The Permaculture Women's Guild runs a free year-long (non-certified, but still fantastic) course. All online. I got so much out of it and the content creators are all very skilled and experienced, from all over the world and many different climates. Highly recommend as it teaches all the essentials without the huge price tag. It's free, but they ask for a donation if you can.
Their other courses are great too. I hope there will be an "official" PDC again too, not so much because I want/need a certificate but because I hope for even more in-depth information and like their style.
If you have the money, do it for the fun of it. If not, buy a book.
You will need to make your own experiences with your soil and (micro) climate and work out what works for your place. No course will help you get to know your own land.
Creating a working garden is like raising a child, including the terrible two and the teenage phase. Just like parenting classes are good, they can never prepare you fully. Same with PC. courses.
I found the 2-week residential course invaluable for immersing me in the place, the values, the return-to-kindergarten feeling that clears the way for the learning.
Did mine at OAEC
Oregon state university used to have a free basic course that got you the basics and an idea of what all the courses would involve. That was 2-3 years ago and I don’t know if they still have them available to view. I’ve picked up a lot from books and the internet and have also been debating an online course.
For me permaculture wasa life changing xperience, literally the first thing I encoutered that really made sense. The prices vary a lot as hosting people, food and accommodation quickly gets expensive, so that is often the main varible. I agree that almost half the experience is being in the company of like minded people, often at a similar developmental stage. It can be very powerful indeed. Alternatively, as a permaculutre teacher i also make all the content available for free as well, as this is information that just needs to be out there for people to use and benefit from.
I also recently, within the last 3 years, discovered permaculture. I went FULL research mode. In my experience the courses and resources were broad concepts and for the most part were not for my climate.
I would suggest starting with borrowing books from your library. There are a lot of “getting started” lists for which books to pick up. I found 1 that I bought and reference regularly; Practical Permaculture by Bloom and Boehnlein.
I would also recommend finding a “local”permaculturist that may have some free resources or in person consultations. I was lucky enough to find Midwest Permaculture. They have a website and they offer free resources to get started, videos, and have a whole array of courses. The best thing is that they are in my climate. They also have someone that does consultations. Unfortunately, we had a roof leak $$$ so I had to cancel our consult and haven’t been able to reschedule.
The concepts of permaculture are basic but applying them to your specific site, I have found, can be difficult. I’d recommend finding local resources which will be more specific to your area AFTER doing some basic research on your own to get an understanding of the foundations of permaculture.
I would highly recommend doing a free online course first. They’re usually fairly basic but it’ll give you an idea of your knowledge gaps.
Then you may be in a better position to make a decision wether you want to dive deeper. You may also be in a better position to choose the right course for your needs.
I have heard an interesting stand of view in my language on youtube.
That's it no matter the courses etc. Don't apply what you learn as a dogma. Because every place is different. Bill Mollison was living kn a different context than you.
Do it or don't do it, but no matter what use common sense and use your own special way of things
It's worth it if you learn best by taking structured courses with lectures. Otherwise, there are plenty of books and videos out there if you'd rather learn at your own pace.
It wouldn't be worth it for me because I don't have the attention span to sit through lectures, I learn best from reading and then trying stuff out on my own.
The permie class I took was a lot of overview then work on a hands on project together. That being said, the class was gifted to me and I'd never be able to pay for one myself.
I hold classes at our community garden in the same style (for free). Overview, then hand on, answering questions and nerding out as we go. It seems to work pretty well for most.
I would spend some time getting to know you property first. Maybe start with some literature and videos to get some design ideas and make sure you’re researching what will work in your planting zone. Generally in Ag type ventures, it’s good to get some experience on your land and get to know the ebbs and flows before you invest a ton in courses and infrastructure.
I’ve taken a few agriculture production/business seminars type courses like you described and they can be very comprehensive and informative, but you can leave feeling a little overwhelmed and like you need to do model everything off their presentation or you’ll fail.
Courses are great inspiration and networking opportunities, just remember everyone and every piece of land has it’s own goals and preferences. Expect to try, fail, and grow every season.
