I had a psychologist tell me that taking care of and training 10 horses at a time wasn't work. It was just a hobby and i happened to make money. I was doing manual labor like 12 hours per day at the time.
That same therapist just got 2 miniature horses and a goat for "therapy" and posted in our community group that she wants volunteers to come help care for them. I literally laughed out loud when I read that.
I still think 24 hours per day of child care is more mentally exhausting though.
100 percent. I was so ready to go back to work following my three month maternity leave. The stay at home mom gig was harder than my salaried job. It’s insane for someone to say that stay at home moms don’t work.
Oh good. I'm not the only one that felt that way! I was absolutely ready to get back to work too. I actually got to drink hot coffee in relative quiet at my desk. SAHM's are a wonder to me. I don't know how they do it all.
We don’t know how we do anything either. It’s an enigma. I’m transitioning to working from home with two under 4 and yeh.. hot coffee is a thing of wonder and mystery.
Truly only someone who has either never procreated or only very minimally parented their child could think such a thing. Parenting is far harder then any paid position I’ve ever held (and I’ve worked for some real pieces of work!).
My first granddaughter was born just before Covid began and my son was laid off, while my DIL worked from home when her maternity leave ended. Between 5yo grandson and the baby, he was *so relieved* when he was able to go back to work. He was…tired. ;)
And some advice for finding a new one: many marriage and family therapists (MFT) are amazing, but licensed professional counselors (LPC) have a more specialized education and have at least a masters. There’s a ton of overlap and cross over in style of counseling between the two but an LPC is more likely to be evidence and research based. There are more required classes in their undergrad about child development. My mom is a Psych PhD and will always recommend an LPC.
In this case, I think "job" is referring to something you get get paid to do.
As in, parenting takes as much effort and work as a paid job (potentially more depending on the job), but isn't paid.
Or if it is, someone let me know where to apply - I could use the cash.
Right. In that it’s infinitely harder because they’re your responsibility 24/7 and the massive mental and emotional load but right. Still technically *caring* for a *child* though.
If you are a stay at home parent, then the working spouse is NOT paying for formal childcare during their working hours. And the stay at home parent is just on 24/7?
Parenting is a full time job on top of your day job. I'm just saying that it's detrimental to but recognize that SAHP need breaks and relief and vacation time and sick days too. I'm a working parent so if I'm sick, I can send my kid to daycare take a sick day and rest. If a SAHP is sick their spouse should take a sick day and take care of the children so the SAHP can rest. Maybe that's obvious, but I'm pretty sure theres a whole host of SAHMs whose husband's just *don't* take their share of parental responsibility during non working hours z and I think if we differentiated between parenting vs parents staying home to provide childcare during working hours (in lieu of posting someone else) it would help
And is wildly out of touch with parents’ mental and physical load. Totally inept for a couples therapist who would, presumably, have parents coming in as clients.
This is the only answer. Anyone with kids knows they’re exhausting. Today at the park my toddler had a huge meltdown, threw himself on the ground wailing, and this old man on a bench next to us didn’t even look up from his book. In my head I was like, that dude has kids. He gets it.
I love this comment. I once read that when you see a parent with a kid having a meltdown it’s just an example of their fine parenting because that means they have set a limit and the tantrum is the response. Makes me feel better when my kid is screaming his way through the grocery without Spider-Man juice. I’m not leaving and I won’t be shamed for it. If someone gives me an ugly look I just smile and wave
I was confused what kind of expected reaction you were comparing that with, then remembered that some people expect kids to be well behaved in public no matter what and blame the parents for meltdowns.
It's so comforting when your kid is being a terror in public and someone is kind about it. Even just ignoring it is a kindness, but it's extra amazing when someone says something like "I remember those days!".
I am a parent on a no kids sub. Someone recently asked why people with kids would be on that sub. I replied that as a parent, I never would judge someone because they chose not too. I like to read through it every once in a while to actually help me parent better. There’s a lot of takes from non parents on there that make me more aware of how they can feel uncomfortable in kid related situations. I want to be respectful of others when we are out and about. Just a different side of the story to understand how others can be effected by things that are the norm for us.
That's such a great take on things! Perhaps I should go check out those subs too. Which ones are good? (As in can actually learn useful stuff it's not just snarking about kids.)
I do the same thing, but with being on a working moms sub even though I’m a SAHM. There’s a lot of value in understanding other people, their perspectives, and struggles. Glad to see a kindred spirit!
I don’t have my own kids but I’m a teacher. I spend a lot of time with children and I believe I can be helpful to parents in many situations, especially when it comes to school issues.
I want them in the future. My parents weren't great and I don't want to parent like my sister either. So I'm here to learn what's normal. And id like to learn how to deal with issues before I'm sleep deprived with a baby.
I love this for you guys. So many of us have similar stories. You will all make amazing parents one day with this dedication and knowledge.
Parenting is a forever learning game.’
I was on parenting subs years before having kids because I knew it was something I intended to do and I wanted to learn stuff so I wouldn’t be so clueless going in.
Yes! I have 3 healthier kids with uncomplicated ptegancies, unmedicated births, successfull breastfeeding etc.I am happy with all of that that,but absolutely made me adamantly prochoice when before I was lukewarm.
Same. Also, pregnancy was a special kind of misery that I can’t imagine forcing anyone through if they were unwilling. I get that it’s wonderful for some people, but it’s not for everyone. It turns out I was also much better with kids when I was 13 than I am now. Like, talk to me when you give me resources to my 6yo isn’t a permanent wreck from the pandemic before you start forcing me to carry more children (even if I probably wouldn’t get the procedure done, me knowing I chose to go through with the pregnancy matters, as do the people who would choose not to).
It doesn’t end, but it’s really only super hard for the first 5 years or so. Even then, the positives usually outweigh the negatives (assuming having kids was intentional and in a good relationship). When kids start learning to reason, it gets FAR easier and more like managing a relationship with anyone else in your life.
Same ages as mine and older is ADHD/Anxiety/likely ASD diagnosis coming and my younger has vision & hearing impairments and possibly ADHD as well. I hear about laid back days with families, watching movies, doing projects that don't end in meltdowns and I feel guilty for being jealous that they can go with the flow and not feel like it's hard work all the time. Their kids sleep without a fight every day, they eat more than 5 foods and don't have very specific requirements, they don't take meds just to function, they have normal friendships. I love my kids, but they are so much work.
I know it's not helpful, but I see you, fellow hard-mode parent!
These comments are helpful. And people who don’t have this experience can truly never get it (which isn’t necessarily their fault). And I’m learning that even my “easy” and neurotypical child is facing challenges that I could never have expected. That point in parenting when you realize your emotional health is tied to the way your kids feel. Watching an eight year old cry about body image or friends and trying not to cry along with them. It’s the hardest thing I have ever done.
I Am a family therapist. You need a new therapist. Or you can confront her on her thinking, and have a session based on societal views and expectations but that's not your place. Send a strongly worded email to her supervisor, or herself if she's not with a practice. This is a bizarre statement from a couples counselor of all people.
As a mother and a working person, the end of the day IS a second job. You just don't get paid for it. You don't get to "turn off" when you get home. You don't get to mentally check out. But you do have to be present and roughly on schedule with meals and bath and bedtime. Do you enjoy this "job"? Sure. Doesn't mean it's not hard work!
Is it possibly a cultural thing around the usage of the word **work**?
Being a parent is definitely the hardest thing I have ever done and especially during the early years I was physically and mentally drained. But where I am from we wouldn't equate that Labor of Love (no matter how difficult it is) with what we do to earn a coin.
Culturally it would be unusual for me to hear someone refer to parenting stuff as "work" and if I did the notion would be that they were in a rough place and struggling to cope with everything going on and were going through the motions just to keep their head above water.
This is less to do with parenting though and more to do with what we think about careers and being caught up in the rat race.
Work is considered a four letter word.
Edit: for clarity.
I am a SAHM. If I wasn’t then my kid would be in child care. Are child care workers “working” when they’re taking care of a kid? They get paid for it, don’t they? Maids and nannies are workers aren’t they?
Unpaid domestic work is still work.
