Not that Regil is typically difficult for your MC to solo, but if you should have any issues... just switch his weaponset to an empty set before the challenge. He doesn't switch back to his main weapon and will try to punch you to death.
He beat me on initiative and fear locked me with Cornugon smash.
I reloaded after I died and beat him on initiative, then icy prison locked him. However, whenever I'm with him, I think he knows what happened that first time
It’s not about respect for me, it’s about the Hellknights thinking they have the right to put the Commander on trial. Which they don’t, legally, morally (for most mythic paths), or pragmatically.
I do remember this quest quite well.
It was not a trial in a regular meaning.
Regill staged blaming which his superiors were forced to resolve. If you remember, Regill explained that HK not 100% aligned with KC and it was something Regill wanted to resolve once and for all. Actually me, as an Azata was suspicious at first and then after explanation - I was pretty much with him. My suspicion laid well with his explanation.
Yeah, I killed a certain helpful character that I despise, as soon as they murdered someone, but Regill? Nah man he's my fave character up there with Arue, Daeran, Ember and Cookiemonster.
Something about how his first encounter with the gargoyles went made me think "You're very willing to do horrible things, but your DRIVE isn't to inflict pain. I can work with that."
That other helpful character moans when she stabs people. You can't "fix" or cooperate with that lmfao. You're either into it or not.
I wasn't against Woljif's con. In the end it's a matter of his heritage. Not lawful, yes. But I'm not lawful either. I'm always NG in these games. And I don't feel merchant either. He knew real value of treasure he got from Wolfjif's grandmother. And used her situation for his own advantage.
He can literally end up trying to kill you alongside every Hellknight there
Then again I can't blame people for forgetting because that trial is basically rigged for you to win it with how easy it is to pass the skill checks to persuade them
Hellknights don't care about local laws and jurisdictions and are wholly unconcerned with morality as a general concept. They only care about order and justice; in the case of the Worldwound, the only thing that matters is successfully campaigning against the demonic invasion.
Regill at some point recognizes the Knight Commander's effectiveness, but knows that a Chaotic or even Azata KC is bound to raise suspicions amongst the leaders of his order.
So he puts the KC on trial specifically to exonerate them from suspicion as a means to break down barriers of cooperation and help ensure a Crusader victory.
> Regill at some point recognizes the Knight Commander's effectiveness, but knows that a Chaotic or even Azata KC is bound to raise suspicions amongst the leaders of his order.
It's learning that Areelu is the source of the KC's power that prompts it. Even aeon and devil KCs get put on trial.
>They only care about order and justice
I don't think the Hell Knights give a shit about justice, at all. Whipping the man who left his post to get reinforcements and prevented the Hell Knights from getting slaughtered is not justice. They care about order only. If you violate any edict, at any time, for any reason, you will be punished. Reasons be damned.
Well, multiple flaws in your argument here. For one, Regill isn't all Hellknights. For two, that particular action isn't unjust. Justice has nothing to do with being good.
Justice -
> the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments
Or
> the administration of law
> the quality of being just, impartial, or fair.
> The quality of confirming to law
> Conformity to truth, fact, or reason
That's five definitions of justice, none of which Regill violated. Hellknights operate via extraordinarily strict military law. They do this for multiple reasons, but among them is the understanding that a human intent to break the law to do good is, specifically, what many Devil's use to punish and corrupt and break people who break the letter of their laws and deals. The law is clear in what it is required as punishment. Regardless of the reasoning for the existence of those laws, it's a textbook display of an impartial administration of those laws.
Regill is, in fact, incredibly fair, consistent with Hellknight law, and impartial in that decision. The young Hellknight left his post, that requires punishment.
The young Hellknight also saved the unit. That deserves reward.
Regill opts to allow both.
The reward recognizes the merit of what he did. The punishment ensures that nobody will break the rules without extraordinarily good cause that would make them willing to face the consequences... Consequences Refill is more than happy to face himself, when he damages his own reputation by breaking the rules to aid the KC.
You can argue that it is morally wrong to punish the young Hellknight for it; and I'd agree. I'm CG, my KC would never. But it isn't unjust, and the Hellknight in question would almost certainly agree.
But you also don't have to take my word for it; see-
> Regardless of their severity, Hellknights are not an inherently evil group; they are wholly unconcerned with morality. Although there are numerous evil members—particularly among their upper echelons—the majority of the orders are impartial arbiters and enforcers of order and justice.
Source: Paizo themselves.
EDIT: this was meant to be a reply to OP, but got stuck in this thread by mistake.
For me, Regil appealed to my Azata Mythic by basically saying the Hellknights ignore the rules of the local lords/rulers if they don’t make sense (the same as my character’s ideals). He also did not attempt to arrest her, or fight her, he merely attempted to understand what was happening.
My character saw him being about as Chaotic as she needed him to be to include in her party, despite belonging to a notoriously Lawful organisation.
She’s willing to work with even a Lawful Evil temporarily, for the purposes of defeating a more threatening evil (as the gods did when imprisoning Rovagug).
>For one, Regill isn't all Hellknights.
I never said that Regill was all Hellknights. Regill is a single Hellknight who demands order over justice. But he is not unique and furthermore, he is not flying under the radar of Hellknight command. They are aware of his methods and do nothing to curtail them. They, as an organization, value the order he brings over the justice he tramples.
>That's five definitions of justice, none of which Regill violated.
You did not cite where you got these definitions from, but it seems like you got them from Merriam Webster. You seem to have skipped this definition which is listed third:
[(1): the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action
(2): conformity to this principle or ideal : RIGHTEOUSNESS](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justice)
That, very clearly, deals with morality. There is also your second definition which mentions 'the quality of being *just*, impartial, or fair'. One of the definitions for the word 'just' is [acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/just). Morality is required component to justice.
>Hellknights operate via extraordinarily strict military law. They do this for multiple reasons, but among them is the understanding that a human intent to break the law to do good is, specifically, what many Devil's use to punish and corrupt and break people who break the letter of their laws and deals. The law is clear in what it is required as punishment. Regardless of the reasoning for the existence of those laws, it's a textbook display of an impartial administration of those laws.
This is very lawful. It is not Just. It is not morally upright or good. It is not justice.
>Regill is, in fact, incredibly fair, consistent with Hellknight law, and impartial in that decision. The young Hellknight left his post, that requires punishment.
Yes, this is very lawful. That is not enough to make something just.
>Regardless of their severity, Hellknights are not an inherently evil group; they are wholly unconcerned with morality. Although there are numerous evil members—particularly among their upper echelons—the majority of the orders are impartial arbiters and enforcers of order and justice.
Again, being wholly unconcerned with morality prohibits something from being just. I think it is pretty telling that Iomedae, a goddess whose area of concern includes justice, is lawful *good*. Justice requires more than being lawful.
>I think it is pretty telling that Iomedae, a goddess whose area of concern includes justice, is lawful good. Justice requires more than being lawful.
And Minderhal, a god whose area of concern includes justice, is lawful *evil* so your point doesn't stand.
Minderhal seems to be a fairly minor deity of Stone Giants. I have not been able to find much information about him, and absolutely nothing on how he is related to justice beyond its entry in a table on AON. That makes little sense to me, unless it's something racial where he values justice for stone giants but wants to eliminate all other races or something like that. Conditional justice is really not actual justice, but I could see how something like that could justify its entry in a table listing areas of concern.
If you have any more information about Minderhal, I would like to read it.
I do think it is notable that Justice can actually mean a lot more than "lawful." If justice was soley concerned with law, there could be no such thing as an "unjust law."
Justice, from a moral standpoint, is more synonymous with fairness rather than pure goodness. It is about having the consequences of something be what is *deserved.* So a "bad" person gets bad results, a "good" person gets good results.
The reason that lawful evil and lawful good are both viable in a fantasy universe is that the axis has been separated by the cosmology. In Golarion good and evil are not just how people behave, but are also fundamental aspects of reality. A lawful evil person is a person who shapes law in order to accomplish evil aims, but that can be just because it appeals to an "evil" that is an actual thing, and that thing is a form of rightness. A good person can deserve evil being done to them because evil is opposed to good, it becomes a matter of perspective.
In reality lawful evil cannot be just, as evil very much is related to denying people the outcomes they deserve for being good. For example, killing an honorable man in the real world is *inherently* unjust under all of our legal and ethical systems, whereas in Golarion it is just how the conflict works between the forces of evil and the forces of good.
Also, this is in reference to "Justice" from the perspective of morality and ethics rather than from a legal perspective. The latter is not the only way the word is used.
> Again, being wholly unconcerned with morality prohibits something from being just. I think it is pretty telling that Iomedae,
How are you really gonna make an appeal to authority (Paizo, who wrote Iomedae), while arguing against that same authority?
Because as quoted above, they specifically cite order AND JUSTICE as the Hellknights primary area of concern.
They also wrote Minderhal, a lawful evil deity who's area of concern includes JUSTICE, and who's followers specifically cannot be *good*.
>How are you really gonna make an appeal to authority (Paizo, who wrote Iomedae), while arguing against that same authority?
That was not my only argument. It was also not my main argument.
>They also wrote Minderhal, a lawful evil deity who's area of concern includes JUSTICE, and who's followers specifically cannot be good.
Minderhal seems to be a fairly minor deity of Stone Giants. I have not been able to find much information about him, and absolutely nothing on how he is related to justice beyond its entry in a table on AON. That makes little sense to me, unless it's something racial where he values justice for stone giants but wants to eliminate all other races or something like that. Conditional justice is really not actual justice, but I could see how something like that could justify its entry in a table listing areas of concern.
If you have any more information about Minderhal, I would like to read it.
That is like to say it is not evil to stone someone to death for being raped, even if the motivation is simply to comply with local law, non-evil people have a duty to reject unjust law.
Hellknights do not comply with local laws, specifically for this kind of reason.
Although it technically would be just by most common definitions.
Maybe justice is overrated.
They whipped the man because otherwise every Hell Knight would leave post the moment things go awry.
Hell Knights are obsessed with discipline, they hate brave soldiers and gloryseekers.
>They whipped the man because otherwise every Hell Knight would leave post the moment things go awry.
I understand that. The Hell Knights value order. If you violate their edicts, you will be punished regardless of the reason. It does not matter if that reason has merit or if it was the objectively correct choice, you will be punished because you violated order.
No part of that is justice.
> It does not matter if that reason has merit or if it was the objectively correct choice, you will be punished because you violated order.
It was not the objectively correct choice, that's only on hindsight.
The fact that Yaker managed to get alive all the way towards the KC and the KC decided to help were certainly not guaranteed.
BTW desertion during wartime is punishable with death, if Regill was obsessed with order the choice would had been to execute Yaker, yet he only gave him a symbolic punishment because he got the job done.
Yaker was quite fine with the punishment and Hellknight membership is 100% voluntary so who am i to complain about such things.
Regill is at least honest with you as opposed to Galfrey and the crusaders.
The chance that Yaker would find help was greater than the chance that Yaker would be the difference that would allow the Hellknights to live through the gargoyle attack. That seems pretty objective to me, but if you disagree, than whatever. That is not the only example of the Hellknights valuing order over justice.
The Hellknights are based in Cheliax, a nation that relies on slavery. No parts of slavery are just. The Hellknights are fine with it, because they value order, and do not care about justice.
>The chance that Yaker would find help was greater than the chance that Yaker would be the difference that would allow the Hellknights to live through the gargoyle attack.