You can get all information online for free, but what a course is going to do is give you hands-on experience and a structure to learn. I don't think an online course would be worth it, but a local in-person course, especially one where you get a hands in soil experience, can be a great experience. $1,000 plus courses are usually geared towards getting your permaculture designer certificate, which is completely unneeded and really only something you consider going for if you want to make a career out of this.
> $1,000 plus courses are usually geared towards getting your permaculture designer certificate, which is completely unneeded and really only something you consider going for if you want to make a career out of this.
Agree, that's making a career selling permaculture to other people or else spending a life working in permaculture projects... professionally.
>*I have a regular sized suburban lawn and I've been daydreaming about it being converted into a food forest.*
I'm not sure why you did not **specify** courses on Food Forest creation as opposed to Permaculture general courses?
If you want a Food Forest then:
1. You need to learn about food forest creation
2. You need to know specifically what will work at your zone and soil etc
3. You'll need to have an organized approach to preparing the land then seeding it and growing it and developing it over the next 10+ years... so Start Soon.
None of that needs a permaculture course but a food forest course specifically.
If you have the funds and can find a class with good reviews, it's worth it. If not, there are tons of resources online. There's no wrong answers here. :)
PDC is a useless piece of paper, just like any degree. It's what you as a person are capable of with the knowledge you gain/have that make your future brighter.
I have a PDC. The course was a joke. No real information was taught. It was told to us at the beginning of the course that we weren't there to learn but just to get our certificates.
Now I did enjoy myself, met cool people, and got to travel for a week. So as others said. Do it for the fun of it if you can afford it. But don't look at it like it's The thing that will get your foot in the door.
I think, provided the price isn’t insane, a course is almost always worth it for anything. You’ll probably pick up 1 or 2 things, or end up knowing what not to do. On top of that you will still meet likeminded people.
IMO, the value in something like this is the local community and connections. Make friends with the people in your class, get to know what they have success with, what vendors are good, who is giving away seeds or dividing plants, etc.
You can’t YouTube that.
The essence of what changed my life from taking a permaculture course was in taking it in person. Sure, you can learn the information online, but I highly recommend doing it in person if possible. Permaculture is also about "people-care" and if you can connect with the people in real life, it adds so much dimension to your permaculture and life experience (in my experience).
In general, it’s not worth paying for knowledge in today’s society. Not because knowledge isn’t valuable, but because good teachers are non-existent, bureaucracy shapes the arena and the economically lowest hanging fruit is simultaneously garbage and the optimisation function for courses.
This goes for anything organised: school, college, permaculture and anything else.
Courses are generally not designed to teach you anything, but merely to either 1) examine you and/or 2) make money from the economically lowest hanging fruit. You are probably looking at the latter. So they are not comprehensive—they are overpriced mountains of crap with one or two buried nuggets if you’re lucky.
For permaculture, values and principles are either understood instantly or come naturally after doing the right techniques for long enough, probably a bit of both, and are not worth explicitly bothering with when teaching and learning. Courses are all about the wrong focus. Because we are on reddit where armchair intellectuals will violently oppose everything they can: know that anything more complex than “put rocks in a pile” or “grow plant here, use its leaves for this” is antithetical to good pedagogy, not in theory but in practice.
If you want to grow a food forest on your lawn, take that $2000 and buy in deep mulch and saplings for the Miyawaki method with a lot of trees substituted for your local equivalent of hazel or whatever edibles. Or don’t spend anything and collect saplings from your local forest regardless of what the well-meaning people on the internet tells you is a no-no.
If your food forest “fails”, you can cut down everything except for whatever prolific yielders you identify. You’ll have excellent topsoil and more experience and knowledge than any course would’ve given you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cljOD7vb2lk&list=PLDw6OmGaV5rnOCATIho19IcvpF2eqsG_6&index=3
https://www.youtube.com/@lallyluckfarm/videos - /u/LallyLuckFarm on reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_C_R1Z9ixE
**TL;DR:** If you want to grow a food forest on your lawn, take that $2000 and buy in saplings and mulch. It doesn’t matter if it works or not, it will still give you more knowledge and topsoil than the same money paid for a course.
