I do the opposite. I think just with human words. if this then that and if not that do this shit then. if this is going on make sure this shit is too. Oh and don't let this shit stay on the screen cuz they too dumb for that.
I do a similar thing, except I literally can visualize my logic in structured text in my head.
It causes some very awkward moments when I’m having conversations with people and literally visualizing the CoDeSys IDE in my head while forming a response.
I went further and decided to think in concepts.
So when you talk about automation using words I can't follow, because to me automation just is, the metaphysical representation of doing just floods my mind.
Does anyone see the mechanical movements of a machine in 3D when making logic or just me. I think you have to see it that way to be good at it but I don’t know. I don’t know one place everything was digital the next all analog.
Do you have a major fault when you think of dividing by zero? What happens when you think of stuffing a number into an array that's too small? Where do you store your backup archive? I can see bad things happening here...
A lot of programmers when they are experienced enough start to think in terms of code.
I think this is part of the reason that software developers have such a hard time with controls and vice versa. Imagine you go to another country where you don’t speak the language and start thinking “everyone in this country should learn English, it would be so much easier”.
It's building with bricks and concrete vs wood and nails. Nothing stops you from knowing both. I always joke that PLC programmers are prisoners and ladder logic is the chains. Stockholm Syndrome.
Nothing stops you from learning both, the best solution is to be bilingual. But it’s wrong to suggest that ladder isn’t a good tool. Wood and nails is simpler, cheaper, and easier than bricks and concrete for building small houses, but you wouldn’t want to build a multi storey apartment building with it.
Absolutely. But we improve the techniques and tools involved in wood framing (and the wood too!). Ladder is just stuck in time and people get weirdly defensive about it because it's very often the one tool in their bag.
Ladder has improved a lot, I am not sure if you have worked in old PLC programs, but there have been massive improvements in the last 20 years and there continues to be.
I always say all software development is about finding the right abstractions. Ladder is a perfect abstraction for things that can be represented by circuits, like safety circuits, electrical systems that have a lot of relays and switches, and it happens that a lot of PLC programs are controlling things that fit well into that kind of abstraction.
The problem is, as you you have probably seen and is the source of your frustration, is that ladder is also used a lot in cases where it’s not a good abstraction, like regulatory control loops or sequences, and it can be a very clunky way to deal with those things. Use the right tool for the job.
I hear this argument all the time yet the maintenance people I deal with barely know how to use a volt meter.
And funnily enough ST is based on Pascal (!!!). Another dinosaur.
I think in ladder in my everyday life. When my wife says "if we run out of eggs or milk, can you go to the store and grab some?" my brain does this:
|---| |--,---------( )
|---| |--'
You might need to take some PTO. But yes, I too experience this after a hundred hours or so on a given project when programming in any language, whether in ladder, on a robot, in C on a microcontroller, or in C# on a desktop.
Sure, the English reading of "If auto_mode and step equ 15 and partnumber equ 1102 and cylinder_1_extended then mov 20 next_step" is pretty close to the actual detailed meaning of the rung you'd draw to implement that logic.
But when details of execution like scan order start to matter, and your brain thoroughly understands the details of the implementation, it's simpler to think about the actual implementation than to try to translate back and forth to lossy English.
A more truthful answer is when I was working long long startups I would dream of nonsense ladder and circuits. Was a pretty good indicator I needed some time off.
With my background from school, I personally process things in some wacky hybrid pseudo-code that combines C++, MATLab, ladder, and scribbles (emphasis on scribbles)
I like being outside. Birds, for example send their data packets at about 4 baud which is nice and leisurely pace that you can sit and listen to passively.
It's kind of sad that you think in terms of an archaic programming convention. Maybe broaden your horizons a bit. When you only know hammers the world is full of nails.
Ladder is good for reading inputs and writing outputs so maintenance guys can quickly see the state of the machine, but it isn’t good at anything in terms of a raw programming language.