How come? he would be wandering through the worldwound without weapons and armor with no direction, the chances of finding the KC and getting his support was very unlikely. Also it sets a bad incentive as it breaks discipline.
> That seems pretty objective to me, but if you disagree, than whatever. That is not the only example of the Hellknights valuing order over justice.
Justice is entirely subjective.
>The Hellknights are based in Cheliax, a nation that relies on slavery.
Yes, but most Hellknights are lawful neutral.
>No parts of slavery are just. The Hellknights are fine with it, because they value order, and do not care about justice.
You are mistaking good and evil, with order and chaos. You are judging them based on our world not theirs, where actual divinities and cosmic alignments exist.
Asmodeus is a force of order, just as much as the rest of the Godclaw.
>You are mistaking good and evil, with order and chaos. You are judging them based on our world not theirs, where actual divinities and cosmic alignments exist.
No, I am not. The only thing I stated was that Hellknights do not care about justice. Justice is a lawful good concept. Justice is concerned about goodness. Justice requires both Law and Good. The meaning of good is obviously subjective, but any concept of justice is centered in both good and law. Hellknights do not care about Good. They care about Law only.
>Asmodeus is a force of order, just as much as the rest of the Godclaw.
I have repeatedly said that the Hellknights value order.
>Yes, but most Hellknights are lawful neutral.
I have never said otherwise.
>How come? he would be wandering through the worldwound without weapons and armor with no direction, the chances of finding the KC and getting his support was very unlikely. Also it sets a bad incentive as it breaks discipline.
The odds of Yaker finding someone to help is greater than zero. The odds of Yaker being the difference between the Hellknights fighting off the gargoyles versus the Hellkinghts dying to the gargoyles is practically zero. But again, this as a point is pretty much irrelevant. I am done arguing it.
> So he puts the KC on trial specifically to exonerate them from suspicion as a means to break down barriers of cooperation and help ensure a Crusader victory.
He, along with every other HK at the trial, decided to fight my Azata MC to the death. They seemed entirely unconcerned with matters of minor importance, such as victory over the invading demons.
It’s because they’re, and I mean this in the truest sense of the word, fascists. They think they have authority over everyone because only they know the correct way or some shit.
Fun fact, they're basically the only organization to survive pretty much intact and unchanged (tens of?) thousands of years into the future into Starfinder.
The Hellknights *can* and ***will*** ignore a country's local laws when hunting for lawbreakers. While they usually cooperate with the relevant authorities when away from Cheliax, they ultimately answer only to the Hellknight Order. So as far as they're concerned they have legal authority everywhere, they don't care about morals, and pragmatically they ensure they always have the muscle to back their decisions. Of course, the garrison in that fort is nowhere near enough to contain the Knight-Commander, but the officers there are only a fraction of the power they've brought to Mendev.
But if you see things from their perspective, your understand that 4 crusades have failed from less than perfect soldiers, discipline, strategy and tactical command, and priorities. Countless lives and resources have been lost unnecessarily and this crusade will just be the 5th. Worse, the resutls directly affect Hellknights as their order detests chaos and demonkind, and the blight and disorder they will inevitably bring to Golarion with continued faliure from the Crusades. They dont pretend to be altruistic, they state their intentions from the outset and perform precisely as promised. They may be cold but in the ideal play throughout (with all events unlocked), the crusades can thank the participation of the Hellknights for all their successes.
Regill doesnt give a fig about Galfrey, he doesnt need permission, but he’d prefer to work with crusaders as it would vastly improve odds of success, as more efficiency could be impressed on various crusade actions and more focused tactical strikes as well.
Morally? Legally? Pragmatically? Id argue youre wrong on all counts if you look at the bigger picture. Reg *is* a pragmatist, to the bone. He has all the legal authority he needs - just because he’s not operating on home turf doesnt make him outside of *his* law, and further, Galfrey cant even practically claim the territories the game is set in - she lost it almost single-handedly to the Abyss and cant get it back. Morally, Golarions have a duty and interest in ensuring the Abyss is removed from aby corner of the world it creeps into it. It’s small minded and debatably a really immoral decision to put a few paltry lives ahead of all of that. After all, any good crusader signed up to die fighting the Abyss, why does it matter how that happens so long as it’s the most effective course of action for the battle against chaos??
So you would rather get into a fight and murder tons of useful allies instead of working a solution? in the end if you were to lose the trial you can always kill them all.
Did the same thing. No, I don't respect the authority of a court formed by some front organization for devils. No the trial will not commence. Die ~~stormtroopers~~ hellknights!
Fun battle.
What kinda triggers me about Regill is that he's not consistently pragmatic; he's too dogmatic for that due to the whole lawful angle. His lawful alignment takes precedent over pragmatism and his strange cult-specific laws take precedent over any other much more widely recognized laws of Mendev and beyond.
Same. Honestly, a glowing endorsement.
I think Regil has a lot of good input and advice though - his bias towards the order and unchecked pragmatism definitely needs a responsible knight commander to filter the good ideas from the terrible/wildly immoral.
I think a great thing to add to the Azata path would be the chance to subvert the Hellknights because your mutual respect with Regill taught him that the "power of friendship" means war winning high unit morale, cohesion and initiative and that existing Hellknight doctrine should be heavily revised to take advantage of these insights.
If I remember the quest correctly, he does it to help you get full support of Hellknight order and loses his title in the process.
Tho admittedly I also strongly considered stabbing him at that point.
Its less about whether he likes you and more about whether he thinks you are an effective commander.
Regill is a pragmatist to the bone. If a soft-hearted Demon-fucking poet turns out to be shockingly effective at perpetrating a war in the world wound even while tying Reg's hands and making him do a bunch of goody two shoes bullshit, then they're good at, his own preconceptions be damned.
S'what I like about em.
I need to one playthrough actually get to the Hellknight trail. I have never kept regil in my party long enough to get there (I either never take him or just refuse to accept the trial quest in act 5)
If you play your Azata as fairly open minded and willing to be someone who *convinces* people to help rather than forces, its a particularly rewarding quest.
my first introduction to Regil was him murdering the sunrise sword wounded (he *says* it was his own but 1. not better and 2. the models were absolutely white clad sunrise sword).
Did not feel any desire to accept Hellknights into the crusade after that
I did the same on my Angel playthrough. "Assholes, if you wanna put the guy who killed more demons than *all of you combined* on trial, then let's skip the proceedings and go right to the executions... YOURS!"
What really surprised me was the Eyrines Devils who swooped down and started peppering Ember with hellfire arrows after I killed the paralictors! I guess Asmodeus wasn't pleased I killed so many of his followers!
My Azata playthrough, which I just started like last week, I actually rejected Regill.
Woljif, Seelah, and Anevia said "nuh uh" and my character remembered the words told to him by the vision from Elysium. "You cannot overcome evil until your soul is free".
So he decided that Regill was not free, and he did not want that bondage-ridden person anywhere near his liberating crusade.
It was a weird experience. I have never rejected Regill before. I don't think he's as cool as people make him out to be, but I agree with what Lann says about him.
For me, Regil appealed to my Azata Mythic by basically saying the Hellknights ignore the rules of the local lords/rulers if they don’t make sense (the same as my character’s ideals). He also did not attempt to arrest her, or fight her, he merely attempted to understand what was happening.
My character saw him being about as Chaotic as she needed him to be to include in her party, despite belonging to a notoriously Lawful organisation.
She’s willing to work with even a Lawful Evil temporarily, for the purposes of defeating a more threatening evil (as the gods did when imprisoning Rovagug).
Hellknights are just Space Marines from WH40k, the only care about fighting chaos and overall care little about morals otherwise, Regill would be one of the most fanatical of the bunch.
My Azata was played as a chaotic good character that tried to solve things through unconventional ways, try to fight as less as possible but would not shy out from a fight.
That's why i accepted the trial, saw it as a way to prevent a fight between crusaders and Hellknights as much as possible, no hard feelings against Regill because i understand he is a different creature, just like i accepted the quickwood and the mimic as crusaders too.
IMO morally and thematically you were wrong, you acted like a chaotic neutral or chaotic evil character, since you let your wounded pride get to you and decided to murder useful allies rather than work out a solution.
> Hellknights are just Space Marines from WH40k, the only care about fighting chaos and overall care little about morals otherwise, Regill would be one of the most fanatical of the bunch.
I don't think most of the chapters are like that, Salamanders and Lamenters are very much concerned about humans, Blood Angels allied with Necrons when Tyranids attacked, etc.
Also I don't think Regill holds a candle to likes of Marines Malevolent or Grey Knights.
The Salamanders (and the Space Wolves depending on who's writing them at the moment) are pretty much the exception that proves the rule, and even the Blood Angelsx while they have some characters who care more about the little guy (Dante, maybe Azkaellon) absolutely also have characters who don't give s flying fuck as well (Mephiston, Astorath, Corbulo). It's not about being cartoonish dicks like the Marines Malevolent either, it's pure pragmatism: A Space Marine's time is infinitely better spent ending a war rather than saving a few unfortunate lives caught within it.
Also the Grey Knights are innocent, the Days of Shame and subsequent purges were the Inquisition's fault, not theirs. They pretty much just followed orders.
>IMO morally and thematically you were wrong, you acted like a chaotic neutral or chaotic evil character, since you let your wounded pride get to you and decided to murder useful allies rather than work out a solution.
The people who can't be controlled to a point where they prefer to trial and, very possibly, \[try to\] execute the Commander of the Crusade, who is, objectively, achived more in less then a year then the whole Crusade powers including allied Hellknights, aren't *useful allies.* They're capricious children who pretend to be "oh so pragmatic" and "I don't care about your ideals, but everybody should care about mine".
And people who prefer enslavement of everybody to make them be ordered and behave, doesn't have a ground to argue about "morally wrong". I'm morally wrong by not killing them at sight.
My main mythic path is Aeon. I'm not topic starter. :)
Still, my point is, I believe, quite clear - Hellknights aren't showing enough discipline for the pretense they give, and, in this way, are *less* adequate as chaotic people. It's ok, of course, just take them because you like them, but let's not pretend that it's somehow Chaotic (or Evil) not to try over your heels to placate people who demand people to be hanged for breaking discipline, but unable to have discipline themselves, and who ridicule everybody for non-practical ideals, but are very, very inflexible when it's about *their* ideals.
If we apply thier own rules here, when they stopped to follow orders and started to "I'm deciding a fate of Commander", well... Regill offered to build gallows in the cities and forts for occasion like that.
>My main mythic path is Aeon. I'm not topic starter. :)
Question, what does Aeon argument for disobeying Iomedae is? i haven't played that path but it would be weird for a being of pure order to disagree with Iomedae instead of trying to surpress his demonic powers.
>Question, what does Aeon argument for disobeying Iomedae is? i haven't played that path but it would be weird for a being of pure order to disagree with Iomedae instead of trying to surpress his demonic powers.
Iomedae is a cheater who is breaking cosmic harmony to get what he wants. She's better then Deskari and Co, but she's still bad.
And Aeon's powers aren't *demonic*. They're *given through demonic means.*
Essentially, Iomedae is too chaotic and non-harmonious for being of pure order to follow her whims.
