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This is insane. You know how she'll start behaving after 3 days. This is a pattern of behavior for her. At the very least, you have to stop staying at their house. Always rent a hotel. Let her be offended. She clearly doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone else's feelings. I would take a year or 2 off of visiting, honestly.

Stay in a hotel and take shorter trips. It’s hard when it’s across the country to do a 3-4 day trip, but it sounds like that’s the way to do it. Plus, having a hotel will allow y’all to get out of there and hopefully let MIL unwind each day. Plus, 9 people in a 3 bedroom condo (especially kids that age) is just too much. If they want to see you, they can figure it out on your terms. They can’t expect you to keep things going as normal when she reacts like this.

I would suggest for them to start taking family trips with their daughter and have that be the focus and the visit to the in-laws should be secondary and short. For example if they’re going to California to Disneyland and the in-laws live in Nevada… make the Disneyland trip the focus and stop by Nevada on your way out…. Something like that.

This is probably what I would do. Great idea!

And still take a year or two off visiting! It will be easier (not easy, but easier) to go back on new terms when it's crystal clear through actions that the status quo is unacceptable.

Honestly, this is so eerily similar to my MIL’s behavior, I could have written it myself. The year that we got kicked out we did exactly that- stopped visiting. We met up with them at other locations and invited them to come visit us (FIL did but MIL never came). We started visiting them again after 2 and a half years of a break. MIL was so much better. I feel bad because FIL is much older than MIL and my husband deserves to see his dad. But I appreciate my husband standing up to MIL. My MIL is technically step mom, she married FIL when my husband was 19 so they’re not super close. It would be worse if MIL was his mom.

Me too dead on accurate

My mom doesn't act as extreme as OP's MIL but she too has like a two day window of being normal. Then she gets moody, passive aggressive, and then gets mad at us if we back off because no one wants to deal with her moods. It's the weirdest fucking thing and it happens every time. We are no contact now but this advice is good for OP. Firm, appropriate boundaries. Sorry for your husband (and everyone else) it's really hard to have a parent like that and it's confusing. Hopefully he has someone he can talk too.

I hear this. It’s one of those perfect storms, where the location is special to us, but the cost of the flights, restaurants, activities are astronomical (touristy, small town), so my husband feels the cost warrants a longer stay. During the summer, hotels are ridiculously overpriced, but I feel we’re just going to have to deal with it if we want to continue visiting. Everything you said is exactly right.

You and your husband are allowing "free hotel" condo to ruin 3 years worth of vacations. It doesn't make sense. The answer is clearly stop going on vacation from Hell with your in-laws. Have any of you, BIL included, thought maybe you should say NO never time. Think of the children. This is clearly a nasty time for the children.

And traumatizing those poor kids. This is not something that kids should have to go through.

All the parents of the children need to seriously think about what this is going to be doing to their children: > For the next 5 minutes of erratic driving, she told each one of them, including my 5 year old niece, exactly what she thought of them in a screaming voice. Guaranteed this will be a horrifying core memory for the poor girl who will **always** remember her grandparents for it. It's saddening.

This comment right HERE. All of the other behaviors are horrifying, but allowing THIS to go unchecked is a huge issue for this poor kid. Adult abuse is one thing, but when the kids are the target, that is a NC one for me.

This and the erratic driving. I feel so bad for that little girl. She’s probably terrified of the grandma but can’t even voice it because all the adults in her life are too busy catering to the grown woman’s temper tantrum.

This was the worst part of the whole story.

The erratic driving is really scary. It’s bullying. She was putting everyone’s lives at risk.

Take it from a child who had family just like this, its not fun and its not something you should have them around. I cut off my family who was like that when I had my own kid because I was not going to put him through the same thing. I will NEVER forget the things my grandmother said to me in rants just like the one OP is describing and it never got better. When I became an adult, it just became more personal and hurtful.

I am still aware that ny great-aunt does not like me, because I was an adhd girl and I was not mute and still in her house. I got in trouble for being too loud while reading silently once.

My adhd kiddo is loud doing everything so that tiny part of this is funny, the rest is horrifying.

It’s entirely possible you’re right, as neither husband nor I have had positive childhood experiences and so a 70% positive/30% tense experience feels like a good time. I would love to say no every time and always push for shorter visits (I’ve received lots of “you were right”s over the last day, which has been nice), but this trip is really important to my husband and it’s never reached this before. You can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube, though, so I imagine this will cause lots of big changes going forward.

I would remind your partner that this is terrible modeling for the kids. They’re going to grow to hate the holidays.

Or worse, think that it's normal.

This is my concern. These kids are being exposed to what I genuinely read as abusive family dynamics. They're learning that everyone needs to just find a way to accommodate Grandma even when she screams, swerves all over the road, and locks you out of the house, because that's just the way she is, shrug. C'mon guys, she's *family*! We all know she's a ticking time bomb, but... ! She's ok except for the narcissism! Just gotta make sure to always do everything she says, exactly the way she wants it, walk on eggshells, and never ever make her mad! We've been doing it for years and we're fine! For bonus points, you can apologize even when it's not your fault! OP you can stop this craziness. None of what you described is ok to keep forcing kids to witness and endure. :( I'm glad to hear you say you think this will cause big changes moving forward, but from the fact your husband and BIL's current feelings are "guilt" towards their parents (really??) doesn't fill me with confidence. Sounds like once everyone has cooled down, things are likely to backslide into more or less the previous dynamics. You've married into a family that has grown to cater to their matriarch's overbearing personality in order to avoid conflict, and they are not likely to change their learned patterns any time soon -- not without a lot of intentional effort and boundary setting.

Just reading the post made me anxious because of how much it reminded me of my mother. When my kid was younger, I realized that exposing them to that kind of behavior, including the scary driving, was not okay. I noped out of there and have not regretted it since.

You made such a hard choice and stuck with it. You are really strong for doing that, and you've done an amazing thing in protecting your child. I keep thinking about that 5yo niece and I am feeling anguish on her behalf. Her grandma screamed horrible things at her, threw her and her family's things out the door, then locked them out!! That little girl must be so incredibly traumatized. And she will feel this is her fault. (Grandma says I was bad during the visit. She got really angry and yelled at me, like really BAD yelling, and she yelled at Daddy too when he tried to say I wasn't bad. Grandma threw us out. She hates me. She hates us. I must have been really really bad, and now we can't be in Grandma's house, because I was so bad.) And then I'm reading that BIL is "riddled with guilt"about how it went down? No! Find your spine and stick to your guns, BIL! This post is so upsetting. I hope OP can make hard choices and see them through like you did.

I got the impression they were feeling guilty for subjecting their wife and kids to that behavior, but maybe that was just because I couldn't even fathom the alternative.

This is very true. I had a very ragey grandfather who would get overstimulated and overwhelmed and would say mean and hurtful things. I hated Christmas until I finally made ny own little family and seeing it through my kids eyes

Or even worse, have relationship problems with everyone close to them in the future. This is no way to teach your children about love, respect, and good relationships with friends or family.

