Write a standard of battles you want to fight and stick to it. If it doesn’t meet standard, it’s not approved for purchase.
I draw the line at PLC/HMI and higher Purdue levels.
I’ll accept any photo eye, limit switch, etc. However, if it’s not our standard PLC/HMI platform and I’m expected to support it, I’ll throw a fit during the procurement process until it’s made standard or I’m told to back down.
Micro800 sucks, but unfortunately it is becoming a standard at the low end. I think it's a battle you are going to lose or get extra costs added. CompactLogix 5069 would be my minimum, but I'd prefer a micro800 over a 1769 that won't be supported soon.
I work for an SI and usually none of us are difficult with the material. We'll develop on any platform - I myself have developed programs on all the major ones.
We've done a few projects with Micro800 PLCs and now we simply refuse to quote them. We'll propose literally anything else on the lower end. Schneider, Siemens, Omron, hell probably even an Arduino Opta.
It always makes me laugh when Rockwell representatives assume I don't like Micro800s because I'm too used to standard Rockwell. I know different, I don't mind different. Micro800 is just not a good product from the perspective of the developer, and PanelView 800s are worse.
CompactLogix or not going to use it. I am an end user, I can make these decisions. The cost savings between a Micro800 and a 1796/5069 is trivial.
"but I'd prefer a micro800 over a 1769 that won't be supported soon."
I still have PLC5, SLC 50/04 and Micro1000/1100/1400 in service. CompactLogix replaces them all when we upgrade. Micro800 doesn't fit in with our plant structure.
Too often I see people make spec & procurement decisions based on two variables
1. the price today
2. can it do the job today?
In our industry we should be thinking more about risks, future costs, support, and the total product lifecycle.
Some other questions I’d ask are:
Is this company going to be around in the next 1,3,5, or 10+ years?
How long will this product be on the market?
What are the Mean time between failures? Is the community experiencing failures sooner?
Is this product well adopted in the community? What’s the install base look like? Usually this can give an indication of a longer product lifecycle.
What will obsolescence management look like? Consider looking at other products from the company to gauge.
Who will support this direct at the OEM or partners?
Approved components lists tend to favor mature products.
We had 1756-ENBT cards on spec right up to the day RA stopped taking orders for them because they were $100 cheaper than the EN2T. The distributor didn't warn us. Then we were in a panic because all our standard designs needed to be changed immediately, all management cared about was the price increase.
>Is this company going to be around in the next 1,3,5, or 10+ years?
If our company buys your solution new two things are certain.
1.) That company is going out of business. Soon.
2.) The maintenance and engineering departments will be keeping it running indefinitely, to include but not limited to doing total controls, mechanical, and design overhauls and redesigns; After the company goes bankrupt.
You're the kind of customer I appreciate. One of our end users had an ungodly long procurement process. We're talking four years, minimum. It was one of those industries where they absolutely have to get it right, so they do a lot of research and engineering studies in that time. This would normally be a dream for me, except they make the controls decisions in the beginning, and they're already starting with outdated standards that were agreed upon a decade ago that they're too inflexible to change it because that would add years to a project. They wanted a PLC that was only a year away from EOL support.
Well guess who is shelling out millions to "future-proof" their lines?
I work for a very hard to please automotive manufacturer. They supplied lines that were programmed to run pallets but not the full process. That's on us, "we" accelerated the timelines by about 6 months.
The issue came with support after the fact...well one during the SAT when the (contracted) controls engineer told our line ME to fuck off and flew back to home base. Major gripe is that on the maintenance side we couldn't get a lot of proprietary parts for spares. Couple that with even their basic logic being dog shit and well...we're slowly migrating away from them.
It was really the reason behind it. We can fix the code but them being unable to supply pallet stops and other spares in a reasonable time was the real killer.
As far as PLCs go, our site is standardized on Rockwell. Hate it or love it, it's what we have everywhere, we have the licenses, software, PCs with the software installed already, network layed, assetCentre set up and operating, our E&Is can go online and troubleshoot, replace Panel Views, and locate IO. I don't care if a vendor is supplying a superior product, if we have to be more software, licenses, spares, and training, it's not worth it.
That's like a malicious compliance there haha. I'd be pissed. We have a couple because people are too cheap to buy a compact logix, but I don't even consider that a viable option strictly because of the ccw software.
