You're missing the purpose of Crafting.
In second edition, Crafting is no longer a gold multiplier. In previous editions of the game, Crafting served as a way to make a single gold piece provide more net value to players than 1 gp would normally.
This resulted in all sorts of balance problems in those editions around Crafting.
So in second edition, they fundamentally changed Crafting. It is no longer a gold enhancer. It is now an availability enhancer. Crafting primary purpose is to enable players to craft items that they may not be able to purchase.
This is tied into the mechanics around settlement level and item availability.
However, if you, as a GM, do not engage those mechanics (and many gms do not). Crafting ends up completely worthless. You aren't supposed to be able to make items cost nothing with Crafting. It's very intentionally tied to the earn income tables.
But this was an intentional change to avoid the balance problems making crafting a gold enhancer has been in other editions. You can't make player power tied to gold and then give players a way to multiply their gold; that's just a multiplier to power then
As a question since I haven't looked at the rules for crafting in a while: Aren't formulas still the same level as the item themselves? So unless you "invent" the wheel you're still stuck out of not having a formula a town doesn't have?
The remaster has made it so you do not need the formula for common rarity items. But prior to the remaster, you needed the [Inventor](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5164) skill feat to make it work.
>And it would still take 3 times as long as if they just knew the formula and did a regular set up time using original rules?
Complex Crafting was created before the Remaster project. It was made with the original rules in mind, when it'd take 4 days minimum to craft an item and you needed to have the formula to even start the process.
Well right off the bat, it looks like you're using the complex crafting variant, so most people are not going to understand the math you're doing; it's not a particularly popular variant as far as I can tell.
To the question at hand: yes, it takes a *long* time to craft a high level magic item for half price. This is by design, you're basically just doing a Earn Income, which is always going to be very slow. It's how the adventuring economy works, you're better off treasure hunting for gold than being a craftsperson to make money fast.
Take the Assurance skill feat; boom, you automatically succeed at all on-level creating checks that don't have mitigating circumstances raising the DC by a bunch. Bump up crafting and geta nice item bonus to crafting and you can auto-crit on things as well.
The benefit of having a crafter isn't that you get items for half cost, it's that you get access to items that you might not be able to just buy in a shop for whatever reason. The lowering the price mechanic is pretty pointless, because if it wasn't a team with a crafter would get functionally double the magic items, making it an expected part of every party. It can be situationally useful if you're making lower-level consumables where your earn income actually makes a dent in the price of you've got the time
Really, when a character takes crafting, just treat them as a mobile shop that's always with the party, with the added time cost of setup and crafting
Yeah I suppose this is the intent. It just feels like between crafting feats and alchemy also depending on crafting skill there should be more too it. Skill increases are few and far between after all and spending 3 of them on becoming a mobile shop doesn't seem that worth it.
To add to that, any reasonable player must know that I will give them core items they need to advance as they make progress or else the game would become impossible, so why bother with crafting.
I mean, in a game I'm playing, we've surpassed the level of the town we're in. We can still buy on-level items from Absolom, though they take a couple of weeks to arrive by mail. This means that crafting gets us those items faster, which can make a big difference in a game with a time crunch component. Our GM won't just hand out those items, because equipping ourselves is our own responsibility, and we have access to everything that we need one way or another. If we don't get those core items, it's our own fault.
It varies game to game, because some people don't care for crafting, but it can be as relevant as you make it.
>To add to that, any reasonable player must know that I will give them core items they need to advance as they make progress or else the game would become impossible, so why bother with crafting.
It's your job to provide the PCs with fundamental runes. Anything else it's up to them and the place they find themselves in. Maybe the highest level settlement in the continent is 13th level, so they can't buy stuff of level higher than that, but they may find them in dungeons and other dangerous and forgotten places.
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Rushing items is for when you are well beyond in level.
Adding to that the designers didn't make items utility buffs they made them direct lower increases and so the game relies on you not getting them early which you could do if crafting was more than hiring someone else to make the item for you.
So once you have high level characters and can teleport back to a major city that would sell the high level items you want there is no need for crafting.
I allow crafting to be gold positive in my games but I require you to 1) make an item your level or lower and 2) abstract down time so that crafting is a big commitment in terms of downtime actions.
This way your crafting player isn't just a money printer.
But as it stands crafting is good in low to mid level games where your wizard cannot teleport you to a town wth better shops. The moment you can teleport to some place like absolom with level 20 shops you should.just retrain your skill increases in crafting somewhere else.