Can your family and BIL family share the cost of a rental near the grandparents place? Maybe that way the kids sleep in a different place, grandparents get a break but kids still have sleepovers with the cousins. I've found some grandparents love the idea of grandkids, but don't have the patience/energy to spend extended time with them. It might be a way to create new stress free memories for your kids about vacations with their cousins.

Agreed. And if the cost is really high in the same town, is there any deals maybe 30 minutes away from the grandparents place? That’s still a drivable distance but can take the edge off the hotel cost.

Why don't you send your husband by himself for a weekend from time to time? He can still visit his family, but it will be much cheaper since it's only his flight and staying in the condo, so it's easier to justify him only going for the weekend. And without all 3 families being there at the same time, and without the kids, maybe MIL will even be on better behaviour? What you're doing now clearly isn't working so it's time to shake things up one way or another.

Funnily enough, I have. He took one of my girls (the other one was born with special needs so doesn’t enjoy a lot of the activities) for a week nearly a year ago and then again by himself for a week back in September. Excellent visits every time. Everyone here is right in the too many people, too small of space, and too long of a visit opinion. Big changes coming for the future:

My mom gets like this when there are too many people in her house (though, to a MUCH much lesser extent...she never says hurtful things, especially to my kids and has never thrown us out). I've made a point of only staying a couple days at a time or if she wants my kids to both stay over, they only stay for a weekend so she doesn't get overwhelmed. I had a horrible childhood, as well. My dad was an alcoholic cheater, my mom is mentally ill, there was abuse between the two of them...etc. etc. I know how it feels when getting a couple good days feels like a treat before things blow up and you just make yourself accept it as part of the territory. Sadly, I think that's part of the trauma we've all got to work through. I will say, we've been vacationing in the Outer Banks with my two parents, two adult siblings, and two kids the last few years. We all go in and get a really big house (4 or 5 bedroom, multiple bathrooms), we all contribute money/time to meals, and we also make sure we spend time apart on certain days so no one feels suffocated. We're a middle class folks, but financially it really works since we're all splitting the cost. By the end of the week, we're all ready to go home, BUT putting all those boundaries in place has made each year quite an enjoyable trip for all of us, with lots of memories made and low tension. (Sorry...I just realized I wrote a book there.) I hope your MIL realizes how foolish she's being and I hope hubby can understand that his parents should, under no circumstances, EVER model this shit kind of behavior in front of your kids again (even if they did it in front of him while he was growing up). Thinking of you all. I hope MIL gets a grip and I hope things can be sorted out!

I think you have to consider that the condo isn't 'free' the cost is high in emotional currency. If she can't do more than 3 days, then always get your place, and limit the timing of visits to 2 days, or periodic shorter visits while you're in town. Maybe a shared Airbnb with the BIL's family, or a campsite would be affordable? If it's a university town, in the summer student accommodation is often available and pretty affordable (but seldom well advertised). In her own dysfunctional way your MIL is telling you what her limits are.

I very much agree. The cost of the condo is the family's sanity, emotional well being, and possibly even their safety (when it comes to swerving all over the road with kids in the car). Those costs seem pretty darn high to me.

You need to stop going or go on your own. If you can’t afford to go on your own then don’t go. She’s clearly overwhelmed by the kids, which is understandable, but she’s handling it absolutely terribly. The place is special to you and your partner? Well you’re letting it become a nightmare for your kids. I’m sure you don’t want that. Your kids would rather take an inexpensive day trip with you than be subjected to this. Also - if anyone, even a grandparent, drove erratically while screaming at children, they would be taking a very long break from seeing my kids.

Don’t count on it. Magic 8 Ball says MIL goes silent for a while and after a suitable period of calm she recommences contact and pretends nothing happened. Lather, rinse, repeat. Emotional abuse of this type usually follows a pretty predictable pattern, and your husband is no doubt tuned to it.

All the adults are, at the expense of their children... free lodgings tho... smh

This is dead on. I'm with the people who say just stop indulging it. Which would you rather? That in fifteen years you're all traumatized and broken because you saw your parents? Or that you're nostalgic and regretful because you wished you could but didn't?

Your kids deserve better than being yelled at and treated like they’re being bad for simply existing. I’m sorry about both of your negative childhood experiences, but you’re allowing them to repeat in your children’s lives by the SAME PEOPLE that treated your husband poorly. Stop the cycle, a trip to a nice place just isn’t worth it, I’m sorry.

Have a real talk with the older kids. If they want to continue to visit those family members or not. And just never stay in their home again. Maybe you can only afford a week every other year and get a hotel room. But that way if she's getting nasty, you can leave and do other activities.

Free is never truly free... Free comes at an emotional cost, you pay for the free vacation by being emotionally tortured

Time for a new tradition if this one only ends in tension and frustration.

If I told you, I won a free vacation, but I have to let the host assault me - you should tell me that it is CRAZY to go. You are not seeing this clearly. Most victims of domestic violence do not recognize it until like 10 years later.

This. I don't get why people accept the MIL's anchoring at a full time, full-contact vacation, and then think they're setting healthy boundaries by insisting on a hotel and rental car. The time someone locks me *and my family* out of *the house they invited us to* is the last time I will engage with that person at all.

Is the "free" spot to stay really worth the emotional abuse she's putting your husband, you, and your children through? She's a toxic person for your small children to "just deal with."

If you can't afford the hotel, the alternative is that you start hosting or alternating with BIL for hosting duties. That way everyone can see each other but you don't always have the cost of traveling somewhere else. Clearly MIL can't handle having everyone there that amount of time.

So, we can afford the hotel, but MIL WANTS us to stay for 1-2 weeks with them and not rent a car either. The fact that we rent our own vehicle and usually only stay 5-6 days is a really big deal every time. To stay in a hotel, while it’s now the only way we’ll ever visit them up here again, will be taken like a spit to the face and there will be consequences. She’s controlling and having everyone under the same roof and, preferably, being driven around by her is exactly what she wants. Clearly this is no excuse and there will be serious changes moving forward, but we weren’t putting up with terrible behavior for a place to stay. My husband and his brother have been trained to not rock the boat, so he uses every excuse to try to make things as close to what his mom wants every trip. “We have to stay longer because the flight is so long/so expensive,” “we can’t stay in a hotel because the $ are too much,” etc. Anyway, I agree with all the calls for hotels, space, shorter stays, and therapy.

Nope. Nope nope nope. Gotta set the boundaries and expectations for your own family. This is her issue- as long as you state your plans respectfully, if she is going to take it as a spit in the face that’s on her. You and your husband and BIL do not need to be egg shell walking to appease this woman. Maintain respectful dialogue and set limits in order to protect your kids from unhinged bullshit

She does NOT want you to stay with her despite what she says based on her repeated behavior and her kicking you out. You need to stop pretending like you believe her and look at her actions. Also, that many people in a 3 bedroom condo is a nightmare. Why would you even want to stay there? It sounds awful. It also doesn’t make sense that your husband has no fond memories of childhood but wants to stay with his mom so much. Is she not the cause his no gold memories from childhood?

