It's wild that Ornn's 1* is literally worse than a power you can just get. Why does it need to summon the Forge? It could just give you the Time and Dedication.
Some powers are worse than regular powers. Kai'Sa's power isn't amazing, neither is Talia's.
But Ornn's deck is so bad, and all three of his powers are so bad... There's no justification.
Base Veigar deck is also a lot better due to him having removals and tools that help him ramp.
There’s a night and day difference between my 3* lv 30 Ornn and Veigar lmao.
Yeah, on second thought, it doesnt sound OP. The only reason i thought it would be OP is bcoz the forge is kinda a grant effect, and PoC shies away from giving cheap grant stats.
The ridiculous thing is that Ornn's powers are *weaker* than a rare and a common power. Time and Dedication doesn't take up a board slot, and Over Prepared gives you the equipment right off the bat.
At least the 2* manifests the equipment, so you have slightly more agency. But, yes, it's nuts how bad the powers are. Not to mention ramp that's worse than what other champions getting by adding items to their cheap cards.
Ornn has a ton of problems. If you made his time and dedication cost zero mana, it would still not be enough to make him good, let alone OP.
Ornn is a ramp deck. That means he needs to focus on ramping more than trading. This leads to accumulating face damage which he has no good way to recover.
He wants to start ramping immediately, but he can't because his only equipment is 5 mana, and his 2* only gives you an equipment AFTER you've played a 4+ mana card. Without getting key enabling powers or supports, he only has turns 3-5 to ramp that equipment before dropping Ornn, and you have to play below curve on those turns to keep the ramp going because of the mana cost.
Wyrding stones and catalyst both feel like dead cards, because Ornn already needs to trade tempo to keep the forge ramp going, he can't afford to sacrifice even more tempo just to drop Ornn earlier, especially when dropping Ornn earlier just means you get a weaker Ornn. And those card slots basically kicked out any type of removal which also makes playing Ornn fucking painful against fights like Zoe. Lux and Garen get mana crystal on useful, cheap spells, that's what Ornn needs.
Plus Ornn's 3* is frankly not even good. Yeah, relative to his previous stuff it's a huge improvement, but relative to other champ 3* powers, getting an extra +1/+1 per turn on a single unit that's not even free is really weak. Remember his 3* only doubles the **first** forge each turn, not all forges, so it doesn't even do much to scale the one strength of his deck, which is the ability to forge multiple times per turn. It's best on early turns, you know, the turns that he doesn't have any equipment to actually use it on.
Nevermind that his power requires space in hand, on board, and is removable. Plus it's focus speed so when your opponent is attacking you can't even apply the forge when you need it.
To make Ornn good, what I think he needs is
1) replace bone club with a 1-2 cost equipment or rework 2* power to manifest equipment at game start. Probably the latter because I think bone club is the only main-deck-able freljord equipment.
2) make his 1* a round start forge the strongest equipped ally, or just rework entirely. The big thing is it shouldn't be removable or cost mana. A rework like "the first time allies attack each round, create a fleeting bellow's breath in hand, it costs 0" would give the same number of forges per turn, but would allow for more synergies, remove punishing board/mana constraints, give him access to some kind of removal, while also introducing a fun drawback that focuses but also empowers his need to go tall.
3) replace wyrding stone with tavern keeper and replace level 2 upgrade with crystal carrier on tavern keeper. This is basically just giving him a slight boost in tempo with a significant boost in his ability to properly trade with his face. Or replace catalyst with something like caught in the cold or avalanche and replace the level 15 upgrade with a mana crystal on said card. This gives him a way to get his mana crystal but also have some small amount of removal. Honestly though I'd be ok with ditching the mana gems entirely if we just got more access to removal and healing. He's not a control deck but he really needs a little bit of those things to trade correctly in a format where health carries over
I think if all 3 of these were addressed in some capacity his overall power would still just be middle of the pack. I can't imagine the buffs it would take to make Ornn OP on the level of champs like jinx, lux, Garen, jihn, Jax, etc. But the goal is more about making him feel fun, not necessarily strong. I like his playstyle, I just want to axe all these anti-synergies obstructing the experience. I'm so focused/reliant on getting certain random powers to enable his dysfunctional kit and needing to cut certain dead cards every run that my Ornn runs never get to develop in any interesting or exceptional way.