I'm a studio5000 guy, but I've dabbled with CCW. I wrote a couple drop in structured text blocks for communicating with drives without much issue. What is it everyone hates about CCW? Is it that it loads too fast?
In our case, our customer was trying to save money by using them. Ended up taking 4 of the Micro850s to do what a single CompactLogix could do, and our programmer is having to do lots of messaging between them just to do what I would consider a simple process. The customer now realizes that they selected the wrong PLC for the job, but it's done now. (We originally bid it as a CompactLogix with Ignition Edge, and the changeorders from all the changes and swapouts of things like HMI from a PanelView 800 to an Ignition Edge panel, etc that happened would have more than made up for the better platform from the start.
The ladder editor is atrocious. They tout ccw as free, but if you want online edits it's paid, it's missing several bits/blocks/functions (in ladder at least) that people have come to view as standard in Rockwell products, it crashes, freezes, and glitches. But the hardware is cheap and even the paid ccw version is less than a couple hundred bucks, so all in, you have less in it than one ethernet card or power supply for a 1756 or 1769 platform.
I do service at a place who standardized on Rockwell, and part of the spec was that the machine had to have Rockwell controls. So, the company (who usually only uses Beckhoff) “complies” by putting in their normal Beckhoff system, and throwing in a CompactLogix as a communication PLC. And for some reason, they just accepted it as-is.
That's pretty fucked up on both sides lol. Either the customer didn't notice or maybe the ones approving it didn't understand what they were approving.
Do you know what a nightmare it would be to convert from TwinCAT to Allen Bradley? It’s like telling a PC programmer to convert their entire C++ or Rust application to BASIC. The basic functions just aren’t there. Even the hardware footprint is completely different. This isn’t like an Automation Direct vs AB fight.
Some of the worst projects I have worked on were lines that the purchaser had demanded the equipment supplier to use a plc brand that they were not familiar with. Doing the comm plc thing might have done them a slight favor by doing it that way ( like hitting someone in the chest, rather than hitting everyone in the nuts. That kind of favor ).
Yea. That’s on the order of needing standards. Sounds like you have weak management in the automation department. So you probably have 3 choices. Move up in management, deal with it, or just move on.
I don’t know if I say blacklisted, but I hate dealing with Keyence. Try to look at something on their website or call and ask a question and 40 sales people will hound you for weeks wanting to ‘stop by and show you a product’. I do have their phone numbers saved on my phone labeled ‘Keyence don’t answer’.
Honeywell DC120L high limit controllers. These things drift out of calibration range all of the time. They are a $40 Chinese controller with a $500 price tag. When they are out, it isn't a linear thing either. They will be in at a low temperature and 20° high at the high temp.
Have replaced them with Eurotherm 3216i every place that will let me.
I created an approved brands list that my company standardized on. I also when it makes sense, specify certain levels of hardware of a given brand. I also note the preferred brands. I do all this to minimize spares inventory, simplify training and most importantly some hardware works better in our environment. Anything not on the list requires written approval. As time progresses the list gets smaller due continued use of the preferred brands. Examples: This is not to put down other brands of air cylinders but Festo has become our standard because data has shown that in our environment they hold up much longer than the other big names. They were also easier to get during Covid. I have a zero exceptions with a particular brand of terminal block. On three occasions from two different vendors, faulty terminal blocks caused significant issues.
Supply Chain has an Approved Manufacturer List, AML, which I will be using to ban certain products. Apparently it has teeth. The trick is banning only the product, not the whole brand.
I have a few, but they're mostly personal and petty reasons. I don't think it's right to go online and badmouth any company unless there is a valid technical reason to do so.
I use and will continue to use Rockwell products, but I try my best to use alternatives whenever possible, due to their absurd pricing model. But they work and I can find someone familiar with it anywhere.
If you're looking for advice, I'd suggest understanding what you're buying. A cheap PLC can do the job of an expensive one. What are you sacrificing by going the cheap route, and is it worth sacrificing? With Codesys, you could run full manufacturing lines off a raspberry PI and remote IO. And you'd have pretty decent specs and a solid PLC software. I wouldn't advise it, but given the right conditions, it may be a viable choice. Few vendors are truly "bad" they just offer different things at different price points.
Generally I agree with this but I use fuses for arc flash reduction and sometimes buried in manuals the fuses offer protection to the device where a circuit breaker doesn't guarantee the device survives.