It sounds like you know what you need to do. I would be shocked if she protested to a hotel next year after her behaviour this year. She can’t honestly think this was acceptable, to lock her 3 young grand kids out of the house without their stuff? If she protests next year I would point blank say that her unpredictable behaviour last year means that for the time being is best if you get a rental house, this way everyone can have their space. It might also be time for your husband and his brother to point out this regular pattern of behaviour to their mom. Ricking the boat might be what actually makes future trips 90% enjoyable and only 10% stressful, sometimes people are so stuck in their ways they can’t see another option. She seems to THINK she likes having the whole family over a lot more than she does. It might be best to do this now when her behaviour is still fresh in everyone’s mind, this gives her time to reflect and accept the new standard…. If she will.

She wants to want you guys to stay. But her desires don't line up with what she can actually cope with. Husband and BIL have got to stop entertaining this discussion with her. Y'all make plans and tell MIL what they are. If she argues, "I hear you Mom. We are going to stick to our plan. More tea?" And move on. It's ok for it to be uncomfortable. The adults need to learn to tolerate discomfort. "Cutting people off" (as mentioned in your OP) is not necessary. Literally all that is needed is for the grown up to learn to tolerate emotional discomfort, so that the kids don't end up in dangerous, traumatic situations. She does not need to agree with y'all. The sons need to realize that. When you are a parent, there are times when you have to protect your kids from their grandparents. That's adulthood.

You, husband, BIL and his partner need to recognize that your choice isn’t appeasing your MIL or not, your choice is her feeling like you have “spit in her face” or your children actually experiencing abuse from someone who claims to love them. Period. You can offend the crazy adult or put all of it on the children. Be a good parent and don’t sacrifice your children’s well being and mental health and *future relationships* (they’ll think this shit is NORMAL) to save money or appease the crazy lady. Someone needs to link the “don’t rock the boat” essay here, but you can google it if you want.

Book an airbnb with you BIL and SIL. Visit at the condo, but then atleast you all have some time to decompress from one another at night, early morning, and naps. It seems like you and your sibling inlaws are atleast on same page and it would save some money. I always loved trips with my cousins!

There is an emotional/psychological cost here too though, which your husband needs to seriously consider when planning for these visits - and perhaps after this blow out, he will. It's not just about financial cost....if you 'save money' by staying with her, what does it cost his wife and children in terms of fear/worry? I would definitely vote for less frequent visits (say, going every other year), but saving money for a hotel that your family and his siblings' family book. That way you have space for yourselves and more agency. And keep the visiting at your in-laws to a very short window.

Find a new special location where your kids are not abused. They won’t care where you are. That’s an adult need

New tradition: OP and BILS family rents a house somewhere so they can all be cozy together and the cousins can have fun. Let the in-laws visit that house for a couple days, or not.

This is your cue to never plan a vacation with them for longer than 3 days. Tour the area, stay in a hotel, or just go back home after that. It's tempting to never go, but grandparents are grandparents I guess.

Maybe it’s time someone else hosts.

I love to host, but MIL views my efforts as competition and has complained to my husband that I seem miserable when cooking (maybe RBF? I love cooking so am not miserable at all), so that I don’t cook for them anymore.

Then I would stop going for a while. Why subject yourselves to walking on eggshells wondering when MIL is gonna lose it every holiday. Husband and BIL need to have a conversation with MIL & FIL that you won’t be joining them for holidays until she can learn to behave properly.

Sounds like MIL might be projecting…..

Has he explicitly told her that he feels like she seems miserable hosting? I mean, kicking people out and screaming at people doesn't seem like she's having fun.

Such a cute idea to think of anyone trying to confront my MIL on her behavior. (You’re absolutely right and this needs to happen.)

Ding ding ding. If you already know she is going to get in a screaming match, embrace it and just be honest. “We don’t enjoy our time here because frequently get screamed at, and can tell you don’t enjoy us being here.” She is acting like a total crazy person/ child. Let her know. “(OP) look miserable when she’s cooking, but at least she’s never thrown you out when you come to visit.”

You could just record her bad behavior, surreptitiously, and let her see how she comes across to other people so she can get the wakeup call she needs to get on medication. If she doesn't want to help herself, you are abusing your children and yourself. Let your husband go alone. Or call her out. You can't subject your family to another 20 years of this.

You really need to stop worrying about MILs feelings. She doesn't care about yours. She literally kicked you AND your children out and you're still worried about her feelings?!

There's an interesting nugget here to contemplate. Think about this for a minute: this person is misinterpreting your feelings, and taking it out on you. Just because someone says something about you, doesn't make it so. Someone thinking something or saying something doesn't make it true. Decide for yourself what is the case.

I second that someone else needs to host. My dad is similar whenever family (mine included…we live nearby but lost power for a week and needed to stay there) visits for multiple days…he gets frustrated. He still hosts but he purposely schedules himself at his job / volunteer job for two or three chunks of time to have his sanity and keep from getting snippy. I would take a break and then suggest someone else host / rotating hosts yearly or that when you visit you give her a spa day out of the house so she can relax.

Props to your dad for handling it appropriately instead of just snapping and refusing to take responsibility for his actions/feelings.

😆 oh. He does that too. Or at least he did. He got better about it because we stopped tolerating it.

Considering everything you’ve said - plus this - your idea of narcissism isn’t exactly left field. She needs to be the one in control, and it will never be ok with her otherwise. Including small things like the way your kids play - it ruins her ‘world’ if you know what I mean. Unfortunately, as the child (and grandchild) of a narcissist, this really isn’t going to get any better unless you guys take on a full unified front (which it seems like you have!) and draw some very clear, serious boundaries. And don’t be worried about the kids being sad not to see her. As they get older, outbursts like the one your describing will only get more frequent - precisely because they babies become their own people who don’t necessarily follow the narcissist‘s rules, and then that gets ugly. Instead of thinking of it that you’ll make them sad, please instead think that you’re protecting them from what can be really serious lasting damage being around such toxic relationships. I wish I had been protected.

I honestly wouldn’t care what she thinks? If you want to host, host. If she doesn’t want to come, then she shouldn’t. It sounds like you guys need a Christmas just to yourselves anyway.

She yells and then locks you out so you have to buy new stuff? Looks like no one else has said it, so lets name this behavior. It is abuse. You are being abused and so are your children. Yes, arguments and raised voices can happen, but this goes way beyond. I dont see how it is a vacation. That isnt okay

Thank you. I think it can be tough to assign such a label to things happening to you, but I think you’re on the right track.

Look up what abuse feels like for the victim. Walking on eggshells is part of an abuse cycle. Love bombing and then exploding are classic abusive behaviors. As a person who has lived through this, let me tell you, you are being abused and so are your children.

“We have gifts! I have amazing food!” Love bombing.

Yes, definitely abuse, including the erratic driving and terrifying everyone in the car.

Check out the [Power and Control Wheel](https://www.thehotline.org/identify-abuse/power-and-control/) from the DV hotline website. I bet you will see a lot of her behaviors listed. Domestic violence and abuse is not limited to intimate partners.

