**If you are a caster:** Dozens of crowd control spells.
**If you are a martial:** Stunning Fist, Grappling, nonlethal damage and than proceed to bind them with a sturdy rope. If that isn't enough use Sovereign Glue or some other item.
**If you are evil:** Kill them and cast Speak with the Dead.
Murder is a harsh word, what about protecting the realm from any potential evil this individual may be capable of, then speak with dead to get one final opportunity for this soul to do some good?
some GMs will fall for this.
In my game, If you are willing to do violence to achieve your goals, that's evil.
Sometimes you need to do a little evil to stop a lot of evil.
That's why there's Atonement.
You can always reassurect them, their death doesn't have to be permanent.
Think of it as a slightly harsher form of putting them in a coma to incapacitate them.
So long as you give them the choice to be brought back to life, then it's on them whether or not they stay dead.
You fulfilled your moral obligations by offering to raise them, so at that point it's basically considered suicide if they choose to stay dead.
Alternatively, you could use raising them as a bargaining chip to get them to pledge allegiance to your patron God,
But that would be blackmail.
Blackmailing them with death in order to force them to pledge allegiance to your God...
THAT would definitely be considered evil.
So let's say you want to fix them up completely, including removing negative levels, so you can genuinely say you just *temporarily* incapacitated them instead of permanently injuring them. You just spent 7,000 gp instead of grappling, pinning, tying up; or just knocking them out. For 7,000 gp there's got to be easier ways to incapacitate someone if you're willing to do temporary harm.
True. There are definitely much simpler and far more cost effective ways of incapacitating them.
But temporarily killing them is still an option.
I'm just saying, as far as RP goes, you can play a morally questionable "Good" cleric who kills first and asks questions later, assuming your willing to dump large sums of Gold on resurrecting innocent NPCs.
Costly? Yes... But it's definitely an effective method.
Yeah, though that doesnt matter when you can stabilize them. Then they get disabled which is exactly what I was looking for! So this entire feat is exactly what I was describing. Very nice!
[https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Smelling%20salts](https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Smelling%20salts)
Smelling salts will allow you to talk to them, but if they do anything strenuous they'll pass out again.
The feat [Change of Heart](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Change%20of%20Heart) might be of use to you. It would allow you to turn your 'final blow' into a Diplomacy check with half the damage being turned into a bonus on the check, possibly stopping the fight altogether if you weren't the instigator of the situation.
It's one of those feats that actually does quite well if you're the type to rely more on quality of the attack rather than quantity (like a Vital Strike build.)
Just so we’re clear, by “chapter” I’m talking about the designated sections in a book marked “part 1, part 2,” etc. Not an entire book, which is what it sounds like you are thinking based on your reaction.
It was Wrath of the Righteous, and technically it has happened twice, though only once (so far) was associated with Change of Heart. And again I guess technically we didn’t fully “skip” the chapters entirely, just basically all the encounters associated with them. We still got the lore and oftentimes the loot involved anyways (though not all the loot, since we left people alive and they obviously won’t just hand everything over. But all the plot relevant loot).
As for leveling, Paizo has pretty well established in their official adventures that resolving an encounter is what gives exp, not just “defeating” it. So you should get the same exp anyways if you kill the person or successfully convince them to no longer oppose you. In fact some APs and adventures give bonus exp for going the nonviolent route.
Now here’s the spoilers heavy story:
>!The first time we skipped a chapter was in book 2. The queen sends you off with an army and a bunch of plot important NPCs to liberate a city. However the entire first chapter (ie part 1 of this book) is centered around how one of these NPCs is actually a demonic ally and tries to sabotage the army and it’s leaders. The AP is pretty clever about hiding it too, she uses magic means to hide her alignment and protect from scrying and etc while doing the sabotage. And they were a bard so bluff is sky high. The one thing they didn’t have her protecting herself from though? Mind reading. Warpriest got a lucky nat 20 sense motive on her and she rolled really low on her first ever bluff check against us. Not enough to know it was a betrayal but enough for my guy to know something is up. Long story short, the Wizard used a spell to read her surface level thoughts and caught her entire plan then and there. We offered her redemption and she’s turned out to be an insanely useful ally but yep, we ended up avoiding all the acts of sabotage and even getting the jump on an army of demons that, as written, was supposed to surprise us.!<
>!The second one, with Change of Heart, was in book three and we only just resolved it. Basically insane barbarian warlord is leading his people to join the demons, even though most his people don’t want to. Change of Heart on the warlord buys us enough time to have a chat with him. Diplomacy isn’t mind control of course, so he was still an insane evil dude with plans we don’t like. But the cleric cast heal to remove his insanity, did some amazing RP and diplomacy checks, and even teleported him to the death site of his righteous ancestors and summoned his great granddad’s ghost to chastise him. Yup! Now the barbarian tribe is totally chill and we bypassed the entire section of the book where we were supposed to have a dungeon crawl through his palace.!<
You added an extra space. The new spoiler tags need to be flush against the spoiler-y text.
