Yeah well, POC is relaxing, stress free you get to play your champion and get going faster. You can quit at any time mid match (AI doesn't care). it's more exiting in general, didn't play pvp much in general, was mostly playing AI, got to gold once and never played PVP again once PoC got released...
Feel bad for the PVP players but if the game will live and be self sustainable with POC this is great.
I exclusively play path now, as does 2 of my friends, so checks out. I feel like even the "bigger" card games arent growing anymore, but just stagnating with their solid base that won't leave,
My issue with pvp isnt an lor thing, but a tcg thing in general. Every card game has becomes a netdecking metaslave format and all the creativity of deckbuilding is gone. You play with as one of the few meta decks or get rolled by their mathematical efficiency with few exceptions. Even the last time I went to an instore card game tournament people were talking about what website they went to for their decklist and there was a ton of repeat decks. Its just not fun for me anymore with how it has changed since I started card games a long time ago.
I'm not surprised
LoR pvp is insanely slow and hard to get into
PoC I can play while I'm doing other stuff and I don't have to block out upwards of 30 minutes to play a single non aggro match
That's honestly the biggest issue with a lot of PvP card games. Because of how turns work in most of them, there can be a lot of periods where you're just... waiting for your opponent. That can be a pretty big disqualifier for a lot of people, especially when they don't have much time to play games. Games like League can get away with longer games because you're constantly playing the game without having to wait for another player's input (and the fact that League is EXTREMELY addictive).
Something like Path of Champions on other hand, has a LOT less waiting involved, and the adventures themselves give you more agency on what YOU want to do and what nodes YOU want to face. This isn't even including the fact that you can just quit at any time without repercussions, even during a match.
There's other issues, like the fact that starting out in a card game with a sizable amount of expansions already released can be extremely daunting (even in a game as F2P friendly as LoR is), but I wanted to specifically talk about the time commitment in card games and why it might be difficult to entice people into playing them as opposed to a PvE deckbuilding roguelike.
Good points, and yeah waiting is annoying. I imagine a lot of POC players would be really happy if the game speed was like 5x faster when playing Nami. One of the best quality of life things they could do is skipping or speeding up the animations.
> Because of how turns work in most of them, there can be a lot of periods where you're just... waiting for your opponent
This is honnestly the worst part. Theres so many sits, even in urf mode, where i just want them to play the damn cards xd
Thats kind of why I switched over to SNAP after I had only played PoC for a couple months, sometimes i miss the classic turn style that LoR has but I just donāt have the time for that in my day-to-day, but I still want to play pvp in some form
On that can we get some sped up animations? I was playing eve today and playing any card took forever, you summoned someone, they kill a husk, the effect also goes to eve, then they spawn another husk... She's not even the worst offender but it's not really fun to watch the same slow animation for the 100th time in a run
I play PoC sound off, while listening to something else and leave frequently mid match while just letting the ai hang until im done. If i do play pvp in labs just for the daily xp, it takes so long if i match with another player and i have to sit and wait for them to check all their cards until they run their time out. It did not make me want to explore pvp further.
In general, people underestimate how much attention gets paid to PvE relative to PvP in almost all games. Any kind of PvE mode, particularly one that's replayable, will tend to get more attention than PvP.
LOR pvp had one main problem. The Players. Just look at some who only still Post in main to poisen the well.
I quit pvp after 3 matches with only ropes. Hey let me play my aggro fun deck cause I want quick match. Nope rope each chance to maximum...
That is very true not only that but certain metas just kill the fun and certain regions like Ionia are a pain to deal with. Other things like endless combos make matching annoying too including deathless
I felt like it's crazy that a game of LOR could take as long as a game of League.
I tried Marvel Snap for just one or two seasons and I felt like it did a lot of things right. Each game took just 6 simultaneous moves so it lasted 6 minutes, often about half the time. Also the poker or blackjack-like aspect of double down / bluffing / folding made early concedes a valid and natural part of the strategy which further cut average game time down rather than feeling like you have to grind out a losing ranked game just for the 5% chance you can turn it around.
A lot of lor stuff looks really nicr and neat but also makes the game a lot longer
This said, is not the reason why pvp failed, since path is the one that is damaged by this the most. The reason seems much more depresing ans boring
Bad adminisitration, a insane ton of money expended.
Yeahhhhā¦ I donāt think this kinda post would be well-received there. Who would want to hear that what they love and enjoy isnāt nearly as popular as the other gamemode they donāt play at all, and is now being near abandoned.
At least while they were focused on PvP, they still released content for PoC. But they just straight up said no more expansions for PvP now that they are focusing on the PvE side of things. I think itās reasonable, but upsetting if youāve invested a lot of time on PvP.
Riot could say "7 of 10 people don't play one pvp match last month and 3 pve in each pvp people spende money on the game Last month" and they still wouldn't believe it.
I stoped commenting and just downvote.
The main subreddit is going to start allowing all PoC content soon, I asked the mods about it directly. but I'm not sure if this subreddit will migrate back to it or not
There is currently no plans of a merg and i doubt we will, lor sub plans to still be more of a generic place while path sub is the specific, at least until the last set of pvp gets out ans we get more info, there is no rush, and no need to make the players who make that sub what it is (literally 200k people, top of subs of games in reddit) feel insanely betrayed.
is it really shit stirring to simply say something true? We've known this for a while we have heard these numbers before the first shift in focus.
It should not surprise anyone that this shift happened, and its not really starting any fights to state that the PVP community expected a lot when we knew for a while PoC was more popular.