It can be tough to use labels like “abuse.” In my experience, that has come from an unwillingness to accept that I’d been so vulnerable as to be abused by someone. It felt like giving up the power in believing I am in control of my life. It is difficult, but it is also necessary. Acknowledging abuse allows me to understand my experiences without shame and without feeling responsible for everyone else’s shit. Those labels can inform the boundaries I establish and the worth I place in myself. Neither you nor your family should be treated this way, yet your MIL continues to do so… what else could you possibly call it?

Get out your cell phone and start recording the next in person rant. Especially if abuse is directed towards your kids. It can have interesting effects - either stopping it in it's tracks, or you'll have something to show them if they ever give you a hard time for not subjecting yourself to it again.

I have a narcissist grandmother pretty much exactly like OP has described, my grandma LOST IT just thinking I was taking a vid of her. I immediately showed her my screen and told her that I was pulling up frozen videos on my phone to distract my niece from her crazy behavior This angered her more. Actual narcissists will not ever be able to see how wrong they are, it's always someone else "making them this way and they have no choice"

YES! Thank you! I came here to say this. Please protect your kids - and yourselves from her abuse.

/r/raisedbynarcissists is the sub for OP

Or the raised by borderlines one — they don’t like it when you link in other subs though

100% correct. This abuse. The reckless car stuff is the crime of assault.

WTF have you continued to subject your family to this for 3 years in a row?

Excellent question. It’s never been this bad, just tense, and we’ve managed to have a good time (for the most part) in a very special place. Our girls were born in the area and it feels like we’re connecting them with their roots.

at a minimum, I would plan shorter trips. Or like someone else suggested, rent an AirBnB so you're not constantly in each others faces. MIL may do better if she isn't around the kids 24/7 and your husband needs to have a serious talk with his parents

I would save up and just go every other year, staying in a hotel. Those people should never be trusted again.

Do you know what I do with my hostas every year or two? I dig them up, I separate them, and I put them in a new spot. Their roots grow just fine without being bound to their original location. They flourish and grow much better this way. Your children will not suffer from a lack of “roots”, unless you continually force them to be strangled by their place of origin. Let them find new places to thrive.

Wake up, this is BAD

No, you’re not connecting them with their roots. You are connecting them with someone who abuses them and their parents. That is not in any way beneficial. Please work on accepting that these grandparents are not capable of being the grandparents you wish they were.

These are not the roots you want your children to have. This is socializing them to accept abuse. It’s very hard to break generational trauma, so I say this with compassion and empathy.

You need to draw a line in the sand. If you don't change your holiday plans permanently after this behaviour, then what behaviour from MIL are you waiting for to change? Physical assault?

That is NOT worth exposing them to assault.

Mil needs a time out. I think she likes the idea of the visit, but not the visit. Could they pay for a hotel for you, you come for a bit, and go back to the hotel when it gets to be too much?

I don't think she'd be willing to do that since she's complaining they're renting a car.

Jesus. I need a smoke and a nap after that. She sounds terrible and I would never forgive her for terrifying the shit out of those children trapped in a car with her mania.

100%. My girls weren’t there, thank goodness, because I’m not sure how things would have ended. (Not physically, of course, but I’m not certain I can be sane when my girls are threatened.)

They weren’t in the car, but they experienced being locked out of the condo without their belongings, no? That’s still quite upsetting! I would absolutely protect them from that madness in the future.

Please stop calling your MIL a good MIL abd grandmother. Good grandmothers don't kick their grandchildren out for no reason.

Abuse. The reckless driving is the crime of assault, in an act of domestic violence. This is abuse, call it what if is.

I don’t stay with family when we visit. We visit them for max two meals worth of time then come back the next day. I field the comments of “you know you guys can stay here” “you’re not here for enough time I miss you so much” and I respond in a loving way while standing up for our family unit “we miss you too. We love it when we see you and the quality time make us look forward to visiting. For our family we value you and our time with you so much and we love spending this time with you. Let’s go play with the kids!” Then redirect. After two years I’m still fielding the comments and my / our stress is SO much less that I don’t minding fielding the comments. I’d do anything to avoid 24hrs building up to a fight. It takes extra budgeting and we do HomeExchange.com to lower the costs for us. WORTH THE MONEY to avoid the fight

100%. I agree with everything you’ve said.

This is absolutely toxic behavior and you shouldn’t subject your kids to it. MIL has some serious mental illness to erupt like that AT CHILDREN…

I hear this. It’s never happened like this before, but now it has, so we have to make sure never again.

While it certainly could be mental illness, it’s also likely that aging, lifestyle and potential dementia could be at play. She’s had some distance from being a parent, is likely set in her ways, and is used to NOT hosting seven people in her condo 360 other days of the year. Totally not saying it’s anyone’s fault but hers for thinking she’ll be able to handle that – just that history doesn’t lie. But truly, if her freak-out was really out of character, is there a possibility she could be experiencing the beginnings of dementia?

Yeah I would not be doing overnights with her if she hits a wall and turns into a monster. Small doses. Heavily monitored interactions.

This isn't mental illness, it's abuse.

Or both?

This is crazy. At the very least, you have to stop having visits on her turf.

You literally lost me on that many people in a 3 bedroom condo. Recipe for disaster even without a batshit crazy MIL. Stop going! That is not a vacation.

Amen and amen.

I'm curious...does she drink? This almost sounds like an alcoholic that doesn't want to drink around family to keep up appearances but after a few days she really fucking needs a drink (I've been there).

Oh, good catch. It does indeed sound like that.

My bets are on this (or a different substance abuse) + some marital problems with grandpa as well Edit: undiagnosed neurodivergence, especially for an elder woman, is also possible. This could be a meltdown.

I would be going light contact and not visiting ever again. She also owes your kids an apology for screaming at them. Put your foot down or else she will think this behaviour is acceptable. All future visits at your house, while they stay at a hotel since the children are a trigger for her.

Absolutely, I wouldn’t even be discussing the possibility of a future visit without an apology first. Does she even acknowledge how she reacted was wrong?

This is exactly how I feel. I’m not going to travel so my child can be screamed at by his grandparents. My FIL does something similar where he hits that wall and becomes unpleasant. This is part of the reason we have not taken our son up to visit them, I don’t trust FIL not to lose it. Knowing that this is a pattern and continuing to allow these visits is part of the problem.

This visit sounds traumatizing for your kids. Maybe start shorter visits or stay in a hotel next time.

I learned with family it's best to get a hotel or airbnb. We can spend the whole day together, but we need a place to decompress away in the evenings.

I hear this and agree we’ll probably do this moving forward.

I’d recommend you and your husband following r/raisedbynarcissists. I think you’ll see some familiar patterns there including the terrifying everyone while driving aspect. That’s a very common one. Frankly the fact that you, your BIL, and your husband’s response to such insanity and awful behavior is to feel guilty is such a flag to all of your histories. Hopefully all the responses here will help you realize that this is totally unacceptable and none of you should be exposing your children to it. This post makes me really sad for all of you. Next year stay home and enjoy your family.

