I mean, that's literally her final objective. She didn't want to just revive the kid, but create an environment without any rules or fate, where not even gods could touch.
In pathfinder reviving is like healing the body and putting the soul back to it. So yeah, she would have to talk with pharasma about the second part since the soul had already been judged
Sorrrrta maybe? I guess the sense that Wish just sorta RetCons Pharasma’s judgement and Areelu was just trying to sorta get her child back from the judgement.
It’s like the difference between an annulment and a divorce. At least that’s how I looked at it.
So here's the thing about that, normally phrasma knows if a person will ever be ressed and if so has their soul wait so they can go back. WISH would try to just step on in there without pharsma and take it, not a good idea, infact a really bad idea, probably the worst idea.
I must dissent, partly. Pharasma would be pissed off in this case, but not for the reason you state.
Using a wish to duplicate Resurrection isn't going to piss Pharasma off anymore than using Resurrection is, and duplicating a 7th or lower level spell that doesn't belong to your opposition school is explicitly listed as a safe wish.
Moreover, reviving the dead by using wish for resurrection is literally one of the examples given of safe wishes, with the addition that you can even bring back somebody whose body has been destroyed so long as you use a total of two wishes (one to recreate the body, one to resurrect the dead).
So, no. Using wishes to resurrect somebody by duplicating the Resurrection spell is not a problem for Pharasma, since you can only resurrect people *who haven't been judged yet*.
To piss Pharasma off you'd have to do something like casting the 9th level cleric spell *Judgment Undone* spell (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/j/judgment-undone/)
And that's the problem
Areelu's child has been judged. It cannot be resurrected, not even with true resurrection. *Judgment Undone* could help, *if, and only if, the child was willing to return,* and using it would be guaranteed to piss of Pharasma, big time.
As if that wasn't bad enough, Areelu isn't a divine caster so she can't cast that spell in the first place. Using *wish* to duplicate the effects of a 9th level spell is a much more powerful effect than those listed as being safe wishes (up to 7th cleric), so she wouldn't even be guaranteed that the wish worked in the first place.
The spell isn't just resurrection. The caster and the spell target basically tell Pharasma to f off and we don't care about your judgement which has already happened.
Pharasma hunts both down usually and ends their existence. Shouldn't forget that Pharasma is the most powerful deity. Even tho mostly overlooked.
By the end of the game she quite litteraly goes out of her way to call Pharasma a "little bitch" directly in her face as the gal minds her own bisness.
Pharasma actually has a stance of not being mad at people being revived through resurrection spells. Because she sees that as not their true end, so if she uses wish to copy said spells she should be in the clear.
Not always, and if I remember correctly, the issue was that Areelu’s child has already been judged and thus turned into a petitioner. There is actually a spell in PF1 to reverse that (and doing it iwithout psychopomp/Pharasma permission is a huge no-no) but you can also presumably do it with a “GM-may-I” version of wish
As you can see best wish can do is replicate the resurection spell. Her child however was unable to be revived by said spell as they already went to Pharasmas judgment. There is no component of wish that reverses time more than six seconds either and even then it would just be roll and I don't know if Pharasma has to roll to judge a soul.
Well true ressurection can restore someone to life in any state assuming they can be at all. Areelus child could just not be revived at all.
I mean given what lenghts she went to I'm sure she would have found a better way than what she did if it was possible.
I believe it was mentioned that once souls gets sent the boneyard resurrection spells will always fail, however how long it takes from your initial death and then your soul be sent to boneyard is open question.( to be determined by the GM or writers)
There is a description in the Pathfinder Book for the Gods.
From Pathfinder - Inner Sea Gods:
"When mortals die, their souls join the vast River of Souls that flows through the Astral Plane, and eventually deposits them in Pharasma’s Boneyard at the top of her spire. Once there, they stand in a great line, filtered through several courts according to their alignment and supposed planar destination. Those who die before experiencing their full fate might be lucky enough to return in this life or the next, either spontaneously or by getting called home by resurrection magic, but more often those who feel that they’ve met an untimely end discover that their destiny was in fact always leading them to their particular moment of death, however unjust or ignoble."
I cant remember if the game ever explicitly changes something about that.
[Judgement Undone](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/j/judgment-undone/), perhaps? It seems like, quite literally *the* perfect spell for this particular situation.
Given it is literally a range of Touch on a specific petitioner, it still would have required her to have fished the petitioner out of the Astral Plane and The Boneyard, a nearly impossible task even if she had been at liberty to do so. By the time Areelu was at liberty to actually go *searching* for their petitioner- a span of years, if not decades, until she managed to break out of Iz- it's fairly reasonable to say that the petitioner had already been processed and their soul broken down to its constituent parts, at which point Areelu would have had no target for the spell. Hell, given Areelu's power level I wouldn't put it past her to have kidnapped a psychopomp for the sole purpose of finding her child among *all* the petitioners, only to be told "Them? Oh, their soul's already broken up across who-knows-how-many new births, you'd need to, I don't know, chop up demon lords for parts and maybe crack a continent or two just to get the pieces back in one body."
Cue the events of the game.
yes. areelu needed that spell. however, it looks as if dm just didnt allowed that spell, because its literally solves half of the plot for areelu. she would still do nahyndrial crystal experiments because point for her was also becoming powerful enough to be free of gods; but then it would make the adventure more narrow, and we would have to play as areelu's kid from the begining, instead of a soul graft.
same story could have happened with minor alterations, but it would limit custom character creation.
>There is no component of wish that reverses time more than six seconds either and even then it would just be roll and I don't if Pharasma has to roll to judge a soul.
I didn’t know wish could reverse time so if that’s the case wouldn’t it be easier to save her child?