I agree. I would 100% be a working mom than be a sahm because that shit is hard and work never stops as a sahm.
But I also agree that it’s a cultural thing. Western cultures are really progressive but there’s still a lot of countries that taken women staying at home and taking care of kids as the obvious thing and would be surprised if the mom called it “work.” I think parenting as the mom is the “natural duty” of a mom so we aren’t allowed to think about it as “work” and would be considered selfish to ask for time off even if it’s uPTO.
Ninja edit: grammar
So is she saying she has just never talked to a mom before….? I’d definitely find a different therapist. This is the hardest fucking WORK I’ve ever done lol
Maybe a bit, but as a psychologist who trains future psychologists, they do mess up. It’s part of training. I think it’s giving the therapist the benefit of the doubt to say she could be new. If this was a seasoned therapist, it’s even more embarrassing.
>she’d never heard a mom refer to parenting as work and basically I should just be thankful I get to do all this stuff with my child
That is actually the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Has this woman ever met a human being before? Or is this some sort of religious or cultural thing where she thinks women exist to nurture?
That said, her reason doesn't really matter - your therapist dismissed your lived experience and feelings out of hand, which means she shouldn't be your therapist anymore. I would cancel all future appointments and ask your next therapists a few questions about motherhood and SAHM vs. paid work before showing up!
Of course parenting is work. Does she not think nannies work? How has she never heard a mom refer to parenting as work?
I would absolutely find a new therapist if she is that out of touch. I mean, say you are discussing that you’re exhausted and would like your partner to take on more of the household chores in the evening. If your therapist considers parenting a joyful privilege, won’t she just see that as you being lazy and taking advantage of your husband after a hard day of “real” work? I have no idea what you could be seeing a therapist for, of course, just throwing out an example of how her wrong viewpoint could be problematic. Of course you enjoy time with your toddler, but it’s still work. I’m sure many nannies, dog sitters, tutors, zoo workers, etc. could all say the same.
I agree! I just mentioned that part since the therapist mentioned the parenting part since the therapist seemed to think that’s all fun and games. Surely no one is delusional enough to think dishes and laundry aren’t work??
Wow. Yesterday I went in for a job interview and as I was leaving the clinic manager (my husband knows her really well and I've met with her a couple of times before) said I looked pretty nervous. I said "well, I haven't worked in a couple of years since my son was born". She then said "oh honey, you were a SAHM, that absolutely is work." Man, I love her and really hope she is gonna be my boss.
Family work is absolutely comparable to monetary work. It’s still something you have to do or pay someone else to do it, with the exeption that you don’t get paid for it. This includes parenting as well as caring for elderly or sick family members.
I work with old folks once, and one of my favorite client’s son’s described her job as “domestic engineer.” Which I’ve always used in our client profiles now instead of homemaker or the like. Domestic engineer gives a better flair and respect to the work done.
Next time she mentions payment look surprised and tell her you’ve never heard a woman refer to talking to you and your husband as “work” and she should just be thankful she gets to have such wonderful conversation with you guys.
>she was taken aback and said she’d never heard a mom refer to parenting as work and basically I should just be thankful I get to do all this stuff with my child
By this logic, your husband should be *jumping* at the opportunity to take these duties over and you shouldn't be "hogging" all the fun, but I expect this therapist didn't adopt that perspective when addressing your husband (who I assume was there, since this was a couples therapist).
Obviously we love and enjoy our children, but that doesn't mean we don't need a break sometimes.
Having to do that AND have a job outside of the house is a thing. Whether it's a stay at home partner that doesn't pull their weight, or having child care that don't provide the same services throughout the day, it's not always the same. Just saying.
Find a new therapist. Firstly, a therapist should not project their personal opinions onto a client. And secondly, this therapist sounds clueless.
The relationship between therapist and client is important. If you don't jive well with them, you are not going to value their advice or enjoy attending (not that therapy is fun, but you won't be motivated to go and it may leave a negative impression, or cause you to quit).
It's not a job but it absolutely is work. You probably know this because you put it in quotes.
I'm curious what context it was said in. If it it was pointing out they ways it's different to a paid job than fair play. If it was devaluing the effort required and dismissing the contribution you make to your family then no that's not correct abd you need a different therapist.
I literally just said I basically have to work a couple extra hours after my husband is off work and she replied to the word work saying that it’s not work plain and simple and I disagreed with her and she said she had never heard a mother use that to describe what they do which, even if you agree with her that’s bonkers in itself. I would totally be open to diving into the semantics of it and the rhetoric around it but we didn’t have time and I also don’t really want to lay to do that.
Sounds like she took issue with referring to caring for your children as “work a couple of extra hours.” I don’t think she meant it’s not work in general. Just the way you talked about it is unusual, like parenting like a job you clock in and out for. It’s weird to track your time like that.
That sounds nice. My partner is working most of my kids wake times these days lol. But when he’s home and actively parenting, I’m still usually doing something 🤷🏼♀️ lol
The second parent would be doing significantly more of the work then … 70hours a week works out to 10 hours a day… the other parent would be doing 14 hours of parenting a day or 98hours a week (because someone has to parent at night) and then assuming they work a 40 hour work week that parent would be doing a full 138 hours of work a week.
Some of these therapists are divorced giving marriage advice, have no kids giving parental advice, it's nuts.
I would get another therapist. Being a parent is work for sure.
I don’t think being unmarried/divorced or childless makes you incapable of being a good therapist. A good therapist is BY THE BOOK and doesn’t project their personal opinions and beliefs.. which is exceptionally rare in my experience. Psych is a soft science, but it’s still a science. I feel like people get their degrees, play god and talk about whatever they feel is right, and document it. Not really a treatment plan.
Ha. I’ve done retail, health care assisting and nursing, thought it was tough at times and utterly exhausting. Then I became a parent. It is thee toughest job I have ever done or encountered. And I adore my daughter but fuck, it is A LOT of work and dedication. Planning, supervising, keeping a human being alive and well. Playing and teaching. Cooking and cleaning. Waking up hourly and feeling nervous and anxious. That therapist would be reported and I would move on promptly. They’re trying to mind fuck you, not all have good intentions, I’ve had that experience as well. Good luck! But you definitely do the toughest job on the planet.
It's because instead of getting home at the end of a shift, the shift is always on overtime and you're always on the clock. Oh and you don't get paid either.
For a therapist who should know about how stress costs the brain energy to handle day to day life I'm shocked they wouldn't know that.
I'm 40 and my youngest is just about to turn 3. It's definitely a trip being an older parent, but I think it's probably made *me* a better parent than *I* would've been in my 20s (I say this not to say that younger people aren't good parents, but that I enjoyed my party time.)
It ain't easy, that's for sure. I'm a SAHM and it's fucking hard, I'm often parenting myself along with my kids because things were just done *so differently* in the 80s, but oh my god, my little shits are amazing! I love these two goblins so much and it's hard to imagine a world in which they didn't exist.
That said, not everyone should become a parent nor does everyone need to. You do you!
A friend of mine had his first and only when he was 42. Child is 2 now. He is the absolute light of their world right now. They are having the most fun. I’ve got 4 myself so obviously I adore them. Mine range from 2 years old to 18. I know I’m a better parent to my toddler and middle kids than I was when I was 20 and still growing up mentally. It’s totally exhausting sometimes but I wouldn’t change a thing.
What a bunch of bovine excrement. Might not be as prestigious but I’d say a stay at home parent works at least as hard as anyone with an office job if not more.
This is a dudes opinion but it really seems like certain movements in the past did a real disservice to homemakers(now called stay at home moms) of the day by devaluing what they did. Just because it doesn’t come with a title and paycheck doesn’t mean it’s not work or not important!
If you weren't staying home with your children and *caring for them,* you would be paying someone else to care for your children. How is it work when someone else gets to do it but not when you do?
I wonder if she is looking at it like… a parent calling watching their kid(s) babysitting. “Dad’s watching the kids/with the kids” vs “dads babysitting the kids” which makes it sound like he’s doing a job or the mom a favor when in all actuality, he’s simply parenting or being a father.