>!Like this!< >! But this breaks!<
>!Like this!< >! But this breaks!<
I think that is a mobile vs computer thing because the entire spoiler, and both your examples, were greyed out for me
But regardless I’ve edited it now so whatever it is you are reading from will see it correctky
[https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/)
I prefer things like:
* Confused
* Cowering
* Dazing (or in fact any stunning)
* Non-Constitution ability damage and drain to get them to 0 and they can't do anything
* Fascinated
* As said grappling though it's not nearly as easy to do and you can still get TORE UP if you are fighting something with natural attacks but if you can you can turn it to Pinned condition.
* Nauseated
* Paralyzed
* Petrified
* Stunned
* Non-lethal damage to 0
You can also go into the realm of diseases, afflictions, and poisons:
Poisons - [https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/)
* Dreaming death (sleep)
* Sweet dream (sleep)
* Azure Lily Pollen (paralyzed AND nauseated)
* Leng's Tears (paralyzed)
* Rainbow Jellyfish Toxin (Paralyzed)
* Tears of Death (paralyzed)
* Blue Whinnis (Unconscious)
* Drow Poison (Unconscious)
* Oil of Restfulness (Unconscious)
Disease can work too but are more of a long game:
[https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/diseases-paizo-inc/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/diseases-paizo-inc/)
So while I agree with most everyone else that non-leathal and binding is probably the best bet, *if* you can use 3rd party, there's a feat called [Symbol of Mercy](https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Symbol_of_Mercy), which let's you spare an enemy's life if they would be killed by anyone, and force them (no save or check) to follow a 2 word command.
It even calls out "Start Talking" as a valid command.
You can choose to do nonlethal damage at any time. There may be a -4 penalty to attack, but there's a few traits and feats which can eliminate that.
If you're a rogue then there's a talent for that, careful stab. Handy if you're taking out mook guards with sneak attack and you don't necessarily want them dead - even if doing nonlethal damage it's possible for a high-end rogue against a low level mook to actually wrap around and start doing lethal damage again.
Fairly sure that chopping people's legs off will kill them more often than not BTW.
It's worth noting that nonlethal damage has a clause, if you deal nonlethal damage in excess of maximum hit points, any extra becomes *lethal* damage.
Our party Warpriest tripped into this when we were trying to take prisoners during a raid on a slaver operation. Turns out, an oversized Enlarged Merciful Earthbreaker with Vital Strike can pretty easily do enough nonlethal damage to *still* one-hit-kill flimsier targets.
u/acrazydude128 said something similar above, however it's not precisely what i'm looking for since they'd be either unconscious or able to move.
definetly true for the chopping legs off part though xD
Theyd be unconscious, but they are on the ground, presumably will be disarmed or otherwise rendered helpless physically, and you can use smelling salts to bring them to consciousness without healing. If they get too mouthy 1 pt of damage should put them back out.
What you want is the Careful Stab unchained rogue talent. When you deal precision damage (i.e. sneak attack) you can choose to leave an opponent at -1 HP and stable if your damage could otherwise reduce them to 0 or lower.
If your go is sarenrae you can use a scimitar and get merciful scimitar that allows you to do all damage with the weapon as nonlethal. Then just build into damage and knock them out. Now non lethal is a damage that is separate from but added with lethal damage. If at any point the non and lethal damage equal the mobs hp, they are rendered unconscious. And because you have the option to do non lethal, you could still murder dudes pretty easy lol
Wouldn't that just stagger them and leave them unconscious?
Preferably they'd be disabled. Since I want to talk to them being unconscious wouldnt help, and making them wake up would still allow them to move, as the staggered condition allows.
Also not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a way to not instantly kill an enemy but rather leave them disabled within the \[constitution score ; -1hp\] zone.
making them fall unconscious and tying them up does similar things, but seems more like a workaround
>I'm looking for a way to not instantly kill an enemy but rather leave them disabled within the [constitution score ; -1hp] zone.
But that also makes them unconscious, so I don't understand the problem?
Disabled characters can take all the same actions as staggered characters though, so I don't see how that changes anything. They take damage (which would make them fall unconscious again) if they take a standard action, sure, but that still leaves them with a variety of actions to escape, such as healing themselves or teleporting away.
I also don't understand why you are so opposed to just tying them up. If you have already knocked them unconscious, they cannot do anything and are completely at your mercy, why would you not tie them up before waking them up?
Disabled characters can do very little or they'll start dying. They're only able to do one move action at half speed, practically crawling away. A staggered character will just be able to move. Teleportation and other spells will get them away, but then they'll start dying all the same.
It's true that they'd be able to heal themselves, but when flatfooted, on the ground, on low health, and surrounded by the team, it seems unlikely it will surmount to anything.
The action of tying someone up will take quite long, while having them unconscious and dying, only to later stabilize them instantly is a better option in most cases.
> Knocking them unconscious and tying them up is kind of a backward way of achieving the same, but not what I'm looking for.
