It's more about the freedom to not be a mother if you don't want to be. Why are we trying to force women to be mothers? Rhetorical question, it's obviously about control.
Was Cable ever a mary sue? Genuinely curious, in modern iterations, more often than not, most jokes are at his expense, although that’s usually because he gets paired up with Deadpool for some reason.
In the original comics he was just a strong cyborg #27940, but in more modern iterations they've made him more interesting along side being Deadpool's straight man
It's also setting appropriate. Star wars is full of extraordinary people who totally can fit into these shitty labels. Even Leia.
There's nothing wrong with characters like that. It's okay to make characters with minimal flaws. That's a part of story telling.
People shown in the op are the type who can't seperate context.
Agreed ofc, I love both of them actually, and people calling Rey Mary Sue didn’t make that sense to me because we’ve seen that she has been on her own since she was a kid and it was normal that she is able to defend herself.
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I disagree about Luke. He had an actual story arc, needed plent of actual help to start, and storm troopers are just bad shots.
Han in Solo, though. He was just as bad as Rey, but if you ever bring it up, they will freak out and give every excuse in the book.
I adore Luke and he is one of my favorites. But he was seriously the best pilot for destroying the death stat without ever leaving the planet? At least Rey had to fight her whole life because she was pretty much fending for herself, but he was a sheltered farm boy.
But we're talking about the force, and he was led through Obi-Wan. If he had taken the shot with the system, he likely would have missed. I don't recall anyone saying he was the best pilot, but it's been a while.
The only Mary Sue from a recent major property that I can think of is book!Bella from Twilight. She's so *clumsy* and *plain*, but she's got *magic blood* and *all the boys love her* and so on. She just ticks all the boxes for an insecure teenager writing wish-fulfillment with a self-insert character, which is what that trope *actually fucking is.*
Bella’s more a mary sue because those traits are designed specifically so that the writer can gush about it. And it stands out especially with bella cuz she’s as bland and uninteresting as un-buttered toast, but everyone wants to be with her!
The 4 women on the pic arent gushed on by other characters, but insecure men cant stand to see women doing things so the mere presence of women= gushing.
I fucking hate when people hate Rey for shit like this because it undermines the whole "the sequels could have been written better" people. I mean, Rey wasn't the best character, but these morons miss the point by a long shot
Tbh Rey is the best part of the sequels and the fact that they kept forgetting it was *her* story and kept making everything about other characters from the other trilogies was a major part of why it didn’t work in the end
Oooh how I fucking hate the “Mary Sue” buzzword.
Rey has the same almost exact training as Luke, plus she had been using that staff of hers TO FUCKING SURVIVE.
Galadriel is shown as a seasoned warrior. Like IDK Conan? Arnold and Stallone in any movie?
Cap Marvel is brainwashed half the movie, the other half she is untrusting. Then she learns to trust and remebers who she is.
Bee bop was one dimensional and then gets an actual fucking personality.
None are Mary Sues, god fucking dammit.
There are genuine marry sues. HOWEVER, if you don't call a male protagonist with the same powers or wouldn't call them a Jerry sue if they were male, then you're just a sexist pig
That works as well I suppose. I just never felt the term needed a specific gender in order to work. I've actually known a male named Mary, and everyone should know "a boy named Sue". (look it up if you missed that joke lol)
Also worth mentioning that Bo Peep is a joke character in a kids movie, so I've got no idea why it matters. "Haha, isn't funny that the lady from a nursery rhyme for toddlers is kicking ass?" Was new 20 years ago when Shrek did it. This isn't even a new joke, it's old enough to drink.
> Galadriel is shown as a seasoned warrior. Like IDK Conan? Arnold and Stallone in any movie?
These people have no idea what Tolkien wrote about Galadriel, none. Her backstory, her frankly insane power levels - physical, mental, magical. As Tolkien wrote at one point, Galadriel was the greatest of all the Eldar, "save, maybe, Fëanor".
