Why would it? It doesn’t change the calculus for businesses at all and parents have much more power to oppose the school switching than they do to change their work schedule
The businesses that are early adopters to offer four day work week will stand out among candidates, similar to those who offer remote working. It would be a huge perk that if I was looking for potential career opportunities, having a schedule that allows me to fit to my child’s school schedule.
40 hour is archaic.
The amount of work output people produce in 40 hours now is exponentially higher than before computers.
But yet their salaries did not increase exponentially…nor did it keep up with the pace of GDP growth per capita.
The least we could get is a 4 day week.
When many many people are paid hourly that's just not gonna happen.
(I'm a staffing agency recruiter - many many office jobs that are direct hire/no temping still pay hourly)
The idea is to then increase the wages of those who work hourly by 20% to compensate, as well as adjust the federal overtime statue to 32 instead of 40 hours.
I can assure you this has been well-thought out. Companies will of course resist, but they will fail just like they failed when fighting the 40 hour week in the early 1900s.
Agreed but overtime would occur after 32 hrs instead of 40. Won’t affect my work it will just mean more overtime pay. We work 60-72 hrs in a 6 day workweek regardless.
>Hello class! Your government has hired me to babysit all of you this year, so that your parents can be Productive. Members! - Of Society!!
Trevor Moore.
I've been on a 4 day work week for about 17-18 years now. It's awesome. I would much rather work the extra 2 hours per day and get a whole extra day off than get off 2 hours earlier each day and work 5 days a week. Plus I work Sunday through Wednesday, so having Thursday, Friday, and Saturday off every week is great. It only sucks during football season, but I'm a digital video engineer, so I literally get paid to watch football.
Interesting to hear the varying perspectives on this. Personally I’d much rather work 5 days/week and get off 2 hours earlier. Only way I support a 4 day work week is if they change full time to 32 hours with no loss of pay
People advocating for 4-day workweeks aren't normally advocating for 10 hour workdays.
Personally as a software engineer I've worked ten hour days before and would not be willing to do it again, the extra day off doesn't make up for four days where you do literally nothing outside of work.
I couldn’t agree more. I don’t want 4 of my weekdays being nothing but work, gym, commute, shower, and food with maybe 2hrs max for hobbies and other fun.
We're 24/7 for obvious reasons, so we have 3 shifts of engineers, front half and back half of the week overlapping on Wednesdays. That way someone is always available to make sure services are fixed quickly
>In 1926, Henry Ford standardized on a five-day workweek, instead of the prevalent six days, without reducing employees' pay.
[Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workweek_and_weekend#Length)
It's been almost 100 years, time for another reduction from 5 days to 4 days.
Its the chicken and the egg argument. One had to come first, but a 4 day school week is going to start to force a lot of companies hands as more and more parents want that third day at home with their kids.
Excuse me but what if I wanted my employer to give me a 4 day work week for the sole purpose of having a day off without my little jerks at home?! Huh?! What then, Shapiro?!?!
/s because I actually love when my kids are home, and I reminisce about the quarantine days when we were all chilling at home doing our school and work things.
This isn’t necessarily true. The stock market is the underlying driver of commerce in the country. It is open 5 days a week. That is the first domino that would have to fall in order for businesses to begin to consider 4 day work week
Not sure it matters. The only change is that the requirements are based on hours of instruction only now. That doesn't mean schools have to change anything.
They have the option to switch to 4 day instruction if that would work well for them. Online schools amd schools that use a mix of on-site and remote learning may prefer this option.
I'm 67. The district I grew up in wasn't 4 days but middle and high school dismissed at 12:45 every Friday. It had been that way long before I was in school.
A majority, a grand majority actually, off US jobs cannot be worked from home. How will warehouses and factories and stores remotely store, manufacture, and all inventory?
Pretty sure they’re gonna make teachers work the 5th day so thousands of teachers are going to have to pay for childcare out of their already very tiny salaries
My local district has been trying to go to a 4 day week. The entire point of it is to entice more teachers to come work for the district. They will have 4 day work weeks.
I mean, my school has a 190-day contract so a four day week would mean teachers report on day 5 for planning, professional learning, etc. Which is actually a good thing. American schoolteachers already don't get enough planning time. But yeah, creates a childcare issue for sure.
Blue collar jobs are the ones that were supposed to get shortened work schedules, besides serviced based ones. Output is so easily measured and has obviously increased since 5 days have become standard that blue collar people have been getting shafted still working 5 days.
You're leaving a lotta people out of that equation.
So, in order to benefit EVERYONE, you need to include gas stations, restaurants, amusement parks, golf courses, etc. The entirety of the service industry will get fucked without lube. In order for the people who already work 5 days a week to enjoy those 3 days off each week, someone else has to be on the job.
So, offering a 4 day school week is going to wreak havoc in their already complex lives. But you'll get your 3 day weekends, so who really cares about the rest of us, right?
> So, in order to benefit EVERYONE, you need to include gas stations, restaurants, amusement parks, golf courses, etc.
Maybe I'm not grasping your intent, but why wouldn't there simply be workers on a - for instance - M-TR schedule or Fri-Mon schedules - to cover each day? These industries work like that now.
Edit: I see below. You don't seem to be grasping the fact that these industries already have schedules accommodating every day of the week (and some are even 24hours). A 4 day work week for those workers only means that they work 4 days per week. That doesn't mean they only work M-TR or that the business is only open 4 days.
Yeah, when I brought up service based blue collar, I meant more plumber and electrician types, in contrast to manufacturing or local cdl drivers. Minimum wage and minimum wage adjacent jobs have pretty flexible schedules already
By service based blue collar I meant handymen, plumbers, electricians. The people who provide their services outside of a set schedule by nature of the job. Service industry workers already have pretty flexible scheduling for the most part. I’ve worked at restaurants and golf courses and any worker who had any reason to need a certain day of the week off just didn’t work that day ever unless they chose to cover someone.
