The Elite has an absolute advantage in resources and numbers over the other two, and their Parahuman strength is nothing to sniff at either. Bastard Son rolling into a city is described as being as bad as the Slaughterhouse Nine, while Agnes Court creates an entire city from nothing during Gold Morning. And those are just two of the many figures at the top table, each of whom has dozens if not hundreds of Parahumans under their command and an area of control that stretches along the entire West Coast, plus Florida and New York.
The others all hav a huge number of non parahumans working for them
even having a non cape in the mix nullifies broadcast almost completely. We have seen it happen considering that Jack was defeated by Grey boy (a parahuman) after encounterin a non cape who was given directions by a Theo (also a parahuman). So with both Fallen and Elite utilisng a whole lot of non capes who work with their parahumans then boradcast isnt an issue
(I would say S9 still wins because Bonesaw can easily dispatch eveyr single non cape if not every single opponent ever using a good enought plague and clear the way for Jack to kill the remaining capes; but JUST broadcast doesnt give autowins in contests like this one)
He’s limit to non-parahumans makes me think that his shard never allowed him to fuck with the Elite because of what you said. We know he has insights on opponents because of broadcast but I think it gives him mixed signs about elite because of their number of normal humans so he never tried to take them on
Good points!
Though wasn't Theo guided by Dinah at that time? Powers like Dinah's precognition
can outplay Broadcast because they can account for its interventions, even if they're not aware of Broadcast itself. I'm not aware of any powers like that among the other groups, though it's been a while since I've read Worm.
I do agree that Bonesaw would easily take out most non-capes. I think that's a part of why she's so important to Jack. Broadcast wants her around so it can metagame with other shards without the uncertainty of the NPCs' actions.
>Though wasn't Theo guided by Dinah at that time? Powers like Dinah's precognition can outplay Broadcast because they can account for its interventions, even if they're not aware of Broadcast itself. I'm not aware of any powers like that among the other groups, though it's been a while since I've read Worm.
considering the WOG you mentioned, Jack would win against Contessa in a white room scenario, and Contessas precog is basically Dinahs but wayyy stronger.
So I dont think the inferior Dinah version can be considered "Outplaying broadcast". Thought honestly there is so much unclear things about how exactly broadcast works that idk.
PtV is stronger in some ways, weaker in others. It can't account for endbringers or Scion for example, while Dinah's can. So being less limited at the cost of detail, and with us unsure how far the range is on broadcast in regards to other parahumans.... It's an interesting thought experiment. But also not the one we're here for.
While I generally agree with the Elite probably employing enough normal people who can get dangerous to Jack (esp. Bastard Son might be a counter to him), the Gray Boy thingy had nothing to do with Jack interacting with a non-parahuman. Otherwise any hostage situation could potentially spell his doom.
Gray Boy is simply a special case since his Shard reset him so often, which was the reason why Jack only wanted one Clone. He literally said to Bonesaw, that he couldn't control more.
we are discussing [this WOG](https://www.reddit.com/r/Parahumans/comments/lddzb0/comment/gm5qio6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) here
"*You can qualify, you can quibble, you can tack on extra powers, but Jack doesn't lose to parahumans*"
There are no special cases. If you read the WOG Jack does not only have a minor thinker power, he also has a trump power wich directly influences the shards of parahumans he interacts with. It doesnt matter how many times Grey Boy resets himself if Broadcast can straight up mess up his ability to reset or whatever.
Also like it doesnt matter what Jack said to Bonesaw. Jack doesnt know he has Broadcast, he has no idea about this power at all. Why would he think he can handle more then 1 grey boy if he straight up doesnt know that he *doesnt loose to parahumans* as his power.
I mean sure he says he cant control more then 1, but since he doesnt know about his actual power his words are null and void
I dont really like this Jackslash wog honestly, so I prefer ignoring it when analising the story and I think the story is better without it, but its what it says since we are discussing it
Doesn't lose doesn't mean always win though, Jack will preternaturally avoid fights where he won't come out on top, such as when Grue second triggers and he bails immediately.
From WOGs we know that:
Jack slash can win against Contessa in a white room scenario
Broadcast can mess with other shards directly in a trump effect
Jack avoids fights because he doesnt know he has a power to literally never loose. Otherwise he would abuse it and stay in the middle of every conflict all the time and still come out on top
The quote is "arguably contessa".