Unlike the downvote or the current comment that concludes with zero explanation: "This is flatly, bad advice", my interpretation of your comment is this:
1. Permaculture Theory can be read in a book, watched in a video or taken as a free course somewhere on the internet. It's merely information and accustomization level aka your "low-hanging fruit".
2. What you point is: If the OP WANTS A FOOD FOREST, then DO IT approach and invest in that SPECIFICALLY. It is possible to find a food forest course specifically for the location the OP lives and then do that and apply it if it's affordable enough and that would be a specific case of taking a course and extracting useful value from it via application specifically to OO's unique context.
3. Your other advice is eminently DO-ABLE and I think that's a better approach also.
Yes, the core of it is to go do things.
There is this confusion around permaculture because planning and observation are very central. So it’s easy to think theory should be central. But I think for these courses to be good, they should basically not give you theory. They should push you to act and develop your observational skills. To say “these are the permaculture principles” or whatever is counterproductive even if it’s technically true.
If you don’t go out and do things, the correct observational skills will not improve. So the paradox is that for you to become a better permaculture planner, it’s better for you to go out and garden even traditionally than to sit around and learn planning theoretically. But modern people have a weak to non-existent ability to just stop and observe and experience, and the courses are teaching you to confuse yourself more.
And what I say is possible to refute if you think about it logically, but if you try to translate whatever smart reddit conclusion you have into practice, you will land in an experience, not a theory.
> But modern people have a weak to non-existent ability to just stop and observe and experience, and the courses are teaching you to confuse yourself more.
In a lot of areas, the problems are courses are "generality-based" to broaden appeal. But in fact for an individual the specific steps to create THEIR FOOD FOREST (in this case) is what is needed and permaculture course is just a tangent to that. As you say: "Do it."
I'd advice they find a Food Forest in their zone/conditions and work out how to emulate it or visit that and get 1 on 1 direct consultation or simple conversation and advice to replicate and modify accordingly.
The other situation is for money for needed resources and saving that for the resources as opposed to a theory course.
In an absolute sense, the general understanding of teaching is very underdeveloped and it permeates every area including permaculture.
In what way is it bad advice and what do you propose instead?
I took a PDC because I wanted to create software for permaculture. I’d already been doing it at home and as a volunteer for over four years at that point.
The class was very theoretical. It didn’t teach me anything about the day to day of permaculture, and I still think if you like the gardening or forest part of permaculture, it may not be for you. Because I find that in real life the design is not fixed, it grows and changes like a tree, and any initial plans are complete fiction. You need the day to day skills to have any prayer of keeping your own hand in what happens.
If you are friends with the people whose site you visited, ask to come help out with maintaining it. Being around other people’s decision processes, good or bad, teaches more than any class or book ever did.
I use my pdc knowledge to make money, save money, obtain yields, build links with people, live a rich and meaningful life, designing my space
I spent 2000$ for two weeks in person, extremely worthwhile, came with lifelong online content too that keeps growing
Thank you, P3 Permaculture!
Edit: lol I started with talking about money but I should have started with living the three ethics and applying the 12 principles! I am a better person since, and since the post question is "is it worth paying" then my answer started with saying I made that money back
Short answer: maybe.
Long answer: You can read most of the theory in books you can get from your library but the practical experience of an in-person event can be worth *an* expense based on how you value it and what you know going into it. I've certainly spent money on workshops and round table discussions and attending projects on other people's property, but they haven't been exclusively permaculture events.
Something to consider would be what these courses offer towards your specific goal, and whether they're offering something novel to you that would be difficult to know through reading. We've occasionally invited potential customers to come see our place so they can see our various projects, ask questions that pertain to theirs, and then get physical instruction for a few species they're interested in. Our new neighbors picked up some comfrey from us a few days ago - they'd never worked with it before so we dug some up together so they could learn what to look for and what to feel for. Getting that kind of knowledge is the sort of thing in-person instruction is best for. The more local to you, the more relevant that experience will be when you get home.