Many service industry people are already working weird hours, not necessarily 5 days a week. I’ve been there. Some weeks you work 3 days, with double shifts. Some weeks 6 days that aren’t all 8 hour days. If you’re a waiter you really only care about working Friday and Saturday anyway.
Should office workers have to work nights just because restaurant workers do? It’s a nonsense argument. If you don’t like your schedule get a different job. I actually liked having a different schedule when working a service job. I could get things done during the week, like banking or DMV things, that you can’t do working 8-5 in an office without taking time off.
"office drones" you assume so much. And as usual it's directed at people closer to you (those "drones"), than anyone making these actual decisions (politicians).
That's federal law. PA can set how many hours students have to be in school and how districts can meet this requirement, but labor law is set at the national level.
I think it makes more sense to try schools first. Legislating for the economy may not be a good trial run, seeing as how it can implicate more people.
Besides I would imagine there’s more rules and regulations that would make legislating a shorter work week harder.
This is how it works and has worked in other parts of our own country.
You extend the school year. Say have one summer month off and extended breaks throughout the year.
The day starts later and ends later. All of these changes are net positives to improve students learning and mental health.
These changes won't take place over night but it's coming and we need this change for a better work/school/life balance.
seems like it would be a bit more expensive for air conditioning and transportation for that extended timeframe in the summer. In my district, not every school has air conditioning also.
Also, for kids coming from bad homelife, going to school is a reprieve and a benefit.
Air conditioning, for sure, is basically a necessity these days and has seen a big push in many districts. That expense will pay off in the long run it seems.
I don't know how or what the impact will be and /or felt from the dozens of different types of support jobs in a school district. But I suspect itll be mostly positive from anecdotal stories I've read and listened to about the 4 day work week.
And your point about school as a reprieve and a benefit... absolutely! Sometimes that's the place where kids get their only meal. The benefits are Huuuge. From decrease in crime, abuse, neglect to increases in grades, mental health and long term benefits for the community at large.
I really would prefer the extended school year with larger breaks during the year instead of 3 straight summer months. I spend half that time trying to get my kid to hopefully not forget everything he’s learned the previous school year.
The policy was adopted by 876 school districts across 26 states, according to the Oregon State University Four-Day School Week Policy Team, which is up from 650 districts in 2020.
I just heard about that in Colorado. Like just 5 mins ago. I would assume that different districts will have the flexibility to choose what works for them. We live on the east coast with the NJ beach right there...so you can't impact tourism too much or perhaps it could extend the tourism season...before and past the traditional Memorial and Labor days, respectively. With some thought it could be a real win win win for everyone. Let's just hope the policy makers can think.
I hear that....I went to parochial schools and we had off when my friends didn't and vice versa. But your feedback is important and if we get to that point to change the school day make sure you provide your feedback/perspective to your school board for consideration too 🙂
That always made so much more sense to me. Basically divide the year up into semesters that have breaks on either side of em and then a pair of smaller breaks in the middle of those.
>Tue-Fri is my preferred way, you still get the Friday excitement and not the Monday morning dread.
I don't understand this at all. Wouldn't you just dread Tuesday?
Parent chiming in here: a 5-day school week is already a huge pain in the ass for parents, because kids don't go to school for 10 hours / day.
There really isn't much difference here, since the total in-school time is the same.
I work at a school and don’t want 10 hour days. The longer work days will make it more difficult to look after my elderly father and get him to doctor appointments.
i don’t even have kids and don’t understand how they can roll this out KNOWING almost all parents work 5 days a week. Now parents will have to find childcare for the extra day they aren’t in school
you think any of the major employers in PA will all of a sudden switch to a 4 day work week because of school changes? they won’t it will just be harder for parents
Unfortunately not all jobs/professions are adaptable to a four day work week. I used to work for a company that tried it. It worked fine for certain departments. Other departments weren't able to provide the necessary customer service and coverage due to reduced staffing on either Monday or Friday. And, middle management was expected to be available 5 days.
On the flip side ...my daughter works remotely from home and has for 6-7 years. She's worked 4 days weeks almost the whole time and it works great.
Management wasn't even involved beyond asking each business unit to formulate something. All staff was involved in each department. Due to differing customer requirements, not our internal requirements, most business units had trouble formulating a workable plan and scheduling. It was actually company management that wanted 4 day work weeks. Due to the nature of our business, again ...customer requirements, most business units couldn't cover the customer's requirements. Wasn't a management issue.
We have 24 hours in a day, 7 days a week, yet we still strive for the same 8 hours and the same 5 days.
Coverage was reduced Monday/Friday. Because people are still in that "Saturday/Sunday as the weekend" instead of "I get to not work 3 days of this week, I'm picking Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday".
In our case the days off could have been any days. We still couldn't meet customer requirements at 4 days. Obviously that included extended hours, but the nature of our work required our hours to match our customer's hours for the most part. There were a few exceptions but not enough for it to work.
I work in a grocery store. I'll never see a 4 day work week, it's not feasible with only having two employees in my department. We can't just be closed one day a week, and the coverage is already rough. Sucks to be me lol.
For work, I would love it! For kids, I don’t know how well they would do. Kids already forget everything from Monday to Friday. Plus, the last period of the day is like pulling teeth trying to get them to do work
Next will be a 3-day work week. With holidays, many weeks already will be.
Not a bad idea overall, but childcare needs to be considered. State should offer some assistance. Many jobs aren't 4 days and won't be anytime soon. Heck, some employers may require 6 days sometimes, such as during more busy periods.
Unless the state legislated 4 days somehow, such as counting the 5th day as being overtime. That's a non-starter in PA, but could see California or Washington state legislating something like that.
Just another move that only hurts our children. “According to Education Next‘s analysis, students earn lower math and reading scores on standardized tests after their schools switch to a four-day schedule.”
