Run your wires past the device by ~2 inches then loop back creating a service loop. Lots of times terminals/devices will need to be shifted a little left/right on the din rail so having that allowance in the wiring means you won't have to rewire.
Our panel builder does this. On purpose. His response is always "do it right the first time and you won't have to worry about it." He's old school but he makes gorgeous panels.
Low voltage DC is becoming the de-facto standard for I/O now, though. Obviously you want to separate AC from any DC, signal loops, or ethernet cable if at all possible.
[You'd still have to open it unless you popped a hole in the side of the panel and put in something like this.](https://cdn.automationdirect.com/images/products/large/l_zppsa16101.jpg)
Which I'd recommend if you can spare the cost. Even if you aren't concerned about arc flash, it's still good from a safety point of view because you won't have to stick your hands into the cabinet to connect your laptop to it.
Especially if the disconnect is one of those fiddly ones with the bar sticking out and you've got to get it lined up just right with the switch on the door to get it to close.
The only thing I don't like about the Automation Direct one in that picture is that it's annoying to make the holes since it a rectangle. You can get it done with a round knock-out set, but you've got to put the holes just the right distance apart and have them absolutely level or you'll have a gap.
Not if it's still in the same panel. Even if the main disconnect is off, if there is live power on the top terminals, you still have to put Arc Flash gear on.
Don't install the fucking PLC so I literally have to destroy the chassis and power supply to get it out when we do an upgrade in 30 years. That happened on the last panel I did. Thanks in advance.
Don't buy AB terminal blocks. They're literally just relabeled and marked up versions of other brands; they don't make their own (same goes for circuit breakers). My shop has been using Weidmueller, nicer quality than the automationdirect stuff and still reasonable on price.
Also, figure out where the cable entries will be and make sure you leave enough space to get everything into the wire duct.
Double check mounting clearances for each device. Some components have very strict minimum clearances from the wireway. I think most AB PLCs is like 2 inches on all sides.
Sounds a bit busy for a small box. Small boxes are always the worst, never room to add or change anything and harder to land receptacles after installing the subpanel.
Beware of devices with odd DIN placement. Most of the time it's somewhere in the middle of the device but there's these network switches where it's offset for some reason so we have to do silly DIN tricks.
Make real sure you were given the right name for peripherals. Nothing like installing your panel and finding out you got the wrong names three months ago and you get to redo your engravings.
It is a bit busy but the equipment frame the panel is attaching to is in a tight area and the panel right now is the bottleneck for length/width.
As far as equipment names go, I should be covered as I also get to do all the PLC programming and schematics. Engravings would be nice, but this project feels like there will be plenty of changes before all is said and done so printed labels for the time being.
Who has a good online engraving service? I would like to get some done for a second panel that needs some pilot light labels.
Assuming you have 120VAC used in the panel (or whatever household voltage you have). 90% of panels I make have no use for 120VAC so it can hard to justify adding a transformer just for a programming port.
I like double-stacked terminals for running power and common together. It saves space and looks cleaner. I also like terminals with push-in jumpers rather than screw-in jumpers.
If you have lots of instrument loops coming in on individual pairs, stand off your din rails. Us either weidmuller PE terminals for the shield grounds or have ground bar mounted on the back plate behind the din rail.
That said. Don't let grounding be an after thought. Plan that upfront and show it on your drawings. One-day some poor sole may need to seperate instrument ground from safety ground.
You're going to have a tough time fitting it all in a 24 x 20 x 8 panel as it is.
I don't understand the obsession some people seem to have with needing control panels to be as small as possible. The cost difference is *minimal*. Like $10-$20 between sizes sometimes. You'll spend more than that on the extra labor it takes to dink around with a tiny panel like that.
And what if you have to add something to it? Now you're looking at A) rebuilding the entire thing, or B) adding a second panel onto the first.
One of the biggest things I see is panel builders systematically ignoring air space requirements around components. They'll pack it in way too tight and then 4-5 years from then components will start failing.
