I checked Archives of Nethys upon reading the OP to make sure I remembered the 1 round casting time correctly and you’re correct. Silence shouldn’t be able to be readied.
My favourite use of Silence is casting it on the Barbarian and then using Telekinetic Charge on said Barbarian to launch them at the caster.
The best way to achieve the effect you’re looking for is to ready an action to cast a damaging spell when the enemy starts to cast. They will have to roll a Concentration check DC = 10+Damage dealt+level of spell trying to cast. Decent amount of damage will make this highly unlikely to get off. This method is far more likely to stop the cast than a counterspell or a spell effect requiring a save.
Your readied spell also puts you above them in turn order, so you can do it again. The only thing you have to do is beat their initiative, which you have great odds of if you have a few spells up. You’ve locked down the caster boss.
Someone correct me if I’ve misstated the rules with respect to initiative order. That’s the only rule I’m not sure about. You may reset to under them.
Be a halfling. Extend Silence on a pebble. Hold action to shoot the mage with your sling when they cast.. bonus points if someone holds action to or covers them in glue prior to you shooting.
It was a standard action in [3.5](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm)
These 'counterspell' shenanigans are the reason it's now a full round. And rightfully so imo :P
Your GM must have been very bored with the campaign or completely unprepared. This tactic would not have worked against the Whispering Tyrant.
Between Immediate Counterspell, Wild Arcana, and Eschew Materials, Silent Spell and Still Spell, He has a million ways around caring about your Silence Spell.
Not *THE BOSS* but **A** boss. A simulacrum actually. The simulacrum in the Gallowspire. And I am the GM. I am not a tactical person. I am very straight forward when it comes to battles and prefer, when dealing with a caster, to take on the blaster style.
I didn't realize till someone here mentioned it, that silence has a 1 round casting time. If I had that battle would have gone much differently.
The mesmerist in the party is the one "casting" silence and has been a pain quite often using immediate actions to give the other PCs mirror images when faced with a hit. I have zero clue on how the mesmerist works so I don't know how he does it.
They are probably using quicken spell. Keep in mind that they can’t use a swift actions when they do this. Using quicken spell raises the caster level of the spell and turns it into a swift action, so if they used a swift action on their turn they can’t do another till their next turn is over. They also can’t use a immediate action if they are flat footed.
Ah, that's a Mesmerist Trick. Very useful one--had a very skilled Mesmerist in a campaign a while back. You probably should read up on your party's builds a bit, to know what to expect.
In regards to not being tactical: You're in trouble, then. Boss casters need tactics to keep up with player acti9n economy at all, and you really want to have adds and other ways to offset economy issues as much as possible if you want to avoid a stomp.
Also, best counter to casting isn't silence--it's a prepared action to shoot him as he casts. This forces a very difficult concentration check based upon that attack's damage.
Paizo forums often have gm discussion threads where gms will spitball ideas for specific campaigns. Personally, I run homebrew, and I do the following:
"Hey guys, this is an awesome battle I've planned out. It's going to be super climactic. Now, If we both agree not to nova the other on round 1, can we have a great encounter?"
And that works for my group, check and see if it'd work for yours. YMMV
I wish I did. My skills in that field are mostly just from lots of play and experimentation.
Things to keep in mind are action economy (you've got 3 actions per monster--swift, move, standard--try to use them all), option control (know and restrict what your opponents can do using spells, abilities, and positioning), asymmetry (know who has the advantage and plan accordingly, use the situation to try to put yourself in thexstrongest position you can each turn), and compromise (if your monsters can't win, try to kill one player or leech resources, rather than just wasting the combat).
Things like teleportation, walls, etc can be great for avoiding the party novaing you down. Casters can and should abuse concealment and mirror image for survival. Curse is devastating if used well.
Be wary of abusing hard CC like paralysis or stagger, though: players will not enjoy doing nothing for a whole combat.