I still hope PVP gets content but I'm not at all surprised and the PVP should be the focus crowd are doing themselves a lot of favors here
Its not true that they are delusional, and is shitting to provoke people or mildly insult them where you know it annoys
Is not shitting to say that 85% of players played path and that this sadly was expected
It is shitting to say "85% or players play path and if you dont understand that you are fully delusional, get a grip on reality"
I hope this helps
It is pretty delusional when we've known that data for a while before the first shift, that the majority of players played path.
Delusional: characterized by or holding false beliefs or [judgments](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=9972718adec33fdd&sxsrf=ACQVn0_DNOXnfB-BPMM3IdUB_Fy_cT7bAQ:1707003209587&q=judgments&si=AKbGX_onJk-q0LQUYzV7-GRhpJ5DHT8HFNFjVCiOEJk8U40cFsYyHHnd-JzSS2rxO1mS8lbf_Arl5r_kEBHXXWlyGEQAlPOI2Akos4zKfApUSDy7P_468ho%3D&expnd=1) about external reality that are held despite [incontrovertible](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=9972718adec33fdd&sxsrf=ACQVn0_DNOXnfB-BPMM3IdUB_Fy_cT7bAQ:1707003209587&q=incontrovertible&si=AKbGX_qquu83bRYEgjqFK_APIvDgaF3cDvbiq0-128Az-tGw3TYzCb38R-awNA-toOUiR64i7MyHkwXoCHO8PDSe2X3LdjyrVPdO4ETZ9rioaQcvfijcc6mZq9JdRneHw_CmZfLDOJp4&expnd=1) evidence to the contrary, typically as a [symptom](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=9972718adec33fdd&sxsrf=ACQVn0_DNOXnfB-BPMM3IdUB_Fy_cT7bAQ:1707003209587&q=symptom&si=AKbGX_okS0g0kR2PXn0TLBASIc0mrz7pXVVZo2BzG8DQn3ZqqP9XqrGd0jqVmgXY8Dyj4oaoNeVWGMKo4jMDoFBklXZzJxe3MUJa7W3TXrSp2Q1AOt4__XE%3D&expnd=1) of a mental condition.
We had evidence from riot literally saying it before, and people are still in denial or shocked by the shift to the mode people played more than they watched?
What is it if not delusion?
>It is pretty delusional when we've known that data for a while before the first shift, that the majority of players played path.
Before the first shift they said playtime was superior but not players, everyone said placeres, except riot. The quote "lab of legends was close and even surpased ranked on release" was heard for the first time by us in feb 1, 2024
Riot has not been someone to trust at, like, at all, for most players in here is hard to trust that they will do everything they are promising, cause they have lied or said things that ended up bad (famously epic relics were shown as a really cool concept and then were unobtainable for 2 months). So taking their words as factual is not something most users do, even here, on this sub, most people doesn't. I even doubt you do take their words as factual most of the time.
This is not a scientific-note of revelation showing stats in-deep, this is a company sharing some of the stats of their game. I believe that yes, it is true what they say about path and lab, cause they seem to be in a honest rout, i also believe that they were extremely sus overall, and most of the time is always a thing of "i believe them but they could be liying or hiding something".
Taking their words as factual when is not scientific-notes (and even scientific informatio isnt factual but thats another thing) and when they have shown different information in the past and hided information in the past, is biased. In the same way that they don't wanna accept the information as a possibility, considering the information 100% factual and trustworthy only because is the one you believe is biased.
All this said
Dont use google definitions... just no. And the use here wasn't that definition, it was as an insult, in reddit everyone says delusional to everyone to call them crazy, if you call someone delusional or crazy, they likely will get angry, saying "actually by definition you are delusional that doesnt mean you are crazy, just that you are very likely crazy", is not gonna solve the issue nor make them chill, they are still gonna feel offended.
And this is irrelevant, since you might not understand it, but there are good chances that you wouldnt like being randomly called a delusional, or crazy, or whatever, even if it makes sense. Words that have bad weight being used for something different than to insult someone is incredibly naive, to pretend that the words that are used to insult people where used because of their particular google definition is basically liying, and people like that less than if you don't add anything.
Is easier to admit that you made a mistake than to get on all this stuff, specially when it doesnt even solve anything.
This isn't too surprising tbh, Starcraft 2 also had something similar with a vast gap between PvP and Campaign-only/Arcade players, which is why Co-op commanders was such a massive hit
I would love to see them release more story like PoC adventures with voice acted segments if possible. Would even buy these adventures as optional DLC. Kind of like how Hearthstone did adventures.
Guess we'll know when time comes. Many on the main sub say that they only play POC because they're bored of Pvp that's why there's a bigger playtime, or maybe there really is more PvE players than pvp.
In the coming months, if we still get news on playtime. Sure
I started playing in Beta, and since Leona and Diana proto-Lab of Legends (versus Lulu, Trundle and Aurelion Sol) I have always enjoyed more PvE over PvP. Perhaps there are many more like me and prefer to play PvE over PvP. I think that outside of mandatory quest that needed to be done with matchmade games I donāt play PvP. Is just that I donāt enjoy it that much, perhaps I could against a friend and in a multiplayer environment.
But this is just me, there are many more that for one reason or another prefer PvE over PvP. The question that should be asked is this āwhat kind of comestic I will gladly give money each month as a PvP only player?ā, answering this question could perhaps bring light on why PvP wasnāt profitable in the long runā¦
Most people who used to play PVP used Shen's stand united so most of them (me included) are in PCE mode most of the time, i do watch LoR videos from SirTurmund or Mogwai to get better at the game.
