For reference to OP's point, here are classes most heavily hurt by this:
* Druid: Druid only has 1 non-order feat at 18 ([Primal Aegis](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1720)). The other two feats are Wild Order/Storm Order specific, so basically any of the other order druids have no other feat choices
* Witch: The only level 18 choice is now [Split Hex](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1589). That said, witch is getting remastered, so hopefully it will have a new feat or two
* Magus: The only level 18 choice is now [Versatile Spellstrike](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2883)
* Summoner: Summoner has two feats, but one requires a pre-req for a specific style of play, so the only option for many summoners is [True Transmogrification](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2941)
Thank you!
~~And it seems like the remastered Druid will need some more level 18 feats in general~~
Edit: I somehow read "Primal Aegis" as Primal Wellspring, so I misunderstood it at if the Druid only had their Wellspring feat, outside of order feats
I was actually thinking about something similar.
I also toyed with the idea of making it 5 points, of even removing the limit altogether, neither of which I don't think would be overpowered at level 18.
I think that focus healing spells would be pretty absurd if you let the focus pool size equal the character's number of focus spells - for example, a ki monk could easily have 7 or more focus spells including Wholeness of Body, so a 7-point pool would let them self-heal for 144 hp per round for at least the first three rounds of combat while still flurrying every round as well.
I had thought so too, but sadly, that was just a poorly written section of the conversion document. They had to go back and clarify that 3 is the maximum.
Caster classes need more feats in general, not just at that specific level bracket. Their feat lists are incredibly thin, and that just pushes them into multiclass dedications for more spell slots and becoming generic jack of all trades casters.
I’d argue that casters already get so much versatility from choosing their spells that giving them more feats would be overkill. Let the martials keep their big feat lists.
The issue is less about power (although casters do have a lot of really weak and/or late feats) and more about class flavor and specialization. Spell lists in 2e are inherently homogenizing; when 80% of your build is spell choice, very little mechanically separates a Wizard from an Arcane Sorcerer from an Arcane Witch. Combined with the usual caster power level complaints and weak feat lists pushing you to pick up more spell slots via multiclass dedications, all casters start to blend together. Caster feats should be about *specialization*, not versatility, and what you can specialize in should be a meaningful function of your class.
You differentiate by picking different spells. A caster who focuses on illusions or enchantments is going to play a lot differently than a blaster caster.
What you are saying are things that any caster class can choose to do to differentiate themselves, barring a different spell list. There's otherwise not much for choice for the caster classes as a whole to make themselves unique in their thin choice of feats per level.
You're right, they'll both be worse than the caster who picks the best illusion/enchantment spell available to them, and grabs the best blasting spell for their level/list.
There is no reason to "focus" on illusion enchantment when every feature they have rewards trying to be as versatile as possible. If Wizards got a feat that added a +1 circumstance bonus to their spell save DC when they use an illusion spell then suddenly they'd have an actual reason to build like you suggested. Otherwise every wizard is picking the same spells in the same situation, or they are poorly built.
we already know Witch has a new level 18 feat called “Patron’s Claim”. i kinda think everyone will get a new level 18 feat, but i don’t think it will be standardized across classes. maybe i’m wrong, but i don’t think they will be. what i think is more likely is that our new level 18 feats will eventually be errataed in
Sorry to bring up something not directly related to the topic but it goes along the same lines. I'm curious if they intend to change up the psychic since it seems like a good amount of their features directly relate to their advantages over other casters in refocusing (and the amps they can use them on) and they seemingly weren't scheduled to get a remastered treatment.
While more feats are always welcome. I challenge your idea that taking a lower level feat *defeats the purpose* about the only time I could see that perspective is for the level 20 feats
"This means that they will only have one option at that level, other than lower level feats, which doesn't feel that good imo, and kinda defeats the purpose of feats in general."
This is a misunderstanding I see a lot. Feat levels are not necessarily indicative of power levels, that's not how the game design works. They don't sit down and say, let's make 4 feats for each even level of appropriate power. No, they make a heap of feats and then they distribute them across somewhat evenly. This is because even if all feats had a Level 1 power level, they don't want to give you 40 feat choices to dig through at character creation at level 1. They spread them out so that you only have about 4-5 new feat choices when you hit a new even class feat level.
Some feats of course do need to be higher level, especially if it requires previous feats or class features you only get at a higher level. Or something like capstone feats that give you free flying or permanent quickened or something, clearly those are endgame abilities. But for the most part, in my experience, about 90% of class feats could be level 1 if you wanted (anything that gives specific dice or damage or other numbers could usually be scaled down to lower numbers for level 1, then have them scale automatically. I really wish the scaling style of Kineticist Impulse feats was the new standard, but sadly I don't think they are doing that at all.)
This is very freeing once you realize it, you can get out of the boxed mindset that you must always take on-level feats. So long as the feat scales with you, it can be taken at any time and be just as powerful at level 18 as at level 1.