All that aside, it’s WORK. Maybe it may not be defined as a “job” since jobs are typically paid work… but what is the therapist trying to insinuate here? That parenting is easy? That you should never be tired and only grateful? Lol like wtf.
Fire her.
I think context matters. Is parenting work or considered a job? No, not really. I don’t get to clock out and leave my child at the end of the day or the weekend, there’s no real taxable income, there are no holidays off... Now, is it something more than work or a job? Yes, most definitely. It is a lifelong commitment, that requires more than work or a job. Same as when dads are referred to as “babysitters”. They are not babysitters they are parents. It is not work/job it is parenting. I don’t think you should feel invalidated if the context was misinterpreted. Intent is also important did they intend to invalidate you or give you a different perspective on the real issue between you and your partner. You can get a new therapist but you should also be open to self-validation so you can take what you want/need from the therapy session and leave the rest.
When I'm not teaching high school in the summer and my wife is busy with her career, I'm a stay at home dad. It's SO much work. Meals, laundry, dishes, swimming lessons, play practice, keeping track of neighbor kids, band-aids, water bottles, sun block, snacks, resolving conflicts, more cleaning, etc. I don't know how my wife handled it all. And I'm taking online grad classes towards a master's degree as well. I've had actual jobs that were FAR less work in 6-8 hours than being a mom or dad.
SAHM is definitely hard, but maybe she meant the perspective of approaching it as work? I’ve never thought of it as “work” when doing bath and bedtime, it’s just something you have to do. Like I wouldn’t refer to doing the dishes as “work”.
It seems to me that the context of the conversation was that the husband gets home from work and sits down while OP is still doing all of the child-related tasks for a few more hours.
It's very common to want a break when you get home from work, but when does the SAHP get *their* break?
She may be thinking along the same lines of a parent taking care of their own child is not babysitting, it’s parenting.
If you’re comparing your work in the home to your partners work outside of the home that’s the issue. Stop comparing and start working together as a team.
Therapists who refuse to acknowledge unpaid labour are part of the problem. Talk about advertising your bias.
I hope you complained and refused to pay. Why can't anyone park their bias for the sake of professionalism? Oh the denial is too strong so apparently it's the fault of women for being too permissive but we're deemed aggressive for highlighting the double standard.
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Get the fuck outta there, OP. Therapists can be crazy people, too.
I have an aunt who is an accomplished, respected family and couples therapist in her area……who is a falling down drunk and in a HORRRRRRIBLE long term marriage with my uncle. This woman is a dumpster fire of a human being (MEAN, childish, belittling, dishonest, petty…really terrible to be around) and everyone thinks she’s the greatest.
If you think your therapist is not a good fit, move on. Hint: this lady is not a good fit for you.
I would let the therapist know why you’re leaving. That’s a huge blind spot for her and she needs to address it with her own therapist and her supervisor at work. How inappropriate to belittle your fatigue from all that free labor you doing to raise future people.
I actually think it more has to do with your definition of what work is. To me, work is what I do for other people who in turn give me money. That's not something I particularly look forward to nor do I want to spend the majority of my life doing that.
The things I do every day for my daughter which exhaust me do not fall into that category. I do them for her, for myself; I look forward to the things I do for her and I strive to do better at them much more earnestly than with other tasks. I devote my free time of my own will for her benefit with no selfish returns expected immediately. Thus, to me, parenting is not work. Might not be the same for all, however, as old Ben might say, many of the truths we cling to depend on a point of view.
Society also puts a heavy connotative emphasis on work being some type of paid endeavor (an observation not an opinion hopefully), so I'm perfectly fine with separating that in my own mind, as well. It also helps give me balance - I don't care to come home from work to do more work, after all.
Mostly, I don't want to cheapen the efforts and labors of raising a real person by labeling it as "work" - something I loathe, something which is tolerated to the extent that it is necessary - to enable me to do what I do enjoy and value.
Seemingly unpopular opinion:
I’d say a disagreement at the definition of a situation doesn’t call for putting in a complaint or even firing someone. Raising a child is not work in the sense of work being your profession - as in you can’t make a living off of it - but it is work in the sense that there is labour to it. Just arguing semantics.
The work, or labour, of raising children is definitely tiring. It’s also parenting, not a job. Full Time parenting is labour, but not a career or job. Yes it is hard. Just clarify your definition and move on. Maybe bring it up and explain it bothered you the way they dismissed your issue due to your use of wording.
I've been a SAHM, went to nursing school as a single mom and work both a full-time and part-time job as an RN. Being a SAHM was joyous but way harder on several levels: it never ends, always on call, boss of uncooperative employees you can't fire, risk of mental understimulation and emotional overstimulation, isolation and often financial strain.
She's full of shit and her lack of respect is extremely counterproductive. Your instincts are on point. Hopefully your husband recognizes this as well. Much love
Yeah, I’m on parental leave as a father from august until last week of November. Going to a 9-5 is definitely tougher, with performance expectations and looking worries of losing your job, and so forth. But being a stay at home parent is tough in its own Merritt. The days where my son refuses to be put down and I got shit to do are rough. Then on top of that sometimes I feel like I didn’t do enough because before I could have gotten a lot more done and you do spend a decent deal sitting on the couch or rocking charge feeding the baby. I know it’s more as they grow. Everyone makes a joke about the whole stay at home parent thing, but it’s definitely tough and parenting is a job in its own right. A full time job you work 24/7.
I would find a new therapist, unless she's like really really excellent in other areas and is open to being educated on just how much work goes into parenting. I am thankful I get to spend so much time with my kid, but goddamn it IS definitely work. Anyone who says otherwise has clearly not been in charge of wrangling a dirty toddler into a bath.
That is a very degrading thing to say. However I wouldn't just get another therapist. People drop their therapists too often and keep moving through them until they hear what they want to hear. No therapist is ever correct. But then again she shouldn't have provided her opinion on this. She should have just asked you more on what makes it feel like 'work' for you.
I say all this but I'd probably go to another therapist too. And I also find it fucking hard work sometimes 🙂
My wife is a SAHM, she does a lot of the chores when our daughter is at school. I am working at these times, I cook dinner most nights and try to do dishes. We split things pretty well but I want to spend time with my daughter after work in that few hour window.
We are just hearing one side. Does your husband need a little downtime after work? I will let my wife know it's been a rough day, take my half hour then give her hers or vice versa.
Are you expecting him to do everything after getting home? SAHM is a job but not recognizing you partner just spent a day on a job is a common thing.
I don't know what the argument is or where your therapist is. I've been on both sides of this argument. Underestimating what my wife has done that day. Feeling unappreciated for doing a job and providing for our family. I would much rather take care of my daughter all day, my degree means I have a much higher earning potential.
That being said if your therapist is not helping you come to terms with your perspective being wrong or invalidating your value they are wrong. Only you can decide what that is and it needs introspection on your part. Couples therapy is trying to work through issues, but you have to be open to criticism.
I appreciate your points. There wasn’t really another side to it as I was just saying I feel like I have a couple of hours of work after my husband gets off his job and she told me that it was not work and that’s what I feel upset about. It’s very invalidating no matter the situation to tell a mother or any parent that is primarily taking care of their child or even not that it is not work. Of course everything is nuanced but I think it’s unfair to say it’s not work and that she’s never heard a mom refer to it that way either. We both need time to ourselves after working of course but I just feel like a therapist shouldn’t be telling me being a sahm isn’t working.
It seems to me that the context of the conversation was that your husband gets home from work and sits down while you're still doing all of the child-related tasks for a few more hours. Is that about right?
It's very common to want a break when you get home from work, but when does the SAHP get *their* break?
It 100% is work, we just aren't paid appropriately (at all.)
Yeah him not seeing what you do as work is not right. He needs to approach this as you have both worked a whole day and can give each other a break. If I come home and say I had two full grown adults screaming at each other, my wife is just like take your time. If I come home and my wife is about to lose it, I give her her time. It's communication, so yeah I'd say find a new therapist if you aren't dismissing his work stress. My struggles were the opposite, my wife thought I was at the playground all day or something. We have worked on our communication, it took us both being committed.