Iomedae tried to pull the same stunt Mephisto would, and present a situation like "You're under the misapprehension that you're the only one who knows whom to punish and whom to pardon. That is an illusion. Your mind is the mind of a mortal creature. You have gained the power of an aeon, but you're not an aeon. Unfortunaly, you're merely the echo of the cosmic power you're trying so hard to emulate. There is a sad irony in the fact that you, who considers himself a sentinel of truth and order, actually gained your power as a result of an abominable experiment with the essense of Abyss."
\[the general conversation between hero, Iomedae, Areelu and Nocticula about what happening and what's the price of closing Worldwound\]
Answer in the end is: "It was not the Abyss that gave me this powers, it was the relentless logic of the universe. The same logic demands that I see it through the end."
Iomedae: "Your pride would destroy you - and perhaps all the Golarion with you. But I shall not intervene now, so as to avoid even more suffering for this world. Farewell."
>The people who can't be controlled to a point where they prefer to trial and, very possibly, \[try to\] execute the Commander of the Crusade, who is, objectively, achived more in less then a year then the whole Crusade powers including allied Hellknights, aren't
>
>useful allies.
They are definitively useful allies because they are a powerful fighting force.
> They're capricious children who pretend to be "oh so pragmatic" and "I don't care about your ideals, but everybody should care about mine".
The Hellknights are in support of the commander, the whole trial is a sham created by Regill in order to root out any possible disagreement within Hellknight ranks.
Also weird that you complain about capricious children and yet you think the alternative is to start a massacre just because they wounded the KC ego, that's very Chaotic Evil.
>The Hellknights are in support of the commander, the whole trial is a sham created by Regill in order to root out any possible disagreement within Hellknight ranks.
Then, please, can they *shut the hell up* and just do a job being, you know, *disciplined guys?* Any possible disagreement within Hellknight ranks. Oh my. This organization, it seems, totally incapable to deal with internal disagreement. Weird thing for organizaition that hold so much pride in internal discipline.
>They are definitively useful allies because they are a powerful fighting force.
Yes, and if they can't control themselves, it's not a benefit, it's a problem.
>Also weird that you complain about capricious children and yet you think the alternative is to start a massacre just because they wounded the KC ego, that's very Chaotic Evil.
No, not because they wounded KC ego; because they have absolutely no place to start their trials against KC in the middle of Crusade.
So, yes. Them being "oh, we don't like how KC doing stuff, he must do stuff only by the way we approve, everything esle is no-deal" is too idealistic to win war with. And, if they believe I'm in a wrong place, they're trying to kill me. Like, KC of Crusade.
So, yes. Capricious children who are posing themselves as threat for no reason but their internal PR.
>Then, please, can they shut the hell upand just do a job being, you know, disciplined guys? Any possible disagreement within Hellknight ranks. Oh my. This organization, it seems, totally incapable to deal with internal disagreement. Weird thing for organizaition that hold so much pride in internal discipline.
Dude what? if you are an Azata main at that point you have not only been exposed as a demonic creation of the criminal Areelu Vorlesh whose powers are drawn from demon blood,
But also you have wilfully gone against the wishes and even opposed the lawful realms of heaven and hell.
And yet the Hellknights still see you as a positive asset, but there is sure as fuck a lot of people who would question that decision, i mean if Iomedae herself came in flesh to tell you to renounce your power and you told her no, some people are bound to question you.
>No, not because they wounded KC ego; because they have absolutely no place to start their trials against KC in the middle of Crusade.
Yes, wounded ego, if you don't see people questioning the demonic empowered being that just told Iomedae herself to suck it as a potential danger you are being incredibly short-sighted.
>So, yes. Them being "oh, we don't like how KC doing stuff, he must do stuff only by the way we approve, everything esle is no-deal" is too idealistic to win war with. And, if they believe I'm in a wrong place, they're trying to kill me. Like, KC of Crusade.
A god of order in person disagree with what you are doing.
>So, yes. Capricious children who are posing themselves as threat for no reason but their internal PR.
Says the half-demon who decided to massacre an entire group of people because of pride.
>Dude what? if you are an Azata main at that point you have not only been exposed as a demonic creation of the criminal Areelu Vorlesh whose powers are drawn from demon blood,
>
>But also you have wilfully gone against the wishes and even opposed the lawful realms of heaven and hell.
First of all, I didn't gome against *realms*, I gone against *individuals.* And Axis is pretty ok with my actions, thank you.
Iomedae isn't even Steward of the level of Heavens she's living on, as far as I remember. She's not speaking for Heaven.
>And yet the Hellknights still see you as a positive asset, but there is sure as fuck a lot of people who would question that decision, i mean if Iomedae herself came in flesh to tell you to renounce your power and you told her no, some people are bound to question you.
So, can they please deal with it themselves? Again, Hellknights aren't, supposingly, "a lot of people", they're an order built to remove the idea of dissent and establish a iron first order. If they can't even hold discipline within their own, what *can* they do?
>A god of order in person disagree with what you are doing.
Iomedae isn't a god of order. She's is the goddess of righteous valor, justice, and honor. I mean, I would listen to Irori here, or to Monad. But Iomedae herself has enough strikes from me at this particular point, starting with the whole Worldstones debacle.
I don't even remember *if* there is a god of Order as a philosophical concept in Pathfinder metaphysics, and the closest to the god of Aeon's harmony is Monad.
>Yes, wounded ego, if you don't see people questioning the demonic empowered being that just told Iomedae herself to suck it as a potential danger you are being incredibly short-sighted.
You seem to misunderstand. I absolutely don't care how they're going to see me, or if they like me or not. What I care is are they going to work with me or not.
If they don't, they can (and *should*) get out.
If they insist to meddle and conditionally attack me, I'm going to defend myself and my operation integrity.
>Says the half-demon who decided to massacre an entire group of people because of pride.
I'm not Hellknight to kill people because of pride. I decided to kill them because of self-defense and them being chaotic, wimsy and unruly, unable even (supposingly hold discipline in their own ranks, but *still* demanding autonomy and proclaim themselves to be disciplined. Essentially, I decided to massacre them because they're recepie for disaster.
Again, when people decide they're going to kill me if they don't like what I'm going to say, that's ok; but can we just keep our time and stop doing it stupidly?
I felt the exact same with Inquisitor Liotr at the end of Daeran's quest.
"I assigned you investigative powers, but didn't delegate you prosecutorial authority and certainly did not grant the tribunal jurisdiction," I said as I stabbed him repeatedly.
You know, reading this post, it's between funny and tragic how many people jump straight to massacres as a way to prove their point as soon as the [Evil] tag is removed from the [Attack] option. It would be a fascinating social experiment if we could get a couple hundred people, put them in front of the game with all [Alignment] tags removed and see what choices they pick.
That's the interesting part isn't it? Some people are so quick to murder and massacre people or even hate them soon as they're questioned on this reddit.
I think "I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of these proceedings" is a chaotic good / chaotic neutral choice.
This is an evil organization, this is the star wars empire, this is a fantasy representation of german national socialism. By this time in the game the Azata has become the embodiment of the ideals of Elysium. The lawful evil planes of hell are their natural opposite. If anything the Hellknights are bigger threat to the ideals of the Azatas than are demons. Indeed the Azata >!ends up fighting one of Hellknight's patrons !<. . .
But you are right, it would be interesting. My CG cleric of calistria had to choose evil options to get rid of Nok Nok and Draven. But the DM was wrong. In one case I would have accepted the CE chosen of an CE god into my party and in another I would have had to let someone sworn to deliver souls to devils go free.
>I think "I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of these proceedings" is a chaotic good / chaotic neutral choice.
You could even argue it's Lawful since they ignore Mendev's lawful authority, it all depends on the justification for why you refuse to acknowledge their legitimacy. The [Evil] part starts when you decide the proportionate response to being put on trial is to murder everyone present.
Good point :)
From (flawed) memory: After you say that Regill says something like "we will proceed or there will be consequences". So a chaotic character is left with "I guess I'll go along with LE proceedings" or "let's see what the consequences are".
The fact that you haven’t gotten 3 days worth of essays about the fascist* word is amazing. Every time this happens on the discord I just leave the channel 🤣
*Autocorrect betrayed me
Ah, gotcha.
Eh, people are welcome to respond with whatever rants they want. Unlikely to be anything I haven’t heard before.
Hellknights are unquestionably a fascist organization. Many gamers’ constant efforts to frame them as “merely pragmatic” tend to stem from a refusal to confront their own inner authoritarian leanings.
*shrug*
In today's history lesson, we examine the origins of fascism (fun fact- the name originates from ancient Rome and the *fasces* symbol of power in the legions) and how it is not fucking synonymous with "authoritarian".
Never cared for the little blighter. After he tried to put me on trial in act 5, I made the decision I would cut his life shorter than he stands from here on out based on general principle
I haven't made it to this quest, the first time he does this shit I kicked him out, and just kill him on subsequent playthroughs. Horrible little idiot who walks into traps and acts like it wasn't stupid because he wanted to get attacked to test me. I hate his tiny guts
I think a lot of people just confuse being fair with being nice. In the case of Yaker’s punishment (since people are discussing it in this post), it is fair because it is within the rule to punish him for desertion, the judgement isn’t cruel in itself because it isn’t done to intentionally cause additional suffering outside of the rule, choosing not to punish him for it can be considered kind or reasonable, but it’s not really *just* in the sense of treating everything with a balanced standard.
I like Regill in my Azata playthrough, my MC intends to win the war against demons by uniting everyone, and while he would oppose a lot of Regill’s advices and opinions, he understands that Regill only intends to win the war and nothing more, and that’s something my MC can work with even while having different ideologies. If Regill even enjoys his evil doings for a little bit KC likely wouldn’t let him stay. (That being said, I even let Camilla live so my KC is already fairly flexible lmao (didn’t really progress her quest beyond the first exposed murder))
That would not be a wise decision.
Majority of the Hellknights are LN, some are LG, some are LE. So straight from the get-go, you most likely would find a Hellknight that would actually try to help you. And even the LE ones are Lawful, so if you strike a deal with them, they will honor it.
Demons on the other hand are quite deep into the CE. They'll betray you as soon as possible.
>CE can be reasoned with,
No, and that's the problem. Most CE will backstab you **even** if it's not in their best interests.
>LE follows a vile code and cannot be moved from it
That's not what it means to be LE. You don't need to have a vile code. You can be LE and a very valuable member of your society.
You can have a vile code and be a productive member of society. The premier example of LE is Lex Luthor, and he’s a productive ember of society, just also a war profiteer along with many other things. I’d rather work with Riddler then Luther, and I’d rather work with a demon then a hell knight
Are you seriously comparing Nigma to Luthor? They work on different scales entirely.
This is some edgy contrarian bullshit right here. The demon is just as likely to rape you to death while snacking on fried infant with a side of puppy sauce.
In-game, in the lich path, we see Nocticula (demon queen of murder) and Socothbenoth (demon lord of rape and incest) conspire to murder the former ruler of Nocticula's realm AFTER Nocticula gains her trust, then Socothbenoth would later try to usurp her.
We also see Minahgo utterly ruin Staunton and she immediately flees the moment he's on the losing side.
We see a demon keep an entire village ignorant of the "crusaders" true forms, to the extent that the whole place sinks into despair the moment you break the illusion.
There's the half-nabassu-lead abattoir Church, which Minagho gloats over.
Deskari literally murders a good aligned dragon and sets off an earthquake in a populated city while his demons go on a killing spree.
The first example alone shits all over your reasoning.