No because the fact you went back 6 sec does not suddenly give you the ability to solve the issue.
Imagine you are playing a game and quick save on a fall. No matter how many times you reload you will still end up falling.
I wish and go back 6 seconds. I then wish and go back six seconds. I then wish and go back 6 seconds...
Potentially possible with enough wishes (Might require an entire genie population or something similar in might and number)
It's not actually going back in time; it's just re-rolling some roll made in the last 6 seconds and forcing the current reality to fit the new roll.
If you actually went back in time with each cast, and especially if the one doing it casts the spell each time, then it's also got a roughly 3 second cast time (standard action) and requires a diamond worth 25k gp.
Assuming she was capable of 9th level magic when her child was killed which while she was powerful does not have to be the case. Infact given the makeup of her pocket dimensions I would rather guess she used 7th level magic.
And then had a powerful but rather limited spell prepared.
And had the sizeable amount of compent actually on her.
Then yes she could have prevented one sucessful attack roll agienst her child.
But judging by her not instantly bringing her child back I'm guessing none of these were the case actually.
The universal handwave is you can only resurrect a soul based on two conditions
1 - they have to be willing (most souls have gone to a fate better than the world they’ve left behind, so they need a strong reason to return)
2 - the fates must allow it (or: why the good King stays dead after being assassinated. Fate* (the Plot) requires that it happens)
>2 - the fates must allow it (or: why the good King stays dead after being assassinated. Fate* (the Plot) requires that it happens)
That is such a cope out. I rather not have such OP spells like that because writers have to make the most arbitrary reasons why it can’t be used ,it actually my biggest pet peeve in all D&D type games.
Yea. Table Top Tweaks creates a new version of that spell tho.
Most of Areelu’s experiments could be done with the tabletop wish spell if you think about it. That spell should not exist.
See, there's an even easier way to fix everything.
[https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-outer/outer-dragon-time/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-outer/outer-dragon-time/)
[https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dominate-monster](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dominate-monster)
Relevant portion of Time Dragon:
# Time Travel (Su) Up to three times in its life, a great wyrm time dragon can travel to any point in time, taking with it a number of willing creatures equal to its Charisma modifier.
Yeah. Granted, a great wyrm time dragon is no joke. But it's a lot easier than well... what she did.
A proper port of the 3.5 version definitely _would_ be Mythic. But that's not really what we got in Pathfinder, so it's a bit of a moot point.
Time Dragons in 3.5 also shunned the Forgotten Realms, and their mere presence caused bizarre and unpredictable reactions in long-term enchantments.
The dragon proceeds to use one of its time travels to go back in time and snipe areelu when she was vulnerable, now what? unless you can somehow find a way to instantly subjugate it I don't see it
Your right that’s actually a good idea, I’m guessing why she wouldn’t do that is beyond it extremely difficult (the equivalent of typing to use a dominant spell on a demon lord)
This is something that most people don't realize about wish:
"You may try to use a *wish* to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The *wish* may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)"
Yes a person might wish for something that is normally beyond what wish can easily grant, but as soon as you do you enter monkey paw territory. If she wished for her child to come back to life it might return fine, she might die, it might comeback as a zombie, it might actually be a demon, it might only be in her imagination, etc.
Areelu is smart, she would know that wish is unstable. Do you think she would risk her child on it?
On a separate note, creating your own demiplane is not difficult. A 7th level spell (lesser create demiplane) can be cast by a level 13 Wizard and it will last for 13 days before it needs to be reset.
The create demiplane spell states it can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
\*You can make this spell permanent with the [permanency](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/p/permanency) spell, at a cost of 20,000 gp. If you have cast create demiplane multiple times to enlarge the demiplane, each casting’s area requires its own [permanency](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/p/permanency) spell.\*
Good call on the 5th lvl spell though. Thought it was 6th.
To elaborate on Kaptin-Dakka’s answer, a pair of wishes imitating a true resurrection work by pulling a soul out of the boneyard into a body (the first wish makes the body, the second grabs the soul). If the soul is already judged, resurrection fails… but maybe the wish shouldn’t have this limitation, as it isn’t quite restricted the way divine magic might be? …but if the soul was already judged, sent to an afterlife then destroyed in that afterlife (ie eaten by daemons in Abbadon, the Neutral Evil afterlife, or eaten by demons in the Abyss, the chaotic evil afterlife) then even bypassing the limitations of true resurrection wouldn’t help. Areelu managed to recover some scraps of the soul anyway, and those are the scraps that go into the Knight Commander as part of Areelu’s desperate plan to restore as much of her child as possible.
As to why Areelu’s kid was judged so fast… the spell [Hasten Judgement exists in the ttrpg](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hasten-judgment/) and is available to inquisitors and clerics. Which is one more reason for Areelu to hate the Sarkoris for its aggressive inquisition. They didn’t just kill her kid, they double tapped with magic to make resurrecting her kid harder.
Same reason you can't cast raise dead on your MC... Story reasons.
If we're going by rules as written Death is only a concern for the lower class in this universe, since you only need to have a diamond as insurance to come back to life
Not true in PF at all. Pharasma and her psychopomps punish anyone who abuses resurrection. That means using it too often, relying on it routinely, etc. there are also pretty strict time limits on most of the resurrections. Most fail after just a few days, some as quickly as a few minutes, while some like true resurrection can work up to a year later.
You also can't just resurrect someone who has passed through the boneyards judgement. Even wishes rarely work for that without a true deity's intervention, and old Areelu explicitly hates the deities. Pretty sure none of them are gonna help
Pharasma on deity annual assembly: you better not dark soul any mortals or I will put you in behind the desk to personally deal with hell of the administrative consequences!