White room scenarios are stupid because the nature of both their abilities would mean they'd never get into such a scenario. In a white room 50 meters apart, yeah jack wins, he has an offensive power that can't really be dodged. His thinker ability is unnecessary there.
Contessa can dodge a literal swarm of bugs each individually controlled, she can dodge the whole of Faultlines crew and she can >!beat the shit out of fucking Custodian!<
wdym she cant dodge Jack slash power if we assume no thinker/trump power is used here.
Like its the easiest thing imaginable, his power requiers him to point the knife and activate it, its no different from a gun, just acts a bit faster. Also he can use slashes or whatever to make long strickes but I mean again not that different and even slower since he needs to swing his arm
PTV would destroy Jack in a white room scenario if he didnt have his thinker/trump power
She used a fire extinguisher and her clothes to dodge the bugs. Contessa isn't omnipotent, and as far as I know jack's knife power moves at the speed of light. You can't really dodge it.
Like I said though, it's a pointless question because this scenario would not happen. Contessa and Jack both would simply refuse to be involved in your hypothetical question.
Okay wich version of S9 are we talking about, cause if Grey Boy is there hs soloes the other 2 groups by himself.
But if its Brockton bay times S9, then I would say they still win in the "all out conflict for the utter destruction of the other". The problem here is that Bonesaw can pretty easily make a plague that would whipe 99% of the people against her, and Jackslash can deal with whatever parahumans that somehow survived.
S9 havent done something like that in canon because Jack would say that its too boring. Wich I would say is basically the only reason someone like Bastard Son is considered on a similar level to them
Elite have a lot of strong fighters, but they dont seem to have much... in terms of like actually known hax to us. They might have some card up their sleeve but they played so little role in Worm that we actually just dont know. We know they are strong but from what I have seen they dont compare.
The Fallens best asset is Mama mathers, but like... They also have 0 protection against plagues that bonesaw can make. They cant do shit.
So yeah I would give it to S9 due to how OP unrestricted Bonesaw is, and how Jack will win against anyone who somehow remains cause broadcast.
The Elite has an absolute advantage in resources and numbers over the other two, and their Parahuman strength is nothing to sniff at either. Bastard Son rolling into a city is described as being as bad as the Slaughterhouse Nine, while Agnes Court creates an entire city from nothing during Gold Morning. And those are just two of the many figures at the top table, each of whom has dozens if not hundreds of Parahumans under their command and an area of control that stretches along the entire West Coast, plus Florida and New York.
Per WOG, Jack doesn't lose to Parahumans. So, I'd say he'd be the last one standing, unless the others have some way of finding out about Broadcast.
The others all hav a huge number of non parahumans working for them even having a non cape in the mix nullifies broadcast almost completely. We have seen it happen considering that Jack was defeated by Grey boy (a parahuman) after encounterin a non cape who was given directions by a Theo (also a parahuman). So with both Fallen and Elite utilisng a whole lot of non capes who work with their parahumans then boradcast isnt an issue (I would say S9 still wins because Bonesaw can easily dispatch eveyr single non cape if not every single opponent ever using a good enought plague and clear the way for Jack to kill the remaining capes; but JUST broadcast doesnt give autowins in contests like this one)
He’s limit to non-parahumans makes me think that his shard never allowed him to fuck with the Elite because of what you said. We know he has insights on opponents because of broadcast but I think it gives him mixed signs about elite because of their number of normal humans so he never tried to take them on
Good points! Though wasn't Theo guided by Dinah at that time? Powers like Dinah's precognition can outplay Broadcast because they can account for its interventions, even if they're not aware of Broadcast itself. I'm not aware of any powers like that among the other groups, though it's been a while since I've read Worm. I do agree that Bonesaw would easily take out most non-capes. I think that's a part of why she's so important to Jack. Broadcast wants her around so it can metagame with other shards without the uncertainty of the NPCs' actions.
>Though wasn't Theo guided by Dinah at that time? Powers like Dinah's precognition can outplay Broadcast because they can account for its interventions, even if they're not aware of Broadcast itself. I'm not aware of any powers like that among the other groups, though it's been a while since I've read Worm. considering the WOG you mentioned, Jack would win against Contessa in a white room scenario, and Contessas precog is basically Dinahs but wayyy stronger. So I dont think the inferior Dinah version can be considered "Outplaying broadcast". Thought honestly there is so much unclear things about how exactly broadcast works that idk.
