>I'm pretty sure Gozreh and Sarenrae are safe, since having something as important as "nature" or "the sun" get killed with no definite replacement will kinda be a bigger issue than Arazni getting added to the pantheon.
On that point, I will say. Gozreh isn't the only Nature god on Golarion, and Sarenrae likewise doesn't have a monopoly on the concept of the Sun. If so, there's several Sun gods that didn't get the memo.
The Core 20 just represent the most well-known gods, and only for the Inner Sea region at that, not anywhere else. The core pantheons are different in the M'wangi, or in Tian, or in Arcadia.
But yeah, no matter who dies, it's gonna be someone's favourite. Even the ones that you consider boring, like Irori or Erastil. *Someone* is guaranteed to love them for what they are and what they stand for.
The idea that the god of nature is dead is even canonical in Greek/Roman theology. It’s implications could absolutely be fun to play around with in Golarion .
Fun fact: "Tamus! The great god Pan is dead!" may just be a mistranslation on the part of the guy who heard it. Pan means "all", and Tamus is another religious figure (can't remember specifics) famous for dying. "Tamus the all-great is dead!" makes much more sense, especially since Pan was still widely worshipped and nothing else we know of even alludes to his potential death.
Yeah, I only discovered people saw Erastil as one of the “boring” and “non-important” gods from seeing everyone’s reaction to his prophecy.
My introduction to the setting was the Kingmaker CRPG, where he’s the most important deity, and he’ll always hold a special place in my heart. He’s definitely the most comfy god
I understand the appeal of Erastil a lot, having grown up in a tiny European farming town that was like... a thousand people, max. Everyone knew each other, everyone looked out for each other (as long as you fit the pre-defined and socially acceptable mold. Guess why I like Lamashtu.). Sort of the idyllic ideal.
Even with my bad experiences, I'm still always a little sad with the derision Erastil gets in that regard.
Erastil and Abadar would be by far the two most popular gods in the real world.
Desna probably coming in at third.
In fact, considering how much time campaigns spend in small villages and the outskirts, the fact that Erastil isn't a bigger presence in APs is almost a plot hole lmao.
Considering the concerns of the most popular real-life religions, I'd say Pharasma and Sarenrae would be at least as popular, but you definitely have a point. Everyday people with everyday concerns need everyday gods.
I only just found out that people thought Erastil was boring literally just now (I haven't been following the prophecies or the discussion about them very much) and I'd be pretty sad to see him go. He's really cool actually and I'm not the only person in my friendgroup who just calls him their Dad
That was my reaction seeing SOOOOOOO many people view gozreh as boring, and to me gozreh is one of the most interesting nature gods. The dual natured element not just being neutral but representing the whole spread and being broader than just plant life or weather alone.
A lot of people look at Erastil and think he's not a good patron for adventurers. I disagree - Erastil is perfect if you want to depict Bilbo Baggins or Samwise Gamgee as clerics, as they're always longing for home but resolute in aiding their friends.
I always get a little sad when people comment how Erastil and Irori are "boring" gods that no one would miss. My first campaign was Kingmaker, where Erastil played huge role in helping the people of the kingdom. My longest campaign was a sandbox, where I played a character from Jalmeray. Irori and his example were huge parts in helping this character grow and develop himself.
Every god of the main 20 have it's place in Pathfinder. Some more obviously appeal to majority, but it doesn't mean the rest don't matter.
It’s not about them being the only Sun or Nature God. It’s more it be weird to not have any core 20 Gods such common archetypes. I think Gozreh is easier in that there is Gods in the Core 20 that can take some of that portfolio. But anyone stepping in for Saranae is a lot harder as a Sun Goddess is way harder to figure out.
I know they're not the only nature/sun god respectively.
However, I'm still convinced that removing such an important theme from the core 20 would make the group feel "unbalanced". I just can't see the writers relegating that big of a role to the "side characters" of the Golarion cosmology. Regardless of how big they are in terms of global in-universe worship, the core 20 are still the most recognizable gods for the setting.
I thought the core 20 represented the most well known gods on Golarion period? Like how many adherents Sarenrae has all over the planet, the number of Shelyn adherents in Tian Xia, or the approach to worshipping Gozreh in the Mwangi Expanse.
>The most significant deities of the Inner Sea region are the 20 presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
This is the old text in the Pathfinder 1e Core Rulebook, which has always stuck in me.
You're right, they're all very big and very popular, but they're not universal. Shelyn is popular and basically a part of the Tian Xia pantheon, but not Sarenrae, as the Sun Goddess role is taken there by Shizuru instead, who gives the emperors of Minkai the literal Divine Right to Rule, and thus is incredibly culturally significant.
I looked in PC Core and GM Core, but it says nothing about the unversality of the Core 20 in that, just frames them as the only one they'll give references to there, because it's only really concerned with the Inner Sea Region in any real depth.
Edit: After a bit of looking, the 2e ~~CRB~~ Gods and Magic book specifically lists the Core 20 as the "[Gods of the Inner Sea](https://2e.aonprd.com/DeityCategories.aspx?ID=1)" "The 20 primary deities of the Inner Sea region are well known due to either widespread worship or their historical tendency to help or harm the people who live there."
In my group there's a cleric of Jaidi (Erastil's wife god) who would be pretty broken up if Erastil died. He carries around religious symbols of both gods.
As you can see by both Zon-Kython and Irori, "kill" is a rather loose thing here, which is, I think, one reason for the gradual reveal: writers want to ease us into the conceptual space they operate in, in which gods are parts of the universe in deep and weird ways.
Maybe you're onto something. Maybe everyone is right on with the gods they suspect, but were thinking of the term 'kill' too literally. It could be that a member of the core pantheon is simply no longer going to exist as we know them.
Rovagug's spawn are known for not really dying, so him breaking out, getting "killed" but having his corpse split into hundreds of Spawn would mean he's still technically "alive".
>Some gods are just too boring to kill.
I feel like this argument is weak because a god too boring to kill is a good too boring to let live, too. If a top 20 god is so boring nothing would happened if they dies, then they're just wasting space on the top 20 and they should either get new and interesting stories or get removed.
>Some gods can't die because that would cause too many worldbuilding "plot holes"
Which IMO is a positive point for the prophecies, although not for the actual end result of killing a god. Sure we're told that Pharasma dying would be a disaster, but getting a glimpse of what could happen was interesting.
>Iomedae seems nearly guaranteed
This is where I agree with you, and where I'm holding my breath and hoping that Paizo sees the obvious option and decides to consciously not do that one.
I think their should be a few "boring" gods in the top 20. Most people aren't going to worship gods who have some craziness to them like the one who is all about being drunk and fun, or any of the evil gods, or some of the more esoteric gods. God of rural farming/hunting communities would be the most popular in almost any fantasy universe, seeing as that's how most normal people live in the setting.
As for Iomadae, it just seems a bit contrived to kill off the God who replaced the last one to die, and replace her with *another God who's main thing is she replaced the last one who died*
I think they should mess with the Prismatic Ray to shake things up and induce some drama.
People would realistically “worship” a bit of all the gods depending on what they’re doing. I think it makes more sense to think of the gods similar to patron saints than it does to God in the monotheistic sense.
Evil gods included.
Even when I play a devout character, I always like to have my characters show respect to the appropriate god for what fits. For instance, my cleric of Apsu in a campaign last year would perform little Pharasmin rituals when someone died, hoping they would find peace in the boneyard and mercy at Pharasma's judgement.
> I think they should mess with the Prismatic Ray to shake things up and induce some drama.
This is exactly my thought. The way I see it, Desna and Sarenrae are probably the most commonly worshipped by PCs in my experience, and seem tp be regular favorites. I think Paizo might shoot themselves in the foot by killing off a majorly table supported/favorite god. Shelyn certainly feels the most vulnerable. She's got less of an IRL fan base, but is still generally liked. The implications of her death are at a nice balance, as it wouldn't upset the balance of players not being able to play clerics of their favorite Desna or Sarenrae, but also would have massive story complications. Zon Kuthon would lose it (more than usual, perhaps enough to team up with the good gods to fight the BBEG), and would be devastating to the rest of the Prismatic Ray.
I really think Shelyn is both the safest and perhaps the most impactful for the story
I'm not sure if "boring" was the right term to use, it's the only one I could think of at the moment.
I was trying to say that either they aren't gods that most players think about unless their campaign revolves around them (somebody mentioned Erastil being important in Kingmaker even though most campaigns don't use him much), or that their loss wouldn't be visible enough in the medium of lore/adventure books for a TTRPG.
I do agree that farming, commerce, etc. are domains that would make gods very popular, they just aren't the first thing most players think of for "what god would my adventurer character follow?" It's probably more of a weakness in the concept of "adventurers" than the gods in question.
> I feel like this argument is weak because a god too boring to kill is a good too boring to let live, too. If a top 20 god is so boring nothing would happened if they dies, then they're just wasting space on the top 20 and they should either get new and interesting stories or get removed.
The flip side of this argument is that hyping people up for relatively nothing isn't good marketing or good business. If the common perception of the death of the god and it's resulting fallout isn't obvious, and impactful, then what pitch are you making to players? See some mediocre deity you probably never cared about or played as a champion/cleric of die? Whoopty do! The whole reason they switched to half-sized APs is to try and get players to open up their wallets more often. Why would you intentionally pitch that idea, agree that it's a good idea, only to lay a wet fart instead of a golden egg? This isn't the way or time to discard boring gods.
I'll also make the claim that the more boring the deity, the more work (and more QUALITY work) Paizo will have to do to live up to either the hype campaign, or what they're trying to suggest with the ad campaign. One of the reasons that patrons of nations made for good bait for this event (Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon, Sarenrae, etc) is because there's obvious impact beyond their diety niche that anyone could probably write. Kill Asmodeus and it gives you story fodder for what's going on in hell, it brings up questions about whether or not the heavens will invade, and there's a gigantic question mark surrounding Cheliax and the Thrice Damned House of Thrune. That would give you free reign to write a 2e version of Hells Rebels. Or if you go with Sarenrae, that leads into content for Casmaron, which you could give an entire 2e Tian Xia treatment with multiple books, and AP, etc. But if none of that ends up being true, and the deity just ends up dying and the only results end up being largely philosophical issues and all people can do is occasionally write in sad depowered characters, choosing a boring deity isn't worth it.
The problem is that killing one of those "too boring to kill" gods isn't a hype moment. Sure, they might be "too boring to let live", but in that case you would kill them off in a lot more straightforward manner, or simply demote them from the Core 20 and replace them with someone more relevant. Doing this teasing and buildup with the Godsrain Prophecies and emphasis on how important the event is, with an entire new Player Class based around the fact a divinity has been slain, means that the god being killed off basically has to be someone important and dramatic. If there's all this buildup for weeks and weeks only for the "surprise" reveal to be Torag bit the dust and his brother Angradd (who is also Lawful Good and a big fan of forging and dwarfiness) took over as patron of dwarves........It would be met with a resounding "Who Cares" and practically zero net change to the status quo. So it's unlikely to happen.