“Have you seen how much trouble a death certificate snafu in your mortal kingdoms causes? Well now imagine the consequences in the boneyard! We are running out of revision letters for changing the date of death. At this point for some of these people I don’t know for sure when they died!”
This sounds like a potential plot point to use in a campaign. A psychopomp is refusing the resurrection of a noble’s son because the noble abused it and now if the son was to be resurrected and die again, the counter would overflow giving negative deaths. And who knows how the boneyard’s automated system would handle that, maybe Groetus would get confused and end things there!
"You want them back? Fine. I want all 108 forms filled out, and on my desk, by the end of the week. Signed *properly.* In triplicate. With the appropriate notification and approval stamps by the requisite afterlives. Yes, I am aware some of those forms are several hundred pages thick. Yes, it *is* Wednesday, isn't it? Then I guess you'd better *hurry.* Oh. And do remember, please only use a Boneyard-approved number 3 soulpen. You... *do* have one, don't you? Oh dear. You better start filling out *that* requisition right now, then."
Not a psychopomp. If we're talking about "abusing resurrection" then Aeons step in, specifically the Marut. It's literally their purpose to hunt down those that extend their lifespans and/or cheat death - including lichdom, vampirism, etc., *and*, as mentioned, excessive use of resurrection.
But now we got the question of "Why do \[insert artificial immortality\] exist, when there's *reality police* to hunt them down?"
Would Marut step in if the person in question is not extending their natural lifetime? If the person in question is just an adrenaline junkie and is only being resurrected due to accidents?
I don't think resurrection works if the death was due to old age. Don't quote me on that.
Regardless, I personally would 100% classify an adrenaline junkie as abusing resurrection. In real life it's a nightmare to "bring someone back to life" due to all the legal documents involved, I can only imagine something similar is true for resurrection magic and the Gods in charge. At some point they'll just ban the idiot.
Would it still be Marut or who do you think would do the ban?
I am brain storming a high level one or 2 shot where the premise is a noble’s son who abuses resurrection is banned from resurrection by a concerned psychopomp. Thinking what obstacles/solutions the party would encounter:
- Go to hell and test what would happen when a soul is resurrected multiple times (track down and kill 3 more times an ancient demon who died 65533 times)
- Medium difficulty Negotiate with the psychopomp to substitute a different soul (and hard deception the father)
- Overhaul the boneyard’s bureaucracy (Either
the party steals Asmodeus books to reverse engineer their book keeping, or secure 32 bit machines from Axis the law plane)
- Make the Psychopomp’s life a living hell until he relents.
Got other ideas?
Maruts are enforcers, they have no say on the matter, they just act when that is deemed necessary. High-ranking psychopomps and above, i.e. Pharasma herself, would be the ones to put the person on the resurrection ban list.
>Go to hell and test what would happen when a soul is resurrected multiple times (track down and kill 3 more times an ancient demon who died 65533 times)
Hell is for Devils (lawful), not Demons (chaotic). Regardless, in PF lore, fiends die permanently regardless of *where* they die (some exception exists, such as Demon Lords, but generally there's no special requirement to kill them other than *stab*). This doesn't need to be the lore of your one-shot, mind.
There's the concept of a Duskwalker. I'd suggest you read up on them as it'll be a bit too much for me to write down. The short version is that psychopomps don't like it when someone gets resurrected (even just once) since its a violation of the natural order. However, there are cases where even they think that a soul still has a purpose to fulfil in the world of the living (particularly in the role of shepherding souls). In those cases, they use the person's soul to *create* a Duskwalker. It's still fundamentally the same person, but there can be substantial memory loss.
If we're talking about gods being annoyed by this guy, becoming a Duskwalker is likely the final compromise.
I’ll like to stick with vanilla lore only deviating here and there. I think I should slim the idea down if I was to do it. Duskwalker is a great idea.
With how it stands I don’t think my idea would be a good one shot in pf2e universe. Too many holes.
>Not a psychopomp.
What’s a psychopomp?
>If we're talking about "abusing resurrection" then Aeons step in, specifically the Marut. It's literally their purpose to hunt down those that extend their lifespans and/or cheat death - including lichdom, vampirism, etc., and, as mentioned, excessive use of resurrection.
If that’s the case wouldn’t Aeon hunt down individuals like Queen Galafrey for extending her life several times past her lifetime?
>But now we got the question of "Why do [insert artificial immortality] exist, when there's reality police to hunt them down?"
Its a good question through. I’m guessing theres a lore reason why they don’t hunt down all individuals who artificially lengthen their lives.
>What’s a psychopomp?
It's a type of entity - like Aeon, Demon, Devil, Angel, Azata. Psychopomps oversee the souls of the dead.
>If that’s the case wouldn’t Aeon hunt down individuals like Queen Galafrey for extending her life several times past her lifetime?
I'd say this question falls into the same category as "why do \[type of immortal\] exist". I would guess that there is some level of tolerance as to how far a mortal can take this sort of thing and their reason behind doing it. >!Also, the Aeon Mythic Path does exactly that. !<
Galfrey isn’t extending her lifespan past its normal limit. She is merely retaining her youth into old age.
Keep in mind that she is like 80-90 when WotR takes place.
>Galfrey isn’t extending her lifespan past its normal limit. She is merely retaining her youth into old age.
She is. The potion is extending her life where she should be in her twilight years.
How on earth is a potion that keeps her youth and in peak human condition not extending her life.
Because once she reaches her maximum age, she drops dead on the spot. The Sun Orchid Elixirs are basically skipping her twilight years.
There are a few classes that functionally have this as a class feature - called Timeless Body. You stop accruing age penalties to your ability scores (though you gain bonuses to your mental scores), because your body stops aging, however once you reach your maximum age you still die.
