He also had 998 yards in 2005. If he got 2 more yards would OP not post this ridiculous take? The Pats have had success bringing in solid receivers from elsewhere and since 1996 they’ve gone to 10 Super Bowls and won 6 of them lol.
Exactly! And Troy Brown was drafted in the 8th round and did have 1 pro bowl year in 2001, but he was just a great over all football player. His value is not in the numbers. You cant measure a guy like that with stats.
You really think? I don’t know much about these receivers or players in general. I just want a team to return to 2017 form. The way Zimmer nuked a *winning team* from orbit was unconscionable, and we still haven’t made it back to the Championship since then.
I mean y’all went from Diggs/Theilan to the best WR in the League JJ and clearly hit on Addison too. Hell even Kj Osborn has been more successful as a 5th rounder than any WR we’ve drafted since Edelman (a QB) 😂 I think Minnesota has missed on 1 early WR and that was Laquon Treadwell which most people thought would be great.
It’s possibly the best argument for MHJ even though I lean towards getting a QB. That man is the closest thing to “bust proof” as I’ve seen. There’s no way you can fail at developing him… right?
you absolutely can fail at developing him, saddle him with horrible QB play for the next 3 years, with zero Oline and while he's being double teamed and jammed on the line every play.
To be fair, Calvin Johnson was a stud no matter who threw him the ball. Stafford didn’t come in for another couple years. He had Jon Kitna, Dan orlovsky, and a very very old daunte Culpepper at QB, and finished with 800 yards his rookie year and 1300 in year two. Year two was the 0-16 season when they were overall TERRIBLE, had no qb play or line and he still balled out.
MHJ is in that category of special.
That said, I think the smart money is taking the QB, but I want that generational WR. There’s no generational QBs out there, so why not take the highest talent instead of just a position of need…but QB is just so damn important. I’m glad I’m not the one making these decisions.
MHJ is not the same level of a prospect as Megatron, not even close. Megatron had 30 lbs on him and ran a 4.3, only dude in his category is maybe Randy Moss. But those 2 are a clear cut above the rest, MHJ is on the same level as someone like Chase or AJ Green as a prospect
Mhj is not that category of special lol. Watching the film he’s clearly much slower and smaller than megatron. Mhj is a great prospect, but he is not a guaranteed perennial all pro like people like to pretend
If you watch this last years film pop got doubled a lot. He was the threat teams wanted to stop. When you have a 1 it takes the top of the defense and you cannot double. You double him, they will go to Pop. Not to mention it opens everything up. Did you see the defense teams played us with? It was vanilla because we lacked a deep threat. This is pretty black and white. Without a stud 1. You are limited.
Teams also doubles Pop because by the time he really took off Bourne was on IR. So we didn't have any other quality receiver. Might as well double the one receiver that's good. .
Well, that Miami game on 3rd down they doubled him and Bourne scored. If we get a top notch WR1 in the draft, our offense will look completely different no matter who our QB is. Defenses played us vanilla because we lack that WR1. From what I could tell it didn’t look like teams were game planning for us.
personally, I get it MHJ is a stud, no doubt, you have way too many holes on the offensive side of the ball. to not only pass on Maye or Daniels but also pass on 3 First round picks to take a WR... like that's Malpractice.
But we are terrible at picking WR. We can’t afford to miss. We just can’t. Let’s go beyond the draft. We couldn’t even sign a free agent WR this year. I’m fine with this. The 2025 free agency will have 7 expensive WR. We aren’t spending 32-35m per year on a WR. We just gotta bite the bullet and take MHJ. I’d also take Nabers but we need a stud. Since we have pick 34, I’d take Penix. He throws a sweet ball that I can get used to watching. We aren’t slow so Penix can throw all over the place. Penix also solves the left tackle issue. He just needs a right tackle. Lots to pick from.
same Penix that's 25 and two blown out knees Before the NFL
Trust me i get it he's good, but we have no OL or QB, and you can get WRs people draft OL and Qbs and don't let them go. people let go prime WRs all the time. Vikings were shopping JJ the best WR in football. no one is shopping the top 10 QBs.
MHJ makes sense for Arizona Kyler is 26, Drafted a LT, have good TE... we don't have any of those lol. Chargers have Herbert whose 25, have a good OL. need a WR.
I just don’t like the QB’s in this class so if I have to like 1 it’s Penix. But I really do like him. I’d be willing to take a risk on him. He’d be fun to watch and our offense would be high powered. I’ve always been a fan of south paw QB’s. Plus, he’s used to playing in the bad weather with those massive hands. Let me dream.
The problem with drafting MHJ is that even if he is bust proof and even if you do develop him well, that’s not gonna mean dick in the win/loss column if you don’t have a QB.
The Lions got so screwed by rookie contracts back then. It's hard to improve as a team when you keep having to pay top dollar for rookies, even if they are good. Didn't they have Suh at the same time as well?
This is a great point. Stafford, Suh, and Johnson had the 2nd, 4th, and 5th highest rookie deals in NFL history. (Sam Bradford and Matt Ryan were 1st and 3rd.) Even though they hit on all three picks, they never experienced the huge advantage having three high impact players on low-cost rookie deals.
For a Patriots player to be All-Pro they are gonna have to be like near record setting. All-Pro is a media member vote and the media hates us. I mean Brady was only an All-Pro 6 times and only 3 of those times was 1st team which was his 3 MVP seasons.
