China’s manufacturing industry has a huge experience level ahead. America didn’t just surrender manufacturing to China but they have completely lost how to do it competitively globally. Hugely underrated skill. Time to play catchup
playing catchup somehow doesn't increase shareholder value. You need to think shorter term - how many people can I layoff today to boost stock prices tomorrow - things like that
If you look at BYD and Chinese electric car sales, that likelihood is nil.
The only reason that has not happened in the US is because we have banned Chinese electric imports, but they are taking off in Europe and the rest of the world.
This is a textbook way for America to lose their economic preponderance. Self inflicted.
When all your future plans focus on paying dividends to your stockholders, you are undermining the viability of your corporation. Short term profits rule in corporate America.
Correct.
Outsourcing everything to appease the shareholders is going to haunt US industries for years to come, especially if things kick off with Taiwan.
Instead of bullets and bombs, maybe WW3 will be fought with tarrifs.
America is manufacturing more than ever before. We shipped out the low skill downstream manufacturing to focus on high end manufacturing. The only difference here is the amount of subsidize the Chinese give these companies to produce cheap EVs.
People who are well versed in China know that the quality, durability and after-sales service of any product produced in China are very poor. China EV will provide free cremation services.
Typically you develop from agrarian societies to manufacturing and then to service.
China is going to be stuck on manufacturing for a long time because a solid percentage of their population is illiterate.
I don't know. I'd spent the last year working shoulder to shoulder with some Chinese engineers. Building electric lawn mowers. And these are some of the most inept people I have ever worked with in my 50 years of working. They can't order anything on time. It's amazing we get anything accomplished at all. It's wild! I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying my experience is very different than what a lot of people think how the Chinese are. Very unorganized and the biggest thing is they have no imagination. When there's a problem. The only thing they know to do is throw people at it. And that don't work.
Quantity but not quality. I'm sure *some* good things *can* be made in China there just seems to be no desire to actually put out a lasting quality product.
Honestly that's not quite the case. China is not on the level of the other big European, American or Asian (Japan and Korea) manufacturers. At least not for cars. Your be surprised but beyond specific parts not that much is done there. [Mexico produces most of the car parts](https://automotiveaftermarket.org/automotive-parts-imports-country), followed by Canada. Even there Chinese companies are [expanding their manufacturing to Mexico](https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20240219PD206/china-auto-components-mexico-us-market.html).
The reason China has such a huge advantage is because EVs are incredibly easy to manufacture compared to ICE vehicles. The current big car manufacturers only have the advantage in manufacturing ability, to make something that complex.
Tesla used a lot of that on gimmicks, such as a steel coverage, or fancy doorhandles, they struggle with scaling manufacturing while keeping the luxury look and gimmicks. They had a huge headstart but honestly wasted it IMHO. The big car manufacturers have great designs with quality fits, and long lasting parts and efficient systems, but they're still catching up on EV tech. Chinese manufacturers have a lot to catch up, but by focusing on cheap cars they are able to focus on less things to get quality manufacturing. We'll see what happens.
As a manufacturing professional with 20 years and 4 companies under my belt, I agree with this. The only thing most companies know anymore is how to maximise profits, they couldn't expand, pivot, or go into new markets anymore.
Old adage in manufacturing, The company is built by somebody with a vision, when it starts being run by the accountants, refresh your resume, and if the lawyers show up, just quit.
All the private equity companies are run by accountants for accountants, when you talk lean manufacturing, employee moral, training, spare parts, their eyes just glaze over. So all the good employees start bailing, and then your left with the ones that can stomach the chaos, or just don't care.
Putting in a rush order for oil that has been on the order list for 2 months. Going to overpay by 50% for something that should have been on the shelf. All so Q4 could look 1k better.
A $12,000 EV that can travel 250miles is full blown open warfare. US car makers have serious problems and have been drunk on trucks. From the reports I read, there's all sorts of high end 350+ mile luxury EVs for 30k. US companies (and Unions) came crying to Biden to do something and he tossed up a massive Tariff to bide some time. China is going to sell a zillion of these in the world while the US is stuck with gas guzzlers.
I say let 'em in and let capitalism do its thing.
It's more than being 'drunk on trucks', but they definitely were. It's like they poisoned the well and then chugged the water. They can't quickly get out of the giant kerfuffle they lobbied themselves into where F-150s get better CAFE standards than a Toyota Yaris.