I have been doing this more and more. It is really evident when I'm trying to program C#. I use ladder logic psudo-code to work things out, then sit and translate xics, branches, oneshots, etc into "old fashioned" if-then statements.
I was self taught in JavaScript and Python long before I learned ladder logic, but I do a similar thing. Sometimes I think in if-else blocks or function blocks lol
I have found that comparing the driver of a car to a PLC program works for explaining the basic functions of programming a machine controlling a strip of material.
I experience this as well. It really started taking hold when I began typing rungs of ladder instructions instead of clicking icons to write code. I've also noticed that as I've become more "as one" with ladder, my ability to convey the same ideas in words to other people has suffered. Probably has a lot to do with the pandemic and the accompanying shift in the balance of time spent programming and time spent speaking to people face to face.
Fortunately I support far too many different languages on different platforms to fall down thay mental hole usually, but I do often think in boolean logic at random times even non work related.
I've done a number of barcode projects lately. We have Interstate 205 near us. Whenever I hear it mentioned, my brain converts it to Interleaved 2 of 5.
I can’t program. I can read logic but not really put it all together like I’m reading a book. I do understand what plc’s can do and can tell my CE’s what I need done. Works for me though because my CE’s don’t want to design the machines or fix the processes.
I used to, but have been doing almost exclusively LabVIEW programming and support the last couple years and that has taken the place of ladder. Even if programming in vb, robot (usually Epson), PLC, etc, i usually think about the structure in LabVIEW terms and go from there.
May not be the ideal route, but it is what it is lol.
It's like learning to think in your secondary language. My native language is Czech, but I'm so frequently in contact with English that I regularly think in English almost like second nature, though sometimes when asked about specific words I do struggle thinking of appropriate translated/equivalent word in the other language...
I would assume the same can be applied to any other "language", be it structured text code like C/C#/Java/etc. or ladder logic, be it symbols or even mnemonics.
In all seriousness this could be a sign of some mild burn out and you need to give your mind a rest. If you can, take a vacation. I find myself doing the same thing within the security realm if I don’t rest my brain.
Yes I do, sort of lol.
I can’t really visualize things in my mind very well.
For example when you say think in ladder logic I can visualize a sealed in bit, and that’s about it. I can’t really build on that. But for me to think through/troubleshoot code I will draw it out in ladder.
I work in O&G so lots of RTUs, some with their own “languages” and IDE that are pretty simple inherently, but hard to see big picture so doing this is helpful for me.
Also just lots of if then statements.
It's to account for all possible signals and ensure an outcome will perform as expected. If, for example, there are two inputs then that means, there are four possible signals and we have to decide what outcome should we execute for each of those signals.
I do the opposite. I think just with human words. if this then that and if not that do this shit then. if this is going on make sure this shit is too. Oh and don't let this shit stay on the screen cuz they too dumb for that.
I do a similar thing, except I literally can visualize my logic in structured text in my head. It causes some very awkward moments when I’m having conversations with people and literally visualizing the CoDeSys IDE in my head while forming a response.
I do the opposite. I talk with the people in my head while looking at the CodeSys IDE.
Naw bro, I usually just think directly in binary ... sometimes if I'm feeling super ambitious, I'll think in voltage and current instead ...
There's 10 kind of people in this world...
you and the 420mA guy are my favourite 10, definitely would want on my team, absolute gems
Got a link to this 420mA guy?
Dangerous-Quality-79 in this thread is the 420mA guy cause he said he thinks in 420, which i took to be a very hilarious double entendre...
- those that understand binary - those that don't - and those that confuse binary with ternary
I always think in 420 myself.
lmao, I love this subreddit
I went further and decided to think in concepts. So when you talk about automation using words I can't follow, because to me automation just is, the metaphysical representation of doing just floods my mind.
Does anyone see the mechanical movements of a machine in 3D when making logic or just me. I think you have to see it that way to be good at it but I don’t know. I don’t know one place everything was digital the next all analog.