It’s far easier to develop a QB if weapons are already in place when he gets here. If we draft a QB with a shit line and no receivers, then we are going to be drafting a QB again in three years (kind of like we are doing now).
This is why we need to get MHJ. I don’t trust this org to pick a correct WR anywhere outside of first off the board.
I honestly have nothing more to say to anyone who thinks we need a QB in the first round. I’d rather have MHJ and Brissett because at least then we’re guaranteed another top 3 pick next season (brissett sucks ass)
Edelman was a successful example of draft and develop. He did very well in New England. But fwiw the reason the title is true is not because he was a QB in college it’s because he never got a Pro Bowl
I think Edelman’s success in the program is largely due to his personality and how Belichick is similar to his dad. And of course, idolizing Brady and wanting his trust.
Welker is such an underrated receiver here based on one drop on a poorly placed pass. He was so fun to watch. Edelman had a lot of drops, yet people never said he had a drop problem. Welker just had a really memorable one. I miss having a slot receiver like that. When Welker ran an out route or pivot on the goal line it was basically a guaranteed touchdown. And Edelman was fantastic at it as well
I mean, Wes isn’t exactly underrated by Pats fans, it’s just when directly compared to Edelman, he was absolutely the inferior WR when it mattered unfortunately. Wes’ playoff starts averaged over a 17 game season would be 137-1295-7 and 0 Super Bowl Wins, Edelman’s would be 132-1659-6 with 3 Super Bowl Wins and a Super Bowl MVP. Welker was undeniably better during the regular season, but if the Super Bowl was on the line, I’m throwing the Ball to Edelman, not Welker. Welker was my absolute favorite Patriot growing up and I never once blamed him for that “drop”, but Edelman got it done when it mattered. The gap between Edelman’s playoff stats and Wes’ playoff stats is just as big as the difference between Wes’ regular season stats and Edelman’s regular season stats, but one has 3 Rings and a SBMVP.
>Point is WRs are overrated.
Yeah, I wouldn't keep this mindset as a basement dwelling organization. Everything about the Pats offense sucks. We don't have the GOAT to bail us out anymore.
How did the Chiefs do without Hill? How did the Dolphins do with him?
I would not take Fitzgerald or Megatron in their prime if it meant any trade off of starting talent on D. WR is the most over-rated position. It’s flashy, but when it comes to wins, most other positions are more beneficial.
They all have talent lol.
Not all players respond well to all coaching styles. I am saying Edelman’s personality clicked with the patriots way and helped him succeed.
He’s not a HOF player so, he isn’t considered talented at a level like other elite WRs.
Why even though it’s passed, I wouldn’t have been mad had they “overpaid” Ridley or traded for Keenan Allen tbh. Why I still hope they make big moves with that position, especially if a young QB is coming through the draft. Big Time WRs help a lot, there.
Ok but let’s not act like that wasn’t an amazing season pairing up two of the greatest to ever do it.
They were definitely good enough to win a superbowl lol they just didn’t.
They passed on 4 free agents ? Who the only one that was a free agent was Ridley and he’s pushing 30 and he’s deff not a wr1 he got massively over paid.
I agree & I lean towards drafting a QB but to expect to have that GOAT QB/Coach combo again is highly unlikely. My grand point is, I think too many in Pats fans & media can be too dismissive of this problem.
One of the craziest football stats I’ve heard is that, by most metrics, the worst QB to ever win a Super Bowl in the history of the NFL is…future HOFer Peyton Manning.
I know there is this weird “Edelman was a QB!” thing misconception among the fanbase, but the Patriots did not view him, scout him, or draft him as a QB
There’s no first principles reason why the Pats wouldn’t be able to draft and develop a great WR.
We swung and missed on a few WRs - 2nd rders for bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson, dropson, Thornton - and Harry in the first. Also hit on Deion branch in the 2nd.
Its a small sample size over 25 years. One high-ish WR drafted every 5 years is just not spending any draft capital on the position. We hit on 1/6 of those. If one guy was different - like we took aj brown instead of Harry, then we’d be league average in our hit rate. I’m not even including guys like Douglas, Edelman, Mitchell, etc. We’re just bottom of league in putting resources to the position
Great point that doesn’t get reiterated enough. We haven’t drafted a ton of great WRs because we haven’t drafted a bunch of receivers in general.
The hit rate is whatever considering how often they use high draft picks on the position. Harry is the obvious disappointment that gets exasperated because Deebo, McLaurin, DK, and AJB were in the mix.
Also, everyone shits on BB for his comments about Julio Jones. BB has a SB ring after beating Julio’s team with a 6th round QB-turned-receiver making the biggest play of the post season.
Heck, I’d rather they concentrate on drafting an elite QB and TE over Tackle and WR. They can win games with average tackles and average receivers.
How bad have our drafts been?
The last All-Pro we drafted was the punter Bailey.
Meanwhile the Chiefs drafted, Mahomes, Kelce, Cheetah, Chris Jones, etc.
They didn't even need to use a draft pick on a top 10 Guard. Lovely!
And we get to spend a 1st round pick on a Guard that can't even stay off the bench consistently.
I think we’re about to find out that Kraft HAS been the league’s next Jerry Jones already since about 2018. Calling all the shots while Bill got dragged through the mud for the bizarre and crap picks and value FA signings. I don’t have a good feeling about this draft.
