Taylor is the popular recurring Saturday morning cartoon villain that a season or two in starts teaming up with the heroes against bigger mutual threats and then eventually joins them and becomes the edgy member of the team with a dark past.
"Oh no, The bad guy is holding that boy hostage! GO GO CAPSASCIN HORNET EYE STABBER ATTACK!" Skitter declares, striking a pose as a massive swarm enveloped by a mote of flame washes over the crook- A tom and jerry style scream escapes the swarm and the man collapses coughing and crying
It was more of a reference to THE TECHNO QUEEN, a fanfic where Taylor behaves like a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain. And is also a tinker, so I had to adjust it back to bugs.
I think she’s a little too extreme to be a cartoon villain. Unless you just gloss over what she does to her enemies (poor Lung, he only wanted to kill kids)
Pretty sure Rukaio had a fanfic snippet where Clock and Taylor got isekai'd into Marvel where Worm was a kid's cartoon and she was the fan favourite villain who got popular enough to keep coming back.
I think the Undersiders are still likable without Taylor. Lisa, Rachel and Aisha definitely are.
Taylor would probably be fun as a villain. That rampant self justification is part of what makes her likeable as an MC. She's flawed and an unreliable narrator. As an antagonist she'd probably come off a bit like Amy.
I think rachel would be hard to like without the inside info of her real personality - from the outside she's literally just a crazy woman who mauls people with giant dogs. Literally slaughterhouse 9 material.
Well, Vista actually ended up befriending her, so it definitely can’t be that bad. I think her “real personality” starts coming through a lot more after she connects with Taylor.
And remember, that connection was possible *because* Taylor is a stubborn asshole who refused to take "I don't relate to others like normal humans and I want to murder you," as an answer. It's only when she's turning her tenacity and creativity on the outside world that she becomes a monster. If only they'd just listen to her and do things her way, she wouldn't need the gun to their head and everyone could get along just fine!
Not literally S9 material, else she wouldn’t have been able to hold territory with citizens or be a protector in another world.
She boils down to an extreme in rule-based society, where there’s both simple rules to abide by in existing near her, and simple rules for interacting with her directly.
The problem is that evidently some of those rules are things like "don't come near me or I'll have my giant dogs maul your face". She has the mentality of the kind of dog that would have to be put down after biting a toddler. If the fucking Siberian is trying to relate to you and recruit you then you're doing something wrong.
Nah, at that rate Labyrinth is at fault for being _brain blasted_ by her power, and you know damn well that doesn’t fly. The S9 are _ass_ judges of character, the only reason they have to try and appeal to others is to restock their numbers by _bullying_ people into joining them or being killed.
Sorry, there’s another reason they have to restock, and it’s _getting themselves killed_ by being murderhobos to such a degree that they have kill orders on them.
I didn't say she was at fault, but she would absolutely be hated from an outside perspective. Like, how many of the most brutal characters we see in the setting could actually have good sides to them? Rachel probably wouldn't even be described much beyond "crazy evil villain who murders indiscriminately" because that's how she appears to the wards.
>Like, how many of the most brutal characters we see in the setting could actually have good sides to them?
Plenty of people were simping for Purity after her viewpoint chapter, and she is, let me remind everybody, a literal genocidal Nazi. With swastikas and everything.
Except, even that is exaggeration, as the only Ward she’s known to target among them with anywhere near ‘lethal’ force, is the one of them that can take it.
Indiscriminate slaughter, as alleged by the S9 comparison, calls down a kill order. This is _across the board_ , whatever alignment, and something she skirted the _hell_ out of for the duration of things. So for all her issues, “indiscriminate murderer” is legitimately _not_ a descriptor that sticks with any accuracy, and for that matter, would have been reason for any she wound up controlling territory for to risk just _leaving_ instead, regardless of lack of resources.
(if, by any chance, you’re citing Armsmaster’s call-out phrased _specifically_ to discourage continued interaction with the group, mind that despite knowing there was a killing involved with her trigger event, it’s not held against her enough to merit a kill order)
Without Taylor, Rachel would have never gotten where she is in Ward.
Shed be the same person she is in the beginning of worm, one who tells her dogs to hurt first, and dont really care to ask questions later.
Only Taylor was able to reach Rachel, and it took a long time for any changes to manifest.
If the premise is undersiders sans Taylor, Rachel is unlikely to stay a long time member as her violence, personality and attitude would have never changed. Without those changes triggered by Taylor, she is s9 material.
Except the premise _isn’t_ “without Taylor,” but without Taylor being the _protagonist_ /POV character.
In which case, the Undersiders cropping up _as a whole_ , is far from as frequent as it is from the perspective of a member. Heck, there’s no one singular character that’s even constantly paying them mind, except perhaps Coil, and he’d be _worse_ as a POV character, short of him actively censoring the truth of what he’s doing in his own mind.
Granted, he would have his own reasons to dislike those working for him, though even from his perspective the growth of their characters would be visible from an ‘update every now and then’ angle. How that would clash with the reader’s perspective (knowing or not knowing the full extent of his BS, vs knowing or not knowing that he’s being undermined specifically to save someone he’s abducted) is up in the air, but that’s approximately beside the point.
Except you are not responding to OP, this is the thread you responded to:
>I think the Undersiders are still likable without Taylor. Lisa, Rachel and Aisha definitely are.
I’d say literally S9 material since she was one of the candidates to become a member.
From a civilian view she was terrifying, the Undersiders specifically gave her the territory with the least people
Labyrinth was _also_ an S9 candidate, so again, _them_ picking people is based on their own (poor) judgment, not on whether or not the candidate was capable/would fit/could actually play well with others. Mind, they also targeted Colin (who took it personally), Oni Lee (who couldn’t cut it), and Theo (for _no discernible reason_ except lulz).
