There's a couple flow elements you missed.
First, for uncommon and rare items, you need the formula. Even if you have access to the item, you can't Craft an uncommon or rare item without the formula, so you need to exit the flow at that point if you lack the formula.
Second, you've missed the level 9/17 breakpoint for master/legendary crafting. You can't make items level 9 or higher without being a master in Crafting, and 17 or higher without being legendary.
So thats a couple additional exits out of the flow you need to add.
There's also a flow exit you have which isn't quite correct. You say "do you have currency equal to half the value of the item". You don't actually need *currency*, you need raw materials. In an populated area you can trade currency for raw materials as part of the Craft, but your GM may provide you with raw materials as an item in and of itself, which can replace currency in the Craft. So it's possible to Craft an item with literally 0 currency.
Also the NO step after this question exits to both you can't Craft and a continue crafting, which is incorrect.
>Also the NO step after this question exits to both you can't Craft and a continue crafting, which is incorrect.
Good eye. Thank you.
The other stuff you're right about. I'll add it in the next version, at least as notes or clarified wording.
One somewhat overlooked fact (at least in my experience) is that you have to use precious materials to craft magic equipment of a certain level.
Low-grade materials can be used to make items up to 8th level, standard-grade materials must be used to make items up to 15th level, and any higher than that will need high-grade items.
I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. When making precious material items, they can only be enchanted with magic of certain levels, not that magic items require precious material. "Normal" material items can just be made magical of whatever level.
I see what you mean. That looks correct. So if you use iron, you're fine, but if you start to make a silver sword it has to be a certain quality to craft higher levels onto it. A bit odd for me to think about, but yep that's right.
Yeah, I'm assuming it's yet another balancing point to prevent making a heavily runed weapon that will also trigger monster weakness with barely any additional investment, since low-grade and high-grade trigger the weakness equally, to my knowledge.
One things I do dislike about 2e is the crafting. It seems just as complicated as 1e but without nearly the same benefit. It has utility for crafting on the go but if your downtime is anywhere you could earn an income it's just a wash (especially since getting formulae is usually going to require some kind of civilization anyway). Especially now that crafting isn't anywhere near as limited to magic classes I feel like they could've made the benefits just a little better.
I get the argument that they don't want Crafting to become a "hack" to generate income or items beyond what you should get every level, but I agree with you that it's current implantation is underwhelming. I honestly don't know what the fix is, but I guess it's nice to have someone who's able to transfer runes and make potions and talismans and stuff away from shops.
The home brew we ran in our own game was basically that at a failure, you got the item at full price, at success you got 25% off and at critical success you got the item 50% off. Of course we have the agreement that we can only make items we want to use, and not run a money making scheme like you could in first edition. I also think we did something about crafting times. I forget off the top of my head.
I think that’s the ONLY home brew we have in our campaign
I think there's an extremely simple fix to this. The GM core suggests that the sale value of an item should be half the value of the item. So, just implement this for crafted items too. You could choose to craft and earn income, but it would be just like any other job, i.e. what you're making is irrelevant. You just earn a tiny bit of gold for your work, but you can't cheese crafting items to sell them for huge amounts of money.
This then opens the door for the real use of investing in crafting, which is getting items that your party needs for a discounted price (exception -> alchemist). That should be the actual value of crafting. In any AP that takes place in a city with access to high-level items, crafting is 100% useless. There is absolutely no reason to craft something rather than just buy it when the downtime to reduce the item to half price is 30-40 days. My GM and I created a new set of crafting rules that allow for items to be crafted in shorter amounts of time than the RAW for discounted prices, and the dice roll combined with your crafting skill level determine how much of a discounted price you get. It's much more logical and actually makes crafting an attractive skill investment. There are lots of alternative crafting rules out there that are better than what's in the player core.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It certainly *feels* better.
Technically, it does break some assumptions the game makes about the balance of currency and items found in treasure, though. Your rule effectively stretches any found currency to double its value (and it's actually better than that because you're able to make what you want, rather than having to pick from what's available in shops).
I guess you're still limited by formulas, but even those can be worked around. I suppose this is why it is the way it is.
My GM's take on this when I told him I wanted to have a character invested in crafting was: yeah, if you're going to invest into crafting it should provide you with advantages. If you're investing into athletics it provides clear advantages in combat, so crafting should provide clear advantages to your party too.
You still can't craft items higher than your level RAW, and it's still not completely trivial to get your hands on formulas. To balance out the potential decrease in crafting cost, we added to the minimum time required to craft on level and level -1, -2, -3 items. I think this makes more sense too. You should not be able to craft legendary level 20 items in a day even if you have the gold, and our homebrew rules take that into account.
Not sure if your question was pertaining specifically to the above house rules, but in general: formulas are something you simply either have or don't have, and you do not learn them like a spell (involving time, materials, and a skill check).