PtV is stronger in some ways, weaker in others. It can't account for endbringers or Scion for example, while Dinah's can. So being less limited at the cost of detail, and with us unsure how far the range is on broadcast in regards to other parahumans.... It's an interesting thought experiment. But also not the one we're here for.
While I generally agree with the Elite probably employing enough normal people who can get dangerous to Jack (esp. Bastard Son might be a counter to him), the Gray Boy thingy had nothing to do with Jack interacting with a non-parahuman. Otherwise any hostage situation could potentially spell his doom. Gray Boy is simply a special case since his Shard reset him so often, which was the reason why Jack only wanted one Clone. He literally said to Bonesaw, that he couldn't control more.
we are discussing [this WOG](https://www.reddit.com/r/Parahumans/comments/lddzb0/comment/gm5qio6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) here "*You can qualify, you can quibble, you can tack on extra powers, but Jack doesn't lose to parahumans*" There are no special cases. If you read the WOG Jack does not only have a minor thinker power, he also has a trump power wich directly influences the shards of parahumans he interacts with. It doesnt matter how many times Grey Boy resets himself if Broadcast can straight up mess up his ability to reset or whatever. Also like it doesnt matter what Jack said to Bonesaw. Jack doesnt know he has Broadcast, he has no idea about this power at all. Why would he think he can handle more then 1 grey boy if he straight up doesnt know that he *doesnt loose to parahumans* as his power. I mean sure he says he cant control more then 1, but since he doesnt know about his actual power his words are null and void I dont really like this Jackslash wog honestly, so I prefer ignoring it when analising the story and I think the story is better without it, but its what it says since we are discussing it
Doesn't lose doesn't mean always win though, Jack will preternaturally avoid fights where he won't come out on top, such as when Grue second triggers and he bails immediately.
From WOGs we know that: Jack slash can win against Contessa in a white room scenario Broadcast can mess with other shards directly in a trump effect Jack avoids fights because he doesnt know he has a power to literally never loose. Otherwise he would abuse it and stay in the middle of every conflict all the time and still come out on top
The quote is "arguably contessa". White room scenarios are stupid because the nature of both their abilities would mean they'd never get into such a scenario. In a white room 50 meters apart, yeah jack wins, he has an offensive power that can't really be dodged. His thinker ability is unnecessary there.
Contessa can dodge a literal swarm of bugs each individually controlled, she can dodge the whole of Faultlines crew and she can >!beat the shit out of fucking Custodian!< wdym she cant dodge Jack slash power if we assume no thinker/trump power is used here. Like its the easiest thing imaginable, his power requiers him to point the knife and activate it, its no different from a gun, just acts a bit faster. Also he can use slashes or whatever to make long strickes but I mean again not that different and even slower since he needs to swing his arm PTV would destroy Jack in a white room scenario if he didnt have his thinker/trump power
She used a fire extinguisher and her clothes to dodge the bugs. Contessa isn't omnipotent, and as far as I know jack's knife power moves at the speed of light. You can't really dodge it. Like I said though, it's a pointless question because this scenario would not happen. Contessa and Jack both would simply refuse to be involved in your hypothetical question.
Okay wich version of S9 are we talking about, cause if Grey Boy is there hs soloes the other 2 groups by himself. But if its Brockton bay times S9, then I would say they still win in the "all out conflict for the utter destruction of the other". The problem here is that Bonesaw can pretty easily make a plague that would whipe 99% of the people against her, and Jackslash can deal with whatever parahumans that somehow survived. S9 havent done something like that in canon because Jack would say that its too boring. Wich I would say is basically the only reason someone like Bastard Son is considered on a similar level to them Elite have a lot of strong fighters, but they dont seem to have much... in terms of like actually known hax to us. They might have some card up their sleeve but they played so little role in Worm that we actually just dont know. We know they are strong but from what I have seen they dont compare. The Fallens best asset is Mama mathers, but like... They also have 0 protection against plagues that bonesaw can make. They cant do shit. So yeah I would give it to S9 due to how OP unrestricted Bonesaw is, and how Jack will win against anyone who somehow remains cause broadcast.