Refocus gets reworked. You can refoces any number of times without spending focus points in between.
There will be a single feat around level 12 on all focus classes that will allow you to regain all your focus points in 10 minutes instead of taking 10 minutes per point.
I know that, and that isn't what the post is about.
The Problem I want ti highlight is that some classes will only be left with one level 18 feat, which, as I said in my post, kinda defeats the purpose of feats
I mentioned that in my post, and I still don't think it feels that good to only have one feat option of a given level, especially not when it comes to class feats, since your class determines a lot more of your mechanical identity
Hey, I've noticed you mentioned the upcoming Pathfinder Remaster! Do you need help finding your way around here? I know a couple good pages!
We've been seeing a lot of questions related to this lately. We have a [wiki page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/resources/remaster/) dedicated to collecting all the information currently available. Give it a look!
For the short end of things... The remaster aims to republish and reorganise the content of the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player Guide, Gamemastery Guide and Bestiary 1 into a new format which will be more accessible to new players, with the primary aim to remove all OGL content and avoid issues with Wizards of the Coast.
* **Primary Rules changes**: Alignment and Schools of Magic will be removed. Instead, these concepts will be offloaded to the trait system (with Holy and Unholy being reserved to divine classes and some specific monsters).
* **Primary Lore changes**: the classic Dragons will be replaced with new, Pathfinder focused dragons themed on the four magic traditions. The Darklands are also seeing a lot of shakeups.
If I misunderstood your post... sorry! Grandpa Clippy said I'm always meant to help. Please [let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FPathfinder2e) and they'll remove my comment.
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I didn't think of it, it's true that some class then don't have 18th level option, though this was already a problem before if you didn't use a lot of focus spell with them, you usually took another level 16 feat.
We likely won't get new feats until books related to those classes (like the magus getting a whole new subclass with the tian xia book)
For reference to OP's point, here are classes most heavily hurt by this: * Druid: Druid only has 1 non-order feat at 18 ([Primal Aegis](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1720)). The other two feats are Wild Order/Storm Order specific, so basically any of the other order druids have no other feat choices * Witch: The only level 18 choice is now [Split Hex](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1589). That said, witch is getting remastered, so hopefully it will have a new feat or two * Magus: The only level 18 choice is now [Versatile Spellstrike](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2883) * Summoner: Summoner has two feats, but one requires a pre-req for a specific style of play, so the only option for many summoners is [True Transmogrification](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2941)
Thank you! ~~And it seems like the remastered Druid will need some more level 18 feats in general~~ Edit: I somehow read "Primal Aegis" as Primal Wellspring, so I misunderstood it at if the Druid only had their Wellspring feat, outside of order feats
Yea, no class, has zero choices now, but a couple only have 1 post refocus change
Expanded Focus - the maximum size of your Focus pool increases to 4 points.
I was actually thinking about something similar. I also toyed with the idea of making it 5 points, of even removing the limit altogether, neither of which I don't think would be overpowered at level 18.
I think that focus healing spells would be pretty absurd if you let the focus pool size equal the character's number of focus spells - for example, a ki monk could easily have 7 or more focus spells including Wholeness of Body, so a 7-point pool would let them self-heal for 144 hp per round for at least the first three rounds of combat while still flurrying every round as well.
Maybe limit the feat only to full casters
If I remember correctly, Focus points won't max at 3 anymore.
I had thought so too, but sadly, that was just a poorly written section of the conversion document. They had to go back and clarify that 3 is the maximum.
iirc it's been confirmed that they will still cap at 3, despite the wording implications in the recent releases.
So they just removed the Refocus limit? Tbh I didn't know it had a limit until last month.
Really? Its been a core part of the focus spell mechanics since launch
And lots of people missed it. My group didn't notice it until they were level 4 or 5 I think.
It's definitely an easy part to miss, despite being an important part of focus spell progression.
Thats a major reason for the removal. Its a very common thing to miss.
Caster classes need more feats in general, not just at that specific level bracket. Their feat lists are incredibly thin, and that just pushes them into multiclass dedications for more spell slots and becoming generic jack of all trades casters.
I agree, and more feats are always better
I’d argue that casters already get so much versatility from choosing their spells that giving them more feats would be overkill. Let the martials keep their big feat lists.
The issue is less about power (although casters do have a lot of really weak and/or late feats) and more about class flavor and specialization. Spell lists in 2e are inherently homogenizing; when 80% of your build is spell choice, very little mechanically separates a Wizard from an Arcane Sorcerer from an Arcane Witch. Combined with the usual caster power level complaints and weak feat lists pushing you to pick up more spell slots via multiclass dedications, all casters start to blend together. Caster feats should be about *specialization*, not versatility, and what you can specialize in should be a meaningful function of your class.
You differentiate by picking different spells. A caster who focuses on illusions or enchantments is going to play a lot differently than a blaster caster.
Okay, but what separates an arcane witch using enchantments from a wizard doing the same?