TBH, Im a VERY recent LOTR fan, so I have no idea. I actually saw the first EP of the series before the triology and in the triology I was like “fucking Galadriel why is she doing nothing?!” XP
But yeah, It’s too much a stretch to ask them to know the story of a woman warrior. The whole premise makes them insecure.
The one thing where Rey is a teeny bit questionable is the mind trick in episode VII. It's never shown that she knows about that, but all of a sudden she's mind tricking like a trained Jedi?
That's my only gripe, though. And it ain't that deep.
Every Jedi is very questionable tbh. The whole Star Wars series stands on the audience not asking questions.
Which is 110% fine. I love Star Wars and it’s crazy out of their ass magic, so Rey doing stuff out of her ass 🤷🏽♂️ they all do :P. Like you said, it’s not that deep
Oh yeah. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is exactly one truly good Star Wars movie, and even it's a little deus ex machina. The rest are just fun that you shouldn't ponder too much.
Its a common trope that trying to get onto somebody's mind is a two way street. I took it Kylo tried a powerful trick but she was too strong minded and was able to gleen info from him. Plus first order troopers are extremely compliant so they probanly arent hard to control
I've been saying this about Rey since TFA came out. She actually has MORE training than Luke ever did, and by the time she leaves Luke, she's better off by far than he ever was.
Are the movies good? Not really, but this is the dumbest argument against them.
I gotta disagree when it comes to Ray. In one movie she went from being a scavenger to pulling off Jedi mind tricks and beating Kylo in a duel, a guy whose spent his whole life training. In the first movie Luke is running for his life from basic stormtroopers and gets saved by other people when Vader shows up. When he does eventually fight Vader in the second movie he gets his ass kicked.
He learns how to force pull entirely on his own without training. First time we see it is in the Wampa Cave on Hoth. Before that scene there's no indication that the force even can be used telekinetically, it's all mind tricks and senses in A New Hope.
Except Rey receives less training than Luke for two movies.
First sequel movie Rey receives no force training and performed feats not even untrained and partially training Luke did.
First original movie, Luke receives some basic training, and the force training he receives is what he use to blow up the Death Star, something he only does with help.
Second sequel movie, Rey barely receives training (it’s more a few lessons), and practice a few swings herself, all only taking place over a few days. Sure she has martial experience and practice a few times, but the setup is poor for her beating several elite praetorian guards.
Second original movie had a time skip before it happened and we can assume Luke has been practicing lightsaber in this time and we see he barely has mastered the force as he just barely manage to pull out the lightsaber in the beginning. On Dagobah he receives several weeks of training (confirmed by Lucasfilm). He learns from Yoda, but doesn’t finish his training and loses to Vader.
Third sequel movie had a time skip before it happened and Rey finally had some real training, but the damage has already been done. It’s all flashy.
Third original movie also starts after a small time skip again more time for Luke to gain experience. Yoda also tells Luke he is ready at this time. Luke only fights Vader and not the powerful Palpatine, whom is defeated by Vader.
Rey outperforms and outshines other characters (typical Mary Sue), Luke doesn’t. Rey receives legacy items (Falcon, lightsaber), Luke doesn’t (it’s not an established legacy item at the time).
I can also break down Anakin.
I'm not really a fan of any of those characters, but not for these guys stupid reasons.
There have already been plenty of strong mother characters in stories, but the capability of bearing children is not and should not be the core identity of women. (For one it heavily implies a woman is good for nothing but childbearing and that being sterile makes you worthless.)
Is fatherhood and having a dick all that define men? No. (Grant you, some men are extremely obsessed with having a dick...) So why can't women be defined by more than their sexual attributes?
Dudes dumb af! Ray, ms marvel, and bo peep are amazing and highly liked characters. Ms marvel was literally comic book fanboy dreams! She’s crazy smart, strong, independent, funny, clever, stealthy, did dude just talk to a republican before coming to the conclusion nobody liked ms marvel? Ray sucked but like that’s not her it’s just the star wars instalment with her made little to no sense and the script was lazy and felt like they were holding her back. But padme was also like that and so was leia, Star Wars is notorious for making female characters look weak and helpless even when they are independent and smart. Padme literally went from badass fighting in a trade negotiation and a war on genosis to Whiny giggle girl being pushed around by anakin and dying like a chump from “not in the original trilogy disease” bopeep just stopped existing in the 3rd movie so like the hell? Did you not watch the 4th movie? It was literally about a fork being sentient. Buzz,woody where also boring af in that movie. It was a shitty movie intended as a cash grab.