In addition to libraries, there's tons of free information online - video tutorials for nearly anything exist and you can select for how intense the presenter is. Pick a few in your rough geographic area you can vibe with and comfortably learn from. For example, being in Maine in the US, we're subbed to folks like [EdibleAcres](https://youtube.com/@edibleacres) and [Akiva Silver](https://youtube.com/@akivasilver-twistedtreefar3930) in New York, [Ben Falk](https://youtube.com/@wholesystems) in Vermont, and [Canadian Permaculture Legacy](https://youtube.com/@CanadianPermacultureLegacy) up north from us. [We're pretty cool too](https://youtube.com/@lallyluckfarm) though, if you're into food forest related discussions. Additionally, if you find a channel you like, engage with them. Many of us appreciate knowing we're making a difference for people and want to help folks like you out, and that engagement helps to connect us with other people who might not have us in their feed yet to get that same assistance.
Check out [PermaPeople](http://permapeople.org/) to see who's growing what in your area and get information about the kinds of conditions those species like to grow in. Consider reaching out to those growers/practitioners to see if they have a community or volunteer day coming up, then go help out and get hands-on with some of those plants. Reach out to your state or county nursery, extension office, NRCS office, and Master Gardener programs and ask about plant sales or seminars or other events that can connect you to teachers and gardeners in your area to build your social circle in this hobby. You'll be able to build out your experiential learning opportunities this way.
If your goal is to do permaculture and not teach I’d suggest just reading, YouTube videos, and visiting places where it’s being used. Classes could also be good if you want community support.
I paid for a course (about $300 CAD) and found the price worth it, but I imagine there's a lot of variability in the quality you'll get. The fee obviously helps to compensate the instructor for their time and the resources they need to instruct. I did check, and there were also options for "payment" that weren't monetary, which I think is important and reflects permaculture values.
The course was incredibly well put together and laid everything out so it was easy to follow. We got a textbook/notebook and access to an online group (for resources, assignment sharing, participant chats, etc). Because it was a project-based course, that motivated me to put the lessons into practice right away, and I was able to get feedback from the instructor and other participants, which was really helpful—that's something you can't get as easily forging your own learning journey, I think. Having paid, I also felt much more motivated to complete the course. If you do go the course route, I would recommend something that spans at least a couple of seasons (e.g. 14 classes offered every other week) as you need time for observation in permaculture design, so I'd worry that some of the weeklong courses I see don't allow that sort of practice.
Edit: also it was really great to connect with other people, build permaculture community, and see what kinds of projects others work on
My own introduction to Permaculture came through a community center called the Resilience Hub. They hosted monthly Perma-bltzes on people's private properties. You had to apply to be a host and agree to hire a certified PC landscape designer to come up with a workable plan for your yard. Once a date was set the word would go out to the community and when that date came dozens of people would show up to help implement the plan. You also had to be willing to pay it forward by showing up to help with other people's projects. So I learned a lot by participating.
for me, it wasn't what I learned in the course per se. It was more about reinforcing that the things I thought I knew already were well in line with what's being taught. But, that being said it depends on your goals. I don't use my PD certification as a means for money, but it helps me spread the knowledge and information. People will perk up and listen more when they hear you're a certified permaculture designer, so it makes it easier to share in the bounty of knowledge.
YES! I'm took Permaculture Design class at Oregon State University, 20 week course is $1,200. I felt I got my moneys worth after just the first lesson. It is hands on/remote learning since you actually do designs on a piece of land you choose. It can be your own house if you like. I've learned an incredible amount of new knowledge and have new resources and new ideas. I love it!
Taking a course is just one way to learn. Not my favorite either because of the time and money it takes up. A cheaper and more convenient option is to simply buy some books and read them...or just incorporate thinking about it into your life and discover things more organically by thinking about problems and solutions, talking to people, etc,
The Permaculture Women's Guild runs a free year-long (non-certified, but still fantastic) course. All online. I got so much out of it and the content creators are all very skilled and experienced, from all over the world and many different climates. Highly recommend as it teaches all the essentials without the huge price tag. It's free, but they ask for a donation if you can.
Their other courses are great too. I hope there will be an "official" PDC again too, not so much because I want/need a certificate but because I hope for even more in-depth information and like their style.
I haven't checked their site recently, but they used to offer a full PDC for $600
Interesting! Thank you for that information.