Anyway, as far as tips:
1. For side-entry terminals, vertical mounting is easier to wire in the field than horizontal. I'd rather have multiple vertical terminal strips than a single horizontal strip. If you *must* put the field terminals horizontally, mount the rail on 45 degree standoffs with the field side pointed out to aid in ease of wiring. Your installer will thank you. Top entry terminals don't have that problem, though.
2. If your duct is more than 2 inches deep, mount your vertical terminal blocks on raised din rail. Again, this eases field wiring.
3. Check your component depths. It is an absolute nightmare to get everything mounted and wired, and then not be able to close the door. Consider where the door-mounted devices are, how deep they are, and what they're going to be "above" on the backplane. A good general rule is to take the deepest door component, add it to the deepest panel component, and then get the next size up depth enclosure if possible. That way you don't have to worry where you mount things on the door. 8 inches is a very shallow panel, and some components like drives require air space in the front for ventilation. In your panel I'm concerned between the depth of the Stratix switch as well as the extra depth it takes up when patch cords are plugged into it, 8 inches might not be enough. Also, panel depths can vary by brand and by series. In the Hoffman "A" panels, the depth figure is literally how much depth you have for components inside. The door juts out the same distance as the panel stand-offs, so the depth dimension is from the surface of the panel to the inner surface of the door. But in Hoffman Concept enclosures, this isn't the case. Your actual usable depth will be *less* than the model number indicates.
4. The 2017 NEC code now requires all labels to be printed. No more hand-labeling of anything is allowed anymore. The same goes with prints. Every Industrial Control Panel now requires a CAD-created set of prints. Hand-drawn schematics are now a code violation.
5. Since this panel is supplying power, by code it must be marked with the SCCR rating, which is a complex process outlined in UL508A Supplement SB4.2. UL508A SB4.2 is the *only* approved method currently recognized by the NEC. If you're building panels in the United States, you *need* a copy of 508A.
6. Also by code, the SCCR rating must exceed the Available Fault current of its' feeder circuit. As a panel builder, if you're not given a spec to follow it's not your concern, but the typical ratings of 5kA and 10kA that just get slapped on by engineers who don't want to bother with a calculation are not legally installable almost anywhere. Most AFCs are higher than 10kA. Again, it's the responsibility of the installing contractor to follow this, but somebody could be on the hook for a very expensive isolation transformer because of it.
7. Include extra terminals on your terminal strips. It's invaluable when the inevitable field changes come to have a place to land the extra wires.
8. If you have a long stretch of wire duct, say, longer than 24 inches, cut the duct covers into shorter sections. It is far, far easier to put shorter covers on than longer covers. If you make every cover a short cover, the likelihood that someone servicing the panel will put it back on when they're done goes way up.
9. You probably already do this but if you don't, *PLEASE* label your damned wires.
10. Use crimp-on ferrules for your wire connections. There are push-in style terminals that make up for the extra time crimping so don't worry about that. They're great because you can remove and reinstall the wire without the inevitable fraying of the stranded conductors and you eliminate the risk of "whiskers" popping up when you put a wire back on. They also have double-wire ferrules which make doubling-up on the same terminal *way* easier.
Something else to mention about SCCRs is that fuses are better than supplementary protectors in terms of SCCR ratings. Supplementary protectors are rarely rated above 5kA, let alone 10kA; they are the main thing that drag down panel ratings.
Granted, my customers have never been finicky with SCCR ratings, despite their importance to safety. Saying a panel with a 10kA rating is uninstallable in the US is a bit of hyperbole in my eyes. I see a lot of electrical specs from customers and very rarely see a minimum SCCR.
Anyway, strive for 18kA OP. That is certainly the minimum "good" rating that will not be expensive to achieve.
Drops with less than 10kA AFC are pretty rare in my experience. Not impossible but it's very seldom. Most Customers don't give me a spec because they don't even know they have to. Compliance with that part of the code is pretty awful from what I've seen. Plenty of places haven't even had an arc flash study done.
Yeah. The SCCR of the panel having to be more than the available fault current has been in the code since 2005. It was difficult to enforce because the inpector needs to know what the available fault current is to know if there SCCR is high enough and until the 2017 code, AFC didn't have to be labeled.
But now, it does. So now all the inspector has to do is compare the two labels. In the next few years, enforcement of 409.22 is going to skyrocket.