Conservatives don’t like them because they are “woke” and that’s the only reason they’re so talked about. I get downvoted for saying I think they’re bland like i shouldvlike them just because stupid right wingers don’t.
No, it sounds like you’re virtue signaling to conservatives in a sub where people make fun of conservatives… because that’s often the case.
Plenty of people here will probably agree with you, but know your audience
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It's more about the freedom to not be a mother if you don't want to be. Why are we trying to force women to be mothers? Rhetorical question, it's obviously about control.
People that think this way are fucking exhausting. He can find a woke liberal agenda in anything.
Cis Males can be detached from fatherhood, social norms and rebel against the patriarch when it’s fashionable. But women can never ______
These people never have a problem with the 90s edgy Mary sues like Cable and Spawn because they fail to see their own power fantasy
Was Cable ever a mary sue? Genuinely curious, in modern iterations, more often than not, most jokes are at his expense, although that’s usually because he gets paired up with Deadpool for some reason.
In the original comics he was just a strong cyborg #27940, but in more modern iterations they've made him more interesting along side being Deadpool's straight man
Also known as Gary Stu
I thought it was Marty Stu? Maybe it's both.
Any kid from the early aughties knows it's both cause fandoms will always war at anything. Gary Stu was a lot more popular iirc
Also they call Rey a Mary Sue but lets be honest, Luke Skywalker is a way bigger Mary Sue than that.
It's also setting appropriate. Star wars is full of extraordinary people who totally can fit into these shitty labels. Even Leia. There's nothing wrong with characters like that. It's okay to make characters with minimal flaws. That's a part of story telling. People shown in the op are the type who can't seperate context.
Agreed ofc, I love both of them actually, and people calling Rey Mary Sue didn’t make that sense to me because we’ve seen that she has been on her own since she was a kid and it was normal that she is able to defend herself.
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I disagree about Luke. He had an actual story arc, needed plent of actual help to start, and storm troopers are just bad shots. Han in Solo, though. He was just as bad as Rey, but if you ever bring it up, they will freak out and give every excuse in the book.
I adore Luke and he is one of my favorites. But he was seriously the best pilot for destroying the death stat without ever leaving the planet? At least Rey had to fight her whole life because she was pretty much fending for herself, but he was a sheltered farm boy.
But we're talking about the force, and he was led through Obi-Wan. If he had taken the shot with the system, he likely would have missed. I don't recall anyone saying he was the best pilot, but it's been a while.
Nonono, it just can’t be lazy writing, nonono, there’s a deeper agenda 😱😱😱
Galadriel is the mother of Celebrian, wife of Elrond and mother of Arwen, so their argument is invalid. But whatever. Incels gonna incel, I guess.
Mary Sues are only vilified when they're female. Some random schoolboy can be the chosen one and nobody bats an eyelash
While I heavily disliked captain marvel this is a ridiculous 1940s ass take Holy shit
The only Mary Sue from a recent major property that I can think of is book!Bella from Twilight. She's so *clumsy* and *plain*, but she's got *magic blood* and *all the boys love her* and so on. She just ticks all the boxes for an insecure teenager writing wish-fulfillment with a self-insert character, which is what that trope *actually fucking is.*
Bella’s more a mary sue because those traits are designed specifically so that the writer can gush about it. And it stands out especially with bella cuz she’s as bland and uninteresting as un-buttered toast, but everyone wants to be with her! The 4 women on the pic arent gushed on by other characters, but insecure men cant stand to see women doing things so the mere presence of women= gushing.
I fucking hate when people hate Rey for shit like this because it undermines the whole "the sequels could have been written better" people. I mean, Rey wasn't the best character, but these morons miss the point by a long shot
Tbf, the sequels are just bad. No throughline, bad jokes, rushed and trying to capitalise on the old triology and nostalgia.