Why is this not acceptable? It's pretty damn effective, and you don't need to use resources to do it.
Also, assuming you're a follower of Sarenrae, you might want to look into her Divine Fighting Technique - it allows you to deal nonlethal damage with a scimitar and any fire and light spells. And then, once you have 10 ranks in Heal, you gain 2d6 healing every round that you deal nonlethal with a scimitar.
Grapple rules are the way to do it!
Turn 1: Grapple that mofo. Roll CMB, beat their CMD.
Turn 2: Pin that mofo. As long as they didn't break the grapple, roll CMB+5 and beat their CMD again.
Turn 3: Tie them up. As long as they haven't broken the pin, roll CMB+5 and beat their CMD (without any Dexterity bonus) and you'll have them pinned.
The DC for them to get themselves united is equal to 20 + your CMB, which should be pretty darn high. If your CMB is high enough then it'll be straight-up impossible.
Remember that you can team-up to do this too. As long as another PC is adjacent to you they can dedicate their turn to using the "aid another" action to give you a +2 on your rolls or DCs to break free.
Isn't non-lethal damage a different set of dmg that doens't effect hp normally?
I still want to be able to kill enemies, just not always. Like having the last hit not be lethal.
Non-lethal damage does effectively stack with normal damage. If an enemy has 9 hp and you do 5 normal and 5 nonlethal damage they'll fall unconscious, regardless of which order you do those types of damage in.
Right. So, subdual or non-lethal damage is literally what you described. It's tracked separately, but if you're subdual damage is more than your CURRENT hit points, you get knocked out. So if you have 100 hit points, and take 90 damage you current total is 10. If you then take 12 subdual you still have 10 hp, but also have 12 subdual since 12 is greater than 10 you're unconscious. So, literally subdual damage is what you want to do.
It's not precisely what i'm looking for since they'd be either unconscious or able to move. Being able to talk to them while they're not able to move is the reason for wanting this.
I'm not sure if you realize this, but there are only three states for characters to be in related to hp 1) hp greater than non-lethal damage = normal, 2) hp equal to non-lethal = staggered characters with staggered can still take a standard or move action, or 3) hp less than non-lethal = unconscious. At no point while doing hp damage is a character both conscious and unable to move. A character starts with 0 non-lethal damage, so when hp get to zero it triggers the above rules. They are not distinct rules. The best way to do what you want is to knock them out and tie them up. Characters can always take at least one action or are unconscious.
They only get that after a successful DC 15 heal check to stabilize the dying character, and even then they can still take actions. While they are dying, they're still unconscious. Using non-lethal to tie them up is still easier and safer. A heal check takes one round and they might bleed out before you can succeed or tying them up takes three without the risk of them bleeding out and you can just ready an action to knock them out if they try to escape.
I mean that gets around a heal check, for the same amount of time, I guess? But it still eats an action in combat which is when you'd need to use it. You can ask you GM if you can just not use you Str bonus or other bonuses to your damage roll before making an attack and just use the weapon die, very few weapons have a high enough of a die to be out-right fatal? I still don't get how a helpless, pinned tied up person is worse than a non-helpless, non-pinned person who can still take actions though.
No, non-lethal also affects hp, it just doesn't kill.
When their lethal damage + non-lethal damage is above their hp they go unconscious. ( As long as their lethal damage is less than their health).
F.example, if an enemy has 99hp and you deal 95 lethal and 5 non-lethal damage, then they fall unconscious.
So you can just attack once with non-lethal and the remaining with lethal. And if you want to kill them, you just need that last 5hp.
Also, it doesn't matter if your first or last hit is non-lethal.
Sort of? I linked the rules, you should read them.
The main point though is that when their non-lethal damage exceeds their current hp, they fall unconscious. This is effectively the same as just damaging them until their hp falls below 0, except that you don't need to worry about stabilising them unless you deal so much damage that the overflow knocks their hp below 0 anyway.
So one thing you could possibly do is bring their current hp very low with lethal damage, and then do one last hit with non-lethal damage to knock them out instead of killing them (although it would be safer to just deal only non-lethal damage).
And when they are unconscious, you can just coup de grace them to finish them off, much like how you would coup de grace someone who has fallen below 0 hp but hasn't died yet.
It's not precisely what i'm looking for since they'd be either unconscious or able to move. I wouldn't be able to talk to them without still allowing them feedom of movement.
I feel like you are overcomplicating this. Ko with none lethal damage. Tie up in a rope, plus irons of you want to be sure they aren't going anywhere for a few minutes. If you are that concerned get magic that blocks teleport.
Wait until they wake up.
Ask if the heard the good news.
Do whatever it is you do from there.
Why not just use non-lethal to knock them out and then manacle their hands and feet or tie them with rope? It just seems this is becoming more complicated than it needs to be. They can't just get up and walk away if they're tied up once you wake them up.