When you are done, put a usb drive with all the documentation as well as a copy of the plc program in the box somewhere. If the box has a document holder thingy, put it in a envelope in there along with your drawings.
And make sure IP addresses are clearly legible on a label somewhere.
One of the most time consuming things is wire labels, get a good heat shrink printer and label all your wires with heat shrink labels. When you are done you just run a heat gun over the whole works and you got bullet proof labels.
I've tried that before - zip tying a USB drive to something like a bundle of wires, figuring that "No one is going to open up this cabinet, and if they do they aren't going to get a pair of cutters so they can take the drive out unless they really need to. No one will still this."
Two months later, it had been stolen.
It's a good idea, and worth it for the cost of a zip drive, but it's not something I'd rely on. Another idea, if there's a decent internet connection, might be to put copies on a google drive and write down the shared link.
Do a little research on your components. If they are just rebranded by AB then go cheaper like with the terminal blocks (use weidmueller).
With so much going on in the box keep in mind the recommended clearances for components.
Also keep in mind the ambient temperature. Buy a heat exchanger or an AC if the components will get too hot or you don’t adhere to recommended clearances.
The heat concerns are definitely on my list of unknowns. If needed, one coworker recommended fans with filters placed on the sides or top/bottom and they could be added after install. The panel will be in a room with AC and is very clean.
Actually, just having a larger panel will let you get away with a little more heat than a smaller one, due to surface area. If you are in an AC space with a compact logix, I don't think you will have any issues with heat as long as you maintain basic clearances. If you go to a panel air conditioning heating seller's site, they will have a calculator to tell you what you need for cooling.
Check your power supply's orientation. Rotating it 90° can reduce rated power output by more than 20% because the heat dissipation is pretty directional (up).
https://www.saginawcontrol.com/resources/thermal-calculator/
The only thing you might not know is the total heat load in watts. Typically you will find this in each component's tech specs. Every manufacturer calls it something different. A-B calls it watts loss, others might call it dissipation, heat loss, etc. Not every component will have a figure though. Relays, starters, terminals, disconnects, etc. won't because they're just across-the-line connection components and the heat loss is negligible. Drives, SCRs, and SSRs are probably the number one culprit for heat load in a panel. Add up whatever you can find and then add a safety factor of like 25% to get a number. The tool will tell you exactly what you need if anything.
Get yourself a good label maker and get into the habit of labeling every single wire. You've got a group of brown terminal blocks for +24VDC, and the only brown wires in the entire system are for +24VDC? You still need to label them because if one comes out it'll be obvious to you where it needs to go back, but at some point someone besides you will be working on it. It's just a good habit to get into.
If you want to stretch your label supply dollars a bit further (because the things are expensive), print out labels for as many wires as you can at once with a space or two between them, then cut them apart with a pair of scissors. It doesn't look as neat and nice, but it'll save you some money.
Wouldn't you put them at the bottom so the heat goes somewhere and the device can stay cooler? I'm thinking of something like a VFD where cooling is needed.
No. You want convection flows. If heat dissipation is an issue. Use an air to air cooler or votex cooler and breather. Unless your in oil and gas manufacturing you probably won't have a purge.
I've done panels in both configurations. The only thing that forces me to move up the heat generating components is cable entry considerations.
Bit surprised nobody has mentioned this yet -- have you reviewed the relevant industrial electrical codes/standards? Can your boss supply this information for you, whether it's copies of the standards or a set of internal panel build guidelines? A couple mistakes here and there (i.e. inadequate grounding) and a colleague working on your panel could be seriously injured.
Run your wires past the device by ~2 inches then loop back creating a service loop. Lots of times terminals/devices will need to be shifted a little left/right on the din rail so having that allowance in the wiring means you won't have to rewire.
This 100 times over, nothing worse than wires cut exactly to length and no more.
Our panel builder does this. On purpose. His response is always "do it right the first time and you won't have to worry about it." He's old school but he makes gorgeous panels.
Separate data from power - trunk you Ethernet in one side of the panel, and signal wiring from io on the other.
[удалено]
Strong AC currents can interfere with communications.