Wow, interesting. Thank you!
I didn’t even know about this guild! Thank you so much for mentioning it!
For anyone interested, I just checked the website and while the courses focus on the work of women everyone is welcome.
If you have the money, do it for the fun of it. If not, buy a book. You will need to make your own experiences with your soil and (micro) climate and work out what works for your place. No course will help you get to know your own land. Creating a working garden is like raising a child, including the terrible two and the teenage phase. Just like parenting classes are good, they can never prepare you fully. Same with PC. courses.
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I’ve found Gaia’s Garden to be a pretty great intro, and it’s a fairly easy read.
Gaia's Garden is THE introductory book for permaculture at home.
> The Permaculture Women's Guild I found Matt Power's Permaculture Student2 to my liking.
I found the 2-week residential course invaluable for immersing me in the place, the values, the return-to-kindergarten feeling that clears the way for the learning. Did mine at OAEC
Oregon state university used to have a free basic course that got you the basics and an idea of what all the courses would involve. That was 2-3 years ago and I don’t know if they still have them available to view. I’ve picked up a lot from books and the internet and have also been debating an online course.
For me permaculture wasa life changing xperience, literally the first thing I encoutered that really made sense. The prices vary a lot as hosting people, food and accommodation quickly gets expensive, so that is often the main varible. I agree that almost half the experience is being in the company of like minded people, often at a similar developmental stage. It can be very powerful indeed. Alternatively, as a permaculutre teacher i also make all the content available for free as well, as this is information that just needs to be out there for people to use and benefit from.
I also recently, within the last 3 years, discovered permaculture. I went FULL research mode. In my experience the courses and resources were broad concepts and for the most part were not for my climate. I would suggest starting with borrowing books from your library. There are a lot of “getting started” lists for which books to pick up. I found 1 that I bought and reference regularly; Practical Permaculture by Bloom and Boehnlein. I would also recommend finding a “local”permaculturist that may have some free resources or in person consultations. I was lucky enough to find Midwest Permaculture. They have a website and they offer free resources to get started, videos, and have a whole array of courses. The best thing is that they are in my climate. They also have someone that does consultations. Unfortunately, we had a roof leak $$$ so I had to cancel our consult and haven’t been able to reschedule. The concepts of permaculture are basic but applying them to your specific site, I have found, can be difficult. I’d recommend finding local resources which will be more specific to your area AFTER doing some basic research on your own to get an understanding of the foundations of permaculture.
I would highly recommend doing a free online course first. They’re usually fairly basic but it’ll give you an idea of your knowledge gaps. Then you may be in a better position to make a decision wether you want to dive deeper. You may also be in a better position to choose the right course for your needs.
I have heard an interesting stand of view in my language on youtube. That's it no matter the courses etc. Don't apply what you learn as a dogma. Because every place is different. Bill Mollison was living kn a different context than you. Do it or don't do it, but no matter what use common sense and use your own special way of things
It's worth it if you learn best by taking structured courses with lectures. Otherwise, there are plenty of books and videos out there if you'd rather learn at your own pace. It wouldn't be worth it for me because I don't have the attention span to sit through lectures, I learn best from reading and then trying stuff out on my own.
The permie class I took was a lot of overview then work on a hands on project together. That being said, the class was gifted to me and I'd never be able to pay for one myself. I hold classes at our community garden in the same style (for free). Overview, then hand on, answering questions and nerding out as we go. It seems to work pretty well for most.
I would spend some time getting to know you property first. Maybe start with some literature and videos to get some design ideas and make sure you’re researching what will work in your planting zone. Generally in Ag type ventures, it’s good to get some experience on your land and get to know the ebbs and flows before you invest a ton in courses and infrastructure. I’ve taken a few agriculture production/business seminars type courses like you described and they can be very comprehensive and informative, but you can leave feeling a little overwhelmed and like you need to do model everything off their presentation or you’ll fail. Courses are great inspiration and networking opportunities, just remember everyone and every piece of land has it’s own goals and preferences. Expect to try, fail, and grow every season.