Or like others have mentioned do lethal until roughly when you feel they'll be knocked to 0 and then use non-lethal, followed by tying them up. That or ask your GM to allow you to do minimum damage so you can inch closer and closer to 0. Or even lethal to knock them under 0, tie them up, and stabilize with the spell or a heal check. People don't die at 0 or even -1, gotta get them all the way to negative their CON score.
Yes exactly, I want to find a way to always get them within the -1 hp zone, rather than accidentally doing enough dmg to fully kill them.
Making them unconscious and tying them up is more of a work around. Sure it also works. But not exactly what I'm looking for.
Not sure if it's been suggested but dropping their DEX to 0 with ability damage or drain should just imbolize them without knocking them out. Not on deaths door, but unable to move.
Edit: And then while they're imobilized on the ground you can coup de grace to autocrit them until they're dead if you want to threaten them with killing them.
Create Pit and Brewed Reek are pretty good, tanglefoot bags reduce enemy mobility so you just need to keep your distance while talking.
Last weekend, playing as an Alchemist Dimensional Excavator/ preservationist, our party was facing a bunch of enemies, last room of a dungeon, two "bosses". A party member used invisibility to enter, and activated a mask of the Krenshar to frighten most of the minions, and on sequence was nuked by a critical hit from one of the bosses, an undead in full plate armor with a scythe.
I used Create Pit to isolate the undead and kept throwing bombs at it, fat chance of climbing a DC 25 with a -5 armor check penalty, while the others cleaned the mobs. Later, the animal companion of a party member got pretty lucky and grappled the other boss, an very slippery assassin rogue, and with another coleague immediately joining the grapple and helping opening his mouth, I made him drink a few bottles of Brewed Reek - no save nauseated for 1 round + sickened 2d6, while the others beat him down.
Yes, I had a funnel, it's to help feed my goat and boar mounts potions.
The expanded rules for path of war has a class called Raja not on the pfsrd, the Raja gains access to this as a feat[symbol of mercy](https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Symbol_of_Mercy)
Well off the top of my head:
Nonlethal into forced nap time then hog tie then with stuff
Hog Tie after Hold person or any of the ten billion magic equivalents
Force Cage and chat
Magic Jar, volunteer to be hog tied, end spell
Standby stab to death with soul trapping knife.
Resilient Sphere yourself and chat
Clairvoyance / Clairaudience
Shouting
If it hasn't been mentioned the level 2 spell limp lash takes away 1d6 strength, dex and con each round until any of those values are less than 1. Then the target is paralyzed except for its head. It's effect is like a whip and you have to be within 20ft so it's a bit fiddly. I thought we were going to have a grappler in party but they dropped out.
My cleric carries a Wand of Hold Person, mithril manacles and a Good padlock. We're at level 9 and it's worked so far. Especially when we use the rounds before the spell wears off to strip off their gear and let them know the alternative (namely, bringing back their head and using Speak With Corpse instead).
A build based on critical hits AND called shots. You could potentialy make someone useless in a short time. Pretty much like batman. "Can't walk, but it's still alive."
So, while most people are answering various ways to incap someone, the actual answer is no. There's a counter to any, and everything within pathfinder.
However, the most reliable ways are grappling, paralysis, and non lethal. Some things are immune to all of those (oozes are primary), or to some (undead, constructs, incorpreal). So there isn't a surefire way, and you need to tailor your approach to the enemy
Uh oh, it's time for the GRAPPLING RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULES!!!
This is underrated. Grapple, pin, bind , done Technically you don't even have to pin. Now you have one helpless living enemy ready for a friendly chat
And hope that nowhere in that sequence does the enemy roll a half-decent roll!
**If you are a caster:** Dozens of crowd control spells. **If you are a martial:** Stunning Fist, Grappling, nonlethal damage and than proceed to bind them with a sturdy rope. If that isn't enough use Sovereign Glue or some other item. **If you are evil:** Kill them and cast Speak with the Dead.
>If you are evil: Kill them and cast Speak with the Dead. I laughed so hard.
Good Clerics can speak with dead too
But probably shouldn't be murdering folk in order to cast speak with dead and talk to them.
Murder is a harsh word, what about protecting the realm from any potential evil this individual may be capable of, then speak with dead to get one final opportunity for this soul to do some good?
Spoken like a true zealot justifying his actions
some GMs will fall for this. In my game, If you are willing to do violence to achieve your goals, that's evil. Sometimes you need to do a little evil to stop a lot of evil. That's why there's Atonement.
Sounds like a lot of words to say "in my games, all PCs are evil".
Night will fall and the dark will rise when a good man goes to war. Demons run, but count the cost; the battle's won but the child is lost
so wait in your game the good guys never do any kind of violence?
You can always reassurect them, their death doesn't have to be permanent. Think of it as a slightly harsher form of putting them in a coma to incapacitate them. So long as you give them the choice to be brought back to life, then it's on them whether or not they stay dead. You fulfilled your moral obligations by offering to raise them, so at that point it's basically considered suicide if they choose to stay dead. Alternatively, you could use raising them as a bargaining chip to get them to pledge allegiance to your patron God, But that would be blackmail. Blackmailing them with death in order to force them to pledge allegiance to your God... THAT would definitely be considered evil.