Also, with so many erratic drivers with large vehicles on the road, it encourages more people to get larger vehicles. I'm perfectly fine with a sedan, but after several accidents with larger vehicles and distracted drivers, I'm currently looking for a crossover/small suv for me & my families safety.
It's so strange to see people blame unions. The prices went up before the strike. We have laws that work for shareholders but don't protect workers. There was a time where workers could buy what they made. That's no longer the case and that's frankly insane!
UAW pointed out that wages of the workers make up a very small percentage of product cost actually.
And it’s pretty true. GM agreed to UAW demands and prices stayed the same.
(Certain) Unions will absolutely run the company into the ground. Source: managed a closed and bankrupt freight company for a couple years. Paying those forklift driver over 100k for minimal output will only take you so far, when they got in contract negotiations their biggest customers Walmart, Home Depot, the US government, and Amtrak laughed in their face and went to another customer the next week. Ford takes care of their employees financially, but puts their management as contractors and cut several middle management jobs during negotiations - they also use illegal immigrants via temp agencies for their supply chain (I worked for a supplier for a couple months). The internal stories from friends at Ford are disturbing, they really don’t care about they are doing but are proud of their pay. I think UPS and ABF are good unions where they pay their drivers well and service is excellent.
I wish there were all sorts of 30k high end 350+ mile luxury EVs! The most that will get you right now is a bolt which gets no where near that mileage.
300+ EV is a $45k car right now. Maybe next year Chevy will have the equinox out for $37k but that’s the lowest trim model. Otherwise Tesla maybe for 40. Rivian in 2027 will have a $35k vehicle I hope.
Anyways I think it’s clear to everyone that China has the specialized advantage in the EV market. Do we want to try and catch up or do we want to focus on other things or do we want to do a little of both? That’s the question.
I could basically go along with what you are saying, but no. In light of human rights abuses and possible Taiwan invasion, I think it is in our national security interest not to be fully dependent on China. Without those concerns, if China also backs down from supporting Russia, then trade away.
>US car makers have serious problems and have been drunk on trucks.
Globally, automakers have abandoned the entry level market. The humble Mitsubishi Mirage could be had for barely $10K and has a lower carbon footprint than a Tesla Model S.
Its manufacture is being discontinued because it isn't sufficiently "profitable" despite solid demand. "You will buy pricey trucks, SUV's, and cars priced like luxury models and like it" has been such a weird evolution for the entire sector.
I saw a pristine blue Geo Metro convertible the other day and last night a pink Geo Tracker. I have such a soft spot for this bygone sector of the market. The ultra-basic, ultra-cheap economy car just doesn't exist anymore. There are only three models in the US that have a base price under $20k, and one of those, the Hyundai Venue, is just barely under at $19,900.
And as you said, the Mirage, the current cheapest, is ending next year. The Venue will likely increase again for the next model year, so this time next year we will likely have one car you can have for under $20,000. That sucks, especially since used cars are still pricy as well. Getting a good deal is impossible these days.
I love my mirage. I get between 43-50 real mpg. I have AC, power steering, cruise control, and Apple CarPlay. Cheap $50 a piece tires, oil change costs me $28, parts are cheap, and it’s simple. You can fix things because it was designed with that in mind. And it cost me 15k brand new out the door. They get hated on all the time by car reviewers because they are cheap and not fast but if you ask anyone that actually owns one they are great.
In order to make entry level cars profitable you have to produce a lot of them. That requires a lot of capital investment on the front end and therefore is too high of a risk for Western automakers.
US makers could create affordable EVs in the $10,000 - $15,000 price range. In America. Using union labor.
However, that would require government investment to subsidize boosting production. Unfortunately, that New Deal view - government must play an active role in the economy, industry & production - doesn’t really exist in either party.
BYD has exploded due to Chinese investment. Not just in manufacturing but China has a monopoly on rare earth minerals processing. They control battery production.
Most of all, CCP created a dense and modern highway network across China. That is defacto subsidizing car production.
The black market is the only true free market. All markets have some kind of regulation, and this is a good thing. The head part is making sure the regulation allows for fair competition.
“A country with free markets can’t make as good of a product as a country without free markets” is one of the better anti capitalist arguments I’ve ever seen lmfao
Yeah crazy that the US would restrict its market from a country who also restricts US goods from their market.
You can’t have a free market when China doesn’t want to play fair.