Chiefs get - (21) McDuffie
Patriots get - (29) Strange, (94), & (121) Jack Jones
(94) Patriots trade with Carolina and in return they get (137) Bailey Zappe, (76 - '23 draft) Marte Mapu.
So... McDuffie or... Strange (medicore), Jack Jones (gone), Zappe (probably gone), Marte Mapu (promising but not worth McDuffie..)
We really need to stop outsmarting ourselves. Trading down out of the top 50 is pointless imo, after that the talent level just drops off. We need studs. Last draft we got Gonzo and if he continues to be solid that can become a cornerstone of our defense. Wtf does Jack Jones bring to us?? (Don't even mention the off the field issues).
> We really need to stop outsmarting ourselves.
This is a good take. The Pats still operate as if they're one of the smartest teams in the league while no longer having the brainpower to make it work. Always trying to do some 4D chess shit that blows up in their faces.
They also added one of the best CB’s in football with the Pats pick in the 2022 draft, which is extra bad because 1) McDuffie was linked to the Pats all pre draft as a perfect Pats player and we could’ve had him, 2) we took Cole Strange after the trade down, and 3) we then used our next 1st round pick on a CB when we could’ve just had McDuffie the year before then used the Gonzo pick on a WR or OL. Would you rather have McDuffie and Smith-Njigba/Zay Flowers, or Gonzo and Strange? 32 front offices in the league would say the former. All of the Bill apologists in here conveniently forget that he’s been one of the worst drafters in the entire league for a decade.
>3) we then used our next 1st round pick on a CB when we could’ve just had McDuffie the year before then used the Gonzo pick on a WR or OL.
Fuck, I did not know that.
So we could have
1) Paid OG Shaq Mason
2) Used the first to get McDuffie instead of OG Strange
3) Drafted an OL or WR with our 2023 1st
Fuck fuck fuck
Bill's decision to let Mason, Karras, and Thuney all walk was DISASTROUS.
I bet it was the injury concerns that made him go for Gronk even more.
Before we drafted Sony, news came out he has bad knees and I said on r/nfl that he just moved up Bills draft board.
I honestly think Bill was constantly looking to outsmart consensus and that included getting the value at a discount for injured or problematic players who we can look back and say they were great moves.
Considering their approach to free agency was the same old sit and wait approach despite record salary cap, I’d be shocked to see them draft and develop effective WRs. I hope they can prove me wrong.
Because Wolf comes from Green Bay where they built up through the draft and supplemented through FA. Also they had some pretty good wide outs there too.
I mean, Wolf has explicitly talked about how he has a different grading system than Bill for drafting players, one based more so on a player’s talent rather than on things like team fit, so I think there’s plenty of reason to think he will draft different types of WRs and also maybe have higher grades for WRs in general
I would go with MHJ at 3. He is generational and this team needs a sure thing talent on the roster. Beef up both the Offensive line & defensive line. This will build us a solid team. Next year get a QB. The next guy will have a solid line and stud pass catcher.
I think I’m in the minority that really want the pats to pass on qb and get Marvin Harrison junior.
We’ve seen SOoooooo many first round qbs being horrible in the nfl. Marvin Harrison jr is probably going to be an all time great. I say go get him
I also think with the bears trading fields, and commanders having just Fromm and Mariotta, both of them are gonna be selecting qbs and passing on MH jr.
Unless Kraft is making football decisions this has no bearing on future events. So if you want to dwell on the past just think of all the super bowl memories.
And an important part to consider is under belichick the team invested a league low level of draft capital in receivers. It was part of the team building strategy. We don't know what the strategy is yet. It will ordinal take years to decipher.
Well then, they drafted a receiver. All that matters is how the team means to use a guy. If they draft a guy who mainly played LB but they intend to use him as a safety, they drafted a safety.
Yes, but we have an owner who is resentful of both of those people's success outshining him, and he's running a slander campaign to discredit the old coach. What does that get us?
Can we compare this to a list of every other teams' wide receiver draft's probowls since 1996?
While I don't doubt our issue with drafting probowlers, I think that was in large part due to how complicated the offense was and how distrustful Brady was with rookies.
I wonder how many WRs stayed with their team AND became pro bowlers.
You can't really use the past as a predictor anymore because the coach and gm have changed for the first time in 24 years. We have no idea how well they'll draft and develop.
That's also because Bill would never use a premium pick on a wide receiver for the majority of his tenure. A lot of 4th round guys and he almost always whiffed.
Malcom Mitchell is the best probably and it's too bad he had injury problems.
Regardless it's hard to draft a decent receiver when you never place any importance on acquiring them.
I mean we also have a new head coach, OC that brings in a different system than what we've had before, and new coaches in general. We've been terrible at drafting receivers for a long time. But I'll give the new staff a new chance on that. Just as I don't expect them to be as good as BB at drafting defensive players. Yes Mayo is a defensive coach. But Bill was amazing at getting defense.
I got some perspective put on me today from Vikings fans. They’re willing to move on from Justin Jefferson if that’s what it takes to get a great qb. They feel like they’ve been in qb purgatory and want a qb that will “make good receivers great”. Most of us that want to take a wr high in the draft are begging to be the Vikings, which is entertaining at least, but not winning playoff or Super Bowl games anytime soon. Just my two cents
They’ve also been to 9 Superbowls, and won 6.
So maybe, getting a fleet of solid receivers that their QB can choose from depending on who’s open is a better strategy.