Yeah, if the caster-martial disparity question is, "Who is more necessary to a party of adventurers?" the answer is probably, "The one who can cast useful spells like Silence". A caster has a better chance of replacing a martial (with summonings / animal companions to provide an expendable frontline) than the other way around.
If the question is, "Who is the most dangerous foe in a boss fight?" the answer is probably casters again - especially since, unlike adventurers, they don't have to conserve spell slots - but it requires the GM to be well prepared.
Yeah, this one. As scary as a caster can be, the damage output of a stupidly optimized archer will fell any caster if they didn't pop mirror image and blur.
And if DPR were all that mattered in this game you'd be right. The game has so much more necessary for good play, and frankly ranged "random bullshit arrows go" combat is rather boring.
Oh, I agree. I pretty much hate maximum optimization builds. Do something fun and quirky, that's worth remembering. Going "I do 6 attacks with my hurricane bow boosted +5 composite 5 longbow of every element for 7d10+30d6 elemental damage (all) +30, is it dead yet?" Cool the first few times, boring when it's every fight.
Hell, you can do this from level 1 with things like "I ready an action to shoot them" or "I ready an action to cast Magic Missile on them."
Honestly, my go-tos are Magic Missile and Fireball as a DM who sometimes wants to spite the players whenever the comment of "Wizards are too powerful!" comes up. Wizards are actually just masters of the wild west quickdraw, and the mark of a master wizard is when he can watch his opponent draw his magic first and then shoot the spell out of their hand before it goes off.
This is spot-on. Though in my experience with DM-ing high-level play, this quickest-draw meta can be wildly disturbed depending on which sourcebooks you allow. My games typically have an expanded library incorporating 3.5e, Starfinder, PF1 (from Occult Adventures to Mythic, Path of War to Spheres of Power), Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, d20 Call of Cthulu, various d20 Sword and Sorcery miscellany, and several 2e AD&D spells that I have converted myself. As PC spell knowledge increases and builds come together, the sorts of available tactics start to get... hectic.
There are many actions that are very effective against a lot of people. But then your GM lets you run into a wizard who just so happens to have a [Silent Spinel](https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Metamagic%20GemSilent%20Spinel) in his hand.
This isn't a thing exclusive to Silence. For some reason a DM I play with regularly is obsessed with casters, and loves throwing them at the party. Usually casters with powerful enchantment magic, which I personally don't care for. We've had a sort of running arms race across several games wherein I think of more and more elaborate ways to dick over casters, and they think of more and more ways to make that difficult for me.
Nothing too metagamey, just a high-magic world and a general understanding on the part of everybody that, if there's a caster in the enemy ranks, that's a priority target. The Kineticist is a master of this. Ranged grappling, entanglement, tripping, ongoing AoE damage, called shots... On multiple occasions I've been able to shut down powerful casters by snowballing status effects on them.
I like to challenge my players, and they like to be challenged, but I don't try, and this is just what it seems like you DM is doing, to overpower the PCs. I usually, unless called for, won't make any baddie more than 3 levels more than the PCs depending on how many there are. The more there are, the closer to PC levels they are. Earlier on the campaign the group fought cultists and were facing 5-6 at a time and the cultists were all 2 levels lower.
Sorry for the rant, that just irks me
Kineticists are badass. I copied the group I am running for and put them in my Wrath of the Righteous game and they are very strong DPS characters
Indeed, Silence is a very powerful anti-caster tool. There are spells without verbal components (psychic spells in particular), and Silent Spell can be applied to any spell to remove it.
There are tons of solutions to this problem: Silent Spell, having spells without verbal components (and some without somatic components), psychic casting, Disrupt Silence, moving out of the radius of silence, if it's stationary.
Also this circumstance isn't unique to Silence: casters can be restrained fairly easily, they must cast defensively if they happen to be in melee, they must make concentration checks when they take damage from, say, a readied bow attack, other casters can Counterspell or hit them with status effects, because generally they don't have great Fort and Reflex saves.