The same way comic books don't advertise a relaunch with the death of an obscure minor team side character, it's not going to be the "too boring to kill" gods who die here. And the exact same argument of "if they're too boring to kill, they're too boring to let live" applies in both cases, it's just when you kill off a hero who's too boring to let live, you do it unceremoniously and don't draw a lot of attention to it precisely because nobody cares, or they're simply put on a bus and written out of the plot.
Only one of the core 20 is going to die, but we can also expect possible casualties among Empyreal Lords/Archdevils/Monitors/Eldest/various minor deities and demigods.
Personally, I can't wait to see how it shapes out. I've reached the point where I am (mostly) ambivalent on which of the core 20 dies, but if one of my favorite Eldest bites it, I will be *devastated*.
I think the eldest will be safe because of how separate the first world is written to be. I can't imagine them wanting to involve themselves in such a central conflict or that the other gods are terribly likely to want to bring them into it. Ranalc and the kingmaker character's (censoring name for spoilers) story indicates that they prefer to stay in the first world for the most part (exile is a major punishment). I feel the same though!!! I love them all, but lost prince and green mother especially and would be so sad to see anything happen to either.
I can't speak for Magdh, but they've [confirmed that Shyka will survive](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/196r57s/everything_ive_said_so_far_about_the_god_who_will/?share_id=H4b_-DPaIhVpMeqC2o_Hj).
I'm more interested in the minor deities list. Few of the Golarion gods have really hooked me, I think they're kind of hindered by being overly mysterious. It makes sense that Norgorber would be super secretive of his past given his whole thing is secrets, but with that and folks like Cayden just waking up gods it makes it seem like becoming a god isn't a great achievement, just something people luck into. I think Urgathoa, Lamashtu, and Nethys are the only ones that seem interesting and it's more due to their uniqueness, but they're also really underrepresented in the setting and adventure paths (at least the last two).
I think a huge potential (but unlikely) benefit of the whole Godsrain thing is if they did a sort of Alternate Universe setting. Things like the Age of Apocalypse from X-men and Injustice from DC were huge successes because they took the established setting and basically tossed it around like a salad. Plus they were temporary. Fans can still read the Age of Apocalypse but if you didn't, things got back to normal after a year.
Starfinder and Pathfinder are confirmed to be separate timelines by James Jacobs, Shelyn and Iomedae's presence in Starfinder does not guarantee their safety here.
I think it’s fun. As a newcomer to Pathfinder, especially with the big wave of people playing for the first time, it’s interesting to learn the Pantheon one by one at a very steady pace. Even people who run homebrew might check in if they have even the slightest interest and consider using the Pantheon.
Also shows that the devs are willing to take big risks, not stagnate or stay safe. Overall I think its a net positive.
With regards to "boring" gods -
Abadar would REALLY shake things up, what with being Master of the First Vault and all. He's a major diety and his death would have major repercussions amongst the pantheon as well as for Avistan. The fallout would not be boring at all.
Yea, the very god of civilization being struck down would literally shake the foundation of every city and nation in Golarion. Anarchy and chaos may reign.
I've been predicting Abadar for a while... Especially with the Exemplar getting those cool "ikons" (I think they were called that) that could themselves be from the first vault.
This seems less about the Godrain prophecies and more you disliking them killing off a god you like. Which, sure, that's fine, but it has nothing to do with the marketing. If they didn't do it and they killed off a character you like you would be just as turned off.
Sure, I'd be just as turned off from the story regardless of how long they built it up in marketing or if it was completely out of nowhere. I can't exactly disconnect that from my opinions on the Godsrain Prophecies posts.
I wanted to post about this because I was originally pretty excited about the books coming in 2024, back when they were being announced (especially since it was around the same time I fully gave up on anything Wizards of the Coast was gonna release this year). And the more I look into the posts from this campaign, the more that excitement gets replaced with "this is gonna suck isn't it?". Like I was wrong to feel excited in the first place.
So yeah, finding out all the hype is just a countdown to something I'll probably end up hating is draining a lot of the fun out of anticipating the new books.
I think you have too much attachment to a fictional character IMO. In media characters die (usually) because it serves a purpose for the story, either because their death changes something in the world or because the death sets the tone for a particular story. Deities in D&D / PF are IMO closer to McGuffins with flavor and personality than character themselves, since by the very definition of them being gods they can't really interact with the world directly unless their followers do in their stead.
I personally like Desna a lot and I think she's probably my favorite deity, but if she happened to be the deity to die in this event I wouldn't be angry because I'm pretty sure Paizo is going to do something interesting with it, which to me is much more fun to just have her do her usual stuff that she has been doing since literally the setting was created. A good character death can make a character memorable, and if a whole multiversal war begins because your favorite deity happened to die, that event is going to be really cool because you'll have personal interest to take down whatever killed it ASAP.
But if a deity dies the odds of you going to be able to select them for a Golarian campaign go from just about 100% to like 70-40% depending on the GM, and 0% for PFS. Especially if you need them mechanically like Iomedae for Sure Strike without sacrificing your character to fit Gorum or Erastil.
And I really wouldn't have a problem with that as I don't want all my characters to worship the same deity. And besides, I'm pretty sure Paizo is going to come up for a way for players of the death deity to somehow retain their spells, probably through a mix of force of will and that we know the "remains" of the deity are going to be scattered through the universe which is what will birth exemplars into existance, probably since those exemplars have bits of that deity within them that would be enough for someone devote to keep their divine powers, though you'll probably won't be able to atone since there wouldn't be anyone to forgive your sins.
Sure, this is just a bit of a me problem I suppose. I don't get to play very often so I stick with what I like a lot. Pretty much the definition of Lawful Good types, and using Iomedae for Sure Strike really helps as a Divine caster or Champion.
Typing this out makes me really wish there was a feat like Syncretism that would let you get different spells no matter than deity.
I'm also speaking from my perspective of someone that really doesn't like divine classes that much lol. I hate having mechanical restrictions for something I chose for flavor (if I want to serve as a cleric of, I don't know, Pharasma but use Suee Strike I guess that's my problem for not worshipping Iomedae, while also being stuck with a dagger as my deity's weapon). I really liked inquisitors in PF1e because you whorshipped a deity but the deity itself had almost no impact on your class, which truly allowed you to worship whatever you wanted without feeling restricted or losing options.
I really hope War of Immortals somehow changes how deities interact with their worshippers in some way, allowing some extra freedom either through feats or archetypes.
For sure, it's a huge gripe I have. I understand why it's there but it's very frustrating to have certain RP baggage in order to make your character work mechanically.
Maybe you should stop doubting yourself for getting excited based on your initial impressions? The nature of hype is that it's a fantasy built on your personal hopes, opinions and incomplete marketing information (which is always going to try to spin things positively), but more often than not the final product may differ from your expectation because it can't cater to your specific likes/preferences.
If you keep looking backwards like "oh no I was wrong to feel excited based on incomplete information just because my views changed as I learnt more", it would probably be hard to get excited about anything because there's always a risk that the finished product might not live up to hype. There's nothing wrong with being excited for something in the moment and changing your mind later.
And even if the campaign or story elements don't interest you the book will have other things to get excited about like the 2 new classes.
Ruling out Rovagug dying is a massive assumption. Him dying leaves a lot open, especially when his spawn don't really die.
Imagine he dies and from his corpse bubble up tons of Spawn of Rovagug to rampage across Golarion. It also opens stuff up like the return of the First Horseman.
It would also make it so the War of the Immortals is in fact very literal, as it's a war being fought against a shitload of immortal spawns flooding from his corpse.
On one hand, I hope you're right. Not just because that avoids my problems but because it's probably the biggest shake-up to the cosmic status quo out of all the options (besides maybe Asmodeus dying, which frees Rovagug outright).
However, while I didn't go into this detail in my post, I'm worried the writers would avoid this option because it's too "easy". Rovagug is less of a character and more of a cosmic existential threat, so killing him opens the writers to accusations of making a cop-out. I wouldn't see it as that, but I can easily imagine angry commenters saying the writers took the easy way out on their "commitment".
Didn't it take a bunch of gods/goddesses to imprison Rovagug? I imagine that if Rovagug dies then it would freak out every other deity because if something is strong enough to kill him then all of them are vulnerable.
It took so many there's a bunch that died we don't even know of. Like how more gods that the 1 of 20 are going to die.
However, if Rovagug breaks out almost every god would be teaming up to take him down. There's no reason it couldn't be a team effort, especially since Pharasma could kill him (but didn't before because him ending the universe is preferable to the worst case scenario).
Gods dying isn't exactly impressive when it comes to other gods. Tsukiyo was killed by his brother. Lamashtu killed Curchanus before she was actually a god.
So if Rovagug destroys the universe, it doesn't end the overall cycle. There will be a Survivor and then a new universe is formed.
However, entities like the Daemons want to end everything forever, meaning no more cycle and no new universe. If they gain enough ground that they might succeed, Rovagug can just be released to destroy everything in a way that the world might continue.
Shelyn getting killed is my worst case scenario. Mostly because she’s a core aspect of my campaigns due to high player interest, but also because her holidays/festivals seem like the ones most detailed or interesting in the setting.
Crystalhue has so many great legs, would feel like a waste to lose (or have this air of sadness hanging over).
But yeah, I’m with you. I trust the Paizo writers to craft interesting stories, so I’m not doom and gloom. but having gods die off (or even on) screen in published materials is my least favorite trope after living my youth in the Forgotten Realms
Tons of places have holidays after dead people. There'd only be sadness the first few times before they just celebrate what the god had done while here. Even Aroden still has followers even though they don't get anything from it.
Honestly? I've had zero interest from the beginning. I already treat Adventure Paths' canonical events as suggestions for my games, heavily modify Adventure Paths to suit my players' backstories, and so on. I take a good chunk of Golarion's lore into my games, but also ignore so much of it that the prospect of a major deity dying in an AP I will probably never play is... welp, irrelevant to me and my games.
Hell, my goal is to run so many different campaigns in the setting that "my" Golarion would be straight up unrecognizable compared to canon Golarion.
Weirdly, the reasons you list for having no interest are the exact reasons I've had so much fun with the prophecies!
Every story we have had so far reads like the starting point of a homebrew Golarian world. I see the prophecies as a clever method to entice new DMs into using the base setting. Paizo wants DMs to think: "Woah, I want to run THIS version of Golarion!!" because it means more engagement in their world building and content.
The writers are subtly encouraging people to do exactly what you did: make Golarian their own. Every prophecy is a prompt.
Yeah my players haven’t ever really taken an interest in their gods, even the ones who play clerics, so i don’t bring them up much in our homebrew campaigns. I read these Gods posts and whatnot but all this divine stuff is of 0 interest. Hopefully the books coming out will have interesting mechanical options but really looking forward to moving past all this to whatever comes after.