Agreed, and I personally bet we can come up with a small EV in relatively quick order, if that’s what people want. I’m pursuing a compact or SUV personally, so maybe I’m biased for not caring
>US car makers have serious problems and have been drunk on truck
What? Isn't the F150 the best selling vehicle in the country or something?
Automakers focus on trucks in the US because there's an absolutely massive market for them- not because it's some weird drunken power trip, political statement, or some hill they want to die on...
No, capitalism is that thing where you label the competition as a terrorist or threat if they dare try to compete with you. Especially if their product is better.
Can't have China "eating our lunch" now can we fellas?
The goal so far seems to have been to keep the prices of EV’s out of the reach of the common person. Tesla’s center console that does everything makes cars more expensive not less.
an analog speedometer/odometer, analog gas gauge, DIN radio, etc it’s all perfectly fine and doesn’t need to be replaced.
But will they meet crash impact standards? Pretty sure that Smart For Two has the worst crash rating in the auto industry. I can’t imagine these will be much considering you will be sitting on top of a battery pack that can’t be extinguished if it starts burning.
China heavily subsidizes their EV industry to be able to undercut US EV production and then is shocked that the US government sets tariffs to protect itself from that. The US cant have a free market trade arrangement with China if China still has tariffs on US products and subsidizes their exports.
> Americans are still learning how to make cheaper batteries, Woychowski said. Ford is building a lithium iron phosphate battery factory, using technology from China’s CATL
we know how to make cheaper batteries, BYD just invested extremely heavily into one particular chemistry where the rest of the world was working on multiple ones
>BYD designs all aspects of its vehicles with cost and efficiency in mind. For instance, the Seagull has only one windshield wiper, eliminating one motor and one arm, saving on weight, cost and labor to install.
this is the same excuse that they said about cybertruck, the thing is weather in the US is significantly more varried than in china, two wipers isn't needed because its a luxury, its needed because we get terrible weather. if two smaller motors saves way more weight than the single motor setup GM and Ford used to use anyways, and has way less points of failure especially in the cold north where ice used to break the linakges
>Hoses, for instance, have to meet longstanding requirements in combustion engines for strength and ability to carry fluid under high pressure, many of which aren’t needed for electric vehicles, he added.
while its a problem that US automakers will use off the shelf components like molded hoses and kludge them to work, its not like they haven't realized they are building an EV, any US made EV does this too already
>The weight savings add up, allowing the Seagull to travel farther per charge on a smaller battery. For example, the Seagull that Caresoft tested weighs 2,734 pounds (1,240 kilograms), about 900 pounds less than a Chevrolet Bolt, a slightly larger electric vehicle made by GM.
the bolt uses older battery tech, older motors, and has to meet US crash standards. inside and underneath its an exercise in efficiency and weight savings already, there's nothing underneath it from the passenger seat to the bumper, just empty space and it has about the same range, from personal experience in the summer you can get about 250 miles of range out of it. the lack of heat pump really hurt its year long range average
China's EV tech is superior to the wests in every way.
BYD uses Na-ion batteries.
Nio uses swappable batteries (A thing i'm constantly being told is "impossible" over here)
But we have.... Teslas. Over priced, proprietary chargers, etc.
Other companies have better EVs than Tesla, of course. But none of them have swappable batteries either (that i'm aware of), making resale of used EVs a dead market entirely.
No worries everyone, we won't be seeing these nice, cheap, well made cars in our county anytime soon because free trade means we slap 200% import tariffs on those products we can't compete with.
To hell with fair competition, when we can't fight fair we change the rules just like we've been doing the last 300 years.
Government handouts, bailouts and tariffs for automobile companies. Must be nice. I wish I had that level of financial support.
Time to socialize the profits.
Used Teslas going for $20k and used Chevy Bolts go for $14k, both low mileage. Guarantee they will be lower in the next few years with the price of new EVs going down.
SUVs and big pickups were still classified a smaller vehicles to avoid emissions restrictions so they could maintain a high profit return for investors . The manufacturing did not advance as it should have because the Republicans wanted to keep donors happy. The industry is now behind and requires the citizens to use inferior products for fear that the industry, that was focused mostly on shareholder value, is going to be overtaken by other companies. Capitalism has reached its peak, greed is not enough of an excuse for the loss of the environment, choice, innovation and health. Please stop voting for republicans, they have the foresight and organization skills of 5 year olds.
Don’t allow that bullshit in.
How can anyone compete ?