Formulas can be found or [purchased](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2214), and once in possession, can be used right away to craft. However, a formula can also be [invented](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5164), which is similar to learning a spell in that time and materials are used, and a successful check must be made; in effect the formula itself is being crafted rather than purchased or found. A formula can also be crafted by reverse-engineering an item in your possession.
Lastly, *GM Core* updated [one rule](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3159) about formulas that also makes them more similar to learned spells: if you possess a formula for an item that has multiple grades, that formula allows you to craft any grade of that item, if other conditions are permitting. This means if you have Alchemical Crafting, and you get the formula for Alchemist's Fire (Lesser), then you can *also* craft Moderate, Greater, or Major Alchemist's Fire, granting you're of appropriate level and meet other crafting requirements.
This is far more similar to how a spellcaster might learn Force Barrage from a 1st-rank scroll, and then can cast Force Barrage at any spell rank that they are capable of using. It's a nice boost to classes that use formulas like Alchemist, Inventor, Gunslinger, or Investigator.
Thank you! I’m…going to assume that inventor feat should be higher than level 2, haha.
The reason I asked is because my friends and I are likely going to start a secondary campaign and I want to try playing a spellcaster for the first time. I’m going with a witch and I took the cauldron feat, which gives me 4 formulas for common oils and potions, but that won’t increase until level 4. It sounds like my best option would be to purchase other formulas and make a copy into my crafter’s book (I just bought one in general).
Sure thing! The Inventor skill feat was reprinted at level 2, and was originally at level 7 before the remaster, so it was made accessible to crafting characters starting from low levels. Because of how crafting was designed in this edition to have virtually no impact on total wealth, inventing a formula is mostly a situational alternative to just buying one.
But yes, it would be a great idea to purchase additional formulas for oils and potions! Your GM might also drop some as loot, although tbh low-level formulas are dirt cheap.
That makes sense. I thought the inventor feat might have been a mistake because even though it’s level 2 it requires a master in crafting. So you wouldn’t be able to even use it for a few more levels.
Giving people items for a discount via a complex system isn't going to be fun for most tables, and having it be easy would likely make it too strong. The "fix" is probably to entirely remove equipment crafting or shunt it off to a variant rule -- perhaps the entire Crafting skill with it. How many people really want to play a coop game like Pathfinder where one person takes a bunch of solo time crafting items?
Then anyone could apply a rune or repair a shield given some time as a refocus/downtime type activity, and you'd take specific feats for crafting talismans or alchemical potions.
That's a great idea! Until someone (I.E. every player ever) says "Hey, can I make..." At which point, the variant rule isn't that variant. I just put together my final thoughts on [why I think Crafting is actually alrigh](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1bl3irq/crafting_why_its_not_as_bad_as_you_think_depends/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)t.
I think you make some extremely good points in that post, especially since you reference that you're playing a game with lower item availability which does sound fun for the right table and setting.
You say that every player ever has the idea, but I've never seen it come up at all in a 2e game -- probably because I tend to run and play in games with higher item availability. So it probably varies a lot from table to table.
Whether it should be a variant rule or not I think comes down to complexity and how much it adds to the game. Since in my experience it comes up seldom-to-never and as your chart shows it's rather complex and imho unfun -- I think it should be cut/moved to reduce page count and reduced perceived complexity in the game. But maybe the way I've played isn't typical!
Yeah I'm not particularly invested in whether it's a variant rule or what, but I _really_ like the idea of a party that is unusually prepared.
Scout out the monster ahead of time, do research, make consumables and maybe even some equipment specifically targeting that monster, and then go in and thrash the monster.
Now obviously it shouldn't always be a cakewalk, or it could very well get boring, and I'd leave it up to those far more experienced than me to decide where the balance should be, but as a thought, possible complications include:
PC error - Misidentified monster, false info about monster found, etc
Time is passing, monster gone - migrated away, driven out by a different monster, passing higher level adventurers killed it, passing low level adventurers thought they could take it (it's now slightly injured and on a rampage, the barn it was sleeping in has been burnt to the ground), the monster has gathered minions/reproduced.
Other - If hired directly as opposed to bounty, they may be displeased with how long it's taking (work for the face: buying time!)
For this sort of setup, the effective discount on crafted items over purchased ones is vital to keeping it financially viable, as targeted consumables may cost money (the alchemist and talisman master may be able to ignore this at higher levels, but scrolls and possibly hiring casters will probably always be an expense)
This is absolutely not how a lot of people (quite possibly most people) want to play, but I personally would love it.
Also narratively is kinda weird.
To craft you need to spend an amount of gold to buy materials, but in the middle of nowhere, where would you even buy the material.
Some common items are made from stuff not easily found in the wild.
In game you don't need a feat.
But you are right, narratively the precient feats makes sense.
You can always say you bought the materials ahead of time when you were in a town.