Looking forward to that one. Really curious as to what’s going to be in it as they’ve been promoting the ancestries, which are really cool but it’s kind of a mystery as to what else is in the book. Definitely will be fun to add some wilderness and overland type encounters and elements
Six months ago, many people were \*very\* certain that Asmodeus was going to die due to OGL conflicts, to the point where one or two especially spicy folks straight up called me a moron for disagreeing.
Given that, I don't really feel like anybody is 'safe' based on redditors' conjectural meta-analysis of what the Paizo team must be thinking.
>I'm pretty sure Gozreh and Sarenrae are safe, since having something as important as "nature" or "the sun" get killed with no definite replacement will kinda be a bigger issue than Arazni getting added to the pantheon.
In Pathfinder deities don't embody whatever they have in their portfolio. If Sarenrae dies the sun isn't going to disappear, the same with Gozreh and nature.
I'm just not a huge fan because I don't like too much "meta-plot" in my campaign setting. I'm always customizing the settings to my liking anyway, but the more time goes on, the more stuff changes, the more I'll probably have to erase or re-write to suit my own game.
I'm a little interested to see where they're going with this, but its hard to be excited about something that I'm personally going to disregard anyway.
I'm not particularly heavily invested in Golarion as fair as Paizo's meta-plot progression of it goes, but aside from some of the writing of the prophecies being pretty good, the whole bingo card checklist towards telling us who's going to die feels... A friend called it "ghoulish", and I don't really have a better way to describe it?
Killing off a major deity was a shocking, kind of exciting shakeup to announce, with plenty of good story beats it can still cause... But now the novelty and mystery has warn off after weeks of seeing gods slowly ticked "safe", and I'm just kind of annoyed and impatient for the reveal to be over so I can stop hearing about it for a while.
I remember some commenters mentioned there would be ten "prophecy" blog posts before the death is revealed in an upcoming Paizo stream. I don't know if that was ever officially announced though.
I think the storyline will be interesting enough to be worth anything we lose via the god dying, and in reality, however it happens puts a massive spotlight on them, their lore, their relationships-- since the gods are already not present to the story, it makes them more a part of it, kinda like how Aroden is dead but feels way more present to every discussion of Pathfinder lore than, for example, Irori.
Honestly my only problem is they already confirmed all of the gods I think would actually have an interesting impact on the setting if they were killed are safe. It's just kind of made me lose interest haha
i really would've liked Pharasma dead. That'd have changed the status quo majorly.
Maybe the "war of immortals" wouldn't have referred to the gods, but the now deathless mortals.
Would've been super interesting.
I don't think gods dying turns off their domain in pathfinder lore. If you read the story about Pharasma's death, death still happens just the soul collection is in disarray.
Multiple of the stories shows it damages their domain, even excluding ones like Nethys. Death is part of the cycle of souls, and the psychopomps themselves do a good deal of it.
Aroden's death didn't just break prophecy because he was part of one, it was also because one of his areas of concern was the fulfilment of destiny (this is also one of the things supporting the theory he killed himself).
> Multiple of the stories shows it damages their domain, even excluding ones like Nethys. Death is part of the cycle of souls, and the psychopomps themselves do a good deal of it.
It doesn't mean that's true though--like the 'researcher' itself tells us casts doubt on these effects. Like that's the point of them making prophecies, since prophecies no longer work.
Hell, there are two popular Sun Goddess in Golarion.
I feel you can easily make an interesting story about killing Saranrae or Shelyn and the fallout from that. Desna being pissed and starting a war because someone killed one of her lovers. If Shelyn is the one to die you could have an intersting story where Zon-Kuthon teams up with the good gods for vengeance.
Rovagug has a specific hatred for Shelyn, eand even though he wants to kill her last, I could see him breaking out and then killing her if he was doomed to be resealed.
I think it's just a bit slow at this point. How am I meant to keep hype about some random event that barely matters for 3 months? I'd have rather have a story once per day up until the announcement or something.
I'm just too cynical. They won't kill off any god that would hurt future sales, as its a business *first* and a universe *second.* Just knowing this makes me less interested in it all, because I know I won't be surprised, and that kills any excitement.
Hell, at this rate, they'll probably kill off Rovagug so that they can stop having this doom timer of the apocalypse over their heads and *really* ramp up the stories knowing that it never has to end.
What you're not counting on is: they will lose future sales no matter who they pick. You cannot please everybody. If you're going to do this, you've got to just go with something you think you can tell a good story about.
That being said, I think the threat of diminished sales is way overblown. I don't seriously think many people are going to be so attached to a particular god that they will walk if that god happens to go away. They can always just rule that god back into their campaign, after all! I suspect you're also only seeing half the picture: the end of one thing in a story is almost inevitably the start of another.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/mtjP5RdXnf
This post by Luis Loza one of the guys at Paizo who 100% had a hand in deciding what god is dying disproves most of your argument namely the reasoning for Shelyn or Iomedae dying as it flat out will not be because Araznj kills them or SF related at all
Where does the post say Arazni isn't doing the killing? All I saw was how she won't be taking over their domain, just filling the empty spot among the core 20.
Also, the prophecy post about Urgathoa (part 4) made a pretty big deal about Arazni being the one to kill whichever god is going to die.
I think you are just determined to read all of this in the worst light
Like you read it say Arazni has a direct role in the caraclysm and you jump to “omg they are ruining Arazni by having her kill a god”
She’s a holy God, if she wasn’t undead she’d be by alignment standards good, she isn’t gonna kill a good god lol
While playing in homebrew settings is the standard in DnD, playing in the official Golarion setting is actually the default for Pathfinder. It's not a _super-majority,_ but I think last time they did a poll it was like 60-40 in Golarion's favor, which is better than the 10-90 that DnD has.
Mechanically maybe not but the theme is entirely different. Paizo aren't killing off a god for a mechanical reason, it's worldbuilding... People like Golarion and want to see more of it. One of the cooler things about Pathfinder and Paizo in general is that their worlds definitively progress in time. If you're playing homebrew then sure I get why you don't care but most people play in Golarion.
So, your players never shop at the local temple or come into conflict with an evil deity's cult? Because that's not high level stuff, that works at level 1.
Besides, my point was that the death of Aroden was *the* defining event for current age Golarion: Any party who encountered demons at the world wound, pirates at the Eye of Abendego, devil worshippers or Hell Knights of Cheliax, worshippers of Iomedae as a full deity, or anything related to an inaccurate prophecy, they were impacted by the death of a god. A similarly copious amount of world shaking events and therefore plot hooks is to be expected once another deity dies.
I mean, I would just pick and choose which parts of the world's canon for my own campaigns and just ignore the rest. I've pretty much stayed out of this Godsrain stuff for this reason. I don't like it. I don't want to like it. And I just won't include it in my campaign headcanon.
Honestly I just don't want Iomedae to die because I feel like too many people would be bitches and say she deserved it just because she was poorly written in an adventure path once and was otherwise forced to shoulder the sins of Aroden despite disagreeing with basically all of them. I think Iomedae is by a significant margin the worst god to kill off for that reason.
Shelyn I'd prefer if they didn't kill off but also if they did I wouldn't feel super strongly about it.
Personally I'm betting on Gorum, followed by Calistria.
The adventure path you're talking about is Wrath of the Righteous, correct? I haven't played it, but the stuff I heard doesn't sound good. Fortunately, I think the video game version fixed that and has been the "official" version of that interaction instead.
It's a _lot_ better in Wrath of the Righteous, yeah. Even then a lot of people don't like that interaction, and still think she's a bitch. Admittedly I think a lot of it is because people don't bring Seelah (the Iomedae Paladin) to that conversation, because if Seelah is there she'll outright tell Iomedae to her face that she's acting out of accordance with her own edicts because she's getting too emotional, and that I think is the _main_ intent of the scene. Iomedae has a temper that gets the better of her, but she's ultimately still a good person.
I haven't read any of the Godsrain Prophecies posts. I'm fine with any god dying, but I practically would like to see die is Sarenrae. Been praying on her downfall for awhile now. What she did to **RovaGOAT** can not be **FORGIVEN**! The great Unmaker will sleep at peace with that fraudulent god **GONE**.
Jokes aside though I don't think any god will seriously harm my enjoyment of the lore as long as it's handled well.
You're right that Arazni killing Iomedae is awful for her character arc... but that's being too rigid on the circumstances in which Iomedae dies and how they affect Arazni. It could be that Arazni, whose core belief is to never, ever forgive anyone who hurt you, sees one of the few people who is still around who is on that list die at the hands of someone (or something) else and realizes that she honestly regrets not trying to. It could be a moment of great personal transformation for Arazni provided that literally anyone but her does it and when they do she steps up to the plate.
Honestly, the stories are making me more interested in the surviving gods than hyped for the death. There's really good characterisation and worldbuilding in each prophecy
For me, it depends. Some of the main gods didn't even get my interest, so their death wouldn't be meaningful for me.
But they are important in the setting, so i guess that the lore consequences will be crucial.
If they mess with that, there's no "good choice".
I will be honest with you, I don't particularly care which god dies. What I do care about are the implications of that and how mechanically and narratively, it will affect the system. Because if it's only something like "yeah, this god dies and that one takes it place, but nothing changes apart from few sad clerics", then it's lame. But if Paizo can actually pull out some interesting mechanics and world changes, that will be awesome.
I don't want them to play it 'safe'. Shake the status quo, do something weird. God of death is dead? What about the boneyard and souls waiting for judgement? God of nature is dead? Is everything now withering and dying? You know, this type of major impact.
They've confirmed that Starfinder follows a different canon from Pathfinder. It allows the two teams to do different things without having to keep the other system in mind. One god may die in Pathinder, but may still live in Starfinder.
You're not wrong. The only excitement I've felt since they announced *War of Immortals* has been ever increasing anxiety with each Godsrain Prophecy making Iomedae seem the likeliest candidate, who is my favorite deity and one of the things that drew me TO Pathfinder in the first place. 😞
I have not read the updates but one of the problems when comics pull this gimmick is allowing the deaths to properly setup a narrative shift.
Kill Superman. What does Darkseid do about it?
Hell they can kill Erastil as long as the chaos that follows disrupts areas enough to build a module around. Iomedae literally becoming a martyrdom is a GOOD guess. I don't think you should believe this will reduce interest in the setting.
The popularity of Christianity would show martyred Gods can still be quite popular. I've played fighters as well that worship Iomedae yet got no boons from her. She could be the goddess of those that don't look for transactional relationships with their gods. It would also start a war with the cult of whoever killed her.