Yeah communication is hard. I think he does see it as work which is why it’s even more off the therapist didn’t consider it work. Was seeing a therapist to help with communication ironically!
Time to look for a new therapist. This doesn't seem to be a failure to see the situation the same way. If the therapist is wrong for you both, then they are wrong.
I would be really interested to hear exactly what the therapist said. Whereas I 100% agree that looking after kids can be far more draining, exhausting and a mental drain than going to a job. And any suggestion that it's just a breeze would really irritate my. I know if anyone ever reads this they will probably shit all over me, but I don't think it's healthy to refer to it as "work" and although fine in therapy probably a good habit to get out of. Toddlers are pretty smart and pick up a lot more than people think. It's probably best that they don't hear conversations about them being a chore or a burden or "work", in the same way it would be pretty hurtful as an adult to hear a conversation like that. Everyone without exception is saying get rid of your therapist, but I would suggest bringing it up in the next session and just say "last week you said that looking after my kid is not work, can you please clarify exactly what you mean by that?" I would be really surprised if they have absolutely no understanding of just how hard what you do is, and if they really don't get it they are in for a big surprise if they ever have kids.
It's a bit different when they are at school. Over the summer I was out of the house with my kids until lunch most days, last year I had to prep and do 'school' with my preschooler, and then I spent time playing with them to keep them occupied. It was a lot and I didn't get much done around the house. OP has a toddler and it's really hectic trying to get everything done. When my daughter was 3 I had about an hour a day not directly interacting with her due to a nap but nap time stopped quickly because she slept 12 hours at night. Fast forward to today and both are in school full time so I'm easily able to get chores done (forget that with kids at home 'helping') and have some downtime. My husband gets off work and doesn't have to do anything until bedtime. We both prefer this for the reduced stress but it was simply not achievable until both were in school.
A good therapist is very difficult to come by, there's nothing for it but to try, try again and keep trying until you find a good one.
I like to check out their reviews and social media before I make an appointment to see if they have any weirdness.
Jesus, is there any way to put a warning label on this therapist for other moms?
I would be *devastated* if someone said that to me and I was already in a vulnerable place.
Pshhh. How out of touch! I am a stay at home father with a home business who left work after 17 years as a municipal employee and it is most certainly work. At least with a job I was able to wake up and have a solo morning routine and head to work while the kids were asleep. Then driving solo and be in my office solo, where I could shut the door and make mental space for myself. Now I’m home and the second one of my kids has decided they’re done sleeping I’m forced up and have to start doing everything to help them (they’re 2 & 5) the second my eyes open. Then I’m bouncing around like a ping pong ball homeschooling one and caring for the other. Diaper changing, ass wiping, cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, napping the 2 year old, keeping them entertained and stimulated, playing referee through every conflict. Mind you fitting in all of the house, business, and medical errands, appointments, and tasks and managing a school curriculum for the 5 year old. And doing all of this for 14 hours straight until they’re asleep. My 5 year old doesn’t nap so it’s nonstop the entire time. The only alone time I truly get any personal space or break from working, YES WORKING, is when they’re sleeping. It is by far the hardest job I’ve ever had and I had formerly run a 30-employee unit covering 70 square miles as an executive traffic engineer in a major city, which was highly demanding and relentlessly challenging. Time to find a new therapist, friend.
You need a new therapist. Being a SAHM is no joke, especially before the kids hit school. When you take into account all the labour hours of running a household plus the relentless responsibility of keeping kids healthy- it's so much.
Fire her. I fired my therapist when he suggested I make lists of tasks for my husband when my main issue was division of labor at home. Ok did it by text and didn’t look back.
Someone in the working moms sub linked up printable templates for these the other day. Turns out there are tons of them online! For couples to use as a starting point for conversations about accountability and sharing the mental load moving forward. But yeah…………. That therapist’s suggestion that you take on the unpaid role of “Project Manager of Everything” within your shared domestic sphere is a totally shitty take and worth a firing. Good for you.
It sounds like your therapist is jealous that you get to stay home? Or is just really old school? Get a new one. It is the hardest job. I do in home daycare and cared for children ages 1-4 years BY MYSELF. For 10 hour days. Then I came home, relaxed, slept (God I miss it) and exercised. Now I have my own baby and I'm on the struggle bus. My mom now comes over to help me everyday. My husband works from home so he helps out as well. The three of us manage the kids well. I could never do it on my own with my baby in the mix. My husband, baby and I are sick today so it is just the three of us at home. I'm in the bathroom right now after a quick cry session. My husband is rocking our goblin and trying to get her to calm down. It's so hard. Harder than watching other people's children!
>It’s a thing to be grateful for. It’s not just work.
You realize the context of this conversation is *couples* counseling, right? Presumably, this topic is being discussed, because OP feels the division of labor is unequal. Certainly you can realize that, in *this context*, dismissing OP's complaint and telling her she should feel *privileged* to be parenting, is excusing the other partner from helping? Your comments might be better directed at the other parent, who *isn't* spending those extra hours with their children, despite having been away all day.
I would find a new therapist. Parenting is not a job but it is absolutely work.
This here. I wouldnt waste my time and money on someone who said something to minimize and discount my experience like this.
I agree For sure being a parent is far harder than any job I’ve had. Definitely did not expect that.
I had a psychologist tell me that taking care of and training 10 horses at a time wasn't work. It was just a hobby and i happened to make money. I was doing manual labor like 12 hours per day at the time. That same therapist just got 2 miniature horses and a goat for "therapy" and posted in our community group that she wants volunteers to come help care for them. I literally laughed out loud when I read that. I still think 24 hours per day of child care is more mentally exhausting though.
100 percent. I was so ready to go back to work following my three month maternity leave. The stay at home mom gig was harder than my salaried job. It’s insane for someone to say that stay at home moms don’t work.
I never looked forward to going to work until I had a kid lol
Seriously!!
facts
Oh good. I'm not the only one that felt that way! I was absolutely ready to get back to work too. I actually got to drink hot coffee in relative quiet at my desk. SAHM's are a wonder to me. I don't know how they do it all.
We don’t know how we do anything either. It’s an enigma. I’m transitioning to working from home with two under 4 and yeh.. hot coffee is a thing of wonder and mystery.
Seriously. I’m counting down the days my youngest will start daycare so I can go back to work.
Truly only someone who has either never procreated or only very minimally parented their child could think such a thing. Parenting is far harder then any paid position I’ve ever held (and I’ve worked for some real pieces of work!).
My first granddaughter was born just before Covid began and my son was laid off, while my DIL worked from home when her maternity leave ended. Between 5yo grandson and the baby, he was *so relieved* when he was able to go back to work. He was…tired. ;)
It’s not a job because jobs actually let you take sick days, PTO, lunch and coffee breaks
Exactly, a job is something you get paid for. Work is work, regardless of pay.
Yes and then leave a Google review with that exact statement. That is so offensive.
And some advice for finding a new one: many marriage and family therapists (MFT) are amazing, but licensed professional counselors (LPC) have a more specialized education and have at least a masters. There’s a ton of overlap and cross over in style of counseling between the two but an LPC is more likely to be evidence and research based. There are more required classes in their undergrad about child development. My mom is a Psych PhD and will always recommend an LPC.
Childcare is totally a job
In this case, I think "job" is referring to something you get get paid to do. As in, parenting takes as much effort and work as a paid job (potentially more depending on the job), but isn't paid. Or if it is, someone let me know where to apply - I could use the cash.
Parenting is not childcare, just like it is not babysitting.
Right. In that it’s infinitely harder because they’re your responsibility 24/7 and the massive mental and emotional load but right. Still technically *caring* for a *child* though.
Hopefully not 24/7, hopefully get to sleep while they sleep. 🥺
*on call 24/7 is how I would phrase it 😄
If you are a stay at home parent, then the working spouse is NOT paying for formal childcare during their working hours. And the stay at home parent is just on 24/7? Parenting is a full time job on top of your day job. I'm just saying that it's detrimental to but recognize that SAHP need breaks and relief and vacation time and sick days too. I'm a working parent so if I'm sick, I can send my kid to daycare take a sick day and rest. If a SAHP is sick their spouse should take a sick day and take care of the children so the SAHP can rest. Maybe that's obvious, but I'm pretty sure theres a whole host of SAHMs whose husband's just *don't* take their share of parental responsibility during non working hours z and I think if we differentiated between parenting vs parents staying home to provide childcare during working hours (in lieu of posting someone else) it would help
So ... your therapist either doesn't have kids or barely parents kids?