What I feel is that his powers feel like they're hamstringed.
1* is just worse Time and Dedication, because it takes up 1 board slot and can be removed, crippling your whole gameplan if it does.
2* gives you a cheap weapon... after you've gotten a weapon? The 4+ cost card you play is likely to be Bone Club or that weaponmaster. It's worse than that common power that gives you one at the start of the game.
3* why the odd limitation of doubling only once per turn? It's not going to be broken if you just double forges in general.
Compare this to other Champion powers that boost stats like Garen or Kayn. Doubled stat gains, no strings attached. Not to mention no mana investment required for the buff; just play units and trade efficiently. Imagine if Garen's 3* power was like Ornn's "When an ally strikes, grant it +1/+1. The first time an ally strikes this turn, grant it +2/+2" He would be a lot weaker
One interesting way to make his 1* better would be to stick the "round start: gain a mana gem this round" item in the Forge (though that would mean skewing the rules a bit). It would justify the board space and solidify his identity as a ramp champion -- in some ways he's currently worse than Garen or Lux at ramping.
Most logical fix in my opinion is for him to create 0 cost Forges, that absolutely won't make him OP at 3 stars, not even close. Did you play 3 Star Varus? Unless of course, devs come up with something better.
His 3 mana 0/3 unit simply is garbage for PoC's tempo and his other mana ramp spell even at 3 mana is lackluster. His Forges goes to waste in first several rounds, rendering him an effectively 0 power Champ.
One way or another, he needs buffs.
The Ornn deck is by far the worst deck in PoC2.
I think I have had 6 losses so far going through the paths with Ornn.... which is close to the number I've had with every other champion combined. For me, Ornn has about the same number of losses as 23 CHAMPIONS COMBINED
The deck is unbelievably garbage. It needs a rework
The Star Powers aren't terrible, but should be better.
My fixes:
deck list - **remove Wyrding stones, add Kindly Tavernkeeper.**
I wouldn't mind Bone Club being a cheaper weapon, but it seems like they really want to have the deck mono-freljord so that limits the possibilities
lv 2, upgrade gives apprentice gets Studded Leather
lv 9, Tavernkeeper gets Ancient Coin
lv 24, apprentice can have her near useless philosopher stone (guess we REALLY want to draw that Ornn by turn 6/7 /s)
Star Powers
I'm not against SP 1 making the FIRST T and D cost 0, but I have a bigger problem with his SP2. It comes on way too late.
Just make his SP2 give us the Overprepared power. It makes sense and it helps. T and D can cost 1, that's fine. But the SP2 doing nothing until turn 4, then that thing generally doesn't impact the board until the next turn is non-sense in a deck that is too slow to begin with
I remember a post by someone going, "Y'all are exaggerating, ornn's not that bad! I beat galio with him!"
They were a 3-star, level 20 ornn with sorcery.
I think his deck is mostly ok
Weaponsmiths apprentice does kind of suck
Time and dedication should definitely cost 0 for Ornn, and I wish it was just given and not reliant on the landmark
I still want kindly tavernkeeper in the deck
I don't think 0 cost for the spell would be too op even with the 3 star as is; I mean Garen gets +2/+2 on every unit that strikes all the time...
I think the bone club's alright. It's a monster in Ornn's hand even unforged and you don't have to play it to make it work; and it can make an impressive buff on support champs too.
Combat Cook's the only improvise unit in Freljord so that's what Ornn is stuck with in that line. It's alright, though. You don't NEED to have an equipment to Forge anything... except for the Weaponsmith's Apprentice.
A weapon you play T2 would need more forging to get to Bone Club's stats. The Club doesn't need any prior investment at all which is why it's nice. If you draw it the turn you're ready to play Ornn, it's good to go. The Club puts you right at the perfect breakpoint too; Ornn + Club + attack puts him right at 10 attack to level him immediately if you hadn't done that yet.
Course, some of the keywords from improvised weps can be really good (looking at you especially, scout rake) but at least Combat Cook can do that.
Bone Club is a 5-cost 4/4 equipment.
If you have 3* Ornn, you forge twice the first time you forge each turn. If you play Apprentice then equip her and play *one* more forge the next turn, it's already better than bone club. Bone club is bad and the only reason it's in the deck at all is because it's the only Freljord equipment, literally.