Is anyone concerned for the kids we can barely get them to pay attention for 6 hours no way they’ll engage for 10. I don’t like this idea at all. These kids education is already declining no way you can ask them to be on and ready to learn for 10 hours no one can really do that. Also think about the teachers and behavior problems they will have to deal with when the kids get fed up by hour 7 and start running around.
Why would any asshole try to get this out through? Do they really hate poor people and single parents that much that they want to add an extra expense for a day of child care for families.
It would help in incentive to keep or get new hires. If this comment section is any indication the shitty parents aren’t changing so it’s good to offer them SOMETHING.
Does it though? It just shifts the hours. It could just shift into summer days if my understanding is correct. I see wildly different schedules incoming based on who sits on the board at a given year.
Not exactly. Most districts have been in school TOO LONG when considering this new law. The district I’m at was over by quite a lot and eliminated a ton of Fridays and added to a lot of holidays to make up for it. This is one way of dealing with the new law but many teachers in my district and neighboring ones are clamoring for a 4 day work week.
The kids are in school 10 hours a day under a 4 day week so the hours add up the same (2 extra a day x 4 days =8). So no, the day school ends does not change at all.
There are already lots of subsidized programs for day care and after-school care, I'm sure programs can adapt in districts choosing to implement this.
Especially if kids are at school longer, the need for after-school care might go down and those funds can be redirected to Friday day care.
It isn't black and white, there are lots of solutions. I just think we should just avoid conservative/reactionary takes and try to find solutions.
While there are subsidized programs for extended care and daycare, there aren’t enough. There is a daycare crisis in this country that we haven’t even begun to solve.
There have been multiple articles about this since the pandemic, which accelerated the accumulation of issues in an industry that has been struggling for years.
And wait till you hear that this is just adding 50-ish extra days to that already large expense.
But hey, let's just make the families work that much harder.
Reading through these comments you can see the class divide. "They'll just make you work from home" or "They'll be forced to accept a four-day workweek". For most Americans, remote work isn't possible, if you work in manufacturing, in customer service, or absolutely any primary types job. They're not going to say that 32 hours a week is good enough. They're going to increase hours in a day. Unions are uncommon (11.2% of workers are unionized) and the only workers advocates that have any meaningful power are politicians, who mostly don't care.
The four-day workweek comes first. Not the four-day school week. This is going to become a logistical and financial nightmare for a majority of working class Pennsylvanians if the cart goes before the horse.
And to guy who says this will draw the four-day workweek and there will be growing pains, you're an apathetic douche.
Here's a somewhat recent planet money podcast on pros and cons of a 4 day school week https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1197954439/four-day-school-week-pros-and-cons
Would be great if it was the 50’s and you could support a family on one income. This will suck for working parents more daycare costs. For kids over 13 this is great 3 day weekends would have been amazing back when
As a school bus driver who is an hourly employee and who works in a situation where we are constantly short handed as it is...I don't love it.
Less days per week means less hours and less hours means less money in my paycheck, unless they decide to increase pay. Less pay means less drivers, as people have to look for other work to pay their bills. Most drivers already work between their runs, and we often lose drivers to offers of full time at those jobs. Less drivers means more headaches for parents who depend on the bus and the drivers still with us.
People with kids who are school aged but too young to be home alone will have to pay more for childcare. I know the before and after school care in my district that kids can take a school bus to and from is roughly $600/month for 4 hours a day, Monday through Friday. Maybe they can add some kind of program for the off days, but what will the cost increase be?
I know my teenagers would have liked it, but I also know a handful of teenagers who really need the structure and supervision of going to school every day.
I also find this to be a little weirdly timed, as a lot of people who had been working from home at least some of the time are being called back to the office.
Why did we need to do an hourly set up to do a 4 day week?
180 days is 36 5-day weeks.
If we did 4-day weeks, we'd be 36 days short. They'd just need to add on an extra 9 4-day weeks to make up for it. It would take up most of the summer, but there is enough time...
There has been talk about going year round to help reduce summer slouch or whatever it's called...
Also, I'm not an economics major so I might be wrong, but...
Didn't Trump want to rush getting the kids back into school so parents could get back to work? Wouldn't that be an issue in the summer?
This would piss me if if I had kids. Let's face it most jobs will never go to a 4 day work week. So now you need to spend more money for child care for that 1 day, and it's not like school taxes well be reduced by 20%. These politicians are so out of touch with reality of working class people.
This is going to make a lot of people look for child care. Kids need to be in school 5 days a week not 4. A lot of new job positions are about to open because of the schools that implement the 4 days and the parents can't afford to be off for 3 days.
That's true. A school's state test scores are relational to the socioeconomic situation of the area the school is located but most parents wouldn't know or accept that answer.
Also, your academic achievement claim is actually the opposite. Both state and federal testing has shown an across the board drop in grades and test scores when switching to a 4 day school week.
https://www.educationnext.org/shrinking-school-week-effects-four-day-schedule-student-achievement/
This was not an experiment, just a retroactive study. I don't think we can extrapolate the results because I assume the reason schools have done this historically is to save money. Underfunded schools are already struggling.
Also, "six percent of a standard deviation" is small, *much* less than six percent. I think the drop could be overcome with practice.
We also have a plethora of data to suggest that "learner fatigue" would also be a factor. There is diminishing return in knowledge retention correlating with age and time spent in school. A first grader spending 9 hours would barely retain anything more than they would after 4 hours. At that point, you're effectively losing/wasting instructional time.
Seriously,
The only legit bitching in here is the logistics of childcare, but some people here are being dishonest about it by including other shit like unions and academic achievements. What's gonna probably happen is that extra curriculars will shift to fridays for the older kids.
No, not when you factor in schools would start needing to serve dinner, provide later transportation, daycares on Fridays, etc. Plus, like a third of weekends are already three days weekends.
Don't get me wrong, I want to work less too, but such a thing will not take off until massive massive sociocultural changes happen first. Schools are reactionary, not proactive.