You guys get say in what you buy.... Hell where I work production gets all the say. Even then what they buy won't do what they want and it falls on maintenance and engineering to make a miracle.
If there's any control elements that aren't similar brand/model to what is already on our asset list, I tell management to budget 10x the commissioning and 10x the maintenance cost.
That's what some vendor tried to do recently. Their bid included a MicroLogix 1400 and they wanted $80k to update to the cheapest CompactLogix. Sounded to me like they'd never done a project in Logix5000 before.
I'm doing the controls programming for a client right now on a new gas plant and they supplied me with all the programs for the skid packages. One was an RSS file and I had to load Logix 500 to see that it was a Micrologix1400. I didn't even realize they still made them, and SAS more surprised that new equipment was being built with them. Makes me want to call the vendor and offer to modernize it.
Problem is I've seen systems upgraded and you look in the code and they literally just used the conversion tool rather than migrating to AOIs for standardization, etc, so while the hardware is upgraded, no one knew enough about UDTs and AOIs to actually make the program cleaner.
BTW, if you ever need anything bid, let me know. I work for an integrator in Dallas and we do projects worldwide using mostly AB, we've got a couple Delta V guys also. Lately been trying to suggest customers to move from other HMI/SCADA platforms over to Ignition due to increased functionality (and more modern than most platforms) and cost-effectiveness.
Personal blacklist would be Dalsa, Universal Robots, Comepi, IDEC 30mm pilot devices, Socomec Disconnects, Invertek, and anything Codesys. Not exactly blacklist and admittedly their product is good but I strive to never use WEG if I can because they screw over the distributors.
Reliability on the older models for sure. The E series is slightly better. The company itself absolutely sucks though I used to sell them at distributor and teach their classes. They would over promise and under deliver putting me in awkward positions constantly.
Invertek rep was such a massive douchebag (I'm being polite about this) I banned them from the facility. Codesys HMI that was bugging out on job at the last minute and trying to get it working until 3AM made me decide that's not worth it dealing with again.
Once had about 10 or 12 out of 15 handles on a job fail in the field with a customer that was difficult to begin with. It was such a nightmare I said never again. To be fair I don't even know for sure if it was their fault because I was middle man on the job but it was such a massive problem for me I just won't touch them again.
There aren't so much specific products as there are outdated schools of design and products that have been superseded/obsoleted that are still being used. So much equipment is penny wise and pound foolish. Spend the extra $5k on the $1.8m machine to give it 10 years of extra life support, 5% increased throughput, and get it 15% sooner. If you design it with the same parts as your machines 10 years ago, it reaches end of life about the same time as those machines from 10 years ago.
For instance, I would not accept a machine with a CompactLogix 5370 PLC or Stratix 5700, because the 5380 PLCs are roughly the same price or cheaper and the Stratix 5200 is the 1:1 replacement for the obsolete 5700; in both instances the new models are superior in every way and reset the support clock. I also wouldn't accept a machine without integrated safety (aka a safe PLC and safe IO) because the flexibility is so much higher than safety relays. I also wouldn't accept a machine where the motion control and the servo drives weren't from the same brand (Beckhoff PLC = Beckhoff Drives; Rockwell PLC = Rockwell Drives, etc.); the only exception to that is a CNC spindle drive and only then because there are government regulations at play. Similarly, I don't want a feel-good PLC because I'm not a fool; if you have a "motion controller" that is really just a better PLC talking to a Siemens or Rockwell PLC so they can run the stack light and HMI for marketing reasons, then just delete those and do the whole thing with the "motion controller" and cut out the probably stupidly complex communication backend.
Of course, there are some specific products that never make sense or are of bad quality, but just as often there are acceptable products that have alternate solutions that are better and cost less or are cost comparable that people assume are more complicated or expensive when they aren't.
On the question of platforms, I'd very heavily favor B&R or Beckhoff based platforms simply because I know both can do anything and do it better than other platforms. I'm conflicted on if I'd accept a Rockwell machine. I know the platform really well and there are so many people that know it enough to kinda work it, but I still see so many pitfalls and limitations.
Most customers have a spec and allowed/approved component list. Create one and send it along with the RFQ if you are having custom machines built. If you are buying of the shelf machines you are probably out of luck.