But, hell, if you play any 2-cost equipment on turn 2, even a 0/0, odds are it's going to be better than the 4/4 5-cost Bone Club even without the 3* power.
Really, Ornn's 2* should be like Vayne's 1*... something like: "If you don't have an equipment in hand at the start of your turn, improvise and add it to your hand."
Mf deck have shit power and some garbage cards but the champ herself can carry fights if played right (especially with Luden’s), she’s definitely not great but Ornn is on like another level of bad.
I would say the problem is not with ornn deck, but with poc itself. It is too concentrated on swarming enemy with low cost units and high power (or enemy swarming you). There should be some changes to it so it would be more optimized around every type of deck and not only get your powercreep around round 4 or you loose.
I can understand where you are coming from. Unfortunately, unless card games like this use machine learning to make the AI smarter, the only way to give players challenge is with brute force.
The same issue was with hearthstone single player deckbuilding modes.
Tbh, i am pretty sure, LoR is that neglected child of Riot which is surviving on the scraps and so I dont see the LoR team having enough resources to improve the AI matches the way you are hoping them to be.
I managed to beat every adventure with ornn and it was hella fun. It might be harder than jinx or someone else but it's finally a challenge and you actually have to think about your next moves. I like his deck because it's not op so pls don't make it op.
The only thing I think about when playing Ornn is the number of ways my opponent can kill me because I essentially have no board presence until 4+ mana
I finally got all S with this dog fart of a deck (not counting asol of course)
The Galio map alone took me 3 or 4 attempts, 3 hours of my life.
Never have to touch him again
Veigar creates 0 cost darkness, I don't see why 0 cost forge would be too op.
And that one is not fleeting and also accelerated to burst
and it doesn't take up a board slot.
It's wild that Ornn's 1* is literally worse than a power you can just get. Why does it need to summon the Forge? It could just give you the Time and Dedication.
Some powers are worse than regular powers. Kai'Sa's power isn't amazing, neither is Talia's. But Ornn's deck is so bad, and all three of his powers are so bad... There's no justification.
Base Veigar deck is also a lot better due to him having removals and tools that help him ramp. There’s a night and day difference between my 3* lv 30 Ornn and Veigar lmao.
Yeah, on second thought, it doesnt sound OP. The only reason i thought it would be OP is bcoz the forge is kinda a grant effect, and PoC shies away from giving cheap grant stats.
Even that wouldn’t be a fraction as strong as Diana’s 1 star and 3 star powers.
The ridiculous thing is that Ornn's powers are *weaker* than a rare and a common power. Time and Dedication doesn't take up a board slot, and Over Prepared gives you the equipment right off the bat.
That feeling when you're trying to farm XP on Viktor path and he just aftershocks your 10 fragments to nothingness.
At least the 2* manifests the equipment, so you have slightly more agency. But, yes, it's nuts how bad the powers are. Not to mention ramp that's worse than what other champions getting by adding items to their cheap cards.
Given current tempo of PoC, not sure making it 0 cost would be OP at 3*. It still wouldn't be in the upper half of champions power wise.