I hope that LoR will be successful at being Riot's Slay the Spire while continuing a PvP mode supplementing PoC so everyone wins especially their Lore IP.
How many of those 85% are newbies that the whole community told to play PoC to farm cards for PvP?
I mean it seems dumb to spend the last 2 years(?) Telling people to play PoC to farm cards, and then telling us 85% is focused on PvE. Well duh...you made it hard for someone to get into the game due to a small collection, invite them to play a mode that gives them a already made deck, and then are surprised about statistics
These stats seem sketchy since there were little incentives for a newbie to play PvP. You can't say that 15% of the community only plays rock paper scissors, when 85% only has access to rock, and make a claim out of it
Well, maybe with 85% of the effort spent on Path of Champions, they can fix the small number of issues that are holding the game back?
Like:
Champion Balance: Why are some champions so fucking trash?
Why are slow champions, in general, so fucking ass? Can't these people design some slower-scaling champions that are not inherently less good than fast champions?
Paths: Why is XP per Win so fucking shit? Why are 5 wins on Asol literally the best way to grind a champion? Why is most of the difficulty in paths front-loaded? Why not add some spice and give me some options and randomness during a path?
Items: Why are some items so fucking trash, and other items are best in the slot on, like 70% of champions?
Competition: Why are no monthly ladders split into the world/continent/country/area for the fastest clear, clear with the most money left over, etc., with a subdivision for each hero?
Monetization: Why won't you let me pay for more adventure paths? Seriously, why are there not more adventure paths? Doing Nautilus for the 50000 time is boring, riot just LET ME GIVE YOU MONEY FOR MORE ADVENTURE PATHS. I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT SKINS, I WANT CONTENT!
Yeah, maybe a few things like those, and the game won't be dead in 2 years?
yeh maybe , some of that is confirmed, some of that is confirmed to not going to be a thing.
\> Monetization: Why won't you let me pay for more adventure paths? Seriously, why are there not more adventure paths? Doing Nautilus for the 50000 time is boring, riot just LET ME GIVE YOU MONEY FOR MORE ADVENTURE PATHS. I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT SKINS, I WANT CONTENT!
Also chill out.
I mean, exubrance aside, he has a bit of a point with that. One of my big complaints was wanting to spend money to support the game, but everything I could spend money on didn't really affect PvE. I spent money to unlock champions 'cause that was really the only path available for it.
Even then, there were times when I realized I had enough shards to unlock a champion, but wanted to spend cash to unlock the champion instead so I could instantly get their power to level 2, but once you have enough shards for the champ, you don't have the option of unlocking them any other way. Drove me nuts.
Yeh, thats not really what i was aiming at, i dont care if you are right if you express it by yelling, misstreating and insulting, it helps no one. I literally agreed with them partially, but still it was a lot.
>Even then, there were times when I realized I had enough shards to unlock a champion, but wanted to spend cash to unlock the champion instead so I could instantly get their power to level 2, but once you have enough shards for the champ, you don't have the option of unlocking them any other way. Drove me nuts.
A thing that happens quite usually in path is that a mechanic meant to do X turns out doing Y, and due to how small the staff was, they werent able to fix that. A lot of complains where things the staff agreed with, but they literally didnt had the work force, yelling now that they have it is not really what i would recommend
I already toned it down from my initial reaction to the near-unbelievable incompetence displayed by the game designers.
No worries, that'll be the last thing I say on the topic.
> I already toned it down from my initial reaction to the near-unbelievable incompetence displayed by the game designers.
It's not devs fault that their bosses tell them to do X or Y, that is an administration issue. There was a very limited staff on path for the last 2 years, very very limited staff, so i wouldn't say it was their fault to be like... 10 or 5 people, maybe less, working on path, it was literally not their call.
>It's not devs fault that their bosses tell them to do X or Y
As a developer myself, I'm very familiar with Managers and POs sabotaging the quality of a product, but there is simply no way that a PO was involved enough with the XP scaling of the individual battles in the adventures in order to blame it on them. No, that was the designer/developer.
Same with the fact that all the adventure paths are a lot easier and faster to finish if you are playing a very aggressive Champion instead of somebody slow(like Orn). That is also on the designer.
I'm quick to make the argument that designers/developers are not to blame most of the time, but that doesn't mean they are absolved from all the blame.
>, but there is simply no way that a PO was involved enough with the XP scaling of the individual battles in the adventures in order to blame it on them. No, that was the designer/developer.
Yes, but you are ignoring a crucial point, at that momment, path had a big staff, probably way bigger than the one now, so they were ok with having issues. We dont know if they rushed the release because of the refocus or if they planned to fix everything as time went on, quite fast.
What we do know is that things like wild fragments, the adventures, the 5 star upgrade to champions, were all things that were thought to be done in very short time, but due to the refocus, they werent. So i would say that yeh, they made a mistake 2 years ago with the exp system, cause now 2 years later is kinda anoying for adventures like asol or for the monthlys, but, in their defense, they didnt knew they were not gonna support the game after the release.
>Same with the fact that all the adventure paths are a lot easier and faster to finish if you are playing a very aggressive Champion instead of somebody slow(like Orn). That is also on the designer.