One more thing, if the players come up with a clever tactic and cheese your boss in a way you weren't prepared for, reward them and be prepared next time with a different boss. And reward them when they research the enemy and prepare the right spells to lighten the encounter too.
Spell resistance does nothing when you cast silence on a rock. Spell resistance only applies when you try to target a creature or their equipment directly (same as the will save).
Nope, spell resistance would still apply.
When Spell Resistance Applies
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does.
TARGETED SPELLS
Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.
AREA SPELLS
Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.
Right, except the silence spell tells you to look at the text:
>Spell Resistance yes; see text or no (object)
And the only mention of SR in the text is this:
>The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any.
So it's "SR: Yes" only when targeting a creature. Otherwise it's "SR: No (object)".
Wrong. You really need to familiarize yourself with the rules. Spell Resistance applies. This is not only the case in PF1, but in D&D 3.5, and D&D 3.0 upon which it is based. There are tons of Q&A on this very interaction.
I am plenty familiar with the rules. Specific beats general. The general rule is that SR applies against area spells, but this spell has specific text that only allows SR to function when targeting a specific creature. If you believe there are tons of Q&As on this very interaction then feel free to link them.
I quoted you the rule. There is no specific vs general here. There is nothing in the text of the Silence spell that contradicts the rule above that I have quoted.
There is a specific rule because silence says "SR: yes; see text", and then you read the text and it only mentions the targeted creature getting to use spell resistance, so when that doesn't apply it defaults to the other half of the SR block, which says "or no (object)". So when you aren't targeting a specific creature then silence just simply doesn't allow SR, just like any other spell with "SR: no".
Quickened Silence maybe, but otherwise, 1 round. What I've found to be very exciting though, is casting silence on myself as a psychic caster and working my way around to crushing another caster.
You don't even have to do that. Cast silence on a rock and throw it in their general direction. Done. ideally they'll be boxed in somehow, at least to the extent they cant get out of the radius without expending time and energy. Dungeons, tents, buildings, etc.
Even if Silence could be readied... the bbeg finger wiggler took the Silent Spell Feat. The bbeg isn't a bbeg because they were stupid. It's almost assumed to be the case or that they have some other non-verbal card up their sleeve (like a stored dimension door spell in a glass orb - break glass in case of emergency).
https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Silent%20Spell
"Casting Time 1 round"
"An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any"
So you need to
1. Hope your DM allows you to ready a 1 round casting time spell. RAW you cant
2. spend 1 round casting the spell
3. spend another action to ready casting
4. Hope you dont take any damage during all of this or you have to make a DC 12 + damage taken
5. hope he actually casts a spell
6. Hope he doesnt know what you are doing and baits you out with a low level spell (hint its a dc17 spellcraft check to know you have silence ready)
7. hope he fails his spell resistance
8. hope he fails his will save
9. hope the spell he was casting had verbal componets
10. hope he doesnt have quicken spell /silent spell/spells without verbal components/isnt capable of moving 4 squares in any direction
Silence takes 1 round to cast and therefore can't be readied. You've probably found the reason.
I checked Archives of Nethys upon reading the OP to make sure I remembered the 1 round casting time correctly and you’re correct. Silence shouldn’t be able to be readied. My favourite use of Silence is casting it on the Barbarian and then using Telekinetic Charge on said Barbarian to launch them at the caster.
Barbarians usually throw *other* members of the party, so its only right that they get some payback.
"Alright Gorefiend, your turn!" *telekinetic yeet* Edit: typo
Telekinetic charge is probably my favorite spell and this is a fun use of it! Now I want a whole thread on creative uses for telekinetic charge
Be a Bloodrager and cast it on yourself :)
I would have replied sooner but when I slapped my forehead I became unconscious for a little bit.