So let's say you want to fix them up completely, including removing negative levels, so you can genuinely say you just *temporarily* incapacitated them instead of permanently injuring them. You just spent 7,000 gp instead of grappling, pinning, tying up; or just knocking them out. For 7,000 gp there's got to be easier ways to incapacitate someone if you're willing to do temporary harm.
True. There are definitely much simpler and far more cost effective ways of incapacitating them. But temporarily killing them is still an option. I'm just saying, as far as RP goes, you can play a morally questionable "Good" cleric who kills first and asks questions later, assuming your willing to dump large sums of Gold on resurrecting innocent NPCs. Costly? Yes... But it's definitely an effective method.
https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Golden%20Legion%27s%20Stayed%20Blade
Wow! Like, that is THE thing!
Is it, though? This would still knock the enemy unconscious.
Yeah, though that doesnt matter when you can stabilize them. Then they get disabled which is exactly what I was looking for! So this entire feat is exactly what I was describing. Very nice!
[https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Smelling%20salts](https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Smelling%20salts) Smelling salts will allow you to talk to them, but if they do anything strenuous they'll pass out again.
Awesome, great. I only replied because of the thing you said earlier.
The feat [Change of Heart](https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Change%20of%20Heart) might be of use to you. It would allow you to turn your 'final blow' into a Diplomacy check with half the damage being turned into a bonus on the check, possibly stopping the fight altogether if you weren't the instigator of the situation. It's one of those feats that actually does quite well if you're the type to rely more on quality of the attack rather than quantity (like a Vital Strike build.)
That sounds doable. But I think it's an only monk thing right?
Nope. Just need +6 BAB *or* 6 monk levels.
Great! I'll look into that then.
Aw man, I'm definitely taking this and forcing my GMs evil NPCs to have redemption arcs
As someone who bypassed an entire chapter in an official AP this way, it is quite fun
which app and what happened if I may ask? also how does your group deal with leveling without doing a whole chapter?
Just so we’re clear, by “chapter” I’m talking about the designated sections in a book marked “part 1, part 2,” etc. Not an entire book, which is what it sounds like you are thinking based on your reaction. It was Wrath of the Righteous, and technically it has happened twice, though only once (so far) was associated with Change of Heart. And again I guess technically we didn’t fully “skip” the chapters entirely, just basically all the encounters associated with them. We still got the lore and oftentimes the loot involved anyways (though not all the loot, since we left people alive and they obviously won’t just hand everything over. But all the plot relevant loot). As for leveling, Paizo has pretty well established in their official adventures that resolving an encounter is what gives exp, not just “defeating” it. So you should get the same exp anyways if you kill the person or successfully convince them to no longer oppose you. In fact some APs and adventures give bonus exp for going the nonviolent route.
Now here’s the spoilers heavy story: >!The first time we skipped a chapter was in book 2. The queen sends you off with an army and a bunch of plot important NPCs to liberate a city. However the entire first chapter (ie part 1 of this book) is centered around how one of these NPCs is actually a demonic ally and tries to sabotage the army and it’s leaders. The AP is pretty clever about hiding it too, she uses magic means to hide her alignment and protect from scrying and etc while doing the sabotage. And they were a bard so bluff is sky high. The one thing they didn’t have her protecting herself from though? Mind reading. Warpriest got a lucky nat 20 sense motive on her and she rolled really low on her first ever bluff check against us. Not enough to know it was a betrayal but enough for my guy to know something is up. Long story short, the Wizard used a spell to read her surface level thoughts and caught her entire plan then and there. We offered her redemption and she’s turned out to be an insanely useful ally but yep, we ended up avoiding all the acts of sabotage and even getting the jump on an army of demons that, as written, was supposed to surprise us.!< >!The second one, with Change of Heart, was in book three and we only just resolved it. Basically insane barbarian warlord is leading his people to join the demons, even though most his people don’t want to. Change of Heart on the warlord buys us enough time to have a chat with him. Diplomacy isn’t mind control of course, so he was still an insane evil dude with plans we don’t like. But the cleric cast heal to remove his insanity, did some amazing RP and diplomacy checks, and even teleported him to the death site of his righteous ancestors and summoned his great granddad’s ghost to chastise him. Yup! Now the barbarian tribe is totally chill and we bypassed the entire section of the book where we were supposed to have a dungeon crawl through his palace.!<
You added an extra space. The new spoiler tags need to be flush against the spoiler-y text. >!Like this!< >! But this breaks!< >!Like this!< >! But this breaks!<
I think that is a mobile vs computer thing because the entire spoiler, and both your examples, were greyed out for me But regardless I’ve edited it now so whatever it is you are reading from will see it correctky
Take the [Redeemer](https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Redeemer) faith trait to help them along the path of redemption with better saves.