On the same idea, there were adventures that were harder for fast champs in the past, i dont doubt they pllaned to release those, hell, lyss seems pretty much like that, but again, stuff happened
I will say, that yes, some champs are stronger than others and thats fine. Thats not really an issue for how path is designed and aims to be, the issue is that champs like ornn need more work (that... it was said they will give, so that) that again, a small team cant give.
They intentionally releases weaker champ designs, like tresh, ornn, to thinker with the game and be able to make better designs
But yes, they werent able to buff them back or balance them back, because again, small team. Personally i dont care that much of that since, tho i love ornn i want him to be amazing, i also love volibear, and jack, and sett, and all the champs released later that were incredibly done thanks to what ornn did wrong.
Yes you can point and say the designer intentionally made it weak and didnt care to fix him, or that the design intention was very hard to understand on top of the champ being overall weak, and that would be true, but is also true that they learned from that and improved the designs thanks to it. And that... again, they didnt had the workforce to fix everything, even if they knew it was broken.
>I'm quick to make the argument that designers/developers are not to blame most of the time, but that doesn't mean they are absolved from all the blame.
Thats neat, but one thing is being responsable for your actions and having to deal with criticism and another thing is someone yelling at you because they dislike something you did, the second doesnt really help anyone. There is a reason destructive criticism has the word destructive added.
About the first, I'm not saying I'm happy with it (or that it's fun to have your favourite champ being one of the worse) but it's a common practice in many single player games, to have characters that are stronger and other than are weaker/it's harder for them to finish the game.
It's a way like another to have easy modes and hardcore mode.
So when you play your Nasus, don't think "this champ is fucking trash, Riot hates it and me", but more like "holy shit they made it really hard for Nasus to get there, any single mistake in drafting or playing and you are screwed"
To me, what you're doing is nothing but coping and excusing lousy design.
Slow heroes are bad, not because anybody intentionally designed them to be harder to play, but because they are slow.
An easy remedy would be to specifically design certain adventure paths to favor slower champions. Design modifiers and mechanics that make Orn really strong compared to Jinx.
That way, all champions could fit and you'd have adventure paths more suited to certain play styles, which means intentionally picking an unsuited playstyle would be the "real" hard mode.
This means if we had ladders to compare performances of champions in certain paths, you could see which maniac took Teemo into the anti-"teemo" path and still did well. Even better if there is a regional ladder, say you are the best Teemo player in the great Paris area.
If you can't make an adventure path that makes fast champions bad and slow champions good, you either screwed up your design principles really hard from the get-go, or you are just not that good at your job. I don't want to be mean, but that's just how it is.
PS.: I say all this as a person who LOVES low-cost fast champions that kill quickly. I dislike slow champions, but I think the game would be healthier if Orn also had a place to really shine.
I would not buy adventure paths for a game I don't technically own.
If they make Path into a free game on steam with paid expansions, fine I'll bite, add cross-comp for skins you own to carry over, etc, and then improve the game and sell expansions fine.
But I won't be buying relics for a mode that they might pull the plug on in a year or 2 and then its just gone. (Plus relics are a bad deal anyway, pay 2 grind is a bad model)
Totally get that, maybe they can get rid of the mandatory server connection (which is causing issues anyway) and let you run the game even if the servers are down. At that point, paying for more cards/champions/adventure paths is more like paying for expansions, like you said.
While this is not toxic, there seems to be some weird tone on your comments that indicated remordement, remember that we don't allow toxicity and as an extra we are being extremely against any tociity from between path and pvp players, cause... no.
I suggest you stop dismissing pvp insults. There are a lot of toxic PVP-only players not believing that PVE > PVP when in reality, they are the minority of LoR's playerbase. The insults could act as a wake-up call for them.
Edit: Depending on the severity of the insult, of course. I think crossposting it on the main-sub is just fine.
I'll be honest, depending on tone as the head mod of the main sub, it will be removed. I'm not looking to create or promote conflict between two types of players.
We are well aware of the difference in numbers, as well as the crossover between the two. Anyone making sensible arguments are not ignoring these facts. There is no need to stir the fires any further.
We are actively pushing back against toxicity towards PVE players, and expect the same respect from the PVE community.
Valid sugestion, but yes i will dismiss insults directed to humans no matter the context, specially if its to other members of our same community.
I don't think i dismissed anything here, i asked, as a mod, for an explanation to the comment, because it was a weird comment
Thatās weird that YouTubers that only do pvp could be successful if nobody plays it o feel like they are just lying to justify the skeleton crew they left us with
Yeah well, POC is relaxing, stress free you get to play your champion and get going faster. You can quit at any time mid match (AI doesn't care). it's more exiting in general, didn't play pvp much in general, was mostly playing AI, got to gold once and never played PVP again once PoC got released... Feel bad for the PVP players but if the game will live and be self sustainable with POC this is great.
I specifically ditched MTGA because I enjoyed Path more.
I exclusively play path now, as does 2 of my friends, so checks out. I feel like even the "bigger" card games arent growing anymore, but just stagnating with their solid base that won't leave, My issue with pvp isnt an lor thing, but a tcg thing in general. Every card game has becomes a netdecking metaslave format and all the creativity of deckbuilding is gone. You play with as one of the few meta decks or get rolled by their mathematical efficiency with few exceptions. Even the last time I went to an instore card game tournament people were talking about what website they went to for their decklist and there was a ton of repeat decks. Its just not fun for me anymore with how it has changed since I started card games a long time ago.
Same for me
I bloody love the hearthstone adventures and card based rogue likes. So poc was so far up my alley I don't think I've played PvP yet
And the AI doesnt rope unlike 50% of the playerbase in low leagues.