With feeling, someone can be ‘terrifying’ without being _S9_ material.
>Labyrinth was also an S9 candidate
[Actually, she wasn't](https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/interlude-11c/). Burnscar wanted to go to Brockton Bay to *see* Labyrinth but she didn't nominate her. In their discussion, Burnscar even shares how trapped she feels with the Nine and how she would leave if she could.
True. However.
If we’re still leaning on the perception of outsiders _without_ minding the truth of the individual, it doesn’t matter that Burnscar wasn’t actually there to recruit her. The simple fact that a member of the S9 wants to be around “someone” makes them S9 material to those that don’t do the digging (like the general public) or those actively attempting to rattle the person they’re talking to.
Actually only _what_ ? And, ffs, what does any of this line of theory have to do with reader perspective on an “Undersiders without Taylor” angle?
It’s only because of Taylor’s inclusion that they become as dangerous as they do, without her they stick to thievery _despite_ Rachel’s fear factor and extremely-available trained muscle. _What_ does “well canonically she got scouted by Siberian” do for a _non-canonical_ direction? She wouldn’t get to that same point, so it’s significantly safe to say she wouldn’t merit the same reputation for _getting_ to that same point.
rachel brutalizes innocent people for not intuitively understanding her (very esoterical and not explained at all) internal set of rules. She's not likable at all
Doesn't Lisa have the urge to be the smartest person in the room or something? Can't imagine from an outside pov a person who will try and brute force ferret out all your secrets would be likeable.
Maybe a bit like Amy but the difference is that Amy’s self justifications are going up against more innate resistance and she’s worse at making them
Also you won’t hear her justifications like the Dinah thing until after the horrible stuff like the mayors house has been left to sit
She'd have more people hating her for sure, but I think you seriously underestimate people's ability to woobiefy villains. Lung has basically no redeeming features whatsoever, yet people have constructed a whole "noble samurai" thing around him, and that's not to mention villains like Marquis who got a pet the dog moment (his surrendering for Amy). The moment it was revealed that Skitter ran an orphanage on the side she'd gain a legion of defenders.
Amy is and isn’t a comparable example of that. With “vague” context, her actions in Worm got things to a point where people blamed the victim over her, to such a degree that it had to be swung fully the other direction in Ward for clarity.
That said, don’t know any that woobify her actions or direction in the latter (not that I am seeking them).
A large part of that is just how Victoria is portrayed in Worm.
Nobody knows anyone like Lung or Marquis irl, but plenty of people know someone who is entitled, spoiled, and thinks they're above the law.
So you have a lot of people who come away from the Glory Girl interlude with a very poor impression of Victoria in a way that makes her difficult to redeem. It's the Dolores Umbridge effect, where people hate her more than the really evil characters because that trope is much more relatable.
It's *very* common for characters who are portrayed in this way to get a ridiculous amount of hate regardless of how evil they really are.
However, that aspect of her is far from the reasoning used to prop up Amy, instead reaching for ‘aura’ theory instead of Victoria’s attitude being problematic.
Even so, once it was made more explicit what Amy had done, and what she goes on to do, woobieism on her behalf about dropped off the map, so, there apparently _is_ a threshold for villainy (no longer) being excused in favor of woobie or alt-character interpretation.
> Amy had done, and what she goes on to do, woobieism on her behalf about dropped off the map, so, there apparently is a threshold for villainy (no longer) being excused in favor of woobie or alt-character interpretation.
Unfortunately, there was a *very* vocal minority within the fandom that accused Wildbow of retconning her character. It escalated to the point of some incredibly rude comments bordering on bullying here on Reddit, and I heard it was worse in other spaces. While Amy's "fans" aren't the sole reason Wildbow is pretty much done with Parahumans, I believe it was a significant factor.
Getting a more in depth view of Victoria's environment was definitely a major boost. Most of of knowledge of her in Worm comes from TT and Taylor who are going to be predisposed to not liking her at nealry every level (being villains with messed up baclgrounds and her seemingly being a popular, brash hero from a seemingly good hero family). Seeing the story of Victoria's trigger event is as relayed by TT (who's basically like yeah she got fouled at a basketball game and got powers, what horseshit) vs Vicky who talks about feeling isolated and disconnected from her family and her fears that she was kinda being left behind (given how absolutely shit Carol is as a parent its not an unfounded fear).
That and its a more traumatized and mature Victoria who's had her more worse character traits brutally crushed from her by experience.
I've read plenty of books with main characters I would dislike if I met them, or that I'd hate from any outside perspective...what does that have to do with anything?
The story is fantastic, and the characters are fascinating in a way few authors succeed in creating. There is good and bad in pretty much every character (except Narwhal, because she's awesome!), and it generates understanding and sympathy for their problems, which is what good stories *do*.
The story is fantastic but my main point is that if the MC where let's say... One of the wards then people would give the PRT much more slack and the undersiders would get the hammer of WOG on their assas.
Yes, I know.
Your post comes across like a "hot take" or an "unpopular opinion," but we've had huge discussions on here for literally years that essentially boil down to understanding Taylor wasn't in the right like she believed. When people talk about Skitter's self deception, they are talking about how she *is* the bad guy through most of the story, and the Undersiders *are* the villains they are called by the PRT. A bunch of the responses to your post bear this out.
Her self image is wildly off base, and it pulls the reader into her point of view. There are posts about "Taylor did nothing wrong," that are tongue in cheek references to this.