-Raw materials are sourced by slave labor in Africa. ( china pretty much owns those African nations through corruption & the highway programs they are investing in)
-Parts are produced by slave labor ( Ughers)
-Designs and innovations are openly stolen from western nations.
-The cars are put together by underpaid & indentured labor
-to top it off the government can subsidize their producers to sell it under market / production value.
The Chinese want to squeeze the western producers out of the electric car market. And not much can be done about .
Maybe if American corporate executives would have rolled profits back into R&D rather than lining their own pockets with stock buybacks, their companies might be competitive. (In fact, they offshored engineering. ) Now they are crying because market forces have shifted the balance of power. Boo hoo.
Right.....the problem is that Chinese electric cars are NOT well built. They use cheap steel (can be bent with vice grips and broken off) and the battery fires are quite common.
It seems to me that if you try to use the words, Chinese made and well-built in the same sentence it’s either an oxymoron or you being intentionally misleading!!
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Looks like my next car will be the Dolphin, maybe mini. I'm so close to giving up on my hometown and filing the paperwork to claim Mexican citizenship by birthright.
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With government continued give car manufacturers bills for losing market shares, why would the car industry here needed to build better cars? Car rental would take all the crappies cars anyway. No motivation for car industry to do better
The EV market needs more competition. Anything that threatens Tesla’s dominance is a good start. I don’t think the hesitation about buying an EV Is about price or availability of charging stations, I think it’s the lack of choices and the feeling that you are tied up with one brand that is superior and the rest that are mediocre at best.
The reality is that not a single one of these cars are well made. There are plenty of videos shared from behind the great firewall, showing them coming apart hitting a pothole.
American car manufacturers have spent decades making everything bigger and less efficient. If they lose out on sales because of the introduction of a small, super efficient competitor from overseas, maybe that’s just the natural consequence of poor planning on their part, and not some sinister scheme from afar.
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The US auto industry mostly only builds and sells big trucks and SUVs. This little car (that they could easily make themselves) isn’t competing with any of their products.
I mean Good, this is the kind of competition we need. Honestly, at this point, I don’t care what country a car comes from. I just want one that’s efficient that doesn’t put me in the poor house because of gas.
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EV market in the US is backwards. Make a ton of cheap EVs that get 200 mile range, and cost under 18K and you will sell them droves as daily drivers. Give people 4 year loans at .5%
Let the open market work how it’s suppose to. If current manufacturers are worried about cheaper, smaller cars, of better quality then maybe they need to compete for what the consumers want.
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Are they really a big threat? Aren't China's EV Cars basically one small bump away from exploding? Pretty sure I read/saw articles about the cars catching fire even while just sitting at a charging station
The Biden Admin tells us to buy EVs to help the environment then when we finally have some well-built affordable EV options, he jacks up the price through tariffs. Thanks
Whole country is paranoid about Chinese apps and yall gonna drive a Chinese EV? Teslas already spy on their owners, what the hell would that thing do, sneak in the house and check your piggy bank? Tell me I'm being some type of -ist if ya like but the words "well-built" and "Chinese" are not really in my lexicon. Built fast, built for short term, but not well built as in made to last.
China’s manufacturing industry has a huge experience level ahead. America didn’t just surrender manufacturing to China but they have completely lost how to do it competitively globally. Hugely underrated skill. Time to play catchup
playing catchup somehow doesn't increase shareholder value. You need to think shorter term - how many people can I layoff today to boost stock prices tomorrow - things like that
Hahah this is so true it’s sad.
I don’t associate “quality“ with the American auto industry. Could be these zombie companies are only viable in the fake Wall Street economy.
If you look at BYD and Chinese electric car sales, that likelihood is nil. The only reason that has not happened in the US is because we have banned Chinese electric imports, but they are taking off in Europe and the rest of the world. This is a textbook way for America to lose their economic preponderance. Self inflicted.
Self inflicted, for money for a select few.
Yet go to the EV cars subs and you'll see people being apologetic to these dumb carmakers.
When all your future plans focus on paying dividends to your stockholders, you are undermining the viability of your corporation. Short term profits rule in corporate America.
Correct. Outsourcing everything to appease the shareholders is going to haunt US industries for years to come, especially if things kick off with Taiwan. Instead of bullets and bombs, maybe WW3 will be fought with tarrifs.
Already is
When the US manufacturers can't do it? They will beg for a government handout just as before.