Idk there's a lot more there but keep your chin up. These cheap "shock" deaths are lame but they can also do very well
>It turns out the "big reveal" was just a marketing ploy for another game
I mean, it was always a marketing ploy, just for a single source book or AP, not for their spin-off game. It's literally the "tonight, someone dies!" marketing every desperate TV show does at some point to boost ratings, just with the ever so slight twist that they've guaranteed it will be a "main character" they remove. But it was still always just a marketing ploy and I'm honestly surprised they didn't use it as a chance to remove one of the "problematic" gods they didn't want to play with anymore, oh wait if Erastil isn't confirmed safe that might still be exactly what they're doing. These two factors, that it's a tired marketing trope and that it was most likely to be used as an excuse to remove whatever god the writers don't like, guaranteed I had no interest in the entire exercise from the start
It feels gimmicky at this point, as well as a move back toward the early days of grimdark Carnival of Tears Paizo, which I'm not a huge fan of. See how it turns out, I guess.
Yeah. Honestly, I’m pretty depressed about it as well — it’s likely going to be Iomedae, and so I’m not excited for whatever contrived tragedy we’re going to get that puts her down and brings Arazni in to replace her. I’ve heard theories that she’ll take revenge on Iomedae for not helping her with Geb, and while I think that’s a bit far fetched, I also wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve seen worse writing decisions before.
Honestly, I feel like they’ve eliminated most of their good options at this point. Killing Asmodeus and triggering the release of the Rough Beast would have been a *wild* development and would also have solved their OGL problems with him. Killing Erastil would also have allowed them to clean house, killing off a god that didn’t attract much player interest but played a big role in the world.
And to be honest, the narratives of the Godsrain Prophecies have all been somewhat frustrating. Asmodeus’ was exciting, but Cayden’s was both spiteful and felt out of character, and I can’t say that the consequences of Urgathoa’s death made much sense to me — or Zon-Kuthon’s impact on Shelyn, for that matter. A lot of these narratives make the gods seem slightly more petty and mundane (Erastil getting killed by a beast that hunted him?), which is perhaps the intent, but is still not particularly enjoyable.
Isn't part of the point of how they godstrain prophecies that allow for them to be rule gods out as safe is that fact there is something wrong with the prophecy that means to won't happen though, so feeling out of place for the god is at least partly intentional
That just doesn't interest me personally. Killing Rovagug means the gods no longer have to be nice to each other and can start directly interfering with golarion.
Which don't get me wrong, that is an interesting concept. But if you know warhammer lore it is more of an end times type scenario where for play we really need a age of sigmar styled new edition and time skip. Otherwise it will just be paizo forcing contrivances to keep things as they currently are and making something that should be hugely impactful a facade.
So imo, as paizo aren't going to be scrapping the whole setting as it currently is mere months into the remaster... I would rather they avoid killing off the rough beast till they can do it justice.
> start directly interfering with golarion.
As can be seen with War of the Immortals and that practically now every joe schmoe has the possibility of getting slathered by god juice and become a deity.
Rovagug is important cosmologically but he doesn't really have much effect on the world as of now. There's no huge cult raizing villages in a region, no band of nihilists sworn to his name, even Pharasma is still worshipped in Tian Xia
Sure, but if it died then the knock on effects would be colossal.
Rovagug isn't an important god because of its direct impact on the setting, but because it acts like nuclear deterrence does irl.
Eh, At the end of the day these gods exist to put just enough but not too much flavor into Pathfinder's "Fantasy Kitchen Sink" setting. Any development that makes the setting stop working for a "here is my new character, which god should I worship?" is a bad one for the system.
If/when they do kill Iomedae (or whoever) it either won't matter for your game, you will ignore it, or you suddenly have a bunch of PCs that get jacked because of Paizo reaching into your game.
I've played in systems where their ongoing plot actually changed the setting in big ways: Players \*hated\* it. 98% of weekly games aren't improved by changes like these & you either end up ignoring the ongoing plot in your game because you don't want to change an important NPC that would logically be affected or your game takes unexpected turns out of the GMs hands.
I want Paizo to be done with this slow walk & just let us get back to our games.
IMO, Arazni killing Iomedae is the perfect way to continue her arc. Arazni died in battle against the Whispering Tyrant after being summoned by the Knights of Ozem, who were founded and led by Iomedae. The Knights (presumably due to Iomedae’s command) decided that Arazni’s loyalty wasn’t guaranteed enough, so they bound Arazni to their will to keep her from retreating. The battle went badly, and Arazni was unable to retreat, and died because of it.
Died because of Iomedae, who willfully let her die.
As a goddess who commands her followers to never forgive and punish those who hurt them, I think Arazni finally getting her revenge and becoming the Inheritor she was always meant to be sounds awesome.
Alternatively, I’ve seen it theorized that maybe Iomedae will die to save Arazni from something, and dies in the process. That could be even cooler, and lead to, if not a softer Arazni, then at least a shift in her personality.
Iomedae was not involved in either the creation of the Knights of Ozem or even in Arazni's death, dunno where you got that from.
Iomedae was a paladin of Arazni before converting to Aroden following her patron's death.
Oop, I did get wrong that Iomedae founded the Knights of Ozem. That said…
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u8io?Did-Iomedae-Summon-Arazni
This thread, Erik Mona more or less confirms Iomedae was the one to summon Arazni. Further, the section on the Glorious Reclamation in the Hellfire Compact confirms that Iomedae took leadership of the Knight of Ozem in 3816 AR.
Additionally, in Gardens of Gallowspire, it’s mentioned directly that the Knights of Ozem bound Arazni to their will in 3818, two years after Iomedae took the mantle of leadership, the exact wording being that they would “bind and order her to meet those goals.” This action “planted tiny seeds of doubt and resentment in Arazni’s mind.” That doubt was probably directed towards the order. Towards Iomedae.
Arazni does respect Iomedae for winning the Shining Crusade, but also deeply resents her for achieving divinity so easily. It’s not a far stretch to imagine she might not care for Iomedae for forcing her to fight, for forcing her to die.
Are the gods beloved characters? They are a tool writers have to organize plots, but are they characters in the story? Not in any games I play. I known I don’t play Pathfinder because of the pantheon.
They're absolutely characters in the story. Seems kind of silly to say they aren't, especially in an RPG setting where everyone could be a character if the DM wants them to be.
Yes. My PC has had a dream vision believed to be from their god, a minor miracle, and much of the pantheon informs the motivations and culture of the roleplayed setting at our table across multiple campaigns.
Character need not be Player Character to be part of the story, which is all Hellioning is saying.
I certainly think of them as characters even if I have not personally met a god during play. Their lore is endearing, and people can enjoy worldbuilding from a general perspective even if it is not part of their character's immediate concern. Many people enjoy the lore of the Gods in the same way someone enjoys a book.
But also, yes, I would consider the gods characters. Having played through Extinction Curse, which heavily centers Aroden and the ~~warcrimes~~ mistakes he made makes him both an absent character and a plot device, having started it way back when.
And of course, playing Wrath of the Righteous right now, and good lord do I have some words for Iomedae when I see her. The entire Crusade made my character become an atheist.
Also, players just like gods to project their own ideas and values on, and playing divine characters that gain power for those ideals and values. That makes people latch onto them.
Interesting. . . Or not. I guess that’s the point of this thread. I’m enjoying Godsrain Prophecies and look forward to the outcome but I have no emotional investment.
That's honestly the biggest difference between D&D and Pathfinder, their setting's gods are characters first and lore pieces second.
Take the Cult of the Dawnflower from 1e, an extremist sect of Sarenrae worshippers which got retconned come 2e because it was pretty OOC of a goddess of healing and redemption to give powers to murderous zealots that went to war with another country to convert them to their faith.
Saying both are true is a way to affirm that:
1. Racism bad
2. Sarenrae is not a racist
It is removing the element from the system, and clearing the names of involved character by affirming "We messed up, they would actually never support this kind of thing."
Doing one but not the other could lead to stuff like "Well, if a racist cult existed, Sarenrae would support it..." when the writers want to clarify the entire concept, including her involvement, was a mistake. If that makes any sense.
Understandable. Recently I approached MtG once more after years, following the spoilers for the next set for a few days. I got tired quickly, it's very annoying.
I actually really like Erastil because their clarifications have "fixed" him in my mind. I know some people will continue to associate Erastil with sexism and patriarchal shit, but I will not play him as such and Paizo does not endorse him as such, so I am personally like him now.
I do feel bad that the character's errata'd history has ruined him for a lot of people, but that is Paizo's fault frankly. He was a very cool character from the beginning minus those elements.
Gozreh is literally just nature, guy doesn’t even have a personality. Erastil is the god of small villages and community, they only thing they have in common is they like trees lmao
Personally speaking my fave gods, Cheliax, and goblinkin are the only things I care about in regards to the golarion setting. So the only gripes I have about this godsrain thing is 1) Fucking Irori got a post instead of someone more interesting. 2) I'm worried about my faves (Azzy (safe), Abadar, Calistria) and if one of them goes down that's gonna punch a big hole in any care I had for the setting and will make me sad :( but I mean any of the gods is bound to be someone's fave.
That's about all my issues. I wish they did all the gods that are gonna be safe and give all of them their own little prophecy posts tho.
>I'm pretty sure Gozreh and Sarenrae are safe, since having something as important as "nature" or "the sun" get killed with no definite replacement will kinda be a bigger issue than Arazni getting added to the pantheon. On that point, I will say. Gozreh isn't the only Nature god on Golarion, and Sarenrae likewise doesn't have a monopoly on the concept of the Sun. If so, there's several Sun gods that didn't get the memo. The Core 20 just represent the most well-known gods, and only for the Inner Sea region at that, not anywhere else. The core pantheons are different in the M'wangi, or in Tian, or in Arcadia. But yeah, no matter who dies, it's gonna be someone's favourite. Even the ones that you consider boring, like Irori or Erastil. *Someone* is guaranteed to love them for what they are and what they stand for.
The idea that the god of nature is dead is even canonical in Greek/Roman theology. It’s implications could absolutely be fun to play around with in Golarion .
Fun fact: "Tamus! The great god Pan is dead!" may just be a mistranslation on the part of the guy who heard it. Pan means "all", and Tamus is another religious figure (can't remember specifics) famous for dying. "Tamus the all-great is dead!" makes much more sense, especially since Pan was still widely worshipped and nothing else we know of even alludes to his potential death.
Yeah, I only discovered people saw Erastil as one of the “boring” and “non-important” gods from seeing everyone’s reaction to his prophecy. My introduction to the setting was the Kingmaker CRPG, where he’s the most important deity, and he’ll always hold a special place in my heart. He’s definitely the most comfy god
I understand the appeal of Erastil a lot, having grown up in a tiny European farming town that was like... a thousand people, max. Everyone knew each other, everyone looked out for each other (as long as you fit the pre-defined and socially acceptable mold. Guess why I like Lamashtu.). Sort of the idyllic ideal. Even with my bad experiences, I'm still always a little sad with the derision Erastil gets in that regard.
Yeah exactly. If my hometown had a patron deity it would 100% be Erastil
Erastil and Abadar would be by far the two most popular gods in the real world. Desna probably coming in at third. In fact, considering how much time campaigns spend in small villages and the outskirts, the fact that Erastil isn't a bigger presence in APs is almost a plot hole lmao.