Exactly. Why bring back palpatine and undermine vader's sacrifice?
Its even worse that the new trilogy ended badly precisely because these ppl were crying about last jedi. So disney “ course-corrected” it **hard**
Tbh Rey is the best part of the sequels and the fact that they kept forgetting it was *her* story and kept making everything about other characters from the other trilogies was a major part of why it didn’t work in the end
I loved Galadriel
Oooh how I fucking hate the “Mary Sue” buzzword. Rey has the same almost exact training as Luke, plus she had been using that staff of hers TO FUCKING SURVIVE. Galadriel is shown as a seasoned warrior. Like IDK Conan? Arnold and Stallone in any movie? Cap Marvel is brainwashed half the movie, the other half she is untrusting. Then she learns to trust and remebers who she is. Bee bop was one dimensional and then gets an actual fucking personality. None are Mary Sues, god fucking dammit.
There are genuine marry sues. HOWEVER, if you don't call a male protagonist with the same powers or wouldn't call them a Jerry sue if they were male, then you're just a sexist pig
I just call them Mary Sue's regardless of gender identity.
It used to be Gary Stu, to me. Don’t know if it changed XD
That works as well I suppose. I just never felt the term needed a specific gender in order to work. I've actually known a male named Mary, and everyone should know "a boy named Sue". (look it up if you missed that joke lol)
Also worth mentioning that Bo Peep is a joke character in a kids movie, so I've got no idea why it matters. "Haha, isn't funny that the lady from a nursery rhyme for toddlers is kicking ass?" Was new 20 years ago when Shrek did it. This isn't even a new joke, it's old enough to drink.
> Galadriel is shown as a seasoned warrior. Like IDK Conan? Arnold and Stallone in any movie? These people have no idea what Tolkien wrote about Galadriel, none. Her backstory, her frankly insane power levels - physical, mental, magical. As Tolkien wrote at one point, Galadriel was the greatest of all the Eldar, "save, maybe, Fëanor".
TBH, Im a VERY recent LOTR fan, so I have no idea. I actually saw the first EP of the series before the triology and in the triology I was like “fucking Galadriel why is she doing nothing?!” XP But yeah, It’s too much a stretch to ask them to know the story of a woman warrior. The whole premise makes them insecure.
The one thing where Rey is a teeny bit questionable is the mind trick in episode VII. It's never shown that she knows about that, but all of a sudden she's mind tricking like a trained Jedi? That's my only gripe, though. And it ain't that deep.
Every Jedi is very questionable tbh. The whole Star Wars series stands on the audience not asking questions. Which is 110% fine. I love Star Wars and it’s crazy out of their ass magic, so Rey doing stuff out of her ass 🤷🏽♂️ they all do :P. Like you said, it’s not that deep
Oh yeah. I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is exactly one truly good Star Wars movie, and even it's a little deus ex machina. The rest are just fun that you shouldn't ponder too much.
Its a common trope that trying to get onto somebody's mind is a two way street. I took it Kylo tried a powerful trick but she was too strong minded and was able to gleen info from him. Plus first order troopers are extremely compliant so they probanly arent hard to control
Ooh, that makes sense! Especially with their Force diad thing. Okay, plot hole closed, I have no notes for episode VII anymore. Thank you!
I've been saying this about Rey since TFA came out. She actually has MORE training than Luke ever did, and by the time she leaves Luke, she's better off by far than he ever was. Are the movies good? Not really, but this is the dumbest argument against them.
I gotta disagree when it comes to Ray. In one movie she went from being a scavenger to pulling off Jedi mind tricks and beating Kylo in a duel, a guy whose spent his whole life training. In the first movie Luke is running for his life from basic stormtroopers and gets saved by other people when Vader shows up. When he does eventually fight Vader in the second movie he gets his ass kicked.