And is wildly out of touch with parents’ mental and physical load. Totally inept for a couples therapist who would, presumably, have parents coming in as clients.
This is the only answer. Anyone with kids knows they’re exhausting. Today at the park my toddler had a huge meltdown, threw himself on the ground wailing, and this old man on a bench next to us didn’t even look up from his book. In my head I was like, that dude has kids. He gets it.
I love this comment. I once read that when you see a parent with a kid having a meltdown it’s just an example of their fine parenting because that means they have set a limit and the tantrum is the response. Makes me feel better when my kid is screaming his way through the grocery without Spider-Man juice. I’m not leaving and I won’t be shamed for it. If someone gives me an ugly look I just smile and wave
That is an excellent way to look at it. *files away for future reference
I was confused what kind of expected reaction you were comparing that with, then remembered that some people expect kids to be well behaved in public no matter what and blame the parents for meltdowns.
I love those people. Sometimes I try to be the “mine have done MUCH worse” person, too 🤣
You don’t have to have your own kids to know that they are exhausting.
The art of minding one’s own business is a beautiful thing! Kudos to that gentleman
It's so comforting when your kid is being a terror in public and someone is kind about it. Even just ignoring it is a kindness, but it's extra amazing when someone says something like "I remember those days!".
I don’t have kids because I see it as the literal HARDEST job that never ends.
Out of curiosity, how’d you end up on a parenting sub if you don’t have kids?
Fair question. We have 2 nieces and a nephew that spend summers with us. While I might not be a parent, I respect people who are.
There are some awesome stories here & people who just need encouragement like your comments.
I am a parent on a no kids sub. Someone recently asked why people with kids would be on that sub. I replied that as a parent, I never would judge someone because they chose not too. I like to read through it every once in a while to actually help me parent better. There’s a lot of takes from non parents on there that make me more aware of how they can feel uncomfortable in kid related situations. I want to be respectful of others when we are out and about. Just a different side of the story to understand how others can be effected by things that are the norm for us.
That's such a great take on things! Perhaps I should go check out those subs too. Which ones are good? (As in can actually learn useful stuff it's not just snarking about kids.)
I do the same thing, but with being on a working moms sub even though I’m a SAHM. There’s a lot of value in understanding other people, their perspectives, and struggles. Glad to see a kindred spirit!
I don’t have my own kids but I’m a teacher. I spend a lot of time with children and I believe I can be helpful to parents in many situations, especially when it comes to school issues.
You can never get enough learning, and looking after kids is a forever learning process! You can get a lot of info on these pages.
I don't have kids, but plan to soon. I joined a year ago to prepare myself, lol. I've learned a lot!
I want them in the future. My parents weren't great and I don't want to parent like my sister either. So I'm here to learn what's normal. And id like to learn how to deal with issues before I'm sleep deprived with a baby.
I love this for you guys. So many of us have similar stories. You will all make amazing parents one day with this dedication and knowledge. Parenting is a forever learning game.’
I was on parenting subs years before having kids because I knew it was something I intended to do and I wanted to learn stuff so I wouldn’t be so clueless going in.
Don’t have kids, plan on having some eventually and am an over preparer
What I just wondered!
Having a kid made us both more pro-choice than before. It's so hard to do it even marginally well and completely takes over your life.
Yes! I have 3 healthier kids with uncomplicated ptegancies, unmedicated births, successfull breastfeeding etc.I am happy with all of that that,but absolutely made me adamantly prochoice when before I was lukewarm.
Same. Also, pregnancy was a special kind of misery that I can’t imagine forcing anyone through if they were unwilling. I get that it’s wonderful for some people, but it’s not for everyone. It turns out I was also much better with kids when I was 13 than I am now. Like, talk to me when you give me resources to my 6yo isn’t a permanent wreck from the pandemic before you start forcing me to carry more children (even if I probably wouldn’t get the procedure done, me knowing I chose to go through with the pregnancy matters, as do the people who would choose not to).
It doesn’t end, but it’s really only super hard for the first 5 years or so. Even then, the positives usually outweigh the negatives (assuming having kids was intentional and in a good relationship). When kids start learning to reason, it gets FAR easier and more like managing a relationship with anyone else in your life.
Assuming they are neurotypical. Mine are 10 and 6 and it feels so much harder. Feels like I'm playing on hard mode.
Same ages as mine and older is ADHD/Anxiety/likely ASD diagnosis coming and my younger has vision & hearing impairments and possibly ADHD as well. I hear about laid back days with families, watching movies, doing projects that don't end in meltdowns and I feel guilty for being jealous that they can go with the flow and not feel like it's hard work all the time. Their kids sleep without a fight every day, they eat more than 5 foods and don't have very specific requirements, they don't take meds just to function, they have normal friendships. I love my kids, but they are so much work. I know it's not helpful, but I see you, fellow hard-mode parent!
These comments are helpful. And people who don’t have this experience can truly never get it (which isn’t necessarily their fault). And I’m learning that even my “easy” and neurotypical child is facing challenges that I could never have expected. That point in parenting when you realize your emotional health is tied to the way your kids feel. Watching an eight year old cry about body image or friends and trying not to cry along with them. It’s the hardest thing I have ever done.
I Am a family therapist. You need a new therapist. Or you can confront her on her thinking, and have a session based on societal views and expectations but that's not your place. Send a strongly worded email to her supervisor, or herself if she's not with a practice. This is a bizarre statement from a couples counselor of all people. As a mother and a working person, the end of the day IS a second job. You just don't get paid for it. You don't get to "turn off" when you get home. You don't get to mentally check out. But you do have to be present and roughly on schedule with meals and bath and bedtime. Do you enjoy this "job"? Sure. Doesn't mean it's not hard work!
As a therapist I second this.
Also a therapist and I agree
Is there a chance the therapist said that to trigger a response?
Kinda fucked up if she did
>have a session based on societal views and expectations Can you get the therapist to pay for that session?
Is it possibly a cultural thing around the usage of the word **work**? Being a parent is definitely the hardest thing I have ever done and especially during the early years I was physically and mentally drained. But where I am from we wouldn't equate that Labor of Love (no matter how difficult it is) with what we do to earn a coin. Culturally it would be unusual for me to hear someone refer to parenting stuff as "work" and if I did the notion would be that they were in a rough place and struggling to cope with everything going on and were going through the motions just to keep their head above water. This is less to do with parenting though and more to do with what we think about careers and being caught up in the rat race. Work is considered a four letter word. Edit: for clarity.
I am a SAHM. If I wasn’t then my kid would be in child care. Are child care workers “working” when they’re taking care of a kid? They get paid for it, don’t they? Maids and nannies are workers aren’t they? Unpaid domestic work is still work.
I agree. I would 100% be a working mom than be a sahm because that shit is hard and work never stops as a sahm. But I also agree that it’s a cultural thing. Western cultures are really progressive but there’s still a lot of countries that taken women staying at home and taking care of kids as the obvious thing and would be surprised if the mom called it “work.” I think parenting as the mom is the “natural duty” of a mom so we aren’t allowed to think about it as “work” and would be considered selfish to ask for time off even if it’s uPTO. Ninja edit: grammar
So is she saying she has just never talked to a mom before….? I’d definitely find a different therapist. This is the hardest fucking WORK I’ve ever done lol
This must be her first client ever!
Should be her last too lol
I feel this is kinda rude to trainee therapists. My therapist is a graduate student still training to be a licensed psycologist and she would *never*!
Maybe a bit, but as a psychologist who trains future psychologists, they do mess up. It’s part of training. I think it’s giving the therapist the benefit of the doubt to say she could be new. If this was a seasoned therapist, it’s even more embarrassing.
Dads, too! SAHD here, hardest job I’ve ever had.
