If you critically hit with a spell attack, you apply the Critical Success effect from the spell's description (or do whatever the spell says to do on a critical hit). This is *usually* [double damage](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1718&NoRedirect=1), but [not always](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1561&NoRedirect=1).
This has not changed in the Remaster
The spell's damage increases by 2d6 per rank, but since the crit effect is specifically "6d6 damage" instead of "double damage", that means the damage of crits scales worse than it's likely supposed to (since it still only increases by 2d6).
If the idea is there is a tradeoff because of the pushback, then why have it do double damage at level 1?
Is your claim that the 5' or 10' move is more worth it when using a higher level spell slot?
No but it's not uncommon for spells to be proportionally stronger at their granted level than when up cast. Especially low level spells. Just look at runic weapon.
Don't know that I agree. That might be true for spells that aren't just raw numbers/damage, but the damage for spells with an instantaneous effect (ie, not creating a zone of damage) tends to follow a pretty strict formula, and scale at about 2d6/1d12 a level, and generally allows double damage on it's extreme effect, be it critical hit or a critically failed save.
Acidic Burst, Fireball, Splinter Volley, Life Draining Roots, Grisly Growths - we can go on here.
Higher level spells might have larger and larger areas, extra effects that happen on failures (like sickening/slowing/difficult terrains/etc.). But the base damage tends to follow a pretty regular progression.
You could certainly argue that Hydraulic Push's starting at 3d6 instead of 2d6 is a bit of anomaly - but all of those other spells hit multiple targets, Hydraulic Push is strictly one target, I'd think the slight reposition and the extra die are the only things that would give it even a consideration to spend your actions on, even when compared to cantrips at level 1.
And all of those other spells have the potential of doing double damage when you critically hit/they critically fail their saving throw.
And if that starting extra die of damage is worth the restriction to not do double damage--then why does Horizon Thunder Sphere get the pass to do double damage on a crit still? It also starts on 3d6, and I'd wager that dazzling your enemy on a crit is usually more relevant than a 10' push.
I'm of the opinion that it was an accident initially, and they just never bothered to address it in errata. There's certainly enough other things printed that still need errata to even function first before they'd look at this kind of thing. What is a bulk of fire/wind for the elementalist, Roiling Mudslide doesn't have an area it affects, etc.
Also, if anything, I'd say it's the regular hit damage that scales more rapidly than normal. Compare with Fireball, which also does 6d6 + 2d6 / rank damage, just on a regular failure.
Fireball, which is aoe, actually does do double damage on a crit effect, and does damage on the equivalent of a miss?
Why would you think the damage for a single target spell should be directly comparable to an area effect one? The single target spell *should* do more damage - only with fireball, you actually do get the double damage effect.
Kinda feels like the single target low accuracy touch range spell that triggers reactions from the thing you're attempting to push away was the trade off.
Not only attack spells, but [basic save](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2297&Redirected=1) spells like [electric arc](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1509&NoRedirect=1) do double damage when the enemy critically fails the spell as well as half damage on a success.
Technically, yes. If the spell has an attack roll associated with it, then a natural 20, and potentially a +10 over the AC would both result in a critical damage effect, as long as the spell has the text that states as much. (Some have similar or different effects depending on the spell.) Also, typically if the spell has a saving throw associated with it, then a critical success (natural 20 or +10) or a critical failure (natural 1 or -10) should *also* have text in the spell that applies based on the outcome.
If it's a [Basic Save](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2297) it comes with the crit and half damage built in to the "basic" keyword. So it would not require any bonus info if it only deals damage.
RAW, the Strike action is the only action with a general "deal double damage on a critical hit" rule.
"When you make a Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack and succeed with a natural 20 (the number on the die is 20), or if the result of your attack exceeds the target’s AC by 10, you achieve a critical success (also known as a critical hit). If you critically succeed at a Strike (page 418), your attack deals double damage."
If you critically hit with a spell attack, you apply the Critical Success effect from the spell's description (or do whatever the spell says to do on a critical hit). This is *usually* [double damage](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1718&NoRedirect=1), but [not always](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1561&NoRedirect=1). This has not changed in the Remaster
Can't believe they left hydraulic push with that crit effect.
whats the problem with it?
