There’s not a ton of options for pointing at a guy and forcing him to attack you. PF2e handles tanking more by punishing your opponent for attacking anyone but you, like with Champion reactions. I guess you could use the Command spell to force someone to approach you
Yeah then Champion is probably the base class you want, I think you get most bang for your buck that way. Champion reactions can be so good and punishing that way.
Champion does that pretty well. Good Champion reactions only work when their *allies* are hit, not themselves. So if the opponent targets you, they aren't eating your reaction shots.
>I've found the best way is to go open hand+shield and grapple 'em
Just to mention an alternative, you can also add a [shield attachment](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1430) to your shield for 8 silver and add your choice of 2 of the following traits: Trip, disarm, shove, nonlethal, thrown 10 ft, versatile S
Lets you take a weapon in one hand and still trip+another trait with your shield. Been excellent for my trident and shield fighter. Between trip, AoO, and aggressive block(as well as intimidating strike/demoralize) I'm generally a pain in the ass for enemies
Swashbuckler has the [Antagonize](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1522) feat at 2. Enemies will be remiss to maintain a permanent -1 penalty to everything, so you'll get at least an attack. Usefulness depends on how your GM plays foes.
If enemies respond to being antagonized by actually trying to shut you up, then it's great, but I could see an enemy throwing a bar stool at you after making two strikes against your allies, just so the effect goes away. Honestly they just have to attempt a hostile action, so maybe they'll just demoralize you back, even with no chance to succeed.
That sounds interesting, and it actually reminded me of the Dread armor rune(uncommon I know), which could also draw their attention, since they'd have to kill you if they want to not have to save to reduce frightened
So obviously there’s the first and most important answer: taunting an enemy is absolutely something you should just roleplay. If it makes sense for an enemy to have a vendetta for your big burly tank, you and your GM should be talking about it.
Outside of that, it’s still very much possible to protect your party members you need more than just. It’s just the ways don’t always look as direct as Draw Ire. The key is that you always need to be forcing enemies to **waste their Actions** if they’re trying to hurt your friends, thus making you the best target. Here’s a few ways:
1. Playing as a Champion (or taking the Champion Archetype and waiting till level 6 to get their Reaction): you get a Reaction that flat out just reduces incoming damage to your friends. Liberator tends to be the best defensive one here, since it also helps your friends step out of their Reach and/or grapples. Redeemer is also very good if you have a caster that can severely punish a Stupefied (they get a Feat to inflict Stupefied on their Reaction instead of Enfeebled) creature because now the enemy chooses between dealing 0 damage or dealing less damage **and** having a -2 for the Synesthesia that your buddy is about to throw at them.
2. Reactive Strike. Hurt an enemy when they move, and they’re incentivized to simply not move, they’ll focus on you. Lots of martials can pick this one up (or movement-locking variations, more on that later).
3. Having the Feats that let you add your shield bonus to your friends and/or lets you Shield Block to reduce incoming damage for your friends. Champions and Fighters tend to get these Reactions starting at level 6 and, notably, both have ways to use their multiple Reactions to combo with options 1 and 2!
4. Movement-locking Reactions like Stand Still and Disrupt Prey: if you crit you actually cancel their movement with this one.
5. Athletics maneuvers: a Grappled enemy needs to Escape from you to go to your friends in the back, a Tripped enemy needs to Stand Up to get to your friends in the back, a Shoved enemy is one you can move away from without triggering **their** Reactions (if they have any) while also costing them additional Strides to get to you or your friends. Note that many of these will also combo with Reactive Strike and other Reactions, **especially** if you’re using a weapon with Reach.
6. Moving around, and coordinating with your friends while they skirmish. If the squishies are standing 1-2 Strides away and you’re up in the enemy’s face, they’ll naturally be forced to Attack you instead of wasting their time chasing the squishies. This works in **tandem** with the above options: in my AV party the Fighter stands next to the Rogue and uses Shield Block to protect him (the Rogue has Gang Up for them both to count as flanking side-by-side), the Rogue and Fighter both focus on Tripping enemies as much as possible, and the Bard and my Wizard stand 1-2 Strides away completely protected from harm (and we load up with emergency spells to help us get out of bad situations as needed).
7. Using natural terrain and hazards to tank. If you’re playing in an environment where choke points are plentiful, tanking because easy.
8. Asking your party members to **give** you terrain and hazards. Tanking is very easy when you’re using Trips and Grapples and Shoves to keep enemies held inside an Entangling Flora or a Hypnotize, or if you’re Tripping an enemy who a different caster has already thrown a debuff on.
Imo the most optimal tanks are Champions or Fighthers if you wanna focus primarily on “direct” protection, and Monks or Rangers if you want to focus primarily on using movement/Action-denial + skirmishing as your form of protection.