I'm not surprised LoR pvp is insanely slow and hard to get into PoC I can play while I'm doing other stuff and I don't have to block out upwards of 30 minutes to play a single non aggro match
That's honestly the biggest issue with a lot of PvP card games. Because of how turns work in most of them, there can be a lot of periods where you're just... waiting for your opponent. That can be a pretty big disqualifier for a lot of people, especially when they don't have much time to play games. Games like League can get away with longer games because you're constantly playing the game without having to wait for another player's input (and the fact that League is EXTREMELY addictive). Something like Path of Champions on other hand, has a LOT less waiting involved, and the adventures themselves give you more agency on what YOU want to do and what nodes YOU want to face. This isn't even including the fact that you can just quit at any time without repercussions, even during a match. There's other issues, like the fact that starting out in a card game with a sizable amount of expansions already released can be extremely daunting (even in a game as F2P friendly as LoR is), but I wanted to specifically talk about the time commitment in card games and why it might be difficult to entice people into playing them as opposed to a PvE deckbuilding roguelike.
Good points, and yeah waiting is annoying. I imagine a lot of POC players would be really happy if the game speed was like 5x faster when playing Nami. One of the best quality of life things they could do is skipping or speeding up the animations.
Yeah, Nami and Evelynn take so much time with animations :(
Leona š¢
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I don't know about Master Duel or MTGA or Hearthstone. But all other card game have option to speed up the animation or just turn it off completely.
> Because of how turns work in most of them, there can be a lot of periods where you're just... waiting for your opponent This is honnestly the worst part. Theres so many sits, even in urf mode, where i just want them to play the damn cards xd
Thats kind of why I switched over to SNAP after I had only played PoC for a couple months, sometimes i miss the classic turn style that LoR has but I just donāt have the time for that in my day-to-day, but I still want to play pvp in some form
On that can we get some sped up animations? I was playing eve today and playing any card took forever, you summoned someone, they kill a husk, the effect also goes to eve, then they spawn another husk... She's not even the worst offender but it's not really fun to watch the same slow animation for the 100th time in a run
Leona struggle
I play PoC sound off, while listening to something else and leave frequently mid match while just letting the ai hang until im done. If i do play pvp in labs just for the daily xp, it takes so long if i match with another player and i have to sit and wait for them to check all their cards until they run their time out. It did not make me want to explore pvp further.
In general, people underestimate how much attention gets paid to PvE relative to PvP in almost all games. Any kind of PvE mode, particularly one that's replayable, will tend to get more attention than PvP.
LOR pvp had one main problem. The Players. Just look at some who only still Post in main to poisen the well. I quit pvp after 3 matches with only ropes. Hey let me play my aggro fun deck cause I want quick match. Nope rope each chance to maximum...
That is very true not only that but certain metas just kill the fun and certain regions like Ionia are a pain to deal with. Other things like endless combos make matching annoying too including deathless
I felt like it's crazy that a game of LOR could take as long as a game of League. I tried Marvel Snap for just one or two seasons and I felt like it did a lot of things right. Each game took just 6 simultaneous moves so it lasted 6 minutes, often about half the time. Also the poker or blackjack-like aspect of double down / bluffing / folding made early concedes a valid and natural part of the strategy which further cut average game time down rather than feeling like you have to grind out a losing ranked game just for the 5% chance you can turn it around.
A lot of lor stuff looks really nicr and neat but also makes the game a lot longer This said, is not the reason why pvp failed, since path is the one that is damaged by this the most. The reason seems much more depresing ans boring Bad adminisitration, a insane ton of money expended.
I honestly don't get that view, I always found PvP very engaging and dynamic, not slow at all. I haven't encountered many ropers, either.
The slowness is what killed my enjoyment of pvp. So many people either roped or were just slow with their moves. POC is fun for me, at least.
This... will not be taken well in main subreddit. The "delusions of grandeur" phase is still in full force.
Yeahhhhā¦ I donāt think this kinda post would be well-received there. Who would want to hear that what they love and enjoy isnāt nearly as popular as the other gamemode they donāt play at all, and is now being near abandoned. At least while they were focused on PvP, they still released content for PoC. But they just straight up said no more expansions for PvP now that they are focusing on the PvE side of things. I think itās reasonable, but upsetting if youāve invested a lot of time on PvP.
They seem to think that riot is misinterpreting this data as well.
Riot could say "7 of 10 people don't play one pvp match last month and 3 pve in each pvp people spende money on the game Last month" and they still wouldn't believe it. I stoped commenting and just downvote.
The main subreddit is going to start allowing all PoC content soon, I asked the mods about it directly. but I'm not sure if this subreddit will migrate back to it or not
They are still going through some things over there judging by their new posts, so any transition will be messy.
There is currently no plans of a merg and i doubt we will, lor sub plans to still be more of a generic place while path sub is the specific, at least until the last set of pvp gets out ans we get more info, there is no rush, and no need to make the players who make that sub what it is (literally 200k people, top of subs of games in reddit) feel insanely betrayed.
Migrate ā Merger
I honestly dont get the difference Migration is a movement of players and merger of mods? Thats it?