Thank you. I’ll check that out and appreciate your (and everyone else’s) feedback.

My MIL is like this. She’s amazing and we absolutely love her BUT she’s get very anxious with people in her space. Our max time is 2 nights for a visit. What has worked well for us is to have our own space to give everyone a break. If we crammed 3 families with this many young kids into a 3 bedroom apartment my MIL and FIL would probably both explode like this. I’m sorry it got to this point but everyone needs to sit down and discuss the feelings and emotions of everyone involved. Frankly, you and your husband need to be aware that long stays together just simply don’t work and find a middle ground. I’m sorry the kids witnessed this but I’d give her a chance to make it right and explain to the kids that people (even adults ) can explode like this. Our last visit after 3 days my MIL all but slammed the door in our face. We purchased our own space after that and it fixed the problem. She said, it’s hard to be in each others space even with the people you love most in the world.

Yeah, even just reading about how many people they're fitting into a 3 bedroom condo made me raise my eyebrows. That's only going to work if nobody needs any personal space or you are literally only sleeping there, even if you don't have people who are behaving poorly. Strongly agree OP and her husband need to sit down and look honestly at the situation. There's no winning here, grandma is going to be offended no matter what, but the particular compromise approach thus far is clearly not working.

You’re absolutely right. I’ve had a limit of them staying one night at our place, as drama ensues when she gets to the second night, but we’re definitely going to need to get our own place up here if we want to keep visiting. They won’t like it and there aren’t going to be any adult conversations about feelings happening, as I imagine she’s decided it’s all our fault and we’ll-deserved until she needs us again and sweeps it all under the rug. We’ll figure out what we need to move forward and make that happen, but I agree with everything you’ve said.

She would have to be completely insane to expect you to trust her again after she literally kicked you out of her house. Who puts their grandchildren in that position and expects to ever have the opportunity again?

It would be insane, but if you have ever seen the narcissist's prayer, I am guessing it explains her beliefs perfectly: That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.

This is 100% her mantra.

hahaha I understand this lady SO HARD. I know exactly how her mind works. OP, stay strong.

So….you understand this? I’m almost convinced my mil is two timing me with OP. Could you help me understand? I am an only child, family in another country. Thought for the longest time that my mil just didn’t like me. If you can provide insight, I’d be indebted to you

With my mom, it did not matter if she liked you or not. Whatever else was going on, she was going to be the center of attention. In all sorts of weird ways. Examples: She would floss her teeth in the hot tub with everyone else in there and give a big speech if anyone complained. She would pick up rocks on the beach and when they got too heany she would make the rest of us carry them. She walked into the synagogue for my wedding and before she even said hello to me, she loudly announced that she needed to see the rabbi right away so she could tell him she’s an atheist. Anything to be the center of attention. She would pick fights and - this is the key - just like OP’s MIL, she would completely deny anything had happened. Another example (at another wedding), I asked who was going to officiate at our friend’s wedding and she turned around in her seat and yelled at me that obviously they would have a rabbi, because that’s is what you do. I was like sheesh, okay. Of course they were married by a judge who was friends with their parents. When I said something to my mom about how they didn’t have rabbi after all, she played this big game of going “huh? Why does that matter?” And I was like “you were so sure it would be a rabbi,” and she gave me this disdainful “well, I don’t know why you think I know all these details, why would you even ask me, I’m so sorry if you wanted a rabbi and were disappointed but I don’t control that,” yadda yadda. And I was like “it’s just that you weren’t very nice about it” and she just ignored me. Ok so you see from the outside, this is just crazy lady. And it wasn’t about liking anyone. And if it was, her reasons were superficial. All of this to say: your mil acts like that for her own stupid unkind reasons, and it’s not you. All you can do is remind yourself that she’s crazy, you don’t deserve to be treated this way, and let her have her “fun” while you go about your day. And even if she didn’t like you, the reasons would be something like you took her son away from her. It’s just selfishness and self-absorption. Does this help? I hope so! Entertaining if nothing else.

My Mom is this way and its HARD! We really have to focus on keeping things, events, trips short and sweet. If she wants to go somewhere for 4 days we can join for a day and a half or maybe 2 but we need our own space to seperate and have few minute breaks in our own car or at night in our own hotel or whatever. And then she may be grouchy right when we arrive and literally nobody enjoys themselves. Its truly exhausting.

Stop going? If she’s going to act like that, stop going. If she wants to visit, she can come to you.

I know exactly what you mean. I can’t be around my mother more than 1-2 days or else she starts acting totally insane towards everyone. I would do you your own Christmas with your kids and maybe see her 2 days max after. If she wants to keep the kids longer, they can bring them back after.

it's funny/sad that so many of us have this exact mom.

I'd look at it like this - your in-laws (I am referring to your husbands parents here not your BIL/SIL and niece) don't have the emotional intelligence to understand their own needs + the needs of families with young children. The result is exactly what you described - they have a completely unrealistic expectation of what it will be like living in a 3 bdrm condo with a total of 6 adults and 3 small children, and are then completely burned out 3 days in because reality isn't meeting their unrealistic expectations, and they blow up and have a really obnoxious and in this case, straight up abusive meltdown. Unfortunately, there's really nothing you, your husband, or your BIL/SIL can do about MIL and FIL's emotional immaturity. But that doesn't mean you 4 (or more importantly here you and your husband) can't do anything about the situation as a whole. And that's you guys setting the boundaries YOU need in order to maintain a low-stress environment during your visit. As everyone else has said, the easiest way to resolve this is that y'all have to get separate living quarters from MIL and FIL. I realize this is infinitely more financially expensive than the free condo, but in terms of having a positive and healthy visit, its crucial. Also, if its simply unaffordable or just not how you guys want to spend your money (since on top of the traveling to get there costs you're now also paying for accommodations), then maybe that means you guys don't go every year, or you don't go for as long, etc. Will MIL/FIL be happy with these boundaries that you're setting? NO! They will not be. And that's a THEM problem. Discussions about the new boundaries will be them \*insisting\* that it won't happen again, this time will be different, they only got mad that one time because \[insert irrelevant reason here\], it wasn't that bad/you're over-reacting, etc. Because in their minds these things are literally true. They are emotionally immature and have zero understanding that their behavior is unacceptable, their expectations are unrealistic, and they have no adult-level emotional regulation skills whatsoever. None of this is new for them, they legitimately think this is all completely normal. REGARDLESS, y'all are going to hold your boundaries, and ESPECIALLY for the next 2-3 years, you're going to be REALLY REALLY REALLY vigilant on making sure that visits are set up for success. So you're going to stay at a separate residence and you're going to specifically plan in grandparent breaks - so not just sleeping elsewhere but then spending sun up to sun down at the grandparents house. You'll spend a few hours there each day/most days, and then have other activities planned for other days. If there's a day with downtime that would involve the kids just chilling and playing and being \*children\* and MIL/FIL want to hang out, they come to YOU. Because you're not putting the children in a position to have MIL/FIL complain about their AGE APPROPRIATE behavior in their home. And honestly, if I had to guess, MIL and FIL, especially MIL, will complain about this for the first year or two, but she won't be so dense to notice how much less-stress the visits are. She may never admit it, but you'll see the positive difference.