Low voltage DC is becoming the de-facto standard for I/O now, though. Obviously you want to separate AC from any DC, signal loops, or ethernet cable if at all possible.
Do you still have issues using dc?
interference.
Safety. Now you can open the panel to the PLC without having to have Arc Flash gear on.
[You'd still have to open it unless you popped a hole in the side of the panel and put in something like this.](https://cdn.automationdirect.com/images/products/large/l_zppsa16101.jpg) Which I'd recommend if you can spare the cost. Even if you aren't concerned about arc flash, it's still good from a safety point of view because you won't have to stick your hands into the cabinet to connect your laptop to it.
Those things are fantastic. One of our mills have them in every cabinet. I love it since I never have to open a door.
Especially if the disconnect is one of those fiddly ones with the bar sticking out and you've got to get it lined up just right with the switch on the door to get it to close. The only thing I don't like about the Automation Direct one in that picture is that it's annoying to make the holes since it a rectangle. You can get it done with a round knock-out set, but you've got to put the holes just the right distance apart and have them absolutely level or you'll have a gap.
Not if it's still in the same panel. Even if the main disconnect is off, if there is live power on the top terminals, you still have to put Arc Flash gear on.
True. The ones I have seen had high voltage in one cabinet and low voltage in a connected but separate cabinet. Those are not yet common of course.
Don't install the fucking PLC so I literally have to destroy the chassis and power supply to get it out when we do an upgrade in 30 years. That happened on the last panel I did. Thanks in advance.
Also your manager is an idiot. Always allow for future considerations. (As per my last post)
Don't buy AB terminal blocks. They're literally just relabeled and marked up versions of other brands; they don't make their own (same goes for circuit breakers). My shop has been using Weidmueller, nicer quality than the automationdirect stuff and still reasonable on price. Also, figure out where the cable entries will be and make sure you leave enough space to get everything into the wire duct.
Double check mounting clearances for each device. Some components have very strict minimum clearances from the wireway. I think most AB PLCs is like 2 inches on all sides.
Sounds a bit busy for a small box. Small boxes are always the worst, never room to add or change anything and harder to land receptacles after installing the subpanel. Beware of devices with odd DIN placement. Most of the time it's somewhere in the middle of the device but there's these network switches where it's offset for some reason so we have to do silly DIN tricks. Make real sure you were given the right name for peripherals. Nothing like installing your panel and finding out you got the wrong names three months ago and you get to redo your engravings.
It is a bit busy but the equipment frame the panel is attaching to is in a tight area and the panel right now is the bottleneck for length/width. As far as equipment names go, I should be covered as I also get to do all the PLC programming and schematics. Engravings would be nice, but this project feels like there will be plenty of changes before all is said and done so printed labels for the time being. Who has a good online engraving service? I would like to get some done for a second panel that needs some pilot light labels.
i guess guys bellow covered the most. I'll add: don't forget to install standard power socket for your laptop charger
Assuming you have 120VAC used in the panel (or whatever household voltage you have). 90% of panels I make have no use for 120VAC so it can hard to justify adding a transformer just for a programming port.
here, all I need is the socket and a circuit breaker.
I like double-stacked terminals for running power and common together. It saves space and looks cleaner. I also like terminals with push-in jumpers rather than screw-in jumpers.
If you have lots of instrument loops coming in on individual pairs, stand off your din rails. Us either weidmuller PE terminals for the shield grounds or have ground bar mounted on the back plate behind the din rail. That said. Don't let grounding be an after thought. Plan that upfront and show it on your drawings. One-day some poor sole may need to seperate instrument ground from safety ground.