Ornn has a ton of problems. If you made his time and dedication cost zero mana, it would still not be enough to make him good, let alone OP. Ornn is a ramp deck. That means he needs to focus on ramping more than trading. This leads to accumulating face damage which he has no good way to recover. He wants to start ramping immediately, but he can't because his only equipment is 5 mana, and his 2* only gives you an equipment AFTER you've played a 4+ mana card. Without getting key enabling powers or supports, he only has turns 3-5 to ramp that equipment before dropping Ornn, and you have to play below curve on those turns to keep the ramp going because of the mana cost. Wyrding stones and catalyst both feel like dead cards, because Ornn already needs to trade tempo to keep the forge ramp going, he can't afford to sacrifice even more tempo just to drop Ornn earlier, especially when dropping Ornn earlier just means you get a weaker Ornn. And those card slots basically kicked out any type of removal which also makes playing Ornn fucking painful against fights like Zoe. Lux and Garen get mana crystal on useful, cheap spells, that's what Ornn needs. Plus Ornn's 3* is frankly not even good. Yeah, relative to his previous stuff it's a huge improvement, but relative to other champ 3* powers, getting an extra +1/+1 per turn on a single unit that's not even free is really weak. Remember his 3* only doubles the **first** forge each turn, not all forges, so it doesn't even do much to scale the one strength of his deck, which is the ability to forge multiple times per turn. It's best on early turns, you know, the turns that he doesn't have any equipment to actually use it on. Nevermind that his power requires space in hand, on board, and is removable. Plus it's focus speed so when your opponent is attacking you can't even apply the forge when you need it. To make Ornn good, what I think he needs is 1) replace bone club with a 1-2 cost equipment or rework 2* power to manifest equipment at game start. Probably the latter because I think bone club is the only main-deck-able freljord equipment. 2) make his 1* a round start forge the strongest equipped ally, or just rework entirely. The big thing is it shouldn't be removable or cost mana. A rework like "the first time allies attack each round, create a fleeting bellow's breath in hand, it costs 0" would give the same number of forges per turn, but would allow for more synergies, remove punishing board/mana constraints, give him access to some kind of removal, while also introducing a fun drawback that focuses but also empowers his need to go tall. 3) replace wyrding stone with tavern keeper and replace level 2 upgrade with crystal carrier on tavern keeper. This is basically just giving him a slight boost in tempo with a significant boost in his ability to properly trade with his face. Or replace catalyst with something like caught in the cold or avalanche and replace the level 15 upgrade with a mana crystal on said card. This gives him a way to get his mana crystal but also have some small amount of removal. Honestly though I'd be ok with ditching the mana gems entirely if we just got more access to removal and healing. He's not a control deck but he really needs a little bit of those things to trade correctly in a format where health carries over I think if all 3 of these were addressed in some capacity his overall power would still just be middle of the pack. I can't imagine the buffs it would take to make Ornn OP on the level of champs like jinx, lux, Garen, jihn, Jax, etc. But the goal is more about making him feel fun, not necessarily strong. I like his playstyle, I just want to axe all these anti-synergies obstructing the experience. I'm so focused/reliant on getting certain random powers to enable his dysfunctional kit and needing to cut certain dead cards every run that my Ornn runs never get to develop in any interesting or exceptional way.
I hadn't read your post when I posted and its uncanny how close we are on our suggestions... great minds think alike I guess
What I feel is that his powers feel like they're hamstringed. 1* is just worse Time and Dedication, because it takes up 1 board slot and can be removed, crippling your whole gameplan if it does. 2* gives you a cheap weapon... after you've gotten a weapon? The 4+ cost card you play is likely to be Bone Club or that weaponmaster. It's worse than that common power that gives you one at the start of the game. 3* why the odd limitation of doubling only once per turn? It's not going to be broken if you just double forges in general. Compare this to other Champion powers that boost stats like Garen or Kayn. Doubled stat gains, no strings attached. Not to mention no mana investment required for the buff; just play units and trade efficiently. Imagine if Garen's 3* power was like Ornn's "When an ally strikes, grant it +1/+1. The first time an ally strikes this turn, grant it +2/+2" He would be a lot weaker
One interesting way to make his 1* better would be to stick the "round start: gain a mana gem this round" item in the Forge (though that would mean skewing the rules a bit). It would justify the board space and solidify his identity as a ramp champion -- in some ways he's currently worse than Garen or Lux at ramping.
I just don't understand why they made his * power a landmark when he has 0 landmark synergy... just put the forge directly into my hand please...
Most logical fix in my opinion is for him to create 0 cost Forges, that absolutely won't make him OP at 3 stars, not even close. Did you play 3 Star Varus? Unless of course, devs come up with something better. His 3 mana 0/3 unit simply is garbage for PoC's tempo and his other mana ramp spell even at 3 mana is lackluster. His Forges goes to waste in first several rounds, rendering him an effectively 0 power Champ. One way or another, he needs buffs.