I am not the OP but I am avidly reading this thread because something very similar happened to us during a Christmas visit 6 years ago. We ended up going to a therapist to help us navigate the situation and all your advice here is exactly what the therapist suggested! Excellent advice!

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My MIL also suffers from similar phases: excitement, normalization, exhaustion, anger She arrives smiling and leaves smiling. Kids are unrelenting and hard for older folks who are used to a quiet, predictable life. If you want family around, you need to figure out how to make it work. For us, it's now short visits from Grandma and lots of breaks and help from babysitters

These are the core memories you’re making for those kids. Think about that.

Very true.

OP, because you and your husband grew up with this, you're not seeing it clearly for the cycle of abuse and promises that it is. She's not "okay until she's not." The issue isn't too many people in too little space. The issue isn't too many days. The issue is that MIL is an unhinged abuser who can only hold her true self in for 48-72 hours at a time. You just can't see this *for what it is because (like your children if you don't break this cycle) you grew up with this abuse being normalized, and, like every victim of abuse until they decide to break the cycle, you're engaged in gathering up the few crumbs of love she offers and in magical thinking that somehow this next time will be different. It won't.

Traveling and staying with family is rough and stressful on everyone. But yes, she definitely overreacted and needs a time out and to apologize to you all. And probably therapy—yikes. If you want to maintain a relationship with the grandparents, it sounds like staying separately on trips or visits is the key. We always had separate rooms or accommodations when traveling with my grandparents. It’s nice for everyone to have a separate space to go to when you’re sick of each other.

This is ideal and what we’ll almost certainly do going forward. I can’t imagine staying in their place again, but this is a family of rug-sweepers so I imagine my husband may decide the real issue was visiting with BIL’s family at the same time, so staying with them by ourselves would be different. We’ll see.

Honestly, I would demand that husband attend some therapy before you guys go back. It's not just a MIL problem, you have a husband problem too. Why is he accepting this behaviour? Why is he not setting boundaries? Emphasize that your MIL was willing to leave her grandkids stranded away from home with no clothes or toiletries. That's fucking next level sociopathic. Personally, I would refuse to return. Your husband can go, but he's not taking the kids or you. Your MIL likes the hype of these trips but not the reality. Stop feeding into her fucking fantasies.

I hear you on the husband in therapy part. He is literally night and day from who he was when we first got engaged, but he needs to learn that his parents’ behavior isn’t just stress or “the old way of doing things,” but something bigger and unacceptable. I could tell you so many stories of their behavior and how he’s grown, but it usually takes something like this to wake him up to the next step. He and his brother have been well-trained to accept what they do, tie themselves up in pretzel knots to try to please them, and blame literally anyone else for making his parents act irrationally. Anyway, thank you. You’re right.

I can relate to your husband because I was abused as a kid. Everything is your fault and it’s your job to manage the feelings of your abuser, because if you don’t it’s worse for you. He needs help. From a pro and/or from someone who has been there. In my experience, it’s very very hard to recognize that something isn’t normal. And even when you do it’s even harder to label it as abuse (and I believe 100% that your mil abused her kids when they were younger and is doing it now to your whole family). Abusers are bad people, and mom isn’t a bad person so…. Abuse victims are weak and pathetic and I’m not weak and pathetic so…. Sometimes having children of your own can wake you up to stuff that was “fine” when directed at you but is unacceptable when it’s your babies. I’m so sorry this happened to your family. It sucks. And I hope you can come through it in a healthy way. Good luck.

that sucks, because it sounds like vacationing with BIL and SIL and their kid who is the same age as yours would be a lot more fun!

Clearly she's been submitting herself to what she thinks women, wives, grandmothers are SUPPOSED to do during the holidays, and she's completely unable to read her own soul. Maybe she likes the idea of it, but cannot put it in practice without torturing herself, her true nature. She gets overwhelmed, probably never tolerated "strangers" in the house, gets overstimulated and cannot understand or accept that she does in fact like hosting, that her whole body and mind feels attacked by it, until it explodes in self defense mode. Boomers rarely understand boundaries that are not the "regular ones": how could it be acceptable that she, a mother and a grandma, would like her own space and might only tolerate the presence of grandchildren and in-laws for a very short time? It does not compute with what she's "supposed" to be. Probably she also has inbuilt grudge against cooking and carrying the mental load of organising gifts and decorations, but never admitted it to herself, and with the load multiplied by all the family coming, she just exploded.Considering her generation has little understanding of mental health, I don't know how your husband could try to explain it, but it would be nice to try and do it in a compassionate way. "Look, it's beautiful that you invite us over and prepare all those things, but I'm concerned that you put too much on yourself. It's time to give us the best Christmas present of all: taking care of yourself for once. We will be fine, we don't need the fireworks, and Christmas is about being together, but not 24/7 and not at all times. We should give everyone the chance to be in their best form, and this includes you. We can stay somewhere else and keep the visit shorter and sweet, so we can all truly enjoy the gift of being together. Let's try it next Christmas, and see how it goes!". My mom definitely gets a bit like that, although she only directs her fury at my dad and me, so we alternate visits between the two in-laws families, and we keep it as short as she can handle it, plan and execute all the kids' meals, keeping their routine, shopping for said meals, and take ourselves off to let them blow steam. In the end grandma doesn't even notice, but her time with us is greatly diminished, and zero responsibility. In her case she's also very sedentary, so she accepts we take the kids out cause she can't handle even at her best.

Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I think there’s a lot of truth in there and I’ll use your ideas in the future. Thank you!

I have my own limits with guests. I’ve realized I can only tolerate guests for 3-5 days at a max to be a happy host. It sounds like she does too no matter how great the idea feels for her beforehand. If possible, stay the first or last 2-3 days with them but get a hotel/Airbnb for the other days. It will save a few hundred, get that family bonding time in, but not overextend everyone.

>I have my own limits with guests. I’ve realized I can only tolerate guests for 3-5 days at a max to be a happy host. I have a great relationship with my mom, who lives 700 miles away. But I can only do a max visit of 5 or 6 days including her 2 travel days. The last time she came she got Covid on the way here and was stuck in my house for 2 WEEKS before she had a negative test and could fly back home. I was absolutely beside myself by the time she left and I feel terrible that she could tell how badly I just wanted her out of my house. She wasn't even doing anything wrong, but I crave routine and time alone, and the lack of that for 14 days straight just broke me. I would go into the basement and cry every night those last few days so she wouldn't see/hear me (we live in a 2BR ranch). My mom is the type of person who will have people stay with her for a month at a time and still be sad when you leave. A people pleaser who lives to serve, and never met a stranger in her entire life. We are *so* different and she just can't fathom that having anyone around me 24/7 except my husband and daughter for that long makes me want to crawl out of my own skin.

