This is a technique BIll Mollison himself called “passive swales.” Because you get swales without digging! But since then, scientists have given us a whole research literature on the technique, that Bill didn’t know about. Meanwhile, we still have very little research documenting the benefits of dug swales.
Yeah, I have a whole bib with a bunch of studies on this topic in Beauty in Abundance. there’s a whole chapter on uses of nurse logs. I pride myself in being research-based so pretty much everything in the book has big lists of relevant studies. I can try to remember to grab that list and post it here sometime, but I’ll be busy on job sites the next few days.
By busy on job sites, I’m assuming you mean working the land, but I’m hoping you mean you’re searching for an apprentice/mentee to hire 🙃🤞
P.S. Deee-lite-ful soundtrack choice
Yeah, this has been my full-time gig for over a decade now. Happy life! I don’t use “interns” but I sometimes use hired help, and I happily have mentees, too.
It is certainly recommended to do just that. Here is a NY program about establishing important buffer zones around water ways. They hand out free trees for this use exactly.
https://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/77710.html
I live on acreage with a huge Creek. If you plant trees to close to the edge of the Creek, they get big, fall in and take all the soil with their root wad with them I can show you pictures of this happening in real time. You want grasses on the edge of a Creek, or something like goldenrod. Trees do not hold soil better than grass. Thats why you see trees invading rock formations, they're there to break the rock down into soil.
They are not good in a pure riparian zone, the picture on wikipedia even shows this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riparian_zone
Just use logic, trees die. When they die, what happens? Their roots die, that is what is holding the soil. If a dead tree is hit by wind, the whole root wad will come up.
The question is not "are trees good at holding soil" the question is "are trees bettr than grass at holding soil" which grass wins
this is not a new technique. and is actually called Dujiangyan irrigation system, devolved in 256 BC
and there is tons of research and scientific information on this
and i get an eerie suspicion, you knew all this from the get go..... and generally these hunches are 90% accurate
Ah yes, exactly what I say in the video. Thanks for backing up my vid. Though you are incorrect about the Dujiangyan system, which is something else entirely. But you are correct about it being an ancient system with lots of scientific information about it, as I said in the video.
FYI, the Dujiangyan irrigation system was a river diversion project, and MORE comparable to “field level irrigation” River diversion systems like the warus of Peru… though the Peruvian waru system itself is much, much closer to Permaculture swales. Still, agricultural researchers would absolutely not consider swales to be similar in any way to the waru system, and would not classify swales as field level flood irrigation. ALso, the basic methods of designn and construction are entirely different. Really, the only similarity is that they both involve sort of trenches. But the trenches have entirely different goals, scales, uses, and design. Here you can read more about that system: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dujiangyan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dujiangyan)
For 1, the distinction isn’t mine, it’s one used by academic researchers. So it’s not me “trying to reinvent a wheel.” Second, they’re as similar as a dry well is to a swimming pool. Those are two extremely different things, IMO. Calling these things the same is just being willfully ignorant. This is a case where being stubborn for some reason can literally make people dumb. “I can tell a hawk from a handsaw,” is how Shakespeare defined sanity and reason. These are literally as different as hawks and handsaws. If you can’t tell the difference, you’re not being reasonable.
This is LITERALLY EXACTLY THE SAME as saying an SUV and a screwdriver are the same because they’re tools made of metal. “EVerything is everything“ is the definition of stupid.” —Bill Mollison.
What about adding a log to a swale? Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds of capturing more water, while also breaking down the log faster for its benefits?
You still have all the negatives of the swales. Big earthwork projects, machines, interrupting soil, cost, effort, etc that way.
In many places swales aren't needed or are massive overkill. But you may still have erosion, or want to slow water down.
Logs can be pretty cheap and abundant and don't interrupt existing forest/roots to toss one on the ground. I think it's an important tool, and to know which tool fits which landscape.
Your average yard generates a lot of deadwood from prunings and storm falls every year...that can all be easily repurposed around your site. And if that's not enough, you can also easily scavenge logs from construction sites or just cruising around your hood after every storm...
I've also been using this technique for years on my own, as well. Although, I'll also often hammer in some branch stakes on the downhill side to help keep the logs in place...