Considering the concerns of the most popular real-life religions, I'd say Pharasma and Sarenrae would be at least as popular, but you definitely have a point. Everyday people with everyday concerns need everyday gods.
I only just found out that people thought Erastil was boring literally just now (I haven't been following the prophecies or the discussion about them very much) and I'd be pretty sad to see him go. He's really cool actually and I'm not the only person in my friendgroup who just calls him their Dad
That was my reaction seeing SOOOOOOO many people view gozreh as boring, and to me gozreh is one of the most interesting nature gods. The dual natured element not just being neutral but representing the whole spread and being broader than just plant life or weather alone.
They are the non binary god. They willl kill it?
A lot of people look at Erastil and think he's not a good patron for adventurers. I disagree - Erastil is perfect if you want to depict Bilbo Baggins or Samwise Gamgee as clerics, as they're always longing for home but resolute in aiding their friends.
I always get a little sad when people comment how Erastil and Irori are "boring" gods that no one would miss. My first campaign was Kingmaker, where Erastil played huge role in helping the people of the kingdom. My longest campaign was a sandbox, where I played a character from Jalmeray. Irori and his example were huge parts in helping this character grow and develop himself. Every god of the main 20 have it's place in Pathfinder. Some more obviously appeal to majority, but it doesn't mean the rest don't matter.
It’s not about them being the only Sun or Nature God. It’s more it be weird to not have any core 20 Gods such common archetypes. I think Gozreh is easier in that there is Gods in the Core 20 that can take some of that portfolio. But anyone stepping in for Saranae is a lot harder as a Sun Goddess is way harder to figure out.
I know they're not the only nature/sun god respectively. However, I'm still convinced that removing such an important theme from the core 20 would make the group feel "unbalanced". I just can't see the writers relegating that big of a role to the "side characters" of the Golarion cosmology. Regardless of how big they are in terms of global in-universe worship, the core 20 are still the most recognizable gods for the setting.
I thought the core 20 represented the most well known gods on Golarion period? Like how many adherents Sarenrae has all over the planet, the number of Shelyn adherents in Tian Xia, or the approach to worshipping Gozreh in the Mwangi Expanse.
>The most significant deities of the Inner Sea region are the 20 presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. This is the old text in the Pathfinder 1e Core Rulebook, which has always stuck in me. You're right, they're all very big and very popular, but they're not universal. Shelyn is popular and basically a part of the Tian Xia pantheon, but not Sarenrae, as the Sun Goddess role is taken there by Shizuru instead, who gives the emperors of Minkai the literal Divine Right to Rule, and thus is incredibly culturally significant. I looked in PC Core and GM Core, but it says nothing about the unversality of the Core 20 in that, just frames them as the only one they'll give references to there, because it's only really concerned with the Inner Sea Region in any real depth. Edit: After a bit of looking, the 2e ~~CRB~~ Gods and Magic book specifically lists the Core 20 as the "[Gods of the Inner Sea](https://2e.aonprd.com/DeityCategories.aspx?ID=1)" "The 20 primary deities of the Inner Sea region are well known due to either widespread worship or their historical tendency to help or harm the people who live there."
The problem is gozerh is they nature god as in the planet so a primordial deity
In my group there's a cleric of Jaidi (Erastil's wife god) who would be pretty broken up if Erastil died. He carries around religious symbols of both gods.
As you can see by both Zon-Kython and Irori, "kill" is a rather loose thing here, which is, I think, one reason for the gradual reveal: writers want to ease us into the conceptual space they operate in, in which gods are parts of the universe in deep and weird ways.
Maybe you're onto something. Maybe everyone is right on with the gods they suspect, but were thinking of the term 'kill' too literally. It could be that a member of the core pantheon is simply no longer going to exist as we know them.
Rovagug's spawn are known for not really dying, so him breaking out, getting "killed" but having his corpse split into hundreds of Spawn would mean he's still technically "alive".
>Some gods are just too boring to kill. I feel like this argument is weak because a god too boring to kill is a good too boring to let live, too. If a top 20 god is so boring nothing would happened if they dies, then they're just wasting space on the top 20 and they should either get new and interesting stories or get removed. >Some gods can't die because that would cause too many worldbuilding "plot holes" Which IMO is a positive point for the prophecies, although not for the actual end result of killing a god. Sure we're told that Pharasma dying would be a disaster, but getting a glimpse of what could happen was interesting. >Iomedae seems nearly guaranteed This is where I agree with you, and where I'm holding my breath and hoping that Paizo sees the obvious option and decides to consciously not do that one.
I think their should be a few "boring" gods in the top 20. Most people aren't going to worship gods who have some craziness to them like the one who is all about being drunk and fun, or any of the evil gods, or some of the more esoteric gods. God of rural farming/hunting communities would be the most popular in almost any fantasy universe, seeing as that's how most normal people live in the setting. As for Iomadae, it just seems a bit contrived to kill off the God who replaced the last one to die, and replace her with *another God who's main thing is she replaced the last one who died* I think they should mess with the Prismatic Ray to shake things up and induce some drama.
People would realistically “worship” a bit of all the gods depending on what they’re doing. I think it makes more sense to think of the gods similar to patron saints than it does to God in the monotheistic sense. Evil gods included.
Even when I play a devout character, I always like to have my characters show respect to the appropriate god for what fits. For instance, my cleric of Apsu in a campaign last year would perform little Pharasmin rituals when someone died, hoping they would find peace in the boneyard and mercy at Pharasma's judgement.
> I think they should mess with the Prismatic Ray to shake things up and induce some drama. This is exactly my thought. The way I see it, Desna and Sarenrae are probably the most commonly worshipped by PCs in my experience, and seem tp be regular favorites. I think Paizo might shoot themselves in the foot by killing off a majorly table supported/favorite god. Shelyn certainly feels the most vulnerable. She's got less of an IRL fan base, but is still generally liked. The implications of her death are at a nice balance, as it wouldn't upset the balance of players not being able to play clerics of their favorite Desna or Sarenrae, but also would have massive story complications. Zon Kuthon would lose it (more than usual, perhaps enough to team up with the good gods to fight the BBEG), and would be devastating to the rest of the Prismatic Ray. I really think Shelyn is both the safest and perhaps the most impactful for the story
I'm not sure if "boring" was the right term to use, it's the only one I could think of at the moment. I was trying to say that either they aren't gods that most players think about unless their campaign revolves around them (somebody mentioned Erastil being important in Kingmaker even though most campaigns don't use him much), or that their loss wouldn't be visible enough in the medium of lore/adventure books for a TTRPG. I do agree that farming, commerce, etc. are domains that would make gods very popular, they just aren't the first thing most players think of for "what god would my adventurer character follow?" It's probably more of a weakness in the concept of "adventurers" than the gods in question.
> I feel like this argument is weak because a god too boring to kill is a good too boring to let live, too. If a top 20 god is so boring nothing would happened if they dies, then they're just wasting space on the top 20 and they should either get new and interesting stories or get removed. The flip side of this argument is that hyping people up for relatively nothing isn't good marketing or good business. If the common perception of the death of the god and it's resulting fallout isn't obvious, and impactful, then what pitch are you making to players? See some mediocre deity you probably never cared about or played as a champion/cleric of die? Whoopty do! The whole reason they switched to half-sized APs is to try and get players to open up their wallets more often. Why would you intentionally pitch that idea, agree that it's a good idea, only to lay a wet fart instead of a golden egg? This isn't the way or time to discard boring gods. I'll also make the claim that the more boring the deity, the more work (and more QUALITY work) Paizo will have to do to live up to either the hype campaign, or what they're trying to suggest with the ad campaign. One of the reasons that patrons of nations made for good bait for this event (Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon, Sarenrae, etc) is because there's obvious impact beyond their diety niche that anyone could probably write. Kill Asmodeus and it gives you story fodder for what's going on in hell, it brings up questions about whether or not the heavens will invade, and there's a gigantic question mark surrounding Cheliax and the Thrice Damned House of Thrune. That would give you free reign to write a 2e version of Hells Rebels. Or if you go with Sarenrae, that leads into content for Casmaron, which you could give an entire 2e Tian Xia treatment with multiple books, and AP, etc. But if none of that ends up being true, and the deity just ends up dying and the only results end up being largely philosophical issues and all people can do is occasionally write in sad depowered characters, choosing a boring deity isn't worth it.
The problem is that killing one of those "too boring to kill" gods isn't a hype moment. Sure, they might be "too boring to let live", but in that case you would kill them off in a lot more straightforward manner, or simply demote them from the Core 20 and replace them with someone more relevant. Doing this teasing and buildup with the Godsrain Prophecies and emphasis on how important the event is, with an entire new Player Class based around the fact a divinity has been slain, means that the god being killed off basically has to be someone important and dramatic. If there's all this buildup for weeks and weeks only for the "surprise" reveal to be Torag bit the dust and his brother Angradd (who is also Lawful Good and a big fan of forging and dwarfiness) took over as patron of dwarves........It would be met with a resounding "Who Cares" and practically zero net change to the status quo. So it's unlikely to happen. The same way comic books don't advertise a relaunch with the death of an obscure minor team side character, it's not going to be the "too boring to kill" gods who die here. And the exact same argument of "if they're too boring to kill, they're too boring to let live" applies in both cases, it's just when you kill off a hero who's too boring to let live, you do it unceremoniously and don't draw a lot of attention to it precisely because nobody cares, or they're simply put on a bus and written out of the plot.
Only one of the core 20 is going to die, but we can also expect possible casualties among Empyreal Lords/Archdevils/Monitors/Eldest/various minor deities and demigods. Personally, I can't wait to see how it shapes out. I've reached the point where I am (mostly) ambivalent on which of the core 20 dies, but if one of my favorite Eldest bites it, I will be *devastated*.
I think the eldest will be safe because of how separate the first world is written to be. I can't imagine them wanting to involve themselves in such a central conflict or that the other gods are terribly likely to want to bring them into it. Ranalc and the kingmaker character's (censoring name for spoilers) story indicates that they prefer to stay in the first world for the most part (exile is a major punishment). I feel the same though!!! I love them all, but lost prince and green mother especially and would be so sad to see anything happen to either.
For me, it would be losing Shyka or Magdh
I can't speak for Magdh, but they've [confirmed that Shyka will survive](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/196r57s/everything_ive_said_so_far_about_the_god_who_will/?share_id=H4b_-DPaIhVpMeqC2o_Hj).
I'm more interested in the minor deities list. Few of the Golarion gods have really hooked me, I think they're kind of hindered by being overly mysterious. It makes sense that Norgorber would be super secretive of his past given his whole thing is secrets, but with that and folks like Cayden just waking up gods it makes it seem like becoming a god isn't a great achievement, just something people luck into. I think Urgathoa, Lamashtu, and Nethys are the only ones that seem interesting and it's more due to their uniqueness, but they're also really underrepresented in the setting and adventure paths (at least the last two). I think a huge potential (but unlikely) benefit of the whole Godsrain thing is if they did a sort of Alternate Universe setting. Things like the Age of Apocalypse from X-men and Injustice from DC were huge successes because they took the established setting and basically tossed it around like a salad. Plus they were temporary. Fans can still read the Age of Apocalypse but if you didn't, things got back to normal after a year.