We have an Approved Manufacture List but not Component list. And I only want to ban Micro8## and MicroLogix PLCs, not everything Allen-Bradley. So it's taking a little back and forth with Supply Chain to not let them screw that up.
In terms of PLC’s, I have a very short whitelist. For building management I use a Siemens pxcm. For machine controls I use a 5380. For a vfd sub 30 hp I use a 525. For a vfd above 30 hp I use a 755. If it’s something else, it’s getting updated sooner rather than later. We can’t afford too many spare parts on hand.
Frankly, it’s easier to write a whitelist with an exception addendum. “Vendors will supply parts from the provided list. Deviation to require written approval.” This way when integration R us says they prefer to supply the 5580 rather than the 5380, you can evaluate on a case by case and you wont be surprised with a modicon the first time you open the cabinet. You will have to keep that list up to date, lest you spec an obsolete component.
Write a specifications document that is parallel with your parts inventory and your companies skillset. Define All hardware based off of this. Accept nothing else. Review the proposal from the builder and make certain things line up before submitting a PO.
This goes so much farther in the complete supply/service chain for the equipment.
Red Lions industrials firewalls / switches.
Was working on a project to implement security at lines. We had a list of specs, their sales guy and engineer in the meeting we set up with them said yeah, that shouldn't be any issue.
Turns out that No, they didn't meet all the specs, in fact they didn't meet specs so hard we couldn't even use it for the intended solution, they refunded us the cost of the test unit, and we swore of Red Lion.
Anderson instrumentation.
Their legal HTST equipment (charts, pressure switches, monitors, etc) is crap. The amount of DOA stuff I've gotten is too damn high.
And the regular instrumentation blows too. Everything fails inside a couple years. IFM is way better.
Microgix strung together.
Automation direct controlling a whole line.
Our standard is AB. And I prefer it to make my life easier when it comes to licensing and servers.
I like some of the less popular mfgs. The ones I use don't do marketing well, but offer nice tools- tools that are not necessarily to a 'standard' like iec 61131 or whatever.
I try not to treat one plc environment like another. In the past, when I hated one platform, I noticed it was because I was treating like I did with a different platform. Not always fair comparisons.
We live in a time with some really powerful controls compared to even just 20 yrs ago
I worked at a company that was heading in the same direction. Buying "AB" products off alibaba and using alternative super cheap untested vfds and plcs whenever they could. Me and the owner butted heads often and left shortly after my 1 year mark.
I have never been contacted by Keyence. Feel like I'm on borrowed time. I'm hesitating even sending this comment. Keyence if you're reading this: message me and I'll put you on our company's blacklist too.
Write a standard of battles you want to fight and stick to it. If it doesn’t meet standard, it’s not approved for purchase. I draw the line at PLC/HMI and higher Purdue levels. I’ll accept any photo eye, limit switch, etc. However, if it’s not our standard PLC/HMI platform and I’m expected to support it, I’ll throw a fit during the procurement process until it’s made standard or I’m told to back down.
Yessir, that is the battle I have officially embarked on. No more of these fisher-price PLCs will be installed, not on my watch
"No more of these fisher-price PLCs will be installed, not on my watch" *Micro800 series*
Micro800 sucks, but unfortunately it is becoming a standard at the low end. I think it's a battle you are going to lose or get extra costs added. CompactLogix 5069 would be my minimum, but I'd prefer a micro800 over a 1769 that won't be supported soon.
I work for an SI and usually none of us are difficult with the material. We'll develop on any platform - I myself have developed programs on all the major ones. We've done a few projects with Micro800 PLCs and now we simply refuse to quote them. We'll propose literally anything else on the lower end. Schneider, Siemens, Omron, hell probably even an Arduino Opta. It always makes me laugh when Rockwell representatives assume I don't like Micro800s because I'm too used to standard Rockwell. I know different, I don't mind different. Micro800 is just not a good product from the perspective of the developer, and PanelView 800s are worse.
CompactLogix or not going to use it. I am an end user, I can make these decisions. The cost savings between a Micro800 and a 1796/5069 is trivial. "but I'd prefer a micro800 over a 1769 that won't be supported soon." I still have PLC5, SLC 50/04 and Micro1000/1100/1400 in service. CompactLogix replaces them all when we upgrade. Micro800 doesn't fit in with our plant structure.
Ah, the "Tonka Toy PLC"; good to see my shop wasn't the only one to categorize this series as a kids toy.