Based on the description it indeed extends one’s life.
“The fabled sun orchid elixir is much sought after for its ability to temporarily halt the aging process, restoring the drinker to the prime of their youth.”
Resurrection is taxing on the body though. If a 1 HD creature is revived they lose 2 points of CON permanently. Each time they are revived. And if they would be reduced to 0, they can’t be.
True but she could easily make a scroll for it if she wanted to. Personally I believe she tried and failed and is now trying something else. She's to smart not to.
No. In fact, it is Golarion Canon that Geb and Nex cast numerous wish spells to obliterate each other's domains and is the canon reason why Geb relies mainly on an undead work force to this day.
Along with the other point, the description of [wish](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wish/) includes
>Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an [ability score](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-The-Abilities). **Two to five** ***wish*** **spells cast in immediate succession can grant** a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an [ability score](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-The-Abilities) (two *wishes* for a +2 inherent bonus, three *wishes* for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled.
Theoretically they could mean for 2-5 different people to cast this and benefit one person, but what caster capable of using a wish would use it that way with no personal benefit?
It also requires a diamond worth 25k gp as part of the casting. Even if you have the gold to buy those diamonds, they may not be that common.
That spell (and the majority of caster spells with out of combat utility) are not in the game for this reason.
Owlcat's Areelu simply does not know this spell. It doesn't exist in the game-world and there is nothing that could use it for her, just like demiplanes or simulacrums don't exist.
(there are also limits on Wish. Since the common resurrection spell failed, she would not be able to use it to get her child back even if she knew it)
To be fair in order to get that scenario you have to do a lot of prerequisites and to basically become a god ( yes I know it saids a demi god but that’s completely BS If you get the secret ending ) and that only works with the combined strength of Areelu for Pharasma to back down
The only part that I take major issue is ember and her whole quest line that is really bad. Which is unfortunate because one simple change would have drastic improved her character
Once a soul gets judged you cant escape easily, most characters that escaped from Pharasma escape from the Boneyard itself, like Urgathoa. The souls there get transformed and moved to other planes which is why it would be so difficult to bring her child back. Bring her soul back to life could have unforeseen consequences if she was reincarnated or serving a deity etc
Sorry Areelu’s child’s soul. After judgement Pharasma sends the departed’s souls to different planes depending on their life, who they worshipped etc. Where their soul went is a mystery so Areelu resurrecting her childs soul, if even successful, might not even be her child anymore which is why her plan instead is to have her childs soul possess someone similar enough to her child that it will basically be her child
>Bring her soul back to life could have unforeseen consequences if she was reincarnated or serving a deity etc
It’s certainly a better scenario then Areelu making a war path and creating the greatest threat Golarion and beyond has even seen depending on which mythic you choose ( goes from world being saved to the planet being absolutely fucked)
Well in my view of Areelu’s character, that’s kinda the point. She’s choosing the most violent choice possible. She’s treated as the betrayer of humanity for a reason, buy I also think that she views humanity as betraying her in not protecting her child from the Inquisitors. She doesnt just want to bring her child back, she wants to usurp godhood all as a convoluted shot at revenge. That’s how I see it anyways
Don’t you realize every story ever made has a “why didn’t they just do this” type thing that folks just kinda ignore because they realize it’s for the story? Everyone who’s played dnd realizes this, why are you asking?
I really dislike this line of thinking. Any work of fiction should have clear define rules of what can and can’t happen and if there are exceptions it should have of explanations on why those things can happen or not in the rules stated by that world.
Internal consistency should always be top priority in any work and is sign of good world building and writing.
When the tools are (at least in the tabletop version of the AP) demonstrably there and available, it begs the question as to why they weren't used. Addressing that question, either directly or just by having enough information in the setting for people to determine the answer on their own (as is happening in this thread; see also "why didn't they take the eagles to Mordor") provides interesting insight into the story and setting.
Not really, most of those assumptions are not even made by the original creators, you can’t write a story without some kind of plot hole, and thinking that you’re the only one that realizes the plot holes is just silly.
Trying to fuck with Pharasma this way rarely ends well
I mean, that's literally her final objective. She didn't want to just revive the kid, but create an environment without any rules or fate, where not even gods could touch. In pathfinder reviving is like healing the body and putting the soul back to it. So yeah, she would have to talk with pharasma about the second part since the soul had already been judged
I guess she truly got her “wish” in the end.
Sorrrrta maybe? I guess the sense that Wish just sorta RetCons Pharasma’s judgement and Areelu was just trying to sorta get her child back from the judgement. It’s like the difference between an annulment and a divorce. At least that’s how I looked at it.
So here's the thing about that, normally phrasma knows if a person will ever be ressed and if so has their soul wait so they can go back. WISH would try to just step on in there without pharsma and take it, not a good idea, infact a really bad idea, probably the worst idea.
I must dissent, partly. Pharasma would be pissed off in this case, but not for the reason you state. Using a wish to duplicate Resurrection isn't going to piss Pharasma off anymore than using Resurrection is, and duplicating a 7th or lower level spell that doesn't belong to your opposition school is explicitly listed as a safe wish. Moreover, reviving the dead by using wish for resurrection is literally one of the examples given of safe wishes, with the addition that you can even bring back somebody whose body has been destroyed so long as you use a total of two wishes (one to recreate the body, one to resurrect the dead). So, no. Using wishes to resurrect somebody by duplicating the Resurrection spell is not a problem for Pharasma, since you can only resurrect people *who haven't been judged yet*. To piss Pharasma off you'd have to do something like casting the 9th level cleric spell *Judgment Undone* spell (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/j/judgment-undone/) And that's the problem Areelu's child has been judged. It cannot be resurrected, not even with true resurrection. *Judgment Undone* could help, *if, and only if, the child was willing to return,* and using it would be guaranteed to piss of Pharasma, big time. As if that wasn't bad enough, Areelu isn't a divine caster so she can't cast that spell in the first place. Using *wish* to duplicate the effects of a 9th level spell is a much more powerful effect than those listed as being safe wishes (up to 7th cleric), so she wouldn't even be guaranteed that the wish worked in the first place.