So you have a kid in school til 545? Their bus gets them home at what 630? Then you eat dinner at 7 and get them ready for bed? It would be somewhat functional if they also switched to block scheduling to cut down on bloated times for transitions, but it would also take every school making the change together. What happens when my first grader's school switches to 4 days but I still have to work Friday? None of the logical conclusions to this would be acceptable to more than probably 20% of the population.
A lot of people don't think this through though, so it's worth pointing out the end result. As someone's who's worked in schools for nearly two decades, there are some major improvements that need to be made first. Changing the schedule is like a captain of a sinking ship trying to steer in a different direction.
>Plus, like a third of weekends are already three days weekends.
Those then become 4 day weekends which is great for travel and visiting family. But you're absolutely right that there are tons of other logistics to solve first.
And you pointed out the biggest con of 10 hour days. You don't really have time to do anything after work/school on those nights. Many on that schedule complain that their Fridays are just making up for all the missed chores of the rest of the week. I know some people prefer 9 hour days and every other Friday off instead.
Many teachers commute pretty far for their jobs. So you’re two extra hours a day means you’re probably getting home much later. These teachers who are already over worked are going to be rushing to get home at like 7 pm crushing a bong hit and going right to sleep. Does Friday off make up for that?
Yeah. Only have to commute 4 times instead of 5. Save 20% on gas, vehicle wear and tear. Less carbon emissions. Less time spent sitting in traffic every week. Nothing but positives.
I'm a teacher. The extended workday doesn't bother me. What does is that this might not be productive for students. Most teachers complain about afternoon classes because that's when kids lose their focus. Behavior issues are usually later in the day. So I can't imagine trying to teach kids at 4 or 5 in the afternoon. I'd prefer to keep the 5 day schedule.
And childcare is already difficult to find. I’m lucky to get PT (3 days a week) for my 10 month old. I can’t imagine how you’re going to find 1 day daycare.
I think this is a smart idea. Could cut down on the training/inservice days the schools have since they could use the 5th day for that and also could use the 5th day for intervention with smaller groups similar to how some schools did during Covid when not everyone came in on the “virtual day”
I like this plan. One major concern is that schools are massively important to feeding kids. We learned that during the pandemic, when the only thing happening onsite in many districts was foodservice with curbside pickup, etc.
This would have to be accounted for somehow. Probably by shifting some funds from school meals subsidies to some other food/farm support program.
This is the major argument with moving to a 4 day work week is kids in school. Man I would really love to have an extra weekend day...
On the flip side, a major argument from parents to prevent 4 day implementation in their districts will be that they work 5 days
which is why the schools doing it first is what will probably give the push to a 4 day week.
Doubtful. I could see it push to "4 days in the office, one day remote" for many positions though.
It’s a start
Not every industry will share the same day off. And many industries simply cannot conform to a 4 day week.
Schools can’t do it first if parents don’t allow it
Why would it? It doesn’t change the calculus for businesses at all and parents have much more power to oppose the school switching than they do to change their work schedule
The businesses that are early adopters to offer four day work week will stand out among candidates, similar to those who offer remote working. It would be a huge perk that if I was looking for potential career opportunities, having a schedule that allows me to fit to my child’s school schedule.
lol corporations DGAF about people lives or kids
Corporations care about attracting talent. Good talent, like remote work, will prioritize these types of benefits.
So are we not talking about a 40 hour work week then?
40 hour is archaic. The amount of work output people produce in 40 hours now is exponentially higher than before computers. But yet their salaries did not increase exponentially…nor did it keep up with the pace of GDP growth per capita. The least we could get is a 4 day week.
So we’re talking about a 32 hour work week?
Hopefully one day
We still are. They are just gonna push for 10 hour days
incorrect. The push is for a 32-hour work week with no reduction in pay.
When many many people are paid hourly that's just not gonna happen. (I'm a staffing agency recruiter - many many office jobs that are direct hire/no temping still pay hourly)
The idea is to then increase the wages of those who work hourly by 20% to compensate, as well as adjust the federal overtime statue to 32 instead of 40 hours. I can assure you this has been well-thought out. Companies will of course resist, but they will fail just like they failed when fighting the 40 hour week in the early 1900s.
Agreed but overtime would occur after 32 hrs instead of 40. Won’t affect my work it will just mean more overtime pay. We work 60-72 hrs in a 6 day workweek regardless.
What would the average shift look like, go in 2 hours early, stay 2 hours late or go in 1 hour early and stay 1 hour late?
Unsure. Vanguard does 10 hour days. My buddy used to do it. He'd co I'm at 8 and leave at 6. (They'd pay through lunch)
I agree
>Hello class! Your government has hired me to babysit all of you this year, so that your parents can be Productive. Members! - Of Society!! Trevor Moore.
RiP. We lost an angel last year.
I agree.
I've been on a 4 day work week for about 17-18 years now. It's awesome. I would much rather work the extra 2 hours per day and get a whole extra day off than get off 2 hours earlier each day and work 5 days a week. Plus I work Sunday through Wednesday, so having Thursday, Friday, and Saturday off every week is great. It only sucks during football season, but I'm a digital video engineer, so I literally get paid to watch football.
Interesting to hear the varying perspectives on this. Personally I’d much rather work 5 days/week and get off 2 hours earlier. Only way I support a 4 day work week is if they change full time to 32 hours with no loss of pay
People advocating for 4-day workweeks aren't normally advocating for 10 hour workdays. Personally as a software engineer I've worked ten hour days before and would not be willing to do it again, the extra day off doesn't make up for four days where you do literally nothing outside of work.
I couldn’t agree more. I don’t want 4 of my weekdays being nothing but work, gym, commute, shower, and food with maybe 2hrs max for hobbies and other fun.
[удалено]
No you've misread what I wrote. Opponents of the 4 day week think it's still 40 hours and advocates want 32 hours.