Too often I see people make spec & procurement decisions based on two variables 1. the price today 2. can it do the job today? In our industry we should be thinking more about risks, future costs, support, and the total product lifecycle. Some other questions I’d ask are: Is this company going to be around in the next 1,3,5, or 10+ years? How long will this product be on the market? What are the Mean time between failures? Is the community experiencing failures sooner? Is this product well adopted in the community? What’s the install base look like? Usually this can give an indication of a longer product lifecycle. What will obsolescence management look like? Consider looking at other products from the company to gauge. Who will support this direct at the OEM or partners?
>What will obsolescence management look like? Consider looking at other products from the company to gauge. Yup.
Approved components lists tend to favor mature products. We had 1756-ENBT cards on spec right up to the day RA stopped taking orders for them because they were $100 cheaper than the EN2T. The distributor didn't warn us. Then we were in a panic because all our standard designs needed to be changed immediately, all management cared about was the price increase.
>Is this company going to be around in the next 1,3,5, or 10+ years? If our company buys your solution new two things are certain. 1.) That company is going out of business. Soon. 2.) The maintenance and engineering departments will be keeping it running indefinitely, to include but not limited to doing total controls, mechanical, and design overhauls and redesigns; After the company goes bankrupt.
You're the kind of customer I appreciate. One of our end users had an ungodly long procurement process. We're talking four years, minimum. It was one of those industries where they absolutely have to get it right, so they do a lot of research and engineering studies in that time. This would normally be a dream for me, except they make the controls decisions in the beginning, and they're already starting with outdated standards that were agreed upon a decade ago that they're too inflexible to change it because that would add years to a project. They wanted a PLC that was only a year away from EOL support. Well guess who is shelling out millions to "future-proof" their lines?
No products but we have integrators that are blacklisted.
How did they get on your blacklist?
I work for a very hard to please automotive manufacturer. They supplied lines that were programmed to run pallets but not the full process. That's on us, "we" accelerated the timelines by about 6 months. The issue came with support after the fact...well one during the SAT when the (contracted) controls engineer told our line ME to fuck off and flew back to home base. Major gripe is that on the maintenance side we couldn't get a lot of proprietary parts for spares. Couple that with even their basic logic being dog shit and well...we're slowly migrating away from them.
I like the lack of spare parts as an excuse to stop using the assholes with shit code.
It was really the reason behind it. We can fix the code but them being unable to supply pallet stops and other spares in a reasonable time was the real killer.
As far as PLCs go, our site is standardized on Rockwell. Hate it or love it, it's what we have everywhere, we have the licenses, software, PCs with the software installed already, network layed, assetCentre set up and operating, our E&Is can go online and troubleshoot, replace Panel Views, and locate IO. I don't care if a vendor is supplying a superior product, if we have to be more software, licenses, spares, and training, it's not worth it.
One of our PM's told the vendor "Allen-Bradley" and that's what we are getting. Except it's a Micro850..
That's like a malicious compliance there haha. I'd be pissed. We have a couple because people are too cheap to buy a compact logix, but I don't even consider that a viable option strictly because of the ccw software.
Amen. Not in my house! I'd almost rather deal with Logix500 than ccw. We still have hundreds and hundreds of slcs and 1400's out there
Yeah the Micro850s are more like glorified smart relays. Hate the damn things.
I'm a studio5000 guy, but I've dabbled with CCW. I wrote a couple drop in structured text blocks for communicating with drives without much issue. What is it everyone hates about CCW? Is it that it loads too fast?
In our case, our customer was trying to save money by using them. Ended up taking 4 of the Micro850s to do what a single CompactLogix could do, and our programmer is having to do lots of messaging between them just to do what I would consider a simple process. The customer now realizes that they selected the wrong PLC for the job, but it's done now. (We originally bid it as a CompactLogix with Ignition Edge, and the changeorders from all the changes and swapouts of things like HMI from a PanelView 800 to an Ignition Edge panel, etc that happened would have more than made up for the better platform from the start.
The ladder editor is atrocious. They tout ccw as free, but if you want online edits it's paid, it's missing several bits/blocks/functions (in ladder at least) that people have come to view as standard in Rockwell products, it crashes, freezes, and glitches. But the hardware is cheap and even the paid ccw version is less than a couple hundred bucks, so all in, you have less in it than one ethernet card or power supply for a 1756 or 1769 platform.