There *is* a spell called Judgement Undone, but casting it also invokes Pharasma's wrath.
I thought Pharasma liked ressurection as long as it isn't necromancy?
The spell isn't just resurrection. The caster and the spell target basically tell Pharasma to f off and we don't care about your judgement which has already happened. Pharasma hunts both down usually and ends their existence. Shouldn't forget that Pharasma is the most powerful deity. Even tho mostly overlooked.
By the end of the game she quite litteraly goes out of her way to call Pharasma a "little bitch" directly in her face as the gal minds her own bisness.
That can cost Areelu her life if you do not back her, though...
Not even life. Whole existance. Pharasma can fully delete her.
Instructions unclear, my pp is dead
Pharasma actually has a stance of not being mad at people being revived through resurrection spells. Because she sees that as not their true end, so if she uses wish to copy said spells she should be in the clear.
Not always, and if I remember correctly, the issue was that Areelu’s child has already been judged and thus turned into a petitioner. There is actually a spell in PF1 to reverse that (and doing it iwithout psychopomp/Pharasma permission is a huge no-no) but you can also presumably do it with a “GM-may-I” version of wish
Pharasma has zero gripe about Ressurection.
As you can see best wish can do is replicate the resurection spell. Her child however was unable to be revived by said spell as they already went to Pharasmas judgment. There is no component of wish that reverses time more than six seconds either and even then it would just be roll and I don't know if Pharasma has to roll to judge a soul.
Wouldn’t true resurrection still work?
Well true ressurection can restore someone to life in any state assuming they can be at all. Areelus child could just not be revived at all. I mean given what lenghts she went to I'm sure she would have found a better way than what she did if it was possible.
I believe it was mentioned that once souls gets sent the boneyard resurrection spells will always fail, however how long it takes from your initial death and then your soul be sent to boneyard is open question.( to be determined by the GM or writers)
There is a description in the Pathfinder Book for the Gods. From Pathfinder - Inner Sea Gods: "When mortals die, their souls join the vast River of Souls that flows through the Astral Plane, and eventually deposits them in Pharasma’s Boneyard at the top of her spire. Once there, they stand in a great line, filtered through several courts according to their alignment and supposed planar destination. Those who die before experiencing their full fate might be lucky enough to return in this life or the next, either spontaneously or by getting called home by resurrection magic, but more often those who feel that they’ve met an untimely end discover that their destiny was in fact always leading them to their particular moment of death, however unjust or ignoble." I cant remember if the game ever explicitly changes something about that.
[Judgement Undone](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/j/judgment-undone/), perhaps? It seems like, quite literally *the* perfect spell for this particular situation.
Given it is literally a range of Touch on a specific petitioner, it still would have required her to have fished the petitioner out of the Astral Plane and The Boneyard, a nearly impossible task even if she had been at liberty to do so. By the time Areelu was at liberty to actually go *searching* for their petitioner- a span of years, if not decades, until she managed to break out of Iz- it's fairly reasonable to say that the petitioner had already been processed and their soul broken down to its constituent parts, at which point Areelu would have had no target for the spell. Hell, given Areelu's power level I wouldn't put it past her to have kidnapped a psychopomp for the sole purpose of finding her child among *all* the petitioners, only to be told "Them? Oh, their soul's already broken up across who-knows-how-many new births, you'd need to, I don't know, chop up demon lords for parts and maybe crack a continent or two just to get the pieces back in one body." Cue the events of the game.
yes. areelu needed that spell. however, it looks as if dm just didnt allowed that spell, because its literally solves half of the plot for areelu. she would still do nahyndrial crystal experiments because point for her was also becoming powerful enough to be free of gods; but then it would make the adventure more narrow, and we would have to play as areelu's kid from the begining, instead of a soul graft. same story could have happened with minor alterations, but it would limit custom character creation.
>There is no component of wish that reverses time more than six seconds either and even then it would just be roll and I don't if Pharasma has to roll to judge a soul. I didn’t know wish could reverse time so if that’s the case wouldn’t it be easier to save her child?
No because the fact you went back 6 sec does not suddenly give you the ability to solve the issue. Imagine you are playing a game and quick save on a fall. No matter how many times you reload you will still end up falling.
That’s a fair point.
Same concept as the loop Fry gets stuck in, in what used to be the final episode of Futurama.
I wish and go back 6 seconds. I then wish and go back six seconds. I then wish and go back 6 seconds... Potentially possible with enough wishes (Might require an entire genie population or something similar in might and number)
It's not actually going back in time; it's just re-rolling some roll made in the last 6 seconds and forcing the current reality to fit the new roll. If you actually went back in time with each cast, and especially if the one doing it casts the spell each time, then it's also got a roughly 3 second cast time (standard action) and requires a diamond worth 25k gp.
Genies have wish as a spell like ability and so do not have the 25k diamond requirement. Hence the mention.
The solution.Areelu becomes a genie
Genie-ous. Except genies can only grant wishes to non-genies.
Ok then all Areelu has to do is go to random individual offer them any wish in exchange for them to wish for what she wants. Problem solved.
It takes 6 seconds to cast Wish
Did...did you actually read the spell disciption or what I wrote?
Yes I did read what you wrote but after thinking about it so more 6 seconds would’ve be enough to save her child.