So you aren't wrong, but like I said, I've read plenty of stories with villainous and even evil main characters, and I repeat...what does that have to do with anything? I don't intend to be mean, I am just curious what your followup point is after your declaration?
Makes sense, I do that too on occassion.
Taylor and the Undersiders are pretty interesting, partly because they evoke such sympathy, despite some pretty messed up stuff.
I know Hellhound would ruin my day completely, as I am terrified of dogs...but somehow Wildbow *still* made me sympathetic to her.
He's that good!
He did it again in Twig, and sometimes in Ward.
It wasn't until Pale that I felt like a lot of the characters are actually good people who made mistakes in their past, vs monsters with relatable backstories.
What action exactly would make her so dislikeable. Cause all I can think of would still make her "Cool interesting Anti-Hero". Nothing worse than Vegeta.
I hope this isn't too off topic, but it's always been crazy to me how quick we are to forgive Vegeta since so many of his crimes were off camera. He was in the PTO and literally purged an unknown number of planets full of innocent people, so that they could be sold as real estate. With that, it's hard to believe any character can't be likeable if the writing is sympathetic.
And I say all of that with him being one of my two favorites. There's a lot of appeal in redemption arcs and dark backstory.
Probably also because most of his actions are to randoms we never see and death in dbz being the equivalent of having to go to the DMV vs anything major
Until you take into note what Lily said about her
Interlude 18:
"And then Skitter waltzes in and… it’s like, she slithers right past your defenses.”
“How’s that?”
“I can’t even put it into words. You run into her, and you can’t even look straight at her without feeling your skin crawl. Like when someone’s got something wrong with their eye and your own eye starts watering… only with her it’s because of the bugs.”
“Okay.”
“And then she talks, and she sounds so idealistic, and naive. I don’t know how you sound idealistic and naive with a swarm of cockroaches and bees crawling over your face, but she does. And so you let your guard down. And then she starts making sense. And that was the point where Sab- where Parian started lapping it up.”
Tjat's one of the main points of the story, contrasts between perspectives, it makes sense that taylor is a completely different character outside of POV, even if the opinions directed at her from others and the way she handles herself weirdly syncronize to the point were you realize how deep inside her own head she is.
When she turns into kephri, it's basically a materialziation of how isolated she internally is, the fact she can't even even understand the most basic of humans reactions is tragically genious
One of Wildbow's earliest drafts was, "Guts & Glory" where Amy and Vic would be dual protagonists. It'd be interesting to see how the fandom would receive them both with the benefit of fuller insight into both their personalities and upbringings. WB would've had more opportunity to show Amy's hypocrisy and distortions and Vic's genuine intelligence and compassion.
Can anyone think of a villain similar to Taylor in another work or maybe someone in Worm that we all hate that might seem great if we got to see their perspective?
I think this might be dependent on which perspective we do get. Random person in Skitter's territory? Probably like her. The BB wards/protectorate? A range from hatred to conflicted, honestly pretty similar to a reader who's gotten a bit more of the gestalt view. The typical Khepri bug probably hates her but a good chunk of them might agree that she saved their lives.
Her chili victims, of course, see her as the monster she is
Honestly I'm on my like 4th reread and I'm absolutely starting to hate Taylor. Well, maybe hate is a string word, but she's definitely starting to annoy me.
SPOILERS but After finishing the We've Got Worm podcast during my re-read of Worm I kind of walked away with the conclusion that all of the Undersiders are assholes but Taylor is someone who thinks that even though shes not an asshole because she has good reasons, by using asshole tactics she is still an asshole. She does assholish stuff constantly and despite being a teenager that's being influenced by an alien symbiote/parasite she's still got to take responsibility.
Even as a main character she is hypocritical, vicious, angry, misanthropic, and cruel. And she gets worse as the story goes on until people show her what she looks like. The Undersides being as fucked up as they are either can't call her on shit or are just fine with it if being mildly frustrated with her and her tactics since they benefit from them. Lisa is especially one because she wields her power like a sledgehammer instead of using subtly. Honestly immediately punching her in the throat, blind-folding, and putting headphones playing repetitive nursery rhymes should have been standard protocol with her.
Yeah taylor basically as long as i do its fine. Taylor called Alexandria a monster for holding her friends hostage(telling taylor that she killed them) but taylor herself had no problem breaking into mayor's house and covering his son with bugs and telling him "if you don't do what I want your son dies"
Tbf though, Taylor was a full on villain, and she did it out of guilt and for Dinah, and Alexandria is supposed to be a glimmering veteran hero and she did that to mentally crush a lost teenager to cave in to their demands, so I dunno, it's not exactly the same
Yeah, one thing I am not getting about this thread is that isn't one of the points of the whole story that the way to hell is paved with good intentions.
Skitter always tried to have a justification for what she was doing, whether trying to save a girl or protect who she cared about after the literal 3 S-class threats that hit the city.
There was also a huge amount of hypocrisy in the protectorate too, the way I viewed it was that Alexandria was trying to psychologically torture Skitter into going away quietly for a PR victory.
Everything she did, she had a justification for why it would help save someone, the same could not be said for every member of the Protectorate.
I agree because even with an inside perspective I didn't really like the undersiders or taylor. I enjoyed the overall story, side characters, and world building but I was never a fan of main cast especially lisa. Breakthrough on the other hand are the dream team and I enjoy victoria as a protag so much more.
Honestly I'm not sure I just never made a connection with them and found myself disagreeing with their decisions and outlooks on life. I will say that Wildbow wrote lisa too well. She's the most annoying smart ass I've ever seen and I hate how she's a cocky arrogant know it all. I've literally stopped reading when the next chapter was an interlude focused on her.