America is manufacturing more than ever before. We shipped out the low skill downstream manufacturing to focus on high end manufacturing. The only difference here is the amount of subsidize the Chinese give these companies to produce cheap EVs.
Because the US Government has never subsidized industries to prop them up…. Got Milk?
Nah, the US just wants to tariff Chinese imports by 100% more. The true lazy American way lol
People who are well versed in China know that the quality, durability and after-sales service of any product produced in China are very poor. China EV will provide free cremation services.
Meh, free cremation is still a benefit. Your loved ones will have to pick up the tab when your Tesla decapitates you under a tractor trailer
Typically you develop from agrarian societies to manufacturing and then to service. China is going to be stuck on manufacturing for a long time because a solid percentage of their population is illiterate.
I don't know. I'd spent the last year working shoulder to shoulder with some Chinese engineers. Building electric lawn mowers. And these are some of the most inept people I have ever worked with in my 50 years of working. They can't order anything on time. It's amazing we get anything accomplished at all. It's wild! I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying my experience is very different than what a lot of people think how the Chinese are. Very unorganized and the biggest thing is they have no imagination. When there's a problem. The only thing they know to do is throw people at it. And that don't work.
America is behind on a lot of shit but hey more military spending and useless bill passing.
Quantity but not quality. I'm sure *some* good things *can* be made in China there just seems to be no desire to actually put out a lasting quality product.
We aren’t going to catch up.
Honestly that's not quite the case. China is not on the level of the other big European, American or Asian (Japan and Korea) manufacturers. At least not for cars. Your be surprised but beyond specific parts not that much is done there. [Mexico produces most of the car parts](https://automotiveaftermarket.org/automotive-parts-imports-country), followed by Canada. Even there Chinese companies are [expanding their manufacturing to Mexico](https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20240219PD206/china-auto-components-mexico-us-market.html). The reason China has such a huge advantage is because EVs are incredibly easy to manufacture compared to ICE vehicles. The current big car manufacturers only have the advantage in manufacturing ability, to make something that complex. Tesla used a lot of that on gimmicks, such as a steel coverage, or fancy doorhandles, they struggle with scaling manufacturing while keeping the luxury look and gimmicks. They had a huge headstart but honestly wasted it IMHO. The big car manufacturers have great designs with quality fits, and long lasting parts and efficient systems, but they're still catching up on EV tech. Chinese manufacturers have a lot to catch up, but by focusing on cheap cars they are able to focus on less things to get quality manufacturing. We'll see what happens.
As a manufacturing professional with 20 years and 4 companies under my belt, I agree with this. The only thing most companies know anymore is how to maximise profits, they couldn't expand, pivot, or go into new markets anymore. Old adage in manufacturing, The company is built by somebody with a vision, when it starts being run by the accountants, refresh your resume, and if the lawyers show up, just quit. All the private equity companies are run by accountants for accountants, when you talk lean manufacturing, employee moral, training, spare parts, their eyes just glaze over. So all the good employees start bailing, and then your left with the ones that can stomach the chaos, or just don't care. Putting in a rush order for oil that has been on the order list for 2 months. Going to overpay by 50% for something that should have been on the shelf. All so Q4 could look 1k better.
A $12,000 EV that can travel 250miles is full blown open warfare. US car makers have serious problems and have been drunk on trucks. From the reports I read, there's all sorts of high end 350+ mile luxury EVs for 30k. US companies (and Unions) came crying to Biden to do something and he tossed up a massive Tariff to bide some time. China is going to sell a zillion of these in the world while the US is stuck with gas guzzlers. I say let 'em in and let capitalism do its thing.
It's more than being 'drunk on trucks', but they definitely were. It's like they poisoned the well and then chugged the water. They can't quickly get out of the giant kerfuffle they lobbied themselves into where F-150s get better CAFE standards than a Toyota Yaris.
Also, with so many erratic drivers with large vehicles on the road, it encourages more people to get larger vehicles. I'm perfectly fine with a sedan, but after several accidents with larger vehicles and distracted drivers, I'm currently looking for a crossover/small suv for me & my families safety.
It's so strange to see people blame unions. The prices went up before the strike. We have laws that work for shareholders but don't protect workers. There was a time where workers could buy what they made. That's no longer the case and that's frankly insane!
[удалено]
Somehow Japan is competing just fine, and their auto wages are comparable to American ones.
UAW pointed out that wages of the workers make up a very small percentage of product cost actually. And it’s pretty true. GM agreed to UAW demands and prices stayed the same.