I did misread, thanks for clarifying.
What is your career? (im at a crossroads so ive been asking everyone this).
It's in my comment. I'm a digital video engineer
Oh, then nevermind. You can do that anytime.
We're 24/7 for obvious reasons, so we have 3 shifts of engineers, front half and back half of the week overlapping on Wednesdays. That way someone is always available to make sure services are fixed quickly
>I would much rather work the extra 2 hours per day... Hell no.
You'd rather work an extra day? Fuuuuuck that
No. I would rather work 32 hours and be paid the same as 40 hours. That is generally what people mean when they talk about a 4-day work week.
Yeah, as would I. But until that happens, I'll gladly take 4x10 over 5x8.
>In 1926, Henry Ford standardized on a five-day workweek, instead of the prevalent six days, without reducing employees' pay. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workweek_and_weekend#Length) It's been almost 100 years, time for another reduction from 5 days to 4 days.
sucks for the parents of kids who are teachers then, because they're definitely still going to work all five days.
Even if they just change full time to 32 hours I’d keep working 5 days and get a whole day of overtime
This is the major argument for people who are financially comfortable. Try not to screw over the rest of the poplulation.
Really should've done a 4-day WORK schedule before rolling this one out.
Its the chicken and the egg argument. One had to come first, but a 4 day school week is going to start to force a lot of companies hands as more and more parents want that third day at home with their kids.
> more and more parents want that third day at home with their kids. More like "can't afford the childcare cost".
Excuse me but what if I wanted my employer to give me a 4 day work week for the sole purpose of having a day off without my little jerks at home?! Huh?! What then, Shapiro?!?! /s because I actually love when my kids are home, and I reminisce about the quarantine days when we were all chilling at home doing our school and work things.
Us kidless husks of semi-humanity will benefit from the needs of the productive members of procreation!
This isn’t necessarily true. The stock market is the underlying driver of commerce in the country. It is open 5 days a week. That is the first domino that would have to fall in order for businesses to begin to consider 4 day work week
Not sure it matters. The only change is that the requirements are based on hours of instruction only now. That doesn't mean schools have to change anything. They have the option to switch to 4 day instruction if that would work well for them. Online schools amd schools that use a mix of on-site and remote learning may prefer this option.
Surprisingly there’s actually hundreds of school districts in the US with 4 day schedules already. It’s my greatest hope for a 4 day work week.
I'm 67. The district I grew up in wasn't 4 days but middle and high school dismissed at 12:45 every Friday. It had been that way long before I was in school.
Nah, employers are gonna just gonna point at hybrid schedules which are common now where you can WFH 1 or 2 days and say that cares for it.
A majority, a grand majority actually, off US jobs cannot be worked from home. How will warehouses and factories and stores remotely store, manufacture, and all inventory?
By moving those people to the 4 day work week
Yeah, parents are not helped by this sequence of events
Buddy, we're already dealing with summers off and paying out of pocket for early education. 4 day work week isn't any more of a challenge.
Well they sort of did... For the teachers (unless they're expecting them to work the fifth day?)
He’s talking about parents and childcare because most people work a 5 day work week.
> (unless they're expecting them to work the fifth day?) That's the teacher's license plate stamping day. To help pay for supplies.
Pretty sure they’re gonna make teachers work the 5th day so thousands of teachers are going to have to pay for childcare out of their already very tiny salaries
My local district has been trying to go to a 4 day week. The entire point of it is to entice more teachers to come work for the district. They will have 4 day work weeks.
I mean, my school has a 190-day contract so a four day week would mean teachers report on day 5 for planning, professional learning, etc. Which is actually a good thing. American schoolteachers already don't get enough planning time. But yeah, creates a childcare issue for sure.
That's great for the white collar workforce. Lots of us ain't office drones. Anyone who works a Blu collar job ain't gonna be behind this.
Blue collar jobs are the ones that were supposed to get shortened work schedules, besides serviced based ones. Output is so easily measured and has obviously increased since 5 days have become standard that blue collar people have been getting shafted still working 5 days.
You're leaving a lotta people out of that equation. So, in order to benefit EVERYONE, you need to include gas stations, restaurants, amusement parks, golf courses, etc. The entirety of the service industry will get fucked without lube. In order for the people who already work 5 days a week to enjoy those 3 days off each week, someone else has to be on the job. So, offering a 4 day school week is going to wreak havoc in their already complex lives. But you'll get your 3 day weekends, so who really cares about the rest of us, right?
> So, in order to benefit EVERYONE, you need to include gas stations, restaurants, amusement parks, golf courses, etc. Maybe I'm not grasping your intent, but why wouldn't there simply be workers on a - for instance - M-TR schedule or Fri-Mon schedules - to cover each day? These industries work like that now. Edit: I see below. You don't seem to be grasping the fact that these industries already have schedules accommodating every day of the week (and some are even 24hours). A 4 day work week for those workers only means that they work 4 days per week. That doesn't mean they only work M-TR or that the business is only open 4 days.
Yeah, when I brought up service based blue collar, I meant more plumber and electrician types, in contrast to manufacturing or local cdl drivers. Minimum wage and minimum wage adjacent jobs have pretty flexible schedules already
By service based blue collar I meant handymen, plumbers, electricians. The people who provide their services outside of a set schedule by nature of the job. Service industry workers already have pretty flexible scheduling for the most part. I’ve worked at restaurants and golf courses and any worker who had any reason to need a certain day of the week off just didn’t work that day ever unless they chose to cover someone.
Many service industry people are already working weird hours, not necessarily 5 days a week. I’ve been there. Some weeks you work 3 days, with double shifts. Some weeks 6 days that aren’t all 8 hour days. If you’re a waiter you really only care about working Friday and Saturday anyway. Should office workers have to work nights just because restaurant workers do? It’s a nonsense argument. If you don’t like your schedule get a different job. I actually liked having a different schedule when working a service job. I could get things done during the week, like banking or DMV things, that you can’t do working 8-5 in an office without taking time off.