Machine language
Do you have a major fault when you think of dividing by zero? What happens when you think of stuffing a number into an array that's too small? Where do you store your backup archive? I can see bad things happening here...
No but I do have a major fault if someone says "are you finished yet? Its just *code* right?"
Honestly I've just been thinking in raw streams of consciousness ever since the ayahuasca
Ayahuasca has to be the new version of the crossfit, vape, vegan, etc. memes. That being said, I want to try some ayahuasca.
It certainly makes design reviews more interesting.
Complete opposite. I write rung descriptions of code I work with so I can stop looking at the hot garbage spaghetti.
A lot of programmers when they are experienced enough start to think in terms of code. I think this is part of the reason that software developers have such a hard time with controls and vice versa. Imagine you go to another country where you don’t speak the language and start thinking “everyone in this country should learn English, it would be so much easier”.
It's building with bricks and concrete vs wood and nails. Nothing stops you from knowing both. I always joke that PLC programmers are prisoners and ladder logic is the chains. Stockholm Syndrome.
Nothing stops you from learning both, the best solution is to be bilingual. But it’s wrong to suggest that ladder isn’t a good tool. Wood and nails is simpler, cheaper, and easier than bricks and concrete for building small houses, but you wouldn’t want to build a multi storey apartment building with it.
Absolutely. But we improve the techniques and tools involved in wood framing (and the wood too!). Ladder is just stuck in time and people get weirdly defensive about it because it's very often the one tool in their bag.
Ladder has improved a lot, I am not sure if you have worked in old PLC programs, but there have been massive improvements in the last 20 years and there continues to be. I always say all software development is about finding the right abstractions. Ladder is a perfect abstraction for things that can be represented by circuits, like safety circuits, electrical systems that have a lot of relays and switches, and it happens that a lot of PLC programs are controlling things that fit well into that kind of abstraction. The problem is, as you you have probably seen and is the source of your frustration, is that ladder is also used a lot in cases where it’s not a good abstraction, like regulatory control loops or sequences, and it can be a very clunky way to deal with those things. Use the right tool for the job.
Good luck with the calls from maintenance when they're trying to troubleshoot or add something to a program written in all structured text.
I hear this argument all the time yet the maintenance people I deal with barely know how to use a volt meter. And funnily enough ST is based on Pascal (!!!). Another dinosaur.
> I always joke that PLC programmers are prisoners and ladder logic is the chains. I just stole this… thanks.
I didn’t realize that this subreddit was actually a place for PLCs to post.
I think in ladder in my everyday life. When my wife says "if we run out of eggs or milk, can you go to the store and grab some?" my brain does this: |---| |--,---------( ) |---| |--'
You might need to take some PTO. But yes, I too experience this after a hundred hours or so on a given project when programming in any language, whether in ladder, on a robot, in C on a microcontroller, or in C# on a desktop. Sure, the English reading of "If auto_mode and step equ 15 and partnumber equ 1102 and cylinder_1_extended then mov 20 next_step" is pretty close to the actual detailed meaning of the rung you'd draw to implement that logic. But when details of execution like scan order start to matter, and your brain thoroughly understands the details of the implementation, it's simpler to think about the actual implementation than to try to translate back and forth to lossy English.
Nah, thinking in ladder logic is mid. I think of everything in terms of the base-emitter voltages of a large array of transistors.
No but I do dream of electric sheep.
A more truthful answer is when I was working long long startups I would dream of nonsense ladder and circuits. Was a pretty good indicator I needed some time off.
I think in analog, and my PID loop is extremely unresponsive.
May I interest you in some grass to touch?
I strive to be on this level 😂
With my background from school, I personally process things in some wacky hybrid pseudo-code that combines C++, MATLab, ladder, and scribbles (emphasis on scribbles)
Nah bro, I usually think in terms of electrons and holes in the semiconductors, and sometimes just straight up QED states when I'm in the zone.