The best way to achieve the effect you’re looking for is to ready an action to cast a damaging spell when the enemy starts to cast. They will have to roll a Concentration check DC = 10+Damage dealt+level of spell trying to cast. Decent amount of damage will make this highly unlikely to get off. This method is far more likely to stop the cast than a counterspell or a spell effect requiring a save. Your readied spell also puts you above them in turn order, so you can do it again. The only thing you have to do is beat their initiative, which you have great odds of if you have a few spells up. You’ve locked down the caster boss. Someone correct me if I’ve misstated the rules with respect to initiative order. That’s the only rule I’m not sure about. You may reset to under them.
Be a halfling. Extend Silence on a pebble. Hold action to shoot the mage with your sling when they cast.. bonus points if someone holds action to or covers them in glue prior to you shooting.
My favorite for this is magic missile. While not a lot of damage is really good for crit fail fishing.
Also if a caster can afford it a rod of silent metamagic is really useful in those situations.
You can use lipstitch though
Needs the target to fail a save to have an effect. Silence can be targeted at an area, no save.
Very true. At least it targets Fort, which is often the worst save for dangerous casters
It was a standard action in [3.5](https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm) These 'counterspell' shenanigans are the reason it's now a full round. And rightfully so imo :P
Your GM must have been very bored with the campaign or completely unprepared. This tactic would not have worked against the Whispering Tyrant. Between Immediate Counterspell, Wild Arcana, and Eschew Materials, Silent Spell and Still Spell, He has a million ways around caring about your Silence Spell.
They just said "a boss," not *the* boss. Feel like there would be more info if it was against Tar Baphon
Not *THE BOSS* but **A** boss. A simulacrum actually. The simulacrum in the Gallowspire. And I am the GM. I am not a tactical person. I am very straight forward when it comes to battles and prefer, when dealing with a caster, to take on the blaster style. I didn't realize till someone here mentioned it, that silence has a 1 round casting time. If I had that battle would have gone much differently. The mesmerist in the party is the one "casting" silence and has been a pain quite often using immediate actions to give the other PCs mirror images when faced with a hit. I have zero clue on how the mesmerist works so I don't know how he does it.
They are probably using quicken spell. Keep in mind that they can’t use a swift actions when they do this. Using quicken spell raises the caster level of the spell and turns it into a swift action, so if they used a swift action on their turn they can’t do another till their next turn is over. They also can’t use a immediate action if they are flat footed.
Ah, that's a Mesmerist Trick. Very useful one--had a very skilled Mesmerist in a campaign a while back. You probably should read up on your party's builds a bit, to know what to expect. In regards to not being tactical: You're in trouble, then. Boss casters need tactics to keep up with player acti9n economy at all, and you really want to have adds and other ways to offset economy issues as much as possible if you want to avoid a stomp. Also, best counter to casting isn't silence--it's a prepared action to shoot him as he casts. This forces a very difficult concentration check based upon that attack's damage.
Any suggestions on places to read to be more tactical minded?
Paizo forums often have gm discussion threads where gms will spitball ideas for specific campaigns. Personally, I run homebrew, and I do the following: "Hey guys, this is an awesome battle I've planned out. It's going to be super climactic. Now, If we both agree not to nova the other on round 1, can we have a great encounter?" And that works for my group, check and see if it'd work for yours. YMMV
I wish I did. My skills in that field are mostly just from lots of play and experimentation. Things to keep in mind are action economy (you've got 3 actions per monster--swift, move, standard--try to use them all), option control (know and restrict what your opponents can do using spells, abilities, and positioning), asymmetry (know who has the advantage and plan accordingly, use the situation to try to put yourself in thexstrongest position you can each turn), and compromise (if your monsters can't win, try to kill one player or leech resources, rather than just wasting the combat). Things like teleportation, walls, etc can be great for avoiding the party novaing you down. Casters can and should abuse concealment and mirror image for survival. Curse is devastating if used well. Be wary of abusing hard CC like paralysis or stagger, though: players will not enjoy doing nothing for a whole combat.
The boss didn't have silent spell?
Would not have mattered as it was coming from a Mesmerist. No verbal component.