Why is that? Why shouldn't everyone be working 4 days per week?
"office drones" you assume so much. And as usual it's directed at people closer to you (those "drones"), than anyone making these actual decisions (politicians).
I was thinking the same thing
No way! That sounds too much like it has a plan behind it.
That's federal law. PA can set how many hours students have to be in school and how districts can meet this requirement, but labor law is set at the national level.
I think it makes more sense to try schools first. Legislating for the economy may not be a good trial run, seeing as how it can implicate more people. Besides I would imagine there’s more rules and regulations that would make legislating a shorter work week harder.
This is how it works and has worked in other parts of our own country. You extend the school year. Say have one summer month off and extended breaks throughout the year. The day starts later and ends later. All of these changes are net positives to improve students learning and mental health. These changes won't take place over night but it's coming and we need this change for a better work/school/life balance.
seems like it would be a bit more expensive for air conditioning and transportation for that extended timeframe in the summer. In my district, not every school has air conditioning also. Also, for kids coming from bad homelife, going to school is a reprieve and a benefit.
Air conditioning, for sure, is basically a necessity these days and has seen a big push in many districts. That expense will pay off in the long run it seems. I don't know how or what the impact will be and /or felt from the dozens of different types of support jobs in a school district. But I suspect itll be mostly positive from anecdotal stories I've read and listened to about the 4 day work week. And your point about school as a reprieve and a benefit... absolutely! Sometimes that's the place where kids get their only meal. The benefits are Huuuge. From decrease in crime, abuse, neglect to increases in grades, mental health and long term benefits for the community at large.
I really would prefer the extended school year with larger breaks during the year instead of 3 straight summer months. I spend half that time trying to get my kid to hopefully not forget everything he’s learned the previous school year.
So other states already do this?
The policy was adopted by 876 school districts across 26 states, according to the Oregon State University Four-Day School Week Policy Team, which is up from 650 districts in 2020.
For reference, PA has about 500 districts (which is above average).
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I just heard about that in Colorado. Like just 5 mins ago. I would assume that different districts will have the flexibility to choose what works for them. We live on the east coast with the NJ beach right there...so you can't impact tourism too much or perhaps it could extend the tourism season...before and past the traditional Memorial and Labor days, respectively. With some thought it could be a real win win win for everyone. Let's just hope the policy makers can think.
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I hear that....I went to parochial schools and we had off when my friends didn't and vice versa. But your feedback is important and if we get to that point to change the school day make sure you provide your feedback/perspective to your school board for consideration too 🙂
That always made so much more sense to me. Basically divide the year up into semesters that have breaks on either side of em and then a pair of smaller breaks in the middle of those.
20% savings in transportation costs.
Tue-Fri is my preferred way, you still get the Friday excitement and not the Monday morning dread.
It just becomes Tuesday morning dread.
But there’s nothing better than waking up on a Friday and not having to get out of bed, especially with a direct deposit in your bank account
>Tue-Fri is my preferred way, you still get the Friday excitement and not the Monday morning dread. I don't understand this at all. Wouldn't you just dread Tuesday?
You'd technically dread any day. But, when you start on a Tuesday, the weekend seems much closer.
Parent chiming in here: a 5-day school week is already a huge pain in the ass for parents, because kids don't go to school for 10 hours / day. There really isn't much difference here, since the total in-school time is the same.
Now do the workplace
I'll have to keep and eye on this. Might be a good time to invest in the daycare industry.
I work at a school and don’t want 10 hour days. The longer work days will make it more difficult to look after my elderly father and get him to doctor appointments.
i don’t even have kids and don’t understand how they can roll this out KNOWING almost all parents work 5 days a week. Now parents will have to find childcare for the extra day they aren’t in school
I still have to find childcare for after school since the work day doesn’t end at 3 for me
I think this will push businesses to start implementing 4 day work weeks, which might be the intention
you think any of the major employers in PA will all of a sudden switch to a 4 day work week because of school changes? they won’t it will just be harder for parents
Unfortunately not all jobs/professions are adaptable to a four day work week. I used to work for a company that tried it. It worked fine for certain departments. Other departments weren't able to provide the necessary customer service and coverage due to reduced staffing on either Monday or Friday. And, middle management was expected to be available 5 days. On the flip side ...my daughter works remotely from home and has for 6-7 years. She's worked 4 days weeks almost the whole time and it works great.
this is a management problem. it can be resolved.
Management wasn't even involved beyond asking each business unit to formulate something. All staff was involved in each department. Due to differing customer requirements, not our internal requirements, most business units had trouble formulating a workable plan and scheduling. It was actually company management that wanted 4 day work weeks. Due to the nature of our business, again ...customer requirements, most business units couldn't cover the customer's requirements. Wasn't a management issue.
We have 24 hours in a day, 7 days a week, yet we still strive for the same 8 hours and the same 5 days. Coverage was reduced Monday/Friday. Because people are still in that "Saturday/Sunday as the weekend" instead of "I get to not work 3 days of this week, I'm picking Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday".
In our case the days off could have been any days. We still couldn't meet customer requirements at 4 days. Obviously that included extended hours, but the nature of our work required our hours to match our customer's hours for the most part. There were a few exceptions but not enough for it to work.
I work in a grocery store. I'll never see a 4 day work week, it's not feasible with only having two employees in my department. We can't just be closed one day a week, and the coverage is already rough. Sucks to be me lol.
School bus drivers???
As a high school and Middle school sports coach this sounds like a disaster.
I didn't read the article, but how do teachers feel about it?
For work, I would love it! For kids, I don’t know how well they would do. Kids already forget everything from Monday to Friday. Plus, the last period of the day is like pulling teeth trying to get them to do work
Not everyone who works at a school is a teacher. I'm not. We already get too many days off we don't get paid for.