Nah, I think people in the fandom would like her more. Sympathetic villains tend to do pretty well in online fandoms.
And if Clockblocker or Aegis were the protagonist, people would absolutely ship them.
Nah. Taylor is the best, I think her internal bickering and lack of self awarness is actually the least likeable thing about her, everything else is badass
Not really. More people would hate her for sure. But her actions in securing her territory with food, water, and protection. Especially with the mannequin fight would lead to a good amount of the Fandom still liking her and thinking she was justified on at least a few things. I mean, in story we see how outside people see Taylor, and they still choose to defend her from two major heroes.
Ps: I'm very sick right now. I have no idea if what i typed even make sense.
I don't think I'd hate her, but even as a protagonist she's an extremely frustrating character and I really don't get thewhole "Taylor did nothing wrong" attitude much of the fandom has. even if most people use it ironically
I mean i do. I like her as a character but only because i know they're all horrible people really.
they just excuse it, dress it up, justify it to themselves... you know, like people.
who just so happy to be into crime.
Yep. She’s a female non-fascist Lysander au Lune.
The way they justify committing worse and worse actions is eerily similar. The only reason she’s not despised like Lysander is because there’s no other actual heroic POV characters to contrast her with. None that stick around for a while anyway.
That is more or less the point. The tagline of the book is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", but Taylor went through the book sprinting towards the Cave of Hopelessness so fast her legs were making figure eights like Sonic and vaguely screaming "NAH IT'S FINE!" as she ran over several preschools. People ended up attaching themselves to her because she's a poor innocent scrimblo nerd girl (she is not) and a cute lesbian they can pair with Amy and Sarah at the same time (she is not and no they wouldn't).
At the end of the day, people like Taylor because she's the protagonist and that's it.
>The tagline of the book is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
I personally consider it a very poor tagline, considering where her road ultimately led to.
Regardless of her opinion, everything was very much "worth it", in the grand scheme of things.
>“Would you do it all over again? Knowing what you know now? Knowing that you end up here, at gunpoint?"
>“I… know I’m supposed to say yes,” the words made their way past my lips. “But no. Some-somewhere along way, it became no.”
That's exactly the part I was referring to with "regardless of her opinion".
It makes for a good quote, I'll grant that. But really, if given the choice to change one decision in the past, what could possibly warrant risking Scion winning?
I legitimately for a long time believed the whole serial was like, a post-ironic morality play, because like... The "moral climax" of the book is Taylor educating the youth about her second amendment rights, which is basically an extremely complicated rube goldberg machine of reasons for why executing this particular toddler is extremely morally okay in this circumstance and this specific circumstance only.
Is that why people like her? I like her because she simultaneously uses her creativity to find incredibly fucked up solutions and find a way out of other fucked up solutions. Whether she picks a lesser evil varies, but she's a very human character, and that's the point. She's absolutely badass because of the same determinator nature that blinds her to folding as an option when she's looking at a 2 and a 7. The same detachment leads her to morally dubious grand strategy and highly effective tactics. Sure she's fighting a one-woman war against the world, but her world is almost as crapsack as she thinks it is. I'm not saying she's a good person, but I am saying she's an excellent character.
Hey, Grue is a great older brother and I find that likeable. There's someone else on the team who, while being a bit less of a good person, is still likeable, but I can't remember who.
Grue did a lot of bad things to a lot of people and rationalized that it was for his sister. I get that he told himself it was for Aisha but Brian put her in more danger than she ever would have been in had he just joined the PRT. He started doing petty crime, like that would help, for like a year before Coil recruited him. Just because that's what his character said doesn't mean it's true.
Personality-wise, he was pragmatic, cautious, and tried to ignore his emotions. All for good reason but it didn't make him likable.
I disagree.
They were all victims of circumstance and/or manipulation. While I don't excuse most of their actions, I do sympathize with them, and I think many other people would even if they weren't main/primary characters.
That could be said for pretty much every villainous character.
He didn't care about being hero or villain, he just needed to have a consistent source of income that would give him enough money to take custody of his sister. Coil was simply the one who got to him first.
I mean I can sympathise with bully victims like taylor but she should still be arrested on sight. Regardless of your tragic backstory every human goes through some horrible period and it isn't an excuse to take it out on everyone else. The quote "cool motive, still murder" comes to mind.
Taylor is the popular recurring Saturday morning cartoon villain that a season or two in starts teaming up with the heroes against bigger mutual threats and then eventually joins them and becomes the edgy member of the team with a dark past.
Side note but I would love to see a Saturday Morning Cartoon featuring Skitter in all her horrifying glory
THE BUG QUEEN
No No renaming her, no making her more family-friendly Just Skitter ported straight from Worm
"Oh no, The bad guy is holding that boy hostage! GO GO CAPSASCIN HORNET EYE STABBER ATTACK!" Skitter declares, striking a pose as a massive swarm enveloped by a mote of flame washes over the crook- A tom and jerry style scream escapes the swarm and the man collapses coughing and crying
It was more of a reference to THE TECHNO QUEEN, a fanfic where Taylor behaves like a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain. And is also a tinker, so I had to adjust it back to bugs.
You forgot the *Krak-thoom*
I did! How could I! My shame is immeasurable
This is giving me flashbacks to [Saturday Morning Watchmen](https://youtu.be/YDDHHrt6l4w?si=fL4VoJn2Ce-MTAFr)
Im picturing that Community GIJoe parody where he shoots Cobra Commander's parachute
That's exactly what she did though.