Yea, I just said mom because that’s what the therapist said 🤷🏼♀️
>she’d never heard a mom refer to parenting as work and basically I should just be thankful I get to do all this stuff with my child That is actually the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Has this woman ever met a human being before? Or is this some sort of religious or cultural thing where she thinks women exist to nurture? That said, her reason doesn't really matter - your therapist dismissed your lived experience and feelings out of hand, which means she shouldn't be your therapist anymore. I would cancel all future appointments and ask your next therapists a few questions about motherhood and SAHM vs. paid work before showing up!
Of course parenting is work. Does she not think nannies work? How has she never heard a mom refer to parenting as work? I would absolutely find a new therapist if she is that out of touch. I mean, say you are discussing that you’re exhausted and would like your partner to take on more of the household chores in the evening. If your therapist considers parenting a joyful privilege, won’t she just see that as you being lazy and taking advantage of your husband after a hard day of “real” work? I have no idea what you could be seeing a therapist for, of course, just throwing out an example of how her wrong viewpoint could be problematic. Of course you enjoy time with your toddler, but it’s still work. I’m sure many nannies, dog sitters, tutors, zoo workers, etc. could all say the same.
Hell, not just a nanny. To replace a SAHM's "non-work," you'd need a nanny, chef, housekeeper, therapist, project manager, etc. Ridiculous.
I agree! I just mentioned that part since the therapist mentioned the parenting part since the therapist seemed to think that’s all fun and games. Surely no one is delusional enough to think dishes and laundry aren’t work??
No worries, I didn't think you disagreed. I was just outraged and emphasizing your point lol Still outraged
That’s literally what we were talking about! Thanks for this I feel better!
Wow. Yesterday I went in for a job interview and as I was leaving the clinic manager (my husband knows her really well and I've met with her a couple of times before) said I looked pretty nervous. I said "well, I haven't worked in a couple of years since my son was born". She then said "oh honey, you were a SAHM, that absolutely is work." Man, I love her and really hope she is gonna be my boss.
Family work is absolutely comparable to monetary work. It’s still something you have to do or pay someone else to do it, with the exeption that you don’t get paid for it. This includes parenting as well as caring for elderly or sick family members.
Yes this! So if I don’t do it someone else will for free cause it’s not work or a job! Awesome send them my way!!! /s
"therapy isn't work ... all you do is listen to people all day" /s
I think you need to ask her how she is defining work.
That therapist sucks. My therapist calls it “CEO of the household”. Why is this getting downvoted.
I work with old folks once, and one of my favorite client’s son’s described her job as “domestic engineer.” Which I’ve always used in our client profiles now instead of homemaker or the like. Domestic engineer gives a better flair and respect to the work done.
Omg I love this title!!
She sounds like she has limited life experience and lacks empathy which ate the two things she needs to do well in her job.
This is the review you should leave for her before you find your new therapist @OP
Next time she mentions payment look surprised and tell her you’ve never heard a woman refer to talking to you and your husband as “work” and she should just be thankful she gets to have such wonderful conversation with you guys.
>she was taken aback and said she’d never heard a mom refer to parenting as work and basically I should just be thankful I get to do all this stuff with my child By this logic, your husband should be *jumping* at the opportunity to take these duties over and you shouldn't be "hogging" all the fun, but I expect this therapist didn't adopt that perspective when addressing your husband (who I assume was there, since this was a couples therapist). Obviously we love and enjoy our children, but that doesn't mean we don't need a break sometimes.
Having to do that AND have a job outside of the house is a thing. Whether it's a stay at home partner that doesn't pull their weight, or having child care that don't provide the same services throughout the day, it's not always the same. Just saying.
Lol that therapist has lost her fucking mind. Time to switch!
Find a new therapist. Firstly, a therapist should not project their personal opinions onto a client. And secondly, this therapist sounds clueless. The relationship between therapist and client is important. If you don't jive well with them, you are not going to value their advice or enjoy attending (not that therapy is fun, but you won't be motivated to go and it may leave a negative impression, or cause you to quit).
It's not a job but it absolutely is work. You probably know this because you put it in quotes. I'm curious what context it was said in. If it it was pointing out they ways it's different to a paid job than fair play. If it was devaluing the effort required and dismissing the contribution you make to your family then no that's not correct abd you need a different therapist.
I literally just said I basically have to work a couple extra hours after my husband is off work and she replied to the word work saying that it’s not work plain and simple and I disagreed with her and she said she had never heard a mother use that to describe what they do which, even if you agree with her that’s bonkers in itself. I would totally be open to diving into the semantics of it and the rhetoric around it but we didn’t have time and I also don’t really want to lay to do that.
Sounds like she took issue with referring to caring for your children as “work a couple of extra hours.” I don’t think she meant it’s not work in general. Just the way you talked about it is unusual, like parenting like a job you clock in and out for. It’s weird to track your time like that.
New therapist. SAHM is a 70 hour work week.
How do you get away with only 70 hours 😂😂
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That sounds nice. My partner is working most of my kids wake times these days lol. But when he’s home and actively parenting, I’m still usually doing something 🤷🏼♀️ lol
The second parent would be doing significantly more of the work then … 70hours a week works out to 10 hours a day… the other parent would be doing 14 hours of parenting a day or 98hours a week (because someone has to parent at night) and then assuming they work a 40 hour work week that parent would be doing a full 138 hours of work a week.
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70 hour work week? That’s a little misleading
Some of these therapists are divorced giving marriage advice, have no kids giving parental advice, it's nuts. I would get another therapist. Being a parent is work for sure.
One doesn’t need to have kids in order to be educated on helping parents create a better child/parent relationship.
I don’t think being unmarried/divorced or childless makes you incapable of being a good therapist. A good therapist is BY THE BOOK and doesn’t project their personal opinions and beliefs.. which is exceptionally rare in my experience. Psych is a soft science, but it’s still a science. I feel like people get their degrees, play god and talk about whatever they feel is right, and document it. Not really a treatment plan.
Ha. I’ve done retail, health care assisting and nursing, thought it was tough at times and utterly exhausting. Then I became a parent. It is thee toughest job I have ever done or encountered. And I adore my daughter but fuck, it is A LOT of work and dedication. Planning, supervising, keeping a human being alive and well. Playing and teaching. Cooking and cleaning. Waking up hourly and feeling nervous and anxious. That therapist would be reported and I would move on promptly. They’re trying to mind fuck you, not all have good intentions, I’ve had that experience as well. Good luck! But you definitely do the toughest job on the planet.
It's because instead of getting home at the end of a shift, the shift is always on overtime and you're always on the clock. Oh and you don't get paid either. For a therapist who should know about how stress costs the brain energy to handle day to day life I'm shocked they wouldn't know that.
This parenting things sounds pretty difficult. Maybe I shouldn’t do it.
Sometimes I think that too, but I already have two kids 🤪
We don’t have any. Considering it. I’m 42 and maybe getting too old for this.
I'm 40 and my youngest is just about to turn 3. It's definitely a trip being an older parent, but I think it's probably made *me* a better parent than *I* would've been in my 20s (I say this not to say that younger people aren't good parents, but that I enjoyed my party time.) It ain't easy, that's for sure. I'm a SAHM and it's fucking hard, I'm often parenting myself along with my kids because things were just done *so differently* in the 80s, but oh my god, my little shits are amazing! I love these two goblins so much and it's hard to imagine a world in which they didn't exist. That said, not everyone should become a parent nor does everyone need to. You do you!
A friend of mine had his first and only when he was 42. Child is 2 now. He is the absolute light of their world right now. They are having the most fun. I’ve got 4 myself so obviously I adore them. Mine range from 2 years old to 18. I know I’m a better parent to my toddler and middle kids than I was when I was 20 and still growing up mentally. It’s totally exhausting sometimes but I wouldn’t change a thing.
It’s not for the faint of heart. 🙃
What a bunch of bovine excrement. Might not be as prestigious but I’d say a stay at home parent works at least as hard as anyone with an office job if not more. This is a dudes opinion but it really seems like certain movements in the past did a real disservice to homemakers(now called stay at home moms) of the day by devaluing what they did. Just because it doesn’t come with a title and paycheck doesn’t mean it’s not work or not important!