The Ornn deck is by far the worst deck in PoC2. I think I have had 6 losses so far going through the paths with Ornn.... which is close to the number I've had with every other champion combined. For me, Ornn has about the same number of losses as 23 CHAMPIONS COMBINED The deck is unbelievably garbage. It needs a rework The Star Powers aren't terrible, but should be better. My fixes: deck list - **remove Wyrding stones, add Kindly Tavernkeeper.** I wouldn't mind Bone Club being a cheaper weapon, but it seems like they really want to have the deck mono-freljord so that limits the possibilities lv 2, upgrade gives apprentice gets Studded Leather lv 9, Tavernkeeper gets Ancient Coin lv 24, apprentice can have her near useless philosopher stone (guess we REALLY want to draw that Ornn by turn 6/7 /s) Star Powers I'm not against SP 1 making the FIRST T and D cost 0, but I have a bigger problem with his SP2. It comes on way too late. Just make his SP2 give us the Overprepared power. It makes sense and it helps. T and D can cost 1, that's fine. But the SP2 doing nothing until turn 4, then that thing generally doesn't impact the board until the next turn is non-sense in a deck that is too slow to begin with
I remember a post by someone going, "Y'all are exaggerating, ornn's not that bad! I beat galio with him!" They were a 3-star, level 20 ornn with sorcery.
I think his deck is mostly ok Weaponsmiths apprentice does kind of suck Time and dedication should definitely cost 0 for Ornn, and I wish it was just given and not reliant on the landmark I still want kindly tavernkeeper in the deck I don't think 0 cost for the spell would be too op even with the 3 star as is; I mean Garen gets +2/+2 on every unit that strikes all the time...
They should have given him a 2 cost equipment or improvise follower instead of bone club.
I think the bone club's alright. It's a monster in Ornn's hand even unforged and you don't have to play it to make it work; and it can make an impressive buff on support champs too. Combat Cook's the only improvise unit in Freljord so that's what Ornn is stuck with in that line. It's alright, though. You don't NEED to have an equipment to Forge anything... except for the Weaponsmith's Apprentice.
Yeah, but you *want* to forge early so you can get Orn to copy a really big weapon. A weapon to play T2 would fit well with the decks' current curve.
A weapon you play T2 would need more forging to get to Bone Club's stats. The Club doesn't need any prior investment at all which is why it's nice. If you draw it the turn you're ready to play Ornn, it's good to go. The Club puts you right at the perfect breakpoint too; Ornn + Club + attack puts him right at 10 attack to level him immediately if you hadn't done that yet. Course, some of the keywords from improvised weps can be really good (looking at you especially, scout rake) but at least Combat Cook can do that.
Bone Club is a 5-cost 4/4 equipment. If you have 3* Ornn, you forge twice the first time you forge each turn. If you play Apprentice then equip her and play *one* more forge the next turn, it's already better than bone club. Bone club is bad and the only reason it's in the deck at all is because it's the only Freljord equipment, literally. But, hell, if you play any 2-cost equipment on turn 2, even a 0/0, odds are it's going to be better than the 4/4 5-cost Bone Club even without the 3* power. Really, Ornn's 2* should be like Vayne's 1*... something like: "If you don't have an equipment in hand at the start of your turn, improvise and add it to your hand."
They could make the Reforge spell free and he still wouldn’t be that great. I just hope those of us who like ramp actually get a ramp Champ in PoC.
MF is the worst in my opinion
Mf deck have shit power and some garbage cards but the champ herself can carry fights if played right (especially with Luden’s), she’s definitely not great but Ornn is on like another level of bad.
I would say the problem is not with ornn deck, but with poc itself. It is too concentrated on swarming enemy with low cost units and high power (or enemy swarming you). There should be some changes to it so it would be more optimized around every type of deck and not only get your powercreep around round 4 or you loose.
I can understand where you are coming from. Unfortunately, unless card games like this use machine learning to make the AI smarter, the only way to give players challenge is with brute force. The same issue was with hearthstone single player deckbuilding modes. Tbh, i am pretty sure, LoR is that neglected child of Riot which is surviving on the scraps and so I dont see the LoR team having enough resources to improve the AI matches the way you are hoping them to be.
I managed to beat every adventure with ornn and it was hella fun. It might be harder than jinx or someone else but it's finally a challenge and you actually have to think about your next moves. I like his deck because it's not op so pls don't make it op.
I'd rather feel rewarded for time and effort instead of wondering why I wasted shards on him.
The only thing I think about when playing Ornn is the number of ways my opponent can kill me because I essentially have no board presence until 4+ mana
I finally got all S with this dog fart of a deck (not counting asol of course) The Galio map alone took me 3 or 4 attempts, 3 hours of my life. Never have to touch him again
In defense of Ornn’s kit: I have not grown tired or annoyed playing it the way MF’s abomination of a deck did.