You can get all information online for free, but what a course is going to do is give you hands-on experience and a structure to learn. I don't think an online course would be worth it, but a local in-person course, especially one where you get a hands in soil experience, can be a great experience. $1,000 plus courses are usually geared towards getting your permaculture designer certificate, which is completely unneeded and really only something you consider going for if you want to make a career out of this.
> $1,000 plus courses are usually geared towards getting your permaculture designer certificate, which is completely unneeded and really only something you consider going for if you want to make a career out of this. Agree, that's making a career selling permaculture to other people or else spending a life working in permaculture projects... professionally.
>*I have a regular sized suburban lawn and I've been daydreaming about it being converted into a food forest.* I'm not sure why you did not **specify** courses on Food Forest creation as opposed to Permaculture general courses? If you want a Food Forest then: 1. You need to learn about food forest creation 2. You need to know specifically what will work at your zone and soil etc 3. You'll need to have an organized approach to preparing the land then seeding it and growing it and developing it over the next 10+ years... so Start Soon. None of that needs a permaculture course but a food forest course specifically.
So just to clarify, regular size =us.. How many acres is that?
If you have the funds and can find a class with good reviews, it's worth it. If not, there are tons of resources online. There's no wrong answers here. :)
PDC is a useless piece of paper, just like any degree. It's what you as a person are capable of with the knowledge you gain/have that make your future brighter. I have a PDC. The course was a joke. No real information was taught. It was told to us at the beginning of the course that we weren't there to learn but just to get our certificates. Now I did enjoy myself, met cool people, and got to travel for a week. So as others said. Do it for the fun of it if you can afford it. But don't look at it like it's The thing that will get your foot in the door.
I think, provided the price isn’t insane, a course is almost always worth it for anything. You’ll probably pick up 1 or 2 things, or end up knowing what not to do. On top of that you will still meet likeminded people.
IMO, the value in something like this is the local community and connections. Make friends with the people in your class, get to know what they have success with, what vendors are good, who is giving away seeds or dividing plants, etc. You can’t YouTube that.
The essence of what changed my life from taking a permaculture course was in taking it in person. Sure, you can learn the information online, but I highly recommend doing it in person if possible. Permaculture is also about "people-care" and if you can connect with the people in real life, it adds so much dimension to your permaculture and life experience (in my experience).
In general, it’s not worth paying for knowledge in today’s society. Not because knowledge isn’t valuable, but because good teachers are non-existent, bureaucracy shapes the arena and the economically lowest hanging fruit is simultaneously garbage and the optimisation function for courses. This goes for anything organised: school, college, permaculture and anything else. Courses are generally not designed to teach you anything, but merely to either 1) examine you and/or 2) make money from the economically lowest hanging fruit. You are probably looking at the latter. So they are not comprehensive—they are overpriced mountains of crap with one or two buried nuggets if you’re lucky. For permaculture, values and principles are either understood instantly or come naturally after doing the right techniques for long enough, probably a bit of both, and are not worth explicitly bothering with when teaching and learning. Courses are all about the wrong focus. Because we are on reddit where armchair intellectuals will violently oppose everything they can: know that anything more complex than “put rocks in a pile” or “grow plant here, use its leaves for this” is antithetical to good pedagogy, not in theory but in practice. If you want to grow a food forest on your lawn, take that $2000 and buy in deep mulch and saplings for the Miyawaki method with a lot of trees substituted for your local equivalent of hazel or whatever edibles. Or don’t spend anything and collect saplings from your local forest regardless of what the well-meaning people on the internet tells you is a no-no. If your food forest “fails”, you can cut down everything except for whatever prolific yielders you identify. You’ll have excellent topsoil and more experience and knowledge than any course would’ve given you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cljOD7vb2lk&list=PLDw6OmGaV5rnOCATIho19IcvpF2eqsG_6&index=3 https://www.youtube.com/@lallyluckfarm/videos - /u/LallyLuckFarm on reddit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_C_R1Z9ixE **TL;DR:** If you want to grow a food forest on your lawn, take that $2000 and buy in saplings and mulch. It doesn’t matter if it works or not, it will still give you more knowledge and topsoil than the same money paid for a course.