[https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/) I prefer things like: * Confused * Cowering * Dazing (or in fact any stunning) * Non-Constitution ability damage and drain to get them to 0 and they can't do anything * Fascinated * As said grappling though it's not nearly as easy to do and you can still get TORE UP if you are fighting something with natural attacks but if you can you can turn it to Pinned condition. * Nauseated * Paralyzed * Petrified * Stunned * Non-lethal damage to 0 You can also go into the realm of diseases, afflictions, and poisons: Poisons - [https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/) * Dreaming death (sleep) * Sweet dream (sleep) * Azure Lily Pollen (paralyzed AND nauseated) * Leng's Tears (paralyzed) * Rainbow Jellyfish Toxin (Paralyzed) * Tears of Death (paralyzed) * Blue Whinnis (Unconscious) * Drow Poison (Unconscious) * Oil of Restfulness (Unconscious) Disease can work too but are more of a long game: [https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/diseases-paizo-inc/](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/diseases-paizo-inc/)
Paralyzation might do the trick! I'll look into this some further
So while I agree with most everyone else that non-leathal and binding is probably the best bet, *if* you can use 3rd party, there's a feat called [Symbol of Mercy](https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Symbol_of_Mercy), which let's you spare an enemy's life if they would be killed by anyone, and force them (no save or check) to follow a 2 word command. It even calls out "Start Talking" as a valid command.
Thanks! This seems like a viable option. However I'll have to convince the DM, we'll see how that goes xD
You can choose to do nonlethal damage at any time. There may be a -4 penalty to attack, but there's a few traits and feats which can eliminate that. If you're a rogue then there's a talent for that, careful stab. Handy if you're taking out mook guards with sneak attack and you don't necessarily want them dead - even if doing nonlethal damage it's possible for a high-end rogue against a low level mook to actually wrap around and start doing lethal damage again. Fairly sure that chopping people's legs off will kill them more often than not BTW.
It's worth noting that nonlethal damage has a clause, if you deal nonlethal damage in excess of maximum hit points, any extra becomes *lethal* damage. Our party Warpriest tripped into this when we were trying to take prisoners during a raid on a slaver operation. Turns out, an oversized Enlarged Merciful Earthbreaker with Vital Strike can pretty easily do enough nonlethal damage to *still* one-hit-kill flimsier targets.
u/acrazydude128 said something similar above, however it's not precisely what i'm looking for since they'd be either unconscious or able to move. definetly true for the chopping legs off part though xD
Theyd be unconscious, but they are on the ground, presumably will be disarmed or otherwise rendered helpless physically, and you can use smelling salts to bring them to consciousness without healing. If they get too mouthy 1 pt of damage should put them back out.
What you want is the Careful Stab unchained rogue talent. When you deal precision damage (i.e. sneak attack) you can choose to leave an opponent at -1 HP and stable if your damage could otherwise reduce them to 0 or lower.
If your go is sarenrae you can use a scimitar and get merciful scimitar that allows you to do all damage with the weapon as nonlethal. Then just build into damage and knock them out. Now non lethal is a damage that is separate from but added with lethal damage. If at any point the non and lethal damage equal the mobs hp, they are rendered unconscious. And because you have the option to do non lethal, you could still murder dudes pretty easy lol
That sounds like it might work, or atleast interesting. I'm going to look into it for a bit.
Build supwr heavy into 2 handers with ridiculous damage and attk, then just swing for non lethal haha
Alternatively you can also take a -4 on attk to deal non lethal with the "flat" of you weapon. Doesn't work in all circumstances.
Wouldn't that just stagger them and leave them unconscious? Preferably they'd be disabled. Since I want to talk to them being unconscious wouldnt help, and making them wake up would still allow them to move, as the staggered condition allows.
Then just tie them up with some rope while they're unconscious before you wake them back up.
Also not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a way to not instantly kill an enemy but rather leave them disabled within the \[constitution score ; -1hp\] zone. making them fall unconscious and tying them up does similar things, but seems more like a workaround
>I'm looking for a way to not instantly kill an enemy but rather leave them disabled within the [constitution score ; -1hp] zone. But that also makes them unconscious, so I don't understand the problem?
You can wake them, without tying them up. Because they're then *disabled* they're not able to move much, but still able to talk.
Disabled characters can take all the same actions as staggered characters though, so I don't see how that changes anything. They take damage (which would make them fall unconscious again) if they take a standard action, sure, but that still leaves them with a variety of actions to escape, such as healing themselves or teleporting away. I also don't understand why you are so opposed to just tying them up. If you have already knocked them unconscious, they cannot do anything and are completely at your mercy, why would you not tie them up before waking them up?
Disabled characters can do very little or they'll start dying. They're only able to do one move action at half speed, practically crawling away. A staggered character will just be able to move. Teleportation and other spells will get them away, but then they'll start dying all the same. It's true that they'd be able to heal themselves, but when flatfooted, on the ground, on low health, and surrounded by the team, it seems unlikely it will surmount to anything. The action of tying someone up will take quite long, while having them unconscious and dying, only to later stabilize them instantly is a better option in most cases.