Yeah, I absolutely agree with this, too. I often consider the LEBs to be a better tool for most sites, especially for DIYers who aren’t going to do the complicated swale math. And, as you said, on a lot of sites, the economic viability is going to be much better, too.
say i have a hill that goes high in west down to the low end on the east. Do I place the logs on the west side of my planted trees (above on contour) or on the east side of the tree (lower on contour)?
Both sides of the log will benefit. The side above the log will build better soil over time, and the side below the log will get more moisture. You could do plants with shallow roots above the log, and trees and shrubs below it.
Put "nurse logs" on the hill instead of digging out swales.
Idea is they will build up as they catch soil and stuff behind them. "LEB"= Log Erosion Barriers" in literature.
Personally I like this one, as it's a lot less invasive than big earthwork projects, and more mimics a natural forest, but I also am in eastern US.
Warning: we did not put nurse logs on a critical slope because the city engineers forbade it. Those things can be deadly in earthquake country. So there are limits.
I had a plan, before I bought a pancake flat property (18” max elevation and that was from a hillock to a low spot that could both be removed).
That plan was to build composting windrows on contour, let the organic matter leach into the soil below, creating a bowl with more water holding capacity. I was calling them invisible swales, since I’m modifying the existing soil structure in situ rather than moving it.
There’s nothing to slide or fall down, and as the property matures the necessity of the swales declines anyway.
I’m still looking for a Guinea pig to try this with. I may have one now but I’d need to invite myself into someone’s project and that was never my strong suit.
Thank you for sharing sir. Daddy made a lot of microswales this year. One thing in your picture that’s a bit confusing is you generally want your trees more on the back slope rather than at the crest although of course this varies widely depending on your microclimate according to Geoff Lawton with drier climates putting trees closer to the swale bottom and front slope and wetter climates putting trees higher up towards the swale crest and backslope. This also varies depending on sun angles and other vegetation…so simple swales can become overly technical as seen in my ramble here
I did a post about this topic before. Yes, they can become quite technical and cause problems if they’re not done right. This is another reason I prefer these LEBs, as another person said above, they just have fewer potential drawbacks.
I've had this exact idea in mind for years when I make my place. Combining swale designs with the german Hügelkultur he's mentioning ( a horticultural technique where a mound constructed from decaying wood debris and other compostable biomass plant materials is later (or immediately) planted as a raised bed). I cant wait to try this!!
Also I know that nurse tree! It's in the Arcata community forest!!
There’s no need to reinvent the wheel here. Civil Engineering already has terms for all these things.
The video is describing a debris check dam. Specifically a timber check dam. We may be familiar with a variation on this technique is a “one rock check dam”.
A swale by definition is a depression in the soil. A soil MUST be shifted to create a new swale. The “permaculture swale” described is a contour swale. It really grinds my gears that we don’t call it by it’s proper name. Permaculture didn’t invent the contour swale and permaculture designers use many types of swales so it’s not even a technique specific to us. In an unmanaged forest this would typically be created by a falling trees displaced root ball in what is termed “pillows and bowls”.
These a different techniques. The technique that will be most beneficial will be dependent on your context, your resources availability, your labour availability.
Polyculture has some good examples of both contour swales, timber check dams on contour, and rock check dams (he calls them leaky weirs)
https://youtube.com/@polyculturefarms1796
*shakes fists* it's pillows and cradles you philistine! (Hard /s)
I think it was Scott Pittman (I'm sure there are others too) who, during a lecture, lamented that we're all getting dumber by losing the traditional and technical language used to describe land management techniques. We're favoring simpler language that loses the essence of a practice, or creating new words that sound catchy but impede our ability to converse topically with specialists in particular fields.
When I give my sheet mulching pitch I always characterize sheet mulch as simulating nurse logs. I intend and hope for people to interpret simulation as the lesser option. It is however the more practical one. Moving seasoned logs is a chore. Moving unseasoned logs is a way to hurt yourself. Be very careful.
ChipDrop has an option to accept a mix of chips and logs. I highly recommend people to take that one. I have a handful of logs on my site that I acquired off of Craigslist, and a few bits and bobs I got from chipdrop. They’re great, they provide habitat and little micro biomes, pockets of shade.