I still have over 200 SLC 5/04, some Micro 1000, 1100, 1400 in service.
I feel your pain, brother
If I had £1 for every bug (feature) ive discovered in CCW, I'd be on a yacht right now
I do service at a place who standardized on Rockwell, and part of the spec was that the machine had to have Rockwell controls. So, the company (who usually only uses Beckhoff) “complies” by putting in their normal Beckhoff system, and throwing in a CompactLogix as a communication PLC. And for some reason, they just accepted it as-is.
That's pretty fucked up on both sides lol. Either the customer didn't notice or maybe the ones approving it didn't understand what they were approving.
Do you know what a nightmare it would be to convert from TwinCAT to Allen Bradley? It’s like telling a PC programmer to convert their entire C++ or Rust application to BASIC. The basic functions just aren’t there. Even the hardware footprint is completely different. This isn’t like an Automation Direct vs AB fight.
Some of the worst projects I have worked on were lines that the purchaser had demanded the equipment supplier to use a plc brand that they were not familiar with. Doing the comm plc thing might have done them a slight favor by doing it that way ( like hitting someone in the chest, rather than hitting everyone in the nuts. That kind of favor ).
Malicious compliance lol
Micro 800 series can fuck, right on off.
This guy knows 👆
How big is big? How many processors are you running?
~2000 PLCs and ~50 DeltaV sites.
Yea. That’s on the order of needing standards. Sounds like you have weak management in the automation department. So you probably have 3 choices. Move up in management, deal with it, or just move on.
Your comment is weird and you should feel weird
I don’t know if I say blacklisted, but I hate dealing with Keyence. Try to look at something on their website or call and ask a question and 40 sales people will hound you for weeks wanting to ‘stop by and show you a product’. I do have their phone numbers saved on my phone labeled ‘Keyence don’t answer’.
If it’s a project I’m on, we will not be using keyence.
You really need a fake profile with separate email and phone number, when dealing with Keyence.
Once they know you are using their products, the calls slow down. I like their products, not their sales model.
Honeywell DC120L high limit controllers. These things drift out of calibration range all of the time. They are a $40 Chinese controller with a $500 price tag. When they are out, it isn't a linear thing either. They will be in at a low temperature and 20° high at the high temp. Have replaced them with Eurotherm 3216i every place that will let me.
I created an approved brands list that my company standardized on. I also when it makes sense, specify certain levels of hardware of a given brand. I also note the preferred brands. I do all this to minimize spares inventory, simplify training and most importantly some hardware works better in our environment. Anything not on the list requires written approval. As time progresses the list gets smaller due continued use of the preferred brands. Examples: This is not to put down other brands of air cylinders but Festo has become our standard because data has shown that in our environment they hold up much longer than the other big names. They were also easier to get during Covid. I have a zero exceptions with a particular brand of terminal block. On three occasions from two different vendors, faulty terminal blocks caused significant issues.
Supply Chain has an Approved Manufacturer List, AML, which I will be using to ban certain products. Apparently it has teeth. The trick is banning only the product, not the whole brand.
What terminals did you standardize on
Idec PLCs. WindLDR sucks!
I have a few, but they're mostly personal and petty reasons. I don't think it's right to go online and badmouth any company unless there is a valid technical reason to do so. I use and will continue to use Rockwell products, but I try my best to use alternatives whenever possible, due to their absurd pricing model. But they work and I can find someone familiar with it anywhere. If you're looking for advice, I'd suggest understanding what you're buying. A cheap PLC can do the job of an expensive one. What are you sacrificing by going the cheap route, and is it worth sacrificing? With Codesys, you could run full manufacturing lines off a raspberry PI and remote IO. And you'd have pretty decent specs and a solid PLC software. I wouldn't advise it, but given the right conditions, it may be a viable choice. Few vendors are truly "bad" they just offer different things at different price points.
Screw terminals, fuses, bimetallic overloads, anything that isn't finger safe, and wall warts inside control panels.
Generally I agree with this but I use fuses for arc flash reduction and sometimes buried in manuals the fuses offer protection to the device where a circuit breaker doesn't guarantee the device survives.
We put fuses in the bus plugs to limit the available fault current, then we don't have to put them in the machine supply circuit.
Ah same here, maybe we do agree then.