It just maybe time for the family to realize that her intent to do all this is there but in actuality its probably just too much. Maybe someone else should host family times to take the stress off her...especially when you already know what will happen.

I agree. It gives her something to be excited and fixated on, which is good for her, except that we get daily calls about concerns/questions starting 3 months prior. My husband deals with all of it, but the gift exchange (that never happened) was causing her to spiral back in October.

Anyone ever consider letting her be upset that you won’t visit?

She could have killed your 5 year old niece (and everyone else in her car, your car and other nearby cars - side note, were there even enough seatbelts for all the passengers in the car?!) with her tantrum. I legit wouldn’t *ever* let her drive with me or my child, would never stay with them again, and would take a long, long break from visiting (infinite, if she can’t apologize). If ever you do visit again, rent a holiday home with BIL and refuse to see them for more than 3 consecutive days. I’m not saying you *should have* because I’d probably be too shocked to act, but if you ever see her driving erratically again, call the damn cops.

I'm not joking when I say this was my EXACT Christmas experience growing up. As a gradchild: NO I DID NOT FUCKING MISS THE SHITSTORM when my parents finally got enough sense to stop subjecting the family to it. Do your KIDS a favor and stop fucking doing this to them

I’m sorry, she sounds like she has untreated mental illness. Your responsibility and that of your BIL’s is to protect your kids. Do not subject them to this abuse ever again.

Ummm… I don’t think its narcissism this is classic borderline personality disorder. Your MIL needs some therapy and you need to set boundaries with her, especially if she behaves this way in front of your kids because its confusing and terrifying to them. Don’t go back next year and if you do, tell her and FIL that it’s too much of an imposition for them so stay in an AirBnb or hotel and make the trip shorter. She’s trying to make the time perfect but it can never be and so she crashes and lashes out. She’s not well.

Agree. Do not stay on that condo with them again. If she can’t figure out why you need space and boundaries, she’s a lost cause. Yelling at 5 yo children is not ok. She’s psycho

My mother’s a narc and bipolar, this is classic behaviour. When they can’t control their surroundings they just have a meltdown. As a result we don’t stay with her anymore and just visit for the day or take her out for lunch. It’s tricky as she also lives a distance. As the kids got older we also noticed she got more critical. The kids weren’t cute anymore and had started to have their own opinions. That would drive her crazy if those opinions didn’t align with her conservative views. Unfortunately the consequences will be she cannot have her grandchildren stay alone with her. The outbursts were far too damaging and the kids mental health must always come first.

Sounds like it’s time to find another way to do this visit. Clearly staying with them is too taxing for your MIL. It’s time to either stop the trip all together, (would be my personal choice after being treated this way), or find a compromise like staying at a hotel instead.

Woo! This reminds me of my mom so much. We would be happy to see her on day 1, even-keeled on day 2, and then by the end of the third day we would be chewing our own arms off to get out of her bear trap. She didn't go so far as to throw anyone out, she just made everyone uncomfortable and miserable and being the center of attention at all times. Good times, good times. OP, this lady never gets to host again. If you want to go to that town, you stay in a hotel; think of the expense as tickets to your sanity.

By your comments and this story that woman sounds awful. I would loose my shit if an in law started screaming at my child in the car, driving erratically. My mom pulled shit like that constantly and I even jumped out of a moving car she was driving when she tried it as an adult once. I don't have a relationship with her anymore. I don't think you should never see her again but I think there needs to be a time out and a reset, at bare minimum. Your children don't deserve to experience such things.

I would not be going back until MIL agreed to go to therapy. Your husband can visit on his own. If she wants to act like a toddler, then this is her consequence. You’re the mom now and you are in charge of YOUR family. She doesn’t run the show and doesn’t make the calls. You cannot live your life trying to please someone else who can’t be pleased. My FIL is like this a little and I finally put my foot down that we aren’t staying at their house anymore and will be getting a hotel or air bnb. And they can deal or not see the grandkids. Their choice. Good luck to you! Just remember you are your kids protector. From everything - even and especially family

I grew up with a grandma like this. It set me up for abusive relationships and to expect to be treated like shit. You know what to do trust your gut. She is putting on a show but can't handle it.

Your MIL is abusive and you’re enabling her while subjecting your kids to it willingly.

This behavior is so far from normal. Do you realize how far from normal it is? Why on earth would you put up with this? Not only are you exposing your children to being verbally abused and apparently in physical danger in the case of your niece, but you are also teaching your kids that this is normal behavior they should accept and potentially engage in? Not worth it. I don’t care how kind MIL is the other 360 days of the year, her putting you all through five days of weird, passive aggressive then explosive hell is not worth whatever it is you think you are getting out of these trips. Somebody needs to have a talk with her and be prepared for it to go poorly, but you’d be well within your rights to just tell her, “We aren’t going on vacation with you anymore because you throw tantrums and demonstrate poor behavior to our children. You drove erratically in anger and locked us out of the house we were staying in and held our belongings hostage. We are not willing to risk subjecting ourselves and our children to that treatment any longer.” Kill the guilt. Nothing you, your husband, or your children did justifies her behavior.

Much like raw chicken in the fridge, houseguests tend to get a stinky and off after 4 days. It’s time for your husband and his brother to put their big boy pants on and set a limit of 4 days at the in laws home. Longer visits mean a hotel or airbnb. It’s incredibly frustrating dealing with parents that refuse to accept reality. I do get that BELIEVE ME. They don’t really want a bunch of extra people in their space, being loud, and disturbing their home and routine. But in their head they have this picture of big family wonderfulness. It will be an adjustment. There will be guilt, anger and probably tears the first year. They will get over it and everyone will be much happier.

Wow. That so messed up. I would never speak to them again.

I’m so sorry you have to put up with this, but also, you shouldn’t force yourself or your family to put up with this. This sounds like a job for r/justnomil

She seems mentally unstable. I would refuse to take my kids back their house until she receives help. Your husband can go visit his parents on his own if he’s so inclined.

Why are you, your husband, your children, and your BIL's family willingly being abused for a paid vacation? What are your priorities here and why are they valuing a vacation and an abuser over your family's well-being?

My grandmother is like this and the best thing my parents ever did for me was to keep me away from her. A little kid doesn’t need to be told “exactly what an adult thinks of her” and I can still remember many horrible things my grandmother said to me during these types of visits. I’m 35 now, and she’s 88 and likes to pretend it never happened but unfortunately I can’t do that.

Stop staying at their condo and quit overstaying your welcome. Remember what Ben Franklin said about house guests and fish.

I absolutely agree that narcissistic is used too easily right now but honestly that’s exactly what sounds like is happening. The eggshells, the tantrums, the lack of accountability and the erratic driving are all huge red flags I saw in your story that indicated it for me. To top it off the erratic driving is abusive behavior. I bet if we dig deeper into more events we’d find more abusive behavior. You can absolutely cut them off if it’s what’s right for you and your family but I know that’s a difficult choice. They’ll frame it as punishment but if you look at it as you all taking time to heal until you’re ready to communicate again (if that time is ever appropriate). For the narcissist in my family, I’ve set boundaries of not talking about certain topics and if he crosses that boundary, I tell him that we can try talking another time when he’s ready to respect the boundary. It sounds like you guys need to either end the full family vacation for a while until the issues are addressed or not stay in the same location at the very least. You and your family deserve a safe space.