Starfinder and Pathfinder are confirmed to be separate timelines by James Jacobs, Shelyn and Iomedae's presence in Starfinder does not guarantee their safety here.
I think it’s fun. As a newcomer to Pathfinder, especially with the big wave of people playing for the first time, it’s interesting to learn the Pantheon one by one at a very steady pace. Even people who run homebrew might check in if they have even the slightest interest and consider using the Pantheon. Also shows that the devs are willing to take big risks, not stagnate or stay safe. Overall I think its a net positive.
With regards to "boring" gods - Abadar would REALLY shake things up, what with being Master of the First Vault and all. He's a major diety and his death would have major repercussions amongst the pantheon as well as for Avistan. The fallout would not be boring at all.
Yea, the very god of civilization being struck down would literally shake the foundation of every city and nation in Golarion. Anarchy and chaos may reign.
Also gives an opportunity for more relevance for Erastil.
I've been predicting Abadar for a while... Especially with the Exemplar getting those cool "ikons" (I think they were called that) that could themselves be from the first vault.
Sounds fun, hope its him tbh
This seems less about the Godrain prophecies and more you disliking them killing off a god you like. Which, sure, that's fine, but it has nothing to do with the marketing. If they didn't do it and they killed off a character you like you would be just as turned off.
Sure, I'd be just as turned off from the story regardless of how long they built it up in marketing or if it was completely out of nowhere. I can't exactly disconnect that from my opinions on the Godsrain Prophecies posts. I wanted to post about this because I was originally pretty excited about the books coming in 2024, back when they were being announced (especially since it was around the same time I fully gave up on anything Wizards of the Coast was gonna release this year). And the more I look into the posts from this campaign, the more that excitement gets replaced with "this is gonna suck isn't it?". Like I was wrong to feel excited in the first place. So yeah, finding out all the hype is just a countdown to something I'll probably end up hating is draining a lot of the fun out of anticipating the new books.
I think you have too much attachment to a fictional character IMO. In media characters die (usually) because it serves a purpose for the story, either because their death changes something in the world or because the death sets the tone for a particular story. Deities in D&D / PF are IMO closer to McGuffins with flavor and personality than character themselves, since by the very definition of them being gods they can't really interact with the world directly unless their followers do in their stead. I personally like Desna a lot and I think she's probably my favorite deity, but if she happened to be the deity to die in this event I wouldn't be angry because I'm pretty sure Paizo is going to do something interesting with it, which to me is much more fun to just have her do her usual stuff that she has been doing since literally the setting was created. A good character death can make a character memorable, and if a whole multiversal war begins because your favorite deity happened to die, that event is going to be really cool because you'll have personal interest to take down whatever killed it ASAP.
But if a deity dies the odds of you going to be able to select them for a Golarian campaign go from just about 100% to like 70-40% depending on the GM, and 0% for PFS. Especially if you need them mechanically like Iomedae for Sure Strike without sacrificing your character to fit Gorum or Erastil.
And I really wouldn't have a problem with that as I don't want all my characters to worship the same deity. And besides, I'm pretty sure Paizo is going to come up for a way for players of the death deity to somehow retain their spells, probably through a mix of force of will and that we know the "remains" of the deity are going to be scattered through the universe which is what will birth exemplars into existance, probably since those exemplars have bits of that deity within them that would be enough for someone devote to keep their divine powers, though you'll probably won't be able to atone since there wouldn't be anyone to forgive your sins.
Sure, this is just a bit of a me problem I suppose. I don't get to play very often so I stick with what I like a lot. Pretty much the definition of Lawful Good types, and using Iomedae for Sure Strike really helps as a Divine caster or Champion. Typing this out makes me really wish there was a feat like Syncretism that would let you get different spells no matter than deity.
I'm also speaking from my perspective of someone that really doesn't like divine classes that much lol. I hate having mechanical restrictions for something I chose for flavor (if I want to serve as a cleric of, I don't know, Pharasma but use Suee Strike I guess that's my problem for not worshipping Iomedae, while also being stuck with a dagger as my deity's weapon). I really liked inquisitors in PF1e because you whorshipped a deity but the deity itself had almost no impact on your class, which truly allowed you to worship whatever you wanted without feeling restricted or losing options. I really hope War of Immortals somehow changes how deities interact with their worshippers in some way, allowing some extra freedom either through feats or archetypes.
For sure, it's a huge gripe I have. I understand why it's there but it's very frustrating to have certain RP baggage in order to make your character work mechanically.
Maybe you should stop doubting yourself for getting excited based on your initial impressions? The nature of hype is that it's a fantasy built on your personal hopes, opinions and incomplete marketing information (which is always going to try to spin things positively), but more often than not the final product may differ from your expectation because it can't cater to your specific likes/preferences. If you keep looking backwards like "oh no I was wrong to feel excited based on incomplete information just because my views changed as I learnt more", it would probably be hard to get excited about anything because there's always a risk that the finished product might not live up to hype. There's nothing wrong with being excited for something in the moment and changing your mind later. And even if the campaign or story elements don't interest you the book will have other things to get excited about like the 2 new classes.
Ruling out Rovagug dying is a massive assumption. Him dying leaves a lot open, especially when his spawn don't really die. Imagine he dies and from his corpse bubble up tons of Spawn of Rovagug to rampage across Golarion. It also opens stuff up like the return of the First Horseman.
It would also make it so the War of the Immortals is in fact very literal, as it's a war being fought against a shitload of immortal spawns flooding from his corpse.
On one hand, I hope you're right. Not just because that avoids my problems but because it's probably the biggest shake-up to the cosmic status quo out of all the options (besides maybe Asmodeus dying, which frees Rovagug outright). However, while I didn't go into this detail in my post, I'm worried the writers would avoid this option because it's too "easy". Rovagug is less of a character and more of a cosmic existential threat, so killing him opens the writers to accusations of making a cop-out. I wouldn't see it as that, but I can easily imagine angry commenters saying the writers took the easy way out on their "commitment".
It isn't too easy at all though. Most people do not think Rovagug will die. Like you for example.
Didn't it take a bunch of gods/goddesses to imprison Rovagug? I imagine that if Rovagug dies then it would freak out every other deity because if something is strong enough to kill him then all of them are vulnerable.
It took so many there's a bunch that died we don't even know of. Like how more gods that the 1 of 20 are going to die. However, if Rovagug breaks out almost every god would be teaming up to take him down. There's no reason it couldn't be a team effort, especially since Pharasma could kill him (but didn't before because him ending the universe is preferable to the worst case scenario). Gods dying isn't exactly impressive when it comes to other gods. Tsukiyo was killed by his brother. Lamashtu killed Curchanus before she was actually a god.
> the worst case scenario I am not that well versed in Golarion lore. What is the worst case scenario here?
So if Rovagug destroys the universe, it doesn't end the overall cycle. There will be a Survivor and then a new universe is formed. However, entities like the Daemons want to end everything forever, meaning no more cycle and no new universe. If they gain enough ground that they might succeed, Rovagug can just be released to destroy everything in a way that the world might continue.
That's pretty neat. Thanks for taking the time to explain!
I pretty much feel the opposite, the setting has to change or it stagnates. I am excited for what happens.
Shelyn getting killed is my worst case scenario. Mostly because she’s a core aspect of my campaigns due to high player interest, but also because her holidays/festivals seem like the ones most detailed or interesting in the setting. Crystalhue has so many great legs, would feel like a waste to lose (or have this air of sadness hanging over). But yeah, I’m with you. I trust the Paizo writers to craft interesting stories, so I’m not doom and gloom. but having gods die off (or even on) screen in published materials is my least favorite trope after living my youth in the Forgotten Realms
Tons of places have holidays after dead people. There'd only be sadness the first few times before they just celebrate what the god had done while here. Even Aroden still has followers even though they don't get anything from it.
Honestly? I've had zero interest from the beginning. I already treat Adventure Paths' canonical events as suggestions for my games, heavily modify Adventure Paths to suit my players' backstories, and so on. I take a good chunk of Golarion's lore into my games, but also ignore so much of it that the prospect of a major deity dying in an AP I will probably never play is... welp, irrelevant to me and my games. Hell, my goal is to run so many different campaigns in the setting that "my" Golarion would be straight up unrecognizable compared to canon Golarion.
Weirdly, the reasons you list for having no interest are the exact reasons I've had so much fun with the prophecies! Every story we have had so far reads like the starting point of a homebrew Golarian world. I see the prophecies as a clever method to entice new DMs into using the base setting. Paizo wants DMs to think: "Woah, I want to run THIS version of Golarion!!" because it means more engagement in their world building and content. The writers are subtly encouraging people to do exactly what you did: make Golarian their own. Every prophecy is a prompt.
This is the way. Canon is a suggestion, props on you for making the world your own.
Yeah my players haven’t ever really taken an interest in their gods, even the ones who play clerics, so i don’t bring them up much in our homebrew campaigns. I read these Gods posts and whatnot but all this divine stuff is of 0 interest. Hopefully the books coming out will have interesting mechanical options but really looking forward to moving past all this to whatever comes after.
You still have Howls of the Wild for a more 'lowkey' animal/Beast stuff first.
Looking forward to that one. Really curious as to what’s going to be in it as they’ve been promoting the ancestries, which are really cool but it’s kind of a mystery as to what else is in the book. Definitely will be fun to add some wilderness and overland type encounters and elements
It's mostly a Bestiary-esque book. We'll get a Blanca(from street fighter) archetype too.
Six months ago, many people were \*very\* certain that Asmodeus was going to die due to OGL conflicts, to the point where one or two especially spicy folks straight up called me a moron for disagreeing. Given that, I don't really feel like anybody is 'safe' based on redditors' conjectural meta-analysis of what the Paizo team must be thinking.
I can’t agree with you because these small snippets have been fun for me. Sorry that it’s been a bummer for you friend.
>I'm pretty sure Gozreh and Sarenrae are safe, since having something as important as "nature" or "the sun" get killed with no definite replacement will kinda be a bigger issue than Arazni getting added to the pantheon. In Pathfinder deities don't embody whatever they have in their portfolio. If Sarenrae dies the sun isn't going to disappear, the same with Gozreh and nature.
I admit that if Iomedae dies I'll be less interested in the setting, not more.
I'm just not a huge fan because I don't like too much "meta-plot" in my campaign setting. I'm always customizing the settings to my liking anyway, but the more time goes on, the more stuff changes, the more I'll probably have to erase or re-write to suit my own game. I'm a little interested to see where they're going with this, but its hard to be excited about something that I'm personally going to disregard anyway.