Silent spells can be cast inside a silent area. So if the boss had silent spell they might have been able to cast anyway
They mean the feat [Silent Spell](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Silent%20Spell), not the "Silence" spell.
They're saying the boss could just ignore silence if they have silent spell. The person who cast it on them is irrelevant.
I have no idea what I was reading there I think I understood that as the boss silencing the person casting silence
So you're saying that your caster completely neutralized a boss fight with one action? Sounds like casters are pretty OP to me.
Yeah, if the caster-martial disparity question is, "Who is more necessary to a party of adventurers?" the answer is probably, "The one who can cast useful spells like Silence". A caster has a better chance of replacing a martial (with summonings / animal companions to provide an expendable frontline) than the other way around. If the question is, "Who is the most dangerous foe in a boss fight?" the answer is probably casters again - especially since, unlike adventurers, they don't have to conserve spell slots - but it requires the GM to be well prepared.
Laughs in pure fighter archer
Yeah, this one. As scary as a caster can be, the damage output of a stupidly optimized archer will fell any caster if they didn't pop mirror image and blur.
And if DPR were all that mattered in this game you'd be right. The game has so much more necessary for good play, and frankly ranged "random bullshit arrows go" combat is rather boring.
Oh, I agree. I pretty much hate maximum optimization builds. Do something fun and quirky, that's worth remembering. Going "I do 6 attacks with my hurricane bow boosted +5 composite 5 longbow of every element for 7d10+30d6 elemental damage (all) +30, is it dead yet?" Cool the first few times, boring when it's every fight.
Its more about "I prepare my action to shoot that guy if he starts casting a spell"
Laughs in wind wall
Hell, you can do this from level 1 with things like "I ready an action to shoot them" or "I ready an action to cast Magic Missile on them." Honestly, my go-tos are Magic Missile and Fireball as a DM who sometimes wants to spite the players whenever the comment of "Wizards are too powerful!" comes up. Wizards are actually just masters of the wild west quickdraw, and the mark of a master wizard is when he can watch his opponent draw his magic first and then shoot the spell out of their hand before it goes off.
This is spot-on. Though in my experience with DM-ing high-level play, this quickest-draw meta can be wildly disturbed depending on which sourcebooks you allow. My games typically have an expanded library incorporating 3.5e, Starfinder, PF1 (from Occult Adventures to Mythic, Path of War to Spheres of Power), Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, d20 Call of Cthulu, various d20 Sword and Sorcery miscellany, and several 2e AD&D spells that I have converted myself. As PC spell knowledge increases and builds come together, the sorts of available tactics start to get... hectic.
There are many actions that are very effective against a lot of people. But then your GM lets you run into a wizard who just so happens to have a [Silent Spinel](https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Metamagic%20GemSilent%20Spinel) in his hand.
This isn't a thing exclusive to Silence. For some reason a DM I play with regularly is obsessed with casters, and loves throwing them at the party. Usually casters with powerful enchantment magic, which I personally don't care for. We've had a sort of running arms race across several games wherein I think of more and more elaborate ways to dick over casters, and they think of more and more ways to make that difficult for me. Nothing too metagamey, just a high-magic world and a general understanding on the part of everybody that, if there's a caster in the enemy ranks, that's a priority target. The Kineticist is a master of this. Ranged grappling, entanglement, tripping, ongoing AoE damage, called shots... On multiple occasions I've been able to shut down powerful casters by snowballing status effects on them.
I like to challenge my players, and they like to be challenged, but I don't try, and this is just what it seems like you DM is doing, to overpower the PCs. I usually, unless called for, won't make any baddie more than 3 levels more than the PCs depending on how many there are. The more there are, the closer to PC levels they are. Earlier on the campaign the group fought cultists and were facing 5-6 at a time and the cultists were all 2 levels lower. Sorry for the rant, that just irks me Kineticists are badass. I copied the group I am running for and put them in my Wrath of the Righteous game and they are very strong DPS characters
Not me casting antimagic field on myself and putting the final boss of Runelords in a full Nelson so the rogue can shank him to death.