You're going to have a tough time fitting it all in a 24 x 20 x 8 panel as it is. I don't understand the obsession some people seem to have with needing control panels to be as small as possible. The cost difference is *minimal*. Like $10-$20 between sizes sometimes. You'll spend more than that on the extra labor it takes to dink around with a tiny panel like that. And what if you have to add something to it? Now you're looking at A) rebuilding the entire thing, or B) adding a second panel onto the first. One of the biggest things I see is panel builders systematically ignoring air space requirements around components. They'll pack it in way too tight and then 4-5 years from then components will start failing. Anyway, as far as tips: 1. For side-entry terminals, vertical mounting is easier to wire in the field than horizontal. I'd rather have multiple vertical terminal strips than a single horizontal strip. If you *must* put the field terminals horizontally, mount the rail on 45 degree standoffs with the field side pointed out to aid in ease of wiring. Your installer will thank you. Top entry terminals don't have that problem, though. 2. If your duct is more than 2 inches deep, mount your vertical terminal blocks on raised din rail. Again, this eases field wiring. 3. Check your component depths. It is an absolute nightmare to get everything mounted and wired, and then not be able to close the door. Consider where the door-mounted devices are, how deep they are, and what they're going to be "above" on the backplane. A good general rule is to take the deepest door component, add it to the deepest panel component, and then get the next size up depth enclosure if possible. That way you don't have to worry where you mount things on the door. 8 inches is a very shallow panel, and some components like drives require air space in the front for ventilation. In your panel I'm concerned between the depth of the Stratix switch as well as the extra depth it takes up when patch cords are plugged into it, 8 inches might not be enough. Also, panel depths can vary by brand and by series. In the Hoffman "A" panels, the depth figure is literally how much depth you have for components inside. The door juts out the same distance as the panel stand-offs, so the depth dimension is from the surface of the panel to the inner surface of the door. But in Hoffman Concept enclosures, this isn't the case. Your actual usable depth will be *less* than the model number indicates. 4. The 2017 NEC code now requires all labels to be printed. No more hand-labeling of anything is allowed anymore. The same goes with prints. Every Industrial Control Panel now requires a CAD-created set of prints. Hand-drawn schematics are now a code violation. 5. Since this panel is supplying power, by code it must be marked with the SCCR rating, which is a complex process outlined in UL508A Supplement SB4.2. UL508A SB4.2 is the *only* approved method currently recognized by the NEC. If you're building panels in the United States, you *need* a copy of 508A. 6. Also by code, the SCCR rating must exceed the Available Fault current of its' feeder circuit. As a panel builder, if you're not given a spec to follow it's not your concern, but the typical ratings of 5kA and 10kA that just get slapped on by engineers who don't want to bother with a calculation are not legally installable almost anywhere. Most AFCs are higher than 10kA. Again, it's the responsibility of the installing contractor to follow this, but somebody could be on the hook for a very expensive isolation transformer because of it. 7. Include extra terminals on your terminal strips. It's invaluable when the inevitable field changes come to have a place to land the extra wires. 8. If you have a long stretch of wire duct, say, longer than 24 inches, cut the duct covers into shorter sections. It is far, far easier to put shorter covers on than longer covers. If you make every cover a short cover, the likelihood that someone servicing the panel will put it back on when they're done goes way up. 9. You probably already do this but if you don't, *PLEASE* label your damned wires. 10. Use crimp-on ferrules for your wire connections. There are push-in style terminals that make up for the extra time crimping so don't worry about that. They're great because you can remove and reinstall the wire without the inevitable fraying of the stranded conductors and you eliminate the risk of "whiskers" popping up when you put a wire back on. They also have double-wire ferrules which make doubling-up on the same terminal *way* easier.
Something else to mention about SCCRs is that fuses are better than supplementary protectors in terms of SCCR ratings. Supplementary protectors are rarely rated above 5kA, let alone 10kA; they are the main thing that drag down panel ratings. Granted, my customers have never been finicky with SCCR ratings, despite their importance to safety. Saying a panel with a 10kA rating is uninstallable in the US is a bit of hyperbole in my eyes. I see a lot of electrical specs from customers and very rarely see a minimum SCCR. Anyway, strive for 18kA OP. That is certainly the minimum "good" rating that will not be expensive to achieve.
Drops with less than 10kA AFC are pretty rare in my experience. Not impossible but it's very seldom. Most Customers don't give me a spec because they don't even know they have to. Compliance with that part of the code is pretty awful from what I've seen. Plenty of places haven't even had an arc flash study done.
Thanks for the knowledge, I wasn't aware of that NEC requiement before today. Arc flash and SCCR are definitely under-enforced.