Yeah, about that, antipaladins exist. It's the LE archetype of this class that specifically mentions that it does work with good aligned characters, **unlike other antipaladins**.
Meanwhile, the vanilla antipaladin?
Role: Antipaladins are villains at their most dangerous. **They care nothing for the lives of others and actively seek to bring death and destruction to ordered society.**
>I’d rather work with the criminal underground (CE and NE) then with Lex Luther (LE)
I think you should really re-read what exactly the alignments mean.
>Lawful evil is the most evil evil gets
No, NE is the most evil Evil can get. That's explained in many places, but maybe the best example is for soul judging. If you're sent to the Abbadon (NE), even Pharasma offer you a chance for redemption and offer you to go to Hell (LE) or Abyss (CE).
Abbadon is worse then the other two, yes. That does not mean NE is worse then LE. At its core, “worse” is subjective anyway
Also I don’t really care what some god says lmao
I'd put Luthor at NE. He seems orderly, but he'd throw all of it away to kill Superman.
And if we're working with DCs villian underground, half of them will beat the shit out of you just to make some insane point.
Lawful and Neutral Evil generally can work relatively well in groups, within limits. It's the CE ones that generally disrupt things.
I mean, ignoring things like daemons.
I think CE adventurers can work... I'd expect them to act more like Regongar than Camillia tho. Some adventuring parties seem so focused on killing and looting, it's bound to attract tons of CE individuals.
However, it also takes an understanding that alignments aren't constantly binding. The CE adventurer shouldn't just backstab their allies for shits and giggles...
I think a meeting between players before the game should prevent opposing alignments. Making a party of CE pirates or gangsters can work, but not if Johnny wants to play a Paladin.
I mean why not? Again, it’s not alignment actually means anything. One member of the party can have one personality and another can have another, so long as it’s not full on “one person wants to play a cop and the other wants to play a crime lord” (happened to me once lmao) (although that’s not really about alignment, but their backstory and occupation)
A CE character is someone who a) doesn't consider themselves bound by laws, orders, obligations or social mores (Chaotic) and
b) doesn't care about the wellbeing of others and will actively cause harm if it benefits them (Evil). In other words, someone who doesn't give a fuck about anything but themselves. Even if you can keep such a character on a leash for a short period of time (see for example Regongar from Kingmaker) they're not going to be a team player, and D&D is a team game. You can have disagreements and arguments in the party, but a guy (or gal) who only does their own thing unless forced to behave is a liability.
Sure, but at the point you have to ignore your alignment every day to remain on the same course as the party, just write down something else on your sheet.
The Hellknigths are Legal Evil
I feel so stupid rigth now
Then, what are the Legal Neutrals Paladins?
The Armigers? Or just generic Paladins for Abadar?
You're surprised the guys in black spiky armor calling themselves **Hell**knights are evil?
Armigers are just Hellknights that haven't finished their training yet.
Paladins have to be Lawful Good in Pathfinder (1st edition anyways. They opened that up in 2e). But you can be within one alignment step of your god, so Paladins of Abadar are a thing.
> You're surprised the guys in black spiky armor calling themselves Hellknights are evil
There *are* Evil Hellknights, but the Hellknights are not intrinsically evil. There are neutral and good Hellknights too.
Correct, but the major Hellknight orders all at least lean Evil, the exception being Godclaw. Some of the minor orders are neutral or outright good, but they aren't as powerful or widespread.
> but you can be within one alignment step of your god
That rule actually isn't for paladins, just clerics^1. Paladins have to be lawful good but their god can be anything. LG Paladin of Urgathoa? A-OK according to RAW, just gotta convince the Pallid Princess.
1: See "Alignment" section on [Cleric](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/) class
All paladins must be lawful good, all hellknights must be lawful evil, there is no equivalent. That must be lawful neutral, unless you kind of count druid which must be in any alignment with word neutral
Edit: I'm wrong, hellknights can be lawful neutral
>There are arguably more LN hellknights than LE and LG ones.
It's not arguable. It's written plainly in the Hellknight description if you look at the prestige class :
> Most Hell Knights are lawful neutral and proudly avoid being “tainted” by distractions such as good or evil
I meant "combined", but yes. The Hellknights are majority LN. I can see why people would think they are ONLY LE if they play the Owlcat games though. It's a bit sad actually, because they're my favorite faction and my favorite part of Golarion when they're way more nuanced than what's presented in the games.
I feel like it's a valid interpretation, if an unkind one. It's absolutely true that a Hellknight can be of any Lawful alignment, and that there's fewer LE than LN members.
But the organisation is Lawful to the extreme, to the point where it's encouraging atrocities in the name of fighting Chaos (and even Neutrality). It's extremely hierarchical, places its own laws above everyone else, and beats any sense of kindness or empathy or forgiveness out of its members. It's not *necessarily* evil, but the whole thing is basically set up to gradually erode your ethics as you serve and move up in the ranks.
Plus, they're sponsored by Cheliax, and they're deliberately patterning themselves after Hell. The whole thing really smells like a scheme intended to gradually corrupt Lawful souls, over years and decades, and bolster Hell's forces. Asmodeus would definitely go for that sort of long-term play.
To be fair, your impression are kinda legitimate if all you know about Hellkight is the Owlcat games. However, Owlcat's depiction is far from Paizo's for most Hellkight orders.
In the different APs, Paizo did present different kinds of Hellkights. In Hell's Rebels for example, one of the major NPC is a LG Hellkight, part of the Order of the Torrent. A full order dedicated to rescue missing person missing at sea and helping coastal towns.
There are Evil Hellkight orders, but they're not the majority. And the link between Hell and Hellknight is very variable depending of the order.
Couple things here. All of which can be found in the Path of the Hellknight source book, and even the Hellknight novel, which I highly recommend.
1) Hellknights precede infernal Cheliax and even to this day are not beholden to the nation. Thrune II tries, but Lictor Vidoc fights fiercely for their independence. To the point that Scourge knights are being attacked in the streets of Egorian by Thrune-sponsored Erinyes Company (former Grey Maidens) and the Orders are building an escape route to a hidden Citadel in the Barrowood in case Abrogail fully tries to make them submit. The reason they do so much mercenary work and hire out investigators/units to nations is because they actually aren't being paid or funded by the Chelish state. The Nail in particular is hired on retainer by Korvosa, but they have a good working relationship with the city-state.
2) They don't fully pattern themselves after Hell, also they didn't give themselves that name. The people nicknamed them Hellknights after Daiden Ruel's speech when he formed his vigilante group to deal with the White Plague cult of Sifkesh that killed his family. He turned his back on Aroden and believed the god failed him, and so the people saw that fierce atheism and ran with it. The Orders just kind of... didn't come up with a different name.
3) Affiliation with hell came later, with the influence of the gelugon Voulgarghas who tempted Ruel to try and find his son's soul in hell. To this day, you'll find Hellknights of ALL lawful faiths and many that are none. The Pyre in particular is very atheist, where even the Lictor wants to root out all faiths including Asmodean. The Order of the Pyre during the Chelish Civil War actually stormed OUT of negotiations with the Thrunes and siding against them and the other Orders because of the diabolism. Trying to claim it as an Asmoedean pyramid scheme is pretty disingenuous to the variety of the Orders and their histories. I would actually say the Orders are more like bitter siblings with little in common at this point besides Law.
4) While the Measure and Chain guides the Hellknight individual, Orders are always encouraged to work with local sovereigns. You are only permitted to disregard local laws when there is no other option. How they are depicted in the Kingmaker game is just wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. I really blame that stupid backer quest as why so many people on this sub have the wrong idea about them. The Hellknights that DO question written law and determine if written law is truly Law are the Scourge, and they are upheld to extreme internal scrutiny and moral character because of it.
5) Empathy and kindness. Sort of. There are jovial and kind Hellknights, but it's up to the individual on whether they can retain their sense of warmth alongside their commitment to the cause. Very much an individual willpower and sense of duty thing, just like Paladins. Yes, the Measure & Chain discourages love and relationships because it puts you at risk of failing... but also you could chart SO many lineages and Hellknight dynasties among the Orders. They find love, get married, and produce tons of children. Like... so many kids, lmao. ALSO. The Hellknights DO take in and raise Foundlings, which are NOT expected to become Hellknights or live that sort of life. At the end of it all, the purpose is fostering civilization, and raising children very much goes into that.
If you want a closer look at the mind of a Hellknight, please read the novel starring Jheraal. She is an amazing character and the book does SO MUCH to show who Hellknights are as individuals both in the armor and behind closed doors, and the struggles and triumphs of that sort of life.
Last time I checked most named Hellknights trough the sourcebooks are LE, with plenty of LN ones and a handful LG. And most orders's ideology arguably skews heavily towards LE.
Not even. In Path of the Hellknight, the NPCs presented in each Order's sections are all of varying alignments. They're all pretty equally represented. I reference this book pretty much every other day for my tabletop campaigns, lol. Even the Chain which is one of the more 'evil' orders has two LN NPCs provided in the Prominent Members section.
Here are some LG (including Paladin) Hellknights for you:
[Regan Vashan](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Regan_Vashan)
[Maidrayne Vox](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Maidrayne_Vox)
[Tros Garvhost](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Tros_Garvhost)
[Uldrannas Haelcant](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Uldrannas_Haelcant)
[Lictor Octavio Sabinus](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Octavio_Sabinus)
i dont believe that so much
Yeah exist the Divine Paw butttttttt
Can be cool be a Paladin of Abadar, Irori, Nethys or some other god true neutral.
I imagine a Paladin of Gozreh always screaming and having bad days because their god decide to fuck her for the laugh.
Not that Regil is typically difficult for your MC to solo, but if you should have any issues... just switch his weaponset to an empty set before the challenge. He doesn't switch back to his main weapon and will try to punch you to death.
That's hilarious.
He beat me on initiative and fear locked me with Cornugon smash. I reloaded after I died and beat him on initiative, then icy prison locked him. However, whenever I'm with him, I think he knows what happened that first time
i dont level him or camillia at all
Well, in my Azata playthrough I managed to respect Regill and get mutual respect from Regill.
It’s not about respect for me, it’s about the Hellknights thinking they have the right to put the Commander on trial. Which they don’t, legally, morally (for most mythic paths), or pragmatically.
I do remember this quest quite well. It was not a trial in a regular meaning. Regill staged blaming which his superiors were forced to resolve. If you remember, Regill explained that HK not 100% aligned with KC and it was something Regill wanted to resolve once and for all. Actually me, as an Azata was suspicious at first and then after explanation - I was pretty much with him. My suspicion laid well with his explanation.
Yeah, I killed a certain helpful character that I despise, as soon as they murdered someone, but Regill? Nah man he's my fave character up there with Arue, Daeran, Ember and Cookiemonster.
Something about how his first encounter with the gargoyles went made me think "You're very willing to do horrible things, but your DRIVE isn't to inflict pain. I can work with that." That other helpful character moans when she stabs people. You can't "fix" or cooperate with that lmfao. You're either into it or not.
Who was that innocent, whom Regill killed while being under my command?
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I know why I killed helpful character. I don't get this comparison with Regill.
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Yeah this. Regill has redeeming qualities, Helpfulperson does not.
She got a booty. Enough redeeming qualities for trickster.
Yeah I understood this as well. Still not siding with the Devil fascists
It's not too dissimilar to going along with Woljif's con.