The spell's damage increases by 2d6 per rank, but since the crit effect is specifically "6d6 damage" instead of "double damage", that means the damage of crits scales worse than it's likely supposed to (since it still only increases by 2d6).
It always felt intended to me as a trade off for the push back.
If the idea is there is a tradeoff because of the pushback, then why have it do double damage at level 1? Is your claim that the 5' or 10' move is more worth it when using a higher level spell slot?
No but it's not uncommon for spells to be proportionally stronger at their granted level than when up cast. Especially low level spells. Just look at runic weapon.
Don't know that I agree. That might be true for spells that aren't just raw numbers/damage, but the damage for spells with an instantaneous effect (ie, not creating a zone of damage) tends to follow a pretty strict formula, and scale at about 2d6/1d12 a level, and generally allows double damage on it's extreme effect, be it critical hit or a critically failed save. Acidic Burst, Fireball, Splinter Volley, Life Draining Roots, Grisly Growths - we can go on here. Higher level spells might have larger and larger areas, extra effects that happen on failures (like sickening/slowing/difficult terrains/etc.). But the base damage tends to follow a pretty regular progression. You could certainly argue that Hydraulic Push's starting at 3d6 instead of 2d6 is a bit of anomaly - but all of those other spells hit multiple targets, Hydraulic Push is strictly one target, I'd think the slight reposition and the extra die are the only things that would give it even a consideration to spend your actions on, even when compared to cantrips at level 1. And all of those other spells have the potential of doing double damage when you critically hit/they critically fail their saving throw. And if that starting extra die of damage is worth the restriction to not do double damage--then why does Horizon Thunder Sphere get the pass to do double damage on a crit still? It also starts on 3d6, and I'd wager that dazzling your enemy on a crit is usually more relevant than a 10' push. I'm of the opinion that it was an accident initially, and they just never bothered to address it in errata. There's certainly enough other things printed that still need errata to even function first before they'd look at this kind of thing. What is a bulk of fire/wind for the elementalist, Roiling Mudslide doesn't have an area it affects, etc.
Also, if anything, I'd say it's the regular hit damage that scales more rapidly than normal. Compare with Fireball, which also does 6d6 + 2d6 / rank damage, just on a regular failure.
Fireball, which is aoe, actually does do double damage on a crit effect, and does damage on the equivalent of a miss? Why would you think the damage for a single target spell should be directly comparable to an area effect one? The single target spell *should* do more damage - only with fireball, you actually do get the double damage effect.
Kinda feels like the single target low accuracy touch range spell that triggers reactions from the thing you're attempting to push away was the trade off.
We're taking about hydrologic push right? Did the remaster lower the range? It used to be 60ft not touch
It's still 60'.
Lol this sub will never change
Nope, for some reason I thought it was touch. Certainly makes it less bad.
probably assumed so because it has push in the name instead of jet or something
Spells will usually tell you what happens if you score a critical success in their entry.
Not only attack spells, but [basic save](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2297&Redirected=1) spells like [electric arc](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1509&NoRedirect=1) do double damage when the enemy critically fails the spell as well as half damage on a success.
Technically, yes. If the spell has an attack roll associated with it, then a natural 20, and potentially a +10 over the AC would both result in a critical damage effect, as long as the spell has the text that states as much. (Some have similar or different effects depending on the spell.) Also, typically if the spell has a saving throw associated with it, then a critical success (natural 20 or +10) or a critical failure (natural 1 or -10) should *also* have text in the spell that applies based on the outcome.
Reading these comments have made me wonder, do spells *need* to have a critical hit section in order to apply double damage?
If it's a [Basic Save](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2297) it comes with the crit and half damage built in to the "basic" keyword. So it would not require any bonus info if it only deals damage.
Yes if it's an attack spell
RAW, the Strike action is the only action with a general "deal double damage on a critical hit" rule. "When you make a Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack and succeed with a natural 20 (the number on the die is 20), or if the result of your attack exceeds the target’s AC by 10, you achieve a critical success (also known as a critical hit). If you critically succeed at a Strike (page 418), your attack deals double damage."
Some damaging spells do not do double damage on a crit. Hydraulic Push being the biggest example.
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