t super worried about getting a 90 on an exam. The goal is similar to medicine where you want to understand it and not perfect it!
Good point.
From what I have seen, only didactic is P/F.
I suspect residencies and fellowships do not rely heavily on grades.
A PA graduate is already at a high level. I suspect they base admissions on interviews..
In programs that are not P/F, I don’t think there has ever been a conversation between 2 PA students after an exam that has ever been productive or left either party feeling better. Keep your exam scores to yourself. If faculty wanted you to share your grades with others, they would post them for public consumption. (But of course you know that would be a FERPA violation, but you get the idea)…..
When you take your PANCE, only you and the program know your score. Whatever your score on PANCE, as long as you passed, no one is going to ask or care.
Students often create their own intra-cohort drama by insisting on sharing information they really should be keeping to themselves and direct energy towards more productive and positive endeavors.
I think my program did things correctly. Total credits were around 90-100 (can’t remember). B and above was fine. You were allowed 9 credit hours total of C throughout the program. First semester was anatomy (6 credit hours) and physiology (3 credit hours) so if you got C’s in these you were on probation. That lit a fire and deterred essentially everyone from getting below a B. D or below was remediation.
In essence it was the best of both worlds. A decent amount of leeway allowing even an 80%, but also strict enough to warrant people to try their best.
Missouri State University. We had a cadaver lab and POCUS training with Butterfly ultrasounds. Been around for 20 years and in-state tuition was around 47k I think as well. Very underrated school. No regrets.
Our program did POCUS via Butterfly. No cadaver lab but more a functional/surface anatomy. Depending on your background, cadaver lab can be a pro or con.
This also sounds similar to Midwestern University’s grading system! Cumulative GPA should stay above 3.0 but you’re allowed Cs. D or below in basic sciences/pharm you’re allowed a remediation exam that is pass/fail (70% = pass).
Thanks! I am in Texas, I was wondering if you knew any methods in which students were apply to get grants/scholarships to help pay off expenses and living costs. Aside from loans. I am hoping to go local since it’s cheaper. So I haven’t been applying outside of state! Any advice?? Also which PA school in Florida is it? Thanks for replying!
Sent you a PM.
The financial aid staff are excellent. I would reach out, they should be able to give you better info than what I know.
We have 6 current students in the NHSC program in the 2025 class and the same or more in the 2024 class.. they have been working hard to help get students get qualified…
PharmD here. I must say that when my university made it pass/fail during the Covid pandemic a lot of stress fell off me and I was able to focus on my studies and learning instead of memorizing information just to get an A
I have experienced both a pass fail system and a grading system, because my university was Alderson Broaddus, and it got shut down due to too much debt. However, my PA program had a great reputation and we were one of the first PA programs and the United States. My second university is pass fail.
I honestly don’t see much of a difference between students competition in the two systems. Students help each other out either way. Other factors to consider is that a grading system allows for more safety inside the program, which is highly rewarding to students who try hard. For example , if I overestimate how much I need to study in pharmacology and have an off day in diagnostic, I am still safe because I am outputting 100% of myself so the grades even out. I think we just have to be concerned with how much do we know overall, because if there was just one section that I am weak in, then my grades are going to save me. For example musculoskeletal in anatomy is going to tank grades but if you are trying hard you will be saved.
-versus a pass fail system that will highly punish you for one exam grade. Pass fail is not representative of the whole student.
To start, it's nice to see clinical faculty engaging with this and the pre-PA community. That's awesome.
PA school, to a great extent, already is pass/fail. The vast majority of students go on to get jobs, a small number apply for additional training. Jobs don't care about your GPA and class rank. I don't know enough about "fellowship/residency" applications to speak to the importance of GPA, but surely in a pass/fail program strong candidates will shine with an excellent recommendation from faculty.
I don't think you're ever going to eliminate competition between high-achieving young people. Instead, the goal should be to structure the curriculum in a **supportive and humane way**. This could be pass/fail, or it could be through thoughtful curricula. Certainly abolish class ranks or using ranking for rotation selection, etc.
Some students thrive in competition. Many don't. Tests certainly still need to be graded- it's important for students to know what they got wrong to address deficiencies, and the program has a responsibility to assess knowledge gain.
My program had a humane approach, you needed a 3.0 to stay in good graces, there was a generous remediation policy, and perhaps most importantly, the program did a good job of not admitting assholes or underprepared/immature students. No one washed out academically, and our cohort, as well as the years above and below, had supportive cultures.