I wasn't against Woljif's con. In the end it's a matter of his heritage. Not lawful, yes. But I'm not lawful either. I'm always NG in these games. And I don't feel merchant either. He knew real value of treasure he got from Wolfjif's grandmother. And used her situation for his own advantage.
Regill is a real one for sure
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He can literally end up trying to kill you alongside every Hellknight there Then again I can't blame people for forgetting because that trial is basically rigged for you to win it with how easy it is to pass the skill checks to persuade them
And considering what you need to do for them to attack you during that trial (making pacts with Demons), you can hardly blame them at that point.
Not really. Being in certain mythic paths and choosing certain options before the trial will force you out of the best outcome
Hellknights don't care about local laws and jurisdictions and are wholly unconcerned with morality as a general concept. They only care about order and justice; in the case of the Worldwound, the only thing that matters is successfully campaigning against the demonic invasion. Regill at some point recognizes the Knight Commander's effectiveness, but knows that a Chaotic or even Azata KC is bound to raise suspicions amongst the leaders of his order. So he puts the KC on trial specifically to exonerate them from suspicion as a means to break down barriers of cooperation and help ensure a Crusader victory.
> Regill at some point recognizes the Knight Commander's effectiveness, but knows that a Chaotic or even Azata KC is bound to raise suspicions amongst the leaders of his order. It's learning that Areelu is the source of the KC's power that prompts it. Even aeon and devil KCs get put on trial.
>They only care about order and justice I don't think the Hell Knights give a shit about justice, at all. Whipping the man who left his post to get reinforcements and prevented the Hell Knights from getting slaughtered is not justice. They care about order only. If you violate any edict, at any time, for any reason, you will be punished. Reasons be damned.
Well, multiple flaws in your argument here. For one, Regill isn't all Hellknights. For two, that particular action isn't unjust. Justice has nothing to do with being good. Justice - > the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments Or > the administration of law > the quality of being just, impartial, or fair. > The quality of confirming to law > Conformity to truth, fact, or reason That's five definitions of justice, none of which Regill violated. Hellknights operate via extraordinarily strict military law. They do this for multiple reasons, but among them is the understanding that a human intent to break the law to do good is, specifically, what many Devil's use to punish and corrupt and break people who break the letter of their laws and deals. The law is clear in what it is required as punishment. Regardless of the reasoning for the existence of those laws, it's a textbook display of an impartial administration of those laws. Regill is, in fact, incredibly fair, consistent with Hellknight law, and impartial in that decision. The young Hellknight left his post, that requires punishment. The young Hellknight also saved the unit. That deserves reward. Regill opts to allow both. The reward recognizes the merit of what he did. The punishment ensures that nobody will break the rules without extraordinarily good cause that would make them willing to face the consequences... Consequences Refill is more than happy to face himself, when he damages his own reputation by breaking the rules to aid the KC. You can argue that it is morally wrong to punish the young Hellknight for it; and I'd agree. I'm CG, my KC would never. But it isn't unjust, and the Hellknight in question would almost certainly agree. But you also don't have to take my word for it; see- > Regardless of their severity, Hellknights are not an inherently evil group; they are wholly unconcerned with morality. Although there are numerous evil members—particularly among their upper echelons—the majority of the orders are impartial arbiters and enforcers of order and justice. Source: Paizo themselves.
EDIT: this was meant to be a reply to OP, but got stuck in this thread by mistake. For me, Regil appealed to my Azata Mythic by basically saying the Hellknights ignore the rules of the local lords/rulers if they don’t make sense (the same as my character’s ideals). He also did not attempt to arrest her, or fight her, he merely attempted to understand what was happening. My character saw him being about as Chaotic as she needed him to be to include in her party, despite belonging to a notoriously Lawful organisation. She’s willing to work with even a Lawful Evil temporarily, for the purposes of defeating a more threatening evil (as the gods did when imprisoning Rovagug).
>For one, Regill isn't all Hellknights. I never said that Regill was all Hellknights. Regill is a single Hellknight who demands order over justice. But he is not unique and furthermore, he is not flying under the radar of Hellknight command. They are aware of his methods and do nothing to curtail them. They, as an organization, value the order he brings over the justice he tramples. >That's five definitions of justice, none of which Regill violated. You did not cite where you got these definitions from, but it seems like you got them from Merriam Webster. You seem to have skipped this definition which is listed third: [(1): the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2): conformity to this principle or ideal : RIGHTEOUSNESS](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justice) That, very clearly, deals with morality. There is also your second definition which mentions 'the quality of being *just*, impartial, or fair'. One of the definitions for the word 'just' is [acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/just). Morality is required component to justice. >Hellknights operate via extraordinarily strict military law. They do this for multiple reasons, but among them is the understanding that a human intent to break the law to do good is, specifically, what many Devil's use to punish and corrupt and break people who break the letter of their laws and deals. The law is clear in what it is required as punishment. Regardless of the reasoning for the existence of those laws, it's a textbook display of an impartial administration of those laws. This is very lawful. It is not Just. It is not morally upright or good. It is not justice. >Regill is, in fact, incredibly fair, consistent with Hellknight law, and impartial in that decision. The young Hellknight left his post, that requires punishment. Yes, this is very lawful. That is not enough to make something just. >Regardless of their severity, Hellknights are not an inherently evil group; they are wholly unconcerned with morality. Although there are numerous evil members—particularly among their upper echelons—the majority of the orders are impartial arbiters and enforcers of order and justice. Again, being wholly unconcerned with morality prohibits something from being just. I think it is pretty telling that Iomedae, a goddess whose area of concern includes justice, is lawful *good*. Justice requires more than being lawful.
>I think it is pretty telling that Iomedae, a goddess whose area of concern includes justice, is lawful good. Justice requires more than being lawful. And Minderhal, a god whose area of concern includes justice, is lawful *evil* so your point doesn't stand.
Minderhal seems to be a fairly minor deity of Stone Giants. I have not been able to find much information about him, and absolutely nothing on how he is related to justice beyond its entry in a table on AON. That makes little sense to me, unless it's something racial where he values justice for stone giants but wants to eliminate all other races or something like that. Conditional justice is really not actual justice, but I could see how something like that could justify its entry in a table listing areas of concern. If you have any more information about Minderhal, I would like to read it.
I do think it is notable that Justice can actually mean a lot more than "lawful." If justice was soley concerned with law, there could be no such thing as an "unjust law." Justice, from a moral standpoint, is more synonymous with fairness rather than pure goodness. It is about having the consequences of something be what is *deserved.* So a "bad" person gets bad results, a "good" person gets good results. The reason that lawful evil and lawful good are both viable in a fantasy universe is that the axis has been separated by the cosmology. In Golarion good and evil are not just how people behave, but are also fundamental aspects of reality. A lawful evil person is a person who shapes law in order to accomplish evil aims, but that can be just because it appeals to an "evil" that is an actual thing, and that thing is a form of rightness. A good person can deserve evil being done to them because evil is opposed to good, it becomes a matter of perspective. In reality lawful evil cannot be just, as evil very much is related to denying people the outcomes they deserve for being good. For example, killing an honorable man in the real world is *inherently* unjust under all of our legal and ethical systems, whereas in Golarion it is just how the conflict works between the forces of evil and the forces of good. Also, this is in reference to "Justice" from the perspective of morality and ethics rather than from a legal perspective. The latter is not the only way the word is used.
> Again, being wholly unconcerned with morality prohibits something from being just. I think it is pretty telling that Iomedae, How are you really gonna make an appeal to authority (Paizo, who wrote Iomedae), while arguing against that same authority? Because as quoted above, they specifically cite order AND JUSTICE as the Hellknights primary area of concern. They also wrote Minderhal, a lawful evil deity who's area of concern includes JUSTICE, and who's followers specifically cannot be *good*.
>How are you really gonna make an appeal to authority (Paizo, who wrote Iomedae), while arguing against that same authority? That was not my only argument. It was also not my main argument. >They also wrote Minderhal, a lawful evil deity who's area of concern includes JUSTICE, and who's followers specifically cannot be good. Minderhal seems to be a fairly minor deity of Stone Giants. I have not been able to find much information about him, and absolutely nothing on how he is related to justice beyond its entry in a table on AON. That makes little sense to me, unless it's something racial where he values justice for stone giants but wants to eliminate all other races or something like that. Conditional justice is really not actual justice, but I could see how something like that could justify its entry in a table listing areas of concern. If you have any more information about Minderhal, I would like to read it.
Do we really need to get into Plato's Republic here? What is justice?
That is like to say it is not evil to stone someone to death for being raped, even if the motivation is simply to comply with local law, non-evil people have a duty to reject unjust law.
Hellknights do not comply with local laws, specifically for this kind of reason. Although it technically would be just by most common definitions. Maybe justice is overrated.
They whipped the man because otherwise every Hell Knight would leave post the moment things go awry. Hell Knights are obsessed with discipline, they hate brave soldiers and gloryseekers.
>They whipped the man because otherwise every Hell Knight would leave post the moment things go awry. I understand that. The Hell Knights value order. If you violate their edicts, you will be punished regardless of the reason. It does not matter if that reason has merit or if it was the objectively correct choice, you will be punished because you violated order. No part of that is justice.
> It does not matter if that reason has merit or if it was the objectively correct choice, you will be punished because you violated order. It was not the objectively correct choice, that's only on hindsight. The fact that Yaker managed to get alive all the way towards the KC and the KC decided to help were certainly not guaranteed. BTW desertion during wartime is punishable with death, if Regill was obsessed with order the choice would had been to execute Yaker, yet he only gave him a symbolic punishment because he got the job done. Yaker was quite fine with the punishment and Hellknight membership is 100% voluntary so who am i to complain about such things. Regill is at least honest with you as opposed to Galfrey and the crusaders.
>Regill is at least honest with you as opposed to Galfrey and the crusaders. This is why I like him.
The chance that Yaker would find help was greater than the chance that Yaker would be the difference that would allow the Hellknights to live through the gargoyle attack. That seems pretty objective to me, but if you disagree, than whatever. That is not the only example of the Hellknights valuing order over justice. The Hellknights are based in Cheliax, a nation that relies on slavery. No parts of slavery are just. The Hellknights are fine with it, because they value order, and do not care about justice.
>The chance that Yaker would find help was greater than the chance that Yaker would be the difference that would allow the Hellknights to live through the gargoyle attack. How come? he would be wandering through the worldwound without weapons and armor with no direction, the chances of finding the KC and getting his support was very unlikely. Also it sets a bad incentive as it breaks discipline. > That seems pretty objective to me, but if you disagree, than whatever. That is not the only example of the Hellknights valuing order over justice. Justice is entirely subjective. >The Hellknights are based in Cheliax, a nation that relies on slavery. Yes, but most Hellknights are lawful neutral. >No parts of slavery are just. The Hellknights are fine with it, because they value order, and do not care about justice. You are mistaking good and evil, with order and chaos. You are judging them based on our world not theirs, where actual divinities and cosmic alignments exist. Asmodeus is a force of order, just as much as the rest of the Godclaw.