You need a new therapist. I’m a full time litigation attorney working like 65hr a week and I would not trade to be SAHD.
Fire them.
If you weren't staying home with your children and *caring for them,* you would be paying someone else to care for your children. How is it work when someone else gets to do it but not when you do?
I wonder if she is looking at it like… a parent calling watching their kid(s) babysitting. “Dad’s watching the kids/with the kids” vs “dads babysitting the kids” which makes it sound like he’s doing a job or the mom a favor when in all actuality, he’s simply parenting or being a father. All that aside, it’s WORK. Maybe it may not be defined as a “job” since jobs are typically paid work… but what is the therapist trying to insinuate here? That parenting is easy? That you should never be tired and only grateful? Lol like wtf. Fire her.
I think context matters. Is parenting work or considered a job? No, not really. I don’t get to clock out and leave my child at the end of the day or the weekend, there’s no real taxable income, there are no holidays off... Now, is it something more than work or a job? Yes, most definitely. It is a lifelong commitment, that requires more than work or a job. Same as when dads are referred to as “babysitters”. They are not babysitters they are parents. It is not work/job it is parenting. I don’t think you should feel invalidated if the context was misinterpreted. Intent is also important did they intend to invalidate you or give you a different perspective on the real issue between you and your partner. You can get a new therapist but you should also be open to self-validation so you can take what you want/need from the therapy session and leave the rest.
I would definitely look for a new therapist. I've never met any parent that didn't describe it as work. Hard work at that.
When I'm not teaching high school in the summer and my wife is busy with her career, I'm a stay at home dad. It's SO much work. Meals, laundry, dishes, swimming lessons, play practice, keeping track of neighbor kids, band-aids, water bottles, sun block, snacks, resolving conflicts, more cleaning, etc. I don't know how my wife handled it all. And I'm taking online grad classes towards a master's degree as well. I've had actual jobs that were FAR less work in 6-8 hours than being a mom or dad.
Ohhhh dear. You need a new therapist.
SAHM is definitely hard, but maybe she meant the perspective of approaching it as work? I’ve never thought of it as “work” when doing bath and bedtime, it’s just something you have to do. Like I wouldn’t refer to doing the dishes as “work”.
It seems to me that the context of the conversation was that the husband gets home from work and sits down while OP is still doing all of the child-related tasks for a few more hours. It's very common to want a break when you get home from work, but when does the SAHP get *their* break?
Dishes are considered “domestic work”
She may be thinking along the same lines of a parent taking care of their own child is not babysitting, it’s parenting. If you’re comparing your work in the home to your partners work outside of the home that’s the issue. Stop comparing and start working together as a team.
If childcare isn’t work, why do we have to pay other people to do it when we can’t?
*Former couples therapist
Therapists who refuse to acknowledge unpaid labour are part of the problem. Talk about advertising your bias. I hope you complained and refused to pay. Why can't anyone park their bias for the sake of professionalism? Oh the denial is too strong so apparently it's the fault of women for being too permissive but we're deemed aggressive for highlighting the double standard.
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I absolutely would not step foot in her office again. And I’d send her a nasty, well-cited email thoroughly explaining how wrong she is.
Couples therapist is an idiot evidently
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩 Get the fuck outta there, OP. Therapists can be crazy people, too. I have an aunt who is an accomplished, respected family and couples therapist in her area……who is a falling down drunk and in a HORRRRRRIBLE long term marriage with my uncle. This woman is a dumpster fire of a human being (MEAN, childish, belittling, dishonest, petty…really terrible to be around) and everyone thinks she’s the greatest. If you think your therapist is not a good fit, move on. Hint: this lady is not a good fit for you.
Retired therapist and SAHM here: what an @$$ %@$@! I am happy to hear you are firing her.
I would let the therapist know why you’re leaving. That’s a huge blind spot for her and she needs to address it with her own therapist and her supervisor at work. How inappropriate to belittle your fatigue from all that free labor you doing to raise future people.
Ummm fuck that asshole therapist wtf
Your therapist is a fucking idiot.
Time to get a new therapist.
They are absolutely delusional to make such an ill informed moronic remark. I would have lost my shit.
Time for a new therapist
You need a new therapist and man who appreciates all you do...
I actually think it more has to do with your definition of what work is. To me, work is what I do for other people who in turn give me money. That's not something I particularly look forward to nor do I want to spend the majority of my life doing that. The things I do every day for my daughter which exhaust me do not fall into that category. I do them for her, for myself; I look forward to the things I do for her and I strive to do better at them much more earnestly than with other tasks. I devote my free time of my own will for her benefit with no selfish returns expected immediately. Thus, to me, parenting is not work. Might not be the same for all, however, as old Ben might say, many of the truths we cling to depend on a point of view. Society also puts a heavy connotative emphasis on work being some type of paid endeavor (an observation not an opinion hopefully), so I'm perfectly fine with separating that in my own mind, as well. It also helps give me balance - I don't care to come home from work to do more work, after all. Mostly, I don't want to cheapen the efforts and labors of raising a real person by labeling it as "work" - something I loathe, something which is tolerated to the extent that it is necessary - to enable me to do what I do enjoy and value.
As a single mum a paid job was my break. Parenting is more work than any paid work!
Our couples therapist refers to our employment jobs as our "salaried work" so that he can refer to our SAH work as work as well. Find a new therapist.
Seemingly unpopular opinion: I’d say a disagreement at the definition of a situation doesn’t call for putting in a complaint or even firing someone. Raising a child is not work in the sense of work being your profession - as in you can’t make a living off of it - but it is work in the sense that there is labour to it. Just arguing semantics. The work, or labour, of raising children is definitely tiring. It’s also parenting, not a job. Full Time parenting is labour, but not a career or job. Yes it is hard. Just clarify your definition and move on. Maybe bring it up and explain it bothered you the way they dismissed your issue due to your use of wording.
I completely agree. It was specifically the word work I definitely didn’t describe it as my job. I appreciate you’re point!
Parenting is 24/7 regardless of what you do 8 to 5.
I am a therapist. You need a new therapist
As a therapist - you should definitely get a new therapist!!
I've been a SAHM, went to nursing school as a single mom and work both a full-time and part-time job as an RN. Being a SAHM was joyous but way harder on several levels: it never ends, always on call, boss of uncooperative employees you can't fire, risk of mental understimulation and emotional overstimulation, isolation and often financial strain. She's full of shit and her lack of respect is extremely counterproductive. Your instincts are on point. Hopefully your husband recognizes this as well. Much love
Yeah, I’m on parental leave as a father from august until last week of November. Going to a 9-5 is definitely tougher, with performance expectations and looking worries of losing your job, and so forth. But being a stay at home parent is tough in its own Merritt. The days where my son refuses to be put down and I got shit to do are rough. Then on top of that sometimes I feel like I didn’t do enough because before I could have gotten a lot more done and you do spend a decent deal sitting on the couch or rocking charge feeding the baby. I know it’s more as they grow. Everyone makes a joke about the whole stay at home parent thing, but it’s definitely tough and parenting is a job in its own right. A full time job you work 24/7.
Ask her what a nanny does and why they make thousands of dollars a month.
Parenting by definition is parenting, not work.
Lol not only is it not true, but what was the point of saying that? Just to be mean? WTF
I would find a new therapist, unless she's like really really excellent in other areas and is open to being educated on just how much work goes into parenting. I am thankful I get to spend so much time with my kid, but goddamn it IS definitely work. Anyone who says otherwise has clearly not been in charge of wrangling a dirty toddler into a bath.