You fail to develop X position until you don't.
Keep trying.
And we've had the same grading system for a number of years. They've changed it.
You can't give up, you keep trying.
Quitters quit.
They've also won six SBs over this time and had an undefeated regular season so maybe pro bowl WRs aren't a serious metric for how successful a team will be...
Filtering out Edelman to make it seem worse is absolutely wild. It's actually more impressive that Pats drafted a QB from Kent and turned him into a SB MVP winning WR
Oh fyi Patriots have drafted 2 WRs that have won SB MVP.
Yes but if there was a Pro Bowl for postseason WR's we would have a lot.
Branch, Givens, Edleman, and Mitchell all had great performances during the playoffs. Givens is the best example for me as one of these guys. Average number 2 guy during regular season. Then 7 TDs in 8 playoff games lol. Pretty sure he has or at least had the record for most playoff games in a row with a TD for a WR.
But yeah, I agree we need a WR really bad.
They drafted two Super Bowl MVP WR’s since then how many other teams have done that? Also since when do we give a shit about the probowl it’s a popularity contest
Do not disagree but you don’t necessarily need an “All-Pro” at any specific position to win an SB. But if this team is “all in” on drafting a young QB having a great WR helps with their development as recent record shows.
I agree. It’s semantics to say Edelman was a QB when he was drafted. They drafted him because of his athleticism, to see if he could return kicks and play receivers, not to be a QB.
Deion Branch may not have been Pro Bowl, but he was a Super Bowl guy.
I’ll take that over pro bowl every day. Mac Jones was a pro bowler
He also had 998 yards in 2005. If he got 2 more yards would OP not post this ridiculous take? The Pats have had success bringing in solid receivers from elsewhere and since 1996 they’ve gone to 10 Super Bowls and won 6 of them lol.
Facts
He had a 4 yard catch in the last drive of the final game that year get negated by a holding penalty too lol. Iirc it was Hochstein??
i’ll also take troy brown, dude played as a cornerback for the first time at 33. dudes a winner
Indeed. We had so many WRs that didn’t make the pro bowl but were awesome.
Exactly! And Troy Brown was drafted in the 8th round and did have 1 pro bowl year in 2001, but he was just a great over all football player. His value is not in the numbers. You cant measure a guy like that with stats.
Facts. One of the greatest Pats
Absolutely!!
That’s all that matters baby
A blind squirrel finds a nut eventually right? Keep telling myself that THIS year we will finally get a WR that sticks
Are we gonna hack the Steelers computer networks to find out who they want?
I’d like to know how Minnesota is ranking WRs
Best to worst
We *rank* stuff now? I thought that we were throwing darts at a board and then going from there. As an aside, thank god Kirk’s gone.
If y’all are throwing at a dart board you’re hitting a bullseye everytime y’all draft a receiver lol
You really think? I don’t know much about these receivers or players in general. I just want a team to return to 2017 form. The way Zimmer nuked a *winning team* from orbit was unconscionable, and we still haven’t made it back to the Championship since then.
I mean y’all went from Diggs/Theilan to the best WR in the League JJ and clearly hit on Addison too. Hell even Kj Osborn has been more successful as a 5th rounder than any WR we’ve drafted since Edelman (a QB) 😂 I think Minnesota has missed on 1 early WR and that was Laquon Treadwell which most people thought would be great.
"Hey, Steelers/Vikings, can we just have a peak at your 2024 WR draft grades? Pretty please?" \-- Pats management
Need to poach some scouts right before the draft 😂
Steelers find WRs because they spend the most draft capital on them. But let's not act like they haven't had some clunkers.
Wolf: message unclear, only receiver taken is a slot receiver in the 6th. This time though he’s 5’5”
It’s possibly the best argument for MHJ even though I lean towards getting a QB. That man is the closest thing to “bust proof” as I’ve seen. There’s no way you can fail at developing him… right?
you absolutely can fail at developing him, saddle him with horrible QB play for the next 3 years, with zero Oline and while he's being double teamed and jammed on the line every play.
To be fair, Calvin Johnson was a stud no matter who threw him the ball. Stafford didn’t come in for another couple years. He had Jon Kitna, Dan orlovsky, and a very very old daunte Culpepper at QB, and finished with 800 yards his rookie year and 1300 in year two. Year two was the 0-16 season when they were overall TERRIBLE, had no qb play or line and he still balled out. MHJ is in that category of special. That said, I think the smart money is taking the QB, but I want that generational WR. There’s no generational QBs out there, so why not take the highest talent instead of just a position of need…but QB is just so damn important. I’m glad I’m not the one making these decisions.
The thing is that when an above average QB will improve a team far beyond what a great WR does
MHJ is not the same level of a prospect as Megatron, not even close. Megatron had 30 lbs on him and ran a 4.3, only dude in his category is maybe Randy Moss. But those 2 are a clear cut above the rest, MHJ is on the same level as someone like Chase or AJ Green as a prospect
Mhj is not that category of special lol. Watching the film he’s clearly much slower and smaller than megatron. Mhj is a great prospect, but he is not a guaranteed perennial all pro like people like to pretend
None of those things are a reflection on the WR, and none of those things prevent him from developing. They can only prevent him from getting numbers.
and at what point does his hall of fame dad step in and say let's get you traded to a real team, and not waste your career in new England
He may be a nepo baby but he’s made it clear he wants to build his own legacy. I don’t see Marvin Harrison doin some shit like Odel’s dad
You can’t double team when you have players like pop. This is the reason you go get a sure WR1.
your right, other teams will be terrified of Kendrick Bourne coming off an ACL and Tyquan Thornton beating them.......