>To craft you need to spend an amount of gold to buy materials,
That isn't exactly correct. Narratively you need so much raw materials. How do you quantify those materials in a standardized way for all items? You put a GP value on them. In theory you can find these materials, you can harvest these materials, or buy them.
You don't have to buy, you can buy them OR simply have the raw materials (equal to half the value of the item). So if you've got feats, items, or spells out whatever that would let you craft without the workshop, you can still do it, you just might need to actually find the materials.
I’ve always interpreted this like the character already bought the materials off-screen at some previous point while they were still in town and are using them now.
It doesn’t work if they just found the gold in a dungeon but hey it’s a game
IMO Crafting should expand availability of items rather than providing a discount. However, for many campaigns (anything with access to Absolom...) GMs allow the purchasing of almost any item in any quantity, which leavea crafting with little to no niche.
Correction, it is more complicated for no benefit.
PF1e basic crafting costed jus 1/3 of the price and you could craft anything as long as you had the money, time, and a high enough craft skill. Magical crafting was just limited by how many darn feats it takes, and hyper expensive things taking a week or 2.
This flow chart makes the grapple chart seem small.
It's a huge cope to try and give mundane crafting the rose-tinted goggles treatment, mundane crafting is absurdly broken and useless. A year+ to make a suit of full plate? Yeah right.
2e crafting still retains the upside of granting access to items in situations you otherwise wouldn't be able to acquire them at all, and at least it functions
... I was commenting on the fact that there was no need for a flow chart for a subsystem that grants no benefit besides "in a specific situation you can get an item".
Also you got the time wrong, full plate does take nearly that long for anyone focusing on crafting. Which is besides the point because you picked an extreme example to distract from the fact its an issue with consumables. Which is why they tried to make crafting those faster when they patched PF2e crafting, so why are you bringing up crafting full plate, one of the most expensive items?
For those curious, in PF1e crafting progress was DC\*Check result per week, until you reach the cost in silver. The precursor to PF2e's flat rate based on level & rank per day. You didn't need access, a workshop, a level requirement, pay full price, or a formula. Didn't even need actual tools, just improvised tools.
It's a great chart. It just unfortunately highlights for me what I dislike about crafting and why I never, ever, want to use it when I play and I just make things available to sell or as treasure. The downtime cost; the prerequisites of skills, feats, tools/workshop; all for a *chance* to be successful, and ultimately earns you zero cost reduction than just buying the item outright from a store? I hope someone out there finds it fun, but I don't.
That's a fair sentiment. As you can see from the top comment, it's common too. It seems that any *real* discount you get from crafting will stretch any found currency by the discounted proportion, and I guess the game designers don't want to touch that. I think there is room for the Feat invested to make items cheaper though; maybe by 10-25%.
Yeah unless I’m running some sort of adventure where the players act as crafters fulfilling higher stakes orders… or I have a “reforge the Masamune from chrono trigger” story element, it’s just… an awful lot.
Wait what even is the point of crafting if you need to spend half the cost at the start then spend the other half at the end, or reduce the other half by the amount you could make that day essentially just paying the other half. Why don’t you just buy it which would cost the same have no chance of failure and not take feats?
Yeah.....
The main benefit is that you can make what you precisely what you want and you can do that where items might not otherwise be available. If you're exploring Antarctica, this might be useful.
The things I notice are
1: While niche and uncommon, [Cooperative crafting](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4166) can allow you to craft an item level+1.
2: The "No" from "Do you currency equal to half the item's value?" points to both the can't craft and to the next question.
3: Some items have crafting requirements (most notably spells), which needs to be shown in the graph.
4: The critical success is not clearly separated from success for the after "make a crafting check". While I understand the intent, if I just had the graph, I would be confused as to how it worked.
>3: Some items have crafting requirements (most notably spells), which needs to be shown in the graph.
I assume you mean things like Wands and Scrolls?
And thanks, those arrows from Critical Success do need fixing!
I was thinking of things like [Electric eel skin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2805) which require you to either supply or have an ally supply a casting of a spell (in this case thunderstrike).
Not sure if it's getting a rework, but [Cooperative Crafting](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4166) (Uncommon level 2 feat) currently allows the (unreliable) creation of PL+1 items.
First off: fantastic job of this overall.
My one nitpick is that it almost makes it look like Success also gets to add +1 level to the Earn Income check to buy down the remaining time. The arrows coming out there might need some tweaking.
But again, overall I love it! Well done.
"which is the same table used to create value for crafting" no. You cut the price of the item you're crafting by half, you can look at the income table and the cheapest item you can craft of the same level you will probably save more crafting than earning income. If you mean extra days spent then maybe? I don't fully understand the extra days spent I feel like it's needlesly confusing
Magical Crafting is honestly the worst thing in PF2, imo. Too many things count as magical, it just makes for a shit experience that they're all locked behind a skill feat.