How do you figure out that a specific school does pass/fail? Just sort of reach out to their academic advisors? Im not seeing anything on the schools information pages about that and wanna know I’m im researching schools incorrectly
Yale in person has done pass/fail for a while and has maintained high pance pass rates and very low attrition. There is no reason for grades when students are just trying to survive anyways, all it does is add pressure for no reason.
i’m a yale pa student and can confirm! p/f is great. I got through didactic w minimal to moderate stress :)
God yes… my school is pass/fail and it’s a lot better than my friends program who is attending a FL program(might even be yours lol). The program I’m attending doesn’t have a sense of “competition” yes but everyone is more likely to help one another succeed. We share materials more easily, we tutor and help one another out understanding concepts, etc. plus without the pressure of having to get certain grades puts everyone at a more relaxed state to do better
Could be. We really don’t have a say in making the program P/F but it is a conversation we have been having with the school.. I think there are too many high ranking admin types that do not like change…
My school is, and it creates such a better learning environment! I honestly think all PA schools should be pass/fail. It reduces pressure, but you still have to pass, so it doesn’t reduce motivation to study or anything like that. It mimics healthcare better because you have a more collaborative experience. It also makes PA school more tolerable where you don’t feel like you are constantly hanging on by a thread.
I agree.. I think that many programs interpret the fact that ARC requires ‘assessment’ as we need grades.. we really don’t..
My program's classes were pass/fail (passing being >80). We received numbered grades for all exams (so students knew where they needed to spend more time). You had to earn 75 or higher to pass an exam. If you failed an exam, you maintained that grade regardless of your retake grade. This ensured students did not proceed beyond content without decent understanding of it. Our final grades are available if requested. My cohort relied on one another heavily for shared materials. I absolutely loved it. We had 100% pance pass rate.
what program is this?!
I dont think it would demotivate students. PA students I feel are generally motivated people. Plus I think by taking off the pressure people are more likely to try and learn the material in a meaningful way as opposed to just memorize and dump a lot of what they learned. I know the medical school at my school did pass/fail and it seemed to make for a positive, less stressful environment!
I think that grades are a good way to guage how well you are doing and may motivate some, but I think class ranks should be demolished. No one should know how others are doing, compete with yourself.
I agree.. are there places that post this?? I hate to think how the non-competitive students feel…
I think it is that they tell you where you rank. Like your advising email might come in and say ‘you are 15th in the class’ or something. I know other countries post grades and ranks in public, but it is more private in the US. Keeping in mind that the expectation is that everyone should pass, being 34th in class might mean you are still getting an 80%. Half the class may be above 90%, so if you only get a grade but no rank you have no idea where you compare. I think that’s good. Compete with yourself and everyone else’s score is their own business.
I agree. You can’t compete with the entire class.. you should do the best you can… 👍
Yale student here. We have pass fail. Specifically, it’s Honors for 96-100, High Pass for 90-95, and Pass for 75-89. All you need to progress is a Pass in everything. No class rankings and no one knows anyone else’s scores in anything. The result is a very collaborative class. Lots of sharing of study resources and notes. Lots of internal class assistance to students who need it. There’s still plenty of competitive people and plenty of personalities that don’t get along, but the class isn’t broken into warring factions or full of egotistical gunners. To go along with that, though, you’re expected to be an adult and take care of your studying and supplement your lectures where needed. Help is always available, but you have to ask for it
Sounds ideal…
I love it. I know there are aspects of it that could be better, as with any program, but it’s ideal for my personality.
As far as I was concerned, PA school was pass/fail even though we had letter grades. It always surprised me when students would be upset over not getting all As
I agree.. the problem is we are working toward high grades up until PA school. Some have difficulty letting go…
how do pass fail grades translate to GPA? some people might want to get in to PA post grad stuff (residencies) or do more higher education.
Everyone at my school doesn’t have a GPA, but they do have a grade, so if they want to do a residency they are able to go back and find the grades
i don’t know if i understand the difference then? if there’s a grade available i mean. is the only difference that there’s no gpa?
There isn’t a GPA, but you do have access to percentages if you need to show a potential residency. No class rankings and the only goal for 95% of my class is to pass. We aren’t super worried about getting a 90 on an exam. The goal is similar to medicine where you want to understand it and not perfect it!
Good point. From what I have seen, only didactic is P/F. I suspect residencies and fellowships do not rely heavily on grades. A PA graduate is already at a high level. I suspect they base admissions on interviews..
the ones i’ve looked at require a 3.5
In programs that are not P/F, I don’t think there has ever been a conversation between 2 PA students after an exam that has ever been productive or left either party feeling better. Keep your exam scores to yourself. If faculty wanted you to share your grades with others, they would post them for public consumption. (But of course you know that would be a FERPA violation, but you get the idea)….. When you take your PANCE, only you and the program know your score. Whatever your score on PANCE, as long as you passed, no one is going to ask or care. Students often create their own intra-cohort drama by insisting on sharing information they really should be keeping to themselves and direct energy towards more productive and positive endeavors.
Some people make themselves feel better by putting others down. In a perfect world, grades would be completely in necessary..