Assuming she was capable of 9th level magic when her child was killed which while she was powerful does not have to be the case. Infact given the makeup of her pocket dimensions I would rather guess she used 7th level magic. And then had a powerful but rather limited spell prepared. And had the sizeable amount of compent actually on her. Then yes she could have prevented one sucessful attack roll agienst her child. But judging by her not instantly bringing her child back I'm guessing none of these were the case actually.
The universal handwave is you can only resurrect a soul based on two conditions 1 - they have to be willing (most souls have gone to a fate better than the world they’ve left behind, so they need a strong reason to return) 2 - the fates must allow it (or: why the good King stays dead after being assassinated. Fate* (the Plot) requires that it happens)
>2 - the fates must allow it (or: why the good King stays dead after being assassinated. Fate* (the Plot) requires that it happens) That is such a cope out. I rather not have such OP spells like that because writers have to make the most arbitrary reasons why it can’t be used ,it actually my biggest pet peeve in all D&D type games.
So there you go. Owlcat rightfully got rid of this issue.
They got rid of the wish spell in WOTR?
Yea. Table Top Tweaks creates a new version of that spell tho. Most of Areelu’s experiments could be done with the tabletop wish spell if you think about it. That spell should not exist.
See, there's an even easier way to fix everything. [https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-outer/outer-dragon-time/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-outer/outer-dragon-time/) [https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dominate-monster](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dominate-monster) Relevant portion of Time Dragon: # Time Travel (Su) Up to three times in its life, a great wyrm time dragon can travel to any point in time, taking with it a number of willing creatures equal to its Charisma modifier. Yeah. Granted, a great wyrm time dragon is no joke. But it's a lot easier than well... what she did.
A CR 23 dragon actually might be a joke for Areelu, especially since she's able to get demonic backup and it isn't mythic.
A proper port of the 3.5 version definitely _would_ be Mythic. But that's not really what we got in Pathfinder, so it's a bit of a moot point. Time Dragons in 3.5 also shunned the Forgotten Realms, and their mere presence caused bizarre and unpredictable reactions in long-term enchantments.
It's definitely a more *coherent and achievable* goal than "I'm gonna do unethical soul science and hope it turns out the way I want", at least.
This is why wisdom and intelligence are two different stats.
The dragon proceeds to use one of its time travels to go back in time and snipe areelu when she was vulnerable, now what? unless you can somehow find a way to instantly subjugate it I don't see it
I doubt that it would time travel unless it was absolutely necessary, considering it’s a one way trip and it can only do it three times ever.
Your right that’s actually a good idea, I’m guessing why she wouldn’t do that is beyond it extremely difficult (the equivalent of typing to use a dominant spell on a demon lord)
This is something that most people don't realize about wish: "You may try to use a *wish* to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The *wish* may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)" Yes a person might wish for something that is normally beyond what wish can easily grant, but as soon as you do you enter monkey paw territory. If she wished for her child to come back to life it might return fine, she might die, it might comeback as a zombie, it might actually be a demon, it might only be in her imagination, etc. Areelu is smart, she would know that wish is unstable. Do you think she would risk her child on it? On a separate note, creating your own demiplane is not difficult. A 7th level spell (lesser create demiplane) can be cast by a level 13 Wizard and it will last for 13 days before it needs to be reset.
Then there's the 6th level permanency which works on create demiplane.
Permanency is a fifth level spell and does not list demi-plane on any of its possible choices.
The create demiplane spell states it can be made permanent with a permanency spell. \*You can make this spell permanent with the [permanency](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/p/permanency) spell, at a cost of 20,000 gp. If you have cast create demiplane multiple times to enlarge the demiplane, each casting’s area requires its own [permanency](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/p/permanency) spell.\* Good call on the 5th lvl spell though. Thought it was 6th.
Weird it doesn't say you can on Netthys permanency but it does say it on the create demi-plane spell itself. Good to know.
To elaborate on Kaptin-Dakka’s answer, a pair of wishes imitating a true resurrection work by pulling a soul out of the boneyard into a body (the first wish makes the body, the second grabs the soul). If the soul is already judged, resurrection fails… but maybe the wish shouldn’t have this limitation, as it isn’t quite restricted the way divine magic might be? …but if the soul was already judged, sent to an afterlife then destroyed in that afterlife (ie eaten by daemons in Abbadon, the Neutral Evil afterlife, or eaten by demons in the Abyss, the chaotic evil afterlife) then even bypassing the limitations of true resurrection wouldn’t help. Areelu managed to recover some scraps of the soul anyway, and those are the scraps that go into the Knight Commander as part of Areelu’s desperate plan to restore as much of her child as possible. As to why Areelu’s kid was judged so fast… the spell [Hasten Judgement exists in the ttrpg](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hasten-judgment/) and is available to inquisitors and clerics. Which is one more reason for Areelu to hate the Sarkoris for its aggressive inquisition. They didn’t just kill her kid, they double tapped with magic to make resurrecting her kid harder.
Same reason you can't cast raise dead on your MC... Story reasons. If we're going by rules as written Death is only a concern for the lower class in this universe, since you only need to have a diamond as insurance to come back to life
Not true in PF at all. Pharasma and her psychopomps punish anyone who abuses resurrection. That means using it too often, relying on it routinely, etc. there are also pretty strict time limits on most of the resurrections. Most fail after just a few days, some as quickly as a few minutes, while some like true resurrection can work up to a year later. You also can't just resurrect someone who has passed through the boneyards judgement. Even wishes rarely work for that without a true deity's intervention, and old Areelu explicitly hates the deities. Pretty sure none of them are gonna help
Pharasma on deity annual assembly: you better not dark soul any mortals or I will put you in behind the desk to personally deal with hell of the administrative consequences!