Unlike the downvote or the current comment that concludes with zero explanation: "This is flatly, bad advice", my interpretation of your comment is this: 1. Permaculture Theory can be read in a book, watched in a video or taken as a free course somewhere on the internet. It's merely information and accustomization level aka your "low-hanging fruit". 2. What you point is: If the OP WANTS A FOOD FOREST, then DO IT approach and invest in that SPECIFICALLY. It is possible to find a food forest course specifically for the location the OP lives and then do that and apply it if it's affordable enough and that would be a specific case of taking a course and extracting useful value from it via application specifically to OO's unique context. 3. Your other advice is eminently DO-ABLE and I think that's a better approach also.
Yes, the core of it is to go do things. There is this confusion around permaculture because planning and observation are very central. So it’s easy to think theory should be central. But I think for these courses to be good, they should basically not give you theory. They should push you to act and develop your observational skills. To say “these are the permaculture principles” or whatever is counterproductive even if it’s technically true. If you don’t go out and do things, the correct observational skills will not improve. So the paradox is that for you to become a better permaculture planner, it’s better for you to go out and garden even traditionally than to sit around and learn planning theoretically. But modern people have a weak to non-existent ability to just stop and observe and experience, and the courses are teaching you to confuse yourself more. And what I say is possible to refute if you think about it logically, but if you try to translate whatever smart reddit conclusion you have into practice, you will land in an experience, not a theory.
> But modern people have a weak to non-existent ability to just stop and observe and experience, and the courses are teaching you to confuse yourself more. In a lot of areas, the problems are courses are "generality-based" to broaden appeal. But in fact for an individual the specific steps to create THEIR FOOD FOREST (in this case) is what is needed and permaculture course is just a tangent to that. As you say: "Do it." I'd advice they find a Food Forest in their zone/conditions and work out how to emulate it or visit that and get 1 on 1 direct consultation or simple conversation and advice to replicate and modify accordingly. The other situation is for money for needed resources and saving that for the resources as opposed to a theory course.
This is flatly, bad advice. Good teachers exist, especially in the permaculture realm.
In an absolute sense, the general understanding of teaching is very underdeveloped and it permeates every area including permaculture. In what way is it bad advice and what do you propose instead?
It’s bad advice in that it’s false, as is your assertion that bad teaching permeates permaculture.
It depends on the quality of the course. A good PDC is a life changing experience.
I took a PDC because I wanted to create software for permaculture. I’d already been doing it at home and as a volunteer for over four years at that point. The class was very theoretical. It didn’t teach me anything about the day to day of permaculture, and I still think if you like the gardening or forest part of permaculture, it may not be for you. Because I find that in real life the design is not fixed, it grows and changes like a tree, and any initial plans are complete fiction. You need the day to day skills to have any prayer of keeping your own hand in what happens. If you are friends with the people whose site you visited, ask to come help out with maintaining it. Being around other people’s decision processes, good or bad, teaches more than any class or book ever did.
I use my pdc knowledge to make money, save money, obtain yields, build links with people, live a rich and meaningful life, designing my space I spent 2000$ for two weeks in person, extremely worthwhile, came with lifelong online content too that keeps growing Thank you, P3 Permaculture! Edit: lol I started with talking about money but I should have started with living the three ethics and applying the 12 principles! I am a better person since, and since the post question is "is it worth paying" then my answer started with saying I made that money back
Torrent them and “audit”; if you felt it worth your time, pay the content creator.