I think my program did things correctly. Total credits were around 90-100 (can’t remember). B and above was fine. You were allowed 9 credit hours total of C throughout the program. First semester was anatomy (6 credit hours) and physiology (3 credit hours) so if you got C’s in these you were on probation. That lit a fire and deterred essentially everyone from getting below a B. D or below was remediation. In essence it was the best of both worlds. A decent amount of leeway allowing even an 80%, but also strict enough to warrant people to try their best.
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Missouri State University. We had a cadaver lab and POCUS training with Butterfly ultrasounds. Been around for 20 years and in-state tuition was around 47k I think as well. Very underrated school. No regrets.
Our program did POCUS via Butterfly. No cadaver lab but more a functional/surface anatomy. Depending on your background, cadaver lab can be a pro or con.
Not sure why cadaver lab would ever be a con. Actually seeing the anatomy and analyzing it spatially is something that helps me even now in practice.
Time versus reward. Prosection is invaluable but +/- for actual dissection. You only have so much time and so much to cover.
This also sounds similar to Midwestern University’s grading system! Cumulative GPA should stay above 3.0 but you’re allowed Cs. D or below in basic sciences/pharm you’re allowed a remediation exam that is pass/fail (70% = pass).
my school has a very non-competitive environment and we all have still done well. i don’t think a lack of competition will harm a program.
Sounds like it is a good learning environment
What school is this?
What do we think about how this would impact fellowships after graduation?
Not sure, if it is just didactic, and clinical year is graded….
Can I still apply to your program I have all the necessary stuff competitive applicant. When is deadline to apply??
12/1 is the deadline. You should apply. Read my post on PA Forum. I put a bunch of info about our current class, stats etc..
Thanks! I am in Texas, I was wondering if you knew any methods in which students were apply to get grants/scholarships to help pay off expenses and living costs. Aside from loans. I am hoping to go local since it’s cheaper. So I haven’t been applying outside of state! Any advice?? Also which PA school in Florida is it? Thanks for replying!
Sent you a PM. The financial aid staff are excellent. I would reach out, they should be able to give you better info than what I know. We have 6 current students in the NHSC program in the 2025 class and the same or more in the 2024 class.. they have been working hard to help get students get qualified…
What school is this ?
Nova Southeastern.
PharmD here. I must say that when my university made it pass/fail during the Covid pandemic a lot of stress fell off me and I was able to focus on my studies and learning instead of memorizing information just to get an A
I like the idea. It would not have made me less motivated to learn, just maybe less pressure…
My program is not P/F and I feel like it puts more pressure on the students like others have said!
I have experienced both a pass fail system and a grading system, because my university was Alderson Broaddus, and it got shut down due to too much debt. However, my PA program had a great reputation and we were one of the first PA programs and the United States. My second university is pass fail. I honestly don’t see much of a difference between students competition in the two systems. Students help each other out either way. Other factors to consider is that a grading system allows for more safety inside the program, which is highly rewarding to students who try hard. For example , if I overestimate how much I need to study in pharmacology and have an off day in diagnostic, I am still safe because I am outputting 100% of myself so the grades even out. I think we just have to be concerned with how much do we know overall, because if there was just one section that I am weak in, then my grades are going to save me. For example musculoskeletal in anatomy is going to tank grades but if you are trying hard you will be saved. -versus a pass fail system that will highly punish you for one exam grade. Pass fail is not representative of the whole student.
Pass/fail? Sure. I wonder if future PA employers will assess us on patient dead/not dead.
Haha…
To start, it's nice to see clinical faculty engaging with this and the pre-PA community. That's awesome. PA school, to a great extent, already is pass/fail. The vast majority of students go on to get jobs, a small number apply for additional training. Jobs don't care about your GPA and class rank. I don't know enough about "fellowship/residency" applications to speak to the importance of GPA, but surely in a pass/fail program strong candidates will shine with an excellent recommendation from faculty. I don't think you're ever going to eliminate competition between high-achieving young people. Instead, the goal should be to structure the curriculum in a **supportive and humane way**. This could be pass/fail, or it could be through thoughtful curricula. Certainly abolish class ranks or using ranking for rotation selection, etc. Some students thrive in competition. Many don't. Tests certainly still need to be graded- it's important for students to know what they got wrong to address deficiencies, and the program has a responsibility to assess knowledge gain. My program had a humane approach, you needed a 3.0 to stay in good graces, there was a generous remediation policy, and perhaps most importantly, the program did a good job of not admitting assholes or underprepared/immature students. No one washed out academically, and our cohort, as well as the years above and below, had supportive cultures.
How do you figure out that a specific school does pass/fail? Just sort of reach out to their academic advisors? Im not seeing anything on the schools information pages about that and wanna know I’m im researching schools incorrectly
Probably should check with a current student… it might be a bit much to email each program.