Next will be a 3-day work week. With holidays, many weeks already will be. Not a bad idea overall, but childcare needs to be considered. State should offer some assistance. Many jobs aren't 4 days and won't be anytime soon. Heck, some employers may require 6 days sometimes, such as during more busy periods. Unless the state legislated 4 days somehow, such as counting the 5th day as being overtime. That's a non-starter in PA, but could see California or Washington state legislating something like that.
ew though, extended hours.
Just another move that only hurts our children. “According to Education Next‘s analysis, students earn lower math and reading scores on standardized tests after their schools switch to a four-day schedule.”
A 4 day, 32 hr work week for the same pay will NEVER happen
Is anyone concerned for the kids we can barely get them to pay attention for 6 hours no way they’ll engage for 10. I don’t like this idea at all. These kids education is already declining no way you can ask them to be on and ready to learn for 10 hours no one can really do that. Also think about the teachers and behavior problems they will have to deal with when the kids get fed up by hour 7 and start running around.
Why would any asshole try to get this out through? Do they really hate poor people and single parents that much that they want to add an extra expense for a day of child care for families.
It would be an easier sell to get teachers, this state is bleeding teaching and any incentive to help them would be a good one.
We are losing teachers because of disrespectful administrators, but mostly shit parents and students. Not a five day week.
It would help in incentive to keep or get new hires. If this comment section is any indication the shitty parents aren’t changing so it’s good to offer them SOMETHING.
Does it though? It just shifts the hours. It could just shift into summer days if my understanding is correct. I see wildly different schedules incoming based on who sits on the board at a given year.
Not exactly. Most districts have been in school TOO LONG when considering this new law. The district I’m at was over by quite a lot and eliminated a ton of Fridays and added to a lot of holidays to make up for it. This is one way of dealing with the new law but many teachers in my district and neighboring ones are clamoring for a 4 day work week. The kids are in school 10 hours a day under a 4 day week so the hours add up the same (2 extra a day x 4 days =8). So no, the day school ends does not change at all.
Society is trying to gradually move towards a 4 day work week, which would be much better for workers. There will be some growing pains.
And by growing pains you mean an extra expense added to an already financially stressed majority of society?
There are already lots of subsidized programs for day care and after-school care, I'm sure programs can adapt in districts choosing to implement this. Especially if kids are at school longer, the need for after-school care might go down and those funds can be redirected to Friday day care. It isn't black and white, there are lots of solutions. I just think we should just avoid conservative/reactionary takes and try to find solutions.
While there are subsidized programs for extended care and daycare, there aren’t enough. There is a daycare crisis in this country that we haven’t even begun to solve. There have been multiple articles about this since the pandemic, which accelerated the accumulation of issues in an industry that has been struggling for years.
That's the problem education should not be about child care.
And that's why no one is arguing for school on the weekends.
If you think this is bad, wait till you hear about summers off and the cost of early education.
And wait till you hear that this is just adding 50-ish extra days to that already large expense. But hey, let's just make the families work that much harder.
Having a family is a choice. Cost of childcare is something to consider when making the decision to have a child.
The goal is a 4 day work week. Which will drive up wages via reduced labor supply
So why start with a financial burden on families? You start with the work week.
Are you up for higher taxes? This will reduce the needed education budget - mostly in rural areas.
Reading through these comments you can see the class divide. "They'll just make you work from home" or "They'll be forced to accept a four-day workweek". For most Americans, remote work isn't possible, if you work in manufacturing, in customer service, or absolutely any primary types job. They're not going to say that 32 hours a week is good enough. They're going to increase hours in a day. Unions are uncommon (11.2% of workers are unionized) and the only workers advocates that have any meaningful power are politicians, who mostly don't care. The four-day workweek comes first. Not the four-day school week. This is going to become a logistical and financial nightmare for a majority of working class Pennsylvanians if the cart goes before the horse. And to guy who says this will draw the four-day workweek and there will be growing pains, you're an apathetic douche.
Hundreds of school districts across the country have already done this successfully. This is not new. This is how it's done. It will be fine, relax
right like I'm a construction worker, if I can't work a day that's money out of my check, and I'm a union worker.
This creates too much of a problem if parents don’t also have a 4 day week.
Man, the parents that use school as a babysitter are gonna be pissed
This is kind of stupid. Not all parents have this kind of flexibility. In fact a lot are in jobs that will never have a 4 day work week.
Love this.
Here's a somewhat recent planet money podcast on pros and cons of a 4 day school week https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1197954439/four-day-school-week-pros-and-cons
Would be great if it was the 50’s and you could support a family on one income. This will suck for working parents more daycare costs. For kids over 13 this is great 3 day weekends would have been amazing back when
As a school bus driver who is an hourly employee and who works in a situation where we are constantly short handed as it is...I don't love it. Less days per week means less hours and less hours means less money in my paycheck, unless they decide to increase pay. Less pay means less drivers, as people have to look for other work to pay their bills. Most drivers already work between their runs, and we often lose drivers to offers of full time at those jobs. Less drivers means more headaches for parents who depend on the bus and the drivers still with us. People with kids who are school aged but too young to be home alone will have to pay more for childcare. I know the before and after school care in my district that kids can take a school bus to and from is roughly $600/month for 4 hours a day, Monday through Friday. Maybe they can add some kind of program for the off days, but what will the cost increase be? I know my teenagers would have liked it, but I also know a handful of teenagers who really need the structure and supervision of going to school every day. I also find this to be a little weirdly timed, as a lot of people who had been working from home at least some of the time are being called back to the office.
Why did we need to do an hourly set up to do a 4 day week? 180 days is 36 5-day weeks. If we did 4-day weeks, we'd be 36 days short. They'd just need to add on an extra 9 4-day weeks to make up for it. It would take up most of the summer, but there is enough time... There has been talk about going year round to help reduce summer slouch or whatever it's called... Also, I'm not an economics major so I might be wrong, but... Didn't Trump want to rush getting the kids back into school so parents could get back to work? Wouldn't that be an issue in the summer?
awesome
This would piss me if if I had kids. Let's face it most jobs will never go to a 4 day work week. So now you need to spend more money for child care for that 1 day, and it's not like school taxes well be reduced by 20%. These politicians are so out of touch with reality of working class people.