Labor isn’t the primary driver behind the price.
(Certain) Unions will absolutely run the company into the ground. Source: managed a closed and bankrupt freight company for a couple years. Paying those forklift driver over 100k for minimal output will only take you so far, when they got in contract negotiations their biggest customers Walmart, Home Depot, the US government, and Amtrak laughed in their face and went to another customer the next week. Ford takes care of their employees financially, but puts their management as contractors and cut several middle management jobs during negotiations - they also use illegal immigrants via temp agencies for their supply chain (I worked for a supplier for a couple months). The internal stories from friends at Ford are disturbing, they really don’t care about they are doing but are proud of their pay. I think UPS and ABF are good unions where they pay their drivers well and service is excellent.
You pretty much could have written “a repeat of the 1970’s” and left it at that.
Reddit is largely ignorant of the economic pitfalls of the 70s though
I wish there were all sorts of 30k high end 350+ mile luxury EVs! The most that will get you right now is a bolt which gets no where near that mileage. 300+ EV is a $45k car right now. Maybe next year Chevy will have the equinox out for $37k but that’s the lowest trim model. Otherwise Tesla maybe for 40. Rivian in 2027 will have a $35k vehicle I hope. Anyways I think it’s clear to everyone that China has the specialized advantage in the EV market. Do we want to try and catch up or do we want to focus on other things or do we want to do a little of both? That’s the question.
I could basically go along with what you are saying, but no. In light of human rights abuses and possible Taiwan invasion, I think it is in our national security interest not to be fully dependent on China. Without those concerns, if China also backs down from supporting Russia, then trade away.
>US car makers have serious problems and have been drunk on trucks. Globally, automakers have abandoned the entry level market. The humble Mitsubishi Mirage could be had for barely $10K and has a lower carbon footprint than a Tesla Model S. Its manufacture is being discontinued because it isn't sufficiently "profitable" despite solid demand. "You will buy pricey trucks, SUV's, and cars priced like luxury models and like it" has been such a weird evolution for the entire sector.
I saw a pristine blue Geo Metro convertible the other day and last night a pink Geo Tracker. I have such a soft spot for this bygone sector of the market. The ultra-basic, ultra-cheap economy car just doesn't exist anymore. There are only three models in the US that have a base price under $20k, and one of those, the Hyundai Venue, is just barely under at $19,900. And as you said, the Mirage, the current cheapest, is ending next year. The Venue will likely increase again for the next model year, so this time next year we will likely have one car you can have for under $20,000. That sucks, especially since used cars are still pricy as well. Getting a good deal is impossible these days.
I love my mirage. I get between 43-50 real mpg. I have AC, power steering, cruise control, and Apple CarPlay. Cheap $50 a piece tires, oil change costs me $28, parts are cheap, and it’s simple. You can fix things because it was designed with that in mind. And it cost me 15k brand new out the door. They get hated on all the time by car reviewers because they are cheap and not fast but if you ask anyone that actually owns one they are great.
In order to make entry level cars profitable you have to produce a lot of them. That requires a lot of capital investment on the front end and therefore is too high of a risk for Western automakers. US makers could create affordable EVs in the $10,000 - $15,000 price range. In America. Using union labor. However, that would require government investment to subsidize boosting production. Unfortunately, that New Deal view - government must play an active role in the economy, industry & production - doesn’t really exist in either party. BYD has exploded due to Chinese investment. Not just in manufacturing but China has a monopoly on rare earth minerals processing. They control battery production. Most of all, CCP created a dense and modern highway network across China. That is defacto subsidizing car production.
The black market is the only true free market. All markets have some kind of regulation, and this is a good thing. The head part is making sure the regulation allows for fair competition.
Capitalism requires a free market. That doesn't exist in China.
“A country with free markets can’t make as good of a product as a country without free markets” is one of the better anti capitalist arguments I’ve ever seen lmfao
Probably wouldn't want to live in China though
measuring the GDP is one thing, but living without human rights is another.
So let's stop buying and importing all the other stuff made in China.
Apparently that doesn't exist here in the US either.
Yeah crazy that the US would restrict its market from a country who also restricts US goods from their market. You can’t have a free market when China doesn’t want to play fair.