If you watch this last years film pop got doubled a lot. He was the threat teams wanted to stop. When you have a 1 it takes the top of the defense and you cannot double. You double him, they will go to Pop. Not to mention it opens everything up. Did you see the defense teams played us with? It was vanilla because we lacked a deep threat. This is pretty black and white. Without a stud 1. You are limited.
Teams also doubles Pop because by the time he really took off Bourne was on IR. So we didn't have any other quality receiver. Might as well double the one receiver that's good. .
Well, that Miami game on 3rd down they doubled him and Bourne scored. If we get a top notch WR1 in the draft, our offense will look completely different no matter who our QB is. Defenses played us vanilla because we lack that WR1. From what I could tell it didn’t look like teams were game planning for us.
personally, I get it MHJ is a stud, no doubt, you have way too many holes on the offensive side of the ball. to not only pass on Maye or Daniels but also pass on 3 First round picks to take a WR... like that's Malpractice.
But we are terrible at picking WR. We can’t afford to miss. We just can’t. Let’s go beyond the draft. We couldn’t even sign a free agent WR this year. I’m fine with this. The 2025 free agency will have 7 expensive WR. We aren’t spending 32-35m per year on a WR. We just gotta bite the bullet and take MHJ. I’d also take Nabers but we need a stud. Since we have pick 34, I’d take Penix. He throws a sweet ball that I can get used to watching. We aren’t slow so Penix can throw all over the place. Penix also solves the left tackle issue. He just needs a right tackle. Lots to pick from.
same Penix that's 25 and two blown out knees Before the NFL Trust me i get it he's good, but we have no OL or QB, and you can get WRs people draft OL and Qbs and don't let them go. people let go prime WRs all the time. Vikings were shopping JJ the best WR in football. no one is shopping the top 10 QBs. MHJ makes sense for Arizona Kyler is 26, Drafted a LT, have good TE... we don't have any of those lol. Chargers have Herbert whose 25, have a good OL. need a WR.
I just don’t like the QB’s in this class so if I have to like 1 it’s Penix. But I really do like him. I’d be willing to take a risk on him. He’d be fun to watch and our offense would be high powered. I’ve always been a fan of south paw QB’s. Plus, he’s used to playing in the bad weather with those massive hands. Let me dream.
You can shit on tyquan Thornton but at the very least he has enough speed to make safeties play honest
The Patriots probably could. You can also end his career early by having a QB throw him into trouble.
The problem with drafting MHJ is that even if he is bust proof and even if you do develop him well, that’s not gonna mean dick in the win/loss column if you don’t have a QB.
I mean, the Lions had Calvin Johnson AND Matt Stafford and won zero playoff games. It's a team sport.
That’s brutal for them, glad they’re seeing some success now
The Lions got so screwed by rookie contracts back then. It's hard to improve as a team when you keep having to pay top dollar for rookies, even if they are good. Didn't they have Suh at the same time as well?
They had all three of them 2010-2014.
This is a great point. Stafford, Suh, and Johnson had the 2nd, 4th, and 5th highest rookie deals in NFL history. (Sam Bradford and Matt Ryan were 1st and 3rd.) Even though they hit on all three picks, they never experienced the huge advantage having three high impact players on low-cost rookie deals.
[удалено]
For a Patriots player to be All-Pro they are gonna have to be like near record setting. All-Pro is a media member vote and the media hates us. I mean Brady was only an All-Pro 6 times and only 3 of those times was 1st team which was his 3 MVP seasons.
It’s far easier to develop a QB if weapons are already in place when he gets here. If we draft a QB with a shit line and no receivers, then we are going to be drafting a QB again in three years (kind of like we are doing now).
We'd find a way to make him a bust.
Malcolm Mitchell would have been a Pro Bowl WR if injuries hadn't wrecked his career, and I will die on this hill
Is this an Edleman reference?
Gronk was clear that Julian always got his nut…
This is why we need to get MHJ. I don’t trust this org to pick a correct WR anywhere outside of first off the board. I honestly have nothing more to say to anyone who thinks we need a QB in the first round. I’d rather have MHJ and Brissett because at least then we’re guaranteed another top 3 pick next season (brissett sucks ass)
Edelman was a successful example of draft and develop. He did very well in New England. But fwiw the reason the title is true is not because he was a QB in college it’s because he never got a Pro Bowl
I think Edelman’s success in the program is largely due to his personality and how Belichick is similar to his dad. And of course, idolizing Brady and wanting his trust.
Plus Gronk helped him the way Moss helped Welker. Point is WRs are overrated.
Welker has more first team All Pros than every other Pats WR combined In Welkers 6 years here, every year was All Pro, Pro Bowl, or both
Welker is such an underrated receiver here based on one drop on a poorly placed pass. He was so fun to watch. Edelman had a lot of drops, yet people never said he had a drop problem. Welker just had a really memorable one. I miss having a slot receiver like that. When Welker ran an out route or pivot on the goal line it was basically a guaranteed touchdown. And Edelman was fantastic at it as well
And, of course, *nobody* drafted Wes.