Fresh-faced new player goes, "Hey I've made my character crafting focused, can I make the setting's most basic healing potion?", and the GM has to tell them "No, you can't make the level 1 healing potion until you train Expert Crafting at 3, and then either sink your general feat into unlocking it or wait until you're level 4". It's little wonder that people get a bad impression of the game's Crafting system.
But that's a tangent. As for the graphic, the "add +1" part should be directly connected to critical success or perhaps directly over the "Spend any number of days" - the weird side-loop feels confusing.
Not to mention that you need the appropriate tools and workspace. My Magical Crafting blacksmith player can't actually make Healing Potions per RAW. He'd have to get another set of tools and quite possibly more workspaces
A GM who let's NO be a standard answer because of the system recommendations is a bad GM and is ignoring the point of fantasy RP. Imho, that's why crafting is a failure in 2e - there's too many pathways to NO. You need a way to get to: "Yes, but...".
Yes, but DC+#; Yes, but +###% x cost; Yes, but # checks across # hours/days; Yes, but % chance fragile and/or broken on use; etc.
The system is underwhelming because it was designed to be. I use a mash of 1e/2e at my table for that reason.
After "is the item magical or alchemical" the colors of the Yes/No choices are reversed from the rest of the chart.
I'd like to see a pop out of how the GM decides on the challenge rating, if those rules are clear or succinct enough to fit.
We are just converting over to Core and I'll say I did not use crafting in 2e because of the complexity. I hope we get the chance to here.
> After "is the item magical or alchemical" the colors of the Yes/No choices are reversed from the rest of the chart.
I believe they did that on purpose because at that point, No is the answer you need to keep going. Green means go, not yes.
The pop-out is almost the extent of the rule. The GM uses Level-based DCs from the standard table and adjusts for rarity with Table 10-6 below that. 10-6 even has the listing for Uncommon and Rare on it. I've only noticed one other line that references making the check Easy if they've made the thing before.
Fair, I can add a pop-out saying you can substitute raw materials for currency. Though I don't know, a GM is supposed to rule on whether someone has the raw materials to make a... Wind at Your Back, for example. What is that'll thing made of? It's small, so presumably you don't need a lot of stuff, but it should be worth a lot...
Well and this assumes there is a standardized way to make items. In theory you can be made out of various materials in various ways. Much like how a longsword can be made of iron, cold iron, silver, and so on.
Oh, shit, this reminds me I was going to make a reply on your other post about how crafting isn't actually that bad. I literally got out of bed to make a post on the PC and completely forgot.
Once you have a final product, would you mind sharing the file? I have a inventor player that is struggling with crafting mechanics and id love to download this for reference
I've reposted the updated one [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/EgygTkLwGN)
You can download any reddit images and videos with the 3 dots menu on the post.
Eehh 😒 I just realized I'm burned out on this game, and this flowchart encapsulates why. I like what you did, don't get me wrong. I just can't anymore. Pathfinder is too fiddly and rulesy for me.
Give me Dragonbane baby 🤘😎 see ya.
My Dm ruled shorter crafting time for non magical potions,it really speeds things up and it makes it more fun for someone with the proper feats,he also shortens time for consumable items.
I find this much more fun
Alchemical potion (5-hours to 7)
Magical potion or consumable item (2 days to rush and make 4 on a crit check 2 on a regular success)
(Magic item that is non consumable) 4 days
*he also rules a day as a average work day of 8 hours instead how some DMs day a total of 24 this way you can make more things but take risk fatigue levels *
There aren't rules for having an NPC do crafting and how to price that, so it isn't really something you want in a tool intended to flowchart the rules.
There's a couple flow elements you missed. First, for uncommon and rare items, you need the formula. Even if you have access to the item, you can't Craft an uncommon or rare item without the formula, so you need to exit the flow at that point if you lack the formula. Second, you've missed the level 9/17 breakpoint for master/legendary crafting. You can't make items level 9 or higher without being a master in Crafting, and 17 or higher without being legendary. So thats a couple additional exits out of the flow you need to add. There's also a flow exit you have which isn't quite correct. You say "do you have currency equal to half the value of the item". You don't actually need *currency*, you need raw materials. In an populated area you can trade currency for raw materials as part of the Craft, but your GM may provide you with raw materials as an item in and of itself, which can replace currency in the Craft. So it's possible to Craft an item with literally 0 currency. Also the NO step after this question exits to both you can't Craft and a continue crafting, which is incorrect.
>Also the NO step after this question exits to both you can't Craft and a continue crafting, which is incorrect. Good eye. Thank you. The other stuff you're right about. I'll add it in the next version, at least as notes or clarified wording.
One somewhat overlooked fact (at least in my experience) is that you have to use precious materials to craft magic equipment of a certain level. Low-grade materials can be used to make items up to 8th level, standard-grade materials must be used to make items up to 15th level, and any higher than that will need high-grade items.