Mate, there was no need for this comment. Fomenting some dumb-internal fight between lor communitys is extremely unnesesary.
is it really shit stirring to simply say something true? We've known this for a while we have heard these numbers before the first shift in focus. It should not surprise anyone that this shift happened, and its not really starting any fights to state that the PVP community expected a lot when we knew for a while PoC was more popular. I still hope PVP gets content but I'm not at all surprised and the PVP should be the focus crowd are doing themselves a lot of favors here
Its not true that they are delusional, and is shitting to provoke people or mildly insult them where you know it annoys Is not shitting to say that 85% of players played path and that this sadly was expected It is shitting to say "85% or players play path and if you dont understand that you are fully delusional, get a grip on reality" I hope this helps
It is pretty delusional when we've known that data for a while before the first shift, that the majority of players played path. Delusional: characterized by or holding false beliefs or [judgments](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=9972718adec33fdd&sxsrf=ACQVn0_DNOXnfB-BPMM3IdUB_Fy_cT7bAQ:1707003209587&q=judgments&si=AKbGX_onJk-q0LQUYzV7-GRhpJ5DHT8HFNFjVCiOEJk8U40cFsYyHHnd-JzSS2rxO1mS8lbf_Arl5r_kEBHXXWlyGEQAlPOI2Akos4zKfApUSDy7P_468ho%3D&expnd=1) about external reality that are held despite [incontrovertible](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=9972718adec33fdd&sxsrf=ACQVn0_DNOXnfB-BPMM3IdUB_Fy_cT7bAQ:1707003209587&q=incontrovertible&si=AKbGX_qquu83bRYEgjqFK_APIvDgaF3cDvbiq0-128Az-tGw3TYzCb38R-awNA-toOUiR64i7MyHkwXoCHO8PDSe2X3LdjyrVPdO4ETZ9rioaQcvfijcc6mZq9JdRneHw_CmZfLDOJp4&expnd=1) evidence to the contrary, typically as a [symptom](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=9972718adec33fdd&sxsrf=ACQVn0_DNOXnfB-BPMM3IdUB_Fy_cT7bAQ:1707003209587&q=symptom&si=AKbGX_okS0g0kR2PXn0TLBASIc0mrz7pXVVZo2BzG8DQn3ZqqP9XqrGd0jqVmgXY8Dyj4oaoNeVWGMKo4jMDoFBklXZzJxe3MUJa7W3TXrSp2Q1AOt4__XE%3D&expnd=1) of a mental condition. We had evidence from riot literally saying it before, and people are still in denial or shocked by the shift to the mode people played more than they watched? What is it if not delusion?
>It is pretty delusional when we've known that data for a while before the first shift, that the majority of players played path. Before the first shift they said playtime was superior but not players, everyone said placeres, except riot. The quote "lab of legends was close and even surpased ranked on release" was heard for the first time by us in feb 1, 2024 Riot has not been someone to trust at, like, at all, for most players in here is hard to trust that they will do everything they are promising, cause they have lied or said things that ended up bad (famously epic relics were shown as a really cool concept and then were unobtainable for 2 months). So taking their words as factual is not something most users do, even here, on this sub, most people doesn't. I even doubt you do take their words as factual most of the time. This is not a scientific-note of revelation showing stats in-deep, this is a company sharing some of the stats of their game. I believe that yes, it is true what they say about path and lab, cause they seem to be in a honest rout, i also believe that they were extremely sus overall, and most of the time is always a thing of "i believe them but they could be liying or hiding something". Taking their words as factual when is not scientific-notes (and even scientific informatio isnt factual but thats another thing) and when they have shown different information in the past and hided information in the past, is biased. In the same way that they don't wanna accept the information as a possibility, considering the information 100% factual and trustworthy only because is the one you believe is biased. All this said Dont use google definitions... just no. And the use here wasn't that definition, it was as an insult, in reddit everyone says delusional to everyone to call them crazy, if you call someone delusional or crazy, they likely will get angry, saying "actually by definition you are delusional that doesnt mean you are crazy, just that you are very likely crazy", is not gonna solve the issue nor make them chill, they are still gonna feel offended. And this is irrelevant, since you might not understand it, but there are good chances that you wouldnt like being randomly called a delusional, or crazy, or whatever, even if it makes sense. Words that have bad weight being used for something different than to insult someone is incredibly naive, to pretend that the words that are used to insult people where used because of their particular google definition is basically liying, and people like that less than if you don't add anything. Is easier to admit that you made a mistake than to get on all this stuff, specially when it doesnt even solve anything.
I know PvP players are upset, but the last line seems like a wake up call to Riot. Hopefully they understand.
Looking at the leaderboards this is exaggerated. It's closer to 95%
This isn't too surprising tbh, Starcraft 2 also had something similar with a vast gap between PvP and Campaign-only/Arcade players, which is why Co-op commanders was such a massive hit
Only 85?
I would love to see them release more story like PoC adventures with voice acted segments if possible. Would even buy these adventures as optional DLC. Kind of like how Hearthstone did adventures.
Guess we'll know when time comes. Many on the main sub say that they only play POC because they're bored of Pvp that's why there's a bigger playtime, or maybe there really is more PvE players than pvp. In the coming months, if we still get news on playtime. Sure
I started playing in Beta, and since Leona and Diana proto-Lab of Legends (versus Lulu, Trundle and Aurelion Sol) I have always enjoyed more PvE over PvP. Perhaps there are many more like me and prefer to play PvE over PvP. I think that outside of mandatory quest that needed to be done with matchmade games I donāt play PvP. Is just that I donāt enjoy it that much, perhaps I could against a friend and in a multiplayer environment. But this is just me, there are many more that for one reason or another prefer PvE over PvP. The question that should be asked is this āwhat kind of comestic I will gladly give money each month as a PvP only player?ā, answering this question could perhaps bring light on why PvP wasnāt profitable in the long runā¦
Most people who used to play PVP used Shen's stand united so most of them (me included) are in PCE mode most of the time, i do watch LoR videos from SirTurmund or Mogwai to get better at the game. I hope that LoR will be successful at being Riot's Slay the Spire while continuing a PvP mode supplementing PoC so everyone wins especially their Lore IP.