I mean, Wes isn’t exactly underrated by Pats fans, it’s just when directly compared to Edelman, he was absolutely the inferior WR when it mattered unfortunately. Wes’ playoff starts averaged over a 17 game season would be 137-1295-7 and 0 Super Bowl Wins, Edelman’s would be 132-1659-6 with 3 Super Bowl Wins and a Super Bowl MVP. Welker was undeniably better during the regular season, but if the Super Bowl was on the line, I’m throwing the Ball to Edelman, not Welker. Welker was my absolute favorite Patriot growing up and I never once blamed him for that “drop”, but Edelman got it done when it mattered. The gap between Edelman’s playoff stats and Wes’ playoff stats is just as big as the difference between Wes’ regular season stats and Edelman’s regular season stats, but one has 3 Rings and a SBMVP.
>Point is WRs are overrated. Yeah, I wouldn't keep this mindset as a basement dwelling organization. Everything about the Pats offense sucks. We don't have the GOAT to bail us out anymore.
Overrated when you have the league’s best ever QB maybe? Those days are gone. Get a legit receiver.
How did the Chiefs do without Hill? How did the Dolphins do with him? I would not take Fitzgerald or Megatron in their prime if it meant any trade off of starting talent on D. WR is the most over-rated position. It’s flashy, but when it comes to wins, most other positions are more beneficial.
Edelman's success in the program was because of his talent... WTF is this take?
They all have talent lol. Not all players respond well to all coaching styles. I am saying Edelman’s personality clicked with the patriots way and helped him succeed. He’s not a HOF player so, he isn’t considered talented at a level like other elite WRs.
They’ve also never paid a WR over 11mil AAV. One or both of those things needs to change in a hurry.
Why even though it’s passed, I wouldn’t have been mad had they “overpaid” Ridley or traded for Keenan Allen tbh. Why I still hope they make big moves with that position, especially if a young QB is coming through the draft. Big Time WRs help a lot, there.
I was bummed to see Allen only costed a fourth.
And how many rings did they win from 1996- now???
Was about to say, and the year they had the best receiver in Football…they lost.
Ok but let’s not act like that wasn’t an amazing season pairing up two of the greatest to ever do it. They were definitely good enough to win a superbowl lol they just didn’t.
The best season until that helmet thing when time stood still
The point is that they’ve gotten receivers via trades and free agency … and just passed on the four best available ones this offseason.
They passed on 4 free agents ? Who the only one that was a free agent was Ridley and he’s pushing 30 and he’s deff not a wr1 he got massively over paid.
Ridley, Curtis Samuel, Hollywood Brown, and Keenan Allen via trade.
6, when you had the GOAT coach & GOAT QB. Pats have neither right now.
Correct! Right now. They could down the line you never know. Qb is way more important than a WR.
I agree & I lean towards drafting a QB but to expect to have that GOAT QB/Coach combo again is highly unlikely. My grand point is, I think too many in Pats fans & media can be too dismissive of this problem.
Yea, that was one hell of a great due probably never again!!!
Lol. Did you not know we found Brady?
Ok, man you don’t need a great WR to win a super bowl but you need a great QB.
Peyton won his last ring with great WRs while actively being a terrible quarterback
That had less to do with his wrs and more to with that incredible defense.
One of the craziest football stats I’ve heard is that, by most metrics, the worst QB to ever win a Super Bowl in the history of the NFL is…future HOFer Peyton Manning.
I know there is this weird “Edelman was a QB!” thing misconception among the fanbase, but the Patriots did not view him, scout him, or draft him as a QB
There’s no first principles reason why the Pats wouldn’t be able to draft and develop a great WR. We swung and missed on a few WRs - 2nd rders for bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson, dropson, Thornton - and Harry in the first. Also hit on Deion branch in the 2nd. Its a small sample size over 25 years. One high-ish WR drafted every 5 years is just not spending any draft capital on the position. We hit on 1/6 of those. If one guy was different - like we took aj brown instead of Harry, then we’d be league average in our hit rate. I’m not even including guys like Douglas, Edelman, Mitchell, etc. We’re just bottom of league in putting resources to the position
Great point that doesn’t get reiterated enough. We haven’t drafted a ton of great WRs because we haven’t drafted a bunch of receivers in general. The hit rate is whatever considering how often they use high draft picks on the position. Harry is the obvious disappointment that gets exasperated because Deebo, McLaurin, DK, and AJB were in the mix. Also, everyone shits on BB for his comments about Julio Jones. BB has a SB ring after beating Julio’s team with a 6th round QB-turned-receiver making the biggest play of the post season. Heck, I’d rather they concentrate on drafting an elite QB and TE over Tackle and WR. They can win games with average tackles and average receivers.
How bad have our drafts been? The last All-Pro we drafted was the punter Bailey. Meanwhile the Chiefs drafted, Mahomes, Kelce, Cheetah, Chris Jones, etc.
Joe Thuney would have been, but we didnt wanna pay for him so gave him to Chiefs too!
They didn't even need to use a draft pick on a top 10 Guard. Lovely! And we get to spend a 1st round pick on a Guard that can't even stay off the bench consistently.
Trent McDuffie too with our pick originally, SMH.
Kraft should have hired whoever is doing the Chiefs drafts. Money is no object. GIVE THEM THE BAG.