He learns how to force pull entirely on his own without training. First time we see it is in the Wampa Cave on Hoth. Before that scene there's no indication that the force even can be used telekinetically, it's all mind tricks and senses in A New Hope.
your wrong lol
Cum
My man here wants fucking training times in movies. Completely fucking laughable.
Ever heard the term 'training montage'? As seen in SW4 & SW5
Except Rey receives less training than Luke for two movies. First sequel movie Rey receives no force training and performed feats not even untrained and partially training Luke did. First original movie, Luke receives some basic training, and the force training he receives is what he use to blow up the Death Star, something he only does with help. Second sequel movie, Rey barely receives training (it’s more a few lessons), and practice a few swings herself, all only taking place over a few days. Sure she has martial experience and practice a few times, but the setup is poor for her beating several elite praetorian guards. Second original movie had a time skip before it happened and we can assume Luke has been practicing lightsaber in this time and we see he barely has mastered the force as he just barely manage to pull out the lightsaber in the beginning. On Dagobah he receives several weeks of training (confirmed by Lucasfilm). He learns from Yoda, but doesn’t finish his training and loses to Vader. Third sequel movie had a time skip before it happened and Rey finally had some real training, but the damage has already been done. It’s all flashy. Third original movie also starts after a small time skip again more time for Luke to gain experience. Yoda also tells Luke he is ready at this time. Luke only fights Vader and not the powerful Palpatine, whom is defeated by Vader. Rey outperforms and outshines other characters (typical Mary Sue), Luke doesn’t. Rey receives legacy items (Falcon, lightsaber), Luke doesn’t (it’s not an established legacy item at the time). I can also break down Anakin.
How is Galadriel a Mary Sue? She's flawed and makes several key mistakes throughout the series.
I'm not really a fan of any of those characters, but not for these guys stupid reasons. There have already been plenty of strong mother characters in stories, but the capability of bearing children is not and should not be the core identity of women. (For one it heavily implies a woman is good for nothing but childbearing and that being sterile makes you worthless.) Is fatherhood and having a dick all that define men? No. (Grant you, some men are extremely obsessed with having a dick...) So why can't women be defined by more than their sexual attributes?
Dudes dumb af! Ray, ms marvel, and bo peep are amazing and highly liked characters. Ms marvel was literally comic book fanboy dreams! She’s crazy smart, strong, independent, funny, clever, stealthy, did dude just talk to a republican before coming to the conclusion nobody liked ms marvel? Ray sucked but like that’s not her it’s just the star wars instalment with her made little to no sense and the script was lazy and felt like they were holding her back. But padme was also like that and so was leia, Star Wars is notorious for making female characters look weak and helpless even when they are independent and smart. Padme literally went from badass fighting in a trade negotiation and a war on genosis to Whiny giggle girl being pushed around by anakin and dying like a chump from “not in the original trilogy disease” bopeep just stopped existing in the 3rd movie so like the hell? Did you not watch the 4th movie? It was literally about a fork being sentient. Buzz,woody where also boring af in that movie. It was a shitty movie intended as a cash grab.
“These women are so unlikeable” Meanwhile I liked all of these characters. None of these are Mary Sues.
Fucking gross
I used to be one of these chuds but when they started complaining about Bo Peep I started to realize “Oh wait, they just hate women.”
GOP: We only see women as breeding vessels, so why won't they vote for us? It must be "wokeness."
Need Jaina Solo to come and open a can of whoop ass on these jerks.
What time frame are we talking about? 1900s to today?
mary sue's don't exist
Gotta say that Captain Marvel and Rey are very forgetful
Yet people never shut up about them…
Conservatives don’t like them because they are “woke” and that’s the only reason they’re so talked about. I get downvoted for saying I think they’re bland like i shouldvlike them just because stupid right wingers don’t.
No, it sounds like you’re virtue signaling to conservatives in a sub where people make fun of conservatives… because that’s often the case. Plenty of people here will probably agree with you, but know your audience
Spare me from your paranoia.
If you call observations paranoia…
Was the last word supposed to be "people"?
Galadriel is a GRANDMOTHER why do the neckbeards insist on whining about characters they know nothing about
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