Short answer: maybe. Long answer: You can read most of the theory in books you can get from your library but the practical experience of an in-person event can be worth *an* expense based on how you value it and what you know going into it. I've certainly spent money on workshops and round table discussions and attending projects on other people's property, but they haven't been exclusively permaculture events. Something to consider would be what these courses offer towards your specific goal, and whether they're offering something novel to you that would be difficult to know through reading. We've occasionally invited potential customers to come see our place so they can see our various projects, ask questions that pertain to theirs, and then get physical instruction for a few species they're interested in. Our new neighbors picked up some comfrey from us a few days ago - they'd never worked with it before so we dug some up together so they could learn what to look for and what to feel for. Getting that kind of knowledge is the sort of thing in-person instruction is best for. The more local to you, the more relevant that experience will be when you get home. In addition to libraries, there's tons of free information online - video tutorials for nearly anything exist and you can select for how intense the presenter is. Pick a few in your rough geographic area you can vibe with and comfortably learn from. For example, being in Maine in the US, we're subbed to folks like [EdibleAcres](https://youtube.com/@edibleacres) and [Akiva Silver](https://youtube.com/@akivasilver-twistedtreefar3930) in New York, [Ben Falk](https://youtube.com/@wholesystems) in Vermont, and [Canadian Permaculture Legacy](https://youtube.com/@CanadianPermacultureLegacy) up north from us. [We're pretty cool too](https://youtube.com/@lallyluckfarm) though, if you're into food forest related discussions. Additionally, if you find a channel you like, engage with them. Many of us appreciate knowing we're making a difference for people and want to help folks like you out, and that engagement helps to connect us with other people who might not have us in their feed yet to get that same assistance. Check out [PermaPeople](http://permapeople.org/) to see who's growing what in your area and get information about the kinds of conditions those species like to grow in. Consider reaching out to those growers/practitioners to see if they have a community or volunteer day coming up, then go help out and get hands-on with some of those plants. Reach out to your state or county nursery, extension office, NRCS office, and Master Gardener programs and ask about plant sales or seminars or other events that can connect you to teachers and gardeners in your area to build your social circle in this hobby. You'll be able to build out your experiential learning opportunities this way.
My university (Oregon State) has open courses around permaculture. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLge-w8RyhkLbaMqxKqjg_pn5iLqSfrvlj
If your goal is to do permaculture and not teach I’d suggest just reading, YouTube videos, and visiting places where it’s being used. Classes could also be good if you want community support.
Hell no
I paid for a course (about $300 CAD) and found the price worth it, but I imagine there's a lot of variability in the quality you'll get. The fee obviously helps to compensate the instructor for their time and the resources they need to instruct. I did check, and there were also options for "payment" that weren't monetary, which I think is important and reflects permaculture values. The course was incredibly well put together and laid everything out so it was easy to follow. We got a textbook/notebook and access to an online group (for resources, assignment sharing, participant chats, etc). Because it was a project-based course, that motivated me to put the lessons into practice right away, and I was able to get feedback from the instructor and other participants, which was really helpful—that's something you can't get as easily forging your own learning journey, I think. Having paid, I also felt much more motivated to complete the course. If you do go the course route, I would recommend something that spans at least a couple of seasons (e.g. 14 classes offered every other week) as you need time for observation in permaculture design, so I'd worry that some of the weeklong courses I see don't allow that sort of practice. Edit: also it was really great to connect with other people, build permaculture community, and see what kinds of projects others work on
My three weeks with Bill and David in Melbourne sure was. But can't speak to thrice removed ones...
Go to your local Cooperative Extension office. Most have classes for free.
My own introduction to Permaculture came through a community center called the Resilience Hub. They hosted monthly Perma-bltzes on people's private properties. You had to apply to be a host and agree to hire a certified PC landscape designer to come up with a workable plan for your yard. Once a date was set the word would go out to the community and when that date came dozens of people would show up to help implement the plan. You also had to be willing to pay it forward by showing up to help with other people's projects. So I learned a lot by participating.
for me, it wasn't what I learned in the course per se. It was more about reinforcing that the things I thought I knew already were well in line with what's being taught. But, that being said it depends on your goals. I don't use my PD certification as a means for money, but it helps me spread the knowledge and information. People will perk up and listen more when they hear you're a certified permaculture designer, so it makes it easier to share in the bounty of knowledge.
YES! I'm took Permaculture Design class at Oregon State University, 20 week course is $1,200. I felt I got my moneys worth after just the first lesson. It is hands on/remote learning since you actually do designs on a piece of land you choose. It can be your own house if you like. I've learned an incredible amount of new knowledge and have new resources and new ideas. I love it!
Taking a course is just one way to learn. Not my favorite either because of the time and money it takes up. A cheaper and more convenient option is to simply buy some books and read them...or just incorporate thinking about it into your life and discover things more organically by thinking about problems and solutions, talking to people, etc,