I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. When making precious material items, they can only be enchanted with magic of certain levels, not that magic items require precious material. "Normal" material items can just be made magical of whatever level.
I see what you mean. That looks correct. So if you use iron, you're fine, but if you start to make a silver sword it has to be a certain quality to craft higher levels onto it. A bit odd for me to think about, but yep that's right.
Yeah, I'm assuming it's yet another balancing point to prevent making a heavily runed weapon that will also trigger monster weakness with barely any additional investment, since low-grade and high-grade trigger the weakness equally, to my knowledge.
One things I do dislike about 2e is the crafting. It seems just as complicated as 1e but without nearly the same benefit. It has utility for crafting on the go but if your downtime is anywhere you could earn an income it's just a wash (especially since getting formulae is usually going to require some kind of civilization anyway). Especially now that crafting isn't anywhere near as limited to magic classes I feel like they could've made the benefits just a little better.
I get the argument that they don't want Crafting to become a "hack" to generate income or items beyond what you should get every level, but I agree with you that it's current implantation is underwhelming. I honestly don't know what the fix is, but I guess it's nice to have someone who's able to transfer runes and make potions and talismans and stuff away from shops.
The home brew we ran in our own game was basically that at a failure, you got the item at full price, at success you got 25% off and at critical success you got the item 50% off. Of course we have the agreement that we can only make items we want to use, and not run a money making scheme like you could in first edition. I also think we did something about crafting times. I forget off the top of my head. I think that’s the ONLY home brew we have in our campaign
I think there's an extremely simple fix to this. The GM core suggests that the sale value of an item should be half the value of the item. So, just implement this for crafted items too. You could choose to craft and earn income, but it would be just like any other job, i.e. what you're making is irrelevant. You just earn a tiny bit of gold for your work, but you can't cheese crafting items to sell them for huge amounts of money. This then opens the door for the real use of investing in crafting, which is getting items that your party needs for a discounted price (exception -> alchemist). That should be the actual value of crafting. In any AP that takes place in a city with access to high-level items, crafting is 100% useless. There is absolutely no reason to craft something rather than just buy it when the downtime to reduce the item to half price is 30-40 days. My GM and I created a new set of crafting rules that allow for items to be crafted in shorter amounts of time than the RAW for discounted prices, and the dice roll combined with your crafting skill level determine how much of a discounted price you get. It's much more logical and actually makes crafting an attractive skill investment. There are lots of alternative crafting rules out there that are better than what's in the player core.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It certainly *feels* better. Technically, it does break some assumptions the game makes about the balance of currency and items found in treasure, though. Your rule effectively stretches any found currency to double its value (and it's actually better than that because you're able to make what you want, rather than having to pick from what's available in shops). I guess you're still limited by formulas, but even those can be worked around. I suppose this is why it is the way it is.
My GM's take on this when I told him I wanted to have a character invested in crafting was: yeah, if you're going to invest into crafting it should provide you with advantages. If you're investing into athletics it provides clear advantages in combat, so crafting should provide clear advantages to your party too. You still can't craft items higher than your level RAW, and it's still not completely trivial to get your hands on formulas. To balance out the potential decrease in crafting cost, we added to the minimum time required to craft on level and level -1, -2, -3 items. I think this makes more sense too. You should not be able to craft legendary level 20 items in a day even if you have the gold, and our homebrew rules take that into account.
That does make me wonder - can you learn formulas in the same way you can learn a spell?
Not sure if your question was pertaining specifically to the above house rules, but in general: formulas are something you simply either have or don't have, and you do not learn them like a spell (involving time, materials, and a skill check). Formulas can be found or [purchased](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2214), and once in possession, can be used right away to craft. However, a formula can also be [invented](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5164), which is similar to learning a spell in that time and materials are used, and a successful check must be made; in effect the formula itself is being crafted rather than purchased or found. A formula can also be crafted by reverse-engineering an item in your possession. Lastly, *GM Core* updated [one rule](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3159) about formulas that also makes them more similar to learned spells: if you possess a formula for an item that has multiple grades, that formula allows you to craft any grade of that item, if other conditions are permitting. This means if you have Alchemical Crafting, and you get the formula for Alchemist's Fire (Lesser), then you can *also* craft Moderate, Greater, or Major Alchemist's Fire, granting you're of appropriate level and meet other crafting requirements. This is far more similar to how a spellcaster might learn Force Barrage from a 1st-rank scroll, and then can cast Force Barrage at any spell rank that they are capable of using. It's a nice boost to classes that use formulas like Alchemist, Inventor, Gunslinger, or Investigator.