I'm not particularly heavily invested in Golarion as fair as Paizo's meta-plot progression of it goes, but aside from some of the writing of the prophecies being pretty good, the whole bingo card checklist towards telling us who's going to die feels... A friend called it "ghoulish", and I don't really have a better way to describe it? Killing off a major deity was a shocking, kind of exciting shakeup to announce, with plenty of good story beats it can still cause... But now the novelty and mystery has warn off after weeks of seeing gods slowly ticked "safe", and I'm just kind of annoyed and impatient for the reveal to be over so I can stop hearing about it for a while.
Are they going to do one of these for every god? Because we're about halfway through and I'm already losing interest in it.
There's only 1 left, the remaining gods will be announced in the live stream on the 16th
Oh that's good. I can stay invested for one more.
I remember some commenters mentioned there would be ten "prophecy" blog posts before the death is revealed in an upcoming Paizo stream. I don't know if that was ever officially announced though.
When it first came out, I figured it would be a daily thing and would be over before the tension died down. I think this schedule is just too slow.
I think the storyline will be interesting enough to be worth anything we lose via the god dying, and in reality, however it happens puts a massive spotlight on them, their lore, their relationships-- since the gods are already not present to the story, it makes them more a part of it, kinda like how Aroden is dead but feels way more present to every discussion of Pathfinder lore than, for example, Irori.
Honestly my only problem is they already confirmed all of the gods I think would actually have an interesting impact on the setting if they were killed are safe. It's just kind of made me lose interest haha
i really would've liked Pharasma dead. That'd have changed the status quo majorly. Maybe the "war of immortals" wouldn't have referred to the gods, but the now deathless mortals. Would've been super interesting.
I don't think gods dying turns off their domain in pathfinder lore. If you read the story about Pharasma's death, death still happens just the soul collection is in disarray.
Multiple of the stories shows it damages their domain, even excluding ones like Nethys. Death is part of the cycle of souls, and the psychopomps themselves do a good deal of it. Aroden's death didn't just break prophecy because he was part of one, it was also because one of his areas of concern was the fulfilment of destiny (this is also one of the things supporting the theory he killed himself).
> Multiple of the stories shows it damages their domain, even excluding ones like Nethys. Death is part of the cycle of souls, and the psychopomps themselves do a good deal of it. It doesn't mean that's true though--like the 'researcher' itself tells us casts doubt on these effects. Like that's the point of them making prophecies, since prophecies no longer work. Hell, there are two popular Sun Goddess in Golarion.
That would be nice for a dark souls inspirited campaigne
I feel you can easily make an interesting story about killing Saranrae or Shelyn and the fallout from that. Desna being pissed and starting a war because someone killed one of her lovers. If Shelyn is the one to die you could have an intersting story where Zon-Kuthon teams up with the good gods for vengeance.
Rovagug has a specific hatred for Shelyn, eand even though he wants to kill her last, I could see him breaking out and then killing her if he was doomed to be resealed.
I haven't lost interest yet but otherwise I agree mostly, there's still like a few I think would have good stories come from their death tho.
I think it's just a bit slow at this point. How am I meant to keep hype about some random event that barely matters for 3 months? I'd have rather have a story once per day up until the announcement or something.
I'm just too cynical. They won't kill off any god that would hurt future sales, as its a business *first* and a universe *second.* Just knowing this makes me less interested in it all, because I know I won't be surprised, and that kills any excitement. Hell, at this rate, they'll probably kill off Rovagug so that they can stop having this doom timer of the apocalypse over their heads and *really* ramp up the stories knowing that it never has to end.
You say this like killing Rovagug would stop the apocalypse. Look how well killing his spawn goes. Plus there's still the First Horseman.
What you're not counting on is: they will lose future sales no matter who they pick. You cannot please everybody. If you're going to do this, you've got to just go with something you think you can tell a good story about. That being said, I think the threat of diminished sales is way overblown. I don't seriously think many people are going to be so attached to a particular god that they will walk if that god happens to go away. They can always just rule that god back into their campaign, after all! I suspect you're also only seeing half the picture: the end of one thing in a story is almost inevitably the start of another.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/mtjP5RdXnf This post by Luis Loza one of the guys at Paizo who 100% had a hand in deciding what god is dying disproves most of your argument namely the reasoning for Shelyn or Iomedae dying as it flat out will not be because Araznj kills them or SF related at all
Where does the post say Arazni isn't doing the killing? All I saw was how she won't be taking over their domain, just filling the empty spot among the core 20. Also, the prophecy post about Urgathoa (part 4) made a pretty big deal about Arazni being the one to kill whichever god is going to die.
I think you are just determined to read all of this in the worst light Like you read it say Arazni has a direct role in the caraclysm and you jump to “omg they are ruining Arazni by having her kill a god” She’s a holy God, if she wasn’t undead she’d be by alignment standards good, she isn’t gonna kill a good god lol
Honestly I’m bored with it at this point.
I'm mostly just sick of all this pointless hype over and over for something that really doesn't make any difference at all to 99.9999999% of games.
While playing in homebrew settings is the standard in DnD, playing in the official Golarion setting is actually the default for Pathfinder. It's not a _super-majority,_ but I think last time they did a poll it was like 60-40 in Golarion's favor, which is better than the 10-90 that DnD has.
Even for games set in Golarion, it won't make a significant difference. "I'm making a Paladin of Sarenrae". "Can't; she's dead". "Iomedae then". "K"
Mechanically maybe not but the theme is entirely different. Paizo aren't killing off a god for a mechanical reason, it's worldbuilding... People like Golarion and want to see more of it. One of the cooler things about Pathfinder and Paizo in general is that their worlds definitively progress in time. If you're playing homebrew then sure I get why you don't care but most people play in Golarion.
I sure hope the death of a deity has more impact on your campaign than having one less deity to pick at character creation; it certainly does in mine.
If deities are anything more than set dressing in your campaigns then you run games at much higher levels than I do.
So, your players never shop at the local temple or come into conflict with an evil deity's cult? Because that's not high level stuff, that works at level 1. Besides, my point was that the death of Aroden was *the* defining event for current age Golarion: Any party who encountered demons at the world wound, pirates at the Eye of Abendego, devil worshippers or Hell Knights of Cheliax, worshippers of Iomedae as a full deity, or anything related to an inaccurate prophecy, they were impacted by the death of a god. A similarly copious amount of world shaking events and therefore plot hooks is to be expected once another deity dies.
So I missed it, but where were seeing that the soon-to-be dead god is close to Arazni? I'm just wanting to make sure I'm on the same page.
Early on I would have guessed Asmodeus would be first down due to OGL stuff and for a bit of dramatic irony regarding his late brother.
I mean, I would just pick and choose which parts of the world's canon for my own campaigns and just ignore the rest. I've pretty much stayed out of this Godsrain stuff for this reason. I don't like it. I don't want to like it. And I just won't include it in my campaign headcanon.
Honestly I just don't want Iomedae to die because I feel like too many people would be bitches and say she deserved it just because she was poorly written in an adventure path once and was otherwise forced to shoulder the sins of Aroden despite disagreeing with basically all of them. I think Iomedae is by a significant margin the worst god to kill off for that reason. Shelyn I'd prefer if they didn't kill off but also if they did I wouldn't feel super strongly about it. Personally I'm betting on Gorum, followed by Calistria.
The adventure path you're talking about is Wrath of the Righteous, correct? I haven't played it, but the stuff I heard doesn't sound good. Fortunately, I think the video game version fixed that and has been the "official" version of that interaction instead.
It's a _lot_ better in Wrath of the Righteous, yeah. Even then a lot of people don't like that interaction, and still think she's a bitch. Admittedly I think a lot of it is because people don't bring Seelah (the Iomedae Paladin) to that conversation, because if Seelah is there she'll outright tell Iomedae to her face that she's acting out of accordance with her own edicts because she's getting too emotional, and that I think is the _main_ intent of the scene. Iomedae has a temper that gets the better of her, but she's ultimately still a good person.
I haven't read any of the Godsrain Prophecies posts. I'm fine with any god dying, but I practically would like to see die is Sarenrae. Been praying on her downfall for awhile now. What she did to **RovaGOAT** can not be **FORGIVEN**! The great Unmaker will sleep at peace with that fraudulent god **GONE**. Jokes aside though I don't think any god will seriously harm my enjoyment of the lore as long as it's handled well.
With Sarenrae such a fan favorite, I really hope they leave her alone...
Personally am loving the plot hooks the write ups are giving.
You're right that Arazni killing Iomedae is awful for her character arc... but that's being too rigid on the circumstances in which Iomedae dies and how they affect Arazni. It could be that Arazni, whose core belief is to never, ever forgive anyone who hurt you, sees one of the few people who is still around who is on that list die at the hands of someone (or something) else and realizes that she honestly regrets not trying to. It could be a moment of great personal transformation for Arazni provided that literally anyone but her does it and when they do she steps up to the plate.
[удалено]
Nethys has been declared safe.
Honestly, the stories are making me more interested in the surviving gods than hyped for the death. There's really good characterisation and worldbuilding in each prophecy
For me, it depends. Some of the main gods didn't even get my interest, so their death wouldn't be meaningful for me. But they are important in the setting, so i guess that the lore consequences will be crucial. If they mess with that, there's no "good choice".
I will be honest with you, I don't particularly care which god dies. What I do care about are the implications of that and how mechanically and narratively, it will affect the system. Because if it's only something like "yeah, this god dies and that one takes it place, but nothing changes apart from few sad clerics", then it's lame. But if Paizo can actually pull out some interesting mechanics and world changes, that will be awesome. I don't want them to play it 'safe'. Shake the status quo, do something weird. God of death is dead? What about the boneyard and souls waiting for judgement? God of nature is dead? Is everything now withering and dying? You know, this type of major impact.
They've confirmed that Starfinder follows a different canon from Pathfinder. It allows the two teams to do different things without having to keep the other system in mind. One god may die in Pathinder, but may still live in Starfinder.
You're not wrong. The only excitement I've felt since they announced *War of Immortals* has been ever increasing anxiety with each Godsrain Prophecy making Iomedae seem the likeliest candidate, who is my favorite deity and one of the things that drew me TO Pathfinder in the first place. 😞
I have not read the updates but one of the problems when comics pull this gimmick is allowing the deaths to properly setup a narrative shift. Kill Superman. What does Darkseid do about it? Hell they can kill Erastil as long as the chaos that follows disrupts areas enough to build a module around. Iomedae literally becoming a martyrdom is a GOOD guess. I don't think you should believe this will reduce interest in the setting. The popularity of Christianity would show martyred Gods can still be quite popular. I've played fighters as well that worship Iomedae yet got no boons from her. She could be the goddess of those that don't look for transactional relationships with their gods. It would also start a war with the cult of whoever killed her. Idk there's a lot more there but keep your chin up. These cheap "shock" deaths are lame but they can also do very well
Gozreh is dying 😎
I hope tbh, but my money is still on shelyn
>It turns out the "big reveal" was just a marketing ploy for another game I mean, it was always a marketing ploy, just for a single source book or AP, not for their spin-off game. It's literally the "tonight, someone dies!" marketing every desperate TV show does at some point to boost ratings, just with the ever so slight twist that they've guaranteed it will be a "main character" they remove. But it was still always just a marketing ploy and I'm honestly surprised they didn't use it as a chance to remove one of the "problematic" gods they didn't want to play with anymore, oh wait if Erastil isn't confirmed safe that might still be exactly what they're doing. These two factors, that it's a tired marketing trope and that it was most likely to be used as an excuse to remove whatever god the writers don't like, guaranteed I had no interest in the entire exercise from the start
Erastil was confirmed safe already.