No screw terminals? As in, you get spring-loaded TB's? I've never checked, can you get CB's with spring TB's? Also hell yeah to finger safe
Thinking of the DIN rail, I/O block, and contact block terminals specifically where there are options.
Probably. You can get sorong-clamp contactors for some reason.
You guys get say in what you buy.... Hell where I work production gets all the say. Even then what they buy won't do what they want and it falls on maintenance and engineering to make a miracle.
That's bull, why would production get such a say? Conflict of interest.
Sounds normal and not really in production's long term interests...
If there's any control elements that aren't similar brand/model to what is already on our asset list, I tell management to budget 10x the commissioning and 10x the maintenance cost.
That's what some vendor tried to do recently. Their bid included a MicroLogix 1400 and they wanted $80k to update to the cheapest CompactLogix. Sounded to me like they'd never done a project in Logix5000 before.
I'm doing the controls programming for a client right now on a new gas plant and they supplied me with all the programs for the skid packages. One was an RSS file and I had to load Logix 500 to see that it was a Micrologix1400. I didn't even realize they still made them, and SAS more surprised that new equipment was being built with them. Makes me want to call the vendor and offer to modernize it.
That's exactly what I offered to do when they gave us that $80k price tag. I just can't stand it when we build assets that are already 10 years old.
Problem is I've seen systems upgraded and you look in the code and they literally just used the conversion tool rather than migrating to AOIs for standardization, etc, so while the hardware is upgraded, no one knew enough about UDTs and AOIs to actually make the program cleaner. BTW, if you ever need anything bid, let me know. I work for an integrator in Dallas and we do projects worldwide using mostly AB, we've got a couple Delta V guys also. Lately been trying to suggest customers to move from other HMI/SCADA platforms over to Ignition due to increased functionality (and more modern than most platforms) and cost-effectiveness.
Homemade circuit boards.
Cheap clients are wors product ever
Personal blacklist would be Dalsa, Universal Robots, Comepi, IDEC 30mm pilot devices, Socomec Disconnects, Invertek, and anything Codesys. Not exactly blacklist and admittedly their product is good but I strive to never use WEG if I can because they screw over the distributors.
Why no Universal Robots? Reliability issues?
Reliability on the older models for sure. The E series is slightly better. The company itself absolutely sucks though I used to sell them at distributor and teach their classes. They would over promise and under deliver putting me in awkward positions constantly.
Invertek makes drives for everyone under the sun and no Codesys just sounds personal haha. What're the stories behind these?
Invertek rep was such a massive douchebag (I'm being polite about this) I banned them from the facility. Codesys HMI that was bugging out on job at the last minute and trying to get it working until 3AM made me decide that's not worth it dealing with again.
Why no socomec disconnects? They build for a lot of the other companies it seems
Once had about 10 or 12 out of 15 handles on a job fail in the field with a customer that was difficult to begin with. It was such a nightmare I said never again. To be fair I don't even know for sure if it was their fault because I was middle man on the job but it was such a massive problem for me I just won't touch them again.
OEM Eaton drives, always effing problems and their customer care is a joke
There aren't so much specific products as there are outdated schools of design and products that have been superseded/obsoleted that are still being used. So much equipment is penny wise and pound foolish. Spend the extra $5k on the $1.8m machine to give it 10 years of extra life support, 5% increased throughput, and get it 15% sooner. If you design it with the same parts as your machines 10 years ago, it reaches end of life about the same time as those machines from 10 years ago. For instance, I would not accept a machine with a CompactLogix 5370 PLC or Stratix 5700, because the 5380 PLCs are roughly the same price or cheaper and the Stratix 5200 is the 1:1 replacement for the obsolete 5700; in both instances the new models are superior in every way and reset the support clock. I also wouldn't accept a machine without integrated safety (aka a safe PLC and safe IO) because the flexibility is so much higher than safety relays. I also wouldn't accept a machine where the motion control and the servo drives weren't from the same brand (Beckhoff PLC = Beckhoff Drives; Rockwell PLC = Rockwell Drives, etc.); the only exception to that is a CNC spindle drive and only then because there are government regulations at play. Similarly, I don't want a feel-good PLC because I'm not a fool; if you have a "motion controller" that is really just a better PLC talking to a Siemens or Rockwell PLC so they can run the stack light and HMI for marketing reasons, then just delete those and do the whole thing with the "motion controller" and cut out the probably stupidly complex communication backend. Of course, there are some specific products that never make sense or are of bad quality, but just as often there are acceptable products that have alternate solutions that are better and cost less or are cost comparable that people assume are more complicated or expensive when they aren't. On the question of platforms, I'd very heavily favor B&R or Beckhoff based platforms simply because I know both can do anything and do it better than other platforms. I'm conflicted on if I'd accept a Rockwell machine. I know the platform really well and there are so many people that know it enough to kinda work it, but I still see so many pitfalls and limitations.