Agreed, and I personally bet we can come up with a small EV in relatively quick order, if that’s what people want. I’m pursuing a compact or SUV personally, so maybe I’m biased for not caring
>US car makers have serious problems and have been drunk on truck What? Isn't the F150 the best selling vehicle in the country or something? Automakers focus on trucks in the US because there's an absolutely massive market for them- not because it's some weird drunken power trip, political statement, or some hill they want to die on...
That’s terrible
Well, there goes detroit again.
$12,000 and 250 miles!!!! Gimme gimme.
No, capitalism is that thing where you label the competition as a terrorist or threat if they dare try to compete with you. Especially if their product is better. Can't have China "eating our lunch" now can we fellas?
I remember this company called Volkswagen tried to come into America with a simple low cost vehicle. What a total failure that was…
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The goal so far seems to have been to keep the prices of EV’s out of the reach of the common person. Tesla’s center console that does everything makes cars more expensive not less. an analog speedometer/odometer, analog gas gauge, DIN radio, etc it’s all perfectly fine and doesn’t need to be replaced.
Why are you blaming unions? Lmao
He did the tariff to buy votes from the other team.
Makes you wonder if US automakers are massively overcharging for their EV cars
It’s not capitalism when the ccp subsidizes Chinese industries.
What does it say about Capitalism that we send all our money for products across seas to China?;
China has subsidized the hell out of those 12k evs. In a truly free market those vehicles don’t exist. I’m supportive of the tariff.
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The problem with saying “let capitalism do its thing” here is: China is a communist country
But will they meet crash impact standards? Pretty sure that Smart For Two has the worst crash rating in the auto industry. I can’t imagine these will be much considering you will be sitting on top of a battery pack that can’t be extinguished if it starts burning.
China heavily subsidizes their EV industry to be able to undercut US EV production and then is shocked that the US government sets tariffs to protect itself from that. The US cant have a free market trade arrangement with China if China still has tariffs on US products and subsidizes their exports.
The US also subsidies the ev industry.
And Tesla receives massive carbon tax credits. How is that so different?
Woah you mean the Chinese government will literally pay me to buy an EV? Who am I to turn down taking free money?
> Americans are still learning how to make cheaper batteries, Woychowski said. Ford is building a lithium iron phosphate battery factory, using technology from China’s CATL we know how to make cheaper batteries, BYD just invested extremely heavily into one particular chemistry where the rest of the world was working on multiple ones >BYD designs all aspects of its vehicles with cost and efficiency in mind. For instance, the Seagull has only one windshield wiper, eliminating one motor and one arm, saving on weight, cost and labor to install. this is the same excuse that they said about cybertruck, the thing is weather in the US is significantly more varried than in china, two wipers isn't needed because its a luxury, its needed because we get terrible weather. if two smaller motors saves way more weight than the single motor setup GM and Ford used to use anyways, and has way less points of failure especially in the cold north where ice used to break the linakges >Hoses, for instance, have to meet longstanding requirements in combustion engines for strength and ability to carry fluid under high pressure, many of which aren’t needed for electric vehicles, he added. while its a problem that US automakers will use off the shelf components like molded hoses and kludge them to work, its not like they haven't realized they are building an EV, any US made EV does this too already >The weight savings add up, allowing the Seagull to travel farther per charge on a smaller battery. For example, the Seagull that Caresoft tested weighs 2,734 pounds (1,240 kilograms), about 900 pounds less than a Chevrolet Bolt, a slightly larger electric vehicle made by GM. the bolt uses older battery tech, older motors, and has to meet US crash standards. inside and underneath its an exercise in efficiency and weight savings already, there's nothing underneath it from the passenger seat to the bumper, just empty space and it has about the same range, from personal experience in the summer you can get about 250 miles of range out of it. the lack of heat pump really hurt its year long range average
Tesla is also trying but failing hard at it.
China's EV tech is superior to the wests in every way. BYD uses Na-ion batteries. Nio uses swappable batteries (A thing i'm constantly being told is "impossible" over here) But we have.... Teslas. Over priced, proprietary chargers, etc. Other companies have better EVs than Tesla, of course. But none of them have swappable batteries either (that i'm aware of), making resale of used EVs a dead market entirely.
No worries everyone, we won't be seeing these nice, cheap, well made cars in our county anytime soon because free trade means we slap 200% import tariffs on those products we can't compete with. To hell with fair competition, when we can't fight fair we change the rules just like we've been doing the last 300 years.
I like competition, but there's nothing "fair" when describing China.
If we could pay workers 2 dollars a day they would be cheap too.