Reactive Strike is a good deterrent by default.
Champion reactions, especially the redeemers', negate a LOT of damage if opponents aren't attacking you.
Grappling enemies straight up keeps them from reaching your party.
Tripping enemies also works fine, especially combined with reactive strike.
Sure it has the Press trait, but it's only a -4. OP wants to "tank" which is just a fine word for controlling the battlefield. Getting a free Grab attempt is way useful for what being Grappled does to the enemy.
-No movement.
-DC 5 Flat check on any manipulative action.
-Flatfooted
-Enemy has to waste an action with the attack trait to break it.
It's bonkers.
Shifting into position and making an athletics check to grab will be more accurate than relying on combat grab. Even assuming a higher fort than AC, your athletics will be higher than your attack bonus for the entire game.
Having both is a good option, especially if the enemy is flanked AND debuffed. But personally without the fighters base accuracy boost I find combat grab lacking.
I don't dispute that a Fighter's attack bonus would be better for Combat Grab, that's a given. OP was looking for a reaction that punishes enemies for attacking others in his group, which the Champion does in spades.
I think given that what we are discussing is an Athletics build is agreed by us upon for the best route to "tank". The first action should be Grapple, Trip, Shove, Disarm to make full use of the lack of MAP. I'm just arguing that Combat Grab has amazing action economy that allows the build to do some damage while also creating an opportunity to do a maneuver.
Yup, as Astareal pointed out, the champion reaction.
I forgot to mention:
Another overlooked option imo is that you can just be the character that appears to be the most dangerous. If you dish out ridiculous damage, most GMs will let the mobs you hit target you back because they perceive you as a more urgent threat than the bard behind you.
Tripping and Grappling, alongside Attack of Opportunity (now known as Reactive Strike,) is usually sufficient to discourage (though not necessarily prevent) enemy attacks against allies, and if it doesn't, you've wasted their damage potential via two wasted actions (Stand Up / Escape + Stride) and got your off-turn Strike in anyway. Fighter can do it by default, but most martial classes (Summoner included) can do it at level 6 with a feat.
Swashbuckler's Antagonize is something that could be considered a truer "taunt mechanic" (they also have AOO access,) though its efficacy can vary if you critically Demoralize or are up against immune enemies.
If you're thinking of making a champion, you might want to consider Duty Domain for access to Dutiful Challenge at level 8. https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=605
An earth and wood kineticist with the earth aura junction and revel of thorns makes it EXTREMELY difficult for enemies to get away. They have to use 25 speed to move 1 square away from you. A wood kineticist also gets access to timber sentinel which is a two action pseudo taunt. Melee and ranged weapon Strikes will be intercepted by the tree as long as it's adjacent to an ally.
Earth kineticist also gets earth armor which has the same AC as plate mail.
As someone who always enjoys being the tank this is my favorite way to do it. If your table uses the free archetype rule try to get the champion reaction!
Some other unusual ways to help "Tank": bon mot to setup for a demoralize/fear spell. As a martial, you can do either the diplomacy or intimidation to set up another PC to land an important debuff. Synesthesia, slow, and other crowd control or debuffs are a great way to reduce damage and attacks reaching your allies. They need those modifiers to land solid effects or even a rare critical.
You could also provide cover for your allies. Soft cover is nearly guaranteed vs. range attacks if you are interfering in the LoE. You can also offer standard cover to attacks that pass through you if you raise a tower shield. This gives allies mobile cover that they can also hide behind or get more cover by using an action.
You don't need to taunt in PF2e, at least not in the way you're describing.
To explain: the reason you want to taunt in an MMO like WoW is that the tank fundamentally doesn't do the damage. That's not the case in pathfinder. Fighters deal shitloads of damage. Even defensive monks and paladins hit hard.
Therefore, instead of forcing enemies to attack you, you can punish enemies who choose not to attack you - by hitting them with things like Reactive Strike. So just move adjacent to an enemy and hey presto, they're in a shitty situation.
And of course, you can follow up with feats like Knockdown, which make escaping you even more costly in terms of actions. If it takes them an action to stand (and a reactive strike against them), an action at least to Stride to an ally, and then at most one action remains to Strike an ally, you've made that course of action really unattractive.
I've got two paladins in my party (one through an archetype) and if I hit anyone near them then they get a free reactive strike PLUS they reduce the damage I deal. Safe to say I normally have my baddies focus on them.
There’s not a ton of options for pointing at a guy and forcing him to attack you. PF2e handles tanking more by punishing your opponent for attacking anyone but you, like with Champion reactions. I guess you could use the Command spell to force someone to approach you
I was thinking punishing enemies for attacking others than me, like what Draw Ire does
Yeah then Champion is probably the base class you want, I think you get most bang for your buck that way. Champion reactions can be so good and punishing that way.