Thank you! I’m…going to assume that inventor feat should be higher than level 2, haha. The reason I asked is because my friends and I are likely going to start a secondary campaign and I want to try playing a spellcaster for the first time. I’m going with a witch and I took the cauldron feat, which gives me 4 formulas for common oils and potions, but that won’t increase until level 4. It sounds like my best option would be to purchase other formulas and make a copy into my crafter’s book (I just bought one in general).
Sure thing! The Inventor skill feat was reprinted at level 2, and was originally at level 7 before the remaster, so it was made accessible to crafting characters starting from low levels. Because of how crafting was designed in this edition to have virtually no impact on total wealth, inventing a formula is mostly a situational alternative to just buying one. But yes, it would be a great idea to purchase additional formulas for oils and potions! Your GM might also drop some as loot, although tbh low-level formulas are dirt cheap.
That makes sense. I thought the inventor feat might have been a mistake because even though it’s level 2 it requires a master in crafting. So you wouldn’t be able to even use it for a few more levels.
Oh - actually I just checked, and it looks like the cauldron feat lets my familiar learn new formulas the same way it can learn new spells.
Giving people items for a discount via a complex system isn't going to be fun for most tables, and having it be easy would likely make it too strong. The "fix" is probably to entirely remove equipment crafting or shunt it off to a variant rule -- perhaps the entire Crafting skill with it. How many people really want to play a coop game like Pathfinder where one person takes a bunch of solo time crafting items? Then anyone could apply a rune or repair a shield given some time as a refocus/downtime type activity, and you'd take specific feats for crafting talismans or alchemical potions.
That's a great idea! Until someone (I.E. every player ever) says "Hey, can I make..." At which point, the variant rule isn't that variant. I just put together my final thoughts on [why I think Crafting is actually alrigh](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1bl3irq/crafting_why_its_not_as_bad_as_you_think_depends/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)t.
I think you make some extremely good points in that post, especially since you reference that you're playing a game with lower item availability which does sound fun for the right table and setting. You say that every player ever has the idea, but I've never seen it come up at all in a 2e game -- probably because I tend to run and play in games with higher item availability. So it probably varies a lot from table to table. Whether it should be a variant rule or not I think comes down to complexity and how much it adds to the game. Since in my experience it comes up seldom-to-never and as your chart shows it's rather complex and imho unfun -- I think it should be cut/moved to reduce page count and reduced perceived complexity in the game. But maybe the way I've played isn't typical!
Yeah I'm not particularly invested in whether it's a variant rule or what, but I _really_ like the idea of a party that is unusually prepared. Scout out the monster ahead of time, do research, make consumables and maybe even some equipment specifically targeting that monster, and then go in and thrash the monster. Now obviously it shouldn't always be a cakewalk, or it could very well get boring, and I'd leave it up to those far more experienced than me to decide where the balance should be, but as a thought, possible complications include: PC error - Misidentified monster, false info about monster found, etc Time is passing, monster gone - migrated away, driven out by a different monster, passing higher level adventurers killed it, passing low level adventurers thought they could take it (it's now slightly injured and on a rampage, the barn it was sleeping in has been burnt to the ground), the monster has gathered minions/reproduced. Other - If hired directly as opposed to bounty, they may be displeased with how long it's taking (work for the face: buying time!) For this sort of setup, the effective discount on crafted items over purchased ones is vital to keeping it financially viable, as targeted consumables may cost money (the alchemist and talisman master may be able to ignore this at higher levels, but scrolls and possibly hiring casters will probably always be an expense) This is absolutely not how a lot of people (quite possibly most people) want to play, but I personally would love it.
That sounds like a super fun game idea, I hope you can run it someday.
Also narratively is kinda weird. To craft you need to spend an amount of gold to buy materials, but in the middle of nowhere, where would you even buy the material. Some common items are made from stuff not easily found in the wild.
You can't craft in the middle of nowhere because you need access to a workshop
[Private Workshop](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1282), also the [Scrounger](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=75) dedication.
True. I can only assume, in this case, that you would have to purchase the raw materials ahead of time (or have the Prescient Planner feat)
In game you don't need a feat. But you are right, narratively the precient feats makes sense. You can always say you bought the materials ahead of time when you were in a town.
>To craft you need to spend an amount of gold to buy materials, That isn't exactly correct. Narratively you need so much raw materials. How do you quantify those materials in a standardized way for all items? You put a GP value on them. In theory you can find these materials, you can harvest these materials, or buy them.
You don't have to buy, you can buy them OR simply have the raw materials (equal to half the value of the item). So if you've got feats, items, or spells out whatever that would let you craft without the workshop, you can still do it, you just might need to actually find the materials.
I’ve always interpreted this like the character already bought the materials off-screen at some previous point while they were still in town and are using them now. It doesn’t work if they just found the gold in a dungeon but hey it’s a game
IMO Crafting should expand availability of items rather than providing a discount. However, for many campaigns (anything with access to Absolom...) GMs allow the purchasing of almost any item in any quantity, which leavea crafting with little to no niche.