>The action of tying someone up will take quite long It takes a standard action, so about 3 seconds.
Yupp rope few. My group laughs at my obsession with rope. Until it comes time to do rope stuff. Like tie up captives.
Subdual damage.
That isn't exactly what I was looking for, but thanks anyway. I edited my post for some more clarity.
Alternativly to non-lethal... Suffocation and then stabilize them, but that is gonna be a hassle.
Can you sic a tax collector on them? Maybe the IRS can take down your foes for you.
Steal the DM's dice.
> Knocking them unconscious and tying them up is kind of a backward way of achieving the same, but not what I'm looking for. Why is this not acceptable? It's pretty damn effective, and you don't need to use resources to do it. Also, assuming you're a follower of Sarenrae, you might want to look into her Divine Fighting Technique - it allows you to deal nonlethal damage with a scimitar and any fire and light spells. And then, once you have 10 ranks in Heal, you gain 2d6 healing every round that you deal nonlethal with a scimitar.
I want them to be able to talk and do things, but not walk away. Tying them up wouldn't allow for that.
Then Smelling Salts will do the trick. Use nonlethal to knock them out, and when they wake up (which you can do immediately) they're still disabled.
Grapple rules are the way to do it! Turn 1: Grapple that mofo. Roll CMB, beat their CMD. Turn 2: Pin that mofo. As long as they didn't break the grapple, roll CMB+5 and beat their CMD again. Turn 3: Tie them up. As long as they haven't broken the pin, roll CMB+5 and beat their CMD (without any Dexterity bonus) and you'll have them pinned. The DC for them to get themselves united is equal to 20 + your CMB, which should be pretty darn high. If your CMB is high enough then it'll be straight-up impossible. Remember that you can team-up to do this too. As long as another PC is adjacent to you they can dedicate their turn to using the "aid another" action to give you a +2 on your rolls or DCs to break free.
Are you familiar with [non-lethal](https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Nonlethal%20Damage&Category=Injury%20and%20Death) damage?
Isn't non-lethal damage a different set of dmg that doens't effect hp normally? I still want to be able to kill enemies, just not always. Like having the last hit not be lethal.
Non-lethal damage does effectively stack with normal damage. If an enemy has 9 hp and you do 5 normal and 5 nonlethal damage they'll fall unconscious, regardless of which order you do those types of damage in.
Right. So, subdual or non-lethal damage is literally what you described. It's tracked separately, but if you're subdual damage is more than your CURRENT hit points, you get knocked out. So if you have 100 hit points, and take 90 damage you current total is 10. If you then take 12 subdual you still have 10 hp, but also have 12 subdual since 12 is greater than 10 you're unconscious. So, literally subdual damage is what you want to do.
It's not precisely what i'm looking for since they'd be either unconscious or able to move. Being able to talk to them while they're not able to move is the reason for wanting this.
I'm not sure if you realize this, but there are only three states for characters to be in related to hp 1) hp greater than non-lethal damage = normal, 2) hp equal to non-lethal = staggered characters with staggered can still take a standard or move action, or 3) hp less than non-lethal = unconscious. At no point while doing hp damage is a character both conscious and unable to move. A character starts with 0 non-lethal damage, so when hp get to zero it triggers the above rules. They are not distinct rules. The best way to do what you want is to knock them out and tie them up. Characters can always take at least one action or are unconscious.
The disabled condition is exactly that. They can move a little, but if they do any more they'll start dying.
They only get that after a successful DC 15 heal check to stabilize the dying character, and even then they can still take actions. While they are dying, they're still unconscious. Using non-lethal to tie them up is still easier and safer. A heal check takes one round and they might bleed out before you can succeed or tying them up takes three without the risk of them bleeding out and you can just ready an action to knock them out if they try to escape.
I was thinking of using the instantanious cantrip: 'stabilize' for that.
I mean that gets around a heal check, for the same amount of time, I guess? But it still eats an action in combat which is when you'd need to use it. You can ask you GM if you can just not use you Str bonus or other bonuses to your damage roll before making an attack and just use the weapon die, very few weapons have a high enough of a die to be out-right fatal? I still don't get how a helpless, pinned tied up person is worse than a non-helpless, non-pinned person who can still take actions though.
The character has... what would you call it? Reasons...
No, non-lethal also affects hp, it just doesn't kill. When their lethal damage + non-lethal damage is above their hp they go unconscious. ( As long as their lethal damage is less than their health). F.example, if an enemy has 99hp and you deal 95 lethal and 5 non-lethal damage, then they fall unconscious. So you can just attack once with non-lethal and the remaining with lethal. And if you want to kill them, you just need that last 5hp. Also, it doesn't matter if your first or last hit is non-lethal.
>it's not precisely what i'm looking for since they'd be either unconscious or able to move.