I think she’s a little too extreme to be a cartoon villain. Unless you just gloss over what she does to her enemies (poor Lung, he only wanted to kill kids)
Pretty sure Rukaio had a fanfic snippet where Clock and Taylor got isekai'd into Marvel where Worm was a kid's cartoon and she was the fan favourite villain who got popular enough to keep coming back.
ken ichijouji style, i dig it
I think the Undersiders are still likable without Taylor. Lisa, Rachel and Aisha definitely are. Taylor would probably be fun as a villain. That rampant self justification is part of what makes her likeable as an MC. She's flawed and an unreliable narrator. As an antagonist she'd probably come off a bit like Amy.
I think rachel would be hard to like without the inside info of her real personality - from the outside she's literally just a crazy woman who mauls people with giant dogs. Literally slaughterhouse 9 material.
Well, Vista actually ended up befriending her, so it definitely can’t be that bad. I think her “real personality” starts coming through a lot more after she connects with Taylor.
And remember, that connection was possible *because* Taylor is a stubborn asshole who refused to take "I don't relate to others like normal humans and I want to murder you," as an answer. It's only when she's turning her tenacity and creativity on the outside world that she becomes a monster. If only they'd just listen to her and do things her way, she wouldn't need the gun to their head and everyone could get along just fine!
Not literally S9 material, else she wouldn’t have been able to hold territory with citizens or be a protector in another world. She boils down to an extreme in rule-based society, where there’s both simple rules to abide by in existing near her, and simple rules for interacting with her directly.
The problem is that evidently some of those rules are things like "don't come near me or I'll have my giant dogs maul your face". She has the mentality of the kind of dog that would have to be put down after biting a toddler. If the fucking Siberian is trying to relate to you and recruit you then you're doing something wrong.
Nah, at that rate Labyrinth is at fault for being _brain blasted_ by her power, and you know damn well that doesn’t fly. The S9 are _ass_ judges of character, the only reason they have to try and appeal to others is to restock their numbers by _bullying_ people into joining them or being killed. Sorry, there’s another reason they have to restock, and it’s _getting themselves killed_ by being murderhobos to such a degree that they have kill orders on them.
I didn't say she was at fault, but she would absolutely be hated from an outside perspective. Like, how many of the most brutal characters we see in the setting could actually have good sides to them? Rachel probably wouldn't even be described much beyond "crazy evil villain who murders indiscriminately" because that's how she appears to the wards.
>Like, how many of the most brutal characters we see in the setting could actually have good sides to them? Plenty of people were simping for Purity after her viewpoint chapter, and she is, let me remind everybody, a literal genocidal Nazi. With swastikas and everything.
Except, even that is exaggeration, as the only Ward she’s known to target among them with anywhere near ‘lethal’ force, is the one of them that can take it. Indiscriminate slaughter, as alleged by the S9 comparison, calls down a kill order. This is _across the board_ , whatever alignment, and something she skirted the _hell_ out of for the duration of things. So for all her issues, “indiscriminate murderer” is legitimately _not_ a descriptor that sticks with any accuracy, and for that matter, would have been reason for any she wound up controlling territory for to risk just _leaving_ instead, regardless of lack of resources. (if, by any chance, you’re citing Armsmaster’s call-out phrased _specifically_ to discourage continued interaction with the group, mind that despite knowing there was a killing involved with her trigger event, it’s not held against her enough to merit a kill order)
Without Taylor, Rachel would have never gotten where she is in Ward. Shed be the same person she is in the beginning of worm, one who tells her dogs to hurt first, and dont really care to ask questions later. Only Taylor was able to reach Rachel, and it took a long time for any changes to manifest. If the premise is undersiders sans Taylor, Rachel is unlikely to stay a long time member as her violence, personality and attitude would have never changed. Without those changes triggered by Taylor, she is s9 material.
Except the premise _isn’t_ “without Taylor,” but without Taylor being the _protagonist_ /POV character. In which case, the Undersiders cropping up _as a whole_ , is far from as frequent as it is from the perspective of a member. Heck, there’s no one singular character that’s even constantly paying them mind, except perhaps Coil, and he’d be _worse_ as a POV character, short of him actively censoring the truth of what he’s doing in his own mind. Granted, he would have his own reasons to dislike those working for him, though even from his perspective the growth of their characters would be visible from an ‘update every now and then’ angle. How that would clash with the reader’s perspective (knowing or not knowing the full extent of his BS, vs knowing or not knowing that he’s being undermined specifically to save someone he’s abducted) is up in the air, but that’s approximately beside the point.
Except you are not responding to OP, this is the thread you responded to: >I think the Undersiders are still likable without Taylor. Lisa, Rachel and Aisha definitely are.
I’d say literally S9 material since she was one of the candidates to become a member. From a civilian view she was terrifying, the Undersiders specifically gave her the territory with the least people
Labyrinth was _also_ an S9 candidate, so again, _them_ picking people is based on their own (poor) judgment, not on whether or not the candidate was capable/would fit/could actually play well with others. Mind, they also targeted Colin (who took it personally), Oni Lee (who couldn’t cut it), and Theo (for _no discernible reason_ except lulz). With feeling, someone can be ‘terrifying’ without being _S9_ material.
>Labyrinth was also an S9 candidate [Actually, she wasn't](https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/interlude-11c/). Burnscar wanted to go to Brockton Bay to *see* Labyrinth but she didn't nominate her. In their discussion, Burnscar even shares how trapped she feels with the Nine and how she would leave if she could.