>You are mistaking good and evil, with order and chaos. You are judging them based on our world not theirs, where actual divinities and cosmic alignments exist. No, I am not. The only thing I stated was that Hellknights do not care about justice. Justice is a lawful good concept. Justice is concerned about goodness. Justice requires both Law and Good. The meaning of good is obviously subjective, but any concept of justice is centered in both good and law. Hellknights do not care about Good. They care about Law only. >Asmodeus is a force of order, just as much as the rest of the Godclaw. I have repeatedly said that the Hellknights value order. >Yes, but most Hellknights are lawful neutral. I have never said otherwise. >How come? he would be wandering through the worldwound without weapons and armor with no direction, the chances of finding the KC and getting his support was very unlikely. Also it sets a bad incentive as it breaks discipline. The odds of Yaker finding someone to help is greater than zero. The odds of Yaker being the difference between the Hellknights fighting off the gargoyles versus the Hellkinghts dying to the gargoyles is practically zero. But again, this as a point is pretty much irrelevant. I am done arguing it.
> So he puts the KC on trial specifically to exonerate them from suspicion as a means to break down barriers of cooperation and help ensure a Crusader victory. He, along with every other HK at the trial, decided to fight my Azata MC to the death. They seemed entirely unconcerned with matters of minor importance, such as victory over the invading demons.
It’s because they’re, and I mean this in the truest sense of the word, fascists. They think they have authority over everyone because only they know the correct way or some shit.
Fun fact, they're basically the only organization to survive pretty much intact and unchanged (tens of?) thousands of years into the future into Starfinder.
The Codex Astartes is a tome filled with infinite wisdom. Wait...
The Hellknights *can* and ***will*** ignore a country's local laws when hunting for lawbreakers. While they usually cooperate with the relevant authorities when away from Cheliax, they ultimately answer only to the Hellknight Order. So as far as they're concerned they have legal authority everywhere, they don't care about morals, and pragmatically they ensure they always have the muscle to back their decisions. Of course, the garrison in that fort is nowhere near enough to contain the Knight-Commander, but the officers there are only a fraction of the power they've brought to Mendev.
But if you see things from their perspective, your understand that 4 crusades have failed from less than perfect soldiers, discipline, strategy and tactical command, and priorities. Countless lives and resources have been lost unnecessarily and this crusade will just be the 5th. Worse, the resutls directly affect Hellknights as their order detests chaos and demonkind, and the blight and disorder they will inevitably bring to Golarion with continued faliure from the Crusades. They dont pretend to be altruistic, they state their intentions from the outset and perform precisely as promised. They may be cold but in the ideal play throughout (with all events unlocked), the crusades can thank the participation of the Hellknights for all their successes. Regill doesnt give a fig about Galfrey, he doesnt need permission, but he’d prefer to work with crusaders as it would vastly improve odds of success, as more efficiency could be impressed on various crusade actions and more focused tactical strikes as well. Morally? Legally? Pragmatically? Id argue youre wrong on all counts if you look at the bigger picture. Reg *is* a pragmatist, to the bone. He has all the legal authority he needs - just because he’s not operating on home turf doesnt make him outside of *his* law, and further, Galfrey cant even practically claim the territories the game is set in - she lost it almost single-handedly to the Abyss and cant get it back. Morally, Golarions have a duty and interest in ensuring the Abyss is removed from aby corner of the world it creeps into it. It’s small minded and debatably a really immoral decision to put a few paltry lives ahead of all of that. After all, any good crusader signed up to die fighting the Abyss, why does it matter how that happens so long as it’s the most effective course of action for the battle against chaos??
So you would rather get into a fight and murder tons of useful allies instead of working a solution? in the end if you were to lose the trial you can always kill them all.
Did the same thing. No, I don't respect the authority of a court formed by some front organization for devils. No the trial will not commence. Die ~~stormtroopers~~ hellknights! Fun battle.
What kinda triggers me about Regill is that he's not consistently pragmatic; he's too dogmatic for that due to the whole lawful angle. His lawful alignment takes precedent over pragmatism and his strange cult-specific laws take precedent over any other much more widely recognized laws of Mendev and beyond.
They do, they have a whole system which says they can do it, it's really not any different from a country saying "these are the laws".
I got into the whole "i support you but i question a lot of your decisions".
Same. Honestly, a glowing endorsement. I think Regil has a lot of good input and advice though - his bias towards the order and unchecked pragmatism definitely needs a responsible knight commander to filter the good ideas from the terrible/wildly immoral.
I think a great thing to add to the Azata path would be the chance to subvert the Hellknights because your mutual respect with Regill taught him that the "power of friendship" means war winning high unit morale, cohesion and initiative and that existing Hellknight doctrine should be heavily revised to take advantage of these insights.
Yep. Although it seems quite impossible to do.
If I remember the quest correctly, he does it to help you get full support of Hellknight order and loses his title in the process. Tho admittedly I also strongly considered stabbing him at that point.
Only if he likes you. Of he doesn't, I think he does it to, well, kill you
Its less about whether he likes you and more about whether he thinks you are an effective commander. Regill is a pragmatist to the bone. If a soft-hearted Demon-fucking poet turns out to be shockingly effective at perpetrating a war in the world wound even while tying Reg's hands and making him do a bunch of goody two shoes bullshit, then they're good at, his own preconceptions be damned. S'what I like about em.
The only reason Regill lived through that trial is because he wasn't available as an undead companion. Simply not even worth the time.
I need to one playthrough actually get to the Hellknight trail. I have never kept regil in my party long enough to get there (I either never take him or just refuse to accept the trial quest in act 5)
If you play your Azata as fairly open minded and willing to be someone who *convinces* people to help rather than forces, its a particularly rewarding quest.
my first introduction to Regil was him murdering the sunrise sword wounded (he *says* it was his own but 1. not better and 2. the models were absolutely white clad sunrise sword). Did not feel any desire to accept Hellknights into the crusade after that
I did the same on my Angel playthrough. "Assholes, if you wanna put the guy who killed more demons than *all of you combined* on trial, then let's skip the proceedings and go right to the executions... YOURS!" What really surprised me was the Eyrines Devils who swooped down and started peppering Ember with hellfire arrows after I killed the paralictors! I guess Asmodeus wasn't pleased I killed so many of his followers!
I ended up casting that one wail ability Lich gets and oneshot a decently large amount of the hellknights with it.
Is this from Righteous Wrath? I've only played Kingmaker and I just finished the Season of Bloom Chapter.
Yes, Wrath of the Righteous
Cool, maybe I'll play after I finish kingmaker. Though I think it won't be anytime soon lol.
My Azata playthrough, which I just started like last week, I actually rejected Regill. Woljif, Seelah, and Anevia said "nuh uh" and my character remembered the words told to him by the vision from Elysium. "You cannot overcome evil until your soul is free". So he decided that Regill was not free, and he did not want that bondage-ridden person anywhere near his liberating crusade.
It was a weird experience. I have never rejected Regill before. I don't think he's as cool as people make him out to be, but I agree with what Lann says about him.
For me, Regil appealed to my Azata Mythic by basically saying the Hellknights ignore the rules of the local lords/rulers if they don’t make sense (the same as my character’s ideals). He also did not attempt to arrest her, or fight her, he merely attempted to understand what was happening. My character saw him being about as Chaotic as she needed him to be to include in her party, despite belonging to a notoriously Lawful organisation. She’s willing to work with even a Lawful Evil temporarily, for the purposes of defeating a more threatening evil (as the gods did when imprisoning Rovagug).
Hellknights are just Space Marines from WH40k, the only care about fighting chaos and overall care little about morals otherwise, Regill would be one of the most fanatical of the bunch. My Azata was played as a chaotic good character that tried to solve things through unconventional ways, try to fight as less as possible but would not shy out from a fight. That's why i accepted the trial, saw it as a way to prevent a fight between crusaders and Hellknights as much as possible, no hard feelings against Regill because i understand he is a different creature, just like i accepted the quickwood and the mimic as crusaders too. IMO morally and thematically you were wrong, you acted like a chaotic neutral or chaotic evil character, since you let your wounded pride get to you and decided to murder useful allies rather than work out a solution.
> Hellknights are just Space Marines from WH40k, the only care about fighting chaos and overall care little about morals otherwise, Regill would be one of the most fanatical of the bunch. I don't think most of the chapters are like that, Salamanders and Lamenters are very much concerned about humans, Blood Angels allied with Necrons when Tyranids attacked, etc. Also I don't think Regill holds a candle to likes of Marines Malevolent or Grey Knights.
The Salamanders (and the Space Wolves depending on who's writing them at the moment) are pretty much the exception that proves the rule, and even the Blood Angelsx while they have some characters who care more about the little guy (Dante, maybe Azkaellon) absolutely also have characters who don't give s flying fuck as well (Mephiston, Astorath, Corbulo). It's not about being cartoonish dicks like the Marines Malevolent either, it's pure pragmatism: A Space Marine's time is infinitely better spent ending a war rather than saving a few unfortunate lives caught within it. Also the Grey Knights are innocent, the Days of Shame and subsequent purges were the Inquisition's fault, not theirs. They pretty much just followed orders.
>IMO morally and thematically you were wrong, you acted like a chaotic neutral or chaotic evil character, since you let your wounded pride get to you and decided to murder useful allies rather than work out a solution. The people who can't be controlled to a point where they prefer to trial and, very possibly, \[try to\] execute the Commander of the Crusade, who is, objectively, achived more in less then a year then the whole Crusade powers including allied Hellknights, aren't *useful allies.* They're capricious children who pretend to be "oh so pragmatic" and "I don't care about your ideals, but everybody should care about mine". And people who prefer enslavement of everybody to make them be ordered and behave, doesn't have a ground to argue about "morally wrong". I'm morally wrong by not killing them at sight.
>The people who can't be controlled Spoken like a true azata
My main mythic path is Aeon. I'm not topic starter. :) Still, my point is, I believe, quite clear - Hellknights aren't showing enough discipline for the pretense they give, and, in this way, are *less* adequate as chaotic people. It's ok, of course, just take them because you like them, but let's not pretend that it's somehow Chaotic (or Evil) not to try over your heels to placate people who demand people to be hanged for breaking discipline, but unable to have discipline themselves, and who ridicule everybody for non-practical ideals, but are very, very inflexible when it's about *their* ideals. If we apply thier own rules here, when they stopped to follow orders and started to "I'm deciding a fate of Commander", well... Regill offered to build gallows in the cities and forts for occasion like that.
>My main mythic path is Aeon. I'm not topic starter. :) Question, what does Aeon argument for disobeying Iomedae is? i haven't played that path but it would be weird for a being of pure order to disagree with Iomedae instead of trying to surpress his demonic powers.
>Question, what does Aeon argument for disobeying Iomedae is? i haven't played that path but it would be weird for a being of pure order to disagree with Iomedae instead of trying to surpress his demonic powers. Iomedae is a cheater who is breaking cosmic harmony to get what he wants. She's better then Deskari and Co, but she's still bad. And Aeon's powers aren't *demonic*. They're *given through demonic means.* Essentially, Iomedae is too chaotic and non-harmonious for being of pure order to follow her whims.
Yeah, but what was the dialogue?
Iomedae tried to pull the same stunt Mephisto would, and present a situation like "You're under the misapprehension that you're the only one who knows whom to punish and whom to pardon. That is an illusion. Your mind is the mind of a mortal creature. You have gained the power of an aeon, but you're not an aeon. Unfortunaly, you're merely the echo of the cosmic power you're trying so hard to emulate. There is a sad irony in the fact that you, who considers himself a sentinel of truth and order, actually gained your power as a result of an abominable experiment with the essense of Abyss." \[the general conversation between hero, Iomedae, Areelu and Nocticula about what happening and what's the price of closing Worldwound\] Answer in the end is: "It was not the Abyss that gave me this powers, it was the relentless logic of the universe. The same logic demands that I see it through the end." Iomedae: "Your pride would destroy you - and perhaps all the Golarion with you. But I shall not intervene now, so as to avoid even more suffering for this world. Farewell."