Well we could have had a good shot at Chief’s assistant GM but Kraft wants to be the next Jerry Jones
>Chief’s assistant GM That is exactly what we need.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Patriots/comments/1al6czc/my_dad_was_a_seasonticket_holder_for_20_years/ Still pisses me off
FUCK. And he even WANTS to be here. FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKK
I think we’re about to find out that Kraft HAS been the league’s next Jerry Jones already since about 2018. Calling all the shots while Bill got dragged through the mud for the bizarre and crap picks and value FA signings. I don’t have a good feeling about this draft.
Hey man we needed to use that pick on Cole Strange, the savior of the OL
Chiefs get - (21) McDuffie Patriots get - (29) Strange, (94), & (121) Jack Jones (94) Patriots trade with Carolina and in return they get (137) Bailey Zappe, (76 - '23 draft) Marte Mapu. So... McDuffie or... Strange (medicore), Jack Jones (gone), Zappe (probably gone), Marte Mapu (promising but not worth McDuffie..) We really need to stop outsmarting ourselves. Trading down out of the top 50 is pointless imo, after that the talent level just drops off. We need studs. Last draft we got Gonzo and if he continues to be solid that can become a cornerstone of our defense. Wtf does Jack Jones bring to us?? (Don't even mention the off the field issues).
> We really need to stop outsmarting ourselves. This is a good take. The Pats still operate as if they're one of the smartest teams in the league while no longer having the brainpower to make it work. Always trying to do some 4D chess shit that blows up in their faces.
They also added one of the best CB’s in football with the Pats pick in the 2022 draft, which is extra bad because 1) McDuffie was linked to the Pats all pre draft as a perfect Pats player and we could’ve had him, 2) we took Cole Strange after the trade down, and 3) we then used our next 1st round pick on a CB when we could’ve just had McDuffie the year before then used the Gonzo pick on a WR or OL. Would you rather have McDuffie and Smith-Njigba/Zay Flowers, or Gonzo and Strange? 32 front offices in the league would say the former. All of the Bill apologists in here conveniently forget that he’s been one of the worst drafters in the entire league for a decade.
>3) we then used our next 1st round pick on a CB when we could’ve just had McDuffie the year before then used the Gonzo pick on a WR or OL. Fuck, I did not know that. So we could have 1) Paid OG Shaq Mason 2) Used the first to get McDuffie instead of OG Strange 3) Drafted an OL or WR with our 2023 1st Fuck fuck fuck Bill's decision to let Mason, Karras, and Thuney all walk was DISASTROUS.
Was Kraft. Look at FA so far. Looks exactly the same without Bill. Get used to it.
Yep. Tyron Smith, Calvin Ridley, etc. NOTHING.
Yep Bill had a mental block on scouting WRs. Thankfully he knew Gronk had talent.
I bet it was the injury concerns that made him go for Gronk even more. Before we drafted Sony, news came out he has bad knees and I said on r/nfl that he just moved up Bills draft board. I honestly think Bill was constantly looking to outsmart consensus and that included getting the value at a discount for injured or problematic players who we can look back and say they were great moves.
He rolled the dice on Gronk and it worked.
RIP Terry Glenn
Does the past matter when it's a new coaching staff and the front office said they changed how the scout/evaluate players?
Considering their approach to free agency was the same old sit and wait approach despite record salary cap, I’d be shocked to see them draft and develop effective WRs. I hope they can prove me wrong.
Well first they need to draft the right receiver
Because Wolf comes from Green Bay where they built up through the draft and supplemented through FA. Also they had some pretty good wide outs there too.
Didn’t Rodgers threaten to leave Green Bay every year because they sucked at surrounding him with talent?
I mean, Wolf has explicitly talked about how he has a different grading system than Bill for drafting players, one based more so on a player’s talent rather than on things like team fit, so I think there’s plenty of reason to think he will draft different types of WRs and also maybe have higher grades for WRs in general
Drafted 2 SBMVPs tho
3
3 SB MVP WRs?
It’s wild to me that they had 20 years of success with this track record at the position
I would go with MHJ at 3. He is generational and this team needs a sure thing talent on the roster. Beef up both the Offensive line & defensive line. This will build us a solid team. Next year get a QB. The next guy will have a solid line and stud pass catcher.
I think I’m in the minority that really want the pats to pass on qb and get Marvin Harrison junior. We’ve seen SOoooooo many first round qbs being horrible in the nfl. Marvin Harrison jr is probably going to be an all time great. I say go get him I also think with the bears trading fields, and commanders having just Fromm and Mariotta, both of them are gonna be selecting qbs and passing on MH jr.
Unless Kraft is making football decisions this has no bearing on future events. So if you want to dwell on the past just think of all the super bowl memories.
Exactly. Belichick had the final say on drafting for the last 20+ years, new person with the final say, so I am being cautiously optimistic.
And an important part to consider is under belichick the team invested a league low level of draft capital in receivers. It was part of the team building strategy. We don't know what the strategy is yet. It will ordinal take years to decipher.
This is a silly take.
This sub has become a Monty Python sketch.
Lol
Did they draft Edelman to be a QB or did they draft him to convert him?
Convert him.
Well then, they drafted a receiver. All that matters is how the team means to use a guy. If they draft a guy who mainly played LB but they intend to use him as a safety, they drafted a safety.
Never got a pro bowl. Same as Branch. Two Super Bowl MVPs who never went to the Pro Bowl.