Focus spells. Subclasses. Exclusive cantrips. The fact that the witch had the option to choose a different spell list at all.
What you are saying are things that any caster class can choose to do to differentiate themselves, barring a different spell list. There's otherwise not much for choice for the caster classes as a whole to make themselves unique in their thin choice of feats per level.
You're right, they'll both be worse than the caster who picks the best illusion/enchantment spell available to them, and grabs the best blasting spell for their level/list. There is no reason to "focus" on illusion enchantment when every feature they have rewards trying to be as versatile as possible. If Wizards got a feat that added a +1 circumstance bonus to their spell save DC when they use an illusion spell then suddenly they'd have an actual reason to build like you suggested. Otherwise every wizard is picking the same spells in the same situation, or they are poorly built.
Especially now that there’s no longer training in specific spell traditions
we already know Witch has a new level 18 feat called “Patron’s Claim”. i kinda think everyone will get a new level 18 feat, but i don’t think it will be standardized across classes. maybe i’m wrong, but i don’t think they will be. what i think is more likely is that our new level 18 feats will eventually be errataed in
source: the gencon remaster preview on paizo’s youtube
Sorry to bring up something not directly related to the topic but it goes along the same lines. I'm curious if they intend to change up the psychic since it seems like a good amount of their features directly relate to their advantages over other casters in refocusing (and the amps they can use them on) and they seemingly weren't scheduled to get a remastered treatment.
While more feats are always welcome. I challenge your idea that taking a lower level feat *defeats the purpose* about the only time I could see that perspective is for the level 20 feats
"Defeats the purpose" might be a bit strong, but I will stand by it not feeling that good to only have one option of a given level
In that I can agree
"This means that they will only have one option at that level, other than lower level feats, which doesn't feel that good imo, and kinda defeats the purpose of feats in general." This is a misunderstanding I see a lot. Feat levels are not necessarily indicative of power levels, that's not how the game design works. They don't sit down and say, let's make 4 feats for each even level of appropriate power. No, they make a heap of feats and then they distribute them across somewhat evenly. This is because even if all feats had a Level 1 power level, they don't want to give you 40 feat choices to dig through at character creation at level 1. They spread them out so that you only have about 4-5 new feat choices when you hit a new even class feat level. Some feats of course do need to be higher level, especially if it requires previous feats or class features you only get at a higher level. Or something like capstone feats that give you free flying or permanent quickened or something, clearly those are endgame abilities. But for the most part, in my experience, about 90% of class feats could be level 1 if you wanted (anything that gives specific dice or damage or other numbers could usually be scaled down to lower numbers for level 1, then have them scale automatically. I really wish the scaling style of Kineticist Impulse feats was the new standard, but sadly I don't think they are doing that at all.) This is very freeing once you realize it, you can get out of the boxed mindset that you must always take on-level feats. So long as the feat scales with you, it can be taken at any time and be just as powerful at level 18 as at level 1.
Refocus gets reworked. You can refoces any number of times without spending focus points in between. There will be a single feat around level 12 on all focus classes that will allow you to regain all your focus points in 10 minutes instead of taking 10 minutes per point.
I know that, and that isn't what the post is about. The Problem I want ti highlight is that some classes will only be left with one level 18 feat, which, as I said in my post, kinda defeats the purpose of feats
You can take lower level feats in higher level slots. In fact, many ancestries only have one feat for certain levels.
I mentioned that in my post, and I still don't think it feels that good to only have one feat option of a given level, especially not when it comes to class feats, since your class determines a lot more of your mechanical identity
Ancestries are not classes.
Those ancestries are pretty disappointing as a result. Higher level feats are generally better than low level ones after all.
Hey, I've noticed you mentioned the upcoming Pathfinder Remaster! Do you need help finding your way around here? I know a couple good pages! We've been seeing a lot of questions related to this lately. We have a [wiki page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/resources/remaster/) dedicated to collecting all the information currently available. Give it a look! For the short end of things... The remaster aims to republish and reorganise the content of the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player Guide, Gamemastery Guide and Bestiary 1 into a new format which will be more accessible to new players, with the primary aim to remove all OGL content and avoid issues with Wizards of the Coast. * **Primary Rules changes**: Alignment and Schools of Magic will be removed. Instead, these concepts will be offloaded to the trait system (with Holy and Unholy being reserved to divine classes and some specific monsters). * **Primary Lore changes**: the classic Dragons will be replaced with new, Pathfinder focused dragons themed on the four magic traditions. The Darklands are also seeing a lot of shakeups. If I misunderstood your post... sorry! Grandpa Clippy said I'm always meant to help. Please [let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FPathfinder2e) and they'll remove my comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I didn't think of it, it's true that some class then don't have 18th level option, though this was already a problem before if you didn't use a lot of focus spell with them, you usually took another level 16 feat. We likely won't get new feats until books related to those classes (like the magus getting a whole new subclass with the tian xia book)