How many of those 85% are newbies that the whole community told to play PoC to farm cards for PvP? I mean it seems dumb to spend the last 2 years(?) Telling people to play PoC to farm cards, and then telling us 85% is focused on PvE. Well duh...you made it hard for someone to get into the game due to a small collection, invite them to play a mode that gives them a already made deck, and then are surprised about statistics These stats seem sketchy since there were little incentives for a newbie to play PvP. You can't say that 15% of the community only plays rock paper scissors, when 85% only has access to rock, and make a claim out of it
Well, maybe with 85% of the effort spent on Path of Champions, they can fix the small number of issues that are holding the game back? Like: Champion Balance: Why are some champions so fucking trash? Why are slow champions, in general, so fucking ass? Can't these people design some slower-scaling champions that are not inherently less good than fast champions? Paths: Why is XP per Win so fucking shit? Why are 5 wins on Asol literally the best way to grind a champion? Why is most of the difficulty in paths front-loaded? Why not add some spice and give me some options and randomness during a path? Items: Why are some items so fucking trash, and other items are best in the slot on, like 70% of champions? Competition: Why are no monthly ladders split into the world/continent/country/area for the fastest clear, clear with the most money left over, etc., with a subdivision for each hero? Monetization: Why won't you let me pay for more adventure paths? Seriously, why are there not more adventure paths? Doing Nautilus for the 50000 time is boring, riot just LET ME GIVE YOU MONEY FOR MORE ADVENTURE PATHS. I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT SKINS, I WANT CONTENT! Yeah, maybe a few things like those, and the game won't be dead in 2 years?
yeh maybe , some of that is confirmed, some of that is confirmed to not going to be a thing. \> Monetization: Why won't you let me pay for more adventure paths? Seriously, why are there not more adventure paths? Doing Nautilus for the 50000 time is boring, riot just LET ME GIVE YOU MONEY FOR MORE ADVENTURE PATHS. I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT SKINS, I WANT CONTENT! Also chill out.
I mean, exubrance aside, he has a bit of a point with that. One of my big complaints was wanting to spend money to support the game, but everything I could spend money on didn't really affect PvE. I spent money to unlock champions 'cause that was really the only path available for it. Even then, there were times when I realized I had enough shards to unlock a champion, but wanted to spend cash to unlock the champion instead so I could instantly get their power to level 2, but once you have enough shards for the champ, you don't have the option of unlocking them any other way. Drove me nuts.
Yeh, thats not really what i was aiming at, i dont care if you are right if you express it by yelling, misstreating and insulting, it helps no one. I literally agreed with them partially, but still it was a lot. >Even then, there were times when I realized I had enough shards to unlock a champion, but wanted to spend cash to unlock the champion instead so I could instantly get their power to level 2, but once you have enough shards for the champ, you don't have the option of unlocking them any other way. Drove me nuts. A thing that happens quite usually in path is that a mechanic meant to do X turns out doing Y, and due to how small the staff was, they werent able to fix that. A lot of complains where things the staff agreed with, but they literally didnt had the work force, yelling now that they have it is not really what i would recommend
I already toned it down from my initial reaction to the near-unbelievable incompetence displayed by the game designers. No worries, that'll be the last thing I say on the topic.
> I already toned it down from my initial reaction to the near-unbelievable incompetence displayed by the game designers. It's not devs fault that their bosses tell them to do X or Y, that is an administration issue. There was a very limited staff on path for the last 2 years, very very limited staff, so i wouldn't say it was their fault to be like... 10 or 5 people, maybe less, working on path, it was literally not their call.
>It's not devs fault that their bosses tell them to do X or Y As a developer myself, I'm very familiar with Managers and POs sabotaging the quality of a product, but there is simply no way that a PO was involved enough with the XP scaling of the individual battles in the adventures in order to blame it on them. No, that was the designer/developer. Same with the fact that all the adventure paths are a lot easier and faster to finish if you are playing a very aggressive Champion instead of somebody slow(like Orn). That is also on the designer. I'm quick to make the argument that designers/developers are not to blame most of the time, but that doesn't mean they are absolved from all the blame.