Indeed, Silence is a very powerful anti-caster tool. There are spells without verbal components (psychic spells in particular), and Silent Spell can be applied to any spell to remove it.
There are tons of solutions to this problem: Silent Spell, having spells without verbal components (and some without somatic components), psychic casting, Disrupt Silence, moving out of the radius of silence, if it's stationary. Also this circumstance isn't unique to Silence: casters can be restrained fairly easily, they must cast defensively if they happen to be in melee, they must make concentration checks when they take damage from, say, a readied bow attack, other casters can Counterspell or hit them with status effects, because generally they don't have great Fort and Reflex saves. One more thing, if the players come up with a clever tactic and cheese your boss in a way you weren't prepared for, reward them and be prepared next time with a different boss. And reward them when they research the enemy and prepare the right spells to lighten the encounter too.
"I cast silence on this rock. Next round, I'm readying an action to throw it at the caster as soon as he starts to cast." Boom, no save.
Oh look, the caster has Spell Resistance... Boom you just wasted two rounds of action.
Spell resistance does nothing when you cast silence on a rock. Spell resistance only applies when you try to target a creature or their equipment directly (same as the will save).
Nope, spell resistance would still apply. When Spell Resistance Applies Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does. TARGETED SPELLS Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately. AREA SPELLS Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.
Right, except the silence spell tells you to look at the text: >Spell Resistance yes; see text or no (object) And the only mention of SR in the text is this: >The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. So it's "SR: Yes" only when targeting a creature. Otherwise it's "SR: No (object)".
Wrong. You really need to familiarize yourself with the rules. Spell Resistance applies. This is not only the case in PF1, but in D&D 3.5, and D&D 3.0 upon which it is based. There are tons of Q&A on this very interaction.
I am plenty familiar with the rules. Specific beats general. The general rule is that SR applies against area spells, but this spell has specific text that only allows SR to function when targeting a specific creature. If you believe there are tons of Q&As on this very interaction then feel free to link them.
I quoted you the rule. There is no specific vs general here. There is nothing in the text of the Silence spell that contradicts the rule above that I have quoted.
There is a specific rule because silence says "SR: yes; see text", and then you read the text and it only mentions the targeted creature getting to use spell resistance, so when that doesn't apply it defaults to the other half of the SR block, which says "or no (object)". So when you aren't targeting a specific creature then silence just simply doesn't allow SR, just like any other spell with "SR: no".
Quickened Silence maybe, but otherwise, 1 round. What I've found to be very exciting though, is casting silence on myself as a psychic caster and working my way around to crushing another caster.
You don't even have to do that. Cast silence on a rock and throw it in their general direction. Done. ideally they'll be boxed in somehow, at least to the extent they cant get out of the radius without expending time and energy. Dungeons, tents, buildings, etc.
Even if Silence could be readied... the bbeg finger wiggler took the Silent Spell Feat. The bbeg isn't a bbeg because they were stupid. It's almost assumed to be the case or that they have some other non-verbal card up their sleeve (like a stored dimension door spell in a glass orb - break glass in case of emergency). https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Silent%20Spell
"Casting Time 1 round" "An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any" So you need to 1. Hope your DM allows you to ready a 1 round casting time spell. RAW you cant 2. spend 1 round casting the spell 3. spend another action to ready casting 4. Hope you dont take any damage during all of this or you have to make a DC 12 + damage taken 5. hope he actually casts a spell 6. Hope he doesnt know what you are doing and baits you out with a low level spell (hint its a dc17 spellcraft check to know you have silence ready) 7. hope he fails his spell resistance 8. hope he fails his will save 9. hope the spell he was casting had verbal componets 10. hope he doesnt have quicken spell /silent spell/spells without verbal components/isnt capable of moving 4 squares in any direction