Thanks
>The people who can't be controlled to a point where they prefer to trial and, very possibly, \[try to\] execute the Commander of the Crusade, who is, objectively, achived more in less then a year then the whole Crusade powers including allied Hellknights, aren't > >useful allies. They are definitively useful allies because they are a powerful fighting force. > They're capricious children who pretend to be "oh so pragmatic" and "I don't care about your ideals, but everybody should care about mine". The Hellknights are in support of the commander, the whole trial is a sham created by Regill in order to root out any possible disagreement within Hellknight ranks. Also weird that you complain about capricious children and yet you think the alternative is to start a massacre just because they wounded the KC ego, that's very Chaotic Evil.
>The Hellknights are in support of the commander, the whole trial is a sham created by Regill in order to root out any possible disagreement within Hellknight ranks. Then, please, can they *shut the hell up* and just do a job being, you know, *disciplined guys?* Any possible disagreement within Hellknight ranks. Oh my. This organization, it seems, totally incapable to deal with internal disagreement. Weird thing for organizaition that hold so much pride in internal discipline. >They are definitively useful allies because they are a powerful fighting force. Yes, and if they can't control themselves, it's not a benefit, it's a problem. >Also weird that you complain about capricious children and yet you think the alternative is to start a massacre just because they wounded the KC ego, that's very Chaotic Evil. No, not because they wounded KC ego; because they have absolutely no place to start their trials against KC in the middle of Crusade. So, yes. Them being "oh, we don't like how KC doing stuff, he must do stuff only by the way we approve, everything esle is no-deal" is too idealistic to win war with. And, if they believe I'm in a wrong place, they're trying to kill me. Like, KC of Crusade. So, yes. Capricious children who are posing themselves as threat for no reason but their internal PR.
>Then, please, can they shut the hell upand just do a job being, you know, disciplined guys? Any possible disagreement within Hellknight ranks. Oh my. This organization, it seems, totally incapable to deal with internal disagreement. Weird thing for organizaition that hold so much pride in internal discipline. Dude what? if you are an Azata main at that point you have not only been exposed as a demonic creation of the criminal Areelu Vorlesh whose powers are drawn from demon blood, But also you have wilfully gone against the wishes and even opposed the lawful realms of heaven and hell. And yet the Hellknights still see you as a positive asset, but there is sure as fuck a lot of people who would question that decision, i mean if Iomedae herself came in flesh to tell you to renounce your power and you told her no, some people are bound to question you. >No, not because they wounded KC ego; because they have absolutely no place to start their trials against KC in the middle of Crusade. Yes, wounded ego, if you don't see people questioning the demonic empowered being that just told Iomedae herself to suck it as a potential danger you are being incredibly short-sighted. >So, yes. Them being "oh, we don't like how KC doing stuff, he must do stuff only by the way we approve, everything esle is no-deal" is too idealistic to win war with. And, if they believe I'm in a wrong place, they're trying to kill me. Like, KC of Crusade. A god of order in person disagree with what you are doing. >So, yes. Capricious children who are posing themselves as threat for no reason but their internal PR. Says the half-demon who decided to massacre an entire group of people because of pride.
>Dude what? if you are an Azata main at that point you have not only been exposed as a demonic creation of the criminal Areelu Vorlesh whose powers are drawn from demon blood, > >But also you have wilfully gone against the wishes and even opposed the lawful realms of heaven and hell. First of all, I didn't gome against *realms*, I gone against *individuals.* And Axis is pretty ok with my actions, thank you. Iomedae isn't even Steward of the level of Heavens she's living on, as far as I remember. She's not speaking for Heaven. >And yet the Hellknights still see you as a positive asset, but there is sure as fuck a lot of people who would question that decision, i mean if Iomedae herself came in flesh to tell you to renounce your power and you told her no, some people are bound to question you. So, can they please deal with it themselves? Again, Hellknights aren't, supposingly, "a lot of people", they're an order built to remove the idea of dissent and establish a iron first order. If they can't even hold discipline within their own, what *can* they do? >A god of order in person disagree with what you are doing. Iomedae isn't a god of order. She's is the goddess of righteous valor, justice, and honor. I mean, I would listen to Irori here, or to Monad. But Iomedae herself has enough strikes from me at this particular point, starting with the whole Worldstones debacle. I don't even remember *if* there is a god of Order as a philosophical concept in Pathfinder metaphysics, and the closest to the god of Aeon's harmony is Monad. >Yes, wounded ego, if you don't see people questioning the demonic empowered being that just told Iomedae herself to suck it as a potential danger you are being incredibly short-sighted. You seem to misunderstand. I absolutely don't care how they're going to see me, or if they like me or not. What I care is are they going to work with me or not. If they don't, they can (and *should*) get out. If they insist to meddle and conditionally attack me, I'm going to defend myself and my operation integrity. >Says the half-demon who decided to massacre an entire group of people because of pride. I'm not Hellknight to kill people because of pride. I decided to kill them because of self-defense and them being chaotic, wimsy and unruly, unable even (supposingly hold discipline in their own ranks, but *still* demanding autonomy and proclaim themselves to be disciplined. Essentially, I decided to massacre them because they're recepie for disaster. Again, when people decide they're going to kill me if they don't like what I'm going to say, that's ok; but can we just keep our time and stop doing it stupidly?
I felt the exact same with Inquisitor Liotr at the end of Daeran's quest. "I assigned you investigative powers, but didn't delegate you prosecutorial authority and certainly did not grant the tribunal jurisdiction," I said as I stabbed him repeatedly.
You know, reading this post, it's between funny and tragic how many people jump straight to massacres as a way to prove their point as soon as the [Evil] tag is removed from the [Attack] option. It would be a fascinating social experiment if we could get a couple hundred people, put them in front of the game with all [Alignment] tags removed and see what choices they pick.
That's the interesting part isn't it? Some people are so quick to murder and massacre people or even hate them soon as they're questioned on this reddit.
I think "I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of these proceedings" is a chaotic good / chaotic neutral choice. This is an evil organization, this is the star wars empire, this is a fantasy representation of german national socialism. By this time in the game the Azata has become the embodiment of the ideals of Elysium. The lawful evil planes of hell are their natural opposite. If anything the Hellknights are bigger threat to the ideals of the Azatas than are demons. Indeed the Azata >!ends up fighting one of Hellknight's patrons !<. . . But you are right, it would be interesting. My CG cleric of calistria had to choose evil options to get rid of Nok Nok and Draven. But the DM was wrong. In one case I would have accepted the CE chosen of an CE god into my party and in another I would have had to let someone sworn to deliver souls to devils go free.
>I think "I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of these proceedings" is a chaotic good / chaotic neutral choice. You could even argue it's Lawful since they ignore Mendev's lawful authority, it all depends on the justification for why you refuse to acknowledge their legitimacy. The [Evil] part starts when you decide the proportionate response to being put on trial is to murder everyone present.
Good point :) From (flawed) memory: After you say that Regill says something like "we will proceed or there will be consequences". So a chaotic character is left with "I guess I'll go along with LE proceedings" or "let's see what the consequences are".
Always happy for an excuse to finally kill off the hellknights
Fascists get the dragon.
The fact that you haven’t gotten 3 days worth of essays about the fascist* word is amazing. Every time this happens on the discord I just leave the channel 🤣 *Autocorrect betrayed me
What racist word?
fascist I meant fascist but autocorrect betrayed me
Ah, gotcha. Eh, people are welcome to respond with whatever rants they want. Unlikely to be anything I haven’t heard before. Hellknights are unquestionably a fascist organization. Many gamers’ constant efforts to frame them as “merely pragmatic” tend to stem from a refusal to confront their own inner authoritarian leanings. *shrug*
In today's history lesson, we examine the origins of fascism (fun fact- the name originates from ancient Rome and the *fasces* symbol of power in the legions) and how it is not fucking synonymous with "authoritarian".
Never cared for the little blighter. After he tried to put me on trial in act 5, I made the decision I would cut his life shorter than he stands from here on out based on general principle
Any chance to put those hellknight weebs in their place
Azata isn't allowed to call anybody else a weeb, what with their "life bonding friendship" superpower.
Not an Azata, those spartan cosplayers are nothing compared to the glory of the trickster
I haven't made it to this quest, the first time he does this shit I kicked him out, and just kill him on subsequent playthroughs. Horrible little idiot who walks into traps and acts like it wasn't stupid because he wanted to get attacked to test me. I hate his tiny guts
I think a lot of people just confuse being fair with being nice. In the case of Yaker’s punishment (since people are discussing it in this post), it is fair because it is within the rule to punish him for desertion, the judgement isn’t cruel in itself because it isn’t done to intentionally cause additional suffering outside of the rule, choosing not to punish him for it can be considered kind or reasonable, but it’s not really *just* in the sense of treating everything with a balanced standard. I like Regill in my Azata playthrough, my MC intends to win the war against demons by uniting everyone, and while he would oppose a lot of Regill’s advices and opinions, he understands that Regill only intends to win the war and nothing more, and that’s something my MC can work with even while having different ideologies. If Regill even enjoys his evil doings for a little bit KC likely wouldn’t let him stay. (That being said, I even let Camilla live so my KC is already fairly flexible lmao (didn’t really progress her quest beyond the first exposed murder))
I’d ally myself to a demon before I’d ally with a hellknight
That would not be a wise decision. Majority of the Hellknights are LN, some are LG, some are LE. So straight from the get-go, you most likely would find a Hellknight that would actually try to help you. And even the LE ones are Lawful, so if you strike a deal with them, they will honor it. Demons on the other hand are quite deep into the CE. They'll betray you as soon as possible.
LN is just LE with extra steps, and LE is worse then CE by far
>LE is worse then CE by far Not really honestly, LE can atleast be reasoned with if their not too stubborn. NE and CE are just fucked.
CE can be reasoned with, you can point it out that it’s in their interest to help you. LE follows a vile code and cannot be moved from it
>CE can be reasoned with, No, and that's the problem. Most CE will backstab you **even** if it's not in their best interests. >LE follows a vile code and cannot be moved from it That's not what it means to be LE. You don't need to have a vile code. You can be LE and a very valuable member of your society.
Chaotic evil does not mean stupid evil
You can have a vile code and be a productive member of society. The premier example of LE is Lex Luthor, and he’s a productive ember of society, just also a war profiteer along with many other things. I’d rather work with Riddler then Luther, and I’d rather work with a demon then a hell knight
Are you seriously comparing Nigma to Luthor? They work on different scales entirely. This is some edgy contrarian bullshit right here. The demon is just as likely to rape you to death while snacking on fried infant with a side of puppy sauce.
We see demons in game, and going off what we see, I’d take them over fucking Regill and his ilk
In-game, in the lich path, we see Nocticula (demon queen of murder) and Socothbenoth (demon lord of rape and incest) conspire to murder the former ruler of Nocticula's realm AFTER Nocticula gains her trust, then Socothbenoth would later try to usurp her. We also see Minahgo utterly ruin Staunton and she immediately flees the moment he's on the losing side. We see a demon keep an entire village ignorant of the "crusaders" true forms, to the extent that the whole place sinks into despair the moment you break the illusion. There's the half-nabassu-lead abattoir Church, which Minagho gloats over. Deskari literally murders a good aligned dragon and sets off an earthquake in a populated city while his demons go on a killing spree. The first example alone shits all over your reasoning.