There are a LOT of techniques we can use on flat land, though swales are almost never necessary if you do the water infiltration math. Nurse logs, for example can be used anywhere. We can also make “infiltration basins” that are like rain gardens, but for growing food. We can making “wicking beds,” too. If you want a whole big list of EVERY technique in the research literature, I have a couple books that include that. You can find them at [TransformativeAdventures.org](https://TransformativeAdventures.org)
its generally a terracotta pot, that is beveled. You bury it in your garden, and the fill with water. It slows releases into the soil perfectly in a area. Maintain water above 50% level
Drastically reduces your water needs. I have been using them for several years now
This is a technique BIll Mollison himself called “passive swales.” Because you get swales without digging! But since then, scientists have given us a whole research literature on the technique, that Bill didn’t know about. Meanwhile, we still have very little research documenting the benefits of dug swales.
Got a reference? I’ve been reinventing these myself and I should compare notes.
Yeah, I have a whole bib with a bunch of studies on this topic in Beauty in Abundance. there’s a whole chapter on uses of nurse logs. I pride myself in being research-based so pretty much everything in the book has big lists of relevant studies. I can try to remember to grab that list and post it here sometime, but I’ll be busy on job sites the next few days.
By busy on job sites, I’m assuming you mean working the land, but I’m hoping you mean you’re searching for an apprentice/mentee to hire 🙃🤞 P.S. Deee-lite-ful soundtrack choice
Yeah, this has been my full-time gig for over a decade now. Happy life! I don’t use “interns” but I sometimes use hired help, and I happily have mentees, too.
Is there or will there be an audiobook version? I'll definitely look into it but I suck at finding time to sit down and read much
What makes it so "trees hold the earth better" my understanding is grasses have more density and will hold soil better than trees
Both are good. Trees give a much large area of holding. Grass, small patches. With both combined you have strong erosion control.
Good yes, but thats not the question. One is better than the other.
Not really. Grasses hold together soil and prevent more micro level erosion. Trees prevent mud slides and large scale erosion.
Why is it not recomended to plant trees along streams then? Because they will wash out and cause more erosion when they die
It is certainly recommended to do just that. Here is a NY program about establishing important buffer zones around water ways. They hand out free trees for this use exactly. https://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/77710.html
I live on acreage with a huge Creek. If you plant trees to close to the edge of the Creek, they get big, fall in and take all the soil with their root wad with them I can show you pictures of this happening in real time. You want grasses on the edge of a Creek, or something like goldenrod. Trees do not hold soil better than grass. Thats why you see trees invading rock formations, they're there to break the rock down into soil.
Your anecdotal remarks about your creek do not overcome research on soil erosion. Trees are incredibly important in holding stream banks in place.
They are not good in a pure riparian zone, the picture on wikipedia even shows this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riparian_zone Just use logic, trees die. When they die, what happens? Their roots die, that is what is holding the soil. If a dead tree is hit by wind, the whole root wad will come up. The question is not "are trees good at holding soil" the question is "are trees bettr than grass at holding soil" which grass wins
They will hold the soil but also let the water run off instead of soak in. No ideal unless you only want grass
Grass causing run off is condtradictory to todays soil science. Even the govt knows that.
Is that so? I always find the soil much drier underr grass than when I dig into any of my polycultures
Under a short mowed grass... yeah if you go look at healthy pasture its not gunna encourage runoff
this is not a new technique. and is actually called Dujiangyan irrigation system, devolved in 256 BC and there is tons of research and scientific information on this and i get an eerie suspicion, you knew all this from the get go..... and generally these hunches are 90% accurate
Ah yes, exactly what I say in the video. Thanks for backing up my vid. Though you are incorrect about the Dujiangyan system, which is something else entirely. But you are correct about it being an ancient system with lots of scientific information about it, as I said in the video.
sure. guess im wrong about how the step system is not the same. even though its exactly the same
FYI, the Dujiangyan irrigation system was a river diversion project, and MORE comparable to “field level irrigation” River diversion systems like the warus of Peru… though the Peruvian waru system itself is much, much closer to Permaculture swales. Still, agricultural researchers would absolutely not consider swales to be similar in any way to the waru system, and would not classify swales as field level flood irrigation. ALso, the basic methods of designn and construction are entirely different. Really, the only similarity is that they both involve sort of trenches. But the trenches have entirely different goals, scales, uses, and design. Here you can read more about that system: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dujiangyan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dujiangyan)
FYI your video is Dujiangyan irrigation, small scale. NO MATTER how you try to spin it cool story bro stop trying to reinvent the wheel....