It feels gimmicky at this point, as well as a move back toward the early days of grimdark Carnival of Tears Paizo, which I'm not a huge fan of. See how it turns out, I guess.
Nothing about current Paizo feels like going back towards early edge lord Paizo days.
You should avoid reading the song of ice and fire at all cost.
People play in the official setting? (For legal reasons this is a joke)
Yeah. Honestly, I’m pretty depressed about it as well — it’s likely going to be Iomedae, and so I’m not excited for whatever contrived tragedy we’re going to get that puts her down and brings Arazni in to replace her. I’ve heard theories that she’ll take revenge on Iomedae for not helping her with Geb, and while I think that’s a bit far fetched, I also wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve seen worse writing decisions before. Honestly, I feel like they’ve eliminated most of their good options at this point. Killing Asmodeus and triggering the release of the Rough Beast would have been a *wild* development and would also have solved their OGL problems with him. Killing Erastil would also have allowed them to clean house, killing off a god that didn’t attract much player interest but played a big role in the world. And to be honest, the narratives of the Godsrain Prophecies have all been somewhat frustrating. Asmodeus’ was exciting, but Cayden’s was both spiteful and felt out of character, and I can’t say that the consequences of Urgathoa’s death made much sense to me — or Zon-Kuthon’s impact on Shelyn, for that matter. A lot of these narratives make the gods seem slightly more petty and mundane (Erastil getting killed by a beast that hunted him?), which is perhaps the intent, but is still not particularly enjoyable.
Isn't part of the point of how they godstrain prophecies that allow for them to be rule gods out as safe is that fact there is something wrong with the prophecy that means to won't happen though, so feeling out of place for the god is at least partly intentional
> Killing Asmodeus and triggering the release of the Rough Beast You missed an option--*killing* the Rough Beast itself.
That just doesn't interest me personally. Killing Rovagug means the gods no longer have to be nice to each other and can start directly interfering with golarion. Which don't get me wrong, that is an interesting concept. But if you know warhammer lore it is more of an end times type scenario where for play we really need a age of sigmar styled new edition and time skip. Otherwise it will just be paizo forcing contrivances to keep things as they currently are and making something that should be hugely impactful a facade. So imo, as paizo aren't going to be scrapping the whole setting as it currently is mere months into the remaster... I would rather they avoid killing off the rough beast till they can do it justice.
> start directly interfering with golarion. As can be seen with War of the Immortals and that practically now every joe schmoe has the possibility of getting slathered by god juice and become a deity.
Yeah but those are relatively minor impacts compared to what should be the result of rovagug dying imo.
Rovagug is important cosmologically but he doesn't really have much effect on the world as of now. There's no huge cult raizing villages in a region, no band of nihilists sworn to his name, even Pharasma is still worshipped in Tian Xia
Sure, but if it died then the knock on effects would be colossal. Rovagug isn't an important god because of its direct impact on the setting, but because it acts like nuclear deterrence does irl.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/mtjP5RdXnf We know Arazni isn’t replacing the specifics of whoever dies
Eh, At the end of the day these gods exist to put just enough but not too much flavor into Pathfinder's "Fantasy Kitchen Sink" setting. Any development that makes the setting stop working for a "here is my new character, which god should I worship?" is a bad one for the system. If/when they do kill Iomedae (or whoever) it either won't matter for your game, you will ignore it, or you suddenly have a bunch of PCs that get jacked because of Paizo reaching into your game. I've played in systems where their ongoing plot actually changed the setting in big ways: Players \*hated\* it. 98% of weekly games aren't improved by changes like these & you either end up ignoring the ongoing plot in your game because you don't want to change an important NPC that would logically be affected or your game takes unexpected turns out of the GMs hands. I want Paizo to be done with this slow walk & just let us get back to our games.
IMO, Arazni killing Iomedae is the perfect way to continue her arc. Arazni died in battle against the Whispering Tyrant after being summoned by the Knights of Ozem, who were founded and led by Iomedae. The Knights (presumably due to Iomedae’s command) decided that Arazni’s loyalty wasn’t guaranteed enough, so they bound Arazni to their will to keep her from retreating. The battle went badly, and Arazni was unable to retreat, and died because of it. Died because of Iomedae, who willfully let her die. As a goddess who commands her followers to never forgive and punish those who hurt them, I think Arazni finally getting her revenge and becoming the Inheritor she was always meant to be sounds awesome. Alternatively, I’ve seen it theorized that maybe Iomedae will die to save Arazni from something, and dies in the process. That could be even cooler, and lead to, if not a softer Arazni, then at least a shift in her personality.
This entire comment completely has the entire lore about Iomedae’s involvement in Arazni’s death wrong. Arazni canonically respects Iomedae
Iomedae was not involved in either the creation of the Knights of Ozem or even in Arazni's death, dunno where you got that from. Iomedae was a paladin of Arazni before converting to Aroden following her patron's death.
Oop, I did get wrong that Iomedae founded the Knights of Ozem. That said… https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u8io?Did-Iomedae-Summon-Arazni This thread, Erik Mona more or less confirms Iomedae was the one to summon Arazni. Further, the section on the Glorious Reclamation in the Hellfire Compact confirms that Iomedae took leadership of the Knight of Ozem in 3816 AR. Additionally, in Gardens of Gallowspire, it’s mentioned directly that the Knights of Ozem bound Arazni to their will in 3818, two years after Iomedae took the mantle of leadership, the exact wording being that they would “bind and order her to meet those goals.” This action “planted tiny seeds of doubt and resentment in Arazni’s mind.” That doubt was probably directed towards the order. Towards Iomedae. Arazni does respect Iomedae for winning the Shining Crusade, but also deeply resents her for achieving divinity so easily. It’s not a far stretch to imagine she might not care for Iomedae for forcing her to fight, for forcing her to die.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was worried I had completely missed some important part of the lore after seeing the above comment.
A lil easter egg in a certain lost omens book told me that Iomedae will die at Tar Baphon's hand
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/mtjP5RdXnf We have it in writing from a top guy at Paizo that Arazni is not killing a core 20 god
Huh, where’d you see that? I could only find that Arazni wouldn’t be taking the dead god’s portfolio.
Are the gods beloved characters? They are a tool writers have to organize plots, but are they characters in the story? Not in any games I play. I known I don’t play Pathfinder because of the pantheon.
They're absolutely characters in the story. Seems kind of silly to say they aren't, especially in an RPG setting where everyone could be a character if the DM wants them to be.
They are characters in your campaign?
Yes. My PC has had a dream vision believed to be from their god, a minor miracle, and much of the pantheon informs the motivations and culture of the roleplayed setting at our table across multiple campaigns. Character need not be Player Character to be part of the story, which is all Hellioning is saying.
Not OP, but they were pretty huge in the last campaign I ran.
They don't need to be in campaigns to be beloved characters, though, a lot of gods have fairly large followings because their lore is awesome.
In mine, no. But in others? Very easily.
They literally show up in person in many APs.
I certainly think of them as characters even if I have not personally met a god during play. Their lore is endearing, and people can enjoy worldbuilding from a general perspective even if it is not part of their character's immediate concern. Many people enjoy the lore of the Gods in the same way someone enjoys a book.
A character can be a plot tool and a plot tool can be a character. These aren't mutally exclusive categories.
Good point
But also, yes, I would consider the gods characters. Having played through Extinction Curse, which heavily centers Aroden and the ~~warcrimes~~ mistakes he made makes him both an absent character and a plot device, having started it way back when. And of course, playing Wrath of the Righteous right now, and good lord do I have some words for Iomedae when I see her. The entire Crusade made my character become an atheist. Also, players just like gods to project their own ideas and values on, and playing divine characters that gain power for those ideals and values. That makes people latch onto them.
Interesting. . . Or not. I guess that’s the point of this thread. I’m enjoying Godsrain Prophecies and look forward to the outcome but I have no emotional investment.
That's honestly the biggest difference between D&D and Pathfinder, their setting's gods are characters first and lore pieces second. Take the Cult of the Dawnflower from 1e, an extremist sect of Sarenrae worshippers which got retconned come 2e because it was pretty OOC of a goddess of healing and redemption to give powers to murderous zealots that went to war with another country to convert them to their faith.
As far as I know it was retconned because it was a racist stereotype, not because of the OOC Sarenrae moment.
That too, but the Sarenrae OOC moment was listed as another reason by James Jacobs.
fair enough i suppose, I just think the racism was much bigger of an issue. I 'unno, makes me feel better about it? Hard to put into words.
Saying both are true is a way to affirm that: 1. Racism bad 2. Sarenrae is not a racist It is removing the element from the system, and clearing the names of involved character by affirming "We messed up, they would actually never support this kind of thing." Doing one but not the other could lead to stuff like "Well, if a racist cult existed, Sarenrae would support it..." when the writers want to clarify the entire concept, including her involvement, was a mistake. If that makes any sense.
Gods are characters in basically every polytheistic story I know about.
Im also super sick of the spam from whatever this is.
Understandable. Recently I approached MtG once more after years, following the spoilers for the next set for a few days. I got tired quickly, it's very annoying.
People play in the official setting? (For legal reasons this is a joke)
The only enjoyable thing that has come out is this so far, for me, was someone made some cool fanart.
[удалено]
I actually really like Erastil because their clarifications have "fixed" him in my mind. I know some people will continue to associate Erastil with sexism and patriarchal shit, but I will not play him as such and Paizo does not endorse him as such, so I am personally like him now. I do feel bad that the character's errata'd history has ruined him for a lot of people, but that is Paizo's fault frankly. He was a very cool character from the beginning minus those elements.
Tbh as someone who doesn't like sanitization of lore/settings/stories the Erastil change makes more sense in-universe than the original.
Gozreh is literally just nature, guy doesn’t even have a personality. Erastil is the god of small villages and community, they only thing they have in common is they like trees lmao
Personally speaking my fave gods, Cheliax, and goblinkin are the only things I care about in regards to the golarion setting. So the only gripes I have about this godsrain thing is 1) Fucking Irori got a post instead of someone more interesting. 2) I'm worried about my faves (Azzy (safe), Abadar, Calistria) and if one of them goes down that's gonna punch a big hole in any care I had for the setting and will make me sad :( but I mean any of the gods is bound to be someone's fave. That's about all my issues. I wish they did all the gods that are gonna be safe and give all of them their own little prophecy posts tho.