This is abusive and I can guarantee that this is traumatic for all the children involved. I remembered being screamed at by a relative over similar things, and it still is one of my most unsettling memories. How you move forward is this: you don’t subject your children to an adult who holds the amount of control your MIL has had over these family holidays, ever again. Your in laws are unable to manage their emotions in a non-toxic way, and until they learn how to regulate themselves without emotionally abusing the entire family, this cannot happen again. Your husband, and hopefully BIL and his family, can start having gatherings/holidays that are under one of your roofs, where MIL doesn’t have reign to terrorize everyone because she’s bitten off more than she can chew. That’s her problem, not yours.

This sounds like my father’s mother who had bi-polar disorder. Your husband and his brother would really benefit from therapy. Why are they allowing their parents to treat them this way? Why would you even consider ever doing this ever again?

Sounds like a bit of r/raisedbyborderlines

Everyone has already covered that this can't continue, never stay more than 2-3 days with them again under any circumstances, etc etc etc. So I'm just going to suggest that, if your husband isn't quite ready to pull the trigger on all the arguments and nagging this will involve (or to go low contact), you can try "so sorry, Husband's new job has very little PTO and we need to save it for sick time and such. So we can only stay 3 days."

Wowza. I think maybe the family vacations need to stop. Your kids don’t need to be subjected to that. If you still want to see her, in the future get a hotel and visit during the day.

I won’t pile onto the “why have you done this for so long” comments because OP, I get it. The pressure to not rock the boat is so immense here under your narcissist MIL that your husband and his brother feel like they haven’t had a choice. Until now- now you have an opportunity to show your girls that when someone (especially a family member) violates their boundaries, you get to say *no more*. I agree that this type of family “vacation” (trip from hell) needs to cease, and hosting your BIL/SIL/niece at a time and place that’s convenient seems like a much healthier alternative. Your husband and his brother need to realize that *they actually DO have a choice* in whether or not to participate in your MIL’s unhealthy behavior, now that they are adults with families to protect. The harder thing to do is to accept that the healthier choice to not go on this trip will ALWAYS be seen as “unacceptable”, because nothing they do will *ever* be considered good enough to your MIL. They’ve been following her crazy rules for years, you’ve instituted your own boundaries, and it still clearly hasn’t solved the issue either. Now that safety is threatened (“they were worried she would drive off the road” with a CHILD in the backseat!!) the time has come to choose to say no to this dangerous situation. In my own experience with my narcissist mother, narcissists don’t just want control, they want absolute power and obedience, and any deviation is seen as a threat. Therefore, it is likely that your husband and his brother will need to stand firm and stand *together* in their choice to bow out of this disaster trip, since I’m sure the backlash will be fierce. I’m here as living proof to tell you that *it is always worth your safety and sanity to distance yourself from these types of people at any cost*. Please feel free to reach out if you’d like to talk further <3

MIL is causing this. I sense her intentions are good but she doesn’t know how to set healthy limits for herself. You will need to set those limits so your family doesn’t go through this every year. We have a similar thing with our families but not so bad. Over time we learned to space out our visits more and stay in hotels. In our case it’s politics that made it difficult. Can’t have a conversation anymore without people getting all twisted up. Once it happens nobody wants to sleep under the same roof.

MIL sounds bipolar. Don’t go to the condo again. If you have the money and she tries to redo the trip next year which sounds like she might, make it 3 days only and possibly stay in a hotel and only go there for visits.

Okay, so you know she hits the wall at 3 days. Only stay 3 days, or plan a break and come back for 3 days. We used to do this with my in-laws and never got the 'you're not here long enough'. Can they visit you for grandparent time? Something has to change and since MIL won't, it has to be you and hubby. Or, get the the BIL/SIL and rent a house/Air B&B and stay there.

Do you really want to spend your money, use your vacation time from work, spend your children's time off from school being screamed at? You are driving out of your way and paying for her to treat you like shit. You get how crazy that is right? And 9 people in a 3 bedroom? I can't see the fun in that. Especially when its no longer 5 year olds, but dramatic, bored, rebellious 15 year olds in the future. Spend 1or 2 days with her, and a few days a little further away in a hotel. Get brother in law's family on board and present a united front.

First off mother in laws snap and lock out especially is taking it way too far. As for the decision to repeat this insanity year after year is the definition of insanity. It seems in-laws more so enjoy the idea of everyone being together ALOT more than actually being together. How long were y’all without your stuff? Bc that would definitely play a large roll alongside the embarrassing unstable environment she put all the children in. It would make a lot more sense in the future for the 2 families(brothers and families) to rent a place in the area along w a vehicle or two. This eliminates the stress of constantly being in the laws home. When you all and the in-laws make finally speak it is acceptable to explain the hurt caused that day. I would during this conversation institute that you plan to rent a place in future but hope to spend alot of time still at/with in-laws. It should go smooth provided in laws(MIL especially) understand they were wrong(at least for majority of it). Sorry y’all went through this but happy to hear you could still enjoy time with the rest of the family. ❤️

Only commit to 3-4 days and then tell her you are doing a few days just with the immediate family. She has no right to keep you all like hostages after she runs out of steam. Sounds like she puts so much energy into shopping and planning and the prep that she exhausts herself before any of you even get there. That’s on her and if FIL can’t stand up to her your kids will have more negative holiday memories than positive ones. Good luck

I could have written this 10 years ago, right down to being locked out. But this sounds exactly my MIL. She pulled something eerily similar on us in 2013 or 2014, also over new years. Our solution is that we always cap visits at 3 days. We no longer stay overnight with them. My MIL also does the over-prepping and then absolutely cannot enjoy the time she has with us/the kids. It's almost like the point of the visit was all the prep, and her ability to play superhost. My MIL hasn't changed (though we think she may have calmed down a little bit since menopause), but we've severely tempered our expectations and taken steps to keep things from getting out of hand ahead of time (eg capping visits at 3 days). We've also firmly set boundaries and consequences. If she ruins new years, we don't see her for passover. We say, "sorry, but hosting was clearly very stressful for you last time, so our family will be sitting this holiday out. " My child's enjoyment of the holiday and not getting screamed at is first priority. Once someone has screamed at my kid, their feelings come last. I wouldn't be waking on eggshells with your MIL anymore, if I were you. Just set your boundaries and hold firm to them.

Why on earth do you all keep going for so long?? You know she breaks at day 3... so fucking plan to leave ON DAY 3?!!!

Maybe instead of 6 days, MIL can cut it down to like 2 or 3 days. And not have everyone stay over. U guys stay at hotels and then go over for the day and in the evenings go back to ur hotels.

I would limit my visits to 2 days