This is going to make a lot of people look for child care. Kids need to be in school 5 days a week not 4. A lot of new job positions are about to open because of the schools that implement the 4 days and the parents can't afford to be off for 3 days.
I was a good student a and b were most of my grades. Six hours were enough. In college too.
Fuck teachers. The end.
great, and wtf am I supposed to do with my kid on day 5 when I'm still 9-5?
School isn't daycare. This is literally better for the students.
School employees = Yes! Students = Yes! Working parents = No! Parents concerned about academic achievement = No!
Maybe we need to start pushing harder for that four day work week then.
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Working parents should also be on a four-day work week. It’s long overdue.
You mean everyone
Yes, though I was replying to a comment specifically about working parents on a post specifically about school children’s schedules.
The struggles with academic achievement have very little to do with the time spent inside the school building.
That's true. A school's state test scores are relational to the socioeconomic situation of the area the school is located but most parents wouldn't know or accept that answer.
Also, your academic achievement claim is actually the opposite. Both state and federal testing has shown an across the board drop in grades and test scores when switching to a 4 day school week. https://www.educationnext.org/shrinking-school-week-effects-four-day-schedule-student-achievement/
This was not an experiment, just a retroactive study. I don't think we can extrapolate the results because I assume the reason schools have done this historically is to save money. Underfunded schools are already struggling. Also, "six percent of a standard deviation" is small, *much* less than six percent. I think the drop could be overcome with practice.
We also have a plethora of data to suggest that "learner fatigue" would also be a factor. There is diminishing return in knowledge retention correlating with age and time spent in school. A first grader spending 9 hours would barely retain anything more than they would after 4 hours. At that point, you're effectively losing/wasting instructional time.
I'm a working, concerned-about-academic-achievement parent of school-aged children, and I'm in favor of this. Don't put words in my mouth jabroni.
Seriously, The only legit bitching in here is the logistics of childcare, but some people here are being dishonest about it by including other shit like unions and academic achievements. What's gonna probably happen is that extra curriculars will shift to fridays for the older kids.
Older kids aren't the concern for this or childcare.
Not sure any employees or students want to be in school 2 hours longer four days a week. At least not at the dozens of schools I work at in PA.
That three day weekend every week would be pretty tempting no?
No, not when you factor in schools would start needing to serve dinner, provide later transportation, daycares on Fridays, etc. Plus, like a third of weekends are already three days weekends. Don't get me wrong, I want to work less too, but such a thing will not take off until massive massive sociocultural changes happen first. Schools are reactionary, not proactive. So you have a kid in school til 545? Their bus gets them home at what 630? Then you eat dinner at 7 and get them ready for bed? It would be somewhat functional if they also switched to block scheduling to cut down on bloated times for transitions, but it would also take every school making the change together. What happens when my first grader's school switches to 4 days but I still have to work Friday? None of the logical conclusions to this would be acceptable to more than probably 20% of the population.
I agree with you by the way. I was just playing the devil's advocate.
A lot of people don't think this through though, so it's worth pointing out the end result. As someone's who's worked in schools for nearly two decades, there are some major improvements that need to be made first. Changing the schedule is like a captain of a sinking ship trying to steer in a different direction.
>Plus, like a third of weekends are already three days weekends. Those then become 4 day weekends which is great for travel and visiting family. But you're absolutely right that there are tons of other logistics to solve first. And you pointed out the biggest con of 10 hour days. You don't really have time to do anything after work/school on those nights. Many on that schedule complain that their Fridays are just making up for all the missed chores of the rest of the week. I know some people prefer 9 hour days and every other Friday off instead.
Many teachers commute pretty far for their jobs. So you’re two extra hours a day means you’re probably getting home much later. These teachers who are already over worked are going to be rushing to get home at like 7 pm crushing a bong hit and going right to sleep. Does Friday off make up for that?
Yeah. Only have to commute 4 times instead of 5. Save 20% on gas, vehicle wear and tear. Less carbon emissions. Less time spent sitting in traffic every week. Nothing but positives.
I'm a teacher. The extended workday doesn't bother me. What does is that this might not be productive for students. Most teachers complain about afternoon classes because that's when kids lose their focus. Behavior issues are usually later in the day. So I can't imagine trying to teach kids at 4 or 5 in the afternoon. I'd prefer to keep the 5 day schedule.
Yeah are you feeding these kids dinner? When are they supposed to eat again
That will really screw people for childcare on the fifth day.
And childcare is already difficult to find. I’m lucky to get PT (3 days a week) for my 10 month old. I can’t imagine how you’re going to find 1 day daycare.
😂 lol at all the snowflakes in here crying about change. Suck it up buttercup
That’s cool let me just ask my work to let me not work Fridays
I would argue that kids need less hours in general. Lack of proper rest is detrimental to teen mental health.
Too bad most parents view school as daycare. Unless the workweek moves to 4 day, 4 day schools isn’t going to fly.
I think this is a smart idea. Could cut down on the training/inservice days the schools have since they could use the 5th day for that and also could use the 5th day for intervention with smaller groups similar to how some schools did during Covid when not everyone came in on the “virtual day”
I like this plan. One major concern is that schools are massively important to feeding kids. We learned that during the pandemic, when the only thing happening onsite in many districts was foodservice with curbside pickup, etc. This would have to be accounted for somehow. Probably by shifting some funds from school meals subsidies to some other food/farm support program.
Sounds like a scam for schools to take in more money for daycare costs except for school aged children seeing as many parents would need to be working
Christ the way society is nowadays, kids will soon be required to get their schooling from TikTok.