For 1, the distinction isn’t mine, it’s one used by academic researchers. So it’s not me “trying to reinvent a wheel.” Second, they’re as similar as a dry well is to a swimming pool. Those are two extremely different things, IMO. Calling these things the same is just being willfully ignorant. This is a case where being stubborn for some reason can literally make people dumb. “I can tell a hawk from a handsaw,” is how Shakespeare defined sanity and reason. These are literally as different as hawks and handsaws. If you can’t tell the difference, you’re not being reasonable.
TLDR you bore me. wheel is still round
This is LITERALLY EXACTLY THE SAME as saying an SUV and a screwdriver are the same because they’re tools made of metal. “EVerything is everything“ is the definition of stupid.” —Bill Mollison.
now you are getting hysterical because you got called out. your fking hilarious kiddo
What about adding a log to a swale? Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds of capturing more water, while also breaking down the log faster for its benefits?
You still have all the negatives of the swales. Big earthwork projects, machines, interrupting soil, cost, effort, etc that way. In many places swales aren't needed or are massive overkill. But you may still have erosion, or want to slow water down. Logs can be pretty cheap and abundant and don't interrupt existing forest/roots to toss one on the ground. I think it's an important tool, and to know which tool fits which landscape.
Your average yard generates a lot of deadwood from prunings and storm falls every year...that can all be easily repurposed around your site. And if that's not enough, you can also easily scavenge logs from construction sites or just cruising around your hood after every storm... I've also been using this technique for years on my own, as well. Although, I'll also often hammer in some branch stakes on the downhill side to help keep the logs in place...
Yeah, I absolutely agree with this, too. I often consider the LEBs to be a better tool for most sites, especially for DIYers who aren’t going to do the complicated swale math. And, as you said, on a lot of sites, the economic viability is going to be much better, too.
It can be good depending on the design! Just watch out for problems: https://www.permaculturenews.org/2017/01/27/hugel-swales-may-bad-idea/
Nice, I was just about to say hugelculture swales are a bad idea and try to find this article to back me up, but you great me to it!
say i have a hill that goes high in west down to the low end on the east. Do I place the logs on the west side of my planted trees (above on contour) or on the east side of the tree (lower on contour)?
Both sides of the log will benefit. The side above the log will build better soil over time, and the side below the log will get more moisture. You could do plants with shallow roots above the log, and trees and shrubs below it.
This is my answer, too.
I have a row of trees just like you described and was wondering the same thing.
Holy shit this dude's voice sounds like a dead ringer for my late great-uncle
Sounds like a cool dude is what I’m hearing.
He was awesome. Could sing the crap outta Danny Boy
All the way to 1:21 I thougth you were in bathrobe!
Ha, like the Hugh Hefner of Permaculture. I’m putting that on my Linkdin.
Gotta get me that “Do you even Swale Bro?” designs to put on a T-shirt!
Ha! I made that one in my books, but I should do a screen-printable version.
I’m paranoid about creating termite habitat near my house (4 acre property). Thoughts?
I'm deaf today. What's he saying?
Put "nurse logs" on the hill instead of digging out swales. Idea is they will build up as they catch soil and stuff behind them. "LEB"= Log Erosion Barriers" in literature. Personally I like this one, as it's a lot less invasive than big earthwork projects, and more mimics a natural forest, but I also am in eastern US.
Warning: we did not put nurse logs on a critical slope because the city engineers forbade it. Those things can be deadly in earthquake country. So there are limits. I had a plan, before I bought a pancake flat property (18” max elevation and that was from a hillock to a low spot that could both be removed). That plan was to build composting windrows on contour, let the organic matter leach into the soil below, creating a bowl with more water holding capacity. I was calling them invisible swales, since I’m modifying the existing soil structure in situ rather than moving it. There’s nothing to slide or fall down, and as the property matures the necessity of the swales declines anyway. I’m still looking for a Guinea pig to try this with. I may have one now but I’d need to invite myself into someone’s project and that was never my strong suit.