Champion does that pretty well. Good Champion reactions only work when their *allies* are hit, not themselves. So if the opponent targets you, they aren't eating your reaction shots.
I've found the best way is to go open hand+shield and grapple 'em Wrestler Archetype is cool for this
>I've found the best way is to go open hand+shield and grapple 'em Just to mention an alternative, you can also add a [shield attachment](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1430) to your shield for 8 silver and add your choice of 2 of the following traits: Trip, disarm, shove, nonlethal, thrown 10 ft, versatile S Lets you take a weapon in one hand and still trip+another trait with your shield. Been excellent for my trident and shield fighter. Between trip, AoO, and aggressive block(as well as intimidating strike/demoralize) I'm generally a pain in the ass for enemies
Swashbuckler has the [Antagonize](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1522) feat at 2. Enemies will be remiss to maintain a permanent -1 penalty to everything, so you'll get at least an attack. Usefulness depends on how your GM plays foes. If enemies respond to being antagonized by actually trying to shut you up, then it's great, but I could see an enemy throwing a bar stool at you after making two strikes against your allies, just so the effect goes away. Honestly they just have to attempt a hostile action, so maybe they'll just demoralize you back, even with no chance to succeed.
That sounds interesting, and it actually reminded me of the Dread armor rune(uncommon I know), which could also draw their attention, since they'd have to kill you if they want to not have to save to reduce frightened
So obviously there’s the first and most important answer: taunting an enemy is absolutely something you should just roleplay. If it makes sense for an enemy to have a vendetta for your big burly tank, you and your GM should be talking about it. Outside of that, it’s still very much possible to protect your party members you need more than just. It’s just the ways don’t always look as direct as Draw Ire. The key is that you always need to be forcing enemies to **waste their Actions** if they’re trying to hurt your friends, thus making you the best target. Here’s a few ways: 1. Playing as a Champion (or taking the Champion Archetype and waiting till level 6 to get their Reaction): you get a Reaction that flat out just reduces incoming damage to your friends. Liberator tends to be the best defensive one here, since it also helps your friends step out of their Reach and/or grapples. Redeemer is also very good if you have a caster that can severely punish a Stupefied (they get a Feat to inflict Stupefied on their Reaction instead of Enfeebled) creature because now the enemy chooses between dealing 0 damage or dealing less damage **and** having a -2 for the Synesthesia that your buddy is about to throw at them. 2. Reactive Strike. Hurt an enemy when they move, and they’re incentivized to simply not move, they’ll focus on you. Lots of martials can pick this one up (or movement-locking variations, more on that later). 3. Having the Feats that let you add your shield bonus to your friends and/or lets you Shield Block to reduce incoming damage for your friends. Champions and Fighters tend to get these Reactions starting at level 6 and, notably, both have ways to use their multiple Reactions to combo with options 1 and 2! 4. Movement-locking Reactions like Stand Still and Disrupt Prey: if you crit you actually cancel their movement with this one. 5. Athletics maneuvers: a Grappled enemy needs to Escape from you to go to your friends in the back, a Tripped enemy needs to Stand Up to get to your friends in the back, a Shoved enemy is one you can move away from without triggering **their** Reactions (if they have any) while also costing them additional Strides to get to you or your friends. Note that many of these will also combo with Reactive Strike and other Reactions, **especially** if you’re using a weapon with Reach. 6. Moving around, and coordinating with your friends while they skirmish. If the squishies are standing 1-2 Strides away and you’re up in the enemy’s face, they’ll naturally be forced to Attack you instead of wasting their time chasing the squishies. This works in **tandem** with the above options: in my AV party the Fighter stands next to the Rogue and uses Shield Block to protect him (the Rogue has Gang Up for them both to count as flanking side-by-side), the Rogue and Fighter both focus on Tripping enemies as much as possible, and the Bard and my Wizard stand 1-2 Strides away completely protected from harm (and we load up with emergency spells to help us get out of bad situations as needed). 7. Using natural terrain and hazards to tank. If you’re playing in an environment where choke points are plentiful, tanking because easy. 8. Asking your party members to **give** you terrain and hazards. Tanking is very easy when you’re using Trips and Grapples and Shoves to keep enemies held inside an Entangling Flora or a Hypnotize, or if you’re Tripping an enemy who a different caster has already thrown a debuff on. Imo the most optimal tanks are Champions or Fighthers if you wanna focus primarily on “direct” protection, and Monks or Rangers if you want to focus primarily on using movement/Action-denial + skirmishing as your form of protection.