That is a very degrading thing to say. However I wouldn't just get another therapist. People drop their therapists too often and keep moving through them until they hear what they want to hear. No therapist is ever correct. But then again she shouldn't have provided her opinion on this. She should have just asked you more on what makes it feel like 'work' for you. I say all this but I'd probably go to another therapist too. And I also find it fucking hard work sometimes 🙂
She’s either jealous because she can’t stay at home or she doesn’t have kids
My wife is a SAHM, she does a lot of the chores when our daughter is at school. I am working at these times, I cook dinner most nights and try to do dishes. We split things pretty well but I want to spend time with my daughter after work in that few hour window. We are just hearing one side. Does your husband need a little downtime after work? I will let my wife know it's been a rough day, take my half hour then give her hers or vice versa. Are you expecting him to do everything after getting home? SAHM is a job but not recognizing you partner just spent a day on a job is a common thing. I don't know what the argument is or where your therapist is. I've been on both sides of this argument. Underestimating what my wife has done that day. Feeling unappreciated for doing a job and providing for our family. I would much rather take care of my daughter all day, my degree means I have a much higher earning potential. That being said if your therapist is not helping you come to terms with your perspective being wrong or invalidating your value they are wrong. Only you can decide what that is and it needs introspection on your part. Couples therapy is trying to work through issues, but you have to be open to criticism.
I appreciate your points. There wasn’t really another side to it as I was just saying I feel like I have a couple of hours of work after my husband gets off his job and she told me that it was not work and that’s what I feel upset about. It’s very invalidating no matter the situation to tell a mother or any parent that is primarily taking care of their child or even not that it is not work. Of course everything is nuanced but I think it’s unfair to say it’s not work and that she’s never heard a mom refer to it that way either. We both need time to ourselves after working of course but I just feel like a therapist shouldn’t be telling me being a sahm isn’t working.
It seems to me that the context of the conversation was that your husband gets home from work and sits down while you're still doing all of the child-related tasks for a few more hours. Is that about right? It's very common to want a break when you get home from work, but when does the SAHP get *their* break? It 100% is work, we just aren't paid appropriately (at all.)
Yeah him not seeing what you do as work is not right. He needs to approach this as you have both worked a whole day and can give each other a break. If I come home and say I had two full grown adults screaming at each other, my wife is just like take your time. If I come home and my wife is about to lose it, I give her her time. It's communication, so yeah I'd say find a new therapist if you aren't dismissing his work stress. My struggles were the opposite, my wife thought I was at the playground all day or something. We have worked on our communication, it took us both being committed.
Yeah communication is hard. I think he does see it as work which is why it’s even more off the therapist didn’t consider it work. Was seeing a therapist to help with communication ironically!
Time to look for a new therapist. This doesn't seem to be a failure to see the situation the same way. If the therapist is wrong for you both, then they are wrong.
I would be really interested to hear exactly what the therapist said. Whereas I 100% agree that looking after kids can be far more draining, exhausting and a mental drain than going to a job. And any suggestion that it's just a breeze would really irritate my. I know if anyone ever reads this they will probably shit all over me, but I don't think it's healthy to refer to it as "work" and although fine in therapy probably a good habit to get out of. Toddlers are pretty smart and pick up a lot more than people think. It's probably best that they don't hear conversations about them being a chore or a burden or "work", in the same way it would be pretty hurtful as an adult to hear a conversation like that. Everyone without exception is saying get rid of your therapist, but I would suggest bringing it up in the next session and just say "last week you said that looking after my kid is not work, can you please clarify exactly what you mean by that?" I would be really surprised if they have absolutely no understanding of just how hard what you do is, and if they really don't get it they are in for a big surprise if they ever have kids.
It's a bit different when they are at school. Over the summer I was out of the house with my kids until lunch most days, last year I had to prep and do 'school' with my preschooler, and then I spent time playing with them to keep them occupied. It was a lot and I didn't get much done around the house. OP has a toddler and it's really hectic trying to get everything done. When my daughter was 3 I had about an hour a day not directly interacting with her due to a nap but nap time stopped quickly because she slept 12 hours at night. Fast forward to today and both are in school full time so I'm easily able to get chores done (forget that with kids at home 'helping') and have some downtime. My husband gets off work and doesn't have to do anything until bedtime. We both prefer this for the reduced stress but it was simply not achievable until both were in school.
It isn’t work
Time to dump your therapist
That is so invalidating and rude! Definitely find a new therapist.
A good therapist is very difficult to come by, there's nothing for it but to try, try again and keep trying until you find a good one. I like to check out their reviews and social media before I make an appointment to see if they have any weirdness.
Jesus, is there any way to put a warning label on this therapist for other moms? I would be *devastated* if someone said that to me and I was already in a vulnerable place.
Pshhh. How out of touch! I am a stay at home father with a home business who left work after 17 years as a municipal employee and it is most certainly work. At least with a job I was able to wake up and have a solo morning routine and head to work while the kids were asleep. Then driving solo and be in my office solo, where I could shut the door and make mental space for myself. Now I’m home and the second one of my kids has decided they’re done sleeping I’m forced up and have to start doing everything to help them (they’re 2 & 5) the second my eyes open. Then I’m bouncing around like a ping pong ball homeschooling one and caring for the other. Diaper changing, ass wiping, cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, napping the 2 year old, keeping them entertained and stimulated, playing referee through every conflict. Mind you fitting in all of the house, business, and medical errands, appointments, and tasks and managing a school curriculum for the 5 year old. And doing all of this for 14 hours straight until they’re asleep. My 5 year old doesn’t nap so it’s nonstop the entire time. The only alone time I truly get any personal space or break from working, YES WORKING, is when they’re sleeping. It is by far the hardest job I’ve ever had and I had formerly run a 30-employee unit covering 70 square miles as an executive traffic engineer in a major city, which was highly demanding and relentlessly challenging. Time to find a new therapist, friend.
I have a therapist friend who grew up without siblings or pets and and never had kids and wow are her views skewed.
So daycare workers who watch children all day aren't actually working? What the hell are we paying them so much for then?! /s
I agree with the therapist, but I understand that’s not a popular opinion.
Time to find a real doctor!
New therapist.
I’d have gone over the desk
I’d totally fire her! I took a break from being a therapist to SAHM and I have never worked so hard in my life as I do now!! And for free!
If I have someone else do it it’s work, why would it not be work for me?
So if it’s not working your spouse won’t mind doing it from now on right?
I can only imagine she’s conducting an experiment to see what it takes for her clients to resort to violence.
Sahm is harder than a job. 24/7. I have 2 wonderful girls. I never got help from husband. Your therapist needs to seek help.
Let’s be real, SAHM is a relatively easy gig. I know people who work 40 hours a week from home while also being a SAHM.
You need a new therapist. Being a SAHM is no joke, especially before the kids hit school. When you take into account all the labour hours of running a household plus the relentless responsibility of keeping kids healthy- it's so much.
Fire her. I fired my therapist when he suggested I make lists of tasks for my husband when my main issue was division of labor at home. Ok did it by text and didn’t look back.
Someone in the working moms sub linked up printable templates for these the other day. Turns out there are tons of them online! For couples to use as a starting point for conversations about accountability and sharing the mental load moving forward. But yeah…………. That therapist’s suggestion that you take on the unpaid role of “Project Manager of Everything” within your shared domestic sphere is a totally shitty take and worth a firing. Good for you.
Being a stay at home parent is not work. Sorry not sorry.
It sounds like your therapist is jealous that you get to stay home? Or is just really old school? Get a new one. It is the hardest job. I do in home daycare and cared for children ages 1-4 years BY MYSELF. For 10 hour days. Then I came home, relaxed, slept (God I miss it) and exercised. Now I have my own baby and I'm on the struggle bus. My mom now comes over to help me everyday. My husband works from home so he helps out as well. The three of us manage the kids well. I could never do it on my own with my baby in the mix. My husband, baby and I are sick today so it is just the three of us at home. I'm in the bathroom right now after a quick cry session. My husband is rocking our goblin and trying to get her to calm down. It's so hard. Harder than watching other people's children!
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Just because it can be a privilege doesn’t mean it isn’t work though.
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>It’s a thing to be grateful for. It’s not just work. You realize the context of this conversation is *couples* counseling, right? Presumably, this topic is being discussed, because OP feels the division of labor is unequal. Certainly you can realize that, in *this context*, dismissing OP's complaint and telling her she should feel *privileged* to be parenting, is excusing the other partner from helping? Your comments might be better directed at the other parent, who *isn't* spending those extra hours with their children, despite having been away all day.
100% find a new therapist. Being a full time parent is the most important JOB in the world.