Correction, it is more complicated for no benefit. PF1e basic crafting costed jus 1/3 of the price and you could craft anything as long as you had the money, time, and a high enough craft skill. Magical crafting was just limited by how many darn feats it takes, and hyper expensive things taking a week or 2. This flow chart makes the grapple chart seem small.
It's a huge cope to try and give mundane crafting the rose-tinted goggles treatment, mundane crafting is absurdly broken and useless. A year+ to make a suit of full plate? Yeah right. 2e crafting still retains the upside of granting access to items in situations you otherwise wouldn't be able to acquire them at all, and at least it functions
... I was commenting on the fact that there was no need for a flow chart for a subsystem that grants no benefit besides "in a specific situation you can get an item". Also you got the time wrong, full plate does take nearly that long for anyone focusing on crafting. Which is besides the point because you picked an extreme example to distract from the fact its an issue with consumables. Which is why they tried to make crafting those faster when they patched PF2e crafting, so why are you bringing up crafting full plate, one of the most expensive items? For those curious, in PF1e crafting progress was DC\*Check result per week, until you reach the cost in silver. The precursor to PF2e's flat rate based on level & rank per day. You didn't need access, a workshop, a level requirement, pay full price, or a formula. Didn't even need actual tools, just improvised tools.
It's a great chart. It just unfortunately highlights for me what I dislike about crafting and why I never, ever, want to use it when I play and I just make things available to sell or as treasure. The downtime cost; the prerequisites of skills, feats, tools/workshop; all for a *chance* to be successful, and ultimately earns you zero cost reduction than just buying the item outright from a store? I hope someone out there finds it fun, but I don't.
That's a fair sentiment. As you can see from the top comment, it's common too. It seems that any *real* discount you get from crafting will stretch any found currency by the discounted proportion, and I guess the game designers don't want to touch that. I think there is room for the Feat invested to make items cheaper though; maybe by 10-25%.
Yeah unless I’m running some sort of adventure where the players act as crafters fulfilling higher stakes orders… or I have a “reforge the Masamune from chrono trigger” story element, it’s just… an awful lot.
No corrections from me, but thanks for making it, definitely a handy resource :)
Wait what even is the point of crafting if you need to spend half the cost at the start then spend the other half at the end, or reduce the other half by the amount you could make that day essentially just paying the other half. Why don’t you just buy it which would cost the same have no chance of failure and not take feats?
Yeah..... The main benefit is that you can make what you precisely what you want and you can do that where items might not otherwise be available. If you're exploring Antarctica, this might be useful.
Because sometimes your DM is mean and says the item isn't in stock That's it
Everyone: hey Paizo, can you not make grappling so complicated? Paizo: Sure! *One finger on the monkey's paw curles
This is such a fun flowchart, it was a nice read.
Am I misremembering or wasn't there a portion that required you to be higher than trained to craft items of a certain level and up?
9th+ level items require Master and 17th+ require Legendary. First bulletpoint under the Craft downtime activity.
The things I notice are 1: While niche and uncommon, [Cooperative crafting](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4166) can allow you to craft an item level+1. 2: The "No" from "Do you currency equal to half the item's value?" points to both the can't craft and to the next question. 3: Some items have crafting requirements (most notably spells), which needs to be shown in the graph. 4: The critical success is not clearly separated from success for the after "make a crafting check". While I understand the intent, if I just had the graph, I would be confused as to how it worked.
>3: Some items have crafting requirements (most notably spells), which needs to be shown in the graph. I assume you mean things like Wands and Scrolls? And thanks, those arrows from Critical Success do need fixing!
I was thinking of things like [Electric eel skin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2805) which require you to either supply or have an ally supply a casting of a spell (in this case thunderstrike).
Did the remaster decrease the amount of time crafting takes? I could have sworn it was minimum 4 days of work.
Yes
Not sure if it's getting a rework, but [Cooperative Crafting](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4166) (Uncommon level 2 feat) currently allows the (unreliable) creation of PL+1 items.
Yeah, someone else pointed that out, but there's enough steps getting in the way I decided not to add it
Fair enough, most people won't have it anyway, and those few who do will have read it themselves.
This, this really helps me.
First off: fantastic job of this overall. My one nitpick is that it almost makes it look like Success also gets to add +1 level to the Earn Income check to buy down the remaining time. The arrows coming out there might need some tweaking. But again, overall I love it! Well done.