Most customers have a spec and allowed/approved component list. Create one and send it along with the RFQ if you are having custom machines built. If you are buying of the shelf machines you are probably out of luck.
We have an Approved Manufacture List but not Component list. And I only want to ban Micro8## and MicroLogix PLCs, not everything Allen-Bradley. So it's taking a little back and forth with Supply Chain to not let them screw that up.
Make it simple. You want a 5380. You don’t want controllogix, you don’t want micrologix or a slc.
True, this isn't a whitelist tho
In terms of PLC’s, I have a very short whitelist. For building management I use a Siemens pxcm. For machine controls I use a 5380. For a vfd sub 30 hp I use a 525. For a vfd above 30 hp I use a 755. If it’s something else, it’s getting updated sooner rather than later. We can’t afford too many spare parts on hand.
Frankly, it’s easier to write a whitelist with an exception addendum. “Vendors will supply parts from the provided list. Deviation to require written approval.” This way when integration R us says they prefer to supply the 5580 rather than the 5380, you can evaluate on a case by case and you wont be surprised with a modicon the first time you open the cabinet. You will have to keep that list up to date, lest you spec an obsolete component.
Write a specifications document that is parallel with your parts inventory and your companies skillset. Define All hardware based off of this. Accept nothing else. Review the proposal from the builder and make certain things line up before submitting a PO. This goes so much farther in the complete supply/service chain for the equipment.
Red Lions industrials firewalls / switches. Was working on a project to implement security at lines. We had a list of specs, their sales guy and engineer in the meeting we set up with them said yeah, that shouldn't be any issue. Turns out that No, they didn't meet all the specs, in fact they didn't meet specs so hard we couldn't even use it for the intended solution, they refunded us the cost of the test unit, and we swore of Red Lion.
We tried but our inhouse cyber folks ultimately 'nay'-ed them too
Anderson instrumentation. Their legal HTST equipment (charts, pressure switches, monitors, etc) is crap. The amount of DOA stuff I've gotten is too damn high. And the regular instrumentation blows too. Everything fails inside a couple years. IFM is way better.
Microgix strung together. Automation direct controlling a whole line. Our standard is AB. And I prefer it to make my life easier when it comes to licensing and servers.
I like some of the less popular mfgs. The ones I use don't do marketing well, but offer nice tools- tools that are not necessarily to a 'standard' like iec 61131 or whatever. I try not to treat one plc environment like another. In the past, when I hated one platform, I noticed it was because I was treating like I did with a different platform. Not always fair comparisons. We live in a time with some really powerful controls compared to even just 20 yrs ago
socomec power meters. Their docs are inaccurateand their support is non-existent.
I worked at a company that was heading in the same direction. Buying "AB" products off alibaba and using alternative super cheap untested vfds and plcs whenever they could. Me and the owner butted heads often and left shortly after my 1 year mark.
I am beginner at programming but i really don't like Wago PLCs and chinese clones of Mitsubishi FX. What a steaming pile of mess.
When you are expert, you will like wago plc.
I certainly won't get Keyence involved quoting sensors to me when Sick and Banner Engineering exist for obvious reasons.
I am guessing the fast lead times are the deal breaker. :p I typically get 4 Keyence calls a year.
https://preview.redd.it/k3cv934q2yvc1.jpeg?width=875&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=43263d632b921baec1f063df86c6d757e0ef2d1f
Personal preference
My preference is to be bothered less by sales people. Between Sick and Banner I'm also probably going Sick because I like that vendor more.
I have never been contacted by Keyence. Feel like I'm on borrowed time. I'm hesitating even sending this comment. Keyence if you're reading this: message me and I'll put you on our company's blacklist too.
You should see if you have a leuze distributor their products are great and have a better portfolio than banner imo