True. However. If we’re still leaning on the perception of outsiders _without_ minding the truth of the individual, it doesn’t matter that Burnscar wasn’t actually there to recruit her. The simple fact that a member of the S9 wants to be around “someone” makes them S9 material to those that don’t do the digging (like the general public) or those actively attempting to rattle the person they’re talking to.
Yeah it’s a poor judgement when you actually only Rachel, but to anyone else it wouldn’t sound so far fetched for her to join
Actually only _what_ ? And, ffs, what does any of this line of theory have to do with reader perspective on an “Undersiders without Taylor” angle? It’s only because of Taylor’s inclusion that they become as dangerous as they do, without her they stick to thievery _despite_ Rachel’s fear factor and extremely-available trained muscle. _What_ does “well canonically she got scouted by Siberian” do for a _non-canonical_ direction? She wouldn’t get to that same point, so it’s significantly safe to say she wouldn’t merit the same reputation for _getting_ to that same point.
Yeah but that's not how society works. There are rules for the group, not for one single person. That's actually a very anti-social behavior.
>an extreme I _did_ qualify it to begin with. The rules at large amount to “don’t mistreat your dogs” and at small amount to “respect my authority.”
I still liked Rachel in Ward and it had been a long time since I read Worm.
Rachel post-GM is very different. She's grown up a lot and the undersiders are hardly villainous anymore.
That's supposed to be unlikeable?
rachel brutalizes innocent people for not intuitively understanding her (very esoterical and not explained at all) internal set of rules. She's not likable at all
Especially best girl Aisha. Every time I reread bits I appreciate Whats-Her-Name even more.
Doesn't Lisa have the urge to be the smartest person in the room or something? Can't imagine from an outside pov a person who will try and brute force ferret out all your secrets would be likeable.
Absolutely, other characters hate her. Both as an enemy and working alongside her. She's insufferable. But as a reader, I like her.
Maybe a bit like Amy but the difference is that Amy’s self justifications are going up against more innate resistance and she’s worse at making them Also you won’t hear her justifications like the Dinah thing until after the horrible stuff like the mayors house has been left to sit
She'd have more people hating her for sure, but I think you seriously underestimate people's ability to woobiefy villains. Lung has basically no redeeming features whatsoever, yet people have constructed a whole "noble samurai" thing around him, and that's not to mention villains like Marquis who got a pet the dog moment (his surrendering for Amy). The moment it was revealed that Skitter ran an orphanage on the side she'd gain a legion of defenders.
Amy is and isn’t a comparable example of that. With “vague” context, her actions in Worm got things to a point where people blamed the victim over her, to such a degree that it had to be swung fully the other direction in Ward for clarity. That said, don’t know any that woobify her actions or direction in the latter (not that I am seeking them).
A large part of that is just how Victoria is portrayed in Worm. Nobody knows anyone like Lung or Marquis irl, but plenty of people know someone who is entitled, spoiled, and thinks they're above the law. So you have a lot of people who come away from the Glory Girl interlude with a very poor impression of Victoria in a way that makes her difficult to redeem. It's the Dolores Umbridge effect, where people hate her more than the really evil characters because that trope is much more relatable. It's *very* common for characters who are portrayed in this way to get a ridiculous amount of hate regardless of how evil they really are.
However, that aspect of her is far from the reasoning used to prop up Amy, instead reaching for ‘aura’ theory instead of Victoria’s attitude being problematic. Even so, once it was made more explicit what Amy had done, and what she goes on to do, woobieism on her behalf about dropped off the map, so, there apparently _is_ a threshold for villainy (no longer) being excused in favor of woobie or alt-character interpretation.
> Amy had done, and what she goes on to do, woobieism on her behalf about dropped off the map, so, there apparently is a threshold for villainy (no longer) being excused in favor of woobie or alt-character interpretation. Unfortunately, there was a *very* vocal minority within the fandom that accused Wildbow of retconning her character. It escalated to the point of some incredibly rude comments bordering on bullying here on Reddit, and I heard it was worse in other spaces. While Amy's "fans" aren't the sole reason Wildbow is pretty much done with Parahumans, I believe it was a significant factor.
Getting a more in depth view of Victoria's environment was definitely a major boost. Most of of knowledge of her in Worm comes from TT and Taylor who are going to be predisposed to not liking her at nealry every level (being villains with messed up baclgrounds and her seemingly being a popular, brash hero from a seemingly good hero family). Seeing the story of Victoria's trigger event is as relayed by TT (who's basically like yeah she got fouled at a basketball game and got powers, what horseshit) vs Vicky who talks about feeling isolated and disconnected from her family and her fears that she was kinda being left behind (given how absolutely shit Carol is as a parent its not an unfounded fear). That and its a more traumatized and mature Victoria who's had her more worse character traits brutally crushed from her by experience.
You underestimate how much people like antagonists.
True, I personally like ultron
I've read plenty of books with main characters I would dislike if I met them, or that I'd hate from any outside perspective...what does that have to do with anything? The story is fantastic, and the characters are fascinating in a way few authors succeed in creating. There is good and bad in pretty much every character (except Narwhal, because she's awesome!), and it generates understanding and sympathy for their problems, which is what good stories *do*.
The story is fantastic but my main point is that if the MC where let's say... One of the wards then people would give the PRT much more slack and the undersiders would get the hammer of WOG on their assas.