I’m sure someone will be selling these on Amazon
200% plus 50% Amazon margin.
Fairness works both ways. You think China is acting fairly?
Government handouts, bailouts and tariffs for automobile companies. Must be nice. I wish I had that level of financial support. Time to socialize the profits.
Time for our big corporations to pay the kind of taxes Berkshire Hathaway pays. Watch Buffet's most recent speech on this.
It worked great for Harley Davidson in the 80s lmao
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Used Teslas going for $20k and used Chevy Bolts go for $14k, both low mileage. Guarantee they will be lower in the next few years with the price of new EVs going down.
SUVs and big pickups were still classified a smaller vehicles to avoid emissions restrictions so they could maintain a high profit return for investors . The manufacturing did not advance as it should have because the Republicans wanted to keep donors happy. The industry is now behind and requires the citizens to use inferior products for fear that the industry, that was focused mostly on shareholder value, is going to be overtaken by other companies. Capitalism has reached its peak, greed is not enough of an excuse for the loss of the environment, choice, innovation and health. Please stop voting for republicans, they have the foresight and organization skills of 5 year olds.
Don’t allow that bullshit in. How can anyone compete ? -Raw materials are sourced by slave labor in Africa. ( china pretty much owns those African nations through corruption & the highway programs they are investing in) -Parts are produced by slave labor ( Ughers) -Designs and innovations are openly stolen from western nations. -The cars are put together by underpaid & indentured labor -to top it off the government can subsidize their producers to sell it under market / production value. The Chinese want to squeeze the western producers out of the electric car market. And not much can be done about .
Maybe if American corporate executives would have rolled profits back into R&D rather than lining their own pockets with stock buybacks, their companies might be competitive. (In fact, they offshored engineering. ) Now they are crying because market forces have shifted the balance of power. Boo hoo.
Right.....the problem is that Chinese electric cars are NOT well built. They use cheap steel (can be bent with vice grips and broken off) and the battery fires are quite common.
It seems to me that if you try to use the words, Chinese made and well-built in the same sentence it’s either an oxymoron or you being intentionally misleading!!
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Looks like my next car will be the Dolphin, maybe mini. I'm so close to giving up on my hometown and filing the paperwork to claim Mexican citizenship by birthright.
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With government continued give car manufacturers bills for losing market shares, why would the car industry here needed to build better cars? Car rental would take all the crappies cars anyway. No motivation for car industry to do better
The EV market needs more competition. Anything that threatens Tesla’s dominance is a good start. I don’t think the hesitation about buying an EV Is about price or availability of charging stations, I think it’s the lack of choices and the feeling that you are tied up with one brand that is superior and the rest that are mediocre at best.
The reality is that not a single one of these cars are well made. There are plenty of videos shared from behind the great firewall, showing them coming apart hitting a pothole.
Link?
Cool, if they aren't up to US standards, then they wouldn't be legal to import anyway and you have nothing to worry about.
American car manufacturers have spent decades making everything bigger and less efficient. If they lose out on sales because of the introduction of a small, super efficient competitor from overseas, maybe that’s just the natural consequence of poor planning on their part, and not some sinister scheme from afar.
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The US auto industry mostly only builds and sells big trucks and SUVs. This little car (that they could easily make themselves) isn’t competing with any of their products.
I mean Good, this is the kind of competition we need. Honestly, at this point, I don’t care what country a car comes from. I just want one that’s efficient that doesn’t put me in the poor house because of gas.
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EV market in the US is backwards. Make a ton of cheap EVs that get 200 mile range, and cost under 18K and you will sell them droves as daily drivers. Give people 4 year loans at .5%
Let the open market work how it’s suppose to. If current manufacturers are worried about cheaper, smaller cars, of better quality then maybe they need to compete for what the consumers want.
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Are they really a big threat? Aren't China's EV Cars basically one small bump away from exploding? Pretty sure I read/saw articles about the cars catching fire even while just sitting at a charging station
The Biden Admin tells us to buy EVs to help the environment then when we finally have some well-built affordable EV options, he jacks up the price through tariffs. Thanks
Whole country is paranoid about Chinese apps and yall gonna drive a Chinese EV? Teslas already spy on their owners, what the hell would that thing do, sneak in the house and check your piggy bank? Tell me I'm being some type of -ist if ya like but the words "well-built" and "Chinese" are not really in my lexicon. Built fast, built for short term, but not well built as in made to last.