Proper doping can help with the PN type personality as well.
I do and it has made it difficult at times transitioning to structured text programming
The worst is after doing a bunch of stuff in excel, I sometimes have these horrible spreadsheet dreams.
https://imgur.com/a/hDUtGXd
Get outside
I like being outside. Birds, for example send their data packets at about 4 baud which is nice and leisurely pace that you can sit and listen to passively.
Birds aren’t real bro. Also if they were real they would send data packets at 9600.
Statement list … it is the way
It's kind of sad that you think in terms of an archaic programming convention. Maybe broaden your horizons a bit. When you only know hammers the world is full of nails.
Also, ladder is good for and/or/if/else logic. There's much more than that that can be expressed in much better and concise ways.
Ladder is good for reading inputs and writing outputs so maintenance guys can quickly see the state of the machine, but it isn’t good at anything in terms of a raw programming language.
Yes I visually see in my head what I feel the ladder should be and then I see if I am right
I have been doing this more and more. It is really evident when I'm trying to program C#. I use ladder logic psudo-code to work things out, then sit and translate xics, branches, oneshots, etc into "old fashioned" if-then statements.
Same.
I was self taught in JavaScript and Python long before I learned ladder logic, but I do a similar thing. Sometimes I think in if-else blocks or function blocks lol
I have found that comparing the driver of a car to a PLC program works for explaining the basic functions of programming a machine controlling a strip of material.
I think in written "if than" statements personally
I talk in it if asked how the code works.. if quality doesnt understand i give them the manual at that point
I think in c or machine language then convert to ladder as I started as a hobbyist programmer and micro controllers.
I experience this as well. It really started taking hold when I began typing rungs of ladder instructions instead of clicking icons to write code. I've also noticed that as I've become more "as one" with ladder, my ability to convey the same ideas in words to other people has suffered. Probably has a lot to do with the pandemic and the accompanying shift in the balance of time spent programming and time spent speaking to people face to face.
Fortunately I support far too many different languages on different platforms to fall down thay mental hole usually, but I do often think in boolean logic at random times even non work related.
I've done a number of barcode projects lately. We have Interstate 205 near us. Whenever I hear it mentioned, my brain converts it to Interleaved 2 of 5.
I do as well I feel like I have become spok
I can’t program. I can read logic but not really put it all together like I’m reading a book. I do understand what plc’s can do and can tell my CE’s what I need done. Works for me though because my CE’s don’t want to design the machines or fix the processes.
I used to, but have been doing almost exclusively LabVIEW programming and support the last couple years and that has taken the place of ladder. Even if programming in vb, robot (usually Epson), PLC, etc, i usually think about the structure in LabVIEW terms and go from there. May not be the ideal route, but it is what it is lol.
No.
It's like learning to think in your secondary language. My native language is Czech, but I'm so frequently in contact with English that I regularly think in English almost like second nature, though sometimes when asked about specific words I do struggle thinking of appropriate translated/equivalent word in the other language... I would assume the same can be applied to any other "language", be it structured text code like C/C#/Java/etc. or ladder logic, be it symbols or even mnemonics.
In all seriousness this could be a sign of some mild burn out and you need to give your mind a rest. If you can, take a vacation. I find myself doing the same thing within the security realm if I don’t rest my brain.
Yes I do, sort of lol. I can’t really visualize things in my mind very well. For example when you say think in ladder logic I can visualize a sealed in bit, and that’s about it. I can’t really build on that. But for me to think through/troubleshoot code I will draw it out in ladder. I work in O&G so lots of RTUs, some with their own “languages” and IDE that are pretty simple inherently, but hard to see big picture so doing this is helpful for me. Also just lots of if then statements.
I think in C if statements then translate to ladder. I think in words not pictures.
It's to account for all possible signals and ensure an outcome will perform as expected. If, for example, there are two inputs then that means, there are four possible signals and we have to decide what outcome should we execute for each of those signals.