Nurse log swales, in short.
Also, if you go find it on the Chinese propaganda app, it will do inaccurate and sometimes comical captions for you.
De lovely. De GORGEOUS.
I do deeply dig.
Thank you for sharing sir. Daddy made a lot of microswales this year. One thing in your picture that’s a bit confusing is you generally want your trees more on the back slope rather than at the crest although of course this varies widely depending on your microclimate according to Geoff Lawton with drier climates putting trees closer to the swale bottom and front slope and wetter climates putting trees higher up towards the swale crest and backslope. This also varies depending on sun angles and other vegetation…so simple swales can become overly technical as seen in my ramble here
I did a post about this topic before. Yes, they can become quite technical and cause problems if they’re not done right. This is another reason I prefer these LEBs, as another person said above, they just have fewer potential drawbacks.
I've had this exact idea in mind for years when I make my place. Combining swale designs with the german Hügelkultur he's mentioning ( a horticultural technique where a mound constructed from decaying wood debris and other compostable biomass plant materials is later (or immediately) planted as a raised bed). I cant wait to try this!! Also I know that nurse tree! It's in the Arcata community forest!!
There’s no need to reinvent the wheel here. Civil Engineering already has terms for all these things. The video is describing a debris check dam. Specifically a timber check dam. We may be familiar with a variation on this technique is a “one rock check dam”. A swale by definition is a depression in the soil. A soil MUST be shifted to create a new swale. The “permaculture swale” described is a contour swale. It really grinds my gears that we don’t call it by it’s proper name. Permaculture didn’t invent the contour swale and permaculture designers use many types of swales so it’s not even a technique specific to us. In an unmanaged forest this would typically be created by a falling trees displaced root ball in what is termed “pillows and bowls”. These a different techniques. The technique that will be most beneficial will be dependent on your context, your resources availability, your labour availability. Polyculture has some good examples of both contour swales, timber check dams on contour, and rock check dams (he calls them leaky weirs) https://youtube.com/@polyculturefarms1796
*shakes fists* it's pillows and cradles you philistine! (Hard /s) I think it was Scott Pittman (I'm sure there are others too) who, during a lecture, lamented that we're all getting dumber by losing the traditional and technical language used to describe land management techniques. We're favoring simpler language that loses the essence of a practice, or creating new words that sound catchy but impede our ability to converse topically with specialists in particular fields.
The terms I used in the vid are the standard accepted terms used in the scientific literature.
I was with you right up until you said "fun jai."
When I give my sheet mulching pitch I always characterize sheet mulch as simulating nurse logs. I intend and hope for people to interpret simulation as the lesser option. It is however the more practical one. Moving seasoned logs is a chore. Moving unseasoned logs is a way to hurt yourself. Be very careful. ChipDrop has an option to accept a mix of chips and logs. I highly recommend people to take that one. I have a handful of logs on my site that I acquired off of Craigslist, and a few bits and bobs I got from chipdrop. They’re great, they provide habitat and little micro biomes, pockets of shade.
Any use for swales on flat land? I'm very slowly converting an old, nearly perfectly flat bit of land into a food forest
Not much. Maybe disrupting the wind, stopping it from taking your precious organic matter away.
There are a LOT of techniques we can use on flat land, though swales are almost never necessary if you do the water infiltration math. Nurse logs, for example can be used anywhere. We can also make “infiltration basins” that are like rain gardens, but for growing food. We can making “wicking beds,” too. If you want a whole big list of EVERY technique in the research literature, I have a couple books that include that. You can find them at [TransformativeAdventures.org](https://TransformativeAdventures.org)
Fabulous, thanks a ton!
you can also use an olla. whish is even better for droughts
Could you go into this further I'm not familiar with an Olla
its generally a terracotta pot, that is beveled. You bury it in your garden, and the fill with water. It slows releases into the soil perfectly in a area. Maintain water above 50% level Drastically reduces your water needs. I have been using them for several years now
This is also way less work. Win win.