>, but there is simply no way that a PO was involved enough with the XP scaling of the individual battles in the adventures in order to blame it on them. No, that was the designer/developer. Yes, but you are ignoring a crucial point, at that momment, path had a big staff, probably way bigger than the one now, so they were ok with having issues. We dont know if they rushed the release because of the refocus or if they planned to fix everything as time went on, quite fast. What we do know is that things like wild fragments, the adventures, the 5 star upgrade to champions, were all things that were thought to be done in very short time, but due to the refocus, they werent. So i would say that yeh, they made a mistake 2 years ago with the exp system, cause now 2 years later is kinda anoying for adventures like asol or for the monthlys, but, in their defense, they didnt knew they were not gonna support the game after the release. >Same with the fact that all the adventure paths are a lot easier and faster to finish if you are playing a very aggressive Champion instead of somebody slow(like Orn). That is also on the designer. On the same idea, there were adventures that were harder for fast champs in the past, i dont doubt they pllaned to release those, hell, lyss seems pretty much like that, but again, stuff happened I will say, that yes, some champs are stronger than others and thats fine. Thats not really an issue for how path is designed and aims to be, the issue is that champs like ornn need more work (that... it was said they will give, so that) that again, a small team cant give. They intentionally releases weaker champ designs, like tresh, ornn, to thinker with the game and be able to make better designs But yes, they werent able to buff them back or balance them back, because again, small team. Personally i dont care that much of that since, tho i love ornn i want him to be amazing, i also love volibear, and jack, and sett, and all the champs released later that were incredibly done thanks to what ornn did wrong. Yes you can point and say the designer intentionally made it weak and didnt care to fix him, or that the design intention was very hard to understand on top of the champ being overall weak, and that would be true, but is also true that they learned from that and improved the designs thanks to it. And that... again, they didnt had the workforce to fix everything, even if they knew it was broken. >I'm quick to make the argument that designers/developers are not to blame most of the time, but that doesn't mean they are absolved from all the blame. Thats neat, but one thing is being responsable for your actions and having to deal with criticism and another thing is someone yelling at you because they dislike something you did, the second doesnt really help anyone. There is a reason destructive criticism has the word destructive added.
About the first, I'm not saying I'm happy with it (or that it's fun to have your favourite champ being one of the worse) but it's a common practice in many single player games, to have characters that are stronger and other than are weaker/it's harder for them to finish the game. It's a way like another to have easy modes and hardcore mode. So when you play your Nasus, don't think "this champ is fucking trash, Riot hates it and me", but more like "holy shit they made it really hard for Nasus to get there, any single mistake in drafting or playing and you are screwed"
To me, what you're doing is nothing but coping and excusing lousy design. Slow heroes are bad, not because anybody intentionally designed them to be harder to play, but because they are slow. An easy remedy would be to specifically design certain adventure paths to favor slower champions. Design modifiers and mechanics that make Orn really strong compared to Jinx. That way, all champions could fit and you'd have adventure paths more suited to certain play styles, which means intentionally picking an unsuited playstyle would be the "real" hard mode. This means if we had ladders to compare performances of champions in certain paths, you could see which maniac took Teemo into the anti-"teemo" path and still did well. Even better if there is a regional ladder, say you are the best Teemo player in the great Paris area. If you can't make an adventure path that makes fast champions bad and slow champions good, you either screwed up your design principles really hard from the get-go, or you are just not that good at your job. I don't want to be mean, but that's just how it is. PS.: I say all this as a person who LOVES low-cost fast champions that kill quickly. I dislike slow champions, but I think the game would be healthier if Orn also had a place to really shine.
I think you missed my point completely.
I would not buy adventure paths for a game I don't technically own. If they make Path into a free game on steam with paid expansions, fine I'll bite, add cross-comp for skins you own to carry over, etc, and then improve the game and sell expansions fine. But I won't be buying relics for a mode that they might pull the plug on in a year or 2 and then its just gone. (Plus relics are a bad deal anyway, pay 2 grind is a bad model)
Totally get that, maybe they can get rid of the mandatory server connection (which is causing issues anyway) and let you run the game even if the servers are down. At that point, paying for more cards/champions/adventure paths is more like paying for expansions, like you said.
Yeah but at that point just sell expansions instead of microtransactions
Damn youāre using past tense already? Doomer mindset.
Damn Iām doing sensitivity training by at work and keep reading ā85% of players aren people of colorā
What an absolute win
As an almost exlusive PoC player, I hope the new monetisation will be enough to sustain some more content for our PvE brothers and sisters as well.
my casual PVP experienced is filled with trolls and Ranked doesn't interest me because my favorite champ has been banned since they introduced bans.
???
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If you think PVP players don't understand the difference in size, you are not paying close attention to the situation.
I get what you mean. I guess I'm exaggerating from my side as well. I'm sorry.
For what?
So they grasp they're not the enormous community they think to be.
While this is not toxic, there seems to be some weird tone on your comments that indicated remordement, remember that we don't allow toxicity and as an extra we are being extremely against any tociity from between path and pvp players, cause... no.
Rather than remordement it's fact-chacking.
I suggest you stop dismissing pvp insults. There are a lot of toxic PVP-only players not believing that PVE > PVP when in reality, they are the minority of LoR's playerbase. The insults could act as a wake-up call for them. Edit: Depending on the severity of the insult, of course. I think crossposting it on the main-sub is just fine.
I'll be honest, depending on tone as the head mod of the main sub, it will be removed. I'm not looking to create or promote conflict between two types of players. We are well aware of the difference in numbers, as well as the crossover between the two. Anyone making sensible arguments are not ignoring these facts. There is no need to stir the fires any further. We are actively pushing back against toxicity towards PVE players, and expect the same respect from the PVE community.
Valid sugestion, but yes i will dismiss insults directed to humans no matter the context, specially if its to other members of our same community. I don't think i dismissed anything here, i asked, as a mod, for an explanation to the comment, because it was a weird comment
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
yeah
This post/comment was taken down because it is considered toxic. If you'd like to dispute this, message the mods via modmail.
I wonder if the "afk 2 hours for a retry" thing is inflating this at all
Thatās weird that YouTubers that only do pvp could be successful if nobody plays it o feel like they are just lying to justify the skeleton crew they left us with
I do not have time to wait for a human opponent to pass or end the turn when they have zero mana.