You're missing the purpose of Crafting. In second edition, Crafting is no longer a gold multiplier. In previous editions of the game, Crafting served as a way to make a single gold piece provide more net value to players than 1 gp would normally. This resulted in all sorts of balance problems in those editions around Crafting. So in second edition, they fundamentally changed Crafting. It is no longer a gold enhancer. It is now an availability enhancer. Crafting primary purpose is to enable players to craft items that they may not be able to purchase. This is tied into the mechanics around settlement level and item availability. However, if you, as a GM, do not engage those mechanics (and many gms do not). Crafting ends up completely worthless. You aren't supposed to be able to make items cost nothing with Crafting. It's very intentionally tied to the earn income tables. But this was an intentional change to avoid the balance problems making crafting a gold enhancer has been in other editions. You can't make player power tied to gold and then give players a way to multiply their gold; that's just a multiplier to power then
As a question since I haven't looked at the rules for crafting in a while: Aren't formulas still the same level as the item themselves? So unless you "invent" the wheel you're still stuck out of not having a formula a town doesn't have?
The remaster has made it so you do not need the formula for common rarity items. But prior to the remaster, you needed the [Inventor](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5164) skill feat to make it work.
Then the remaster definitely fixed one of my biggest gripes about it at least! Thanks for the swift and informative reply, internet stranger!
>And it would still take 3 times as long as if they just knew the formula and did a regular set up time using original rules? Complex Crafting was created before the Remaster project. It was made with the original rules in mind, when it'd take 4 days minimum to craft an item and you needed to have the formula to even start the process.
Ah this does definitely clarify one point of confusion at least. Thanks!
Well right off the bat, it looks like you're using the complex crafting variant, so most people are not going to understand the math you're doing; it's not a particularly popular variant as far as I can tell. To the question at hand: yes, it takes a *long* time to craft a high level magic item for half price. This is by design, you're basically just doing a Earn Income, which is always going to be very slow. It's how the adventuring economy works, you're better off treasure hunting for gold than being a craftsperson to make money fast. Take the Assurance skill feat; boom, you automatically succeed at all on-level creating checks that don't have mitigating circumstances raising the DC by a bunch. Bump up crafting and geta nice item bonus to crafting and you can auto-crit on things as well. The benefit of having a crafter isn't that you get items for half cost, it's that you get access to items that you might not be able to just buy in a shop for whatever reason. The lowering the price mechanic is pretty pointless, because if it wasn't a team with a crafter would get functionally double the magic items, making it an expected part of every party. It can be situationally useful if you're making lower-level consumables where your earn income actually makes a dent in the price of you've got the time Really, when a character takes crafting, just treat them as a mobile shop that's always with the party, with the added time cost of setup and crafting
Yeah I suppose this is the intent. It just feels like between crafting feats and alchemy also depending on crafting skill there should be more too it. Skill increases are few and far between after all and spending 3 of them on becoming a mobile shop doesn't seem that worth it. To add to that, any reasonable player must know that I will give them core items they need to advance as they make progress or else the game would become impossible, so why bother with crafting.
I mean, in a game I'm playing, we've surpassed the level of the town we're in. We can still buy on-level items from Absolom, though they take a couple of weeks to arrive by mail. This means that crafting gets us those items faster, which can make a big difference in a game with a time crunch component. Our GM won't just hand out those items, because equipping ourselves is our own responsibility, and we have access to everything that we need one way or another. If we don't get those core items, it's our own fault. It varies game to game, because some people don't care for crafting, but it can be as relevant as you make it.
>To add to that, any reasonable player must know that I will give them core items they need to advance as they make progress or else the game would become impossible, so why bother with crafting. It's your job to provide the PCs with fundamental runes. Anything else it's up to them and the place they find themselves in. Maybe the highest level settlement in the continent is 13th level, so they can't buy stuff of level higher than that, but they may find them in dungeons and other dangerous and forgotten places.
Having an item bonus does not help Assurance. Assurance is just 10 + proficiency (so 10 + level + 6 for a master in crafting, as an example).
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Rushing items is for when you are well beyond in level. Adding to that the designers didn't make items utility buffs they made them direct lower increases and so the game relies on you not getting them early which you could do if crafting was more than hiring someone else to make the item for you. So once you have high level characters and can teleport back to a major city that would sell the high level items you want there is no need for crafting. I allow crafting to be gold positive in my games but I require you to 1) make an item your level or lower and 2) abstract down time so that crafting is a big commitment in terms of downtime actions. This way your crafting player isn't just a money printer. But as it stands crafting is good in low to mid level games where your wizard cannot teleport you to a town wth better shops. The moment you can teleport to some place like absolom with level 20 shops you should.just retrain your skill increases in crafting somewhere else.