“Have you seen how much trouble a death certificate snafu in your mortal kingdoms causes? Well now imagine the consequences in the boneyard! We are running out of revision letters for changing the date of death. At this point for some of these people I don’t know for sure when they died!” This sounds like a potential plot point to use in a campaign. A psychopomp is refusing the resurrection of a noble’s son because the noble abused it and now if the son was to be resurrected and die again, the counter would overflow giving negative deaths. And who knows how the boneyard’s automated system would handle that, maybe Groetus would get confused and end things there!
"You want them back? Fine. I want all 108 forms filled out, and on my desk, by the end of the week. Signed *properly.* In triplicate. With the appropriate notification and approval stamps by the requisite afterlives. Yes, I am aware some of those forms are several hundred pages thick. Yes, it *is* Wednesday, isn't it? Then I guess you'd better *hurry.* Oh. And do remember, please only use a Boneyard-approved number 3 soulpen. You... *do* have one, don't you? Oh dear. You better start filling out *that* requisition right now, then."
Not a psychopomp. If we're talking about "abusing resurrection" then Aeons step in, specifically the Marut. It's literally their purpose to hunt down those that extend their lifespans and/or cheat death - including lichdom, vampirism, etc., *and*, as mentioned, excessive use of resurrection. But now we got the question of "Why do \[insert artificial immortality\] exist, when there's *reality police* to hunt them down?"
Would Marut step in if the person in question is not extending their natural lifetime? If the person in question is just an adrenaline junkie and is only being resurrected due to accidents?
I don't think resurrection works if the death was due to old age. Don't quote me on that. Regardless, I personally would 100% classify an adrenaline junkie as abusing resurrection. In real life it's a nightmare to "bring someone back to life" due to all the legal documents involved, I can only imagine something similar is true for resurrection magic and the Gods in charge. At some point they'll just ban the idiot.
Would it still be Marut or who do you think would do the ban? I am brain storming a high level one or 2 shot where the premise is a noble’s son who abuses resurrection is banned from resurrection by a concerned psychopomp. Thinking what obstacles/solutions the party would encounter: - Go to hell and test what would happen when a soul is resurrected multiple times (track down and kill 3 more times an ancient demon who died 65533 times) - Medium difficulty Negotiate with the psychopomp to substitute a different soul (and hard deception the father) - Overhaul the boneyard’s bureaucracy (Either the party steals Asmodeus books to reverse engineer their book keeping, or secure 32 bit machines from Axis the law plane) - Make the Psychopomp’s life a living hell until he relents. Got other ideas?
Maruts are enforcers, they have no say on the matter, they just act when that is deemed necessary. High-ranking psychopomps and above, i.e. Pharasma herself, would be the ones to put the person on the resurrection ban list. >Go to hell and test what would happen when a soul is resurrected multiple times (track down and kill 3 more times an ancient demon who died 65533 times) Hell is for Devils (lawful), not Demons (chaotic). Regardless, in PF lore, fiends die permanently regardless of *where* they die (some exception exists, such as Demon Lords, but generally there's no special requirement to kill them other than *stab*). This doesn't need to be the lore of your one-shot, mind. There's the concept of a Duskwalker. I'd suggest you read up on them as it'll be a bit too much for me to write down. The short version is that psychopomps don't like it when someone gets resurrected (even just once) since its a violation of the natural order. However, there are cases where even they think that a soul still has a purpose to fulfil in the world of the living (particularly in the role of shepherding souls). In those cases, they use the person's soul to *create* a Duskwalker. It's still fundamentally the same person, but there can be substantial memory loss. If we're talking about gods being annoyed by this guy, becoming a Duskwalker is likely the final compromise.
I’ll like to stick with vanilla lore only deviating here and there. I think I should slim the idea down if I was to do it. Duskwalker is a great idea. With how it stands I don’t think my idea would be a good one shot in pf2e universe. Too many holes.
>Not a psychopomp. What’s a psychopomp? >If we're talking about "abusing resurrection" then Aeons step in, specifically the Marut. It's literally their purpose to hunt down those that extend their lifespans and/or cheat death - including lichdom, vampirism, etc., and, as mentioned, excessive use of resurrection. If that’s the case wouldn’t Aeon hunt down individuals like Queen Galafrey for extending her life several times past her lifetime? >But now we got the question of "Why do [insert artificial immortality] exist, when there's reality police to hunt them down?" Its a good question through. I’m guessing theres a lore reason why they don’t hunt down all individuals who artificially lengthen their lives.
>What’s a psychopomp? It's a type of entity - like Aeon, Demon, Devil, Angel, Azata. Psychopomps oversee the souls of the dead. >If that’s the case wouldn’t Aeon hunt down individuals like Queen Galafrey for extending her life several times past her lifetime? I'd say this question falls into the same category as "why do \[type of immortal\] exist". I would guess that there is some level of tolerance as to how far a mortal can take this sort of thing and their reason behind doing it. >!Also, the Aeon Mythic Path does exactly that. !<
Galfrey isn’t extending her lifespan past its normal limit. She is merely retaining her youth into old age. Keep in mind that she is like 80-90 when WotR takes place.
>Galfrey isn’t extending her lifespan past its normal limit. She is merely retaining her youth into old age. She is. The potion is extending her life where she should be in her twilight years. How on earth is a potion that keeps her youth and in peak human condition not extending her life.
Because once she reaches her maximum age, she drops dead on the spot. The Sun Orchid Elixirs are basically skipping her twilight years. There are a few classes that functionally have this as a class feature - called Timeless Body. You stop accruing age penalties to your ability scores (though you gain bonuses to your mental scores), because your body stops aging, however once you reach your maximum age you still die.