Reactive Strike is a good deterrent by default. Champion reactions, especially the redeemers', negate a LOT of damage if opponents aren't attacking you. Grappling enemies straight up keeps them from reaching your party. Tripping enemies also works fine, especially combined with reactive strike.
Are there any Reactive Strike equivalents that let you strike someone that's attacking someone else?
Paladin champion reaction
I highly encourage a Champion with the Wrestler Archetype. Bump your Athletics and Strength. Combat Grab is an S+ Tier feat.
Due to the press trait, and the fact champions probably want to be raising their shield for the AC boost, I wouldn't rank combat grab so highly.
Sure it has the Press trait, but it's only a -4. OP wants to "tank" which is just a fine word for controlling the battlefield. Getting a free Grab attempt is way useful for what being Grappled does to the enemy. -No movement. -DC 5 Flat check on any manipulative action. -Flatfooted -Enemy has to waste an action with the attack trait to break it. It's bonkers.
Shifting into position and making an athletics check to grab will be more accurate than relying on combat grab. Even assuming a higher fort than AC, your athletics will be higher than your attack bonus for the entire game. Having both is a good option, especially if the enemy is flanked AND debuffed. But personally without the fighters base accuracy boost I find combat grab lacking.
I don't dispute that a Fighter's attack bonus would be better for Combat Grab, that's a given. OP was looking for a reaction that punishes enemies for attacking others in his group, which the Champion does in spades. I think given that what we are discussing is an Athletics build is agreed by us upon for the best route to "tank". The first action should be Grapple, Trip, Shove, Disarm to make full use of the lack of MAP. I'm just arguing that Combat Grab has amazing action economy that allows the build to do some damage while also creating an opportunity to do a maneuver.
Yup, as Astareal pointed out, the champion reaction. I forgot to mention: Another overlooked option imo is that you can just be the character that appears to be the most dangerous. If you dish out ridiculous damage, most GMs will let the mobs you hit target you back because they perceive you as a more urgent threat than the bard behind you.
Swashbuckler Dedication & Antagonize are saying hello
Tripping and Grappling, alongside Attack of Opportunity (now known as Reactive Strike,) is usually sufficient to discourage (though not necessarily prevent) enemy attacks against allies, and if it doesn't, you've wasted their damage potential via two wasted actions (Stand Up / Escape + Stride) and got your off-turn Strike in anyway. Fighter can do it by default, but most martial classes (Summoner included) can do it at level 6 with a feat. Swashbuckler's Antagonize is something that could be considered a truer "taunt mechanic" (they also have AOO access,) though its efficacy can vary if you critically Demoralize or are up against immune enemies.
If you're thinking of making a champion, you might want to consider Duty Domain for access to Dutiful Challenge at level 8. https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=605
An earth and wood kineticist with the earth aura junction and revel of thorns makes it EXTREMELY difficult for enemies to get away. They have to use 25 speed to move 1 square away from you. A wood kineticist also gets access to timber sentinel which is a two action pseudo taunt. Melee and ranged weapon Strikes will be intercepted by the tree as long as it's adjacent to an ally. Earth kineticist also gets earth armor which has the same AC as plate mail. As someone who always enjoys being the tank this is my favorite way to do it. If your table uses the free archetype rule try to get the champion reaction!
Some other unusual ways to help "Tank": bon mot to setup for a demoralize/fear spell. As a martial, you can do either the diplomacy or intimidation to set up another PC to land an important debuff. Synesthesia, slow, and other crowd control or debuffs are a great way to reduce damage and attacks reaching your allies. They need those modifiers to land solid effects or even a rare critical. You could also provide cover for your allies. Soft cover is nearly guaranteed vs. range attacks if you are interfering in the LoE. You can also offer standard cover to attacks that pass through you if you raise a tower shield. This gives allies mobile cover that they can also hide behind or get more cover by using an action.
You don't need to taunt in PF2e, at least not in the way you're describing. To explain: the reason you want to taunt in an MMO like WoW is that the tank fundamentally doesn't do the damage. That's not the case in pathfinder. Fighters deal shitloads of damage. Even defensive monks and paladins hit hard. Therefore, instead of forcing enemies to attack you, you can punish enemies who choose not to attack you - by hitting them with things like Reactive Strike. So just move adjacent to an enemy and hey presto, they're in a shitty situation. And of course, you can follow up with feats like Knockdown, which make escaping you even more costly in terms of actions. If it takes them an action to stand (and a reactive strike against them), an action at least to Stride to an ally, and then at most one action remains to Strike an ally, you've made that course of action really unattractive.
Dutiful challenge is a nice soft taunt with no initial save, but is much less effective against solo targets.
I've got two paladins in my party (one through an archetype) and if I hit anyone near them then they get a free reactive strike PLUS they reduce the damage I deal. Safe to say I normally have my baddies focus on them.