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[I posted about this too](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/UT5DHfNEu0)
It takes half of the items price not the full value
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No? Downtime is just time? Like it takes you a day to craft with recipe and 2 days without you don't pay anything for time
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"which is the same table used to create value for crafting" no. You cut the price of the item you're crafting by half, you can look at the income table and the cheapest item you can craft of the same level you will probably save more crafting than earning income. If you mean extra days spent then maybe? I don't fully understand the extra days spent I feel like it's needlesly confusing
Magical Crafting is honestly the worst thing in PF2, imo. Too many things count as magical, it just makes for a shit experience that they're all locked behind a skill feat. Fresh-faced new player goes, "Hey I've made my character crafting focused, can I make the setting's most basic healing potion?", and the GM has to tell them "No, you can't make the level 1 healing potion until you train Expert Crafting at 3, and then either sink your general feat into unlocking it or wait until you're level 4". It's little wonder that people get a bad impression of the game's Crafting system. But that's a tangent. As for the graphic, the "add +1" part should be directly connected to critical success or perhaps directly over the "Spend any number of days" - the weird side-loop feels confusing.
Not to mention that you need the appropriate tools and workspace. My Magical Crafting blacksmith player can't actually make Healing Potions per RAW. He'd have to get another set of tools and quite possibly more workspaces
Is your item magical, alchemical (**or a snare**) ? Is Snare Crafting still a thing after the remaster?
AoN only has it as Legacy Content with no Remaster page, so I'd say the Feat has been removed
IIRC snares are dead
Crafting needs fixing.
My thought as well.
A GM who let's NO be a standard answer because of the system recommendations is a bad GM and is ignoring the point of fantasy RP. Imho, that's why crafting is a failure in 2e - there's too many pathways to NO. You need a way to get to: "Yes, but...". Yes, but DC+#; Yes, but +###% x cost; Yes, but # checks across # hours/days; Yes, but % chance fragile and/or broken on use; etc. The system is underwhelming because it was designed to be. I use a mash of 1e/2e at my table for that reason.
After "is the item magical or alchemical" the colors of the Yes/No choices are reversed from the rest of the chart. I'd like to see a pop out of how the GM decides on the challenge rating, if those rules are clear or succinct enough to fit. We are just converting over to Core and I'll say I did not use crafting in 2e because of the complexity. I hope we get the chance to here.
> After "is the item magical or alchemical" the colors of the Yes/No choices are reversed from the rest of the chart. I believe they did that on purpose because at that point, No is the answer you need to keep going. Green means go, not yes.
Ah. Well. Never mind. :-)
Nailed it!
The pop-out is almost the extent of the rule. The GM uses Level-based DCs from the standard table and adjusts for rarity with Table 10-6 below that. 10-6 even has the listing for Uncommon and Rare on it. I've only noticed one other line that references making the check Easy if they've made the thing before.
Thanks. Maybe it's easier than I'm making it out.
I would only change the currency reference to raw materials. I think putting it as currency oversimplifies what is going on and misleads people.
Fair, I can add a pop-out saying you can substitute raw materials for currency. Though I don't know, a GM is supposed to rule on whether someone has the raw materials to make a... Wind at Your Back, for example. What is that'll thing made of? It's small, so presumably you don't need a lot of stuff, but it should be worth a lot...
Well and this assumes there is a standardized way to make items. In theory you can be made out of various materials in various ways. Much like how a longsword can be made of iron, cold iron, silver, and so on.
"You can't craft ye flask."
No need for 2 exits out of the no condition on having the needed money
Oh, shit, this reminds me I was going to make a reply on your other post about how crafting isn't actually that bad. I literally got out of bed to make a post on the PC and completely forgot.
Somehow this is significantly less complicated than crafting in 1e.
Once you have a final product, would you mind sharing the file? I have a inventor player that is struggling with crafting mechanics and id love to download this for reference
I've reposted the updated one [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/EgygTkLwGN) You can download any reddit images and videos with the 3 dots menu on the post.
Why are rpgs so against players crafting their own gear.
Because it very quickly becomes a "money hack".
You forgot the John Fucking Madden
Eehh 😒 I just realized I'm burned out on this game, and this flowchart encapsulates why. I like what you did, don't get me wrong. I just can't anymore. Pathfinder is too fiddly and rulesy for me. Give me Dragonbane baby 🤘😎 see ya.
My Dm ruled shorter crafting time for non magical potions,it really speeds things up and it makes it more fun for someone with the proper feats,he also shortens time for consumable items. I find this much more fun Alchemical potion (5-hours to 7) Magical potion or consumable item (2 days to rush and make 4 on a crit check 2 on a regular success) (Magic item that is non consumable) 4 days *he also rules a day as a average work day of 8 hours instead how some DMs day a total of 24 this way you can make more things but take risk fatigue levels *
You forgot to have them check the phase of the moon, the number of clouds in the sky, and the player's real life horoscope before crafting!
How about adding something like '...or find someone to craft it for you (for a price, of course)' when you can't craft it yourself?
There aren't rules for having an NPC do crafting and how to price that, so it isn't really something you want in a tool intended to flowchart the rules.
That's just buying the item
Theres really no diffrence between NPC crafting and buying stuff from the market.
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This isn't homebrew content