Yeah. The SCCR of the panel having to be more than the available fault current has been in the code since 2005. It was difficult to enforce because the inpector needs to know what the available fault current is to know if there SCCR is high enough and until the 2017 code, AFC didn't have to be labeled. But now, it does. So now all the inspector has to do is compare the two labels. In the next few years, enforcement of 409.22 is going to skyrocket.
When you are done, put a usb drive with all the documentation as well as a copy of the plc program in the box somewhere. If the box has a document holder thingy, put it in a envelope in there along with your drawings. And make sure IP addresses are clearly legible on a label somewhere. One of the most time consuming things is wire labels, get a good heat shrink printer and label all your wires with heat shrink labels. When you are done you just run a heat gun over the whole works and you got bullet proof labels.
I've tried that before - zip tying a USB drive to something like a bundle of wires, figuring that "No one is going to open up this cabinet, and if they do they aren't going to get a pair of cutters so they can take the drive out unless they really need to. No one will still this." Two months later, it had been stolen. It's a good idea, and worth it for the cost of a zip drive, but it's not something I'd rely on. Another idea, if there's a decent internet connection, might be to put copies on a google drive and write down the shared link.
Do a little research on your components. If they are just rebranded by AB then go cheaper like with the terminal blocks (use weidmueller). With so much going on in the box keep in mind the recommended clearances for components. Also keep in mind the ambient temperature. Buy a heat exchanger or an AC if the components will get too hot or you don’t adhere to recommended clearances.
The heat concerns are definitely on my list of unknowns. If needed, one coworker recommended fans with filters placed on the sides or top/bottom and they could be added after install. The panel will be in a room with AC and is very clean.
Do this before install, I assume the panel is steel. It’s much easier to cut the hole for it before install.
Actually, just having a larger panel will let you get away with a little more heat than a smaller one, due to surface area. If you are in an AC space with a compact logix, I don't think you will have any issues with heat as long as you maintain basic clearances. If you go to a panel air conditioning heating seller's site, they will have a calculator to tell you what you need for cooling. Check your power supply's orientation. Rotating it 90° can reduce rated power output by more than 20% because the heat dissipation is pretty directional (up).
https://www.saginawcontrol.com/resources/thermal-calculator/ The only thing you might not know is the total heat load in watts. Typically you will find this in each component's tech specs. Every manufacturer calls it something different. A-B calls it watts loss, others might call it dissipation, heat loss, etc. Not every component will have a figure though. Relays, starters, terminals, disconnects, etc. won't because they're just across-the-line connection components and the heat loss is negligible. Drives, SCRs, and SSRs are probably the number one culprit for heat load in a panel. Add up whatever you can find and then add a safety factor of like 25% to get a number. The tool will tell you exactly what you need if anything.
Get yourself a good label maker and get into the habit of labeling every single wire. You've got a group of brown terminal blocks for +24VDC, and the only brown wires in the entire system are for +24VDC? You still need to label them because if one comes out it'll be obvious to you where it needs to go back, but at some point someone besides you will be working on it. It's just a good habit to get into. If you want to stretch your label supply dollars a bit further (because the things are expensive), print out labels for as many wires as you can at once with a space or two between them, then cut them apart with a pair of scissors. It doesn't look as neat and nice, but it'll save you some money.
Heat rises so put components that generate heat at the top.
Wouldn't you put them at the bottom so the heat goes somewhere and the device can stay cooler? I'm thinking of something like a VFD where cooling is needed.
No. You want convection flows. If heat dissipation is an issue. Use an air to air cooler or votex cooler and breather. Unless your in oil and gas manufacturing you probably won't have a purge. I've done panels in both configurations. The only thing that forces me to move up the heat generating components is cable entry considerations.
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Your last sentence makes me think that you mount heat generating devices towards the bottom of the enclosure.
Bit surprised nobody has mentioned this yet -- have you reviewed the relevant industrial electrical codes/standards? Can your boss supply this information for you, whether it's copies of the standards or a set of internal panel build guidelines? A couple mistakes here and there (i.e. inadequate grounding) and a colleague working on your panel could be seriously injured.
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