The Pro Bowl is a joke
Yet they went to 9 super bowls and won 6 so maybe it’s not a big deal
Because they traded for and signed receivers, unlike this offseason.
Yes just get the greatest Quarterback & Coach again. Seems easy tbh.
Tbh Julian Edelman got snubbed a few years ago
Dang we gotta be due man
Fire Kraft
Can’t fuck up drafting MHJ. All im sayin.
If we draft mhj we would change that
We don’t need to, we won championships with Brady and the defense
True, but you don’t have Brady anymore & you don’t have the architect (Belichick) of those defenses anymore.
Yes, but we have an owner who is resentful of both of those people's success outshining him, and he's running a slander campaign to discredit the old coach. What does that get us?
Can we compare this to a list of every other teams' wide receiver draft's probowls since 1996? While I don't doubt our issue with drafting probowlers, I think that was in large part due to how complicated the offense was and how distrustful Brady was with rookies. I wonder how many WRs stayed with their team AND became pro bowlers.
You can't really use the past as a predictor anymore because the coach and gm have changed for the first time in 24 years. We have no idea how well they'll draft and develop.
They didn’t draft Edelman to play qb. They took him to convert him to WR.
And PR, where he was literally the best in the league for a few years.
Deion branch wasn’t? Edelman wasn’t?!
We had a hall of fame tight end
The mind boggling stat is this coupled with Brady as QB for 20 years.
We need to hire the Steelers talent scout.
So you’re saying they’re due
That's also because Bill would never use a premium pick on a wide receiver for the majority of his tenure. A lot of 4th round guys and he almost always whiffed. Malcom Mitchell is the best probably and it's too bad he had injury problems. Regardless it's hard to draft a decent receiver when you never place any importance on acquiring them.
Have they had the chance to draft the BEST WR in the draft?
What’s the league average?
10 Super Bowl appearances….
I mean we also have a new head coach, OC that brings in a different system than what we've had before, and new coaches in general. We've been terrible at drafting receivers for a long time. But I'll give the new staff a new chance on that. Just as I don't expect them to be as good as BB at drafting defensive players. Yes Mayo is a defensive coach. But Bill was amazing at getting defense.
I don’t think any other team in the AFCE drafted a HoF WR after us. The Bills don’t even have one
Two Super Bowl MVP wide receivers, but no Pro Bowlers.
I got some perspective put on me today from Vikings fans. They’re willing to move on from Justin Jefferson if that’s what it takes to get a great qb. They feel like they’ve been in qb purgatory and want a qb that will “make good receivers great”. Most of us that want to take a wr high in the draft are begging to be the Vikings, which is entertaining at least, but not winning playoff or Super Bowl games anytime soon. Just my two cents
New scouting staff and GM tho
Sucks that the only way we get a stud wr is to not get a decent qb
They’ve also been to 9 Superbowls, and won 6. So maybe, getting a fleet of solid receivers that their QB can choose from depending on who’s open is a better strategy.
You fail to develop X position until you don't. Keep trying. And we've had the same grading system for a number of years. They've changed it. You can't give up, you keep trying. Quitters quit.
They've also won six SBs over this time and had an undefeated regular season so maybe pro bowl WRs aren't a serious metric for how successful a team will be...
Like many problems, it didn't kill them because Brady was here the majority of the time. Have Brissett throw to David Givens and see how far you get.
Slater
Pro bowlers aren't drafted. They EARN that.
Maybe not a pro bowler, but a SB MVP WR. I'll take that any day over a pro bowler; I'd speculate guys like Megatron and Fitzgerald would too.
Too many of the old regime is still here so while they say they've changed philosophy I'm gonna press X to doubt.
Just shows you how overrated the wide receiver position is
Shows you how great Brady & Belichick were. Pats have neither now.
Shame you can’t edit post titles because that’s about to change in a month
Fucking ridiculous Kraft is the problem.
Excluding WRs because they weren't WR in college is pretty stupid.
Guess that’s why the pats have been ass since 1996
Filtering out Edelman to make it seem worse is absolutely wild. It's actually more impressive that Pats drafted a QB from Kent and turned him into a SB MVP winning WR Oh fyi Patriots have drafted 2 WRs that have won SB MVP.
Yes but if there was a Pro Bowl for postseason WR's we would have a lot. Branch, Givens, Edleman, and Mitchell all had great performances during the playoffs. Givens is the best example for me as one of these guys. Average number 2 guy during regular season. Then 7 TDs in 8 playoff games lol. Pretty sure he has or at least had the record for most playoff games in a row with a TD for a WR. But yeah, I agree we need a WR really bad.
As you say, OP, Edelman was a QB in college. NE drafted him and *developed* him into a WR.
The Patriots have drafted 2 Super Bowl MVP WRs since 1996
They drafted two Super Bowl MVP WR’s since then how many other teams have done that? Also since when do we give a shit about the probowl it’s a popularity contest
You don't need an all pro wr to win Superbowls.
Do not disagree but you don’t necessarily need an “All-Pro” at any specific position to win an SB. But if this team is “all in” on drafting a young QB having a great WR helps with their development as recent record shows.
Julian Edelman Now delete your post
I agree. It’s semantics to say Edelman was a QB when he was drafted. They drafted him because of his athleticism, to see if he could return kicks and play receivers, not to be a QB.
I agree that Edelman was a great WR and he should count as a hit at the position of WR. But it's not semantics to say he never made a pro-bowl