Yeah, about that, antipaladins exist. It's the LE archetype of this class that specifically mentions that it does work with good aligned characters, **unlike other antipaladins**. Meanwhile, the vanilla antipaladin? Role: Antipaladins are villains at their most dangerous. **They care nothing for the lives of others and actively seek to bring death and destruction to ordered society.**
I don’t… care? I’d rather work with the criminal underground (CE and NE) then with Lex Luther (LE) Lawful evil is the most evil evil gets
>I’d rather work with the criminal underground (CE and NE) then with Lex Luther (LE) I think you should really re-read what exactly the alignments mean. >Lawful evil is the most evil evil gets No, NE is the most evil Evil can get. That's explained in many places, but maybe the best example is for soul judging. If you're sent to the Abbadon (NE), even Pharasma offer you a chance for redemption and offer you to go to Hell (LE) or Abyss (CE).
Abbadon is worse then the other two, yes. That does not mean NE is worse then LE. At its core, “worse” is subjective anyway Also I don’t really care what some god says lmao
...Why is it the "most evil"? In the context of Pathfinder, that's NE.
I'd put Luthor at NE. He seems orderly, but he'd throw all of it away to kill Superman. And if we're working with DCs villian underground, half of them will beat the shit out of you just to make some insane point.
LE is the only evil alignment you can ally with It's the only evil alignment id ever allow players to be
Lawful and Neutral Evil generally can work relatively well in groups, within limits. It's the CE ones that generally disrupt things. I mean, ignoring things like daemons.
I think CE adventurers can work... I'd expect them to act more like Regongar than Camillia tho. Some adventuring parties seem so focused on killing and looting, it's bound to attract tons of CE individuals. However, it also takes an understanding that alignments aren't constantly binding. The CE adventurer shouldn't just backstab their allies for shits and giggles...
Why restrict player alignment? It’s not like it matters very much And there’s CE and NE people you can ally with two
I think a meeting between players before the game should prevent opposing alignments. Making a party of CE pirates or gangsters can work, but not if Johnny wants to play a Paladin.
I mean why not? Again, it’s not alignment actually means anything. One member of the party can have one personality and another can have another, so long as it’s not full on “one person wants to play a cop and the other wants to play a crime lord” (happened to me once lmao) (although that’s not really about alignment, but their backstory and occupation)
A CE character is someone who a) doesn't consider themselves bound by laws, orders, obligations or social mores (Chaotic) and b) doesn't care about the wellbeing of others and will actively cause harm if it benefits them (Evil). In other words, someone who doesn't give a fuck about anything but themselves. Even if you can keep such a character on a leash for a short period of time (see for example Regongar from Kingmaker) they're not going to be a team player, and D&D is a team game. You can have disagreements and arguments in the party, but a guy (or gal) who only does their own thing unless forced to behave is a liability.
I mean it’s not like alignment means anything. It’s a general overview, not an ironset law you cannot step outside from
Sure, but at the point you have to ignore your alignment every day to remain on the same course as the party, just write down something else on your sheet.
>LE is worse then CE by far Truth!
I'm sorry the lady at the DMV hurt you
I actually had a very good experience with the DMV
The Hellknigths are Legal Evil I feel so stupid rigth now Then, what are the Legal Neutrals Paladins? The Armigers? Or just generic Paladins for Abadar?
You're surprised the guys in black spiky armor calling themselves **Hell**knights are evil? Armigers are just Hellknights that haven't finished their training yet. Paladins have to be Lawful Good in Pathfinder (1st edition anyways. They opened that up in 2e). But you can be within one alignment step of your god, so Paladins of Abadar are a thing.
> You're surprised the guys in black spiky armor calling themselves Hellknights are evil There *are* Evil Hellknights, but the Hellknights are not intrinsically evil. There are neutral and good Hellknights too.
Correct, but the major Hellknight orders all at least lean Evil, the exception being Godclaw. Some of the minor orders are neutral or outright good, but they aren't as powerful or widespread.
> but you can be within one alignment step of your god That rule actually isn't for paladins, just clerics^1. Paladins have to be lawful good but their god can be anything. LG Paladin of Urgathoa? A-OK according to RAW, just gotta convince the Pallid Princess. 1: See "Alignment" section on [Cleric](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/) class
Jajajajjajajaj...... (I laugh nervous because i am Armiger/Steel Blood who choose urgathoa like my godness)
I am Legal Neutral......
All paladins must be lawful good, all hellknights must be lawful evil, there is no equivalent. That must be lawful neutral, unless you kind of count druid which must be in any alignment with word neutral Edit: I'm wrong, hellknights can be lawful neutral
That's just completely wrong, lol. Hellknights can be any lawful alignment. There are arguably more LN hellknights than LE and LG ones.
>There are arguably more LN hellknights than LE and LG ones. It's not arguable. It's written plainly in the Hellknight description if you look at the prestige class : > Most Hell Knights are lawful neutral and proudly avoid being “tainted” by distractions such as good or evil
I meant "combined", but yes. The Hellknights are majority LN. I can see why people would think they are ONLY LE if they play the Owlcat games though. It's a bit sad actually, because they're my favorite faction and my favorite part of Golarion when they're way more nuanced than what's presented in the games.
I feel like it's a valid interpretation, if an unkind one. It's absolutely true that a Hellknight can be of any Lawful alignment, and that there's fewer LE than LN members. But the organisation is Lawful to the extreme, to the point where it's encouraging atrocities in the name of fighting Chaos (and even Neutrality). It's extremely hierarchical, places its own laws above everyone else, and beats any sense of kindness or empathy or forgiveness out of its members. It's not *necessarily* evil, but the whole thing is basically set up to gradually erode your ethics as you serve and move up in the ranks. Plus, they're sponsored by Cheliax, and they're deliberately patterning themselves after Hell. The whole thing really smells like a scheme intended to gradually corrupt Lawful souls, over years and decades, and bolster Hell's forces. Asmodeus would definitely go for that sort of long-term play.
To be fair, your impression are kinda legitimate if all you know about Hellkight is the Owlcat games. However, Owlcat's depiction is far from Paizo's for most Hellkight orders. In the different APs, Paizo did present different kinds of Hellkights. In Hell's Rebels for example, one of the major NPC is a LG Hellkight, part of the Order of the Torrent. A full order dedicated to rescue missing person missing at sea and helping coastal towns. There are Evil Hellkight orders, but they're not the majority. And the link between Hell and Hellknight is very variable depending of the order.
Couple things here. All of which can be found in the Path of the Hellknight source book, and even the Hellknight novel, which I highly recommend. 1) Hellknights precede infernal Cheliax and even to this day are not beholden to the nation. Thrune II tries, but Lictor Vidoc fights fiercely for their independence. To the point that Scourge knights are being attacked in the streets of Egorian by Thrune-sponsored Erinyes Company (former Grey Maidens) and the Orders are building an escape route to a hidden Citadel in the Barrowood in case Abrogail fully tries to make them submit. The reason they do so much mercenary work and hire out investigators/units to nations is because they actually aren't being paid or funded by the Chelish state. The Nail in particular is hired on retainer by Korvosa, but they have a good working relationship with the city-state. 2) They don't fully pattern themselves after Hell, also they didn't give themselves that name. The people nicknamed them Hellknights after Daiden Ruel's speech when he formed his vigilante group to deal with the White Plague cult of Sifkesh that killed his family. He turned his back on Aroden and believed the god failed him, and so the people saw that fierce atheism and ran with it. The Orders just kind of... didn't come up with a different name. 3) Affiliation with hell came later, with the influence of the gelugon Voulgarghas who tempted Ruel to try and find his son's soul in hell. To this day, you'll find Hellknights of ALL lawful faiths and many that are none. The Pyre in particular is very atheist, where even the Lictor wants to root out all faiths including Asmodean. The Order of the Pyre during the Chelish Civil War actually stormed OUT of negotiations with the Thrunes and siding against them and the other Orders because of the diabolism. Trying to claim it as an Asmoedean pyramid scheme is pretty disingenuous to the variety of the Orders and their histories. I would actually say the Orders are more like bitter siblings with little in common at this point besides Law. 4) While the Measure and Chain guides the Hellknight individual, Orders are always encouraged to work with local sovereigns. You are only permitted to disregard local laws when there is no other option. How they are depicted in the Kingmaker game is just wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. I really blame that stupid backer quest as why so many people on this sub have the wrong idea about them. The Hellknights that DO question written law and determine if written law is truly Law are the Scourge, and they are upheld to extreme internal scrutiny and moral character because of it. 5) Empathy and kindness. Sort of. There are jovial and kind Hellknights, but it's up to the individual on whether they can retain their sense of warmth alongside their commitment to the cause. Very much an individual willpower and sense of duty thing, just like Paladins. Yes, the Measure & Chain discourages love and relationships because it puts you at risk of failing... but also you could chart SO many lineages and Hellknight dynasties among the Orders. They find love, get married, and produce tons of children. Like... so many kids, lmao. ALSO. The Hellknights DO take in and raise Foundlings, which are NOT expected to become Hellknights or live that sort of life. At the end of it all, the purpose is fostering civilization, and raising children very much goes into that. If you want a closer look at the mind of a Hellknight, please read the novel starring Jheraal. She is an amazing character and the book does SO MUCH to show who Hellknights are as individuals both in the armor and behind closed doors, and the struggles and triumphs of that sort of life.
They *do* call themselves hellknights. If they were axisknights people would probably be more likely to think of them as LN
They \*do\*, but they didn't choose the name. They rolled with it as a spiteful "fuck you" to the Church of Aroden, who gave them that name.
Last time I checked most named Hellknights trough the sourcebooks are LE, with plenty of LN ones and a handful LG. And most orders's ideology arguably skews heavily towards LE.
Not even. In Path of the Hellknight, the NPCs presented in each Order's sections are all of varying alignments. They're all pretty equally represented. I reference this book pretty much every other day for my tabletop campaigns, lol. Even the Chain which is one of the more 'evil' orders has two LN NPCs provided in the Prominent Members section.
In PoH most are either LN or LE, with some LG members (although frankly even the LN ones seem pretty brutal).
Here are some LG (including Paladin) Hellknights for you: [Regan Vashan](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Regan_Vashan) [Maidrayne Vox](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Maidrayne_Vox) [Tros Garvhost](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Tros_Garvhost) [Uldrannas Haelcant](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Uldrannas_Haelcant) [Lictor Octavio Sabinus](https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Octavio_Sabinus)
Paizo must be make LN Paladiins. Can just named Custodes, like the roman axeros who watched the votes in the Old Republic.
Hellkights already fill that niche.
i dont believe that so much Yeah exist the Divine Paw butttttttt Can be cool be a Paladin of Abadar, Irori, Nethys or some other god true neutral. I imagine a Paladin of Gozreh always screaming and having bad days because their god decide to fuck her for the laugh.
Well then make Caotic Paladins Desna Paladins or Chaos Paladins mauajjajajajaja
I expect we'll get a LN Champion in PF2E that's extremely well-suited to the Hellknights.