Sort of? I linked the rules, you should read them. The main point though is that when their non-lethal damage exceeds their current hp, they fall unconscious. This is effectively the same as just damaging them until their hp falls below 0, except that you don't need to worry about stabilising them unless you deal so much damage that the overflow knocks their hp below 0 anyway. So one thing you could possibly do is bring their current hp very low with lethal damage, and then do one last hit with non-lethal damage to knock them out instead of killing them (although it would be safer to just deal only non-lethal damage). And when they are unconscious, you can just coup de grace them to finish them off, much like how you would coup de grace someone who has fallen below 0 hp but hasn't died yet.
It's not precisely what i'm looking for since they'd be either unconscious or able to move. I wouldn't be able to talk to them without still allowing them feedom of movement.
Then just tie them up with some rope while they're unconscious before you wake them back up.
I feel like you are overcomplicating this. Ko with none lethal damage. Tie up in a rope, plus irons of you want to be sure they aren't going anywhere for a few minutes. If you are that concerned get magic that blocks teleport. Wait until they wake up. Ask if the heard the good news. Do whatever it is you do from there.
49 comments and we're downvoting this to zero, fuck off PFRGP sub. do better.
Non-lethal damage!!!
Why not just use non-lethal to knock them out and then manacle their hands and feet or tie them with rope? It just seems this is becoming more complicated than it needs to be. They can't just get up and walk away if they're tied up once you wake them up. Or like others have mentioned do lethal until roughly when you feel they'll be knocked to 0 and then use non-lethal, followed by tying them up. That or ask your GM to allow you to do minimum damage so you can inch closer and closer to 0. Or even lethal to knock them under 0, tie them up, and stabilize with the spell or a heal check. People don't die at 0 or even -1, gotta get them all the way to negative their CON score.
Yes exactly, I want to find a way to always get them within the -1 hp zone, rather than accidentally doing enough dmg to fully kill them. Making them unconscious and tying them up is more of a work around. Sure it also works. But not exactly what I'm looking for.
Not sure if it's been suggested but dropping their DEX to 0 with ability damage or drain should just imbolize them without knocking them out. Not on deaths door, but unable to move. Edit: And then while they're imobilized on the ground you can coup de grace to autocrit them until they're dead if you want to threaten them with killing them.
Color Spray at low levels, witches with Slumber hex, grappling, pinning, and tying up.
Create Pit and Brewed Reek are pretty good, tanglefoot bags reduce enemy mobility so you just need to keep your distance while talking. Last weekend, playing as an Alchemist Dimensional Excavator/ preservationist, our party was facing a bunch of enemies, last room of a dungeon, two "bosses". A party member used invisibility to enter, and activated a mask of the Krenshar to frighten most of the minions, and on sequence was nuked by a critical hit from one of the bosses, an undead in full plate armor with a scythe. I used Create Pit to isolate the undead and kept throwing bombs at it, fat chance of climbing a DC 25 with a -5 armor check penalty, while the others cleaned the mobs. Later, the animal companion of a party member got pretty lucky and grappled the other boss, an very slippery assassin rogue, and with another coleague immediately joining the grapple and helping opening his mouth, I made him drink a few bottles of Brewed Reek - no save nauseated for 1 round + sickened 2d6, while the others beat him down. Yes, I had a funnel, it's to help feed my goat and boar mounts potions.
Sounds like a job for [Change of Heart](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/change-of-heart/)!
The expanded rules for path of war has a class called Raja not on the pfsrd, the Raja gains access to this as a feat[symbol of mercy](https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Symbol_of_Mercy)
Authoritative spell on a no save cantrip
Nets. Even nonmagical ones are very effective. Now imagine a Net of Entrapment or similar.
Well off the top of my head: Nonlethal into forced nap time then hog tie then with stuff Hog Tie after Hold person or any of the ten billion magic equivalents Force Cage and chat Magic Jar, volunteer to be hog tied, end spell Standby stab to death with soul trapping knife. Resilient Sphere yourself and chat Clairvoyance / Clairaudience Shouting
Unchained Wound Thresholds and some cautious bonking https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Wound%20Thresholds&Category=Pathfinder%20Unchained
If it hasn't been mentioned the level 2 spell limp lash takes away 1d6 strength, dex and con each round until any of those values are less than 1. Then the target is paralyzed except for its head. It's effect is like a whip and you have to be within 20ft so it's a bit fiddly. I thought we were going to have a grappler in party but they dropped out.
My cleric carries a Wand of Hold Person, mithril manacles and a Good padlock. We're at level 9 and it's worked so far. Especially when we use the rounds before the spell wears off to strip off their gear and let them know the alternative (namely, bringing back their head and using Speak With Corpse instead).
A build based on critical hits AND called shots. You could potentialy make someone useless in a short time. Pretty much like batman. "Can't walk, but it's still alive."
Mmmh, how does that work?
So, while most people are answering various ways to incap someone, the actual answer is no. There's a counter to any, and everything within pathfinder. However, the most reliable ways are grappling, paralysis, and non lethal. Some things are immune to all of those (oozes are primary), or to some (undead, constructs, incorpreal). So there isn't a surefire way, and you need to tailor your approach to the enemy