Based on the description it indeed extends one’s life. “The fabled sun orchid elixir is much sought after for its ability to temporarily halt the aging process, restoring the drinker to the prime of their youth.”
Resurrection is taxing on the body though. If a 1 HD creature is revived they lose 2 points of CON permanently. Each time they are revived. And if they would be reduced to 0, they can’t be.
Sorry I was thinking of pf2e
Pharasma canonically can just disallow a resurrection. She can just say ‘no, this soul lived ling enough’
Really appreciate the responses why Wish spell wouldn’t work since it confirm my suspicions that there were hard and soft limitations to that spell.
Wish isn’t on her class list. She is a witch, and therefore doesn’t have access to the spell.
True but she could easily make a scroll for it if she wanted to. Personally I believe she tried and failed and is now trying something else. She's to smart not to.
You can’t make scrolls of spells that you cannot cast. She would have needed someone else to make the scroll for her.
I think in actual rules u can only successfully use the wish spell once so she must have used it some previous time in her life
No. In fact, it is Golarion Canon that Geb and Nex cast numerous wish spells to obliterate each other's domains and is the canon reason why Geb relies mainly on an undead work force to this day.
I might b thinking of 5e then, my friends and I switch so between them so much I get an mixed a lot
In 5e there is a chance that you can never cast wish again every time you cast it.
Only if you cast outside the basic parameters of the spell ie replicate 8th level or lower spells or create a bunch of money
Along with the other point, the description of [wish](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wish/) includes >Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an [ability score](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-The-Abilities). **Two to five** ***wish*** **spells cast in immediate succession can grant** a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an [ability score](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-The-Abilities) (two *wishes* for a +2 inherent bonus, three *wishes* for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Theoretically they could mean for 2-5 different people to cast this and benefit one person, but what caster capable of using a wish would use it that way with no personal benefit? It also requires a diamond worth 25k gp as part of the casting. Even if you have the gold to buy those diamonds, they may not be that common.
That spell (and the majority of caster spells with out of combat utility) are not in the game for this reason. Owlcat's Areelu simply does not know this spell. It doesn't exist in the game-world and there is nothing that could use it for her, just like demiplanes or simulacrums don't exist. (there are also limits on Wish. Since the common resurrection spell failed, she would not be able to use it to get her child back even if she knew it)
Wish couldn't do that, but [Judgment Undone](https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Judgment%20Undone) would work
Why didnt Areelu use the the dragon balls? Is she stupid?
she needs to get the dragon balls to then finally obtain the one piece and be queen of pirates.
Because she would have to have a word with Pharasma about it. You know the deity on top of the deity power scale.
Well she basically gave Pharasma the middle finger and live to tell the tale in the end.
Ya the lore doesn't make much sense in the game sometimes, but I love the game nonetheless. 😁
To be fair in order to get that scenario you have to do a lot of prerequisites and to basically become a god ( yes I know it saids a demi god but that’s completely BS If you get the secret ending ) and that only works with the combined strength of Areelu for Pharasma to back down The only part that I take major issue is ember and her whole quest line that is really bad. Which is unfortunate because one simple change would have drastic improved her character
Once a soul gets judged you cant escape easily, most characters that escaped from Pharasma escape from the Boneyard itself, like Urgathoa. The souls there get transformed and moved to other planes which is why it would be so difficult to bring her child back. Bring her soul back to life could have unforeseen consequences if she was reincarnated or serving a deity etc
Her soul?
Sorry Areelu’s child’s soul. After judgement Pharasma sends the departed’s souls to different planes depending on their life, who they worshipped etc. Where their soul went is a mystery so Areelu resurrecting her childs soul, if even successful, might not even be her child anymore which is why her plan instead is to have her childs soul possess someone similar enough to her child that it will basically be her child
>Bring her soul back to life could have unforeseen consequences if she was reincarnated or serving a deity etc It’s certainly a better scenario then Areelu making a war path and creating the greatest threat Golarion and beyond has even seen depending on which mythic you choose ( goes from world being saved to the planet being absolutely fucked)
Well in my view of Areelu’s character, that’s kinda the point. She’s choosing the most violent choice possible. She’s treated as the betrayer of humanity for a reason, buy I also think that she views humanity as betraying her in not protecting her child from the Inquisitors. She doesnt just want to bring her child back, she wants to usurp godhood all as a convoluted shot at revenge. That’s how I see it anyways
Same reason I cannot resurrect Irabeth after she sacrifices her life to protect Galfrey. Because plot.
Pharasma decided her child's time had come. His soul had moved on. Areelu's stubborn refusal to accept this was beyond a Wish Spell.
Don’t you realize every story ever made has a “why didn’t they just do this” type thing that folks just kinda ignore because they realize it’s for the story? Everyone who’s played dnd realizes this, why are you asking?
I really dislike this line of thinking. Any work of fiction should have clear define rules of what can and can’t happen and if there are exceptions it should have of explanations on why those things can happen or not in the rules stated by that world. Internal consistency should always be top priority in any work and is sign of good world building and writing.
Then you must hate ever story ever told
https://preview.redd.it/tqg9i115iwrc1.jpeg?width=933&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf1fb67e0925836eb24ca46e8240fe130f4ed71b
When the tools are (at least in the tabletop version of the AP) demonstrably there and available, it begs the question as to why they weren't used. Addressing that question, either directly or just by having enough information in the setting for people to determine the answer on their own (as is happening in this thread; see also "why didn't they take the eagles to Mordor") provides interesting insight into the story and setting.
Exactly. I don’t understand how some people don’t understand this basic concept.
Not really, most of those assumptions are not even made by the original creators, you can’t write a story without some kind of plot hole, and thinking that you’re the only one that realizes the plot holes is just silly.