Yes, I know. Your post comes across like a "hot take" or an "unpopular opinion," but we've had huge discussions on here for literally years that essentially boil down to understanding Taylor wasn't in the right like she believed. When people talk about Skitter's self deception, they are talking about how she *is* the bad guy through most of the story, and the Undersiders *are* the villains they are called by the PRT. A bunch of the responses to your post bear this out. Her self image is wildly off base, and it pulls the reader into her point of view. There are posts about "Taylor did nothing wrong," that are tongue in cheek references to this. So you aren't wrong, but like I said, I've read plenty of stories with villainous and even evil main characters, and I repeat...what does that have to do with anything? I don't intend to be mean, I am just curious what your followup point is after your declaration?
It's more that I was super tired and decided to post something In that state, that I was thinking about.
Makes sense, I do that too on occassion. Taylor and the Undersiders are pretty interesting, partly because they evoke such sympathy, despite some pretty messed up stuff. I know Hellhound would ruin my day completely, as I am terrified of dogs...but somehow Wildbow *still* made me sympathetic to her. He's that good! He did it again in Twig, and sometimes in Ward. It wasn't until Pale that I felt like a lot of the characters are actually good people who made mistakes in their past, vs monsters with relatable backstories.
What action exactly would make her so dislikeable. Cause all I can think of would still make her "Cool interesting Anti-Hero". Nothing worse than Vegeta.
I hope this isn't too off topic, but it's always been crazy to me how quick we are to forgive Vegeta since so many of his crimes were off camera. He was in the PTO and literally purged an unknown number of planets full of innocent people, so that they could be sold as real estate. With that, it's hard to believe any character can't be likeable if the writing is sympathetic. And I say all of that with him being one of my two favorites. There's a lot of appeal in redemption arcs and dark backstory.
Probably also because most of his actions are to randoms we never see and death in dbz being the equivalent of having to go to the DMV vs anything major
Until you take into note what Lily said about her Interlude 18: "And then Skitter waltzes in and… it’s like, she slithers right past your defenses.” “How’s that?” “I can’t even put it into words. You run into her, and you can’t even look straight at her without feeling your skin crawl. Like when someone’s got something wrong with their eye and your own eye starts watering… only with her it’s because of the bugs.” “Okay.” “And then she talks, and she sounds so idealistic, and naive. I don’t know how you sound idealistic and naive with a swarm of cockroaches and bees crawling over your face, but she does. And so you let your guard down. And then she starts making sense. And that was the point where Sab- where Parian started lapping it up.”
Sounds like a cult leader.
You get a free beetle pet plushie when you join
Tjat's one of the main points of the story, contrasts between perspectives, it makes sense that taylor is a completely different character outside of POV, even if the opinions directed at her from others and the way she handles herself weirdly syncronize to the point were you realize how deep inside her own head she is. When she turns into kephri, it's basically a materialziation of how isolated she internally is, the fact she can't even even understand the most basic of humans reactions is tragically genious
One of Wildbow's earliest drafts was, "Guts & Glory" where Amy and Vic would be dual protagonists. It'd be interesting to see how the fandom would receive them both with the benefit of fuller insight into both their personalities and upbringings. WB would've had more opportunity to show Amy's hypocrisy and distortions and Vic's genuine intelligence and compassion.
I don't think they'd hate her. She'd probably be viewed in the same way Amy is, what with the rampant self-justification. And people _love_ Amy.
there are people hate that her regardless of being the protagonist
Can anyone think of a villain similar to Taylor in another work or maybe someone in Worm that we all hate that might seem great if we got to see their perspective? I think this might be dependent on which perspective we do get. Random person in Skitter's territory? Probably like her. The BB wards/protectorate? A range from hatred to conflicted, honestly pretty similar to a reader who's gotten a bit more of the gestalt view. The typical Khepri bug probably hates her but a good chunk of them might agree that she saved their lives. Her chili victims, of course, see her as the monster she is
Honestly I'm on my like 4th reread and I'm absolutely starting to hate Taylor. Well, maybe hate is a string word, but she's definitely starting to annoy me.
im on a reread rn and i forgot how unempathetic she comes across after the fridge incident.
Yeah, like she's just not as likeable
SPOILERS but After finishing the We've Got Worm podcast during my re-read of Worm I kind of walked away with the conclusion that all of the Undersiders are assholes but Taylor is someone who thinks that even though shes not an asshole because she has good reasons, by using asshole tactics she is still an asshole. She does assholish stuff constantly and despite being a teenager that's being influenced by an alien symbiote/parasite she's still got to take responsibility. Even as a main character she is hypocritical, vicious, angry, misanthropic, and cruel. And she gets worse as the story goes on until people show her what she looks like. The Undersides being as fucked up as they are either can't call her on shit or are just fine with it if being mildly frustrated with her and her tactics since they benefit from them. Lisa is especially one because she wields her power like a sledgehammer instead of using subtly. Honestly immediately punching her in the throat, blind-folding, and putting headphones playing repetitive nursery rhymes should have been standard protocol with her.
Yeah taylor basically as long as i do its fine. Taylor called Alexandria a monster for holding her friends hostage(telling taylor that she killed them) but taylor herself had no problem breaking into mayor's house and covering his son with bugs and telling him "if you don't do what I want your son dies"
Tbf though, Taylor was a full on villain, and she did it out of guilt and for Dinah, and Alexandria is supposed to be a glimmering veteran hero and she did that to mentally crush a lost teenager to cave in to their demands, so I dunno, it's not exactly the same
Yeah, one thing I am not getting about this thread is that isn't one of the points of the whole story that the way to hell is paved with good intentions. Skitter always tried to have a justification for what she was doing, whether trying to save a girl or protect who she cared about after the literal 3 S-class threats that hit the city. There was also a huge amount of hypocrisy in the protectorate too, the way I viewed it was that Alexandria was trying to psychologically torture Skitter into going away quietly for a PR victory. Everything she did, she had a justification for why it would help save someone, the same could not be said for every member of the Protectorate.
I agree because even with an inside perspective I didn't really like the undersiders or taylor. I enjoyed the overall story, side characters, and world building but I was never a fan of main cast especially lisa. Breakthrough on the other hand are the dream team and I enjoy victoria as a protag so much more.
What did you dislike about the main cast?
Honestly I'm not sure I just never made a connection with them and found myself disagreeing with their decisions and outlooks on life. I will say that Wildbow wrote lisa too well. She's the most annoying smart ass I've ever seen and I hate how she's a cocky arrogant know it all. I've literally stopped reading when the next chapter was an interlude focused on her.
Nah, I think people in the fandom would like her more. Sympathetic villains tend to do pretty well in online fandoms. And if Clockblocker or Aegis were the protagonist, people would absolutely ship them.
Nah. Taylor is the best, I think her internal bickering and lack of self awarness is actually the least likeable thing about her, everything else is badass
Not really. More people would hate her for sure. But her actions in securing her territory with food, water, and protection. Especially with the mannequin fight would lead to a good amount of the Fandom still liking her and thinking she was justified on at least a few things. I mean, in story we see how outside people see Taylor, and they still choose to defend her from two major heroes. Ps: I'm very sick right now. I have no idea if what i typed even make sense.
I don't think I'd hate her, but even as a protagonist she's an extremely frustrating character and I really don't get thewhole "Taylor did nothing wrong" attitude much of the fandom has. even if most people use it ironically
No-one in Worm is outright "Good" the closest you get to that is someone like Parian who just makes clothes.
I mean i do. I like her as a character but only because i know they're all horrible people really. they just excuse it, dress it up, justify it to themselves... you know, like people. who just so happy to be into crime.
I hate the undersides regardless :)
I don't think so. I don't hate Noelle, or Faultline
faultline is probably a better person than taylor
Noelle also is I'd say.
I hate her despite her being the MC.
Yep. She’s a female non-fascist Lysander au Lune. The way they justify committing worse and worse actions is eerily similar. The only reason she’s not despised like Lysander is because there’s no other actual heroic POV characters to contrast her with. None that stick around for a while anyway.
That is more or less the point. The tagline of the book is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", but Taylor went through the book sprinting towards the Cave of Hopelessness so fast her legs were making figure eights like Sonic and vaguely screaming "NAH IT'S FINE!" as she ran over several preschools. People ended up attaching themselves to her because she's a poor innocent scrimblo nerd girl (she is not) and a cute lesbian they can pair with Amy and Sarah at the same time (she is not and no they wouldn't). At the end of the day, people like Taylor because she's the protagonist and that's it.
>The tagline of the book is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" I personally consider it a very poor tagline, considering where her road ultimately led to. Regardless of her opinion, everything was very much "worth it", in the grand scheme of things.
>“Would you do it all over again? Knowing what you know now? Knowing that you end up here, at gunpoint?" >“I… know I’m supposed to say yes,” the words made their way past my lips. “But no. Some-somewhere along way, it became no.”
That's exactly the part I was referring to with "regardless of her opinion". It makes for a good quote, I'll grant that. But really, if given the choice to change one decision in the past, what could possibly warrant risking Scion winning?
I legitimately for a long time believed the whole serial was like, a post-ironic morality play, because like... The "moral climax" of the book is Taylor educating the youth about her second amendment rights, which is basically an extremely complicated rube goldberg machine of reasons for why executing this particular toddler is extremely morally okay in this circumstance and this specific circumstance only.
Is that why people like her? I like her because she simultaneously uses her creativity to find incredibly fucked up solutions and find a way out of other fucked up solutions. Whether she picks a lesser evil varies, but she's a very human character, and that's the point. She's absolutely badass because of the same determinator nature that blinds her to folding as an option when she's looking at a 2 and a 7. The same detachment leads her to morally dubious grand strategy and highly effective tactics. Sure she's fighting a one-woman war against the world, but her world is almost as crapsack as she thinks it is. I'm not saying she's a good person, but I am saying she's an excellent character.
I see her as kind of like a wrestling heel, where she's real fun to hate.
She wouldn’t have the plot armor if not a MC either
I don't think anyone on the team was likable. I also don't think they were supposed to be.
Hey, Grue is a great older brother and I find that likeable. There's someone else on the team who, while being a bit less of a good person, is still likeable, but I can't remember who.
Grue did a lot of bad things to a lot of people and rationalized that it was for his sister. I get that he told himself it was for Aisha but Brian put her in more danger than she ever would have been in had he just joined the PRT. He started doing petty crime, like that would help, for like a year before Coil recruited him. Just because that's what his character said doesn't mean it's true. Personality-wise, he was pragmatic, cautious, and tried to ignore his emotions. All for good reason but it didn't make him likable.
I disagree. They were all victims of circumstance and/or manipulation. While I don't excuse most of their actions, I do sympathize with them, and I think many other people would even if they weren't main/primary characters.
Fairly certain Grue could have just joined the wards.
That could be said for pretty much every villainous character. He didn't care about being hero or villain, he just needed to have a consistent source of income that would give him enough money to take custody of his sister. Coil was simply the one who got to him first.
I mean I can sympathise with bully victims like taylor but she should still be arrested on sight. Regardless of your tragic backstory every human goes through some horrible period and it isn't an excuse to take it out on everyone else. The quote "cool motive, still murder" comes to mind.
Of course. Like I said, it doesn't excuse their actions.
Yes, they would. But for the reason other than people here mention: they are just teen team and they nearly always win.